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Tg11
05-08-2018, 12:31 PM
Should the Baby Dinosaurs like my man Shannon Sharpe refers to the Raptors as...blow their team up? Or keep the same core group of guys that they know they cannot win with? I say if you realistically want to compete not just in the East but potentially in the whole NBA is you gotta lure big names to come to Toronto. However, Toronto has no cap space. There lies the issue.

FlashBolt
05-08-2018, 12:36 PM
They likely reach the Finals if Bron isn't their opponent. I'd consider trading DeRozan and gauge the market but I don't think this team can compete vs a strong Celtics team and a Philly squad growing in the future. But let's face it: They were never going to beat the Warriors anyways. Rockets? Maybe but I doubt it honestly. It's not as bad as other franchises but the end result will be the same: Not every team will contend for the championship.

GREATNESS ONE
05-08-2018, 12:37 PM
Yes.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 12:38 PM
They likely reach the Finals if Bron isn't their opponent. I'd consider trading DeRozan and gauge the market but I don't think this team can compete vs a strong Celtics team and a Philly squad growing in the future. But let's face it: They were never going to beat the Warriors anyways. Rockets? Maybe but I doubt it honestly. It's not as bad as other franchises but the end result will be the same: Not every team will contend for the championship.

That is true but #1 seed and you be going out to Bron again 2 years in a row in the 2nd round. No excuses and no exceptions time to blow up the team.

TrueFan420
05-08-2018, 12:39 PM
Yes and they should have done it sooner.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 12:41 PM
Yes and they should have done it sooner.

Damn right they should have but they just don't have what it takes to beat Bron...not to mention my Celtics if we are healthy and at full strength we are a title contender same with the Sixers who are one big name away from competing in the East

Raptors don't have enough pieces to compete

PERIOD.

mightybosstone
05-08-2018, 12:42 PM
I'm very torn on this. I think the likelihood that Toronto is going to win a championship with the core players as constructed is very low. However, this is undoubtedly the best team the Raptors has every had in the franchise's history, and they're not so far from contention that they couldn't feasibly have gotten into the finals this season if they had played a little better in this series.

And if Lebron were to move teams or suddenly dropoff productivity-wise, they're probably the second most complete team in the East aside from a Boston team with a healthy Kyrie and Hayward (which we've yet to see).

Gun to my head, I don't think it's realistic for the Raptors to win a championship with this core, but I don't think they should blow it up either. They're too talented and have had too much success in recent years to blow it up for the unknown. The likelihood that they would be back here with a team this talented in the next 5-10 years is really, really low. And you never know in the NBA. A young guy could make a jump in his progression or they could make a small signing that could put this team over the top. Or there could be injuries or changes to the rest of the East that suddenly puts the Raptors in the Finals next season. They're too close, IMO, to just blow it all up at this point.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 12:48 PM
I'm very torn on this. I think the likelihood that Toronto is going to win a championship with the core players as constructed is very low. However, this is undoubtedly the best team the Raptors has every had in the franchise's history, and they're not so far from contention that they couldn't feasibly have gotten into the finals this season if they had played a little better in this series.

And if Lebron were to move teams or suddenly dropoff productivity-wise, they're probably the second most complete team in the East aside from a Boston team with a healthy Kyrie and Hayward (which we've yet to see).

Gun to my head, I don't think it's realistic for the Raptors to win a championship with this core, but I don't think they should blow it up either. They're too talented and have had too much success in recent years to blow it up for the unknown. The likelihood that they would be back here with a team this talented in the next 5-10 years is really, really low. And you never know in the NBA. A young guy could make a jump in his progression or they could make a small signing that could put this team over the top. Or there could be injuries or changes to the rest of the East that suddenly puts the Raptors in the Finals next season. They're too close, IMO, to just blow it all up at this point.

How are they close? Not even close like what you talkin 'bout? Raptors need a makeover because with this core group y'all ain't winning no titles certainly not in this lifetime. Only way you compete is getting a big name or 2 via trade or free agency flat out.

Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 12:51 PM
I'm very torn on this. I think the likelihood that Toronto is going to win a championship with the core players as constructed is very low. However, this is undoubtedly the best team the Raptors has every had in the franchise's history, and they're not so far from contention that they couldn't feasibly have gotten into the finals this season if they had played a little better in this series.

And if Lebron were to move teams or suddenly dropoff productivity-wise, they're probably the second most complete team in the East aside from a Boston team with a healthy Kyrie and Hayward (which we've yet to see).

Gun to my head, I don't think it's realistic for the Raptors to win a championship with this core, but I don't think they should blow it up either. They're too talented and have had too much success in recent years to blow it up for the unknown. The likelihood that they would be back here with a team this talented in the next 5-10 years is really, really low. And you never know in the NBA. A young guy could make a jump in his progression or they could make a small signing that could put this team over the top. Or there could be injuries or changes to the rest of the East that suddenly puts the Raptors in the Finals next season. They're too close, IMO, to just blow it all up at this point.

yeah, i don't know what they can do to change things but if we are buying into Lebron James as the possible best player in the history of the game, then the Raptors are as close as you can get without one upping him. i don't think you can walk away from that because you are aren't beating James or the Warriors either way but if you stay tough and get internal improvement from JV who is still only 25, and perhaps most importantly Anunoby and Vanvleet you might be able to step right one when James starts to fade.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 12:54 PM
Raptors simply put are a regular season team they don't have what it takes playoffs wise to win a title. Only way is free agency and trades adding to that core plain and simple. You have had how many realistic chances to win with this same group of guys and y'all can't get it done when it matters.

SfgiantsJD3
05-08-2018, 01:09 PM
So if LeBron moves to the West what do the Raptors do?

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:17 PM
So if LeBron moves to the West what do the Raptors do?

I would still blow the team up because this team realistically can't win titles right now or even in the future with the core they have. In some ways they remind me a lot of the Bulls teams coached by Thibs. All potential and no substance.

Chronz
05-08-2018, 01:17 PM
Lowry for Bledsoe/maker or for Wiggins or Jabari.

Send derpzen and ibaka to the Lakers or clippers for picks.

Run a post up heavy offense around val for kicks


But that's only if I didn't enjoy their success this year, which is crazy imo. They were a 60 win club just about, keep it together

mightybosstone
05-08-2018, 01:19 PM
How are they close? Not even close like what you talkin 'bout? Raptors need a makeover because with this core group y'all ain't winning no titles certainly not in this lifetime. Only way you compete is getting a big name or 2 via trade or free agency flat out.

First off... "Y'all?" You realize I'm a Rockets fan, right? I figured my location, my signature and my decade of posting in this forum as an obvious Rockets fan for the last 11 years was a dead giveaway. Maybe don't assume that just because someone has a positive thing to say about a team that he/she is necessarily a fan of that team. Believe it or not, not everything you have to say about a team that isn't your's has to be negative.

As for the Raptors (which again, I have no affiliation with whatsoever), you assume that completely blowing it up is the only way to win a title. That's simply not true. Right now they have accumulated a lot of quality assets, and Masai Ujiri is a very smart, talented guy. If the right move comes along, the Raptors could become the best team in the East. Hell, they just had the best record in the conference. It's just a matter of them bringing that regular season success to the postseason.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:22 PM
First off... "Y'all?" You realize I'm a Rockets fan, right? I figured my location, my signature and my decade of posting in this forum as an obvious Rockets fan for the last 11 years was a dead giveaway. Maybe don't assume that just because someone has a positive thing to say about a team that he/she is necessarily a fan of that team. Believe it or not, not everything you have to say about a team that isn't your's has to be negative.

As for the Raptors (which again, I have no affiliation with whatsoever), you assume that completely blowing it up is the only way to win a title. That's simply not true. Right now they have accumulated a lot of quality assets, and Masai Ujiri is a very smart, talented guy. If the right move comes along, the Raptors could become the best team in the East. Hell, they just had the best record in the conference. It's just a matter of them bringing that regular season success to the postseason.

I apologize for that and being a Rockets fan you guys are practically 1 name away from winning it all or at least dethroning the Warriors

Same cannot be said for those Baby Dinos in the East who can't even dethrone Cleveland

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:25 PM
Lowry for Bledsoe/maker or for Wiggins or Jabari.

Send derpzen and ibaka to the Lakers or clippers for picks.

Run a post up heavy offense around val for kicks


But that's only if I didn't enjoy their success this year, which is crazy imo. They were a 60 win club just about, keep it together

Trade Lowry to the Spurs along with Powell, JV, Siakam and a draft pick as well as cash consideration to make a run at Kawhi

Then I would trade Ibaka to the Lakers for Julius Randle or to the Clippers to make a run at Lou Will

JLynn943
05-08-2018, 01:27 PM
It's tough to blow up a winning team because it's hard to become one. Kings blew it up over a decade ago and haven't gotten close to the level they were at.

Test the trade market for sure, but to properly blow it up and start over takes commitment to losing. You've got to be the worst and be lucky enough to hit on a few players at the top of drafts to be a contender. That's hard to do right.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:31 PM
It's tough to blow up a winning team because it's hard to become one. Kings blew it up over a decade ago and haven't gotten close to the level they were at.

Test the trade market for sure, but to properly blow it up and start over takes commitment to losing. You've got to be the worst and be lucky enough to hit on a few players at the top of drafts to be a contender. That's hard to do right.

Realistically on trade market come off season big name targets are Kawhi, KD, LeBron, PG-13 and Cousins. None of those guys are going to want to come to Toronto unless you sell off many pieces to make Toronto attractive certainly attractive enough to want to come here.

Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 01:33 PM
Raptors simply put are a regular season team they don't have what it takes playoffs wise to win a title. Only way is free agency and trades adding to that core plain and simple. You have had how many realistic chances to win with this same group of guys and y'all can't get it done when it matters.

right but i'm not so sure you can lump this result in with the rest. i mean, what are we buying into? that Demar can't handle the moment? maybe. but Kyle definitely showed up. the Raptors lost but they did play more as a team and shot the 3 and that was the difference that everyone talked about before the playoffs started. so is it really the same old raps or just the 4th or 5th best team in the NBA got demolished by Lebron Freight Train James.

Vee-Rex
05-08-2018, 01:36 PM
Yeah, don't think the Raps are that close.

A lot depends on what LeBron does in the offseason. Unfortunately, I think it would be terrible for the Raps to plan their offseason around LeBron's decisions.

Might just have to re-tool and give it another crack. It'll be difficult for sure because of their bad contracts. Just gave Norman Powell 42 million for 4 years and he can't even crack the playoff rotation because he played bad this year. Ibaka's getting 20 and he's not worth it.

Here's what I would try to do:

Trade Lowry + Val + Ibaka + Powell (if possible). Aim to get some more grit/length/tweeners that can defend well and play with energy.

Lowry finally had a good playoff run, but I think the Raps should try to use that to cash in on him. He'll be 33 next year, and despite being injury-free for these playoffs, we can't rule out that he won't suffer from another injury. I know his contract is awful but maybe a team will be willing to bite since he just played well and had his best playoff performance in 10 games.

I like Valanciunas but this league is a different league. Time to start trying to build a team that can run the floor all game and be deadly in transition. Val can score but he's too much of a liability on defense and in transition.

Ibaka is trash.

Norm's gotta go just because of his contract. The backcourt is crowded anyway. I'd look to give Wright and FVV more play.

The one thing the Raps did well was transform their offense. The shooting is better and more reliable, unlike past teams with Carroll and 2Pat and Ross that would go on cold streaks and brick open shots left and right. Wright and OG shot impressively from 3 in the playoffs, and I believe FVV would've done the same if not for the shoulder injury.

Van Vleet is a restricted free agent. Bring him back and move forward with the other young guys (Siakam, Wright, Poeltl, OG) while trying to push out the old (Lowry/Ibaka), slow (Valanciunas), and irrelevant (Powell).

I'd look to keep DeRozan as a leader to lead the young guns and get him to improve his game as he has every year.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:42 PM
Lowry, Ibaka, JV and Powell to the Spurs to make a run at Kawhi Leonard...that is what I would do if I'm Masai...dynamic duo with Kawhi and DeRozan I would do it

Or Lowry, Ibaka and JV to the Thunder to get PG-13 via trade

Or trade JV, Ibaka, Powell and Lowry to the Pelicans to make a run at DeMarcus to pair up with DeRozan

Vee-Rex
05-08-2018, 01:44 PM
Yeah, I didn't cover the returning players in my post, but it would be doubly awesome for Toronto if they could bring back some real talent. If not, then just look go bring back young, energetic guys with potential, even if they're not really good right now. I think shipping out the old will help Toronto in the long run.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:46 PM
Yeah, I didn't cover the returning players in my post, but it would be doubly awesome for Toronto if they could bring back some real talent. If not, then just look go bring back young, energetic guys with potential, even if they're not really good right now. I think shipping out the old will help Toronto in the long run.

Yeah that means Lowry, Ibaka, JV are the 3 to get rid of. I would keep Demar.

Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 01:48 PM
Yeah, I didn't cover the returning players in my post, but it would be doubly awesome for Toronto if they could bring back some real talent. If not, then just look go bring back young, energetic guys with potential, even if they're not really good right now. I think shipping out the old will help Toronto in the long run.

i'm not a fan of this idea. it's tough to not get discouraged but blowing this up would feel a lot to me like the GM equivalent of a tantrum. i wanted to win! why didn't we beat them! i mean, the only reason i can justify for making wholesale change is to erase the playoff demons and that is basically allowing Lebron to completely determine your future. they need to come back better. and hope he's worse LMAO.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 01:52 PM
i'm not a fan of this idea. it's tough to not get discouraged but blowing this up would feel a lot to me like the GM equivalent of a tantrum. i wanted to win! why didn't we beat them! i mean, the only reason i can justify for making wholesale change is to erase the playoff demons and that is basically allowing Lebron to completely determine your future. they need to come back better. and hope he's worse LMAO.

Well if you want to get over the hump and get to that next level you have to make wholesale changes point blank period

Vee-Rex
05-08-2018, 01:56 PM
i'm not a fan of this idea. it's tough to not get discouraged but blowing this up would feel a lot to me like the GM equivalent of a tantrum. i wanted to win! why didn't we beat them! i mean, the only reason i can justify for making wholesale change is to erase the playoff demons and that is basically allowing Lebron to completely determine your future. they need to come back better. and hope he's worse LMAO.

Heh, I feel that. I just think the Toronto needs a makeover even not counting for LeBron. Consider that there's still Philly who will get better and Boston who will likely be the best in the East next year. I think getting younger, faster, and more explosive is the right direction.

The goal, ultimately, is to win a championship, which means beating the teams out West. It doesn't look possible unless the Raps get a huge surge of talent, but I guarantee the Warriors and Rockets would run JV and Ibaka off the floor in the finals. I mean, the Cavs + Lue were able to exploit them a bit... I can't imagine what the Warriors + Kerr or Rockets + D'Antoni would do. Those guys gotta go for SURE, IMO.

Edit: I'm a little less certain about trading Lowry for several reasons. But I still would try to cash in on him because he'll likely see a rapid decline soon and you guys got young bucks in the backcourt ready to take that next step. Rozier probably doesn't take that step yet without Kyrie being out.

IndyRealist
05-08-2018, 01:57 PM
The Raptors strength is their bench, and benches matter less in the playoffs when rotations shorten. They need more concentrated talent in their top 6.

I think if you could send DeRozan and half their bench for Kawhi, you jump at that.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 02:00 PM
To ward off Philly and Boston you would have to get rid of bad contracts to clear cap such as Lowry, JV, Ibaka and Powell first and foremost and include 3 or all 4 in a trade package to attract someone like a Kawhi or a Paul George or a DeMarcus Cousins

Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 02:13 PM
Well if you want to get over the hump and get to that next level you have to make wholesale changes point blank periodThe hump is LeBron James. I'm not sure you can get past that without someone similar. Know anyone?

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Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 02:14 PM
The Raptors strength is their bench, and benches matter less in the playoffs when rotations shorten. They need more concentrated talent in their top 6.

I think if you could send DeRozan and half their bench for Kawhi, you jump at that.Yeah, that would be incredible

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Tg11
05-08-2018, 02:15 PM
The hump is LeBron James. I'm not sure you can get past that without someone similar. Know anyone?

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No but if you can add someone like Paul George, Kawhi or Cousins to Lowry and DeRozan you would have a hell of a shot

mrblisterdundee
05-08-2018, 02:37 PM
I don't even know how they'd blow it up. Who wants a bunch of overpaid players who tend to fade in the biggest moments?
Honestly, they might be better off and have an easier time trying to retool and add another star. Maybe see if the Pistons want to get off Griffin's massive contract in exchange for Ibaka's less massive, shorter contract. Add in Miles and a young guy. Take the risk on Griffin remaining healthy for the reward of having a real star in the post.

pacofunk64
05-08-2018, 02:43 PM
DeRozen and Lowry proved that they are B players in disguise. They need to try and move one of them for an A player. Don't know how but that would be your best bet.

aman_13
05-08-2018, 02:44 PM
I don't even know how they'd blow it up. Who wants a bunch of overpaid players who tend to fade in the biggest moments?
Honestly, they might be better off and have an easier time trying to retool and add another star. Maybe see if the Pistons want to get off Griffin's massive contract in exchange for Ibaka's less massive, shorter contract. Add in Miles and a young guy. Take the risk on Griffin remaining healthy for the reward of having a real star in the post.

If that is realistic, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

WestCoastSportz
05-08-2018, 02:52 PM
The Raptors need a better bench and a better front court. Ibaka, Valanciunas and Anunoby hasn't exactly been the the most consistent starting front court. They don't have that one 6th man to come in and be consistent either. Some nights, its Van Fleet. Another night, it could be Delon Wright or Pascal Siakam. You just never know what you're going to get off the bench.

BKLYNpigeon
05-08-2018, 02:56 PM
No.

Just think about the Mavericks. They hung in There all those years with dirk wining 50 games. eventually they got lucky and beat The Heat and a Mentally Fragile Lebron James.

Cant blame the Raptors all that much. Lebron has owned the East for the last 7 years.


Its really hard to build a 55 win team. They have some nice young pieces that will develop.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2018, 03:17 PM
If Lebron leaves the East, the Raptors have a shot. But honestly, they probably still lose to the Celtics anyway. Tatum is only gonna get better.

WestCoastSportz
05-08-2018, 03:40 PM
Kyle Lowry is the big albatross on that payroll. He's making $31M next year and $33M the following year. He's the 6th highest paid player in the league, yet he's not a top 20 player. At 16 points, 6.9 assists and 5.6 rebounds I'm not even sure he's a top 10 point guard and he's not getting any younger. He'll be 33 years old next season. They're pretty much stuck with him until next year when teams will be looking for a huge expiring contract.

Unless their willing to trade Derozan, this team is going to stay the way it is for the next couple of years. Their only move is to get rid of Casey and replace him with a coach that can really manage this team's minutes.

Jenceman
05-08-2018, 04:12 PM
Nah LeBron is gonna go out west this offseason. Give it another crack next year.


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Heediot
05-08-2018, 04:24 PM
Ride it out with the two years on DD/Kyle/Ibaka. GS is probably taking the next 2 anyway. Make money by killing the regular season, getting home court and 2-3 rounds of playoff ball. Toronto fans will stilll pay top dollar to see them choke in may.

