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Lionel20
04-08-2018, 11:37 PM
According to reports I've followed from the sportswriters serving as potential voters on the 2017-18 MVP award, it appears it's down to two players -- James Harden and LeBron James.

Harden is the overwhelming favorite due to the advantage he holds with his teams success, the Rockets currently own the top record in the NBA and are projected for 66 wins. James' team is currently ranked 4th the Eastern Conference, projected to win 51 games.

Last year, Russell Westbrook won the MVP by 135 points over 2nd Place James Harden. Westbrook's Thunder were a 6th seed in the Western Conference, winning just 47 games.

The Offensive comparison

James
(proj.)
Total pts = 2271
Total ast = 752
Total off reb = 99
Total tov = 349
TS% = .621

Harden
(proj.)
Total pts = 2229
Total ast = 636
Total off reb = 41
Total tov = 318
TS% = .620

Westbrook
(2017)
Total pts = 2558
Total ast = 840
Total off reb = 137
Total tov = 438
TS% = .554

2017 Westbrook has the higher volume of production, but is clearly the most inefficient of the bunch. Yet, Westbrook finished last season with nearly 70% of all first place votes. Harden finished with 47 less first place votes than Westbrook last season with numbers that are overall similar to this year's campaign. One difference, the Rockets acquired Chris Paul, and are on pace to win 11 more games than last year. The Rockets are 15-8 without Paul this season (65%). In other words, the Rockets are basically the same team they were last year (55-27, .67 win%) without Paul in the lineup. Paul, in nearly 60 games this season is clearly explains the 10 or 11 win improvement for the Rockets.

James and the Cavs lost Kyrie Irving in the 2017 offseason. The Cavs are currently on pace for the exact same record as last year. The one constant, is that James has elevated his play to compensate for the absence of the All Star Point Guard.

Like Harden, James' most effective teammate, Kevin Love missed over 20 games. The Cavs went 13-9, unlike the Rockets minus Paul, showed no drop-off, with James again picking up the slack in his absence. The Cavs have had 18 different starters this year, James and JR Smith the only players to start at least 60 games. JR Smith has been a liability for the Cavs, whereas Capela and Ariza -- the 2nd and 3rd most consistent Rockets' starters -- have made positive contributions for the Rockets, especially on the defensive end.

The Defensive Comparison

Critics have come out in full force against James' defense this year, some in same breath praising Harden on that end of the floor for the first time in his career. The Cavs have one of the worst defenses in the NBA. But it's important to point out that most leading defensive metrics such DPM or Defensive Rating, don't have way to isolate individual defensive performance apart from team defense. For example, having a solid rim protector can cover a lot of flaws in perimeter defenders if you just take in the advanced stats.

The Cavs have been awful defensively, 2nd to last in team Defensive Rating. But that doesn't necessarily translate into LeBron being terrible. LeBron is far in away the Cavs best shot blocker (71), the next closest is Jeff Green (32). James is arguably the Cavs best perimeter defender as well, George Hill and Cedi Osman honorable mention. The average offensive player that LeBron guards shoots .459 from the field against the rest of the league, when James guards them, he holds them to .446, 1.3% below their league average. In Harden's case the average player he defends shoots .458 from the field regularly, when Harden defends them they shoot slightly higher at .461 from the field. Harden also has 142 defensive fouls in 460 less minutes than James (including 20 more shooting fouls) -- James has committed only 100 defensive fouls in a league leading 2977 minutes played.

Harden plays with a bonafide shot blocker in Clint Capela. Meanwhile Eric Gordon is easily the perimeter defender on the Rockets this season. But NeNe, Mbah a Moute, along with Capela and Gordon have more so than Harden helped the Rockets to top defensive Team this year. Ariza, Tucker, and Paul although inconsistent, have arguably been better than anyone playing the majority of the 2017-18 season on the Cavs roster not named LeBron James. The Rockets currently have no players playing as poor defensively as Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, and Rodney Hood.

In short, the Rockets have stout defensive players that help provide the content for the defensive metrics like Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares which inflate Harden effectiveness on the defensive side of the ball. When we attempt to contextualize base on team personnel and isolate each players defensive performance through the player tracking data it appears to show James having regressed from an elite defender to slightly above average, and Harden slightly below average.


So James has had the most offensive impact, both through total minutes on the court and offensive efficiency. James is also the better defensive player. And with Westbrook setting what may be a new precedent last year, winning the MVP while playing on a 6th seed, let's see if the sportwriter's -- armed with more advanced stats in the last four years than all of prior NBA History -- will actually select the league's most valuable player for the MVP award.

More-Than-Most
04-08-2018, 11:38 PM
he should be the mvp... without reading this I 100 percent agree.

Jamiecballer
04-08-2018, 11:55 PM
I'm going to go against the grain and ask simply this - why in the hell should we vote MVP for a guy who looked like he'd packed it in for a span of about 4 weeks before the trade deadline. And I say this as an avid James supporter in general but he looked completely apathetic for a decent chunk of the year and that's not adding value that's for sure.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Lionel20
04-09-2018, 12:04 AM
I'm going to go against the grain and ask simply this - why in the hell should we vote MVP for a guy who looked like he'd packed it in for a span of about 4 weeks before the trade deadline. And I say this as an avid James supporter in general but he looked completely apathetic for a decent chunk of the year and that's not adding value that's for sure.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

If he ďpacked it inĒ by averaging 27/8/9 54% shooting, the rest of the league did so too.

BoilermakerD
04-09-2018, 01:18 AM
According to reports I've followed from the sportswriters serving as potential voters on the 2017-18 MVP award, it appears it's down to two players -- James Harden and LeBron James.

Harden is the overwhelming favorite due to the advantage he holds with his teams success, the Rockets currently own the top record in the NBA and are projected for 66 wins. James' team is currently ranked 4th the Eastern Conference, projected to win 51 games.

Last year, Russell Westbrook won the MVP by 135 points over 2nd Place James Harden. Westbrook's Thunder were a 6th seed in the Western Conference, winning just 47 games.

The Offensive comparison

James
(proj.)
Total pts = 2271
Total ast = 752
Total off reb = 99
Total tov = 349
TS% = .621

Harden
(proj.)
Total pts = 2229
Total ast = 636
Total off reb = 41
Total tov = 318
TS% = .620

Westbrook
(2017)
Total pts = 2558
Total ast = 840
Total off reb = 137
Total tov = 438
TS% = .554

2017 Westbrook has the higher volume of production, but is clearly the most inefficient of the bunch. Yet, Westbrook finished last season with nearly 70% of all first place votes. Harden finished with 47 less first place votes than Westbrook last season with numbers that are overall similar to this year's campaign. One difference, the Rockets acquired Chris Paul, and are on pace to win 11 more games than last year. The Rockets are 15-8 without Paul this season (65%). In other words, the Rockets are basically the same team they were last year (55-27, .67 win%) without Paul in the lineup. Paul, in nearly 60 games this season is clearly explains the 10 or 11 win improvement for the Rockets.

James and the Cavs lost Kyrie Irving in the 2017 offseason. The Cavs are currently on pace for the exact same record as last year. The one constant, is that James has elevated his play to compensate for the absence of the All Star Point Guard.

Like Harden, James' most effective teammate, Kevin Love missed over 20 games. The Cavs went 13-9, unlike the Rockets minus Paul, showed no drop-off, with James again picking up the slack in his absence. The Cavs have had 18 different starters this year, James and JR Smith the only players to start at least 60 games. JR Smith has been a liability for the Cavs, whereas Capela and Ariza -- the 2nd and 3rd most consistent Rockets' starters -- have made positive contributions for the Rockets, especially on the defensive end.

The Defensive Comparison

Critics have come out in full force against James' defense this year, some in same breath praising Harden on that end of the floor for the first time in his career. The Cavs have one of the worst defenses in the NBA. But it's important to point out that most leading defensive metrics such DPM or Defensive Rating, don't have way to isolate individual defensive performance apart from team defense. For example, having a solid rim protector can cover a lot of flaws in perimeter defenders if you just take in the advanced stats.

The Cavs have been awful defensively, 2nd to last in team Defensive Rating. But that doesn't necessarily translate into LeBron being terrible. LeBron is far in away the Cavs best shot blocker (71), the next closest is Jeff Green (32). James is arguably the Cavs best perimeter defender as well, George Hill and Cedi Osman honorable mention. The average offensive player that LeBron guards shoots .459 from the field against the rest of the league, when James guards them, he holds them to .446, 1.3% below their league average. In Harden's case the average player he defends shoots .458 from the field regularly, when Harden defends them they shoot slightly higher at .461 from the field. Harden also has 142 defensive fouls in 460 less minutes than James (including 20 more shooting fouls) -- James has committed only 100 defensive fouls in a league leading 2977 minutes played.

Harden plays with a bonafide shot blocker in Clint Capela. Meanwhile Eric Gordon is easily the perimeter defender on the Rockets this season. But NeNe, Mbah a Moute, along with Capela and Gordon have more so than Harden helped the Rockets to top defensive Team this year. Ariza, Tucker, and Paul although inconsistent, have arguably been better than anyone playing the majority of the 2017-18 season on the Cavs roster not named LeBron James. The Rockets currently have no players playing as poor defensively as Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, and Rodney Hood.

In short, the Rockets have stout defensive players that help provide the content for the defensive metrics like Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares which inflate Harden effectiveness on the defensive side of the ball. When we attempt to contextualize base on team personnel and isolate each players defensive performance through the player tracking data it appears to show James having regressed from an elite defender to slightly above average, and Harden slightly below average.


So James has had the most offensive impact, both through total minutes on the court and offensive efficiency. James is also the better defensive player. And with Westbrook setting what may be a new precedent last year, winning the MVP while playing on a 6th seed, let's see if the sportwriter's -- armed with more advanced stats in the last four years than all of prior NBA History -- will actually select the league's most valuable player for the MVP award.

Clint Capela?

Same height and 5 lbs. lighter than a young Horace Grant... thatís what passes for a legit shot blocker now huh?

I remember when it was Hakeem, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Dike...

Now itís joakim Noah and Clint capela lol

LaVar Ball
04-09-2018, 01:32 AM
The Cavs might not even win 50 games in the weak east.


/thread

More-Than-Most
04-09-2018, 02:03 AM
The Cavs might not even win 50 games in the weak east.


/thread

well holy **** i guess by this logic Ben ****ing simmons is the mvp? I mean the sixers are about to win 24 more games than last year where is the rockets are only likely going to be plus what 10 in that area while adding a CP3


Lebron lost kyrie and love for a ton of time and might actually finish with as many wins as last year.

basketfan4life
04-09-2018, 04:27 AM
LBJ is having a great year but people should ease on this MVP thing. It is Harden this year. We all know team success is the first thing to look at this thing barring a historical TD season.

I've become a huge LBJ fan late in his carrier but some people look like they'll vote for LBJ on anything without looking at the concept or context.

SteBO
04-09-2018, 07:30 AM
I love LBJ, but he doesnít deserve MVP this season. Jamiecballer is 100% correct on this front.....he very clearly mailed it for a month and a half when things were looking gloomy pre-trade deadline. It was an embarrassing display of leadership. I am no James Harden/Rockets fan......but the MVP is a regular season award and Iíd rather it go to the guy who gives it their all when they step out on the floor through ups and downs. Relative to ĎBron, thatís Harden this year.

NYKalltheway
04-09-2018, 08:16 AM
clint capela?

Same height and 5 lbs. Lighter than a young horace grant... Thatís what passes for a legit shot blocker now huh?

I remember when it was hakeem, david robinson, patrick ewing and dike...

Now itís joakim noah and clint capela lol
Haha :D :D :D

WaDe03
04-09-2018, 10:14 AM
It's easily Harden

tredigs
04-09-2018, 11:14 AM
That was a very convoluted way of saying James played more minutes than Harden. What's hilarious is you fancy yourself as a stat guy, and this is what you came up with.

KnicksorBust
04-09-2018, 11:25 AM
LeBron was as efficient as Harden as a scorer (both around 62% TS%) AND played in 9 more games. I'm definitely on board with giving it to LeBron.

ewing
04-09-2018, 11:48 AM
Why not? Any time this guy loses a game it is 100% on his teammates.

lakers squad
04-09-2018, 11:58 AM
I Love this thread, I'm not on here daily...too busy for that, but I check in on this forum every couple days to see all the discussion and topics or up...This one grabs my attention as I think LeBron should definitely be in consideration for mvp, Everyone had been saying Harden was the only one that really had a shot at mvp for months, I've thought LeBron should be considered having a outside shot the whole time. Unfortunately LeBron had a team that was not worth a crap that he carried all year long, and now he has even elevated his play even further to give them one of the better records the last few weeks with not the best supporting cast at all outside of love coming back the team still dosent have any elite starters just roll player's....Glad to see him get some recognition finally, I would give him the Nov over Harden even though it's close...im not a LeBron fan, but he's the league mvp jmo, love this discussion, and look forward to reading everyone's view and opinions in the coming days/week!

WaDe03
04-09-2018, 12:25 PM
Harden leads the best team in the league, even beat out the Warriors for HCA while putting up crazy numbers, destroyed LeBrons team twice this year, while LeBrons team is the 4th seed in the East. It's not even close.

KnicksorBust
04-09-2018, 12:27 PM
No one else is bothered by 9 games? That's over 10% of the season. That'd be the same as an NFL MVP missing 2 games...

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 12:30 PM
Clint Capela?

Same height and 5 lbs. lighter than a young Horace Grant... thatís what passes for a legit shot blocker now huh?

I remember when it was Hakeem, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Dike...

Now itís joakim Noah and Clint capela lol

Lol so true. Didnít know how dominant those guys were until 30 years later and there still isnít another Drob or Dream

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 12:34 PM
I love LBJ, but he doesnít deserve MVP this season. Jamiecballer is 100% correct on this front.....he very clearly mailed it for a month and a half when things were looking gloomy pre-trade deadline. It was an embarrassing display of leadership. I am no James Harden/Rockets fan......but the MVP is a regular season award and Iíd rather it go to the guy who gives it their all when they step out on the floor through ups and downs. Relative to ĎBron, thatís Harden this year.

He didnít mail it in, he forced the front office to make moves. There is a big diff. He always knows heís gonna turn it on and win the east, but he wanted a chance to win the whole thing, so he did what he had to do, by showing them what the team could do without him going Nova. Then he got a trade made. He would never give up till down 20 with 5 min left to a warriors type team. He ainít giving up on a season midway through lololololol common.

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 12:37 PM
No one else is bothered by 9 games? That's over 10% of the season. That'd be the same as an NFL MVP missing 2 games...

You have a point. OK twist my arm itís Lebron

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 12:40 PM
That was a very convoluted way of saying James played more minutes than Harden. What's hilarious is you fancy yourself as a stat guy, and this is what you came up with.

Lol...guaranteed youíre the only one who thought that first. Nobody tries harder to destroy Lebron statistics then you my man.

FOXHOUND
04-09-2018, 12:42 PM
Up until a couple of weeks ago, Cleveland had actually been outscored with LeBron on the court over the entire season. His +/- now is still just at an average of +1.1 per game. Cleveland's starting lineup has a +/- average of 0.0 for the season, 17th in the NBA, while their bench has a +1.0, good for 7th. This was much more lopsided before the trade deadline when they made the moves to balance their lineups better. While it's not updated for 80 games yet, as of 75 games 82games.com shows that the Cavs have outscored their opponent with LeBron on the court in just 40 of 75 games. Using basic math, that number is now 45/80.

Obviously LeBron is LeBron and I'm not saying that he's only made them marginally better or anything like that, but someone cannot win MVP when their team was outscored with him on the court for almost the entire season. The Cavs were riding their bench to wins for most of the season while LeBron had to carry the starters to just tread water, and the lagging effort on defense for regular season LeBron has been well documented for years.

With James Harden having a fantastic year and leading the Rockets to 60+ wins and the best record in the NBA he is the clear and obvious choice.

Edit: For further clarity, and since NBA.com has a date feature, why not use it?

From start of season to February 8, the trade deadline, 53 games

Cavs starters: -1.8, 22nd in NBA
Cavs bench: +1.1, t-6th in NBA

Since February 8, 27 games

Cavs starters: +3.5, 7th in NBA
Cavs bench: +0.6, 9th in NBA

LeBron's +/- was a -0.1 as of 3/20, which covered 70 games of the season.

Before deadline, -0.8 over 53 games, despite this Cavs were 31-22.
Since deadline, +4.7 over 27 games, Cavs are 18-9.

