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numba1CHANGsta
05-10-2018, 10:54 PM
For anyone who has been following basketball since MJ was with the Bulls, how do you feel about how the NBA has become today? do you like it more? less? what do you miss? thoughts?

Personally I miss the physicality of the NBA back from the 90's/00's, today's NBA is full of cry babies and refs calling fouls for no reason.

BKLYNpigeon
05-10-2018, 11:15 PM
For anyone who has been following basketball since MJ was with the Bulls, how do you feel about how the NBA has become today? do you like it more? less? what do you miss? thoughts?

Personally I miss the physicality of the NBA back from the 90's/00's, today's NBA is full of cry babies and refs calling fouls for no reason.


The NBA has never been better.

I rather not watch bully ball of the 90s when teams scored 70 points. it got so bad the moved the 3 point line a few feet closer so teams could score more. lol.

GREATNESS ONE
05-10-2018, 11:33 PM
90ís/00 all day over this mini man 3ball nonsense.

Chronz
05-11-2018, 12:03 AM
I miss the 1v1 play, back then having 1 star truly made a difference, its just the NBA began spamming the **** out of isolation basketball even though they lacked the skillset of an MJ/Hakeem or the talent of Shaq/Drob. I also think they got rid of illegal defense to shift the game more to the perimeter and then completely away from the average bigman altogether by removing HC completely.

I think you guys overstate the physicality, plenty of touch calls happened back then and how physical can you really be when you have to respect the outside shooting ability of a Dennis Rodman back in those days.

They softened up the rules every decade since the 70's but the positioning of players is what really stifled the 1v1 player, not this physicality bs. Guys like Kobe and Bron never gave a **** about the player in front of them, they were always on look out for guys behind the initial rotation, which is why having a complete offensive game (passing+scoring) is more important than having an arsenal of scoring tricks for todays swings. On the flipside, if you're simply an explosive guard, you dont need any sort of tricks to get past the initial defender, that said, I dont think the game is drastically different towards where a guy like Curry becomes his father in the 90's, his presence prolly sparks the evolution faster.

More-Than-Most
05-11-2018, 12:25 AM
i love defense and in todays game there just isnt enough of it... there will never be a pistons team to upset a lakers team in todays NBA because of the 3. The game is bigger and much much more complex and players are just better now than before while the game is faster.. I love it more now but i miss defense and teams living by the 3 is quite annoying.


Also there isnt a system in todays game where its fixed for teams like the lakers or bulls or so on etc etc.

numba1CHANGsta
05-11-2018, 01:13 AM
This is why MJ will always be the greatest NBA player ever and no one will ever take that title from him because he won 2 3peats in the 90's where there were great defensive teams and great big men. I do feel like history will repeat itself at some point. Today's game reminds me of the 80's with teams trying to be like the Showtime era but teams will start to catch onto that and try to counter those teams by focusing more on defense. I feel like the Celtics and Jazz could be one of those defensive minded teams to come. Teams like GSW/HOU/CLE will fade IMO. Basketball is always evolving so i do see it going back to a more evenly balanced sport where half the teams focus on defense and the other half will focus on running it.

NYKalltheway
05-11-2018, 02:38 AM
For anyone who has been following basketball since MJ was with the Bulls, how do you feel about how the NBA has become today? do you like it more? less? what do you miss? thoughts?

Personally I miss the physicality of the NBA back from the 90's/00's, today's NBA is full of cry babies and refs calling fouls for no reason.

It used to be basketball, now it's something else. But I'll move this to 2004, 2005, not directly when MJ left. It was already becoming 'easier' in the late 90s but they put a halt to it, then decided to remove the handbrake altogether and the result is this guard driving frenzy and in game three point shooting contest.

I'd put more blame to the rise of Allen Iverson and Vince Carter (not their fault, they were great during their time) because that's what fans wanted to see. So the NBA decides to go towards that direction and instead of merit talent of that calibre, they dumbed down the game so that everyone could be AI or VC. Then they started shooting from everywhere after 8-10 seconds. The NBA clearly wanted a new face since Larry Bird and Magic retired and Jordan's run came to an end and they did everything in their power to maximize that cash cow by inventing new superstars and giving them too many in game perks like forgetting what basketball rules are when it comes to them.

Cal827
05-11-2018, 04:04 AM
i love defense and in todays game there just isnt enough of it... there will never be a pistons team to upset a lakers team in todays NBA because of the 3. The game is bigger and much much more complex and players are just better now than before while the game is faster.. I love it more now but i miss defense and teams living by the 3 is quite annoying.


Also there isnt a system in todays game where its fixed for teams like the lakers or bulls or so on etc etc.

Ditto, I used to love watching those defensive battles where a team would win 85-81 or something like that. I remember when a team scoring 100 points in a game was seldom... Nowadays, you can play great defense in a game, but still end up giving up 100+ points regularly with the increase in range (teams usually now have at least one guy camped out to shoot 3s) and the increased frequency for refs to call fouls on jump shooters. It's used to be a brutal mistake to foul a 3 point shooter; now it's basically given that there will be 2 or 3 of those in a game :laugh2:

You also can't be too tough in the paint without drawing a technical or flagrant. Teams used to be rugged in the post. Do that today and someone's getting ejected.

But I guess it is what it is. The game has evolved into what it is today, and there are also many amazing things today on the court (at least with some of the offensive outputs)... but in those rare instances where we have a very low scoring game and neither team is giving on on the defensive end, I just sit back and enjoy what I grew up watching :laugh2:

bklynny67
05-11-2018, 05:52 AM
Nba today sucks. I don't know how anyone who watched both eras could think otherwise, and I was young during the 90s. I feel like the young kids today think today's game is so great cuz they don't know any better, but boy does it suck balls compared to the 90s and early 2000s

ewing
05-11-2018, 06:09 AM
More highlights, less competition

blams
05-11-2018, 08:50 AM
For anyone who has been following basketball since MJ was with the Bulls, how do you feel about how the NBA has become today? do you like it more? less? what do you miss? thoughts?

Personally I miss the physicality of the NBA back from the 90's/00's, today's NBA is full of cry babies and refs calling fouls for no reason.It's a higher quality game with more versatile, talented players across the board now.

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ewing
05-11-2018, 09:23 AM
its more complicated?

WaDe03
05-11-2018, 09:24 AM
It's a higher quality game with more versatile, talented players across the board now.

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This. Thereís more talent now then thereís ever been.

effen5
05-11-2018, 10:56 AM
This. Thereís more talent now then thereís ever been.

Disagreed, and even if that was the case, the talent are on like 5 teams in the league. That's awful for the league.

WaDe03
05-11-2018, 01:04 PM
Disagreed, and even if that was the case, the talent are on like 5 teams in the league. That's awful for the league.

Top to bottom thereís more talent not just the top. Players are more skilled and better physically now than ever.

ManRam
05-11-2018, 01:09 PM
the talent are on like 5 teams in the league.

Which is nothing new.

SteBO
05-11-2018, 01:14 PM
Iím actually shocking myself here, but Iím not sure I like the league better now compared to say, the late 90s, early 2000s. Hell, I liked the league better earlier this decade, because at least then the traditional center mattered & more leeway was given to defensive players.

I do miss the physicality of the late 90s, but I also enjoy the skill level of todayís NBA players. I would like the two to merge together someday and thatíll involve laxing some rules I think.

effen5
05-11-2018, 01:22 PM
Which is nothing new.

At least in the 90s, the talent was spread out throughout the league, Eastern and Western Conferences.

East has like 2 teams, and rest is garbage.

FlashBolt
05-11-2018, 01:57 PM
The-State-Of-The-NBA-Since-LBJ-Is-Better-Than-Kobe

JordansBulls
05-11-2018, 06:57 PM
This. Thereís more talent now then thereís ever been.

Disagree! You had teams with actual legit superstars who had trouble winning 50 games in the 90's. In this era you have fake stars who can get to nearly 60 wins. You had one year where two teams won 67+ games and one team it happened when Tim Duncan wasn't even in his prime.

Jeffy25
05-11-2018, 07:04 PM
If you think the talent is worse today than 20 years ago you are fooling yourself.

It's better in every pro sport.

Every single decade, the talent takes leaps forward with improved nutrition, training, and coaching.

The league is significantly more talented than it was 10 years ago, and will be significantly more talented 10 years from now than it is today.

Of course it's way better than it was in the 90's. You may not like the style of the game, but no doubt about it that the talent is way better.

ODB13
05-11-2018, 07:21 PM
If you think the talent is worse today than 20 years ago you are fooling yourself.

It's better in every pro sport.

Every single decade, the talent takes leaps forward with improved nutrition, training, and coaching.

The league is significantly more talented than it was 10 years ago, and will be significantly more talented 10 years from now than it is today.

Of course it's way better than it was in the 90's. You may not like the style of the game, but no doubt about it that the talent is way better.

In your opinion, the 90s Knicks are equivalent to a "second round exit squad" of today, while most others think of them as one of the best teams to never win a title.

Why would anyone take your opinion seriously on this particular topic??

JordansBulls
05-11-2018, 07:22 PM
If you think the talent is worse today than 20 years ago you are fooling yourself.

It's better in every pro sport.

Every single decade, the talent takes leaps forward with improved nutrition, training, and coaching.

The league is significantly more talented than it was 10 years ago, and will be significantly more talented 10 years from now than it is today.

Of course it's way better than it was in the 90's. You may not like the style of the game, but no doubt about it that the talent is way better.

No it is not, not even close. All of those in the 90's would beat the Warriors. The 2015-2017 Warriors are like the Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin Warriors and they only won 44 games in a much more difficult era. In this era you have role player teams leading teams to 60+ wins yearly. That is the difference.

ODB13
05-11-2018, 07:28 PM
No it is not, not even close. All of those in the 90's would beat the Warriors. The 2015-2017 Warriors are like the Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin Warriors and they only won 44 games in a much more difficult era. In this era you have role player teams leading teams to 60+ wins yearly. That is the difference.

The Warriors are as dominant in relation to their era as the Bulls were to theirs, perhaps even more. But I agree. If you put this Warriors team in the 90s with 90s rules and 90s style, and they are going to get pummeled physically.

Heediot
05-11-2018, 07:37 PM
The NBA has never been better.