One trade that might be possible is an Ibaka for Milsap kind of trade. I think both teams can utilize the player they get in the trade better. Try to trade Jonas for a mobile big.

in 2 years 80 million comes off the books, which will be nice for a rebuild.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 04:36 PM
Nah LeBron is gonna go out west this offseason. Give it another crack next year.


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You really think LeBron is gonna go out West? If he does then the only teams he would go to realistically are the Lakers, Clippers or Rockets

Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 04:38 PM
No but if you can add someone like Paul George, Kawhi or Cousins to Lowry and DeRozan you would have a hell of a shotKawhi is the only one of those guys that I think makes sense and/or improves your chances, and there are wayyy too many questions there to consider it. Although, if Masai can answer some of those questions I expect him to make some sort of offer.

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Tg11
05-08-2018, 04:40 PM
Trades I would do if it were me:

Ibaka to the Nuggets for Paul Millsap or Jokic

JV, Powell, Wright and Lowry as well as cash considerations to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard

Pair up DeRozan with Kawhi and with either Millsap or Jokic in Toronto...winning combo if you ask me

FlashBolt
05-08-2018, 04:42 PM
You really think LeBron is gonna go out West? If he does then the only teams he would go to realistically are the Lakers, Clippers or Rockets

I think LeBron will go to: Philly, Spurs, Lakers, Houston, or Cavs. I don't know which and it's purely speculative to assume at this point but I can see an interesting argument for each side outside of the Cavs. The only incentive for him to stay with Cleveland is that's his hometown. The team is just salary-strapped with contracts that won't entice teams. Maybe they can trade that pick and get another All-Star on the team but it's going to be fairly difficult to do so.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 04:46 PM
I think LeBron will go to: Philly, Spurs, Lakers, Houston, or Cavs. I don't know which and it's purely speculative to assume at this point but I can see an interesting argument for each side outside of the Cavs. The only incentive for him to stay with Cleveland is that's his hometown. The team is just salary-strapped with contracts that won't entice teams. Maybe they can trade that pick and get another All-Star on the team but it's going to be fairly difficult to do so.

That is true but at the same time with Bron in the East he has a clear path to the Finals every year whereas if he went out West and changed conferences to the West he would see the Warriors in the 2nd round or Conference Finals. No way LeBron does that. LeBron is too smart to do that.

KingstonHawke
05-08-2018, 04:49 PM
Anyone even considering this idea is an idiot. Y'all forget that basketball is a business. This season was amazing for them. Just because it ended horribly doesn't mean they are better off being the Pacers.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 04:52 PM
Anyone even considering this idea is an idiot. Y'all forget that basketball is a business. This season was amazing for them. Just because it ended horribly doesn't mean they are better off being the Pacers.

Yes it does actually because with this same core for 5 plus years and y'all still can't get **** done then yeah you need to blow the team up

aman_13
05-08-2018, 04:53 PM
Anyone even considering this idea is an idiot. Y'all forget that basketball is a business. This season was amazing for them. Just because it ended horribly doesn't mean they are better off being the Pacers.

Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.

FlashBolt
05-08-2018, 04:57 PM
That is true but at the same time with Bron in the East he has a clear path to the Finals every year whereas if he went out West and changed conferences to the West he would see the Warriors in the 2nd round or Conference Finals. No way LeBron does that. LeBron is too smart to do that.

There is a reason to do that: By joining the West, you gotta by default imply that LeBron is joining a better team than he would have by joining a team in the East. Simple observation would tell you that the better players/talent are mostly in the West. So not only would LeBron have a better team but he'd be in a situation where he could see his Finals record improve. Let's face it: Whoever beats the Warriors in the WC playoffs will likely be the winner of the championship. It'll be like the Lakers 1999-2002 all over again where the Finals was just a massacre for the Lakers.

mnatiq
05-08-2018, 04:57 PM
I'm very torn on this. I think the likelihood that Toronto is going to win a championship with the core players as constructed is very low. However, this is undoubtedly the best team the Raptors has every had in the franchise's history, and they're not so far from contention that they couldn't feasibly have gotten into the finals this season if they had played a little better in this series.

And if Lebron were to move teams or suddenly dropoff productivity-wise, they're probably the second most complete team in the East aside from a Boston team with a healthy Kyrie and Hayward (which we've yet to see).

Gun to my head, I don't think it's realistic for the Raptors to win a championship with this core, but I don't think they should blow it up either. They're too talented and have had too much success in recent years to blow it up for the unknown. The likelihood that they would be back here with a team this talented in the next 5-10 years is really, really low. And you never know in the NBA. A young guy could make a jump in his progression or they could make a small signing that could put this team over the top. Or there could be injuries or changes to the rest of the East that suddenly puts the Raptors in the Finals next season. They're too close, IMO, to just blow it all up at this point.

Well said.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 04:58 PM
Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was the GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

I wouldn't say Casey is the problem but more the players are not the coach. They need to make serious changes as far as trades and free agency to compete or to even have a prayer of dethroning LeBron, Embiid or even Kyrie in the East.

canzano55
05-08-2018, 05:26 PM
What I've learned from following the NBA for many years now is that rebuilding only works when everything is stacked together perfectly i.e right draft picks leads to right team makeup leads to right coaching leads to championship contention. Basically you're constantly playing inside of the roulette spread hoping to land your numbers as opposed to risking less on the outside bets.

That's why the NBA is such a cruel business because unless you have the institutional temperament to be terrible for long periods, you're likely not landing that marquee player.

Toronto is similar to New York in the sense that there's too much local business to gamble with so unless there's a sure-fire plan in place to get better within a certain time frame then they're not willing to risk being bad because of the money being made.

In the grand scheme of things NBA championships are such a fantasy because of how basketball is played and the NBA is set-up.

Beyond all that; the way the Raptors lost in this series was nothing short of disgraceful. I don't care that LeBron is amazing - that was nothing new and expected; what was unexpected was letting the Cavs shoot one of the most rdiculous percentages I've ever seen in the playoffs. This series was a bloody mess; it was a terrible NBA product from a first seed team and not only are Toronto sports content providers ashamed but even peope at ESPN and TNT were perplexed by the extent of this calamity.

Casey is the sacrificial lamb in all this and regrettably so. As for the team I'm afraid the most logical thing to do is let this cycle play itself out for another three years (most for the reasons I gave above). It doesn't make sene to trade assets when there is no equal value out there to be had.

Would the fans tolerate it? Hardcore NBA fans like myself wouldn't but fortunately for owners, Toronto is filled with enough idiots who are from money to fill seats and so that's all they really care about.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 05:32 PM
Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.

By blowing the team up I mean trades and free agency by clearing cap space to compete and putting together trade packages to lure big names to Toronto

It ain't like Toronto don't have the money MLSE is one of the most richest industries sports wise and NBA wise as well so I don't understand why Toronto doesn't buy their way to an NBA title

Tg11
05-08-2018, 05:37 PM
Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.


There is a reason to do that: By joining the West, you gotta by default imply that LeBron is joining a better team than he would have by joining a team in the East. Simple observation would tell you that the better players/talent are mostly in the West. So not only would LeBron have a better team but he'd be in a situation where he could see his Finals record improve. Let's face it: Whoever beats the Warriors in the WC playoffs will likely be the winner of the championship. It'll be like the Lakers 1999-2002 all over again where the Finals was just a massacre for the Lakers.

Yeah but LeBron ain't leaving the East so it is a moot point and even if he does go out West the only teams I could see him going to in the West are the Lakers, Clippers, Spurs or Rockets the only 4 teams I could see him going to but that's about it

If LeBron stays in the East...clear path especially if he stays in Cleveland or if he goes to Philadelphia or Milwaukee because it has been discussed but I could see him going to New York because it is a big market

FlashBolt
05-08-2018, 05:38 PM
By blowing the team up I mean trades and free agency by clearing cap space to compete and putting together trade packages to lure big names to Toronto

It ain't like Toronto don't have the money MLSE is one of the most richest industries sports wise and NBA wise as well so I don't understand why Toronto doesn't buy their way to an NBA title

You can't buy your way into an NBA title. There's a salary cap, you know. And no owner in their right mind will pay the luxury tax unless they have the right players. Assuming the overhaul you are suggesting, you are insane if you think it's that simple. Warriors took years and were insanely lucky with drafting to achieve what they are capable of now. Something that may seem trivial such as a team drafting a different player with the 10th pick can affect how drafting ends up in the 28th pick.. and Warriors lucked out drafting Draymond. And Klay. And Curry.

Mell413
05-08-2018, 05:40 PM
I wouldn't trade KL and DD. I would give it another go. Not saying their odds are great, but I think if you have a 5% chance to win I would go for it. Maybe Detroit decides to rebuild and Drummond and Blake can be had. I think we could see some teams decide to rebuild. Maybe they can capitalize on that.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 05:41 PM
Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.

Even so Toronto if they want to compete at least sign a big name or 2 or get a big name or 2 during free agency

Tg11
05-08-2018, 05:45 PM
Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.


I wouldn't trade KL and DD. I would give it another go. Not saying their odds are great, but I think if you have a 5% chance to win I would go for it. Maybe Detroit decides to rebuild and Drummond and Blake can be had. I think we could see some teams decide to rebuild. Maybe they can capitalize on that.

If I were Masai I would go after Drummond or Blake Griffin preferably Blake Griffin to partner up with DeRozan and Lowry; built in Big 3 with those 3 players you get an explosive player like Blake when healthy he's a perennial all star and put him with 2 other all stars plus effective role players Toronto would be a threat in the East.

With Drummond you get rim protection for a big plus he puts up numbers offensively as well. Add him with DeRozan and Lowry. Pretty effective.