It's an 82 game season.

europagnpilgrim
04-09-2018, 12:47 PM
Its funny how Harden has flipped the script on the media experts/voters

for the past odd years he got the short end from team record success and then the triple dub Westbrook mvp season last year

now lets make a case for Lebron and others rightfully so but the best player on the best team record wise has been the media experts recipe and now will try their hardest to re mix it up because once again Harden is the x factor, Harden has a legit case to be going on his 3rd mvp, outside of Curry unanimous mvp it was his or Bron for the taking

if Bron is wise and CP3 takes a huge pay cut around 15-18mill than say that 35-40mill per year I could see Lebron going to Rockets and play with a mvp caliber/probably 18' winner in Harden to maximize his final 3-5 seasons in finals and probably more than likely winning at least 2 more in a 3-5yr window, if Lebron matches Kobe ring wise then all his fanatics will have a legit case to put him on the goat status, which I call the best/most dominant

if he gets 5 rings watchout for the storylines of Bron/GOAT on every channel possible for days upon days, Jordan fanatics will even be more funny to see outraged and taking up for their ruler, Jordan

europagnpilgrim
04-09-2018, 12:54 PM
Lol so true. Didnít know how dominant those guys were until 30 years later and there still isnít another Drob or Dream

were you just born around Drob/Dream era? because if it took you 30yrs later and watch Capela and Noah play to realize how dominant Drob/Dream were I don't know what to tell you about how you are viewing basketball

we are comparing legit 1st ballot HOF'ers/annual all nba nominees vs. guys who could win MIP 3yrs in a row and possibly still not make a all star game, Noah and Capela do what they do, and that shouldn't take you no longer than 3 seasons max to recognize that, I can do it after your rookie year, 2nd yr max I know what you pretty much are especially if you are getting heavy minutes, even in limited minutes I can tell but its a little more tougher to see, example TMac to me was rotting on the bench than as to him not being capable to showcase what he could do, and that rookie from Boston is decent, nothing special but will be a serviceable player, they wont be on a Towns level but more like a M Gasol level which is not bad, overrated but still a solid player

ODB13
04-09-2018, 01:02 PM
Why not? Any time this guy loses a game it is 100% on his teammates.

Lol

SteBO
04-09-2018, 01:03 PM
He didnít mail it in, he forced the front office to make moves. There is a big diff. He always knows heís gonna turn it on and win the east, but he wanted a chance to win the whole thing, so he did what he had to do, by showing them what the team could do without him going Nova. Then he got a trade made. He would never give up till down 20 with 5 min left to a warriors type team. He ainít giving up on a season midway through lololololol common.
He forced them to make moves by mailing it in. Youíre just not conflating the two, which is fair because I understand it, but LBJ was clearly not engaged because he hated the guys he had around him. Heís great enough to mask it with his #s, but anyone with eyes can see his effort level was low.

I get why he did it, but we can acknowledge that and still call it poor leadership. Bad collection of guys or not, they still take cues from the leader, and LeBronís leadership was poor during that stretch. Heís gotta be held accountable for that, and Iím not for rewarding the guy MVP in spite of it just because he put up flashy #s. I understand the argument, I just canít buy it.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 01:05 PM
Lol...guaranteed youíre the only one who thought that first. Nobody tries harder to destroy Lebron statistics then you my man.

You'd have to be an idiot or completely blinded by fandom not to realize that was simply going to favor whatever player played the most minutes. It's the most basic of metrics I've ever seen, and it's not an argument that has ever been used for MVP... By anyone... Ever. The reaching to make a case for LBJ is seeing new heights.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 01:18 PM
LeBron was as efficient as Harden as a scorer (both around 62% TS%) AND played in 9 more games. I'm definitely on board with giving it to LeBron.

It's more than normal, but certainly not unprecedented, and this is a league where players are missing time more than ever. And if we can see through the tea leaves here, there's probably a reason why LBJ is picking this to be the first time in his career he has played a full season. Harden has all the MVP boxes checked over Bron and the rest, except for that one. To me, no, it is not close enough of a factor to swing the pendulum in his favor. Granted, I'm all for finding reasons not to give someone else a unanimous MVP, so I'm game for this late season manufactured case for Lebron to get some votes.

Lionel20
04-09-2018, 03:44 PM
Clint Capela?

Same height and 5 lbs. lighter than a young Horace Grant... thatís what passes for a legit shot blocker now huh?

I remember when it was Hakeem, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and Dike...

Now itís joakim Noah and Clint capela lol

It's the rule changes. The redefinition of illegal defenses in the early 2000s changed the game. The game is a much more spread out/perimeter game now.

Chronz
04-09-2018, 03:51 PM
It's the rule changes. The redefinition of illegal defenses in the early 2000s changed the game. The game is a much more spread out/perimeter game now.

It made it harder for isolation guys. What made it perimeter oriented came years later. 05 iirc

valade16
04-09-2018, 03:56 PM
No one else is bothered by 9 games? That's over 10% of the season. That'd be the same as an NFL MVP missing 2 games...

I mean, playing in 73 games is still a lot of games. I Also think LeBron coasted for at least 9 games himself prior to the trade deadline so while he was maybe in the game, he was pretty much as absent as Harden was for those 9 games.

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 04:17 PM
If I have time later, I'm going to pick apart OP's post like an eagle picks apart the carcass of its latest victim. But, dear god, did he really try to use total stats instead of average numbers and advanced numbers to make his case for Lebron as the superior offensive player and then back that ridiculous ignorance up by claiming Lebron was better defensively than Harden this season solely off the fact that Harden's teammates are better defensively?

That deserves a pity pyarmid:

:pity:
:pity::pity:
:pity::pity::pity:
:pity::pity::pity::pity:
:pity::pity::pity::pity::pity:
:pity::pity::pity::pity::pity::pity:

Chronz
04-09-2018, 04:22 PM
Bron has been better defensively tho

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 04:22 PM
No one else is bothered by 9 games? That's over 10% of the season. That'd be the same as an NFL MVP missing 2 games...

Two of those games were games he could have easily played in, but didn't because his team had such a huge lead for the top seed. Trying to argue Lebron over Harden because you're suggesting the guy wasn't giving 100 percent every game during the regular season is kind of insanely hypocritical, don't you think?

And Lebron won the MVP in 2013 while missing six games. Is there that much of a difference between six and nine?

mrblisterdundee
04-09-2018, 04:45 PM
Last year's MVP race was everyone getting all high on triple doubles while overlooking Harden. It looks like Westbrook will barely miss that mark this year. I was hoping he'd average another triple double without home court in the first round of the playoffs or a top-five spot in MVP voting. We need to illustrate exactly how pointless his stat-hunting is.
Harden has already won this year's MVP. We all know LeBron is a more important player, but Harden clearly had the better season. His team is clearly much better than LeBron's. People need to get over it.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 05:07 PM
Last year's MVP race was everyone getting all high on triple doubles while overlooking Harden. It looks like Westbrook will barely miss that mark this year. I was hoping he'd average another triple double without home court in the first round of the playoffs or a top-five spot in MVP voting. We need to illustrate exactly how pointless his stat-hunting is.
Harden has already won this year's MVP. We all know LeBron is a more important player, but Harden clearly had the better season. His team is clearly much better than LeBron's. People need to get over it.

Beyond the triple double, Westbrook actually did have a legitimate statistical case last year. Far better than Lebron has this year (and Harden was worse last year). Westbrook had Harden beat in RPM, BPM, VORP and PER. And led the league in most of those stats. Houston was also just a 3 seed, so it softened the blow of OKC being a 6 seed. 'Bron has Harden beat in VORP (simply due to games played), and that's basically it. And obviously the "wow" factor of the triple-double played a huge part in Westbrook's campaign. That combined with his ridiculous close to the season that included multiple game winners and a 50 point triple-double (again with a game winner), while Harden was ****. It's just an apples to oranges comparison on all fronts. Harden is very clearly the MVP this season.

Bostonjorge
04-09-2018, 05:16 PM
No one else is bothered by 9 games? That's over 10% of the season. That'd be the same as an NFL MVP missing 2 games...
CAvs have been blown out by double digits 19 times this year. Thatís like that same NFL MVP getting blown out 4 games.

Lionel20
04-09-2018, 05:48 PM
Up until a couple of weeks ago, Cleveland had actually been outscored with LeBron on the court over the entire season. His +/- now is still just at an average of +1.1 per game. Cleveland's starting lineup has a +/- average of 0.0 for the season, 17th in the NBA, while their bench has a +1.0, good for 7th. This was much more lopsided before the trade deadline when they made the moves to balance their lineups better. While it's not updated for 80 games yet, as of 75 games 82games.com shows that the Cavs have outscored their opponent with LeBron on the court in just 40 of 75 games. Using basic math, that number is now 45/80.

Obviously LeBron is LeBron and I'm not saying that he's only made them marginally better or anything like that, but someone cannot win MVP when their team was outscored with him on the court for almost the entire season. The Cavs were riding their bench to wins for most of the season while LeBron had to carry the starters to just tread water, and the lagging effort on defense for regular season LeBron has been well documented for years.

With James Harden having a fantastic year and leading the Rockets to 60+ wins and the best record in the NBA he is the clear and obvious choice.

Edit: For further clarity, and since NBA.com has a date feature, why not use it?

From start of season to February 8, the trade deadline, 53 games

Cavs starters: -1.8, 22nd in NBA
Cavs bench: +1.1, t-6th in NBA

Since February 8, 27 games

Cavs starters: +3.5, 7th in NBA
Cavs bench: +0.6, 9th in NBA

LeBron's +/- was a -0.1 as of 3/20, which covered 70 games of the season.

Before deadline, -0.8 over 53 games, despite this Cavs were 31-22.
Since deadline, +4.7 over 27 games, Cavs are 18-9.

It's an 82 game season.

James has played with 17 different teammates rotating in and out of the starting lineup. The Cavs are +8.5 offensive rating with James on the floor which has been a league leading 2977 minutes. The Rockets offensive rating is +6.0 with Harden on the court. LeBron has had 457 more minutes to impact the game.

The Cavs are terrible defensively. Opponents shoot .480 from the floor against the Cavs with LeBron on the floor. For context, the league average is .460 FG%, the Denver Nuggets are the worst defensive team in the NBA, opponents shoot .478 against them. But according to the tracking info, players LeBron guards shoot only .446 pct. against him. The Golden State Warriors allow .446 pct. shooting from the floor, and their currently the number 3 defense in the league. As I mentioned in the OP, LeBron also leads the Cavs in Blocks & Steals per game, and rarely sends shooters to the line.

So why is the Cavs defense so bottom of the league poor?

Kevin Love allows opponents to shoot .529 FG%
Tristan Thompson allows opponents .507 FG%
JR Smith allows opponents .470 FG%
Jae Crowder allowed opponents .479 FG%

These players have played a total of 6,205 minutes for the Cavaliers this season and the overwhelming majority of them in the same unit as James. It's no wonder the team defensive efficiency decline when James is on the floor with this lineup. The isolate tracking data shows James to still be an above average defender. The team defensive metrics are misleading, as a result so is the plus/minus, on/off court, which ever team oriented advance stat is pulled.

James is still a better defender than Harden. James has no Capela, Nene, or Mbah a Moute. He has Love, Thompson, and JR Smith. I haven't even gotten into Gordon, Paul, Tucker, and Ariza, teammates Harden has shares the floor with at different points in the game. The Sportwriters watch basketball. They know this. The Rockets are stacked on both sides of the floor. James is more valuable to the Cavaliers than Harden is to the Rockets.

Vee-Rex
04-09-2018, 06:03 PM
James has played with 17 different teammates rotating in and out of the starting lineup. The Cavs are +8.5 offensive rating with James on the floor which has been a league leading 2977 minutes. The Rockets offensive rating is +6.0 with Harden on the court. LeBron has had 457 more minutes to impact the game.

The Cavs are terrible defensively. Opponents shoot .480 from the floor against the Cavs with LeBron on the floor. For context, the league average is .460 FG%, the Denver Nuggets are the worst defensive team in the NBA, opponents shoot .478 against them. But according to the tracking info, players LeBron guards shoot only .446 pct. against him. The Golden State Warriors allow .446 pct. shooting from the floor, and their currently the number 3 defense in the league. As I mentioned in the OP, LeBron also leads the Cavs in Blocks & Steals per game, and rarely sends shooters to the line.

So why is the Cavs defense so bottom of the league poor?

Kevin Love allows opponents to shoot .529 FG%
Tristan Thompson allows opponents .507 FG%
JR Smith allows opponents .470 FG%
Jae Crowder allowed opponents .479 FG%

These players have played a total of 6,205 minutes for the Cavaliers this season and the overwhelming majority of them in the same unit as James. It's no wonder the team defensive efficiency decline when James is on the floor with this lineup. The isolate tracking data shows James to still be an above average defender. The team defensive metrics are misleading, as a result so is the plus/minus, on/off court, which ever team oriented advance stat is pulled.

James is still a better defender than Harden. James has no Capela, Nene, or Mbah a Moute. He has Love, Thompson, and JR Smith. I haven't even gotten into Gordon, Paul, Tucker, and Ariza, teammates Harden has shares the floor with at different points in the game. The Sportwriters watch basketball. They know this. The Rockets are stacked on both sides of the floor. James is more valuable to the Cavaliers than Harden is to the Rockets.

I think anyone suggesting LeBron has been 'arguably the worst defender' in the league needs to read your post.

Edit: I'm making a COMPLETELY different point here, has nothing to do with MVPs. But I think Lionel's data shows just how right some of us has been all along. Love is obviously a bad defender, but:

Thompson has been trash
JR has been trash
Crowder has been trash

Crowder is gone, but cut JR and Tristan from the rotation and this team is sooo much better.

mngopher35
04-09-2018, 06:07 PM
The obvious case against Lebron James as MVP:

James harden

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 06:08 PM
were you just born around Drob/Dream era? because if it took you 30yrs later and watch Capela and Noah play to realize how dominant Drob/Dream were I don't know what to tell you about how you are viewing basketball

we are comparing legit 1st ballot HOF'ers/annual all nba nominees vs. guys who could win MIP 3yrs in a row and possibly still not make a all star game, Noah and Capela do what they do, and that shouldn't take you no longer than 3 seasons max to recognize that, I can do it after your rookie year, 2nd yr max I know what you pretty much are especially if you are getting heavy minutes, even in limited minutes I can tell but its a little more tougher to see, example TMac to me was rotting on the bench than as to him not being capable to showcase what he could do, and that rookie from Boston is decent, nothing special but will be a serviceable player, they wont be on a Towns level but more like a M Gasol level which is not bad, overrated but still a solid player

Yes

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 06:11 PM
He forced them to make moves by mailing it in. Youíre just not conflating the two, which is fair because I understand it, but LBJ was clearly not engaged because he hated the guys he had around him. Heís great enough to mask it with his #s, but anyone with eyes can see his effort level was low.

I get why he did it, but we can acknowledge that and still call it poor leadership. Bad collection of guys or not, they still take cues from the leader, and LeBronís leadership was poor during that stretch. Heís gotta be held accountable for that, and Iím not for rewarding the guy MVP in spite of it just because he put up flashy #s. I understand the argument, I just canít buy it.

Itís great leadership for those there now and those going forward. Leadership for any other player matters not. What he did was the right move and the only move for the ultimate competitor

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 06:14 PM
You'd have to be an idiot or completely blinded by fandom not to realize that was simply going to favor whatever player played the most minutes. It's the most basic of metrics I've ever seen, and it's not an argument that has ever been used for MVP... By anyone... Ever. The reaching to make a case for LBJ is seeing new heights.

Actually no Tre, no realistically possible amount of minute would of gotten Harden more boards. Plus TS% has nada to do with minutes. Plus you have a pretty blatant history...only guy who actually belittles Brons numbers, highlighting his plus menus to do so. Iím not mad at ya, itís just a wonder.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 06:28 PM
Actually no Tre, no realistically possible amount of minute would of gotten Harden more boards. Plus TS% has nada to do with minutes. Plus you have a pretty blatant history...only guy who actually belittles Brons numbers, highlighting his plus menus to do so. Iím not mad at ya, itís just a wonder.

I'm not speaking about their TS% (which is effectively identical, with Harden on higher volume. 31 ppg per-36 to 26.7 ppg per-36), or the fact that the 6'8" SF averages more RPG than the shooting guard. Simply that it is blatant/ridiculous to compare total numbers without even giving context to their minutes/games played. I don't need to belittle Lebron's numbers, and I also don't have to make wild leaps in order to try to prop them up in comparison to Harden. Anyway, this race is not "down to two players". This race effectively ended months ago (so long as Harden and the Rockets kept up their pace, which they did), and only recently has Lebron crawled his way up to a distant 2nd place. As much as you wish I was hating, it's just not the case. It's a fact.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 06:39 PM
For those curious, if you were to bet $100 on James Harden to win MVP today, you would receive $12 in return. A $100 bet on Lebron would net you $450.

More-Than-Most
04-09-2018, 07:05 PM
For those curious, if you were to bet $100 on James Harden to win MVP today, you would receive $12 in return. A $100 bet on Lebron would net you $450.

