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View Full Version : Tatum and Simmons join rare club



JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2018, 07:38 PM
I realize some of these 'numbers' are arbitrary, and things that people have't even thought of until they get reported, but Tatum and Simmons joined rare company this season.

Before this season, only 4 rookies have led their teams in total minutes played AND taken them to 50 wins:

Kareem Abdul Jabbar,
Larry Bird,
David Robinson, and
Tim Duncan

It may be doubtful that either of these guys will be on parity terms with these all-time greats, but still... it is something that is pretty impressive.

This year, two players have achieved this: Tatum and Simmons.


I think they at least deserve a golf clap for that.


It's crazy to think that we were 3 wins away from having Mitchell do the same thing.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 07:53 PM
The difference is that these other guys were actually their teams best player. Where as in this case it's simply due to the fact that Embiid and Irving got hurt. Granted, Simmons at least has an alpha role on his team. Tatum's gonna be a really solid player as well, but yeah, it's definitely apples to oranges.

IndyRealist
04-10-2018, 09:04 PM
The difference is that these other guys were actually their teams best player. Where as in this case it's simply due to the fact that Embiid and Irving got hurt. Granted, Simmons at least has an alpha role on his team. Tatum's gonna be a really solid player as well, but yeah, it's definitely apples to oranges.

As far as I'm concerned, Simmons is the Sixers' best player. But he's not a true rookie anyway, so there's your asterisk.

JAZZNC
04-10-2018, 09:10 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Simmons is the Sixers' best player. But he's not a true rookie anyway, so there's your asterisk.
Ben Simmons is the real "Process".

More-Than-Most
04-10-2018, 09:51 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Simmons is the Sixers' best player. But he's not a true rookie anyway, so there's your asterisk.

embiid has no weakness... simmons lack of shot is a huge weakness... its a nice problem to have when someone argues him over embiid and simmons is insane but he is def not the better player.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 10:00 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Simmons is the Sixers' best player. But he's not a true rookie anyway, so there's your asterisk.

Eh - I don't care about the red-shirt factor for Simmons. As far as the first statement, you could be right. It does have a 1a/1b feel already. I'd lean Embiid if both are engaged, but it'll be a debate going forward.

IndyRealist
04-10-2018, 10:16 PM
embiid has no weakness... simmons lack of shot is a huge weakness... its a nice problem to have when someone argues him over embiid and simmons is insane but he is def not the better player.

Simmons' lack of shot is partially mitigated by the fact that he knows, and doesn't take shots he's not good at. Conversely, Embiid is a bad 3pt shooter. Why does it matter for a center? Because they make up 20% of his shots. Simmons knows he can't shoot 3s, so he only took 11 all season.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 10:42 PM
Simmons' lack of shot is partially mitigated by the fact that he knows, and doesn't take shots he's not good at. Conversely, Embiid is a bad 3pt shooter. Why does it matter for a center? Because they make up 20% of his shots. Simmons knows he can't shoot 3s, so he only took 11 all season.

This is low grade analysis on a few fronts. The threat of the shot itself - specifically from a center - is a huge bonus for a team in its ability to stretch the opposing big out of the block. And while he's on an effective 46% FG average from 3 this season (down from an effective 55% last season), that factor still makes it a net + most of the time. Also, it's not 20% of his shots when you factor in that he's at nearly 8 FTA's a game and nearly all of those are via 2pt attempts. From actual offensive shooting possessions, it's closer to 12-15% of his shots. Which is ideal if he can get his % back to the ~33+ range (doesn't need to be the nearly 37% that it was last year).

Simmons' lack of a shot is far more troubling for the fact that his mark is the opposing guard, and it allows that guard to sit in on the defense (granted, for the time being his athleticism against teams in the reg season is enough to overcome this... but watch out against smart/better teams/coaches in the playoffs), and his FT shooting is HORRENDOUS. You never want your man with the ball at the end of the game to be a terrible foul shooter, and that is the reality for Simmons and the Sixers. It's going to be a very big issue for them in the waning minutes of big playoff games. In Embiid's case, he's a beast FT shooter. No issue.

nastynice
04-11-2018, 01:34 AM
Embiid and Simmons gonna be so filthy, Simmons lacks a shot but hes already dominant with the ball, all adding a shots gonna do is turn something already ridiculous even more ridiculous.

Embiid gotta stay healthy, I love his game but at that weight he can over stress his knees. He should adjust a bit

Lil Rhody
04-11-2018, 05:11 AM
Tatum is gonna be the real deal

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Vinylman
04-11-2018, 07:48 AM
not impressed ... very low MPG considering historical numbers ....

for point of reference... neither would be in the top 4 in minutes on the 79/80 Lakers

JasonJohnHorn
04-11-2018, 08:14 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Simmons is the Sixers' best player. But he's not a true rookie anyway, so there's your asterisk.

They guy may have hung out in the NBA for a year, but he didn't take part in any NBA action, and he is still younger than Kareem or Duncan when they were rookies, and the same age as MJ.

I mean... Lillard was 22 when he won rookie of the year over a bnhc of 19 and 20 year old guys. Should we put an astricks on that?

I get the point, but I don't feel like it is a distinction worth making. Especially given that Mithcell and Simmons are the same age.

When comapring a 19-year-old and 20-year-old and a 22-year-old, there are significant differences in terms of how the body has matured that play a bigger factor than experience.


We might just as easily say that Mitchel has the advantage because he was healthy and playing last year while Simmons was injured and was therefore 'rusty' when he came in.