Tg11
05-08-2018, 05:49 PM
I would do JV to the Pistons to get Drummond...well trade JV, Powell and Ibaka

Or if I'm getting Griffin trade Ibaka, JV, Van Vleet and cash considerations

Legitimate
05-08-2018, 05:52 PM
Can't just blow up a team that nearly won 60 games, however there is some much needed change that needs to happen with this team. In the dying minutes raptors had to call a time out just because they couldn't pass the ball with all those horrendous defenders on this cavs squad, bs man Casey needs to go, he keeps getting out coached in close games and he's just a product of the awesome team masai put together. any coach in the league could get these players a 50 win team simple as that.

Retool in the offseason, lowry isn't clutch so try trade him for someonewho is clutch or just give the keys to vanvleet because i think he deserves it and he could come a lot cheaper. another year of aunouby poetl siakim and delon, we will be a better team next year guaranteed so it would make zero sense to blow it up, even if we traded derozan and lowry ibaka for picks we would still make the playoffs so its impossible for us to tank, lol. I say make a big trade and keep anuoby, poetl unless it can land you a super star everyone should be available for trade and build around derozan we need him since he always works on his game in the offseason.

my 2 cents

Tg11
05-08-2018, 05:58 PM
Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.


Can't just blow up a team that nearly won 60 games, however there is some much needed change that needs to happen with this team. In the dying minutes raptors had to call a time out just because they couldn't pass the ball with all those horrendous defenders on this cavs squad, bs man Casey needs to go, he keeps getting out coached in close games and he's just a product of the awesome team masai put together. any coach in the league could get these players a 50 win team simple as that.

Retool in the offseason, lowry isn't clutch so try trade him for someonewho is clutch or just give the keys to vanvleet because i think he deserves it and he could come a lot cheaper. another year of aunouby poetl siakim and delon, we will be a better team next year guaranteed so it would make zero sense to blow it up, even if we traded derozan and lowry ibaka for picks we would still make the playoffs so its impossible for us to tank, lol. I say make a big trade and keep anuoby, poetl unless it can land you a super star everyone should be available for trade and build around derozan we need him since he always works on his game in the offseason.

my 2 cents

I say trade Lowry, Ibaka and JV those 3 I would trade specifically to the Spurs to get Kawhi; pair him up with DeRozan

Or trade those 3 to Detroit Pistons for Blake Griffin and pair him up with DeRozan

LeonFSU
05-08-2018, 06:03 PM
Trades I would do if it were me:

Ibaka to the Nuggets for Paul Millsap or Jokic

JV, Powell, Wright and Lowry as well as cash considerations to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard

Pair up DeRozan with Kawhi and with either Millsap or Jokic in Toronto...winning combo if you ask me

None of these trades are happening. Ibaka, Lowry, and Powell are overpaid on long-term contracts. How do they trade them for Kawhi or Jokic? Even if the Nuggets wanted to move Millsap, it would be pretty illogical to trade him for a lesser player in Ibaka who would be a worse fit with Jokic.

Legitimate
05-08-2018, 06:56 PM
None of these trades are happening. Ibaka, Lowry, and Powell are overpaid on long-term contracts. How do they trade them for Kawhi or Jokic? Even if the Nuggets wanted to move Millsap, it would be pretty illogical to trade him for a lesser player in Ibaka who would be a worse fit with Jokic.

they might be overpaid, even though considering that they still are good contracts, there will be tons of teams interested in a vet on an expiring deal, someone who wants to unload some assets for proven vets they would be getting cap relief at the same time. I know masai will work his magic in the offseason, he's constructed one of the best teams in the new era of basketball and its only going to improve from here.

Legitimate
05-08-2018, 07:03 PM
sign and trade for paul george in the offseason, i know hes reportedly interested in going to LA and what not, but who knows, for sure finals appearance every year guaranteed if he comes north of the border, and who's to say who ever signs him will be able to properly put talent around him like masai? after all the raps are committed to winning.

there's a small chance that the raptors might blow the team up as well, but i wanna see a proven playoff coach at the helm before we go that route because i watched every single rap playoff game and i just can't stand the way casey runs plays in critical moments, he's costed us many playoff losses and thats not on the players thats on him.

KingstonHawke
05-08-2018, 07:21 PM
Yes it does actually because with this same core for 5 plus years and y'all still can't get **** done then yeah you need to blow the team up

If LeBron sprained his ankle they most likely go to the finals and lose to Warriors. The press alone would've been invaluable.


Yeah it would be foolish to blow it up. It can take forever to get back to this point.

But they do have to make a serious change. It can't be the same team again. Ideally they add another impact player.

There is already a lot of speculation that Casey will be let go.

If he wins coach of the year, the last person to win coach of the year and lose his job is George Karl. Who was their GM back then? Masai Ujiri.

Although Masai didn't make that decision.

I agree. They do need to make a move. And for me it would be to try and get younger and less exspensive without blowing up the team. As much as I like Lowry, he's the one I'd center a deal around. There are a lot of teams that would love his services, and they could get some good young perimiter play for him.

I don't think the Lakers are going to land the big FAs people think they have a chance at. So he could make a phenomenal concilation prize. Take Deng off their hands as long as they include Ball and Hart.. and then could probably still flip Hart with Miles to a third team for a wing.

This trade is a loose example of that... http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycwvac4u

Jamiecballer
05-08-2018, 08:40 PM
The Raptors need a better bench and a better front court. Ibaka, Valanciunas and Anunoby hasn't exactly been the the most consistent starting front court. They don't have that one 6th man to come in and be consistent either. Some nights, its Van Fleet. Another night, it could be Delon Wright or Pascal Siakam. You just never know what you're going to get off the bench.Uhhhh that part about the bench sounds like you are new to this. They have a great bench. Every night the bench makes a huge contribution this is pretty much what every coach jerks off to

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mrblisterdundee
05-08-2018, 10:51 PM
What if the Raptors could make a run at Kawhi Leonard? Sacrifice Valanciunas, Anunoby, Wright, Siakam and a pick for a chance at a new alpha to lead Toronto's band of betas. San Antonio gets three young pieces if Kawhi doesn't sign his super-max. Kawhi gets a bigger city and an international market close to New York.

ewing
05-08-2018, 11:05 PM
Yes, not only are they mediocre they are boring

pebloemer
05-09-2018, 10:05 AM
Trade one of Lowry or DeRozan and trade one of Ibaka or Valanciunas. Ibaka is too slow to play PF in today's NBA and I don't exactly see a higher peak from the Lowry/DeRozan backcourt.

Raptors have about 90 million invested in the above 4 players. It is hard to add anything of significance to the team without changing the core group.

Jamiecballer
05-09-2018, 12:16 PM
What if the Raptors could make a run at Kawhi Leonard? Sacrifice Valanciunas, Anunoby, Wright, Siakam and a pick for a chance at a new alpha to lead Toronto's band of betas. San Antonio gets three young pieces if Kawhi doesn't sign his super-max. Kawhi gets a bigger city and an international market close to New York.I would slit my throat over such a deal. Like could you have picked any more of the young guys I like? If I'm making a deal like than it's early next season after I have seen kawhi on the court for a long time.

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WestCoastSportz
05-09-2018, 12:31 PM
Trades I would do if it were me:

Ibaka to the Nuggets for Paul Millsap or Jokic

JV, Powell, Wright and Lowry as well as cash considerations to the Spurs for Kawhi Leonard

Pair up DeRozan with Kawhi and with either Millsap or Jokic in Toronto...winning combo if you ask me

No way in the world would Denver give up Jokic for Ibaka. Jokic has become one of the top 5 centers in the league at 23 years old and only makes $1.5M a year while Ibaka makes $20M a year so the salaries don't come close to adding up. And in the your Spurs scenario, the key player they'd be getting is Lowry, but why would they want a point guard that makes $32M when they have a nice young player in Dejonte Murray? Another trade that would never happen. They're not going to get much value in return for Lowry.

Something in the lines of Lowry to the Clippers for Gallinari is more feasible of a trade. Or taking on bigger contracts in order to get one young player with upside. Lowry to the Suns for Bender, Alan Williams and Chandler would be a deal like that.

mightybosstone
05-09-2018, 01:03 PM
I would slit my throat over such a deal. Like could you have picked any more of the young guys I like? If I'm making a deal like than it's early next season after I have seen kawhi on the court for a long time.

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You and I have VERY different opinions of this deal. I look at that deal and think "Toronto isn't giving up nearly enough." You look at it and go "This makes me want to slit my wrists." I kinda think this is the case of you looking at your players through the lenses of some homer glasses, but I could be wrong. If Toronto could somehow add Leonard without giving up Lowry, Derozan or Ibaka, that would be insane.

Personally, I think the Spurs hang up the phone unless one of Derozan or Lowry is involved.

Jamiecballer
05-09-2018, 01:30 PM
You and I have VERY different opinions of this deal. I look at that deal and think "Toronto isn't giving up nearly enough." You look at it and go "This makes me want to slit my wrists." I kinda think this is the case of you looking at your players through the lenses of some homer glasses, but I could be wrong. If Toronto could somehow add Leonard without giving up Lowry, Derozan or Ibaka, that would be insane.

Personally, I think the Spurs hang up the phone unless one of Derozan or Lowry is involved.

let's be clear about something here - that's probably because we have such different opinions on Derozan and Lowry because i think if you can get Leonard by giving up one of Lowry or Derozan, preferably Derozan than it's a no brainer. i want to keep the developing assets.

mrblisterdundee
05-09-2018, 02:32 PM
You and I have VERY different opinions of this deal. I look at that deal and think "Toronto isn't giving up nearly enough." You look at it and go "This makes me want to slit my wrists." I kinda think this is the case of you looking at your players through the lenses of some homer glasses, but I could be wrong. If Toronto could somehow add Leonard without giving up Lowry, Derozan or Ibaka, that would be insane.
Personally, I think the Spurs hang up the phone unless one of Derozan or Lowry is involved.