Yet the warriors have the best odds at winning a championship right now but you act like they are an 18th seed... funny how that works with the argument in this post right? Agenda much?

FOXHOUND
04-09-2018, 07:13 PM
James has played with 17 different teammates rotating in and out of the starting lineup. The Cavs are +8.5 offensive rating with James on the floor which has been a league leading 2977 minutes. The Rockets offensive rating is +6.0 with Harden on the court. LeBron has had 457 more minutes to impact the game.

The Cavs are terrible defensively. Opponents shoot .480 from the floor against the Cavs with LeBron on the floor. For context, the league average is .460 FG%, the Denver Nuggets are the worst defensive team in the NBA, opponents shoot .478 against them. But according to the tracking info, players LeBron guards shoot only .446 pct. against him. The Golden State Warriors allow .446 pct. shooting from the floor, and their currently the number 3 defense in the league. As I mentioned in the OP, LeBron also leads the Cavs in Blocks & Steals per game, and rarely sends shooters to the line.

So why is the Cavs defense so bottom of the league poor?

Kevin Love allows opponents to shoot .529 FG%
Tristan Thompson allows opponents .507 FG%
JR Smith allows opponents .470 FG%
Jae Crowder allowed opponents .479 FG%

These players have played a total of 6,205 minutes for the Cavaliers this season and the overwhelming majority of them in the same unit as James. It's no wonder the team defensive efficiency decline when James is on the floor with this lineup. The isolate tracking data shows James to still be an above average defender. The team defensive metrics are misleading, as a result so is the plus/minus, on/off court, which ever team oriented advance stat is pulled.

James is still a better defender than Harden. James has no Capela, Nene, or Mbah a Moute. He has Love, Thompson, and JR Smith. I haven't even gotten into Gordon, Paul, Tucker, and Ariza, teammates Harden has shares the floor with at different points in the game. The Sportwriters watch basketball. They know this. The Rockets are stacked on both sides of the floor. James is more valuable to the Cavaliers than Harden is to the Rockets.

I think you think I'm saying something that I'm not. Just to reiterate,


Obviously LeBron is LeBron and I'm not saying that he's only made them marginally better or anything like that, but someone cannot win MVP when their team was outscored with him on the court for almost the entire season. The Cavs were riding their bench to wins for most of the season while LeBron had to carry the starters to just tread water, and the lagging effort on defense for regular season LeBron has been well documented for years.

There is an established criteria for the NBA and the other posters saying that this was wrapped up months ago are 100% correct. The MVP is not the best player award, it's the MVP. History has shown that the award is graded in a certain way and Harden has checked off every box to not only win but win very comfortably. Take this anecdote from the last edition of ESPN's Power Rankings, for example.


James Harden is averaging 30.6 points per game this season and the Rockets have 64 wins with two games to go. Only three players in NBA history averaged 30 points per game on a 65-win team, and they each won MVP that season: Stephen Curry (2015-16), Michael Jordan (1991-92 and 1995-96) and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1970-71)

Now, unless you think LeBron has done something otherworldly to override something like that - and let me save you the trouble and say that he has not - there really is no need for this thread to exist. Even if the Cavs were playing like their post break selves all season that would still be just a 54-win pace, which would still slot them in the 2nd or 3rd seed in the east.

LeBron will get some votes for sure and should very well finish 2nd, but he isn't going to finish close to Harden.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 07:17 PM
Yet the warriors have the best odds at winning a championship right now but you act like they are an 18th seed... funny how that works with the argument in this post right? Agenda much?

Lol. Well, if saying that I think they are the slight favorite to win the title if Curry is healthy is "acting like they're the 18th seed", then sure thing big guy.

More-Than-Most
04-09-2018, 07:21 PM
Lol. Well, if saying that I think they are the slight favorite to win the title if Curry is healthy is "acting like they're the 18th seed", then sure thing big guy.

i love it when you talk dirty. Big guy is an upgrade over kid lol.

KnicksorBust
04-09-2018, 07:22 PM
No one else is bothered by 9 games? That's over 10% of the season. That'd be the same as an NFL MVP missing 2 games...

Two of those games were games he could have easily played in, but didn't because his team had such a huge lead for the top seed. Trying to argue Lebron over Harden because you're suggesting the guy wasn't giving 100 percent every game during the regular season is kind of insanely hypocritical, don't you think?

And Lebron won the MVP in 2013 while missing six games. Is there that much of a difference between six and nine?

I am saying I believe their contributions to their teams success and their overall output is similar. That is why I am okay with using the 9 games as the distinction to give it to Bron. I don't remember 2013 offhand. Was there someone close to him in production?

FOXHOUND
04-09-2018, 07:26 PM
I am saying I believe their contributions to their teams success and their overall output is similar. That is why I am okay with using the 9 games as the distinction to give it to Bron. I don't remember 2013 offhand. Was there someone close to him in production?

Kevin Durant, and he didn't even finish all that close. He was 450 points behind LeBron with zero 1st place votes despite leading a 60-win team of his own lmao.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2013.html#mvp

People thinking this is going to be close are in for a big surprise.

nastynice
04-09-2018, 07:27 PM
For those curious, if you were to bet $100 on James Harden to win MVP today, you would receive $12 in return. A $100 bet on Lebron would net you $450.

lmao, wow, that's pretty lopsided

valade16
04-09-2018, 07:31 PM
Lol. Well, if saying that I think they are the slight favorite to win the title if Curry is healthy is "acting like they're the 18th seed", then sure thing big guy.

If the Warriors are healthy, suffice to say they're more than a slight favorite to win the title. I'd imagine your minimalist view on their odds is likely the crux of his comment about you thinking they are the 18th seed.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 07:32 PM
I am saying I believe their contributions to their teams success and their overall output is similar. That is why I am okay with using the 9 games as the distinction to give it to Bron. I don't remember 2013 offhand. Was there someone close to him in production?

In 2010 the 21 yr old KD lead the league in scoring while putting up 30/8/3 and played all 82 games. He got 4 1st place votes. Lebron 116.

Based on team/statistical precedent, BBREF's MVP tracker gives Lebron an 8.6% chance to win the award. Keep beating that non existent drum boys.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 07:37 PM
If the Warriors are healthy, suffice to say they're more than a slight favorite to win the title. I'd imagine your minimalist view on their odds is likely the crux of his comment about you thinking they are the 18th seed.
Considering he is projected to be healthy, no, unfortunately I don't think so. And apparently neither does Vegas (as they had identical odds a few days ago, and currently are still very close). I'm not sure if you've been paying very close attention, but the Rockets are a juggernaut of historical proportions and have HCA through the playoffs. Those who think the Warriors - even healthy - are steamrolling those guys are just not watching enough hoops this year. Granted, I do have faith that the Warriors would pull it out in 6 or 7. 4 or 5 is extremely unlikely (it's more likely they lose in 7). That is, if the Warriors get out of the 1st round. Which is far from a lock itself.

valade16
04-09-2018, 07:38 PM
In 2010 the 21 yr old KD lead the league in scoring while putting up 30/8/3 and played all 82 games. He got 4 1st place votes. Lebron 116.

Based on team/statistical precedent, BBREF's MVP tracker gives Lebron an 8.6% chance to win the award. Keep beating that non existent drum boys.

There really is no legitimate argument in terms of historical criteria for LeBron at this point. Outside the belief that he is the best player in the league, he certainly hasn't played like it for most of the year. He doesn't have the best stats and his team doesn't have the most wins. Heck, the Cavs have been for the most part a dysfunctional mess that has underachieved. I'm not sure a single player has won MVP on a team that has underachieved in the regular season before.

JasonJohnHorn
04-09-2018, 07:49 PM
LBJ deserves consideration and I'd be inclined to vote for either him or Harden as my first choice.

For Harden... it's like... people are saing 'Antoni deserves COY, and CP3 iis a huge factor on that team too. Harden is having an amazing season, but he has a LOT of support.


He has a coach running a system that supports his style of play, a PG that stepped up the playmaking on the team, and a supprting cat who compliment him.


Statistically, you might point to some issues in LBJ's game. I think that's fair; however, context is important.


One might say he 'packed it in' leading up to the ASG, but he had been playing at a very high level prior to IT coming back, and then when IT did return to action, he really threw a wrench into what the Cavs had been doing. He wasn't playing D, he was shooting 25% from the arc and 36% overall from the field, and it was hurting the Cavs.

When LBJ got a fresh batch of guys to work with, he was able to get back on track.


Also... Harden has CP3 barking at his teammates to get them in position on plays. You see Harden do that? I mean... in Cleveland, LBJ is the coach on the floor, making sure guy follow rotation on plays and are in the right position defensively. This is something that is EXTREMELY important to the team's success, and without James asserting himself in those situations, the Cavs wouldn't be performing nearly as well.

Admittedly, LBJ can be a distraction to the team with his vague tweets, but his oncourt production and leadership/coaching are critical to this team. If you put a guy like KD or a healthy Leonard on this squad, they likely would struggle for a playoff spot, especially with the injuries they've had. With LBJ, they are in a position to have home court and make it to the finals.


I think if you swapped out Harden and LBJ in Houston and Cleveland, the Rockets would be a stronger playoff contender, and the Cavs might not make the playoffs at all. That is debateable of course...



Harden is deserving for sure. But this isn't a season where it should be unanimous at all. LBJ has an equally strong case. But I think it is between those two clearly.


Also, now that we've see what Westy and OCK look like with two all-stars thrown onto their team, and what the Spurs look like without Leonard, I think it is safe to say that we should retroactively take that MVP award away from Westy and give it to it's proper owner.

valade16
04-09-2018, 08:05 PM
LBJ deserves consideration and I'd be inclined to vote for either him or Harden as my first choice.

For Harden... it's like... people are saing 'Antoni deserves COY, and CP3 iis a huge factor on that team too. Harden is having an amazing season, but he has a LOT of support.

He has a coach running a system that supports his style of play, a PG that stepped up the playmaking on the team, and a supprting cat who compliment him.

Statistically, you might point to some issues in LBJ's game. I think that's fair; however, context is important.

One might say he 'packed it in' leading up to the ASG, but he had been playing at a very high level prior to IT coming back, and then when IT did return to action, he really threw a wrench into what the Cavs had been doing. He wasn't playing D, he was shooting 25% from the arc and 36% overall from the field, and it was hurting the Cavs.

When LBJ got a fresh batch of guys to work with, he was able to get back on track.

Also... Harden has CP3 barking at his teammates to get them in position on plays. You see Harden do that? I mean... in Cleveland, LBJ is the coach on the floor, making sure guy follow rotation on plays and are in the right position defensively. This is something that is EXTREMELY important to the team's success, and without James asserting himself in those situations, the Cavs wouldn't be performing nearly as well.

Admittedly, LBJ can be a distraction to the team with his vague tweets, but his oncourt production and leadership/coaching are critical to this team. If you put a guy like KD or a healthy Leonard on this squad, they likely would struggle for a playoff spot, especially with the injuries they've had. With LBJ, they are in a position to have home court and make it to the finals.

I think if you swapped out Harden and LBJ in Houston and Cleveland, the Rockets would be a stronger playoff contender, and the Cavs might not make the playoffs at all. That is debateable of course...

Harden is deserving for sure. But this isn't a season where it should be unanimous at all. LBJ has an equally strong case. But I think it is between those two clearly.

Also, now that we've see what Westy and OCK look like with two all-stars thrown onto their team, and what the Spurs look like without Leonard, I think it is safe to say that we should retroactively take that MVP award away from Westy and give it to it's proper owner.

When has that ever hindered an MVP? Generally, the more support they have the more likely they are to win MVP because their team's record looks better and their stats look better.

Jeffy25
04-09-2018, 08:15 PM
The Cavs might not even win 50 games in the weak east.


/thread

Not a team award

/thread

ODB13
04-09-2018, 09:41 PM
Not a team award

/thread

Individuals carry teams in the NBA, whereas they don't in MLB. You can't be MVP if you didn't carry your team to particular heights.

You're really out of your depth when you're not talking about individual baseball statistics.

FlashBolt
04-09-2018, 10:01 PM
Actual value, I don't see how Harden has contributed more to his team.

But under how they have voted for much of NBA, it's James Harden's award to lose.

But let's be honest here, Rockets just have a better team with better management. And that doesn't get taken into consideration but it's just true. And he's been clutch in many games because he just has to be.

cmellofan15
04-09-2018, 10:15 PM
James Harden deserves it this year, just like I believe he deserved it last year. MVP shouldnít be a pity award for a great player on a middling team. It has more times than not been the best player on one of the teams with the best record.

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 10:25 PM
According to reports I've followed from the sportswriters serving as potential voters on the 2017-18 MVP award, it appears it's down to two players -- James Harden and LeBron James.

Harden is the overwhelming favorite due to the advantage he holds with his teams success, the Rockets currently own the top record in the NBA and are projected for 66 wins. James' team is currently ranked 4th the Eastern Conference, projected to win 51 games.
Team record is hardy the only reason Harden is the favorite candidate and acting as if that's the case is just flat out disrespectful. As I stated in another thread recently, Harden has the edge in scoring, AST%, PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM and pretty much all other advanced statistics.


Last year, Russell Westbrook won the MVP by 135 points over 2nd Place James Harden. Westbrook's Thunder were a 6th seed in the Western Conference, winning just 47 games.
Why is this significant?


James
(proj.)
Total pts = 2271
Total ast = 752
Total off reb = 99
Total tov = 349
TS% = .621

Harden
(proj.)
Total pts = 2229
Total ast = 636
Total off reb = 41
Total tov = 318
TS% = .620

Westbrook
(2017)
Total pts = 2558
Total ast = 840
Total off reb = 137
Total tov = 438
TS% = .554

First off, quit using total numbers. Literally NOBODY looks at total numbers when comparing per season statistics. That's not just antiquated, it's flat out ignorant, and any competent NBA could tell you that in a heartbeat.


2017 Westbrook has the higher volume of production, but is clearly the most inefficient of the bunch. Yet, Westbrook finished last season with nearly 70% of all first place votes. Harden finished with 47 less first place votes than Westbrook last season with numbers that are overall similar to this year's campaign. One difference, the Rockets acquired Chris Paul, and are on pace to win 11 more games than last year. The Rockets are 15-8 without Paul this season (65%). In other words, the Rockets are basically the same team they were last year (55-27, .67 win%) without Paul in the lineup. Paul, in nearly 60 games this season is clearly explains the 10 or 11 win improvement for the Rockets.

James and the Cavs lost Kyrie Irving in the 2017 offseason. The Cavs are currently on pace for the exact same record as last year. The one constant, is that James has elevated his play to compensate for the absence of the All Star Point Guard.

Like Harden, James' most effective teammate, Kevin Love missed over 20 games. The Cavs went 13-9, unlike the Rockets minus Paul, showed no drop-off, with James again picking up the slack in his absence.
I'm sorry, but your logic is mind-numbingly stupid. Like Michael Bay movie level of stupid. The Rockets have a BETTER record without Paul than the Cavs have without Love, and somehow you're trying to justify that this is an obvious win for Lebron? How in the hell can you make that case? What are you drinking/smoking that allows you to look at that argument and come to that conclusion?


The Cavs have had 18 different starters this year, James and JR Smith the only players to start at least 60 games. JR Smith has been a liability for the Cavs, whereas Capela and Ariza -- the 2nd and 3rd most consistent Rockets' starters -- have made positive contributions for the Rockets, especially on the defensive end.
Again, I made this argument against Flashbolt in the other thread, but Lebron having inferior teammates and finishing with a substantially worse record does not make his case stronger than Harden's. If he had inferior teammates and finished maybe a handful of games behind the Rockets? Sure. But that's simply not the case here. Harden is playing for a team that will end up with one of the 20 best records in the history of the NBA, and Lebron's Cavs are fighting to get the 4 seed in an inferior conference.


The Defensive Comparison

Critics have come out in full force against James' defense this year, some in same breath praising Harden on that end of the floor for the first time in his career. The Cavs have one of the worst defenses in the NBA. But it's important to point out that most leading defensive metrics such DPM or Defensive Rating, don't have way to isolate individual defensive performance apart from team defense. For example, having a solid rim protector can cover a lot of flaws in perimeter defenders if you just take in the advanced stats.

The Cavs have been awful defensively, 2nd to last in team Defensive Rating. But that doesn't necessarily translate into LeBron being terrible. LeBron is far in away the Cavs best shot blocker (71), the next closest is Jeff Green (32). James is arguably the Cavs best perimeter defender as well, George Hill and Cedi Osman honorable mention. The average offensive player that LeBron guards shoots .459 from the field against the rest of the league, when James guards them, he holds them to .446, 1.3% below their league average. In Harden's case the average player he defends shoots .458 from the field regularly, when Harden defends them they shoot slightly higher at .461 from the field.
According to 82games, PGs are averaging a 15.3 PER against Harden, while SGs are boasting a 16.7 PER. Meanwhile, SFs boast an 18.7 PER against Lebron and PFs average a 21.0 PER against him. I'm sorry, but you can't possibly make the case that Lebron's defense makes him a better candidate this season over Harden. In previous years? Absolutely. But Lebron has been an absolute sieve on that end, and his defensive problems have been a huge reason why the Cavs have struggled at times this season, as they're unable to rely on him to play otherworldly team defense like they have in the past.