It's two dudes who are both 21 and because he wa healthier last year, Mithcel actually has more basketball minutes logged in organizatonal ball.

JasonJohnHorn
04-11-2018, 08:22 AM
embiid has no weakness... simmons lack of shot is a huge weakness... its a nice problem to have when someone argues him over embiid and simmons is insane but he is def not the better player.

There is a great point here, though I think that both you an IndyRealist have valid argument.

Simmons has a lack of a shot, and his style of game is great for the regular season, but as we saw with Boston and Rondo, in the playoffs, teams will make adjustments to exploit that kind of short coming. Boston was lucky because they had three HOFer. Wille Philly be able to compensate? We'll see.

That said... Simmons does have a case for being the teams best player, or at least best all around player.


One might point to Emiid minute restrictions.

Statistically... Simmons is a better rebounder than Embiid is a playmaker, and he is better at blocking shots than Embiid is at getting steals (I flip the comparisons around due to their positions).

For their strong points, I think Embiid is as good a rebounder as Simmons is a playmaker, as as good a shot blocker as Simmons is at guarding the pasing lanes or pressuring the ball handler. that said... Embiid likely has a bigger imapct on the team's defense than Simmons (which is likely due to his position) and Embiid is a better scorer when you look at the context of their positions.


But it is hard to compare a PG and a C, so there is some subjective issues here.


It could be argued that Simmons is the team's best player, or Embiid, but Simmons certain has a major flaw with regard to his shot; Embiid has a major flaw in that he simply can't seem to stay healthy.

But Simmons is a rookie. Here's to hoping he develops that shot and Embiid's health problems are behind him, and that we will get to watch some amazing basketball outta Philly for years to come.

IndyRealist
04-11-2018, 08:44 AM
This is low grade analysis on a few fronts. The threat of the shot itself - specifically from a center - is a huge bonus for a team in its ability to stretch the opposing big out of the block. And while he's on an effective 46% FG average from 3 this season (down from an effective 55% last season), that factor still makes it a net + most of the time. Also, it's not 20% of his shots when you factor in that he's at nearly 8 FTA's a game and nearly all of those are via 2pt attempts. From actual offensive shooting possessions, it's closer to 12-15% of his shots. Which is ideal if he can get his % back to the ~33+ range (doesn't need to be the nearly 37% that it was last year).

Simmons' lack of a shot is far more troubling for the fact that his mark is the opposing guard, and it allows that guard to sit in on the defense (granted, for the time being his athleticism against teams in the reg season is enough to overcome this... but watch out against smart/better teams/coaches in the playoffs), and his FT shooting is HORRENDOUS. You never want your man with the ball at the end of the game to be a terrible foul shooter, and that is the reality for Simmons and the Sixers. It's going to be a very big issue for them in the waning minutes of big playoff games. In Embiid's case, he's a beast FT shooter. No issue.

Disagree completely. A 30% 3pt shooting center is not a "threat", you give him that shot. One, because he's over 50% FG inside the arc, so it's a net loss of points per possession. Two, he's not in position for offensive rebounds, making it an opportunity cost. Unless other people pick up the slack (like Simmons) it's not worth the lost offensive rebound if he's a crappy 3pt shooter. He also loses foul opportunities. I would zone every single play, keeping my big at the rim and guard him with a wing at the 3pt line and switch if he comes inside. L I'll live with 0.9 ppp until he can prove he actually can shoot 3s.

Embiid is still developing, so he could improve his shot, or his shot selection. But if we're counting improvement for Embiid we have to give the same consideration for Simmons. Going into this year, I though Simmons playing point was a gimmick. But he's proven he is a legit 6'10" PG. Embiid is a great center, but he's not 8" taller than the guys defending him.

tredigs
04-11-2018, 10:06 AM
Disagree completely. A 30% 3pt shooting center is not a "threat", you give him that shot. One, because he's over 50% FG inside the arc, so it's a net loss of points per possession. Two, he's not in position for offensive rebounds, making it an opportunity cost. Unless other people pick up the slack (like Simmons) it's not worth the lost offensive rebound if he's a crappy 3pt shooter. He also loses foul opportunities. I would zone every single play, keeping my big at the rim and guard him with a wing at the 3pt line and switch if he comes inside. L I'll live with 0.9 ppp until he can prove he actually can shoot 3s.

Embiid is still developing, so he could improve his shot, or his shot selection. But if we're counting improvement for Embiid we have to give the same consideration for Simmons. Going into this year, I though Simmons playing point was a gimmick. But he's proven he is a legit 6'10" PG. Embiid is a great center, but he's not 8" taller than the guys defending him.

We don't need to go too far in the weeds derailing here, but the fact is that the bigs do leave the block to contest his 3. So it's not much opportunity cost from a rebounding standpoint. The advantage being that their biggest player is also now not boxing out and it leaves room for the wings to fly in for the board. Also leaves room for slashers like Simmons to work much more easily. His career from 3 is still nearly 34%. The sample size tells us it's a + shot for him/them.

Most points don't guard Simmons, they have a wing on him and the PG is on Reddick or whatever other smaller guy is out there. That "8 inch height advantage" is also heavily mitigated when you can't shoot over the defender... Because you can't shoot. Simmons is a truly fantastic prospect who has clear superstar potential, but he's a PG with a historically glaring hole in his game that WILL be exploited by the top teams/coaches in playoff series. Embiid is dominant, and has no hole in his game. He is the better player, and that will be more clear in the playoffs.