Why? The whole point of my trade proposal is getting an alpha in Toronto. Neither Lowry nor DeRozan are good enough to lead a contender. Why would San Antonio want to pay either of their contracts.
My trade proposal gives the Spurs a collection of smaller contracts and young guys to start rebuilding around. Meanwhile, it gives Toronto the best chance they've ever had at beating LeBron.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
05-09-2018, 02:50 PM
I'd keep it going. Lowry and DD got their money. Might as well trade some bench pieces with a starter to upgrade the starting unit. If it was time to tank Raptors should of traded off DD and Lowry before they got the new contracts. But Raptors #1 for the east in regular season. Might as well ride it out now. I read somewhere coach Casey could be fired though. Even though Casey is a candidate for coach of the year. Casey was in place before Masai was hired.

majmarcus
05-09-2018, 05:22 PM
I dont necessarily know about blowing the team up. But I'll tell you what man...I like Demar...but that cat gonna have to step something up there. I dont recall the last time I've seen a defensive highlight of him and while he's cool offensively...there's something missing with that guy.

Its almost like...or looks like he wants to lead, but not really. There are better 2's in the league and I'm not exactly saying his type of player borders a beast of a six man...but if Im building a championship contender...he can backup whomever my starter is at that position.

Idk what it is but he seems to lack a fire of somesort...idk

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zn23
05-09-2018, 10:59 PM
What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

What's going to change when they bring every back?

I'd rather them start over than be the 5th best team in the East every year.

They're basically going to have to hope that LeBron gets old eventually. By then , maybe they can beat the Cavs. But it's not just LeBron they're up against. The Sixers are going to be better and the Celtics are definitely going to be better.

hugepatsfan
05-09-2018, 11:40 PM
They won’t win a title but from a business perspective being so relevant and getting home playoff revenue is too much to pass up.

TO Rapz
05-10-2018, 12:21 AM
Yeah the thing is we're looking at it from a logical fan's POV. Basketball is about winning but the business side matters too. Toronto's put out the most successful 4-5 year stretch of basketball in their history. So its almost like the first 90 ish games (since we normally take our first series to game 7 anyways) is good enough from a revenue perspective to absorb the embarrassment that ends up being the last 4 games.


Look, Toronto is an awkward spot, asset wise. Derozan is the complete opposite of a modern NBA player. Cant shoot from distance, plays with his head down (improved as playmaker this year big time tho), doesn't impact the game defensively or in any other way if hes not scoring (lack of flexibility/matchups). Derozan is not only not a first option, I don't think hes a 2 either. I just think its really hard to build a winning culture around a player like Demar because of his style of play.

When you consider the NBA, its like this. You get 2-3 max slots depending on how your team salary structure is. Now its upto you if youre gona use your maxs on a player like Demar Derozan.. or if you wana pay Otto 20M... or if you wana pay Kanter 20M.. etc, OR, if you're going to save those slots for a true talent that deserves to be paid the top money. Is it hard to acquire that talent? Absolutely. But ****, if you don't have it or you cant acquire it, and you are NOT a rebuilding team who strictly needs assets to flip... then what are you doing if youre not using those maxes on a top 10 player? The Houston Rockets are the epitome of how the a current NBA team should be run. Starting from the coaching, to the style of play, to the way Morey works. The only thing theyre missing is players get upset sometimes cus theyre traded like assets and flipped like its NBA2K18, but who cares.

In the NBA, if youre not Golden State or Cleveland right now (only because theyre in the East and Lebron has once again proven its his conference until he ages/leaves), you're not a contender. The only other team I'd say is close is Houston.. who again, save their maxs for 2 top 10 players.


So as a fan, blow it up, were in a treadmill. But knowing Masai, he will stay the course. Maybe he'll fire Casey (deservedly so), but he then has to further make some moves. When I said the Raptors are in an awkward spot, I mean roster wise: Derozan, Lowry and Ibaka are all awful contracts. Ibaka I don't think anyone would trade for. Kyle is the best player of the 3 but makes 30M. Derozans blah and makes 27. Then you have cheap, young, controllable assets to play with. FVV, Delon, Siakham, Norman (10M next season but still has value, tho its at its lowest), Poetl, OG. Then you have JV too. Theres something in that group to work with in terms of trade pieces, especially if you find someone who values Derozan, Lowry or Ibaka.

FlashBolt
05-10-2018, 12:24 AM
When I say blow it up, I'm referring to if you want to win a championship. This roster ain't going to do it, sorry. But the reality is, at least 25 teams ain't doing it at all. Warriors, Spurs, Rockets, Celtics, and then possibly whichever team LeBron is in. The shameful part of the Raptors is they just seem to give up vs LeBron and that's why everyone laughs at them but in reality, they never had a shot at the championship anyways. If they convinced anyone, I'm sorry but you are gullible. There is no valid trade out there that would turn the Raptors into contenders. No one wants Lowry's bad contract and DeRozan's lack of shooting will turn many teams away.

FlashBolt
05-10-2018, 12:29 AM
Yeah the thing is we're looking at it from a logical fan's POV. Basketball is about winning but the business side matters too. Toronto's put out the most successful 4-5 year stretch of basketball in their history. So its almost like the first 90 ish games (since we normally take our first series to game 7 anyways) is good enough from a revenue perspective to absorb the embarrassment that ends up being the last 4 games.


Look, Toronto is an awkward spot, asset wise. Derozan is the complete opposite of a modern NBA player. Cant shoot from distance, plays with his head down (improved as playmaker this year big time tho), doesn't impact the game defensively or in any other way if hes not scoring (lack of flexibility/matchups). Derozan is not only not a first option, I don't think hes a 2 either. I just think its really hard to build a winning culture around a player like Demar because of his style of play.

When you consider the NBA, its like this. You get 2-3 max slots depending on how your team salary structure is. Now its upto you if youre gona use your maxs on a player like Demar Derozan.. or if you wana pay Otto 20M... or if you wana pay Kanter 20M.. etc, OR, if you're going to save those slots for a true talent that deserves to be paid the top money. Is it hard to acquire that talent? Absolutely. But ****, if you don't have it or you cant acquire it, and you are NOT a rebuilding team who strictly needs assets to flip... then what are you doing if youre not using those maxes on a top 10 player? The Houston Rockets are the epitome of how the a current NBA team should be run. Starting from the coaching, to the style of play, to the way Morey works. The only thing theyre missing is players get upset sometimes cus theyre traded like assets and flipped like its NBA2K18, but who cares.

In the NBA, if youre not Golden State or Cleveland right now (only because theyre in the East and Lebron has once again proven its his conference until he ages/leaves), you're not a contender. The only other team I'd say is close is Houston.. who again, save their maxs for 2 top 10 players.


So as a fan, blow it up, were in a treadmill. But knowing Masai, he will stay the course. Maybe he'll fire Casey (deservedly so), but he then has to further make some moves. When I said the Raptors are in an awkward spot, I mean roster wise: Derozan, Lowry and Ibaka are all awful contracts. Ibaka I don't think anyone would trade for. Kyle is the best player of the 3 but makes 30M. Derozans blah and makes 27. Then you have cheap, young, controllable assets to play with. FVV, Delon, Siakham, Norman (10M next season but still has value, tho its at its lowest), Poetl, OG. Then you have JV too. Theres something in that group to work with in terms of trade pieces, especially if you find someone who values Derozan, Lowry or Ibaka.

I agree but I think what leads people to believing Raptors can do something special is because they win regular season games and then wet the bed in the playoffs. It was almost like they are playing to get decimated by LeBron rather than to win a championship. Your NBA contenders list is quite short. I think Spurs can still get into title contention. I think Rockets have clearly inserted their name in there. I mean, obviously I'd take the Warriors but weirder things have happened in the NBA and so far, Rockets can beat the Warriors but it'll take a lot for that to happen. Boston, IMO, has creeped into that conversation. Gordon, Brown, Kyrie, Tatum, Horford, Rosier.. that roster is no joke. It'll be very rare for Boston to have bad games with the amount of pieces they have at Brad's disposal. And then the other team will depend on what Bron does. If Bron goes to Sixers, add them as contenders. Bron to OKC? Check them as contenders.

TO Rapz
05-10-2018, 12:39 AM
I agree but I think what leads people to believing Raptors can do something special is because they win regular season games and then wet the bed in the playoffs. It was almost like they are playing to get decimated by LeBron rather than to win a championship. Your NBA contenders list is quite short. I think Spurs can still get into title contention. I think Rockets have clearly inserted their name in there. I mean, obviously I'd take the Warriors but weirder things have happened in the NBA and so far, Rockets can beat the Warriors but it'll take a lot for that to happen. Boston, IMO, has creeped into that conversation. Gordon, Brown, Kyrie, Tatum, Horford, Rosier.. that roster is no joke. It'll be very rare for Boston to have bad games with the amount of pieces they have at Brad's disposal. And then the other team will depend on what Bron does. If Bron goes to Sixers, add them as contenders. Bron to OKC? Check them as contenders.

I agree. I would say Golden State is 1 and Houston/Cleveland are 2A/2B with Houston being the better team but Cleveland is in the East. The Celtics actually have more assets than Houston at this point. Capela is awesome but hes gona get paid now. The Celtics got Brown, Rozier, Tatum on cheap rookie deals with Hayward and Kyrie like you said and Horford playing the dad role. The Celtics are the only NBA team that can jump into that contender category. They also have the best coach in the league. I don't think the Spurs will get back there tbh.