Harden also has 142 defensive fouls in 460 less minutes than James (including 20 more shooting fouls) -- James has committed only 100 defensive fouls in a league leading 2977 minutes played.
Last time I checked, fouls aren't a barometer of quality defense. If we're going to make that argument, then how about the fact that Harden has Lebron beat in terms of steals?


Harden plays with a bonafide shot blocker in Clint Capela. Meanwhile Eric Gordon is easily the perimeter defender on the Rockets this season. But NeNe, Mbah a Moute, along with Capela and Gordon have more so than Harden helped the Rockets to top defensive Team this year. Ariza, Tucker, and Paul although inconsistent, have arguably been better than anyone playing the majority of the 2017-18 season on the Cavs roster not named LeBron James. The Rockets currently have no players playing as poor defensively as Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson, and Rodney Hood.
Who cares? Literally your entire argument thus far has been "Lebron's team isn't as good as Harden, therefore he deserves the MVP." At what point are you going to actually look at their production and impact on the team to make that decision and stop looking at everything around them?


In short, the Rockets have stout defensive players that help provide the content for the defensive metrics like Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares which inflate Harden effectiveness on the defensive side of the ball. When we attempt to contextualize base on team personnel and isolate each players defensive performance through the player tracking data it appears to show James having regressed from an elite defender to slightly above average, and Harden slightly below average.

Just as you can't take things like DWS and DRtg at face value, you can't completely dismiss them either. As somebody who watched a lot of Rockets games, the guy has been pretty darn solid on the defensive end this season. With the new way they play defense, he's constantly being switched on the teams can attempt to take advantage of him, but they rarely do. He's giving up 0.8 points per possession in isos and post ups. Part of that is that he's a great post defender against bigs for a SG, and part of it is that when he's forced to guard players in isolation and give a ****, he's pretty damn tough to score on because of his size and quick hands.

Horrible transition defender? Absolutely. Mediocre help defender? Sure. But in 1 on 1 situations, he's hardly the worst defender on the team.


So James has had the most offensive impact, both through total minutes on the court and offensive efficiency.
Total minutes is a ****ing joke. Stop it. Harden scored more points on essentially an identical TS% while boasting the higher AST%.


James is also the better defensive player.
Is he? Yes. Has he played that way this season? No.


And with Westbrook setting what may be a new precedent last year, winning the MVP while playing on a 6th seed

Seeding had nothing to do with it. They cared more about the fact that he averaged a triple double. You want a precedent? In the history of the NBA, a player has averaged 30+ points on a 65-win team three times. All three times, that player has won MVP. Harden is about to become No. 4.


let's see if the sportwriter's -- armed with more advanced stats in the last four years than all of prior NBA History -- will actually select the league's most valuable player for the MVP award.
What advanced stats? In this entire asinine post, the only advanced statistic you've used is TS%. You've completely ignored PER, WS/48, VORP, AST%, BPM, ORtg and DRtg, where Harden has an advantage across the board. If anyone looked at advanced numbers, in fact, this argument would be over in a second because Harden crushes Lebron this season. It's no contest.

Seriously, dude, you have no leg to stand on with this post.

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 10:32 PM
Actual value, I don't see how Harden has contributed more to his team.
Literally every advanced statistic that men much smarter than you or I use to judge NBA production suggests otherwise. Also, if you want to use things outside of the actual sport and production on the court to argue value (which you seem to keep wanting to do), then how about the fact that Lebron is instrumental in Kyrie leaving and Harden was instrumental in attracting Lebron?

Also, Harden's playstyle has effectively made every role player on that team better. You think Clint Capela would be this productive without Harden's elite pick and roll creation skills? Would guys like Ariza, Tucker and Mbah a Moute be as dangerous as shooters without him? Seriously, this team is built completely around Harden's strengths as a player, and he is what makes them hum offensively. This isn't D'Antoni's system. It's Harden's system.


But under how they have voted for much of NBA, it's James Harden's award to lose.
Rightfully so. Better numbers + Better team record = Better MVP case. Pretty much an open and shut case.


But let's be honest here, Rockets just have a better team with better management. And that doesn't get taken into consideration but it's just true. And he's been clutch in many games because he just has to be.
Your entire argument (and OP's for that matter) hinges on Lebron's supporting cast not being as good. While I can understand that as a barometer for the award, using that as your sole barometer for the award is just dumb. Let it go, man. Harden is the MVP, and he has been for months.

FlashBolt
04-09-2018, 10:36 PM
Literally every advanced statistic that men much smarter than you or I use to judge NBA production suggests otherwise. Also, if you want to use things outside of the actual sport and production on the court to argue value (which you seem to keep wanting to do), then how about the fact that Lebron is instrumental in Kyrie leaving and Harden was instrumental in attracting Lebron?

Also, Harden's playstyle has effectively made every role player on that team better. You think Clint Capela would be this productive without Harden's elite pick and roll creation skills? Would guys like Ariza, Tucker and Mbah a Moute be as dangerous as shooters without him? Seriously, this team is built completely around Harden's strengths as a player, and he is what makes them hum offensively. This isn't D'Antoni's system. It's Harden's system.


Rightfully so. Better numbers + Better team record = Better MVP case. Pretty much an open and shut case.


Your entire argument (and OP's for that matter) hinges on Lebron's supporting cast not being as good. While I can understand that as a barometer for the award, using that as your sole barometer for the award is just dumb. Let it go, man. Harden is the MVP, and he has been for months.

How many times did I say Harden should win MVP? Are you that obsessed with the award? Okay, you're right. MVP = Harden. Just stop quoting me, please. I'm sick of it.

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 10:38 PM
As for what players and analysts think about who deserves MVP, I'll just leave these here:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/4/9/17213702/james-harden-mvp-all-nba
https://www.sbnation.com/2018/3/29/17173724/nba-mvp-ballot-list-james-harden-lebron-james
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22883017/espn-forecast-james-harden-win-first-mvp-landslide
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/02/15/we-asked-100-media-members-who-the-nba-mvp-is-it-wasnt-close/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6562a92d9ea4
http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/james-harden-mvp-demar-derozan-houston-rockets-nba-raptors-toronto/1i97qpwx7lq161sbtl20ork78g
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/warriors-steph-curry-says-rockets-james-harden-is-leader-in-the-clubhouse-for-mvp/
https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/2018/04/03/houston-rockets-kevin-durant-james-harden-lebron-mvp-frontrunner-race/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2763385-nba-mvp-is-james-hardens-to-lose-but-who-else-actually-belongs-in-the-debate

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 10:38 PM
How many times did I say Harden should win MVP? Are you that obsessed with the award? Okay, you're right. MVP = Harden. Just stop quoting me, please. I'm sick of it.

Quit being wrong and I won't have to. :shrug:

Lionel20
04-09-2018, 11:19 PM
I think you think I'm saying something that I'm not. Just to reiterate,



There is an established criteria for the NBA and the other posters saying that this was wrapped up months ago are 100% correct. The MVP is not the best player award, it's the MVP. History has shown that the award is graded in a certain way and Harden has checked off every box to not only win but win very comfortably. Take this anecdote from the last edition of ESPN's Power Rankings, for example.



Now, unless you think LeBron has done something otherworldly to override something like that - and let me save you the trouble and say that he has not - there really is no need for this thread to exist. Even if the Cavs were playing like their post break selves all season that would still be just a 54-win pace, which would still slot them in the 2nd or 3rd seed in the east.

LeBron will get some votes for sure and should very well finish 2nd, but he isn't going to finish close to Harden.

There is no "established criteria"... well at least that I'm aware of -- if you know otherwise please disclose it. Is it in the league bylaws or something somewhere?

A hundred or so sportswriters each get a ballot and submit their votes -- 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., each placing carries a certain number of points, the points are totaled up and winner is declared. I'm sure there's a process for qualifying the media voters, but there's no strict criteria.

Westbrook won last year. His Thunder team won only 47 games as a 6th seed. He amassed a large amount of counting stats while averaging a triple double. But he was terribly inefficient compared to LeBron. Westbrook posted the 2nd highest amount of total turnovers, according to NBA miner 2.96 bad passes per game, missed 1,117 field goals, and had a TS% of .554.

Westbrook won the MVP last year with 69 first place votes to Harden's 22. Harden's Rockets won 7 more games than the Thunder and clinched the 3 seed. LeBron is having a better year than Westbrooks 2016-17, the Cavaliers are arguably a better team than the 2016-17 Thunder, likely finishing with four more wins. All things considered, Harden is having a year fairly equivalent to last year. The difference is Chris Paul. But if the writers do what they did last year and emphasize the overall individual numbers as opposed to prioritizing team success I'm sure they'd come to the conclusion that James is more valuable than Harden.

Again, I don't know what there going to do, I just know this year LeBron James is the most valuable player in the NBA, again.

FlashBolt
04-09-2018, 11:24 PM
Quit being wrong and I won't have to. :shrug:

It's not wrong. You think it's wrong because you're solely basing it off of advanced numbers - which are not indicative of actual value. If it was, we need to go back and change the entire MVP ranking for all years because it's all wrong. It's definitely an argument. But I've said before, numerous times, that Harden will and should win MVP but I feel like LeBron has done more for his respective team. That's not a hard take to support. You want Harden to win, great. But stop making it seem as if your answer is hardcore solid proof because it isn't. 2015-2016 Curry was. 2013-2014 LeBron was. Now quit responding to the SAME post with the SAME reply every time. I never said Harden shouldn't win MVP. I'm not sure what you have trouble understanding.

tp13baby
04-09-2018, 11:38 PM
LBJ is having a great year but people should ease on this MVP thing. It is Harden this year. We all know team success is the first thing to look at this thing barring a historical TD season.

I've become a huge LBJ fan late in his carrier but some people look like they'll vote for LBJ on anything without looking at the concept or context.

If it is team success based letís give the ROY to Mitchell then and the part where he may lead his team as the number one option to a Northwest title and 3 seed in the west.

You can give the MVP to Lebron every year basically but Harden will get it.

mightybosstone
04-09-2018, 11:40 PM
It's not wrong. You think it's wrong because you're solely basing it off of advanced numbers - which are not indicative of actual value. If it was, we need to go back and change the entire MVP ranking for all years because it's all wrong. It's definitely an argument. But I've said before, numerous times, that Harden will and should win MVP but I feel like LeBron has done more for his respective team. That's not a hard take to support. You want Harden to win, great. But stop making it seem as if your answer is hardcore solid proof because it isn't. 2015-2016 Curry was. 2013-2014 LeBron was. Now quit responding to the SAME post with the SAME reply every time. I never said Harden shouldn't win MVP. I'm not sure what you have trouble understanding.
Hi, kettle. I'm pot. You're black.

tredigs
04-09-2018, 11:46 PM
If it is team success based letís give the ROY to Mitchell then and the part where he may lead his team as the number one option to a Northwest title and 3 seed in the west.

You can give the MVP to Lebron every year basically but Harden will get it.

Faulty logic in trying to compare MVP to ROY aside, the Sixers have a better record than the Jazz, so...

I do think Mitchell warrants a case in that race, though. I'd vote for Ben but it's not unreasonable to think it's Mitchell.

Chronz
04-09-2018, 11:55 PM
Individuals carry teams in the NBA, whereas they don't in MLB. You can't be MVP if you didn't carry your team to particular heights.

You're really out of your depth when you're not talking about individual baseball statistics.

Always wondered about that cliche. Does it hold true in college as well? If so, why do so many greats not win by virtue of being a superior talent amongst children

tredigs
04-10-2018, 12:00 AM
Always wondered about that cliche. Does it hold true in college as well? If so, why do so many greats not win by virtue of being a superior talent amongst children

In college, coaches reign supreme, and many individual talents aren't given the proper style to benefit their skill set because most coaches simply play the same style every season regardless of their cast. You're also often playing with sub-par players and/or in the modern game, 1 and done players for 30 some odd games who you haven't had a chance to gel with. Thirdly, they still have a ton to learn and have not unlocked their full potential. And while the tournament being 1 and done creates high variance so the best team often loses, you still see the most stacked teams often have the most wins in the reg season.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-10-2018, 12:51 AM
Assume Harden will get it, but don't really care. I do know only 1 of these 2 will go *****ing to the media when he doesn't get it.

JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2018, 01:53 AM
When has that ever hindered an MVP? Generally, the more support they have the more likely they are to win MVP because their team's record looks better and their stats look better.

Does it hinder you? It depends on the level of support.

Shaq only has one MVP despite deserving several because he had Kobe.

KD and Curry just cancelled each other out for MVP consideration as long as they are together.


If you have support, like Harden has an All-Star PG (snubbed this year) and former All-Star forward and some strong rotation players... you can certainly still get the cred you deserve.

But having two MVPs on the same team and 2 or 3 more all-star-level players... well... you kissed your MPV chances good bye.

It depends on context. Shaq and Kobe cancelled each ther out. Curry and KD cancel each other out. Wade and LBJ cancelled each other out their first year together.


But yeah... having support doesn't always hinder somebody. That said... a guy with less support who does better has a stronger case in terms of being valuable to his team. If you have more support, that makes you less valuable. No?

Fair point though. The right kind of support helps a lot, and you have to have at least enough to get mid 50s wins or more in the current climate, otherwise voters won't cnsider you.

ewing
04-10-2018, 05:57 AM
The Cavs were supposed to be more successful this year. Supposedly, they crushed at the trade deadline and still will come short of regular season expectation. I know, its hard to hear but LeBron has a hand in this team losing too. Its not all LeBron when they win and all the of the other guys when they lose. When you are a teams leader and that team under achieves you are not MVP.

WaDe03
04-10-2018, 09:25 AM
Hi, kettle. I'm pot. You're black.

Racist!

Jamiecballer
04-10-2018, 09:47 AM
If he ďpacked it inĒ by averaging 27/8/9 54% shooting, the rest of the league did so too.That doesn't make any sense dude.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
04-10-2018, 09:53 AM
He didnít mail it in, he forced the front office to make moves. There is a big diff.

I claim this for my sig

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

WaDe03
04-10-2018, 09:54 AM
It should be unanimous for Harden.

ewing
04-10-2018, 09:59 AM
Team record is hardy the only reason Harden is the favorite candidate and acting as if that's the case is just flat out disrespectful. As I stated in another thread recently, Harden has the edge in scoring, AST%, PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM and pretty much all other advanced statistics.


Why is this significant?


First off, quit using total numbers. Literally NOBODY looks at total numbers when comparing per season statistics. That's not just antiquated, it's flat out ignorant, and any competent NBA could tell you that in a heartbeat.


I'm sorry, but your logic is mind-numbingly stupid. Like Michael Bay movie level of stupid. The Rockets have a BETTER record without Paul than the Cavs have without Love, and somehow you're trying to justify that this is an obvious win for Lebron? How in the hell can you make that case? What are you drinking/smoking that allows you to look at that argument and come to that conclusion?


Again, I made this argument against Flashbolt in the other thread, but Lebron having inferior teammates and finishing with a substantially worse record does not make his case stronger than Harden's. If he had inferior teammates and finished maybe a handful of games behind the Rockets? Sure. But that's simply not the case here. Harden is playing for a team that will end up with one of the 20 best records in the history of the NBA, and Lebron's Cavs are fighting to get the 4 seed in an inferior conference.


According to 82games, PGs are averaging a 15.3 PER against Harden, while SGs are boasting a 16.7 PER. Meanwhile, SFs boast an 18.7 PER against Lebron and PFs average a 21.0 PER against him. I'm sorry, but you can't possibly make the case that Lebron's defense makes him a better candidate this season over Harden. In previous years? Absolutely. But Lebron has been an absolute sieve on that end, and his defensive problems have been a huge reason why the Cavs have struggled at times this season, as they're unable to rely on him to play otherworldly team defense like they have in the past.


Last time I checked, fouls aren't a barometer of quality defense. If we're going to make that argument, then how about the fact that Harden has Lebron beat in terms of steals?


Who cares? Literally your entire argument thus far has been "Lebron's team isn't as good as Harden, therefore he deserves the MVP." At what point are you going to actually look at their production and impact on the team to make that decision and stop looking at everything around them?


Just as you can't take things like DWS and DRtg at face value, you can't completely dismiss them either. As somebody who watched a lot of Rockets games, the guy has been pretty darn solid on the defensive end this season. With the new way they play defense, he's constantly being switched on the teams can attempt to take advantage of him, but they rarely do. He's giving up 0.8 points per possession in isos and post ups. Part of that is that he's a great post defender against bigs for a SG, and part of it is that when he's forced to guard players in isolation and give a ****, he's pretty damn tough to score on because of his size and quick hands.