I rather not watch bully ball of the 90s when teams scored 70 points. it got so bad the moved the 3 point line a few feet closer so teams could score more. lol.

Personally I prefer watching college and euroleague ball. I wanna see people earn their points and true skill and or coaching rewarded.

Heediot
05-11-2018, 07:45 PM
Which is nothing new.

Disagree. Allocation of Max contracts allows teams and players to manipulate the system and create super teams. With no max contracts it was harder to create a super team via free agency. There was the rare instance where one could be created via trades and solid drafting. No other time in history can a guy like LeBron manipulate the system and create/join a super team 3 times within a decade or so (including his next destination).

Heediot
05-11-2018, 08:02 PM
I miss the 1v1 play, back then having 1 star truly made a difference, its just the NBA began spamming the **** out of isolation basketball even though they lacked the skillset of an MJ/Hakeem or the talent of Shaq/Drob. I also think they got rid of illegal defense to shift the game more to the perimeter and then completely away from the average bigman altogether by removing HC completely.

I think you guys overstate the physicality, plenty of touch calls happened back then and how physical can you really be when you have to respect the outside shooting ability of a Dennis Rodman back in those days.

They softened up the rules every decade since the 70's but the positioning of players is what really stifled the 1v1 player, not this physicality bs. Guys like Kobe and Bron never gave a **** about the player in front of them, they were always on look out for guys behind the initial rotation, which is why having a complete offensive game (passing+scoring) is more important than having an arsenal of scoring tricks for todays swings. On the flipside, if you're simply an explosive guard, you dont need any sort of tricks to get past the initial defender, that said, I dont think the game is drastically different towards where a guy like Curry becomes his father in the 90's, his presence prolly sparks the evolution faster.

I think allowing true zones, where the big man can camp in the paint will help lower the scoring. It also gives coaches more ways to scheme defensively and hide players defensively.

europagnpilgrim
05-11-2018, 09:01 PM
The NBA has never been better.

I rather not watch bully ball of the 90s when teams scored 70 points. it got so bad the moved the 3 point line a few feet closer so teams could score more. lol.

Exactly, I would love to have the ruff ryders of Oakley / Mason etc. on multiple teams, just not a whole team and 1 scorer of those styles

just like todays version of those players are Green / Smart / Tucker and its good those are spread out on diff. teams

regular season more finesse / scoring, playoff time more bully ball with the scoring, by bully ball I just mean let the players have more say in the outcome and reward them for the good defense because I have seen way too many times players get bailed out from foul calls when the off. player outright initiated the contact

I think they moved the line in to bring back the art form of the 3 shot because it was plenty of players in the 90's and early 00's who could knock down 3's but the game was way way more post play / mid range game

its still that way just the 3 shot has surpassed the mid range, which has a wide gap on post play, but they are still all 3 there and will be until the game cease to exist, as above so below

europagnpilgrim
05-11-2018, 09:10 PM
If you think the talent is worse today than 20 years ago you are fooling yourself.

It's better in every pro sport.

Every single decade, the talent takes leaps forward with improved nutrition, training, and coaching.

The league is significantly more talented than it was 10 years ago, and will be significantly more talented 10 years from now than it is today.

Of course it's way better than it was in the 90's. You may not like the style of the game, but no doubt about it that the talent is way better.

The pool of talent is more spread, but there is not a single athlete / talent to ever step foot on the hardwood a better athlete / talent that Wilt and B Russell wasn't too far behind, and Wilt played in the 60's

Wilt was benching 350lbs at around 13yrs of age so his nutrition / training must of been something out of a Hollywood movie script because that was done in the 50's by Wilt

I don't think the league will be significantly more talented in 10yrs, these drafts are whats killing the league and these jump shooting big euro players, the league is on its last leg of weening on the 03' draft and having few superstars in between, other than that the talent from 84 / 96 / 03' drafts were the cream of the crop as far as talent, its nothing like that anymore

the style of the game is lovely because of the high scoring, the same scoring that the Wilt / Russell era got killed for having the 'weakest' talent, now I guess todays nba is a mirror image reflection so its a 'weak' era today

more athletes but I feel the 90's and early 00's were better skilled and had way way way more heart / passion / fire / love for the actual nba game and not a brand that doesn't even mean nothing if they knew the true actual value of self

which is un - limited / innate credit

ewing
05-11-2018, 09:55 PM
Exactly, I would love to have the ruff ryders of Oakley / Mason etc. on multiple teams, just not a whole team and 1 scorer of those styles

just like todays version of those players are Green / Smart / Tucker and its good those are spread out on diff. teams

regular season more finesse / scoring, playoff time more bully ball with the scoring, by bully ball I just mean let the players have more say in the outcome and reward them for the good defense because I have seen way too many times players get bailed out from foul calls when the off. player outright initiated the contact

I think they moved the line in to bring back the art form of the 3 shot because it was plenty of players in the 90's and early 00's who could knock down 3's but the game was way way more post play / mid range game

its still that way just the 3 shot has surpassed the mid range, which has a wide gap on post play, but they are still all 3 there and will be until the game cease to exist, as above so below

Wilt was weak and filled with gluten


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ODB13
05-12-2018, 12:01 AM
To say the athletes are better now is preposterous, and also pure conjecture.

If anything, the difference in the leagues is the diminished athleticism of the bigs.

Can you imagine what Hakeem would be doing in this league? DRob? ****, even Mutumbo.

More-Than-Most
05-12-2018, 12:16 AM
If you think the talent is worse today than 20 years ago you are fooling yourself.

It's better in every pro sport.

Every single decade, the talent takes leaps forward with improved nutrition, training, and coaching.

The league is significantly more talented than it was 10 years ago, and will be significantly more talented 10 years from now than it is today.

Of course it's way better than it was in the 90's. You may not like the style of the game, but no doubt about it that the talent is way better.

This. The only ones screaming it was better are those that hate change plus have like the MJ bias.

Chronz
05-12-2018, 10:12 AM
The Warriors are as dominant in relation to their era as the Bulls were to theirs, perhaps even more. But I agree. If you put this Warriors team in the 90s with 90s rules and 90s style, and they are going to get pummeled physically.
Lol, good luck stopping kd without zones

Chronz
05-12-2018, 10:18 AM
I think allowing true zones, where the big man can camp in the paint will help lower the scoring. It also gives coaches more ways to scheme defensively and hide players defensively.
That just leads to more 3s tho. I say they bring back handcheck, remove the zone so that bigs become focal points again

Heediot
05-12-2018, 12:39 PM
That just leads to more 3s tho. I say they bring back handcheck, remove the zone so that bigs become focal points again

It will offset the advantages ball handlers have on the pnr and manipulating the defense. In the euroleague, there are just as much sharp shooters and a closer 3 point line but teams score on average 80 ppg in 40 minutes so about less then 100 per 48. I think even the highest scoring teams only rival the lower scoring teams in the nba. The dynamics change a tonne, probably more so in the post season when things players key in and try harder. You don't have to go full zone, but you play in a way where you can have a body that can defend the rim more often then not. No one really plays zone, but they play a small semi zone to help the bigs. Just allowing the bigs that advantage really helps. The switches and defensive schemes in europe are precise and advanced too. That's why pops brings in euro coaches all the time and steals their ideas.

To add, I think college abolished the hand check and teams are still struggling to score. But there are less sharp shooters for most teams and beating a zone is a chore for most teams though. That's different vs. pro leagues. Bring back the hand check and allow true zones. Sure bigs might not put up numbers like the 90's for back to the back players, but a good big can help counter and offset good defensive teams who can defend the three well. Teams have to be more versatile if certain rules are applied. A good big can still suck in a defense down low and create different looks the defense has to respect even if he has to kick it out because of double teams.

I think adding both the hand check and true zones, will show players' true colors and skills. Big will be mitigated statistically offensively. But the respect and attention they command can still be impactful.

ewing
05-12-2018, 01:00 PM
Lol, good luck stopping kd without zones

Heíd get nothing in the paint outside of transition and shoot over people same as he does now


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FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 01:10 PM
KD would dominate the 90's. Are you guys even serious? He'd eat up every ISO play and no one would be able to guard him. If you thought Nique could drop 30, what do you think KD drops against that kind of defense?

Heediot
05-12-2018, 01:17 PM
KD would dominate the 90's. Are you guys even serious? He'd eat up every ISO play and no one would be able to guard him. If you thought Nique could drop 30, what do you think KD drops against that kind of defense?

I think in the playoffs, he'll get exposed more back then. He already has trouble with guys up in his grill. His handles aren't that clean and he knows how to take advantage of the hand check rules now in the regular season so he knows how to create space and play off his 3 point shot. If teams can key on him more like they did in OKC his efficiency takes solid hit. He'll still get 25 but on even worse efficiency vs. his okc days, depending on his team. If he's on a stacked team like gs, his efficiency will be helped.

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 02:01 PM
I think in the playoffs, he'll get exposed more back then. He already has trouble with guys up in his grill. His handles aren't that clean and he knows how to take advantage of the hand check rules now in the regular season so he knows how to create space and play off his 3 point shot. If teams can key on him more like they did in OKC his efficiency takes solid hit. He'll still get 25 but on even worse efficiency vs. his okc days, depending on his team. If he's on a stacked team like gs, his efficiency will be helped.

1) His handles are absolutely clean. You can't name many players his size with those handles. He'd punish defenders for sticking him the way they used to.

2) No, he doesn't. There is no recipe or strategy to stop KD or even make it difficult. If there is one, please show me it. KD will get his against anyone. I watched the guy score effortlessly for over 7 years. He's the greatest scorer I've seen.

3) MJ said zone would've changed his career. Perimeter players thrive off single coverage. Hand-checking will affect KD but once he gets past his defender, it's too late to stop him.

4) Which team? Grizzlies? KD struggled vs Grizzlies because they were a top defensive team and he was too young to figure out how to beat them otherwise. That's not particularly a good example. He's been dominant for much of his career and showed little resistance to being "defendable."

5) KD was regarded as a top three NBA player before joining the Warriors. He was neck-and-neck with LeBron in 2013 where I honestly believed KD had a shot at being the best player within a few years. No, it's not just joining the Warriors. KD is a beast and would have dropped 30 easily in any generation of basketball. Pippen won't stop him at all. Seriously, if Nique can drop 30, what the hell do you think stops KD from dropping 30 in his sleep? Nique wasn't half the player KD is.