TO Rapz
05-10-2018, 12:42 AM
I agree but I think what leads people to believing Raptors can do something special is because they win regular season games and then wet the bed in the playoffs. It was almost like they are playing to get decimated by LeBron rather than to win a championship. Your NBA contenders list is quite short. I think Spurs can still get into title contention. I think Rockets have clearly inserted their name in there. I mean, obviously I'd take the Warriors but weirder things have happened in the NBA and so far, Rockets can beat the Warriors but it'll take a lot for that to happen. Boston, IMO, has creeped into that conversation. Gordon, Brown, Kyrie, Tatum, Horford, Rosier.. that roster is no joke. It'll be very rare for Boston to have bad games with the amount of pieces they have at Brad's disposal. And then the other team will depend on what Bron does. If Bron goes to Sixers, add them as contenders. Bron to OKC? Check them as contenders.
Its funny you say that man cus last offseason, when Casey wasn't fired, there was a culture change in Toronto. In other words, we stopped playing stupid ISO ball and started to have a ball movement system with more 3s. I loved the change. We brought in Miles to help fit that too. All these changes were made to stop Lebron and figure out a way to beat him lmao. Even drafting OG was for that purpose. OG has blossomed but the rationale was, worst case we have a lengthy athletic wing D to throw at him.

The series was more competitive, 2 games could have gone either way. But its not good enough. Caseys gota go and major roster changes are needed.

bucketss
05-10-2018, 01:14 AM
i feel derozan has good value he put up good numbers for a 59 win team, espn article suggested matthews and dallas lottery pick for derozan, thats tempting if we go "blow up" route.

Cal827
05-10-2018, 03:37 AM
Its funny you say that man cus last offseason, when Casey wasn't fired, there was a culture change in Toronto. In other words, we stopped playing stupid ISO ball and started to have a ball movement system with more 3s. I loved the change. We brought in Miles to help fit that too. All these changes were made to stop Lebron and figure out a way to beat him lmao. Even drafting OG was for that purpose. OG has blossomed but the rationale was, worst case we have a lengthy athletic wing D to throw at him.

The series was more competitive, 2 games could have gone either way. But its not good enough. Caseys gota go and major roster changes are needed.

For that alone, Casey should've been fired right after the loss, we made adjustments for him so he can gameplan properly against Lebron James. And of course, like previous seasons, instead of letting him score the points and defend everyone else, or get up on him and create turnovers, they did neither. :laugh2:

You're absolutely right in your other post about it being a business. The revenue that a playoff team generates in Toronto is absolutely huge. Another issue is the ambassador. Unfortunately, Drake's name is plastered over so much of the team. The alternate court, the jerseys, the "Drake Night" that we have. As he is so tied to the team, they would probably worry about "Starting from the Bottom" again, because he also brings in a lot of money to the team. There are so many people here who are now watching basketball because it's associated with Drake, which means that those jerseys sell, they're able to sell out a very expensive game because he'll be there, etc. Back to losing, probably means Drake fades his association with the, which means they'll lose quite a bit of notoriety/revenue from the fairweather fans. So as we both probably want to start from basically scratch, the people in MLSE probably don't want to.

The only possible saving grace would be that since the Maple Leafs are likely going to be Cup contenders over the next few years (if they continue the progression), maybe they'll not notice it much. :laugh2:

Cal827
05-10-2018, 04:22 AM
I agree but I think what leads people to believing Raptors can do something special is because they win regular season games and then wet the bed in the playoffs. It was almost like they are playing to get decimated by LeBron rather than to win a championship. Your NBA contenders list is quite short. I think Spurs can still get into title contention. I think Rockets have clearly inserted their name in there. I mean, obviously I'd take the Warriors but weirder things have happened in the NBA and so far, Rockets can beat the Warriors but it'll take a lot for that to happen. Boston, IMO, has creeped into that conversation. Gordon, Brown, Kyrie, Tatum, Horford, Rosier.. that roster is no joke. It'll be very rare for Boston to have bad games with the amount of pieces they have at Brad's disposal. And then the other team will depend on what Bron does. If Bron goes to Sixers, add them as contenders. Bron to OKC? Check them as contenders.

1000x this. It all means nothing if you **** the bed constantly in the playoffs. But the narrative of the press/reporters/commentators here refuse to accept that. I'm not sure how the sports reporters/commentators are when you watch the Thunder but I'll give you a brief summary of the Raptors commentators over the past 3 seasons:

2016: Lose to the Cavs in the ECF in 6. The commentators played up how they were able to take a couple games from the really strong Cavs team (who I believe was perfect in the playoffs until Games 3/4 in Toronto). They can build on this and next season, maybe they'll be able to beat Cleveland. (At this point, that's fine to think as it was the first crack)

2017 before the series: The Raptors acquired PJ Tucker and Ibaka (two defensive guys... at least at the time) at the deadline in order to try to take Cleveland down. Both teams end at 51-31 but Cleveland has the tiebreaker. Regardless, people expect the series to be another long series, most people picking Cleveland, but in a hard fought 6-7 game series.
Toronto Commentators basically telling the fans that Cleveland will have serious problems handling this lineup. The Raptors are much more ready than they were the season previous. Their bench isn't as good as the Raptors

2017 Second Round: Cleveland Sweeps Toronto, Murdering them in the first three games, and shooting like 45% from 3 for the entire series. We got lit up by Channing ****ing Frye.
Toronto Commentators basically say that the Cavs got hot, got the ref calls, and that the series would've been different if Kyle Lowry didn't have his season ended in game 2, as Derozan had come to play in that series (you know, cause Lowry wasn't ****ing the bed). So as you see, here's an excuse.

2018: Raptors win 59 games, earning the 1 seed in the East, and getting HCA against anyone who isn't named Houston. They also beat Houston both times they met this season. Raptors press play it the hell up: Dominant team, great offense, great defense, great bench... basically ignore when their numbers started to fall pretty badly (I still blame that Thunder win over The Raptors in March :laugh2: ). They'll be ready. As the playoffs got started, they went even harder into homer mode. Especially after the Cavs had to go 7 games with Indiana and Lebron had to post godly numbers to get by them.

Raptors-Cleveland: A lot of people (myself included), thought Toronto could possibly get by Cleveland because of how weak Cleveland looked in the earlier series, but knew that they would be handled relatively easily in the finals (Especially if Golden State came out the west), if Toronto made it.

End of series: Cleveland sweeps Toronto again, with a 35 point win to end the season. Their bench outpreforms ours, as well as the Starters. Lebron almost posts the same numbers of both of the all-stars on Toronto. You want to know what the commentators were saying? This is a young team, they're just getting to know how to play in the playoffs, you can't stop Lebron (granted, but JR Smith shouldn't be shooting 80% from 3 for the series, or Korver at 60% or CJ miles shouldn't be defending Kevin Love in the Post), and complaining about fouls that Cleveland got in that game (You know cause the only reason we were down 35 was the fouls), and the inadvertent elbow by Love in game One. Are you kidding me? If they're going to go that far, then they should also understand that Derozan committed a Loose ball foul that would have happened before, and likely negated the elbow :laugh2:

It's clear that this core legit tightens up vs LBJ, and especially Demar, who's had more of a defeatist attitude over the past couple years during press conference discussing him.

The absolute refusal of the fanbase/sports commentators here to accept defeat/failure is one of the biggest crutches. Matt Devlin (if you can't already tell, I hate the guy), will complain about every drive to the net the Raptors make that doesn't end up in a foul (as in he'll say "Derozan drives to the rim, no call and he hits it"). They like to promote the "NBA is out to get us because we're in Canada" conspiracy theory, which runs toxic through the fanbase. I mean, why rebuild when the NBA is just going to screw the team in the end? Might as well keep the team around and get some playoff games before they decide that a more popular team should win.

Which sucks for the avid fans of the team. I would bet that 95% of the avid fans of the team would tell you that there should be a drastic change, which means that at least a few of the core guys should be gone, and the coach should be fired. I mentioned in a previous thread that they might be able to deal out a guy to a team that gets a bit desperate for another star player, whether it's due to them losing someone, or they catch a team that's desperate to catch up with a team that they're fighting with for supremacy, either way, that might take a while. I think I mentioned Philly as they're trying to keep up with Boston, and their GM was the guy who drafted Derozan when he was with us (maybe they can pry young guys/ picks from them, but they'd probably need to absorb a big contract), but that's probably a bit of a stretch.

Either way, if Ujiri/Webster aren't listening in on every call over their guys, then they're not doing their job. Luckily, the do have a few young guys who they can develop, but that's pretty much all they can be reluctant to talk about in trade talks.

R. Johnson#3
05-10-2018, 07:47 AM
How about a trade with the Wiz based around DeMar and Beal? I’d do it for Beal and a 1st.

Jamiecballer
05-10-2018, 10:05 AM
What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

What's going to change when they bring every back?

I'd rather them start over than be the 5th best team in the East every year.

They're basically going to have to hope that LeBron gets old eventually. By then , maybe they can beat the Cavs. But it's not just LeBron they're up against. The Sixers are going to be better and the Celtics are definitely going to be better.That's not really applicable in team sports where

A) teams change pretty much year to year and players evolve as they move through stages in their careers.

B) even though they have been frustrating as a fan because they always seem to play poorer than you think they should, it's important to remember the only team they have lost 2 the past 3 years is Cleveland.

C) the only constant is James on Cleveland, see point A.

D) they changed their MO this year. So even if all of the above weren't true, they still haven't met your definition of insanity.

Insanity btw, should be redefined to 'trying to get past MJ or LeBron without having one of your own' but to blow up a team on a 5 year run that 80% of the league would be envious of, while possessing a bevy of young talent that are sort of wildcards -- not realistic.

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D-Leethal
05-10-2018, 10:44 AM
They either need to blow it up or a attempt a blockbuster to retool and make another run at it. Kawhi, Westbrook, Cousins - swing for the fences with one of the stars on the market. But you need to swap one of your 30M guys for another big money player - Lowry and Derozan isn't getting it done as your two max guys.

Wise decision would be to blow it up though. Tough to do that for lots of dollar reasons.