Horrible transition defender? Absolutely. Mediocre help defender? Sure. But in 1 on 1 situations, he's hardly the worst defender on the team.


Total minutes is a ****ing joke. Stop it. Harden scored more points on essentially an identical TS% while boasting the higher AST%.


Is he? Yes. Has he played that way this season? No.


Seeding had nothing to do with it. They cared more about the fact that he averaged a triple double. You want a precedent? In the history of the NBA, a player has averaged 30+ points on a 65-win team three times. All three times, that player has won MVP. Harden is about to become No. 4.


What advanced stats? In this entire asinine post, the only advanced statistic you've used is TS%. You've completely ignored PER, WS/48, VORP, AST%, BPM, ORtg and DRtg, where Harden has an advantage across the board. If anyone looked at advanced numbers, in fact, this argument would be over in a second because Harden crushes Lebron this season. It's no contest.

Seriously, dude, you have no leg to stand on with this post.

Guys its time to throw in the towel. all arguments for LeBron other then "but I love him" have been dismantled

JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2018, 10:54 AM
The Cavs were supposed to be more successful this year. Supposedly, they crushed at the trade deadline and still will come short of regular season expectation. I know, its hard to hear but LeBron has a hand in this team losing too. Its not all LeBron when they win and all the of the other guys when they lose. When you are a teams leader and that team under achieves you are not MVP.

As this is a subjective matter, obviously the argument can go any number of ways, and you raise some valid points.

I do feel that sometimes people are quick to blame LBJ's teammates for short comings and give him credit for their successes (with the exception of the finals againt the Mavs of course, which everybody place sqaurely on LBJ's shoulders).

I think in Miami... Bosh's change in style, Wade's pressure on D, and Spo's coaching were all critical, but James got a lot of credit for those two titles.


With this season... I don't feel like the Cavs were in a position to be better than last year at any point after the trade. I mean... they won 51 games last year and are in a position to do the same this year WITHOUT Kyrie... and with Love missing significant time. So... the fact that he has help the team play at the same level despite losing two All-Stars is quite impressive.

IT is an inferor player to Kyrie by far in every possible measure. On top of that, he essentially didn't play for the Cavs. He was out for the first third of the season, and when he came back, he wasn't where he needed to be and was frankly dragging the team down with his horrid defense and woeful 'shooting'.

Once they got rid of him and brought in some nice pieces (and you are correct, they did kill it at the trade deadline), Love went down with injury.

Now you have a one-all-star team. This, in a conference where the Celtics have three all-stars (two of them on the court for most of the year), the Raptors with two all-stars and a great bench. And Philly with a talented young squad.

In that context, there was no reason to expect the Cavs to do better this year than they did last year.


LBJ did a great job of holding the team together. Again... if they win their last game, they've won as many as they did last year with Love and Kryie on the roster. That's pretty impressive.


Does that make him MVP? It depends on your view. I feel like this team, with KD, or PG, or Leonard, would have been a lottery team. I feel that LBJ's presense on the floor, in terms of mentoring players, and being an extension of the coaching staff, and getting guys in their places defensively, and calling the right plays.... that kept the team competitive. Does that make him MVP?

There are obviously statistical arguments that suggest Harden should be MVP, and I'll gladly concede that the stats are in Harden' favour. Total wins? And in a more competitive conference? That goes to Harden as well. But LBJ didn't have anybody as much of a leader and as talented as CP3 on this roster. He didn't have a coach putting in an offensive system that gets everybody going the way 'Antoni did for the Rockets.


When you watch the Cavs games, and you see James spotting match-up issues on the floor, and then calling plays, and jamming that play down the other teams' throat three or four times and exploiting it until they make the change he knows they will make, and then exploiting the new match-up before they even have a chance to know what is going on... that is genuis. He sees a defensive switch the other team is doing, and he spots the match-up issue before it happens and rotates over. Harden doesn't do things like that. And the thing is, in those situations, it's sometimes not even LBJ getting the assist or the basket.

Like that Fry/Wade play earlier in the season: https://streamable.com/n6fl6

There was another one with Nance I can find, but he ran it twice and on the third play the team made the switch, and rather than passing it off to Nance, he exploited the switch himself.

There was also a defensive play, in one of the last games where the opposing team (I think Washington) created a mismatch, and James called a switch before the post player got a chance to exploit the smaller player.


I'm not suggeting that LBJ is a clear cut chocie over Harden. Stats/team performance... Harden is the clear choice there. But there are other ways a team can be 'important' or 'valuable' to his team. I think the Rockets have a three-headed monster. They have Harden who is engine.... they have Paul who is the conductor, and they have 'Antoni who is the guy who designed the machine. With the Cavs... there isn't much of a design, and LBJ has taken on both the role that Harden has, and the role that Paul has... and that makes hime extremely valuable to the team.


Does that make him MVP? It depends on your oppinion, but I think there is a debate worth having here.

mightybosstone
04-10-2018, 11:17 AM
Does it hinder you? It depends on the level of support. Shaq only has one MVP despite deserving several because he had Kobe. KD and Curry just cancelled each other out for MVP consideration as long as they are together.
If Paul had played 75+ games, I think the case could be made that it hurts Harden a little bit in the same way that Curry and Durant cancel each other out. Because he's been damn good in Houston. But with him missing nearly a third of the season, I don't think Paul will or should hurt Harden's MVP candidacy that much.


If you have support, like Harden has an All-Star PG (snubbed this year) and former All-Star forward and some strong rotation players... you can certainly still get the cred you deserve.
Former All-Star forward? Who are you talking about here? Joe Johnson? Because that dude has been abysmal in Houston thus far. Rockets fans dread any time he comes on the floor, and it's an inside joke that the Rockets are winning games in spite of him.


But yeah... having support doesn't always hinder somebody. That said... a guy with less support who does better has a stronger case in terms of being valuable to his team. If you have more support, that makes you less valuable. No?

Fair point though. The right kind of support helps a lot, and you have to have at least enough to get mid 50s wins or more in the current climate, otherwise voters won't cnsider you.

The support argument is a fair one, IMO, if all other factors are close. If you've got two guys posting similar numbers whose teams are no more than maybe 5-6 games apart, then the guy doing more with less is probably going to get a bump in the minds of voters. But the Rockets are going to end up like 15 games better than the Cavs, and Harden's advanced numbers are just a tier above Lebron at this point.

valade16
04-10-2018, 11:52 AM
If Paul had played 75+ games, I think the case could be made that it hurts Harden a little bit in the same way that Curry and Durant cancel each other out. Because he's been damn good in Houston. But with him missing nearly a third of the season, I don't think Paul will or should hurt Harden's MVP candidacy that much.

Former All-Star forward? Who are you talking about here? Joe Johnson? Because that dude has been abysmal in Houston thus far. Rockets fans dread any time he comes on the floor, and it's an inside joke that the Rockets are winning games in spite of him.

The support argument is a fair one, IMO, if all other factors are close. If you've got two guys posting similar numbers whose teams are no more than maybe 5-6 games apart, then the guy doing more with less is probably going to get a bump in the minds of voters. But the Rockets are going to end up like 15 games better than the Cavs, and Harden's advanced numbers are just a tier above Lebron at this point.

It also would have likely hurt Harden's chances if the Rockets fell apart without CP3 playing, but although they were neigh unbeatable with Harden/CP3/Capela, they still did extremely well when CP3 was out and Harden played.

ewing
04-10-2018, 12:12 PM
As this is a subjective matter, obviously the argument can go any number of ways, and you raise some valid points.

I do feel that sometimes people are quick to blame LBJ's teammates for short comings and give him credit for their successes (with the exception of the finals againt the Mavs of course, which everybody place sqaurely on LBJ's shoulders).

I think in Miami... Bosh's change in style, Wade's pressure on D, and Spo's coaching were all critical, but James got a lot of credit for those two titles.


With this season... I don't feel like the Cavs were in a position to be better than last year at any point after the trade. I mean... they won 51 games last year and are in a position to do the same this year WITHOUT Kyrie... and with Love missing significant time. So... the fact that he has help the team play at the same level despite losing two All-Stars is quite impressive.

IT is an inferor player to Kyrie by far in every possible measure. On top of that, he essentially didn't play for the Cavs. He was out for the first third of the season, and when he came back, he wasn't where he needed to be and was frankly dragging the team down with his horrid defense and woeful 'shooting'.

Once they got rid of him and brought in some nice pieces (and you are correct, they did kill it at the trade deadline), Love went down with injury.

Now you have a one-all-star team. This, in a conference where the Celtics have three all-stars (two of them on the court for most of the year), the Raptors with two all-stars and a great bench. And Philly with a talented young squad.

In that context, there was no reason to expect the Cavs to do better this year than they did last year.


LBJ did a great job of holding the team together. Again... if they win their last game, they've won as many as they did last year with Love and Kryie on the roster. That's pretty impressive.


Does that make him MVP? It depends on your view. I feel like this team, with KD, or PG, or Leonard, would have been a lottery team. I feel that LBJ's presense on the floor, in terms of mentoring players, and being an extension of the coaching staff, and getting guys in their places defensively, and calling the right plays.... that kept the team competitive. Does that make him MVP?

There are obviously statistical arguments that suggest Harden should be MVP, and I'll gladly concede that the stats are in Harden' favour. Total wins? And in a more competitive conference? That goes to Harden as well. But LBJ didn't have anybody as much of a leader and as talented as CP3 on this roster. He didn't have a coach putting in an offensive system that gets everybody going the way 'Antoni did for the Rockets.


When you watch the Cavs games, and you see James spotting match-up issues on the floor, and then calling plays, and jamming that play down the other teams' throat three or four times and exploiting it until they make the change he knows they will make, and then exploiting the new match-up before they even have a chance to know what is going on... that is genuis. He sees a defensive switch the other team is doing, and he spots the match-up issue before it happens and rotates over. Harden doesn't do things like that. And the thing is, in those situations, it's sometimes not even LBJ getting the assist or the basket.

Like that Fry/Wade play earlier in the season: https://streamable.com/n6fl6

There was another one with Nance I can find, but he ran it twice and on the third play the team made the switch, and rather than passing it off to Nance, he exploited the switch himself.

There was also a defensive play, in one of the last games where the opposing team (I think Washington) created a mismatch, and James called a switch before the post player got a chance to exploit the smaller player.


I'm not suggeting that LBJ is a clear cut chocie over Harden. Stats/team performance... Harden is the clear choice there. But there are other ways a team can be 'important' or 'valuable' to his team. I think the Rockets have a three-headed monster. They have Harden who is engine.... they have Paul who is the conductor, and they have 'Antoni who is the guy who designed the machine. With the Cavs... there isn't much of a design, and LBJ has taken on both the role that Harden has, and the role that Paul has... and that makes hime extremely valuable to the team.


Does that make him MVP? It depends on your oppinion, but I think there is a debate worth having here.

No offense but after reading this and watching that clip I feel like you will be blown away by anything he does. Sorry i think Harden could spot a cutter coming off a curl. I'm confident he can direct traffic on offensive too. He is an elite NBA play maker

As for team performance you make some decent points. Still I think we can agree with the Cavs did not exceed expectations. On the other hand the Rockets did.

As for Harden having CP3. You are right he does and his team excelled both with him on and off the court. They have exceeded expectations.

As for Harden having the Dantoni system, you are right he does and pick and roll players have always excelled under Mike. At the same time no team is has been built more to maximize one guy more then Clev imo. Clev goes small and surrounds Bron shooters. They have basically punted rim protection and alienated anyone that wants be more then a stationary floor spacer the majority of the time. Regardless, I don't think you should gain or lose points based on fit when it comes to MVP.

Bottom line is Harden is the leader of a team that has been great all year and better then a projection of there assets would have suggested. He is also the most impressive player by the numbers. Bron has great but lesser numbers and his team's success has not exceeded expectation.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 12:26 PM
Lmao, I'm seeing FS1 at work right now and superhomer Colin Cowherd is parading this same argument for LeBron as "the clear MVP" due to the total of his points+rebounds+assists. So I see where this comes from now. Trying to find new and innovative ways to get LBJ one last MVP.

Desperation is a stinky cologne.

Htownballa1622
04-10-2018, 12:33 PM
Is this really a thread?

Harden is so clearly the mvp. Mbt has literally said all that needs to be said. I just can't wait for Harden to get this mvp so he can never be mentioned in the stupid mvp races again because everyone will try to discredit him no matter what.

Chronz
04-10-2018, 12:50 PM
Clutch factor is about the only ace in the hole in James pocket. If he wins this one, we should take away the one wade could've had

FlashBolt
04-10-2018, 12:51 PM
Is this really a thread?

Harden is so clearly the mvp. Mbt has literally said all that needs to be said. I just can't wait for Harden to get this mvp so he can never be mentioned in the stupid mvp races again because everyone will try to discredit him no matter what.

They discredit his playoff gameplay.. not his regular season dominance. And that's a legitimate concern for Harden.

Chronz
04-10-2018, 12:58 PM
The Cavs were supposed to be more successful this year. Supposedly, they crushed at the trade deadline and still will come short of regular season expectation. I know, its hard to hear but LeBron has a hand in this team losing too. Its not all LeBron when they win and all the of the other guys when they lose. When you are a teams leader and that team under achieves you are not MVP.

So because people were wrong about Isaiah being healthy (not me, I warned ya'll he might suck, tho it didn't prevent you from boasting after a single game lol) we're suppose to punish bron for winning as many games as hedid last yearbut with way less talent and far more injuries/ turnover, why?


Truth is. The Cavs overachieved, check out their expected winning% vs their actual winning% and then look at the man most responsible, it's easy to see why he gets so much credit as this has honestly been one of the most clutch (on both ends) seasons I've seen from anyone in awhile. That said, it's hard to blame a guy like harden for winning games sooner tho that does help his stats.

Still, only you could make runner up sound like a let down season lmao. The hate is strong in you. Stick to trying to convince people a dpoy wouldn't help a team's defense overall sawfty like Bosh spice

ewing
04-10-2018, 01:02 PM
So because people were wrong about Isaiah being healthy (not me, I warned ya'll he might suck, tho it didn't prevent you from boasting after a single game lol) we're suppose to punish bron for winning as many games as hedid last yearbut with way less talent and far more injuries/ turnover, why?


Truth is. The Cavs overachieved, check out their expected winning% vs their actual winning% and then look at the man most responsible, it's easy to see why he gets so much credit as this has honestly been one of the most clutch (on both ends) seasons I've seen from anyone in awhile. That said, it's hard to blame a guy like harden for winning games sooner tho that does help his stats.

Still, only you could make runner up sound like a let down season lmao. The hate is strong in you. Stick to trying to convince people a dpoy wouldn't help a team's defense overall sawfty like Bosh spice

Color me unimpressed

Chronz
04-10-2018, 01:11 PM
Color me unimpressed
Same winning% with far less help and far more timely hooping and you you're unimpressed? Lmao then who did impress you this year outside of harden hose?

valade16
04-10-2018, 01:13 PM
So because people were wrong about Isaiah being healthy (not me, I warned ya'll he might suck, tho it didn't prevent you from boasting after a single game lol) we're suppose to punish bron for winning as many games as hedid last year but with way less talent and far more injuries/ turnover, why?

Truth is. The Cavs overachieved, check out their expected winning% vs their actual winning% and then look at the man most responsible, it's easy to see why he gets so much credit as this has honestly been one of the most clutch (on both ends) seasons I've seen from anyone in awhile. That said, it's hard to blame a guy like harden for winning games sooner tho that does help his stats.

Still, only you could make runner up sound like a let down season lmao. The hate is strong in you. Stick to trying to convince people a dpoy wouldn't help a team's defense overall sawfty like Bosh spice

The Cavs overachieved only if you are going by amended expectations. Before the season started they were projected to win more than this, to get a higher seed than this, and to be better than this.

I also don't like the argument about how much turnover because the turnover was to get rid of the bad players and remake the team with better ones. Why should we act like it was some hardship he had to go through to get superior players than what he had before?

Chronz
04-10-2018, 01:32 PM
The Cavs overachieved only if you are going by amended expectations. Before the season started they were projected to win more than this, to get a higher seed than this, and to be better than this.

I also don't like the argument about how much turnover because the turnover was to get rid of the bad players and remake the team with better ones. Why should we act like it was some hardship he had to go through to get superior players than what he had before?
Why would we go by outdated expectations?

Because the turnover still requires an interim adjustment, his was plagued by multiple interruptions and the initial change was actually with FAR inferior support.

ewing
04-10-2018, 01:34 PM
Same winning% with far less help and far more timely hooping and you you're unimpressed? Lmao then who did impress you this year outside of harden hose?