Heediot
05-12-2018, 02:10 PM
1) His handles are absolutely clean. You can't name many players his size with those handles. He'd punish defenders for sticking him the way they used to.

2) No, he doesn't. There is no recipe or strategy to stop KD or even make it difficult. If there is one, please show me it. KD will get his against anyone. I watched the guy score effortlessly for over 7 years. He's the greatest scorer I've seen.

3) MJ said zone would've changed his career. Perimeter players thrive off single coverage. Hand-checking will affect KD but once he gets past his defender, it's too late to stop him.

4) Which team? Grizzlies? KD struggled vs Grizzlies because they were a top defensive team and he was too young to figure out how to beat them otherwise. That's not particularly a good example. He's been dominant for much of his career and showed little resistance to being "defendable."

5) KD was regarded as a top three NBA player before joining the Warriors. He was neck-and-neck with LeBron in 2013 where I honestly believed KD had a shot at being the best player within a few years. No, it's not just joining the Warriors. KD is a beast and would have dropped 30 easily in any generation of basketball. Pippen won't stop him at all. Seriously, if Nique can drop 30, what the hell do you think stops KD from dropping 30 in his sleep? Nique wasn't half the player KD is.

LOL just look at his efficiency before joining the Warriors (playoff stats), that's all you need to know. Allen wasn't the only guy, I've seen guys like Cp3 give him fits too. I don't think his efficiency is increasing in that other era in the playoffs just my take. Sure he'd still be a top 3 wing player back then, but I'm not buying he'll just dominate everyone as easy as you think, especially in the post-season. It's just rare for wings to maintain their efficiency in the playoffs in any era except for a select rare few, or if your on a super stacked team where it's hard to key in on one guy. The physicality they allow back then in the playoffs is more then they do now as well to boot. The past two years, the league has booted defense even in the playoffs. Teams are scoring 110 or more at the highest rate ever.

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 02:16 PM
LOL just look at his efficiency before joining the Warriors (playoff stats), that's all you need to know. Allen wasn't the only guy, I've seen guys like Cp3 give him fits too. I don't think his efficiency is increasing in that other era in the playoffs just my take. Sure he'd still be a top 3 wing player back then, but I'm not buying he'll just dominate everyone as easy as you think, especially in the post-season.

Lmao, stop it clown. You're making the worst arguments with no factual information.

His TS% is .651 last season (first with Warriors). He's reached that same TS% years ago and has been hitting .635 for many years after that. Your argument that he's taking a huge leap in efficiency is a total lie. Uhm, yes he would dominate. I ask again: If Nique could drop 30, what makes you think KD won't drop 30 in his sleep? You seriously can't answer it because you don't know what you're talking about. Just stop, boy. The 90's have never seen a player like KD. That length, range, and height for a perimeter player was not available that time. KD's constantly compared to George Gervin. George was 6'8. KD is 6'11. KD would feast off single coverage.

Heediot
05-12-2018, 02:19 PM
Lmao, stop it clown. You're making the worst arguments with no factual information.

His TS% is .651 last season (first with Warriors). He's reached that same TS% years ago and has been hitting .635 for many years after that. Your argument that he's taking a huge leap in efficiency is a total lie. Uhm, yes he would dominate. I ask again: If Nique could drop 30, what makes you think KD won't drop 30 in his sleep? You seriously can't answer it because you don't know what you're talking about. Just stop, boy. The 90's have never seen a player like KD. That length, range, and height for a perimeter player was not available that time. KD's constantly compared to George Gervin. George was 6'8. KD is 6'11. KD would feast off single coverage.

Slow down and read, I am talking playoffs. I've never said anything about regular season back in the 90s. Your too rushed to defend kd. I also edited my last post.

Heediot
05-12-2018, 02:21 PM
Lmao, stop it clown. You're making the worst arguments with no factual information.

His TS% is .651 last season (first with Warriors). He's reached that same TS% years ago and has been hitting .635 for many years after that. Your argument that he's taking a huge leap in efficiency is a total lie. Uhm, yes he would dominate. I ask again: If Nique could drop 30, what makes you think KD won't drop 30 in his sleep? You seriously can't answer it because you don't know what you're talking about. Just stop, boy. The 90's have never seen a player like KD. That length, range, and height for a perimeter player was not available that time. KD's constantly compared to George Gervin. George was 6'8. KD is 6'11. KD would feast off single coverage.

Why are you so condescending, its posters like you that make people dislike psd. Sure once in a while i'll insult someone, but you take things too seriously. I don't need to be a tough guy on the net.

Chronz
05-12-2018, 02:21 PM
Heíd get nothing in the paint outside of transition and shoot over people same as he does now


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True, kd already benefits from insane freedom in gs.
I guess bron would benefit more with an attacking mindset and not having to worry about the strongside help till it's too late. Still think kd would benefit from smaller perimeter defenders and doesn't have to rush his pull up knowing the help can't commit

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 02:22 PM
LOL just look at his efficiency before joining the Warriors (playoff stats), that's all you need to know. Allen wasn't the only guy, I've seen guys like Cp3 give him fits too. I don't think his efficiency is increasing in that other era in the playoffs just my take. Sure he'd still be a top 3 wing player back then, but I'm not buying he'll just dominate everyone as easy as you think, especially in the post-season. It's just rare for wings to maintain their efficiency in the playoffs in any era except for a select rare few, or if your on a super stacked team where it's hard to key in on one guy. The physicality they allow back then in the playoffs is more then they do now as well to boot. The past two years, the league has booted defense even in the playoffs. Teams are scoring 110 or more at the highest rate ever.

1) More fouls were called back then. More FT's were shot back then.

2) More points were scored in the 90-2000's than 2007-2017.

3) The reason we're seeing more teams score 110 has nothing to do with whether or not defense is being played. It has to do with how complicated defense has been because the floor is wide open letting more offensive weapons to be had and thus, more defensive and complicated schemes. With teams draining threes, it doesn't take much for a team to pull away and catch a huge lead. Why do you think we're seeing so many comebacks despite huge leads? Because three threes back-to-back-to-back can happen within a single minute and it wouldn't be uncommon.

Your explanation for things are based off favoritism. You have no basis on what you're saying at all.

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 02:24 PM
Slow down and read, I am talking playoffs. I've never said anything about regular season back in the 90s. Your too rushed to defend kd. I also edited my last post.

You edited your post. And it's funny I am even defending KD. The fact I am shows you that I have no reason to lie about my arguments. KD would feast in any generation and be a top three scorer, period.



Why are you so condescending, its posters like you that make people dislike psd. Sure once in a while i'll insult someone, but you take things too seriously. I don't need to be a tough guy on the net.

Because admittedly, you said you're a troll. Did you not? So either type serious or don't troll; simple.

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 02:25 PM
Slow down and read, I am talking playoffs. I've never said anything about regular season back in the 90s. Your too rushed to defend kd. I also edited my last post.

Playoffs efficiency? Sure. Can you remind us all what Jordan's TS% was back in the playoffs vs KD? It seems even when KD had bad years, he's still beating Jordan in TS%. So what exactly are you saying?

ewing
05-12-2018, 02:26 PM
Lmao, stop it clown. You're making the worst arguments with no factual information.

His TS% is .651 last season (first with Warriors). He's reached that same TS% years ago and has been hitting .635 for many years after that. Your argument that he's taking a huge leap in efficiency is a total lie. Uhm, yes he would dominate. I ask again: If Nique could drop 30, what makes you think KD won't drop 30 in his sleep? You seriously can't answer it because you don't know what you're talking about. Just stop, boy. The 90's have never seen a player like KD. That length, range, and height for a perimeter player was not available that time. KD's constantly compared to George Gervin. George was 6'8. KD is 6'11. KD would feast off single coverage.

Nique was much stronger, more athletic, and a better finisher. KD world still be an a big time scorer but your statement that once he got past someone it would be over it actually the opposite of what would happen. Once he got past someone he run into much more traffic in the paint including Gobert type rim protectors. Heíd be unstoppable shooting Js over people just like now but wouldnít get much going to the basket

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Heediot
05-12-2018, 02:30 PM
You edited your post. And it's funny I am even defending KD. The fact I am shows you that I have no reason to lie about my arguments. KD would feast in any generation and be a top three scorer, period.




Because admittedly, you said you're a troll. Did you not? So either type serious or don't troll; simple.

Just chill, post 38 clearly state I am saying post season. KD is too talented of a scorer not to get his in any era regular season, just think it'd be a tad harder in the post-season back then for him.

Heediot
05-12-2018, 02:32 PM
Playoffs efficiency? Sure. Can you remind us all what Jordan's TS% was back in the playoffs vs KD? It seems even when KD had bad years, he's still beating Jordan in TS%. So what exactly are you saying?

I just look at fg and 3 pt pct. His 3 pt pct before gs was pretty pedestrian in the playoffs.

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 02:41 PM
I just look at fg and 3 pt pct. His 3 pt pct before gs was pretty pedestrian in the playoffs.

He's still had seasons where his TS% was higher than Jordan so if he's playing poorly in the playoffs, what does that say about Jordan? I mean, Jordan took 30 shots in one playoff season and averaged over 26 shots in the playoffs during his peak years. I'm not advocating KD over Jordan but KD's got the skills to be every bit of a GOAT scorer in any generation. What puts Jordan above KD IMO is that Jordan had bigger hands, more athletic, and had superior post skills. But KD has superior length, height, and range.

Heediot
05-12-2018, 02:53 PM
He's still had seasons where his TS% was higher than Jordan so if he's playing poorly in the playoffs, what does that say about Jordan? I mean, Jordan took 30 shots in one playoff season and averaged over 26 shots in the playoffs during his peak years. I'm not advocating KD over Jordan but KD's got the skills to be every bit of a GOAT scorer in any generation. What puts Jordan above KD IMO is that Jordan had bigger hands, more athletic, and had superior post skills. But KD has superior length, height, and range.