R. Johnson#3
05-10-2018, 11:14 AM
People act as if blowing a team up is a fool proof plan which will work out in 5 or so years. People are then reminded of the Sacramento Kings.

Jamiecballer
05-10-2018, 12:19 PM
When I say blow it up, I'm referring to if you want to win a championship. This roster ain't going to do it, sorry. But the reality is, at least 25 teams ain't doing it at all. Warriors, Spurs, Rockets, Celtics, and then possibly whichever team LeBron is in. The shameful part of the Raptors is they just seem to give up vs LeBron and that's why everyone laughs at them but in reality, they never had a shot at the championship anyways. If they convinced anyone, I'm sorry but you are gullible. There is no valid trade out there that would turn the Raptors into contenders. No one wants Lowry's bad contract and DeRozan's lack of shooting will turn many teams away.Lowry makes too much, for sure. But if it's already spent money, ie the other team is matching salary, he could be moved. Like if Leonard was resigned and shipped off to Canada as punishment lol

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R. Johnson#3
05-10-2018, 12:21 PM
Absolutely. Replacing Demars scoring and getting a pick is a win.

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Pick would be best case scenario but I’d even do it straight up.

Jamiecballer
05-10-2018, 12:22 PM
How about a trade with the Wiz based around DeMar and Beal? I’d do it for Beal and a 1st.Absolutely. Replacing Demars scoring and getting a pick is a win.

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WestCoastSportz
05-10-2018, 02:53 PM
Absolutely. Replacing Demars scoring and getting a pick is a win.

Right now, Beal is the better player and is still over 24 years old. No way the Wizards would give him up AND a 1st rounder for Derozan. Why would they? Doesn't make any sense. Not even an even swap would make the Wizards better. The Wizards main need is a reliable 4 and 5. They're happy with the backcourt tandem of Beal and Wall.

c.c.
05-10-2018, 03:03 PM
Blowing it up is easier said than done.

R. Johnson#3
05-10-2018, 04:28 PM
Right now, Beal is the better player and is still over 24 years old. No way the Wizards would give him up AND a 1st rounder for Derozan. Why would they? Doesn't make any sense. Not even an even swap would make the Wizards better. The Wizards main need is a reliable 4 and 5. They're happy with the backcourt tandem of Beal and Wall.

Yeah but Beal and Wall aren’t.

mike_noodles
05-10-2018, 04:50 PM
People act as if blowing a team up is a fool proof plan which will work out in 5 or so years. People are then reminded of the Sacramento Kings.

You aren't wrong. But, you need stars in this league. We aren't in NY, LA or Miami. Only one way to get them to come.

Cal827
05-10-2018, 05:00 PM
Yeah but Beal and Wall aren’t.

I don't think Washington would do this deal regardless. One of the advantages that they have is that when Wall Drives, he can kick it out to Beal, who can hit 3s very consistently. Derozan is inconsistent from beyond the Arc, as is Wall. In the NBA today, you can't have both of your guards being below average from shooting from 3. Of course, we'd have to wait and see how Wall is once he's fully healthy though.

Vee-Rex
05-10-2018, 06:38 PM
Casey:


“There’s a huge gap I think we closed between the first 4-0 and the second 4-0,” Casey said. “That 4-0 is very, I think, deceiving. You had two games by what, one point and two points. So the gap is closing.”


:facepalm:

Cal827
05-10-2018, 06:44 PM
Casey:



:facepalm:

Maybe we'll only lose 4 games to 1 next year.... you have got to be ****ing kidding me :facepalm:

I also want to add to his stupid point, as you probably know too Rexie, Toronto did win 2 games against the Cavs (and quite likely the strongest Lebron Led team since he returned, though you might have another opinion on the strongest team)

He should have been fired for this statement alone.... The people defending this guy need to read this comment again and again until they finally understand that he's not the coach that can get us over the hump :laugh2:

Jamiecballer
05-10-2018, 07:42 PM
Right now, Beal is the better player and is still over 24 years old. No way the Wizards would give him up AND a 1st rounder for Derozan. Why would they? Doesn't make any sense. Not even an even swap would make the Wizards better. The Wizards main need is a reliable 4 and 5. They're happy with the backcourt tandem of Beal and Wall.I don't know if you've had conversations with the teams front office but I have a very strong suspicion that they are not as pleased with that pairing as you believe. Generally where there is a lot of smoke there is fire. There is lots of smoke and I am not buying that it's all made up, especially since the wizards don't ever add up to what you think they should.

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Jamiecballer
05-10-2018, 07:43 PM
Casey:



:facepalm:Well.... He's not wrong. Little consolation to fans.

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Jeffy25
05-10-2018, 08:04 PM
No, get them a good 3 and D and a hustle rebounder/post defender at the 4/5 to help as a backup, and they have a great team. I love their bench.

DeRozan and Lowry need to learn to kill it together in tough situations.

TO Rapz
05-10-2018, 08:21 PM
No one said blowing up a team is a full proof plan. Its a massive risk. The people that are saying blow it up are people that are not content with being in a treadmill. Its the population of people that believe you need to pick a direction and its one or the other.

Its like the quote they say about dating: if youre not gona marry her, youre wasting your time. Well, you still date girls for longer than you need to even though you know shes not the one. You have an attachment and its hard to break that attachment. Change is hard, people like comfort zones. But the people that are saying blow it up are confident that the Raptors have reached their ceiling, and now its time to pick a direction.


The only real factor here is, Lebron is now old. There is that SLIGHT risk that something can happen to him. But even when that does, the Celtics WITHOUT Kyrie and Hayward are in a much better position than the Raptors. Brown, Tatum, Rozier and Horford can compete, if not beat this Raptor team in the playoffs. Brad Stevens would bend Casey over backwards and **** all the class out of him in a playoff series.

TO Rapz
05-10-2018, 08:21 PM
Theres been reports in Washington that John Wall doesn't get along or cause problems with some teammates IIRC.

Tg11
05-11-2018, 09:05 AM
I mean might as well get rid of players who are not getting it done. I mean DeMar and Casey have basically shown that they can't get along. Charles Barkley and Shaq on Inside the NBA were going back and forth on this. Coach has to have a good relationship with his #1 option and vice versa. It is clear DeMar and Dwane don't have that. Not to mention DeMar basically quit on his team against the Cavs. However, Charles Barkley was right in the sense that the Raptors just didn't show up against the Cavs plain and simple. Y'all didn't show up and y'all went out like a bunch of b****** to LeBron again for the 2nd straight year embarrassing yourselves and your so called fans yet again. It is fairly obvious to me that changes need to be made.

That starts at the top which means I would stay the course with Coach Casey. The guy practically won 59 games almost 60 games and if he ends up as Coach of the Year you have to stick with him as your guy. The problem isn't the coach it is the players plain and simple no excuses. You either have to get rid of DeMar or Kyle. Just the way I look at it now.

Tg11
05-11-2018, 09:10 AM
Theres been reports in Washington that John Wall doesn't get along or cause problems with some teammates IIRC.

Even if that is true I can't see Wall leaving the Wizards and even if he did I can't see him going to the Raptors

R. Johnson#3
05-11-2018, 09:17 AM
Casey:



:facepalm:

We’re getting better at losing hooray!

Tg11
05-11-2018, 09:29 AM
We’re getting better at losing hooray!

Y'all better get used to being underachievers especially in the East with Cleveland in the East and then Boston next season with the talent we already have with Brown, Rozier and Tatum plus a healthy Kyrie and Hayward coming back next season with Horford added into that nucleus you guys will be lucky to even win the Conference again. Not to mention Philly too with the talent they have but if LeBron or any other big name goes there to play with Embiid and Simmons needless to say Toronto is done.

Cal827
05-11-2018, 11:43 AM
Man, I'm surprised that everyone is blowing up what happened in game 3. The Raptors were down 20 and they needed to come back as a game 3 loss is basically curtains. Derozan wasn't shooting well. I understand why Casey did it, he wanted to try to save the season and his job. Derozan did say it was frustrating not being on the court, but deep down, I'm sure he understands why he wasn't there. This was one of Casey's good moves.


Also, did you watch the series TG? Time after time Casey had the incorrect rotations that led to guys scoring at will (E.g. Love over Miles in the post), Any offensive scheme they ran during the end of game 1, the defensive schemes that led to them double teaming James and leaving guys like Smith and Korver constantly open. I mean, I understand the players deserve some flak for their performances, but that would probably just be Derozan (for games 3 and 4 in Cleveland, otherwise he had a pretty decent playoff run) and Ibaka who decided to disappear. The other guys out there were trying to play, including our best bench player in Vanvleet, who separated his shoulder in that final game vs Miami because he ended up playing extended minutes in a meaningless game so we could fight to get 60 wins. That altered his shooting come playoff time.

The players deserve criticism for the games, but isn't it the coach's job to do everything to help them keep their composure. and to absolve him of it for progressively getting worse in 3 straight playoff years ended by Lebron is insane. This is the worst Cavs team there since he returned, and the Raptors can't even get 1 win against them. **** the regular season. All those wins mean nothing, it's not like they've been a terrible team, that's finally won enough to make the playoffs. Casey deserves accolade for what he's done with the Raptors since coming here from when they were a dumpster fire. But unfortunately, I think he's a reincarnation of George Karl: Will have a very strong regular season, but can't deliver come playoff time. And for that, regardless of what direction we go with the players, he needs to leave. He'll get another job quickly, but it is what it is.

R. Johnson#3
05-11-2018, 11:44 AM
Y'all better get used to being underachievers especially in the East with Cleveland in the East and then Boston next season with the talent we already have with Brown, Rozier and Tatum plus a healthy Kyrie and Hayward coming back next season with Horford added into that nucleus you guys will be lucky to even win the Conference again. Not to mention Philly too with the talent they have but if LeBron or any other big name goes there to play with Embiid and Simmons needless to say Toronto is done.