By the Cavs win total. They coasted last year and were expected to win more. If it wasnít for the fact that mailed in the regular season last year they would have had even higher expectations this season. James created a circus and chased away all other play makers. The fact that they have gotten to 50 wins is a credit to his greatness the fact that they were a dysfunctional mess that needed as much as they did from to him to get there is also on James


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HandsOnTheWheel
04-10-2018, 01:40 PM
Lot of James fanboys here lol

Vee-Rex
04-10-2018, 01:52 PM
By the Cavs win total. They coasted last year and were expected to win more. If it wasnít for the fact that mailed in the regular season last year they would have had even higher expectations this season. James created a circus and chased away all other play makers. The fact that they have gotten to 50 wins is a credit to his greatness the fact that they were a dysfunctional mess that needed as much as they did from to him to get there is also on James


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Is IT completely innocent and absolved of all blame to you?

tredigs
04-10-2018, 01:55 PM
The fact that LBJ ensured that TT and JR will be making >32 mil a year for this year + multiple future seasons is more than enough reason to say that a lack of help can never be used to support his case for MVP on these Cavs. Ever.

Btw fellas, how soon you forget how many games the Cavs bench won for them early on in this season. They were as much a reason for keeping the team afloat as James was. And I say "afloat", because nothing about their season was impressive in the least.

HandsOnTheWheel
04-10-2018, 02:03 PM
The fact that LBJ ensured that TT and JR will be making >32 mil a year for this year + multiple future seasons is more than enough reason to say that a lack of help can never be used to support his case for MVP on these Cavs. Ever.

Btw fellas, how soon you forget how many games the Cavs bench won for them early on in this season. They were as much a reason for keeping the team afloat as James was. And I say "afloat", because nothing about their season was impressive in the least.

Yeah he ****ed up bad influencing those contracts. Same reason why former greats make terrible GM's (see Jordan, Isiah Thomas, Doc Rivers, etc.)

ewing
04-10-2018, 02:08 PM
Is IT completely innocent and absolved of all blame to you?

I blame him for playing bad when he was on Cleveland. Its a circus every regular season in Clev

valade16
04-10-2018, 02:11 PM
Why would we go by outdated expectations?

Because the turnover still requires an interim adjustment, his was plagued by multiple interruptions and the initial change was actually with FAR inferior support.

So once their expectations changed once again after the trade are we holding the Cavs to those expectations or to the expectations we had with the old cast knowing they were garbage?

Vee-Rex
04-10-2018, 02:19 PM
The fact that LBJ ensured that TT and JR will be making >32 mil a year for this year + multiple future seasons is more than enough reason to say that a lack of help can never be used to support his case for MVP on these Cavs. Ever.

Btw fellas, how soon you forget how many games the Cavs bench won for them early on in this season. They were as much a reason for keeping the team afloat as James was. And I say "afloat", because nothing about their season was impressive in the least.

Truth.

His stupid and ridiculous way of forcing his front office to overpay TT and JR has ****ed us over quite a bit. And while he didn't exactly do the same thing with Shumpert, I can imagine the front office felt obligated to keep the team together for fear of backlash.

As for the bench, it literally put wins on the board for us. Wade was balling, Green was balling, and I can't count how many times Korver saved us.

HandsOnTheWheel
04-10-2018, 02:24 PM
Truth.

His stupid and ridiculous way of forcing his front office to overpay TT and JR has ****ed us over quite a bit. And while he didn't exactly do the same thing with Shumpert, I can imagine the front office felt obligated to keep the team together for fear of backlash.

As for the bench, it literally put wins on the board for us. Wade was balling, Green was balling, and I can't count how many times Korver saved us.

Yeah, I thought Cavs should have held onto Wade for that bench strength and what he would bring them in the playoffs. A heavily protected 2nd rounder for him? lol what a joke

Vee-Rex
04-10-2018, 02:25 PM
I blame him for playing bad when he was on Cleveland. Its a circus every regular season in Clev

The circus didn't cause guys like Korver, Love, RJ, Channing, or even Crowder who came from the same team to publicly call out the team and throw the coaches under the bus.

ewing
04-10-2018, 02:46 PM
The circus didn't cause guys like Korver, Love, RJ, Channing, or even Crowder who came from the same team to publicly call out the team and throw the coaches under the bus.

He played like ****. The fact that he said the team had issues when an insurrection was going on doesn't brother me. Do you really think IT's comments are what broke the team? Maybe his inability to get a long with Bron and maybe he has his share in that but the rest is spin

Vee-Rex
04-10-2018, 02:54 PM
He played like ****. The fact that he said the team had issues when an insurrection was going on doesn't brother me. Do you really think IT's comments are what broke the team? Maybe his inability to get a long with Bron and maybe he has his share in that but the rest is spin

He had his share in the dysfunction. That's all I was saying. JFC man it's crazy how much it takes you to see past your hatred for LeBron and agree that IT caused issues too.

nastynice
04-10-2018, 03:16 PM
Is IT completely innocent and absolved of all blame to you?

Not completely, but the amount of hate he was getting while playing clearly still injured was pretty overboard. I donít know how much of the hip injury could be put on IT, maybe he pushed a lil too hard to prove himself before his free agency, thatís the only fault I can see on him.

nastynice
04-10-2018, 03:23 PM
Truth.

His stupid and ridiculous way of forcing his front office to overpay TT and JR has ****ed us over quite a bit. And while he didn't exactly do the same thing with Shumpert, I can imagine the front office felt obligated to keep the team together for fear of backlash.

us.

ďFear of backlashĒ, lol only lebron!

HandsOnTheWheel
04-10-2018, 03:23 PM
Not completely, but the amount of hate he was getting while playing clearly still injured was pretty overboard. I donít know how much of the hip injury could be put on IT, maybe he pushed a lil too hard to prove himself before his free agency, thatís the only fault I can see on him.

No he sucked pretty bad. Replacement to Kyrie?? No.

Htownballa1622
04-10-2018, 03:40 PM
They discredit his playoff gameplay.. not his regular season dominance. And that's a legitimate concern for Harden.

But I'm talking about regular season too. The mvp bar moves every time harden is in the race.

Harden will go down as one of the more underappreciated stars ever because ppl hate him or his game. (Cp3 and Bron higher on that underappreciated list too btw)

ewing
04-10-2018, 04:09 PM
He had his share in the dysfunction. That's all I was saying. JFC man it's crazy how much it takes you to see past your hatred for LeBron and agree that IT caused issues too.

one guy is a tornado of dysfunction every year, quit on the team this year (not the first time he done that), and threw a fit demanding everyone be traded. Its the same story with this guys supporters he get credit for everything that goes right and absolved from anything bad. I give Bron credit for being a great basketball player I just criticize him for being an awful teammate as well. Him an IT didn't get a long and Bron wasn't having it.

JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2018, 04:26 PM
If Paul had played 75+ games, I think the case could be made that it hurts Harden a little bit in the same way that Curry and Durant cancel each other out. Because he's been damn good in Houston. But with him missing nearly a third of the season, I don't think Paul will or should hurt Harden's MVP candidacy that much.

I agree. I mean... as you've demonstrated, Harden's stats are insane and Harden deserves this MVP, no question. And you are right, Paul shouldn't hurt his MVP chances. I merely mention the CP3 issue because Harden (who is a leader himself, but more of a lead-by-example guy) has help with leadership from CP3, who (like LBJ) does a lot of coaching on the court and pushes guys (he reminds me of MJ and Kidd in this respect).





Former All-Star forward? Who are you talking about here? Joe Johnson? Because that dude has been abysmal in Houston thus far. Rockets fans dread any time he comes on the floor, and it's an inside joke that the Rockets are winning games in spite of him.

That's my bad. I was actually referring to Andersen... I thought he had got an All-stat spot in Orlando. Got it mixed up with his MIP award.

But I do feel that Harden's support (CP3 the leading one, and then strong defenders like Ariza and Capella, three point shooters all around-including Andersen and Ariza, as well as CP3-an strong scorer like Gordon, and sem great vet role players like Nene, JJ).

Don't get me wrong... I dont' say this as a knock on Harden. He's got better support than LBJ, and he has accordingly led them to a far more impressive record than LBJ has led the Cavs. Were the Rockets and the Cavs neck-and-neck in the win column, it would make a difference, but Harden has gotten the wins out of this squad that he shoudl have.



The support argument is a fair one, IMO, if all other factors are close. If you've got two guys posting similar numbers whose teams are no more than maybe 5-6 games apart, then the guy doing more with less is probably going to get a bump in the minds of voters. But the Rockets are going to end up like 15 games better than the Cavs, and Harden's advanced numbers are just a tier above Lebron at this point.

Overall, I think Harden is a clear MVP choice. He deserves it. I just think there is a case for LBJ, not statistically, but more so with respect to how he guides/coaches the team while putting up the MVP-calubre stats.

It's a toss up to me.... my mind changes on this from one day to the other, but in part because Harden may have gotten robbed last year (I had Leonad then Harden with Westy in third), I feel like this year, in addition to putting up a season that deserves the MVP award, they really need to make it up to him for last year.

LBJ has already beeb recognized for his efforts a number of times, and while there is a strong case for him this year, and though I'd have no issue with him getting it, I'd be just as happy with Harden getting it (perhaps happier because I like to see the love spread around a bit).



I might change my mind tomorrow though. But looking at stats and wins alone, there is no case for anybody but Harden.

Chronz
04-10-2018, 05:27 PM
The fact that LBJ ensured that TT and JR will be making >32 mil a year for this year + multiple future seasons is more than enough reason to say that a lack of help can never be used to support his case for MVP on these Cavs. Ever.

Btw fellas, how soon you forget how many games the Cavs bench won for them early on in this season. They were as much a reason for keeping the team afloat as James was. And I say "afloat", because nothing about their season was impressive in the least.
Yeah bron should have totally forgo that legendary title for cap flexibility.

You're wrong, the bench was a strength primarily because bron played with the worst players outside of love. All those bench units killed it when bron was out there. Given the turmoil, to end up with the same record and far above expected value, bron is the easy runner up. The Cavs have been meh but not everyone is blessed with talent that could win without an arguable goat

Chronz
04-10-2018, 05:29 PM
So once their expectations changed once again after the trade are we holding the Cavs to those expectations or to the expectations we had with the old cast knowing they were garbage?
Who cares? Just go by the information at present rather than obsessing with predictions.

What exactly are you arguing

valade16
04-10-2018, 05:37 PM
Who cares? Just go by the information at present rather than obsessing with predictions.

What exactly are you arguing

That the Cavaliers have fallen short of expectations. Obviously if they turn it on in the playoffs and go to the Finals I will have been underestimating them.

But at the beginning of the season, nobody expected this level of dysfunction and mediocre play for much of the year from them. Whether I agree with the MVP going to someone who is better but only for a small part of the regular season or not, that's what MVP voters look at, and Harden and the Rockets have been great from start to finish.

Harden is absolutely going to win this MVP award.

FlashBolt
04-10-2018, 06:44 PM
That the Cavaliers have fallen short of expectations. Obviously if they turn it on in the playoffs and go to the Finals I will have been underestimating them.

But at the beginning of the season, nobody expected this level of dysfunction and mediocre play for much of the year from them. Whether I agree with the MVP going to someone who is better but only for a small part of the regular season or not, that's what MVP voters look at, and Harden and the Rockets have been great from start to finish.

Harden is absolutely going to win this MVP award.

Short of expectations is purely that.. expectations. If you look at what actually happened, J.R./TT/IT/Crowder/Rose were the worst players on the court on both teams. Then take a look at the injuries on the Cavs for the better part of the year. It's just a dysfunctional regular season in which Lebron has been the only consistent individual putting up great numbers and performances even with a changing starting lineup. I get that LeBron caused a few of these problems but let's not pretend that it was all his fault or something.. He never wanted Kyrie to leave but Cavs management tried to trade Kyrie and he found out. And it's been established that he felt IT's hip would not heal as well as everyone expected. You can't trade away your 2nd best player in Kyrie for basically Jae Crowder and then have Love injured for nearly 2 months and not give credit to LeBron for holding it down with an injury-ridden roster. At one point, Korver+Nance+Hood+Love+Osman+TT were all out and they had to start Jeff Green at center.. dude still made it work.

ewing
04-10-2018, 06:50 PM
Who cares? Just go by the information at present rather than obsessing with predictions.

What exactly are you arguing

I care. They did not exceed expectations. Bron is the established leader of the team. if multiple guys under perform and the team has trouble gelling he takes some of the Heat. Thatís how being a leader works.


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valade16
04-10-2018, 06:52 PM
Short of expectations is purely that.. expectations. If you look at what actually happened, J.R./TT/IT/Crowder/Rose were the worst players on the court on both teams. Then take a look at the injuries on the Cavs for the better part of the year. It's just a dysfunctional regular season in which Lebron has been the only consistent individual putting up great numbers and performances even with a changing starting lineup. I get that LeBron caused a few of these problems but let's not pretend that it was all his fault or something.. He never wanted Kyrie to leave but Cavs management tried to trade Kyrie and he found out. And it's been established that he felt IT's hip would not heal as well as everyone expected. You can't trade away your 2nd best player in Kyrie for basically Jae Crowder and then have Love injured for nearly 2 months and not give credit to LeBron for holding it down with an injury-ridden roster. At one point, Korver+Nance+Hood+Love+Osman+TT were all out and they had to start Jeff Green at center.. dude still made it work.

I'm not blaming LeBron for that. LeBron performed very well for parts of the season, but he clearly coasted through other parts.

I think he's the best player in the league, but that is not who gets the MVP. He did not play as well as Harden in the regular season.

And yes, to an extent expectations are arbitrary, but they are a huge influence on MVP. LeBron got beat by Rose in part because of LeBron fatigue/hatred, but in part because the Bulls vastly exceeded expectations. Nash won his 2nd MVP because everybody thought they'd do worse without Amare and they exceeded those expectations.

Harden and the Rockets have far exceeded expectations. That is why Harden is going to win and not LeBron despite LeBron being the superior player when he tries.

valade16
04-10-2018, 06:57 PM
Here's the ultimate question, if their situations were reversed, and Harden had the inferior stats, had coasted for parts of the season, but had had a ton of dysfunction and the Rockets had made a mid-season trade where as LeBron was on a team vastly exceeding expectations and putting up historic numbers (both individually and as a team) and was on the #1 seed.

Who would everyone be picking for MVP? I imagine almost everybody would be picking LeBron James, so there's a bit of a double standard there. If Harden were on the Cavs with Bron's exact stats and the Cavs exact record vs LeBron on Houston with Harden's exact stats and Houston's exact record, LeBron would likely win unanimous MVP.

ewing
04-10-2018, 07:00 PM
Here's the ultimate question, if their situations were reversed, and Harden had the inferior stats, had coasted for parts of the season, but had had a ton of dysfunction and the Rockets had made a mid-season trade where as LeBron was on a team vastly exceeding expectations and putting up historic numbers (both individually and as a team) and was on the #1 seed.

Who would everyone be picking for MVP? I imagine almost everybody would be picking LeBron James, so there's a bit of a double standard there. If Harden were on the Cavs with Bron's exact stats and the Cavs exact record vs LeBron on Houston with Harden's exact stats and Houston's exact record, LeBron would likely win unanimous MVP.

No doubt LeBron would win unanimously.


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tredigs
04-10-2018, 07:45 PM
Yeah bron should have totally forgo that legendary title for cap flexibility.

You're wrong, the bench was a strength primarily because bron played with the worst players outside of love. All those bench units killed it when bron was out there. Given the turmoil, to end up with the same record and far above expected value, bron is the easy runner up. The Cavs have been meh but not everyone is blessed with talent that could win without an arguable goat
To your first point, what are you talking about? Lol. Not sure if you realize that they have not won a title since either of those signed, or what your point there is at all.

To the 2nd point, even with your hilarious caveat of "besides the 20/10 All Star Power Forward, the bench was better", who cares? They were winning games more often than not when Lebron and Love were sitting, and the bench was doing the heavy lifting. You'd hope to be more than treading water with the greatest player on the planet + an All Star if we're going to go around parading him as the MVP. But, the fact is that they weren't. We're not here to give the b2b2 Eastern Conference champs kudos because they out-clutched/lucked their way into beating out their end of the season "expected value" of 43 wins. The reason their expected value is what it is (if you have not put this together), is because good teams have beat the **** out of them, and they have beat the **** out of bad teams. That's why they have so few close games, are sub .500 against teams with a winning record, and have a net +/- just above 0.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 07:48 PM
Here's the ultimate question, if their situations were reversed, and Harden had the inferior stats, had coasted for parts of the season, but had had a ton of dysfunction and the Rockets had made a mid-season trade where as LeBron was on a team vastly exceeding expectations and putting up historic numbers (both individually and as a team) and was on the #1 seed.