I'm not an expert with advanced stats and metrics, so I'll give you whatever case your making here. Once in a while I'll look **** up tbh. Mainly for Jokic though as stat geeks just throw all these stuff out about him and I am a fan so I look a little into it. Once in a blue moon I'll look it up for other players/situations if need be.

ewing
05-12-2018, 02:53 PM
He's still had seasons where his TS% was higher than Jordan so if he's playing poorly in the playoffs, what does that say about Jordan? I mean, Jordan took 30 shots in one playoff season and averaged over 26 shots in the playoffs during his peak years. I'm not advocating KD over Jordan but KD's got the skills to be every bit of a GOAT scorer in any generation. What puts Jordan above KD IMO is that Jordan had bigger hands, more athletic, and had superior post skills. But KD has superior length, height, and range.

bc the defensive is better now and itís harder to score?

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FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 03:02 PM
Defense was not better back then. It was tougher and they had more tools to be a pesky defender. The defense today is far more complicated. We've seen every defense the 90's had and have gone through it already. The rules changed the game to where it has allowed offense to open up and thus, defense is more complicated. If you listen to what the 80-90's players would say in regards to defending someone, it's "knock them down" or "throw an elbow." That's not great defense. To say players today are softer is a complete joke. The rules prevent them from retaliating. There is no reason to when the punishment is far greater than the incentive. These guys are making millions of dollars and getting suspended for five games is enough for a Rolls Royce for many of these guys. And when you're not as talented/skilled as the other team, you resort to playing dirty/physical to compensate for it. That's just the truth.

mngopher35
05-12-2018, 03:06 PM
I think the NBA is better with allowing free movement outside the lane for defenses (zone). I think the NBA should allow hand checking with the zones though as well, taking that aspect away was a mistake imo. The league was gonna open up without that move they just didn't realize it yet/value 3's and spacing in the same way once zone was implemented.

These few years are gonna be very boring to me as an NBA fan who likes competition but at least I can make money off it it seems lol. I don't think you can blame anyone for that spike etc. though to create such a drastic gap in the league. Outside of that I think NBA has generally been progressing, defenses more complicated etc. like most sports. Once we get real competition back I think I would be back and possibly even watching a bit more often (especially given the wolves are talented now, maybe most in franchise history but again irrelevant with league as is today).

Oh and the flopping/acting/baby stuff could definitely go imo as well. I think players realized how easy it is to trick refs or exaggerate contact into a foul and the main reason for it getting so big is exploiting that advantage with the refs to win (AKA if refs stop calling BS then the BS will stop). I hate to be the guy saying players should do it but getting to the line helps your team, as a fan/teammate I wouldn't be mad at my guys for doing it in order to win (the complaining to the refs while game is still going pisses me off though).

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 03:07 PM
I would bet a single punch and brawl would lead to at least a five-game suspension these days. The NBA is better for not allowing these idiots running around playing dirty "great" defense. Do the math. Someone making $8 million per season would make an average of about $100k per game. If they get suspended for five games, that's a huge chunk of money even after taxes. Why would anyone want to risk that and their endorsement to fight these days? Back then, you needed enforcers and you had them because those guys aren't making the big dollars and weren't the stars of the league. I bet Zaza would be considered an enforcer back then, right? That guy is the dirtiest player the past few years. You guys want to see more of this guy?

FlashBolt
05-12-2018, 03:10 PM
I think the NBA is better with allowing free movement outside the lane for defenses (zone). I think the NBA should allow hand checking with the zones though as well, taking that aspect away was a mistake imo. The league was gonna open up without that move they just didn't realize it yet/value 3's and spacing in the same way once zone was implemented.

These few years are gonna be very boring to me as an NBA fan who likes competition but at least I can make money off it it seems lol. I don't think you can blame anyone for that spike etc. though to create such a drastic gap in the league. Outside of that I think NBA has generally been progressing, defenses more complicated etc. like most sports. Once we get real competition back I think I would be back and possibly even watching a bit more often (especially given the wolves are talented now, maybe most in franchise history but again irrelevant with league as is today).

Oh and the flopping/acting/baby stuff could definitely go imo as well. I think players realized how easy it is to trick refs or exaggerate contact into a foul and the main reason for it getting so big is exploiting that advantage with the refs to win (AKA if refs stop calling BS then the BS will stop). I hate to be the guy saying players should do it but getting to the line helps your team, as a fan/teammate I wouldn't be mad at my guys for doing it in order to win (the complaining to the refs while game is still going pisses me off though).

Well, it got boring because of the Warriors. Think about the amount of competition the league would have if KD didn't join the Warriors. Houston, Spurs, Warriors, Cavs, OKC, Pelicans, Boston, Philly. Signing KD wasn't to just stack their team even harder as much as it was to eliminate competition. The casuals love it more than ever but for us more dedicated fans, it's difficult to be so invested into a sport where we know that no team cares about the regular season anymore and that the Warriors will end up winning the ring.

ewing
05-12-2018, 03:16 PM
I would bet a single punch and brawl would lead to at least a five-game suspension these days. The NBA is better for not allowing these idiots running around playing dirty "great" defense. Do the math. Someone making $8 million per season would make an average of about $100k per game. If they get suspended for five games, that's a huge chunk of money even after taxes. Why would anyone want to risk that and their endorsement to fight these days? Back then, you needed enforcers and you had them because those guys aren't making the big dollars and weren't the stars of the league. I bet Zaza would be considered an enforcer back then, right? That guy is the dirtiest player the past few years. You guys want to see more of this guy?

Iím ok with the occasional fight


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mngopher35
05-12-2018, 03:17 PM
bc the defensive is better now and itís harder to score?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is harder to create individually today as the focus of the defense because they aren't restricted to going 1v1 at you so often. It is easier to play off ball within an offense (see Durant who regularily has others handle playmaking/creating) in todays game as you can exploit that help etc. with easy shots or lanes to the hoop off rotations. Even with this though KD still did drop off in playoffs from his RS TS as well.

I think what we see in Durant's TS% is that he was able to score at a high rate against todays defenses (he is generally assisted on 50+% of his shots and has always had a Westy or Curry for defenses to stop as the main creator for their team). When you look at his ORTG etc. however it is a huge drop as his turnovers go up and stuff as well (122 rating drops to 112 in the years between the finals and this GS team). When he is forced to be the man, step up and create he really seems to struggle.

He is an elite scorer who likes to search out the best opportunities for himself over creating for others though is the key point here. His overall play/efficiency drops big in the playoffs as he isn't a great creator but scoring wise he is fine (this is part of why his numbers get huge boost on GS too, open looks and others creating specifically Curry the engine). Even this years playoffs he dropped back to 114 ortg in these playoffs with Curry not fully healthy.

mngopher35
05-12-2018, 03:22 PM
Well, it got boring because of the Warriors. Think about the amount of competition the league would have if KD didn't join the Warriors. Houston, Spurs, Warriors, Cavs, OKC, Pelicans, Boston, Philly. Signing KD wasn't to just stack their team even harder as much as it was to eliminate competition. The casuals love it more than ever but for us more dedicated fans, it's difficult to be so invested into a sport where we know that no team cares about the regular season anymore and that the Warriors will end up winning the ring.

Sure but that competition will come back somewhat soon is what I am saying and then the league will be just fine (for those not as overly hyped as casuals atm). I mean I think people are getting over hyped but even Houston seems to have some believing already. That is a pretty rare situation though in and of itself which can kinda be ignored to answer the real point of what I think this is getting at (where NBA is headed overall not just over next 5 years).

My point is while that is annoying to me as a fan who prefers competition I think overall the league is still headed in a pretty good direction. Hand checking I would add and hope they work on stopping some of the flop stuff as well but in general pretty solid.

burtgummer
05-12-2018, 05:35 PM
The NBA now is pretty much a diva show
More than likely no one here ever watched Wilt in his prime or MJ in his although they were from 2 different eras they all wanted to win unfortunately the NBADL (Diva league) doesn't care
All they want is the money
Its become a bunch of tall millionaires in short pants

papipapsmanny
05-12-2018, 10:21 PM
The NBA has never been better.

I rather not watch bully ball of the 90s when teams scored 70 points. it got so bad the moved the 3 point line a few feet closer so teams could score more. lol.

But don't ya know it was so much easier to score back then?......

papipapsmanny
05-12-2018, 10:45 PM
Seems more a gimmick league now.

Skill wise its still basketball. I am not going to say players are far superior in skills now 20 years later because the lanes are wide open and everyone is shooting threes.

It was much better to watch when you got punished going to the lane.

I also dont understand how anyone who has played any kind of basketball thinks hand checking wouldn't be much of an impact on on today's players...? Oh so if Draymond green were allowed to use his forearm to direct Harden somewhere that isn't going affect Harden? Come on

More so I miss the actual dislike between teams. Today's mindset is not dislike, its "I don't like this adversity so I will join that team, or join up with these FAs ans try and win that way."

Lastly, and I was pretty young when they were around (other than Shaq), but I miss the big talented and defensive forces at the Center position, (Mutombo, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, the Dream, Zo, Brad Daugherty, Even Rik Smits to an extent

BoilermakerD
05-13-2018, 01:35 AM
The NBA has never been better.

I rather not watch bully ball of the 90s when teams scored 70 points. it got so bad the moved the 3 point line a few feet closer so teams could score more. lol.

But the Bulls averaged 110 PPG on 51.0% and 36.6% from three in 1991... all five starters shot 49% or higher
Michael Jordan averaged 33.4 PPG for his career and had entire seasons shooting 52%.. 53.9%.. and on and on.

Shaquille O'neal, at age 21, in his second year, averaged 29.3 PPG on 60.0% FG.

They didnt' need Jerry Colangelo to redo the rules to turn Kobe Bryant into Michael Jordan... no, they didn't need him at all. It was EVERYONE ELSE who needed him.

And Jerry Colangelo and his wet dreams to recreate the 1960s NBA.. is what gave you a league where Joakim Noah, and I'm a Bulls fan.. gets 4th place in MVP and DPOY in the same season.

FlashBolt
05-13-2018, 01:52 AM
The NBA now is pretty much a diva show
More than likely no one here ever watched Wilt in his prime or MJ in his although they were from 2 different eras they all wanted to win unfortunately the NBADL (Diva league) doesn't care
All they want is the money
Its become a bunch of tall millionaires in short pants

If you saw Wilt play, sheesh, you need a wheelchair.

burtgummer
05-13-2018, 04:35 AM
If you saw Wilt play, sheesh, you need a wheelchair.
And you and your boyfriend collectively have an IQ of a turnip
As far as my age goes I'm 71 and I don't have any issues getting around so a wheelchair isn't needed
More than likely however you still need a high chair

Heediot
05-13-2018, 05:11 AM
respect burt, 71 and trolling peeps on psd!!

tredigs
05-13-2018, 09:23 AM
If you saw Wilt play, sheesh, you need a wheelchair.
You are such a ****ing loser.