You really need to work on your trolling. Going after sarcastic posts won’t get you what you want. Keep trying though.

Cal827
05-11-2018, 11:48 AM
^^ That explains it :laugh2:

Tg11
05-11-2018, 12:01 PM
Either way after you guys fired Casey you guys are done

Cal827
05-11-2018, 12:12 PM
Either way after you guys fired Casey you guys are done


Well, with Casey we weren't winning anyways, so does it really mean anything? Boston and Philly are probably gonna be the beasts of the East, the Bucks are getting Better, the Pacers are going to have time to grow together, Lebron will still quite possibly stay in the East. I don't think this Raptor team would stand a chance against Boston/Cleveland/Philly, even if Casey was still here.

Lowry will be regressing soon, Ibaka had his game stolen from the Monstars :laugh2:.. that won't stop a healthy Irving and that Celts roster.

Tg11
05-11-2018, 12:26 PM
Well, with Casey we weren't winning anyways, so does it really mean anything? Boston and Philly are probably gonna be the beasts of the East, the Bucks are getting Better, the Pacers are going to have time to grow together, Lebron will still quite possibly stay in the East. I don't think this Raptor team would stand a chance against Boston/Cleveland/Philly, even if Casey was still here.

Lowry will be regressing soon, Ibaka had his game stolen from the Monstars :laugh2:.. that won't stop a healthy Irving and that Celts roster.

Yes my team Boston is coming for you guys but then again Philly will be a Beast of the East as well as Cleveland if LeBron stays...yeah Toronto will be lucky to make it 4th or 5th or 6th in the East

Cal827
05-11-2018, 12:48 PM
Yes my team Boston is coming for you guys but then again Philly will be a Beast of the East as well as Cleveland if LeBron stays...yeah Toronto will be lucky to make it 4th or 5th or 6th in the East

That's my point though. Next year, Boston's gonna be healthy, those rookies/sophmores that Stevens is coaching are only going to get better with all of this playoff experience, and Tatum/Brown look like they can be future all stars. Boston will probably be the top seed in the East, and might be a legitimate favorite to win the title. If we compared Toronto and Boston, the Celtics will have a stronger starting 5 with Irving/Hayward/Tatum/???/Horford. I'm not sure about you, but I feel that Tatum is the real deal, and he'll soon become the focal point of the team. He's shown in the playoffs that he can take over, and he's been a pretty good defender already (as with brown), which is amazing since rookies tend to be a little lacking on that side of the ball (E.g Simmons). OG is good, but will probably take a bit longer to become the 3/D guy we want than it will take for Tatum to blossom into a Star. Now lets get to coaching. I think you and I can agree that Stevens not winning COY is a travesty. Stevens is the best coach in the NBA right now by pretty far. If Tyron Lue can outcoach Casey, I'm sure that Stevens can do the same :laugh2:

You're right the Raptors would probably be a lower seeded playoff team if you consider other variables (E.g. Injuries, which they were very lucky from, and regression).... What does that mean for the team? We probably get elminated in round one...or maybe get lucky and knock off a young team that did well, but aren't ready for the playoffs.. then get hammered by one of the top seeds in the subsequent series like the Brooklyn Nets of the mid 2010s? At least we have most of our draft assets :laugh2: For many of us, that's not good enough. We want to win titles, not get a damn participation trophy.

Though you say you're from Toronto, so you probably know how Money Oriented MLSE can be over the Toronto teams, so hopefully they don't stick their greedy nose in. If there are deals to make the team better, or get draft assets back in exchange for our veterans, they better do it... Maybe the Leafs winning now will make them forget/not interfere with the Raptors, just like how it used to be :laugh2:

Tg11
05-11-2018, 12:52 PM
Not like MLSE doesn't have the money to lure free agents to Toronto because they do but they aren't spending money when they should be because had they done that or could do it then the Raptors everyone would be saying title contender but they never will be because their front office is just incompetent

Dade County
05-11-2018, 12:58 PM
People need to factor in that Lbj could have blown them out every game if he so decided too. So the Raps losing a close game or getting blown out a game, really doesn't tell the full story.

If Lbj wanted to finish with the 1st seed, then the Cav's would have had the 1st seed, and the players and coaches know this. So to fire their couch, something else most of happened behind the scenes.

Not 1 team in the East has what it takes to truly beat Lbj in a playoff series. Hasn't everyone learn this, these past 8yrs. Just because series go 5-7 games, doesn't really mean anything, when it comes to Lbj.

Jamiecballer
05-12-2018, 04:08 PM
People need to factor in that Lbj could have blown them out every game if he so decided too. So the Raps losing a close game or getting blown out a game, really doesn't tell the full story..

Right. I'll be sure to factor that ludicrous assumption in next time. He must really be friends with the guys on the Pacers to allow them the extra playoff revenue he gave them too.

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Jenceman
05-12-2018, 05:45 PM
You really think LeBron is gonna go out West? If he does then the only teams he would go to realistically are the Lakers, Clippers or Rockets

If I was a betting man I'd put money on him signing with the Lakers or Rockets.

GiantsSwaGG
05-12-2018, 10:58 PM
Raps need to start from scratch, trade everybody and tank for a few years

aman_13
05-12-2018, 11:07 PM
Raps need to start from draft, trade everybody and tank for a few years

**** that lol

MJNetsIsles
05-23-2018, 08:30 PM
Should the Baby Dinosaurs like my man Shannon Sharpe refers to the Raptors as...blow their team up? Or keep the same core group of guys that they know they cannot win with? I say if you realistically want to compete not just in the East but potentially in the whole NBA is you gotta lure big names to come to Toronto. However, Toronto has no cap space. There lies the issue.

Yes. They should rebuild.

THE MTL
05-25-2018, 09:30 AM
They went into the playoffs as number one seed in the East. You never blow that up! You build on that

JasonJohnHorn
05-27-2018, 08:58 AM
They should obviously explore options. If they could get Beal for DM;DR, or Wall/Beal for Lowry/DMDR, sure. But it seems unlikely that they could get equal or more value back for their players.



Blowing the team up wouldn't help them now. And if they do blow the team up, then what was the purpose of firing Casey? Blowing the team up presumes that the issue is with the roster; firing the coach presumes that there is something wrong with the coaching.


They are going to bring in a new coach. Let that coach try his (or her) best with the Raptors current roster. If that still doesn't work, the it's time to move on. But it's like the old Mavs team with Nash, Dirk and Finley. They let that team fall apart, and sure, they eventually won a title, but that was the right timing. They could have kept that core and built a better team with the right coaching change (imagine if they kept Nash and Finley and brought in D'Antoni). But keeping Dirk was key... they kept a 'core' in a sense, and eventually, the tides rolled out and they got a shot.

The tides might not role out for the Raptors, especially given how god Boston is without their two best players. However, the Raptors took nearly 30 years t put together a regular contender, and it may be another 30 before they do this again. They might as well give it one more year, and then look at dumping the likes of Lowry, DMDR and Ibaka for prospects like Ainge did with Boston's old unit and like Hinkie did when he came in to Philly and dumped the old roster.

tp13baby
05-27-2018, 10:54 AM
They went into the playoffs as number one seed in the East. You never blow that up! You build on that

Swept by the worst Lebron team since Cleveland, who are fighting tooth and nail with Boston missing 2 allstars. They need to go a different direction.

Cal827
05-27-2018, 11:12 AM
Just to add to this thread, there have been speculation that Ujiri is looking to make a big move in the off-season that would likely involve Lowry or Demar. I guess it'll be a wait and see. As I think I said earlier, maybe a team that's on the brink of contention (E.g. Philly) would look to add a piece to contend with the best in the future (E.g Likely Boston, Houston/GS). BC drafted Derozan here and acquired Lowry when he was here. If Philly offers something that helps the team acquire young prospects (E.g. If Philly gets desperate and offers their 11th pick and Fultz for one of them), then I would think they would go in the rebuild direction.

For a young core, that would give Toronto:

Vanvleet (if they resign him) (24)
Wright (26)
Powell (25)
Siakam (24)
Poetl (22)
Fultz (20)
OG (20)
That 11th pick

Which isn't bad, and could have more added to it if they go full blow up and trade some of the others.

Jamiecballer
05-27-2018, 04:56 PM
Swept by the worst Lebron team since Cleveland, who are fighting tooth and nail with Boston missing 2 allstars. They need to go a different direction.And yet if Cleveland makes it we might have to revisit our evaluation of that series right? If LeBron can carry the worst team he's had in a long while to the finals than maybe we all ought to keep our **** together with regards to this club.

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Tg11
05-28-2018, 05:10 PM
Yes. They should rebuild.

Raptors rebuild at this point needs to happen

3neSoulja
05-28-2018, 06:50 PM
They didn’t improve every season for the last 5 or so years just to rebuild. Pieces need to be removed and replaced.. PG is a position of strength for us. If that means trading away Lowry, Powell and Poeltl for someone established on the wing.. that’s what we do.. DeMar might get us the biggest package but he’s our best player.. he did get voted to th 2nd team all NBA by fluke. Trading him away would be the biggest mistake since Casey

Missing56&33
05-28-2018, 07:02 PM
I think the Raptors need a new HC. Somebody like Mark Jackson.

Tg11
05-28-2018, 08:10 PM
I think the Raptors need a new HC. Somebody like Mark Jackson.

But would Marc Jackson want to coach the Raptors though? Look at what he did with Golden State but still can't see him coming to the Raptors

Now Stackhouse as head coach for the Raptors is probably your best option

JasonJohnHorn
05-30-2018, 06:50 PM
Raps need to start from scratch, trade everybody and tank for a few years

Is this a Sam Hinkie burner account? As you going to accue Colangelo of wearing shirts with collars that are too big?