Who would everyone be picking for MVP? I imagine almost everybody would be picking LeBron James, so there's a bit of a double standard there. If Harden were on the Cavs with Bron's exact stats and the Cavs exact record vs LeBron on Houston with Harden's exact stats and Houston's exact record, LeBron would likely win unanimous MVP.

Literally nobody would make the case that Harden is the MVP. Especially Harden (we're looking at you Lebron).

Jamiecballer
04-10-2018, 07:57 PM
I care. They did not exceed expectations. Bron is the established leader of the team. if multiple guys under perform and the team has trouble gelling he takes some of the Heat. Thatís how being a leader works.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDitto. Well said friend.

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Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 08:17 PM
Lebron SHOULD win MVP. He won't though.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 08:19 PM
I care. They did not exceed expectations. Bron is the established leader of the team. if multiple guys under perform and the team has trouble gelling he takes some of the Heat. Thatís how being a leader works.

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You vote MVP based on a team exceeding expectations? Lol. Though to be fair, the majority seem to do so (which is why Casey will win COTY).

I'd suggest use the obvious and better criteria by voting for the best player instead. We rarely have this problem when voting DPOY.

mightybosstone
04-10-2018, 08:24 PM
Lebron SHOULD win MVP. He won't though.

Why? Why should he win MVP? I'm so sick of this "should" ********. People keep saying that, but I haven't seen a single legitimate case for why.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 08:27 PM
Why? Why should he win MVP? I'm so sick of this "should" ********. People keep saying that, but I haven't seen a single legitimate case for why.

I'm kinda late to the party. I can provide an explanation if you really want it but I wouldn't be saying anything that probably has not been said in this thread (I'll probably just copy and paste to save time) and everything I'll probably say has already been argued against.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 08:29 PM
I'm not blaming LeBron for that. LeBron performed very well for parts of the season, but he clearly coasted through other parts.

I think he's the best player in the league, but that is not who gets the MVP. He did not play as well as Harden in the regular season.

And yes, to an extent expectations are arbitrary, but they are a huge influence on MVP. LeBron got beat by Rose in part because of LeBron fatigue/hatred, but in part because the Bulls vastly exceeded expectations. Nash won his 2nd MVP because everybody thought they'd do worse without Amare and they exceeded those expectations.

Harden and the Rockets have far exceeded expectations. That is why Harden is going to win and not LeBron despite LeBron being the superior player when he tries.

And that's a bit of a shame.

Do we ever have this much of a problem when voting DPOY? I certainly hope people are voting for the best defensive players in the league and not because they looked good and/or are better defensively than expected, otherwise Durant would be DPOY this year. :laugh2:

SteBO
04-10-2018, 08:31 PM
Iím sorry, you can make a case for ĎBron if you want, but Harden without question should win MVP unanimously imo. Iím not down with rewarding a guy whoís been a contributing factor to the Cavs roller coaster season.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 08:45 PM
So once their expectations changed once again after the trade are we holding the Cavs to those expectations or to the expectations we had with the old cast knowing they were garbage?

Let's just **** the expectations.

That's the mentality that cost James Harden the MVP over Westbrook last year. We all knew Harden played better than Westbrook by the end of the year. But because Westbrook exceed expectations by averaging a triple double (when most people didn't think to would ever happen in their lifetimes), he won it over the more deserving player. Let's not make the same mistake twice here (not to say Harden has played bad, but let's not water down the award when Lebron and Harden playing essentially an arms reach apart).

The next ballhog who averages more points than Wilt's 50 per game will probably win MVP too even if he shot the ball as bad as Iverson.

Allphakenny1
04-10-2018, 08:55 PM
And that's a bit of a shame.

Do we ever have this much of a problem when voting DPOY? I certainly hope people are voting for the best defensive players in the league and not because they looked good and/or are better defensively than expected, otherwise Durant would be DPOY this year. :laugh2:

So who do you have for DPOY, Kawhi or Draymond? These two players are the best defenders in the league and have been the last few years. So by the same logic people are claiming for LeBron being MVP, one of these two should be your DPOY.

Just to make it obvious, neither of these two are deserving of the award this year.

ewing
04-10-2018, 09:00 PM
So who do you have for DPOY, Kawhi or Draymond? These two players are the best defenders in the league and have been the last few years. So by the same logic people are claiming for LeBron being MVP, one of these two should be your DPOY.

Just to make it obvious, neither of these two are deserving of the award this year.

Ive thought the Rudy was the most impactful defensive player in the league for some time. Heíll win and rightfully so


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Allphakenny1
04-10-2018, 09:08 PM
Ive thought the Rudy was the most impactful defensive player in the league for some time. Heíll win and rightfully so


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I agree he should win this year, but both Kawhi and Draymond have been better for years now. So the argument that LeBron should be MVP because of his history and not actually having to prove it, should that work the same for DPOY? Draymond has not been the elite defender he has been in the past and Kawhi has barely played all season. It would be foolish to claim they should win a award based on this year only because of their past dominance.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 09:15 PM
Ive thought the Rudy was the most impactful defensive player in the league for some time. Heíll win and rightfully so


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Draymond rightfully got it last year imo. Insane combo of paint + wing protection that nobody else could match. Gobert probably will win this year. Draymond coasted/wasn't very good, Kawhi was out, and Thabo had a little steam early but he's out. PG might get some votes. Embiid some more. But Gobert (in 55 games played) has the momentum.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 09:37 PM
So who do you have for DPOY, Kawhi or Draymond? These two players are the best defenders in the league and have been the last few years. So by the same logic people are claiming for LeBron being MVP, one of these two should be your DPOY.

Just to make it obvious, neither of these two are deserving of the award this year.

I'm not sure how you even got close to making that comparison. I thought it was pretty obvious when I said "best defensive player", it really meant "best defensive player (that season)". Hence why I brought up DPOY because generally, voters have been voting for players who had the best defensive impact regardless of the petty things like team feuds and expectations that everyone seems to want to discuss this year.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 09:39 PM
I agree he should win this year, but both Kawhi and Draymond have been better for years now. So the argument that LeBron should be MVP because of his history and not actually having to prove it, should that work the same for DPOY? Draymond has not been the elite defender he has been in the past and Kawhi has barely played all season. It would be foolish to claim they should win a award based on this year only because of their past dominance.

I think you misunderestood here but that's probably on me. When I say "best player", I'm referring strictly as who performed as the best player THAT season, not arbitrary player rankings.

So maybe to rephrase it "Who individually performed as the best player (which should disregard things like team performance, expectations, etc)"? And I would probably disagree with someone who would argue that Harden performed as the best player than Lebron this season.

ewing
04-10-2018, 09:39 PM
[QUOTE=tredigs;32274106]Draymond rightfully got it last year imo. Insane combo of paint + wing protection that nobody else could match. Gobert probably will win this year. Draymond coasted/wasn't very good, Kawhi was out, and Thabo had a little steam early but he's out. PG might get some votes. Embiid some more. But Gobert (in 55 games played) has the momentum.[/

I think Rudy is by the far the most impactful defender in the league. KL is your best one on one guy against almost anyone. Green brings a combination of skills other donít but Rudy makes a defense. Everyone gets to stay home when you drive on Utah. Heís just a different breed.


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valade16
04-10-2018, 09:47 PM
I think you misunderestood here but that's probably on me. When I say "best player", I'm referring strictly as who performed as the best player THAT season, not arbitrary player rankings.

So maybe to rephrase it "Who individually performed as the best player (which should disregard things like team performance, expectations, etc)"? And I would probably disagree with someone who would argue that Harden performed as the best player than Lebron this season.

I don't see how. Virtually every stat and advanced metric has Harden as clearly the more impactful player this season.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 09:53 PM
Draymond rightfully got it last year imo. Insane combo of paint + wing protection that nobody else could match. Gobert probably will win this year. Draymond coasted/wasn't very good, Kawhi was out, and Thabo had a little steam early but he's out. PG might get some votes. Embiid some more. But Gobert (in 55 games played) has the momentum.

I think Rudy is by the far the most impactful defender in the league. KL is your best one on one guy against almost anyone. Green brings a combination of skills other donít but Rudy makes a defense. Everyone gets to stay home when you drive on Utah. Heís just a different breed.


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Yeah, I mean I would not choose to take a strong stance against that statement, but the counter is that he gets put on an island against crafty guards/wings during a switch. So they often have to ensure he's in the block unless it's the end of the shot clock. It's a huge bonus to have an athletic/huge/smart rim protector as far as the rest of the D goes (they can overplay going over the top on switches at the top of the arc and know that if they get blown by they'll likely have to settle for a mid-range jumper with Rudy there), but overall in the current game, I think Draymond flying all over the court guarding literally whoever he lands on at a high level is just ridiculously valuable. This year though it's Rudy with Embiid in 2nd imo.

ewing
04-10-2018, 10:07 PM
Yeah, I mean I would not choose to take a strong stance against that statement, but the counter is that he gets put on an island against crafty guards/wings during a switch. So they often have to ensure he's in the block unless it's the end of the shot clock. It's a huge bonus to have an athletic/huge/smart rim protector as far as the rest of the D goes (they can overplay going over the top on switches at the top of the arc and know that if they get blown by they'll likely have to settle for a mid-range jumper with Rudy there), but overall in the current game, I think Draymond flying all over the court guarding literally whoever he lands on at a high level is just ridiculously valuable. This year though it's Rudy with Embiid in 2nd imo.

You might be right when it matters. Are their teams, like the Warriors that can put Rudy in enough bad spots where he becomes a minus? Itís possible and definitely hurts his value overall if true. I still think over the course of a season he is the most impactful defender in the league


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Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 10:08 PM
I don't see how. Virtually every stat and advanced metric has Harden as clearly the more impactful player this season.

I'll have to find the article but I read someone a few weeks ago about a comparison between Harden and Lebron's stats adjusting for their team. I'll see if I can find it but pretty much he summed it up that Lebron/Harden's performance isn't too far off from each other if you consider things like how much easier it is to do XYZ having Paul instead of Calderon/IT/Hill as a teammate.

Though now that I think about it, I guess if we are going with the criteria of who performed better, adjusting for teammates shouldn't apply (unless we are then going based on value of Lebron to the Cavs and value of Harden to the Rockets). I'll still see if I can find it.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 10:15 PM
You might be right when it matters. Are their teams, like the Warriors that can put Rudy in enough bad spots where he becomes a minus? Itís possible and definitely hurts his value overall if true. I still think over the course of a season he is the most impactful defender in the league


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Yeah, I think any team that runs enough actions that can get Rudy out on the perimeter early in the clock with a ball savvy guard (and they're are a lot now) can exploit him like this. When Curry's on the court against him, it's their go-to. Creates situations like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havKN_lv72E


He's clearly one of the top defenders of the current generation, but in this age I'm more willing to take the drop-off in rim protection for a guy who still has solid rim protection + can take that switch against all these marquee guards and stay sound.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 10:20 PM
I think Rudy is by the far the most impactful defender in the league. KL is your best one on one guy against almost anyone. Green brings a combination of skills other donít but Rudy makes a defense. Everyone gets to stay home when you drive on Utah. Heís just a different breed.


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I agree and he would take my vote.

I wish that people voted the same way for other awards such as MVP (and COTY). As I mentioned earlier, Casey probably wins MVP even though Stevens' coaching was probably more impactful even though Casey's team got a higher win total. Same with MVP, if someone argued Harden was more impactful over Lebron, at least they are using the right criteria. But if someone weighed team success heavily for MVP? Ew.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 10:21 PM
I agree and he would take my vote.

I wish that people voted the same way for other awards such as MVP (and COTY). As I mentioned earlier, Casey probably wins MVP even though Stevens' coaching was probably more impactful even though Casey's team got a higher win total. Same with MVP, if someone argued Harden was more impactful over Lebron, at least they are using the right criteria. But if someone weighed team success heavily for MVP? Ew.

You use both criteria. And Harden has him on both. Unless of course your criteria is total minutes played + the resulting totality of those baseline stats. But who am I kidding, nobody here would be that ridiculous...

Lionel20
04-10-2018, 10:27 PM
Team record is hardy the only reason Harden is the favorite candidate and acting as if that's the case is just flat out disrespectful. As I stated in another thread recently, Harden has the edge in scoring, AST%, PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM and pretty much all other advanced statistics.


Why is this significant?


First off, quit using total numbers. Literally NOBODY looks at total numbers when comparing per season statistics. That's not just antiquated, it's flat out ignorant, and any competent NBA could tell you that in a heartbeat.


No, you just can't make a total numbers argument for Harden.

So Rates is all that matters? Well, can I nominate Naz Mitrou-Long for MVP he has a plus/minus of 266.

It is about durability as well as efficiency. You can't impact the game if you're not on the floor. No one has been on the floor as much as LeBron -- 3015 minutes to be exact.



I'm sorry, but your logic is mind-numbingly stupid. Like Michael Bay movie level of stupid. The Rockets have a BETTER record without Paul than the Cavs have without Love, and somehow you're trying to justify that this is an obvious win for Lebron? How in the hell can you make that case? What are you drinking/smoking that allows you to look at that argument and come to that conclusion?


It's more poor comprehension skills on your part. My point was that when you review the games that Chris Paul was out, the Rocket win percentage is basically the same as last year. Minus Chris Paul, the Rockets have around the same record as the Cavaliers. Minus Kevin Love, the Cavaliers show no drop off whatsoever, because LeBron picks up the slack. At least try to understand my point before you make your counterargument, or you end up the one looking ignorant.



Again, I made this argument against Flashbolt in the other thread, but Lebron having inferior teammates and finishing with a substantially worse record does not make his case stronger than Harden's. If he had inferior teammates and finished maybe a handful of games behind the Rockets? Sure. But that's simply not the case here. Harden is playing for a team that will end up with one of the 20 best records in the history of the NBA, and Lebron's Cavs are fighting to get the 4 seed in an inferior conference.


The W/L differential between the Rockets/Cavs is more than explained in the comparison of James and Hardens supporting cast. I can show you my math if you like, but if the Cavs would've just traded JR Smith for Eric Gordon at the beginning of the season -- Cavs estimated record jumps to 56 - 26, Rockets fall to 60 - 22. And that's just one player trade. The Rockets are stacked bro.



According to 82games, PGs are averaging a 15.3 PER against Harden, while SGs are boasting a 16.7 PER. Meanwhile, SFs boast an 18.7 PER against Lebron and PFs average a 21.0 PER against him. I'm sorry, but you can't possibly make the case that Lebron's defense makes him a better candidate this season over Harden. In previous years? Absolutely. But Lebron has been an absolute sieve on that end, and his defensive problems have been a huge reason why the Cavs have struggled at times this season, as they're unable to rely on him to play otherworldly team defense like they have in the past.


I gave Opponent FG%, PF's, the personnel James and Harden play with on defense, and you respond with Holligers PER smh... Well, since you like that stat so much do you care to tell me who 82games ranks as the best player? They base their player rankings on PER.



Last time I checked, fouls aren't a barometer of quality defense. If we're going to make that argument, then how about the fact that Harden has Lebron beat in terms of steals?


Who cares? Literally your entire argument thus far has been "Lebron's team isn't as good as Harden, therefore he deserves the MVP." At what point are you going to actually look at their production and impact on the team to make that decision and stop looking at everything around them?


Just as you can't take things like DWS and DRtg at face value, you can't completely dismiss them either. As somebody who watched a lot of Rockets games, the guy has been pretty darn solid on the defensive end this season. With the new way they play defense, he's constantly being switched on the teams can attempt to take advantage of him, but they rarely do. He's giving up 0.8 points per possession in isos and post ups. Part of that is that he's a great post defender against bigs for a SG, and part of it is that when he's forced to guard players in isolation and give a ****, he's pretty damn tough to score on because of his size and quick hands.

Horrible transition defender? Absolutely. Mediocre help defender? Sure. But in 1 on 1 situations, he's hardly the worst defender on the team.


I don't completely dismiss the advanced defensive metrics, I just explained how it's mistakenly attributed shares of Love and Thompson's horrid defense to LeBron.



Total minutes is a ****ing joke. Stop it. Harden scored more points on essentially an identical TS% while boasting the higher AST%.


Is he? Yes. Has he played that way this season? No.


Seeding had nothing to do with it. They cared more about the fact that he averaged a triple double. You want a precedent? In the history of the NBA, a player has averaged 30+ points on a 65-win team three times. All three times, that player has won MVP. Harden is about to become No. 4.


What advanced stats? In this entire asinine post, the only advanced statistic you've used is TS%. You've completely ignored PER, WS/48, VORP, AST%, BPM, ORtg and DRtg, where Harden has an advantage across the board. If anyone looked at advanced numbers, in fact, this argument would be over in a second because Harden crushes Lebron this season. It's no contest.

Seriously, dude, you have no leg to stand on with this post.