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 09:35 AM
I think the personality-driven narratives were way better back then. The team identities were not only formed by style of play but also by the personalities of the stars they were built around. There was more of a "war" mentality which made rivalries much more fun. The AAU culture and subsequent "let's team up" nature of the NBA nowadays is lame in my view. The post-Artest rules of officiating and flopping era is embarrassing to a degree.

The league has gotten extremely friendly, wish it was a little nastier like it used to be. Style of play doesn't matter to me as much - I can jive with an uptempo style or a grit-and-grind. It's all fun basketball to me. But the pansy nature of the players and officiating is a knock on this era for me. I like hard fouls, fights, **** talking, taunting. Like it or not it's part of the soul of the game. I like how hockey recognizes it and embraces it. NBA should too, but they don't, probably for racial reasons unfortunately.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 09:41 AM
I think the personality-driven narratives were way better back then. The team identities were not only formed by style of play but also by the personalities of the stars they were built around. There was more of a "war" mentality which made rivalries much more fun. The AAU culture and subsequent "let's team up" nature of the NBA nowadays is lame in my view. The post-Artest rules of officiating and flopping era is embarrassing to a degree.

The league has gotten extremely friendly, wish it was a little nastier like it used to be. Style of play doesn't matter to me as much - I can jive with an uptempo style or a grit-and-grind. It's all fun basketball to me. But the pansy nature of the players and officiating is a knock on this era for me. I like hard fouls, fights, **** talking, taunting. Like it or not it's part of the soul of the game. I like how hockey recognizes it and embraces it. NBA should too, but they don't, probably for racial reasons unfortunately.

This can be summarized as, "I miss my 90's Knicks". We All do. Basketball is better when the Knicks are relevant, and that's been decades now smh.


Overall, though, the game is in an amazing place. Talent wise it is deeper than ever, and the level of play necessary to win a title is at its peak. There are things I miss from the 90's to be sure, but this is an incredible product.

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 10:00 AM
This can be summarized as, "I miss my 90's Knicks". We All do. Basketball is better when the Knicks are relevant, and that's been decades now smh.


Overall, though, the game is in an amazing place. Talent wise it is deeper than ever, and the level of play necessary to win a title is at its peak. There are things I miss from the 90's to be sure, but this is an incredible product.

It applies to the entire league around that time. Knicks were one of many teams.

Ewing-Starks-Oakley and Riley, Bad Boy Pistons, Reggie and the hicks in Indy, Jordan's Bulls, Clyde the Glyde and the Blazers, Barkley's Suns, the Glove and Kemp, Price and Daugherty, Run TMC, Zo and Grandmamama, Shaq and Penny, Hakeem's Rockets, Stockton and Malone, Robinson's Spurs.

The list goes on and on and on. Loads of teams had stars and they all had an identity that formed around those stars. It was fun, there was a better narrative on a nightly basis. These guys are all robots now. GSW has an identity, Rockets have an identity - but it's solely around style of play. Those teams have no personality. None of these playoff teams do. It makes the entertainment side of this all less fun.

Embiid is bringing that side of the game back and it's already making any playoff series he is in more interesting.

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 10:11 AM
Put any combination of teams I listed above on the floor and you have a must-watch game because of the mix of stars, identities, styles of play.

I can't say people are hyped up to watch any mix of second round teams in today's NBA on a potential Sunday afternoon ABC game. Toronto vs Houston, Utah vs Boston, there is nothing at all interesting about any matchups you can think up outside of being simply close in skill and outcome. 90s Knicks vs 90s Sonics? That's ****ing fun. Reggie's Pacers vs Barkley's Suns? That's fun. Shaq's Magic vs Jordan's Bulls? Must-watch TV. There's no fun narratives. Golden State vs Houston should be fun. But even that lacks personality. Boston vs Cleveland would have an epic storyline if Kyrie was playing.

There is a dryness to today's game that has nothing to do with skill or talent but it's undeniable.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 10:12 AM
It applies to the entire league around that time. Knicks were one of many teams.

Ewing-Starks-Oakley and Riley, Bad Boy Pistons, Reggie and the hicks in Indy, Jordan's Bulls, Clyde the Glyde and the Blazers, Barkley's Suns, the Glove and Kemp, Price and Daugherty, Run TMC, Zo and Grandmamama, Shaq and Penny, Hakeem's Rockets.

The list goes on and on and on. Loads of teams had stars and they all had an identity that formed around those stars. It was fun, there was a better narrative on a nightly basis. These guys are all robots now. GSW has an identity, Rockets have an identity - but it's solely around style of play. Those teams have no personality. None of these playoff teams do. It makes the entertainment side of this all less fun.

Embiid is bringing that side of the game back and it's already making any playoff series he is in more interesting.

The Warriors for one do have personality, and a lot of it. Steph is a god damn showman/entertainer on the court. Draymond is as in-your-face a **** talker as you get. Klay and KD are subdued (KD less so after becoming the league villain) for the most part (that's who they are), but they're the games apex and they do absolutely have an identity.

I actually think trash talking was a little more prevalent in the 80's and 90's simply because the game was run by Larry and Mike and they were the ultimate competitors and **** talkers, and to try to beat them you sort of had to adopt that way about you. That just wasn't the case for Robinson and Duncan or Shaq or Lebron. They mostly let their games speak. The basketball is at its best right now, even if the personalities are not.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 10:16 AM
Ultimately, the ratings and increasing global presence of the game speak for itself. It's never been in a better place.

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 10:17 AM
The Warriors for one do have personality, and a lot of it. Steph is a god damn showman/entertainer on the court. Draymond is as in-your-face a **** talker as you get. Klay and KD are subdued (KD less so after becoming the league villain) for the most part (that's who they are), but they're the games apex and they do absolutely have an identity.

I actually think trash talking was a little more prevalent in the 80's and 90's simply because the game was run by Larry and Mike and they were the ultimate competitors and **** talkers, and to try to beat them you sort of had to adopt that way about you. That just wasn't the case for Robinson and Duncan or Shaq or Lebron. They mostly let their games speak. The basketball is at its best right now, even if the personalities are not.

You are going to vouch for this era because your team is the cream of the crop the same way I'll vouch for the previous one because the Knicks represent that style better than any other team (they obviously weren't the best team).

You can make an argument for the Warriors, maybe they need some other teams to bring that out a little more. Picking up an MVP after winning 73 games and annihilating every team for years kind of subdues any personality really needed to drive a rivalry or a fun playoff series.

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 10:18 AM
Ultimately, the ratings and increasing global presence of the game speak for itself. It's never been in a better place.

You could use an argument like that to say hip hop is better now than it's ever been. No one would ever believe that.

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 10:21 AM
Also it's not all about **** talking, to your point about Shaq and D-Rob, their teams still had personality. Shaq was loud, Penny was quiet, they were flashy as **** on the court, Shaq was rapping, putting out kung fu video games, breaking rims, Penny had his lil Penny commercials, but that team had plenty of personality. D-Rob was the Navy guy, his team took on the typical "Spurs" type of identity that carried over into the Duncan years. It's not only about **** talking. It's a persona.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 10:22 AM
You could use an argument like that to say hip hop is better now than it's ever been. No one would ever believe that.
Yeah, but you're talking about quality here. The quality of play is also at its peak in the current NBA. You just miss the non ball **** (I do too to an extent).

D-Leethal
05-13-2018, 10:25 AM
Yeah, but you're talking about quality here. The quality of play is also at its peak in the current NBA. You just miss the non ball **** (I do too to an extent).

IMO, quality of the entertainment goes beyond quality of play. Maybe that's the argument I'm making. Not arguing the talent level isn't at it's peak right now. Quality of matchups, narratives, antics, toughness, personality is all significantly lower. That's a big part of the entertainment side of this. Just because more people are watching doesn't mean it's a better overall product. And the product is more than just the skill and talent of the players. Loads of people watch the Kardashians and listen to lil Pump too.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 10:35 AM
IMO, quality of the entertainment goes beyond quality of play. Maybe that's the argument I'm making. Not arguing the talent level isn't at it's peak right now. Quality of matchups, narratives, antics, toughness, personality is all significantly lower. That's a big part of the entertainment side of this. Just because more people are watching doesn't mean it's a better overall product. And the product is more than just the skill and talent of the players. Loads of people watch the Kardashians and listen to lil Pump too.
I mean like I said, I partially agree. I'm more interested in the actual game than anything else, and I just think the game is being played at such a high level from the top teams/players that it makes for an incredible product. I've mentioned it before, but I think that this Warriors/Rockets series will be the highest level of ball ever played in a playoff series. Regardless of the outcome I'll be rewatching the games a few times to catch everything. The personalities were definitely better as a whole in the 90's, but I don't think the NBA is to blame for that, we just need more Draymond's and Embiid's. It's cyclical.

Hawkeye15
05-13-2018, 10:37 AM
I am 42, my nostalgia runs deep for the 90's due to my youth, but the pool of athletes, training, and everything else that goes into the game, has led to the talent level being better than ever. Sports, like everything else, evolve. The bottom 5 guys on teams back then wouldn't be in the NBA anymore. Argue all you want about style, fundamentals, blah blah blah, the players today are simply better basketball players than yesterday. In 25 years, that will be true again.

ewing
05-13-2018, 10:44 AM
This can be summarized as, "I miss my 90's Knicks". We All do. Basketball is better when the Knicks are relevant, and that's been decades now smh.


Overall, though, the game is in an amazing place. Talent wise it is deeper than ever, and the level of play necessary to win a title is at its peak. There are things I miss from the 90's to be sure, but this is an incredible product.

This can be summarized as my team has done by far the best job building a team that conforms to an NBA structure that rewards a particular style of basketball so itís the best basketball ever played.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tredigs
05-13-2018, 10:50 AM
This can be summarized as my team has done by far the best job building a team that conforms to an NBA structure that rewards a particular style of basketball so itís the best basketball ever played.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Rockets run a completely different style than the Warriors and are also one of the best teams I have ever seen, so no. The level of play at the top of the game right now (on both ends) is just absurd. There have been teams as talented, but I don't think ball has been played at quite this level. Get back to me in 2 weeks though.

ewing
05-13-2018, 10:58 AM
The Rockets run a completely different style than the Warriors and are also one of the best teams I have ever seen, so no. The level of play at the top of the game right now (on both ends) is just absurd. There have been teams as talented, but I don't think ball has been played at quite this level. Get back to me in 2 weeks though.

They are more alike then different. The only legitimate team that plays a different style is the Jazz. You can make the argument that the old rules rewarded size too much but the current structure does not allow for much variety in play. Saying that defense is played at a higher level when the team that everyone is picking to come out the East plays K Love center all the time is a joke. Every team is the used to have players like Andrea Roberson that made money solely b/c they defended. That's b/c it matter more. Deemphasisiing defense and physicality is a big factor in what you see as an increase in "level of play". Mike Dunleavy was one skilled mother ****er on todays metric. A lot more skilled most guys he played against, he was also skinny ***** and that tied him to the bench for most of his career. Today he might be an all star

tredigs
05-13-2018, 11:30 AM
They are more alike then different. The only legitimate team that plays a different style is the Jazz. You can make the argument that the old rules rewarded size too much but the current structure does not allow for much variety in play. Saying that defense is played at a higher level when the team that everyone is picking to come out the East plays K Love center all the time is a joke. Every team is the used to have players like Andrea Roberson that made money solely b/c they defended. That's b/c it matter more. Deemphasisiing defense and physicality is a big factor in what you see as an increase in "level of play". Mike Dunleavy was one skilled mother ****er on todays metric. A lot more skilled most guys he played against, he was also skinny ***** and that tied him to the bench for most of his career. Today he might be an all star

Negative. On the way out so I can't get too into it, but if a player is a true weakness defensively he will get beaten to death by the top teams and rendered unplayable. Ryan Anderson is currently being benched for this exact reason despite having one of the best 3pt strokes the game has seen.

ewing
05-13-2018, 11:58 AM
Negative. On the way out so I can't get too into it, but if a player is a true weakness defensively he will get beaten to death by the top teams and rendered unplayable. Ryan Anderson is currently being benched for this exact reason despite having one of the best 3pt strokes the game has seen.

Finding an example where an already stacked offensive team benches a superior offensive player for a better defender shows that defense still matters. What I am saying is that he matters less, significantly less


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europagnpilgrim
05-13-2018, 01:27 PM
I am 42, my nostalgia runs deep for the 90's due to my youth, but the pool of athletes, training, and everything else that goes into the game, has led to the talent level being better than ever. Sports, like everything else, evolve. The bottom 5 guys on teams back then wouldn't be in the NBA anymore. Argue all you want about style, fundamentals, blah blah blah, the players today are simply better basketball players than yesterday. In 25 years, that will be true again.

More athletic but not complete skill wise as to the 90's early 00's, those eras had more dominant / better players in quantity as to now, more 1st Ballot HOF'er caliber players I feel

in 25yrs the nba will be right about the same or dare I say, worse

Evolution doesn't always mean better, just as more in volume doesn't mean better, the old school had players who could shoot, dunk, dribble etc. as todays players but not in volume, just as you have more natural better athletes today but they lack the other attributes that the lesser but still athletic players had back then

like McGee, Turner, Howard, Shaq and plenty others who had Duncan beat on pure athletic ability but Duncan had the other attributes on his side in spades for most part

its not really nostalgia for the 90's especially when you look at the teams that were in contention or even the late 80's for teams that were really good and didn't win titles, those teams were loaded

teams like 96' Sonics or those Jazz teams would wipe out majority of teams if not all in todays game, Blazers as well, Kings as well of early 00's, even those mid to late 80's Bucks team were a problem, Hawks as well

This reminds me of hip hop era sort of, todays rappers are making 10x what 90's rappers made money wise, and while its some who are talented the majority are borderline trash and it reminds me of over paid players today who are borderline 6th men signing 100 mill deals

I mean K Bazemore in the 90's or early 00's a Juan Dixon level player? or possibly even lesser, so this evolution thing doesn't necessarily mean better, as more so to in abundance of better athletes who can ran and jump, much more than that to basketball, the evolution(arrival) of euro big men who primarily shoot jumpers / 3's / flop and flop and flop is not necessarily a good recipe for making a product better, now it has trickled to the American born players who flop more than ever and now it has infected the nba front office who now have officials calling for a replay after every single touch foul call, the game is being saved by scoring more points right now at a high rate, the same rate the others have cried about being too high paced and inflating stats, well I guess you are who you are, nba is back to playing at a pace as the teams did in the 1960's, some evolution I dare to say

Heediot
05-13-2018, 02:00 PM
I mean like I said, I partially agree. I'm more interested in the actual game than anything else, and I just think the game is being played at such a high level from the top teams/players that it makes for an incredible product. I've mentioned it before, but I think that this Warriors/Rockets series will be the highest level of ball ever played in a playoff series. Regardless of the outcome I'll be rewatching the games a few times to catch everything. The personalities were definitely better as a whole in the 90's, but I don't think the NBA is to blame for that, we just need more Draymond's and Embiid's. It's cyclical.

It's at a point where offense is so ahead with the way the game is called, I'd be surprised if the defense will ever catch up if things stay the same. With ratings up, the league knows offense sells so I don't expect change anytime soon. The quality is great, but the nba is too much about money for one to truly know what the highest level of basketball could be. Fiba has the most legit rules that doesn't cater to one position/play/style vs. another, but international leagues aren't even close in terms of world class talent. If somehow the two can merge then we would fully know what the highest quality of basketball is. Relatively speaking, you do have a point given what players and coaches are working with in the nba, at least offensively the quality has never been this good.

Personally I still prefer international and college ball.

flea
05-13-2018, 03:01 PM
No idea what people mean when they say the talent is the 'best ever,' and then say in 10 years it will be the 'best ever.' That makes zero sense - do people really think every generation are superhumans compared to the ones before? The Roman gladiators would wipe the floor with all of us oversocialized wusses, especially the ones in the NBA.

I'd argue the talent is worse, because you had to be a well-rounded player in MJ's era. There were role players true but the nature of the game was about exploiting individual matchups. Just taking MJ's team, Longley was a well-rounded center who could shoot a short J, play with his back to the basket, pass, and defend his position. He is a much more talented basketball player than DeAndre Jordan, who is not very talented, and Longley was probably a middle pack (at best) center in his day. So for bigs I'd agree that athleticism, on the whole, is better today but skills and well-roundedness is way worse.

Wings on the other hand is the opposite. Pretty much every non-star wing fits the same mold today - shoot, move your feet, and be long. Wings aren't nearly as athletic as they used to be, and they don't have to be. Klay Thompson is the supercharged version of what everyone wants on the wing and he is not much of an athlete. Same with Danny Green, Jae Crowder, Mo Harkless, etc. You can see this in the influx of Euros who can shoot and defend.

Guards (most PGs and some SGs) that aren't wings have to be fast ballhandlers and that's pretty much it. In MJ's era Teague is probably a bench guy, if he even makes the league. Today he's firmly a middle pack NBA starting PG. He'll have a nice career in this era, not in the prior one. I wish Aaron Brooks was 24 right now, he might push for being a top half PG today and he's only a decade behind.

It's a niche league now, not really basketball but it creates youtube highlights. There's still the best talent in the world in the league but that's always been true. Outside of the stars it's just a different game. Personally I don't get excited over tons of standstill jumpers. I watch mostly college because it still mostly resembles basketball even if it's become more NBA-ized in the last 5 years.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 03:26 PM
It's at a point where offense is so ahead with the way the game is called, I'd be surprised if the defense will ever catch up if things stay the same. With ratings up, the league knows offense sells so I don't expect change anytime soon. The quality is great, but the nba is too much about money for one to truly know what the highest level of basketball could be. Fiba has the most legit rules that doesn't cater to one position/play/style vs. another, but international leagues aren't even close in terms of world class talent. If somehow the two can merge then we would fully know what the highest quality of basketball is. Relatively speaking, you do have a point given what players and coaches are working with in the nba, at least offensively the quality has never been this good.

Personally I still prefer international and college ball.

Not sure if you realize how elite the D's of the last four teams are. The Cavs are a mess, every other team is fantastic. Lmfao at preferring college ball. Horrible product.

Jamiecballer
05-13-2018, 03:51 PM
Also it's not all about **** talking, to your point about Shaq and D-Rob, their teams still had personality. Shaq was loud, Penny was quiet, they were flashy as **** on the court, Shaq was rapping, putting out kung fu video games, breaking rims, Penny had his lil Penny commercials, but that team had plenty of personality. D-Rob was the Navy guy, his team took on the typical "Spurs" type of identity that carried over into the Duncan years. It's not only about **** talking. It's a persona.It's also the result of all of us being exposed to the same media sources. When I was growing up I was an MJ fan. Do you know why? Because if you wanted to watch a basketball game you took whatever game ABC or NBC of whatever it was gave you and it always seemed to be the Bulls. And Pacers. Second favorite player was Miller. You saw ads all week about the Bulls and Pacers this Sunday, and you were basically told what to be excited by and why. Next week, repeat. How we consume our sports will never ever be like that again.

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Jeffy25
05-13-2018, 03:56 PM
It's also the result of all of us being exposed to the same media sources. When I was growing up I was an MJ fan. Do you know why? Because if you wanted to watch a basketball game you took whatever game ABC or NBC of whatever it was gave you and it always seemed to be the Bulls. And Pacers. Second favorite player was Miller. You saw ads all week about the Bulls and Pacers this Sunday, and you were basically told what to be excited by and why. Next week, repeat. How we consume our sports will never ever be like that again.

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Right, you didn't root for a local team, you started rooting for a team in the games you could see.

It's partially why the Cubs and Braves are so popular in baseball. TBS and WGN always had a game on, and that meant everybody could see those teams play every night, regardless of location.

Add in that the Bulls were good, and it's amplified.

goingfor28
05-13-2018, 04:51 PM
I miss the physical NBA. I hate the constant flopping and whining from everyone in the league now.

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Heediot
05-13-2018, 04:58 PM
Not sure if you realize how elite the D's of the last four teams are. The Cavs are a mess, every other team is fantastic. Lmfao at preferring college ball. Horrible product.

Elite is always relative to its era. I just feel like players are getting cleaner looks and to their spots with more ease vs. the past couple decades.

I just prefer College ball over NBA. Its like music or tv not everyone is going to jam to Nas and Rakim, or Watch House of Cards and Game of Thrones.

tredigs
05-13-2018, 06:25 PM
Elite is always relative to its era. I just feel like players are getting cleaner looks and to their spots with more ease vs. the past couple decades.

I just prefer College ball over NBA. Its like music or tv not everyone is going to jam to Nas and Rakim, or Watch House of Cards and Game of Thrones.
I get it, but it's a tough dichotomy for me to stomach when on one hand you're ragging on some pretty damn solid defenses + the NBA product and then enjoying college. I do like both for different reasons but man is college terribly executed ball.

papipapsmanny
05-13-2018, 11:08 PM
I get it, but it's a tough dichotomy for me to stomach when on one hand you're ragging on some pretty damn solid defenses + the NBA product and then enjoying college. I do like both for different reasons but man is college terribly executed ball.

I like college basketball because of the zone defenses and no 3 second rule.

People like to act like the NBA allowing "zone" defense was some big thing, when in reality no one plays zone in the NBA because of the defensive 3 seconds.

Basketball would be so much better if the removed the defensive 3-seconds and perhaps lightened up on hand-check fouls (not change the rule, but allow a certain aspect of it)

I think that would bring come importance back to the center position, and create a lot of strategy in terms of small ball vs having a center to park in the lane

Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 12:02 AM
I like college basketball because of the zone defenses and no 3 second rule.

People like to act like the NBA allowing "zone" defense was some big thing, when in reality no one plays zone in the NBA because of the defensive 3 seconds.

Basketball would be so much better if the removed the defensive 3-seconds and perhaps lightened up on hand-check fouls (not change the rule, but allow a certain aspect of it)

I think that would bring come importance back to the center position, and create a lot of strategy in terms of small ball vs having a center to park in the lane

College basketball is a series of horrible basketball iq players moving arms and legs at high speeds in poorly coordinated fashions.

I can't watch it, except for high level schools.

NYKalltheway
05-14-2018, 05:03 AM
If you think the talent is worse today than 20 years ago you are fooling yourself.

It's better in every pro sport.

Every single decade, the talent takes leaps forward with improved nutrition, training, and coaching.


Every single thing you said has nothing to do with talent...
Better nutrition? Does not make you a more talented basketball player.
Better training? Does not grow talent.
Better coaching? Nothing to do with player talent here either and I'd say that it's not really improved since the earlier days but just that some teams are doing more things now. The fact that D'Antoni can toy around the RS so often when he's sort of clueless says a lot about coaching.

Talent is something you either have or haven't. The best players today do not 'look' talented but more like athletic specimens. They could be running track or playing in the NFL or doing anything else looking exactly like that and no one would say "dude should have been playing basketball" unless it was height related.

Heediot
05-14-2018, 06:04 AM
I get it, but it's a tough dichotomy for me to stomach when on one hand you're ragging on some pretty damn solid defenses + the NBA product and then enjoying college. I do like both for different reasons but man is college terribly executed ball.

Rules are too cheesy now. I like to see people earn their points. Even when the Celtics played good defense, the Cavs had plenty of clean looks yesterday. Relatively, it was a dominant defensive performance. Giving up 100 points was bad defense before, now giving just 100 points is good/great defense. I know the pace has increased dramatically and teams are launching more threes, but they are launching more 3's in college and europe also. In Europe where some of these ideas and concepts originated about space and pace, teams have found ways to counter a lot more easily because of certain liberties. Defenses have caught up to the offenses. I just don't see that gap closing anytime soon in the nba. the League likes it this way, so I don't expect changes within the next decade.

I just prefer a bit of adversity in scoring. Celtics had their moments of forcing late shot clock attempts on the Cavs, Cavs still had plenty of possessions launching quickly too. Pretty terrible shooting night, and Bron looked befuddled and lack and lacked some oomph in his game.

Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 02:54 PM
Every single thing you said has nothing to do with talent...
Better nutrition? Does not make you a more talented basketball player.
Better training? Does not grow talent.
Better coaching? Nothing to do with player talent here either and I'd say that it's not really improved since the earlier days but just that some teams are doing more things now. The fact that D'Antoni can toy around the RS so often when he's sort of clueless says a lot about coaching.

Talent is something you either have or haven't. The best players today do not 'look' talented but more like athletic specimens. They could be running track or playing in the NFL or doing anything else looking exactly like that and no one would say "dude should have been playing basketball" unless it was height related.

They are also better skilled players.

Shooting percentages are up across the league, 3 point shooting, free throw shooting, etc. Scoring and pacing is up, it's not just the physical abilities that are improved, they are better and smarter basketball players too.

crewfan13
05-14-2018, 05:11 PM
I see a lot of comments about offense being way up. The average points per game per team has been over 105 the past two years. From 1976-1993, the points per game exceeded 105 every single year. So even the nostalgia, if it goes back before the mid 90s is wrong that this is all of a sudden an offensive league compared to its history.

And we complain about flopping and weak play and all that but thatís kind of crap too. Free throw attempts per game are at their lowest point in league history. Sure, 3pt attempts are way up, but free throws being down is a great thing in my mind. Free throws (besides ones to ice a game with 5 seconds left) are the most boring shot in basketball.

People are just so hooked on nostalgia that itís impossible to remember the crap times of the bygone days as well. Itís all about ascetics. Itís easy to remember back to all the cool crap Jordan did. Or Reggie Miller crushing the Knicks and stuff like that. But on the flip side, did we really love throwing it in to random big who get bashed and shoot 15 free throws a game?

I mean, we remember Jordanís big playoff moments. But was the 1996 first round matchup of Atlanta vs Cleveland really great basketball in a great era? Or are we just focusing on a couple big players in big games when we talk about how awesome the old days were?

Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 05:18 PM
I see a lot of comments about offense being way up. The average points per game per team has been over 105 the past two years. From 1976-1993, the points per game exceeded 105 every single year. So even the nostalgia, if it goes back before the mid 90s is wrong that this is all of a sudden an offensive league compared to its history.

And we complain about flopping and weak play and all that but thatís kind of crap too. Free throw attempts per game are at their lowest point in league history. Sure, 3pt attempts are way up, but free throws being down is a great thing in my mind. Free throws (besides ones to ice a game with 5 seconds left) are the most boring shot in basketball.

People are just so hooked on nostalgia that itís impossible to remember the crap times of the bygone days as well. Itís all about ascetics. Itís easy to remember back to all the cool crap Jordan did. Or Reggie Miller crushing the Knicks and stuff like that. But on the flip side, did we really love throwing it in to random big who get bashed and shoot 15 free throws a game?

I mean, we remember Jordanís big playoff moments. But was the 1996 first round matchup of Atlanta vs Cleveland really great basketball in a great era? Or are we just focusing on a couple big players in big games when we talk about how awesome the old days were?

Well said.

burtgummer
05-14-2018, 05:27 PM
I get it, but it's a tough dichotomy for me to stomach when on one hand you're ragging on some pretty damn solid defenses + the NBA product and then enjoying college. I do like both for different reasons but man is college terribly executed ball.
The one thing about college ball though is that the players want to win
NBA players don't give a **** about winning all they want is the big bucks

Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 05:59 PM
The one thing about college ball though is that the players want to win
NBA players don't give a **** about winning all they want is the big bucks

You having fun making things up from the seat of your pants?

papipapsmanny
05-14-2018, 07:25 PM
They are also better skilled players.

Shooting percentages are up across the league, 3 point shooting, free throw shooting, etc. Scoring and pacing is up, it's not just the physical abilities that are improved, they are better and smarter basketball players too.

Ehh you are overstating this.... its still just basketball, and again I'd say a lot of what you are saying has to do with the NBA's rule changes that significantly cater to more offense (which was their intention)

Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 07:30 PM
Ehh you are overstating this.... its still just basketball, and again I'd say a lot of what you are saying has to do with the NBA's rule changes that significantly cater to more offense (which was their intention)

2017-2018 - 21.7 FTA/G
2007-2008 - 24.9 FTA/G
1997-1998 - 26.3 FTA/G

We are seeing less and less free throw attempts every year. It's hard to equate if it's better or worse, because if offense is up, defense is down. If defense is up, offense is down. It goes both ways. We can't pit former players against current players to really know.

papipapsmanny
05-14-2018, 08:29 PM
2017-2018 - 21.7 FTA/G
2007-2008 - 24.9 FTA/G
1997-1998 - 26.3 FTA/G

We are seeing less and less free throw attempts every year. It's hard to equate if it's better or worse, because if offense is up, defense is down. If defense is up, offense is down. It goes both ways. We can't pit former players against current players to really know.

Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set

Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 09:21 PM
Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set

20 years ago, there were no offenses like these Warriors and Rockets. Guys creating their own shots and teams passing the ball 300 times in a game. Durant makes fade-aways like Jordan did, yet, pulls up 3's in transition. Harden beats you to your spots offensively and creates his own shots or lay ins. The pick and roll and pick and pop is completely perfected.

Look at Kevin Durant only.

Dude is 7 foot tall and shoots middie's with guys in his face no problem because his release is so high. And he is an incredibly efficient shooter. Yet, can attack the basket, pull the 3 in transition, or just go the full scale of the court like he just did and create a dunk over 3 guys.

He looks like Jordan with Bird's jump shot and is a 7 footer. And yet, isn't even considered the best player in the league.

Yes, there were things that made offense easier, but these guys are significantly more talented than what existed 20 years ago.

It's foolish to think it's anywhere close to what it was 20 years ago.

These guys literally train year round, have all their meals and training mapped out, have much higher bball iq, have front offices and coaches showing them efficient opportunities, and international players.

Of course it's a significantly more talented and better league. And not just in the physical leap. Their better basketball players too, by a lot.


If you hadn't watched an NBA game in 20 years, and just watched the Rockets and Warriors, not talking other elite players. Just Warriors and Rockets.

No answer for the offense that these guys just create. Durant is hitting every thing with great defense on him. Harden is creating his own offense, role players are taking one dribble deep three's.

Fans of the 90's never saw someone like Kevin Durant.

ewing
05-14-2018, 10:00 PM
^^^ always most impressed by the last thing he has seen


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Jeffy25
05-14-2018, 10:05 PM
^^^ always most impressed by the last thing he has seen


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Not even close.

It's just a reality. The game, as in every sport, is significantly better than it was 20 years ago, and 20 years before that. And in 20 years, it'll be much better than it is today.

flea
05-14-2018, 10:39 PM
20 years ago, there were no offenses like these Warriors and Rockets. Guys creating their own shots and teams passing the ball 300 times in a game. Durant makes fade-aways like Jordan did, yet, pulls up 3's in transition. Harden beats you to your spots offensively and creates his own shots or lay ins. The pick and roll and pick and pop is completely perfected.

Look at Kevin Durant only.

Dude is 7 foot tall and shoots middie's with guys in his face no problem because his release is so high. And he is an incredibly efficient shooter. Yet, can attack the basket, pull the 3 in transition, or just go the full scale of the court like he just did and create a dunk over 3 guys.

He looks like Jordan with Bird's jump shot and is a 7 footer. And yet, isn't even considered the best player in the league.

Yes, there were things that made offense easier, but these guys are significantly more talented than what existed 20 years ago.

It's foolish to think it's anywhere close to what it was 20 years ago.

These guys literally train year round, have all their meals and training mapped out, have much higher bball iq, have front offices and coaches showing them efficient opportunities, and international players.

Of course it's a significantly more talented and better league. And not just in the physical leap. Their better basketball players too, by a lot.


If you hadn't watched an NBA game in 20 years, and just watched the Rockets and Warriors, not talking other elite players. Just Warriors and Rockets.

No answer for the offense that these guys just create. Durant is hitting every thing with great defense on him. Harden is creating his own offense, role players are taking one dribble deep three's.

Fans of the 90's never saw someone like Kevin Durant.

Lol.....

Pretending the league Durant is putting up his stats in is anything at all like what Bird or MJ did is like comparing Russell Wilson's stats to Peyton Manning's.

Chronz
05-14-2018, 10:41 PM
I see a lot of comments about offense being way up. The average points per game per team has been over 105 the past two years. From 1976-1993, the points per game exceeded 105 every single year. So even the nostalgia, if it goes back before the mid 90s is wrong that this is all of a sudden an offensive league compared to its history.

And we complain about flopping and weak play and all that but thatís kind of crap too. Free throw attempts per game are at their lowest point in league history. Sure, 3pt attempts are way up, but free throws being down is a great thing in my mind. Free throws (besides ones to ice a game with 5 seconds left) are the most boring shot in basketball.

People are just so hooked on nostalgia that itís impossible to remember the crap times of the bygone days as well. Itís all about ascetics. Itís easy to remember back to all the cool crap Jordan did. Or Reggie Miller crushing the Knicks and stuff like that. But on the flip side, did we really love throwing it in to random big who get bashed and shoot 15 free throws a game?

I mean, we remember Jordanís big playoff moments. But was the 1996 first round matchup of Atlanta vs Cleveland really great basketball in a great era? Or are we just focusing on a couple big players in big games when we talk about how awesome the old days were?
Its about how they get their looks too. Back then simplistic isos did the trick, nowv you need the skill of limitless range

crewfan13
05-14-2018, 11:37 PM
Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set

The defensive 3 seconds rule was coupled with allowing ďzoneĒ defenses and it actually resulted in a net positive for defenses. Prior to the defensive 3 second rule,illegal defense could be called at any point if you were in the paint and not actively guarding someone. You also couldnít double someone without the ball.

So defensive 3 seconds wasnít a rule to cater to the offense. It was actually a rule to cut out the almost strictly iso ball that ended up happening in the 90s and early 2000s.

And saying rules cater to the offense now but didnít back then doesnít explain why the league finally eclipsed 105 pts per game per team last year for the first time in 20+ years, but from Ď76-Ď93 it eclipsed 105 every single season. Scoring in the nba over the last 5 or so years is up compared to the mid to late 90s. But compared to the 80s to early 90s, itís flat to actually down a little bit in terms of total scoring.

And people always mention hand checking being legal for Jordanís era, but completely overlook the quality of wing defender during that era. During Jordanís era, outside of him and pippen, the actual wing defenders were fairly weak. Most of the all defensive teams were filled with pgs, pfs and c. Part of that was the types of metrics voters loved back then, but part of that was a testament to the quality of wing defender. I mean, Jordan beat up in guys like Russell and hornacek when he was beating the jazz. This warriors team has at least 3, maybe 4 or more players who are better wing defenders than the guys Utah threw at Jordan. The warriors may be a bit of an exception, especially since those guys can play both ways, but just about every team in todays nba has those long, hyper athletic wing stoppers that were fairly rare in Jordanís day. So even though they chat hand check, these guys donít need to hand check to play decent defense because of their length and athleticism.

Jeffy25
05-15-2018, 12:52 AM
Lol.....

Pretending the league Durant is putting up his stats in is anything at all like what Bird or MJ did is like comparing Russell Wilson's stats to Peyton Manning's.

I literally made that post not stating a single stat.

It's what he can physically do on the court. It's unparalleled in the 90's

It doesn't matter how you defend him, he's scoring on you.

Chronz
05-15-2018, 01:18 AM
Thats not really an argument. There is more offense because the NBA wanted more offense, this is known by all. NBA did what they could with rule changes to create more offense. Eliminate hand checking and create defensive 3-seconds.

What did that do? Opened the lanes for one, 2nd allowed offensive players to go where they wanted freely, and 3rd made defense hard because when you had a forearm on someone you could feel where they were wanting to move.

Again this is what the NBA wanted, and they got it.

Just like if the MLB game implements a pitch clock I won't sit and wonder why the games are going faster.

Now there is more analysis and statistics (let's not kid ourselves though "advanced statics" explain a lot less than that of baseball because of the nature of each sport).

In the end, the hoop hasn't been lowered or the rim narrowed. Its still passing/rebounding, and no 20 years of evolution doesn't enhance that skill set

Nobody's kidding themselves, the rule changes alone do not explain it all. MLB is actually less predictive than nba in many years. What doyou base any of this on

zookman65
05-15-2018, 02:09 AM
I don't think the rule changes account for hardly any of the exciting offensive play we see now. To me its more about analytics and guys realizing that the more open 3 point shots you take the more likely you are to score a lot of points. Why take a 17 to 19 foot 2 pointer when you can take a step back and get rewarded 1.5 times for your effort. The boring isolation ball of the mid 90s was just ugly basketball.

Heediot
05-15-2018, 06:49 AM
It's not as simple as shooting threes and not long two's. Why has European defenses caught up to the pace and space. They launch threes at a high clip too, same with college the three ball has went up all around? It's just simply more easier to get to spots and manipulate defenders the way the nba has the rules set up. It's not the only factors but it's a very significant factor. I am sure analytics has helped with telling everyone their sweet spots, but these rules allow coaches and players to get to their sweet spots easier.

ewing
05-15-2018, 06:57 AM
I don't think the rule changes account for hardly any of the exciting offensive play we see now. To me its more about analytics and guys realizing that the more open 3 point shots you take the more likely you are to score a lot of points. Why take a 17 to 19 foot 2 pointer when you can take a step back and get rewarded 1.5 times for your effort. The boring isolation ball of the mid 90s was just ugly basketball.

Itís probably the evolution of man. I hear itís pretty quick


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Chronz
05-15-2018, 08:15 AM
Itís probably the evolution of man. I hear itís pretty quick


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You believe in evolution

crewfan13
05-15-2018, 09:35 AM
It's not as simple as shooting threes and not long two's. Why has European defenses caught up to the pace and space. They launch threes at a high clip too, same with college the three ball has went up all around? It's just simply more easier to get to spots and manipulate defenders the way the nba has the rules set up. It's not the only factors but it's a very significant factor. I am sure analytics has helped with telling everyone their sweet spots, but these rules allow coaches and players to get to their sweet spots easier.

College rules are actually more lax than the nba with contact permitted while driving. And the reason nba players hit more 3s is because they are the best of the best college players. I mean, watch a pro game. How many guys actually miss wide open 3s? Itís relatively rare. If you watch college, guys are missing wide open 3s at a much higher clip. Itís not as much about defenses, itís more of the quality of players. Plus college has been flooded with one and dones, who tend to be worse shooters as a whole.

College allows a full zone defense, which the nba does not. But generally speaking, zones arenít better at stopping penetration but tend to give more open 3s. So I donít think thereís anything within the rules that allows for more made 3s in college. I donít watch European ball, so I canít comment on what theyíre doing.

Heediot
05-15-2018, 09:58 AM
College rules are actually more lax than the nba with contact permitted while driving. And the reason nba players hit more 3s is because they are the best of the best college players. I mean, watch a pro game. How many guys actually miss wide open 3s? Itís relatively rare. If you watch college, guys are missing wide open 3s at a much higher clip. Itís not as much about defenses, itís more of the quality of players. Plus college has been flooded with one and dones, who tend to be worse shooters as a whole.

College allows a full zone defense, which the nba does not. But generally speaking, zones arenít better at stopping penetration but tend to give more open 3s. So I donít think thereís anything within the rules that allows for more made 3s in college. I donít watch European ball, so I canít comment on what theyíre doing.

Yeah I mentioned earlier in the thread college abolished the hand check too.

When you look at the shooting numbers from 3, the top 160-70 schools still shoot at a 35 percent clip. the nba averages a roughly 35-36 percent overall. I think the true zones rule matter for big men. You don't have to go to a full zone, but if you get rid of the 3 second violation and let guys camp in the paint, it makes a difference in how you can rotate players on switches. Like you said it also makes players think twice about taking it to the hole.

In Europe the3 point line line is closer and there are just as much or arguably more pure shooters and three point specialists. With hand checking and true zones, it gives defenses and coaches more at their disposal to counter offenses. CSKA Moscow is a beast offense in the Euroleague but their PPG translates to 106 in the nba, which would be a middling team. The Average team PPG in Euroleague is aroung 80 or 96 (Nba) give or take. Some of these newer style of nba play has been brought over from Europe, but defenses have caught up. I just don't see that happening in the nba, and just off of the scores it seems like teams are hitting 110 or more more then ever in the playoffs this year and last.