How many players have finished a season with 2000 points, 700 rebounds, 700 assists? Oscar Robertson, Russell Westbrook, and LeBron James. James is shooting 54% from the field as well. His team is likely to win four more games than Westbrook's Thunder. James is playing better than Westbrook's 16-17 MVP season. The Cavs would likely be in the tanking race if it wasn't for James performance this year. Why give the MVP to Harden simply because they acquired Chris Paul?

I don't know what the writers are going to do. But LeBron James is the MVP this year.

Allphakenny1
04-10-2018, 10:30 PM
I think you misunderestood here but that's probably on me. When I say "best player", I'm referring strictly as who performed as the best player THAT season, not arbitrary player rankings.

So maybe to rephrase it "Who individually performed as the best player (which should disregard things like team performance, expectations, etc)"? And I would probably disagree with someone who would argue that Harden performed as the best player than Lebron this season.

Got it!

Raps18-19 Champ
04-10-2018, 10:33 PM
You use both criteria. And Harden has him on both. Unless of course your criteria is total minutes played + the resulting totality of those baseline stats. But who am I kidding, nobody here would be that ridiculous...

Yes but I don't agree with the weighing criteria. If we kept with the same criteria, guys out of the playoff race will never be considered fairly for MVP. I'm sure there are dozens of guys this decade alone are being voted All NBA first team but are behind guys on the 2nd and 3rd team in the MVP voting. I don't even think a guy like Cousins has been considered for MVP even though guys behind him got a few votes. I think All-NBA (And all NBA defense)better indicates the better players for a season as they consider players regardless of team record (since writers took over).

Demar's probably ending up top 5 in MVP race when there are probably at least 10 guys (don't quote me on this) who have had much more impact on their team than he has.

tredigs
04-10-2018, 11:19 PM
Yes but I don't agree with the weighing criteria. If we kept with the same criteria, guys out of the playoff race will never be considered fairly for MVP. I'm sure there are dozens of guys this decade alone are being voted All NBA first team but are behind guys on the 2nd and 3rd team in the MVP voting. I don't even think a guy like Cousins has been considered for MVP even though guys behind him got a few votes. I think All-NBA (And all NBA defense)better indicates the better players for a season as they consider players regardless of team record (since writers took over).

Demar's probably ending up top 5 in MVP race when there are probably at least 10 guys (don't quote me on this) who have had much more impact on their team than he has.
I understand what you're getting at, but has there been any MVP's who were not also All NBA 1st team in the modern era? Maybe 1 or 2? I can't think of any off the top of my head. Only Russell and Wilt back in the day. Personally I think I'm done with this debate and all that needs to be said has been said, but again, I believe Harden has grounds to stand on in every front concerning the MVP debate. And like Valade insinuated, if the players stats/records were switched, this isn't a debate anybody here would be trying to justify for Harden.

ewing
04-11-2018, 12:37 AM
Yeah, I think any team that runs enough actions that can get Rudy out on the perimeter early in the clock with a ball savvy guard (and they're are a lot now) can exploit him like this. When Curry's on the court against him, it's their go-to. Creates situations like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=havKN_lv72E


He's clearly one of the top defenders of the current generation, but in this age I'm more willing to take the drop-off in rim protection for a guy who still has solid rim protection + can take that switch against all these marquee guards and stay sound.

Even play Curry eventually spins him around and make Rudy look silly but not until he took away the 3 twice and he is had any help with his length he would had a chance to get back in the play not bad for a guy is that good in the paint. Like I said Iíd have to see him in the playoffs against teams that really stretches the floor. Over 82 games I think he is the best but a team like GS might make him useless in the playoffs


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mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 09:03 AM
No, you just can't make a total numbers argument for Harden.
Plus go and find me a legitimate argument where someone uses total statistics instead of averages to justify an MVP candidate. I'll wait...


So Rates is all that matters? Well, can I nominate Naz Mitrou-Long for MVP he has a plus/minus of 266.
You're using a single player and a single number. I gave you essentially every significant advanced statistic used to measure the productivity of NBA players, and Harden beats Lebron is nearly every single one.


It is about durability as well as efficiency. You can't impact the game if you're not on the floor. No one has been on the floor as much as LeBron -- 3015 minutes to be exact.
Lebron won an an MVP with 76 games. Is 73 that different? And frankly, the only reason Lebron has played a full season is because he and the Cavs sucked so much earlier in the season and the East was better. He certainly would have rested games like in previous season if he'd had the ability to do so.


It's more poor comprehension skills on your part. My point was that when you review the games that Chris Paul was out, the Rocket win percentage is basically the same as last year. Minus Chris Paul, the Rockets have around the same record as the Cavaliers. Minus Kevin Love, the Cavaliers show no drop off whatsoever, because LeBron picks up the slack. At least try to understand my point before you make your counterargument, or you end up the one looking ignorant.

No, I "comprehended" your weak *** argument. It was just a really ill-conceived one. Trying to compare their winning percentage to last year's team instead of the Cavs' winning percentage without Love (which makes way more sense) is a prime example of the kind of mental gymnastics I'm seeing posters on PSD do to try and justify Lebron over Harden in this MVP race.


The W/L differential between the Rockets/Cavs is more than explained in the comparison of James and Hardens supporting cast. I can show you my math if you like, but if the Cavs would've just traded JR Smith for Eric Gordon at the beginning of the season -- Cavs estimated record jumps to 56 - 26, Rockets fall to 60 - 22. And that's just one player trade. The Rockets are stacked bro.

And, again, last time I checked, the sole barometer by which the MVP was judged wasn't "How good are your teammates?" As I stated in another thread recently, if that were the case, superstars can just sign with craptastic teams every year, go .500 and win the MVP.

Lebron's teammates are worse, and that should certainly be taken into account. But that's a very small piece of the MVP puzzle. Harden's numbers are better, and his team is 15 games better. That matters. And, frankly, a player's individual production and team success should matter WAY more than how good his teammates are in an MVP conversation.


I gave Opponent FG%, PF's, the personnel James and Harden play with on defense, and you respond with Holligers PER smh... Well, since you like that stat so much do you care to tell me who 82games ranks as the best player? They base their player rankings on PER.
I'm aware PER is an imperfect stat. I never said it was perfect, but it's a good number to show how productive opposing offensive players have been against those guys this season. Neither guy has been good defensively this year. And you don't have a strong case for Lebron for MVP this season based on his abysmal defensive performance. Literally nobody else is arguing that.


How many players have finished a season with 2000 points, 700 rebounds, 700 assists? Oscar Robertson, Russell Westbrook, and LeBron James. James is shooting 54% from the field as well. His team is likely to win four more games than Westbrook's Thunder. James is playing better than Westbrook's 16-17 MVP season. The Cavs would likely be in the tanking race if it wasn't for James performance this year.
Why do you keep bringing up Westbrook's MVP season? We're not comparing James to Westbrook last year to determine if he deserves to be MVP this year. If we were comparing the two, I ALSO would give it to James. But Westbrook's 2016-17 season should have almost no bearing on this conversation. It's 17-18 Lebron vs. 17-18 Harden, and 17-18 Harden has been better.

Also, if you want a historical statement for Harden or Lebron, how about this? In the history of the NBA, only two players have averaged at least 30 points and 8 assists with a 61% TS%? Michael Jordan in 88-89 and James Harden in 17-18. Also, as I previously stated, only four players in NBA history have averaged 30 points per game and played for a team that won 65+ games. Harden is one, and the other three all won MVP.


Why give the MVP to Harden simply because they acquired Chris Paul?
This statement is beyond absurd. Just stop it. Harden was an MVP runner up twice and very easily could have won it last year if voters weren't idiots. Also, Paul missed nearly a third of the season. And Harden's numbers have been ever better this last year. You're just grasping at straws with this...


I don't know what the writers are going to do. But LeBron James is the MVP this year.
I do know what the writers are going to do. Harden is going to win by a comfortable margin. And Harden will be the MVP this year. You can fight this kicking and screaming all you want, clinging to weak arguments with no substance and grasping for stats barely on the fringe of being useful, or you can just accept that Harden has been the better player this year and is more deserving of the award.

The choice is yours, but feel free to join me on the right side of history whenever you're ready. ;)

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 09:04 AM
I'm kinda late to the party. I can provide an explanation if you really want it but I wouldn't be saying anything that probably has not been said in this thread (I'll probably just copy and paste to save time) and everything I'll probably say has already been argued against.

Translation: "I have no legitimate argument for this. I just don't want Harden to win it."

Raps18-19 Champ
04-11-2018, 09:26 AM
Translation: "I have no legitimate argument for this. I just don't want Harden to win it."

:rolleyes:

Yea, thats exactly what that means. Theres hundreds of articles written daily about this same topic between Harden and James. ESPN (who you linked for a different article) just yesterday had an article showimg number of people who SHOULD and who WILL win MVP with a discrepancy.

Is it still even worth discussing at this point when i know your tone will be degrading again? Yake the emotion out of it next time and stop being a dick by looking down on people just because they dont share your views.

Jamiecballer
04-11-2018, 09:53 AM
Call me old fashioned but the obvious case against LeBron for MVP is the complete apathy he showed over several weeks while the ship was going down. Admittedly if you showed me numbers only and said this is Lebrons season I would have no trouble handing him a trophy. But I would never ever feel comfortable handing an MVP to someone who has been at their best and worst during the same season.

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IKnowHoops
04-11-2018, 11:27 AM
Individuals carry teams in the NBA, whereas they don't in MLB. You can't be MVP if you didn't carry your team to particular heights.

You're really out of your depth when you're not talking about individual baseball statistics.

These are the kind of posts that keep me reading through a thread lololololol

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 12:28 PM
:rolleyes:

Yea, thats exactly what that means. Theres hundreds of articles written daily about this same topic between Harden and James. ESPN (who you linked for a different article) just yesterday had an article showimg number of people who SHOULD and who WILL win MVP with a discrepancy.

Is it still even worth discussing at this point when i know your tone will be degrading again? Yake the emotion out of it next time and stop being a dick by looking down on people just because they dont share your views.

Yup. He's unbearable. We should just create a forum and let him debate himself because that's clearly the only answer he'll accept. That's why I asked him to stop quoting me. It's the same insults and degrading every response.

"I'm right, you're wrong. No other way."

"In other words, you're wrong."

"I wouldn't have to correct you if you weren't making terrible statements."

My God, just shut up already.

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 02:40 PM
:rolleyes:

Yea, thats exactly what that means. Theres hundreds of articles written daily about this same topic between Harden and James. ESPN (who you linked for a different article) just yesterday had an article showimg number of people who SHOULD and who WILL win MVP with a discrepancy.
And that logic is totally flawed. There isn no "Player X is clearly MVP, but Player Y SHOULD win." It makes no sense. You either do or don't think a guy should win MVP. Also, you didn't even take the time to make a legitimate argument for him. You want to discuss it? Let's discuss it.


Is it still even worth discussing at this point when i know your tone will be degrading again? Yake the emotion out of it next time and stop being a dick by looking down on people just because they dont share your views.
It's impossible to separate emotion from sports. If we could, nobody would watch sports, because what would be the point?

You want to know why I'm upset? I believe said it earlier in this thread, but if you were to swap Lebron and Harden and put Harden in Cleveland with Lebron's numbers and team record and put Lebron in Houston with Harden's numbers and team record, there wouldn't be a damn poster on PSD arguing that Harden "should" win MVP.

As long as Harden's been in Houston, I have endured some true Harden hate, both in the media and on PSD. Was some of it deserved? Absolutely. The guy completely no-showed in two key elimination games, with last year's Game 6 against the Spurs being especially egregious, and he's had some other below average playoff series and a few seasons of porous defense. But a lot of it (I'd argue most of it) hasn't been deserved.

Despite having three solid MVP-worthy seasons in the last three years and being the obvious MVP candidate by pretty much any barometer by which MVP is judged, there are still those who look for excuses not to give the guy his due. It's either "Harden will win it, but Lebron SHOULD win it" or "Harden has had the better season, but Lebron is clearly still the better player, so doesn't that make him more valuable?"

There have been a few legitimate points made. Should Chris Paul joining the team have a slight impact on this MVP candidacy? Sure, maybe a little bit. Does Harden's superior teammates contribute to his team's superior record? Sure, a little bit of that can be taken into account, too. And Lebron has played better than Harden in the last month, I'll admit. But how are those three points alone a legitimate argument for Lebron over Harden when literally everything else points in the Beard's favor? Then you have posts like the one from the OP in this thread that are just grasping at straws, looking for any possible statistical edge they can (regardless of whether or not they're legitimate) to make the case for Lebron while completely overlooking the massive edge Harden has in every major advanced statistical barometer.

I'm just sick of it. I can only be calm and logical for so long before I can not longer take the complete lack of respect my favorite player and favorite team get. It drives me crazy.

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 02:41 PM
Yup. He's unbearable. We should just create a forum and let him debate himself because that's clearly the only answer he'll accept. That's why I asked him to stop quoting me. It's the same insults and degrading every response.

"I'm right, you're wrong. No other way."

"In other words, you're wrong."

"I wouldn't have to correct you if you weren't making terrible statements."

My God, just shut up already.

Will do. As soon as you admit that you're wrong and your take on this is terrible. :cool:

Vee-Rex
04-11-2018, 03:09 PM
And that logic is totally flawed. There isn no "Player X is clearly MVP, but Player Y SHOULD win." It makes no sense. You either do or don't think a guy should win MVP. Also, you didn't even take the time to make a legitimate argument for him. You want to discuss it? Let's discuss it.


It's impossible to separate emotion from sports. If we could, nobody would watch sports, because what would be the point?

You want to know why I'm upset? I believe said it earlier in this thread, but if you were to swap Lebron and Harden and put Harden in Cleveland with Lebron's numbers and team record and put Lebron in Houston with Harden's numbers and team record, there wouldn't be a damn poster on PSD arguing that Harden "should" win MVP.


If Harden was universally regarded as "the best player in the world", then there would absolutely be people arguing that Harden "should" win in this scenario.

FWIW, I'm not advocating for LeBron - I think Harden should and will win it. But just because people pick LeBron doesn't mean it's because they have some grudge/angst towards Harden or think Harden is undeserving of it.



As long as Harden's been in Houston, I have endured some true Harden hate, both in the media and on PSD. Was some of it deserved? Absolutely. The guy completely no-showed in two key elimination games, with last year's Game 6 against the Spurs being especially egregious, and he's had some other below average playoff series and a few seasons of porous defense. But a lot of it (I'd argue most of it) hasn't been deserved.


It sucks - but that's just how it goes. Ask other fans - they're constantly defending their guys against unwarranted hate. Try being a Cavs fan and watching year-in and year-out all the unnecessary hate/drama thrown at LeBron, Love, and other players. Especially on LeBron, even dating back to his first stint in Cleveland. When a player is good enough to surpass Kobe (good god the retaliation from some Lakers fans has been eternal) and challenge MJ for best ever, he's easily one of the most hated players in all of basketball history, only eclipsed the past two years by KD and his infamous decision.

Don't take it personally.

Also, separate the "we think LeBron is MVP" people from the ones who incessantly hate on Harden. Some might be the same, but not all are.

That's just my take on this.

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 03:23 PM
If Harden was universally regarded as "the best player in the world", then there would absolutely be people arguing that Harden "should" win in this scenario.

FWIW, I'm not advocating for LeBron - I think Harden should and will win it. But just because people pick LeBron doesn't mean it's because they have some grudge/angst towards Harden or think Harden is undeserving of it.



It sucks - but that's just how it goes. Ask other fans - they're constantly defending their guys against unwarranted hate. Try being a Cavs fan and watching year-in and year-out all the unnecessary hate/drama thrown at LeBron, Love, and other players. Especially on LeBron, even dating back to his first stint in Cleveland. When a player is good enough to surpass Kobe (good god the retaliation from some Lakers fans has been eternal) and challenge MJ for best ever, he's easily one of the most hated players in all of basketball history, only eclipsed the past two years by KD and his infamous decision.

Don't take it personally.

Also, separate the "we think LeBron is MVP" people from the ones who incessantly hate on Harden. Some might be the same, but not all are.

That's just my take on this.

At this point, though, the Lebron haters are in the minority. The vast majority of people on PSD (myself include) praise Lebron and recognize him as one of the greatest to ever play the game. There's probably no more than a handful of posters who wouldn't rank him among the five greatest of all-time.

On the flip side, I still get the sense that the pro-Harden crowd is still vastly in the minority. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone rip on Harden's defense in a totally unwarranted situation, regardless of how well or poorly he's playing on that end of the floor... Well, you get the point.

I remember what it was like for Lebron fans back before he won that first title in Miami (and really, up until his first title in Cleveland). Once he left Cleveland for Miami, the guy was almost universally hated here. And it feels like that pretty much all the time as a Harden fan. Every accomplishment seems to warrant an asterisk from somebody. Every little mistake is an excuse for a joke...

And as a Harden fan, I get it, and I rarely feel the need to lash out. But after this season, after all he's accomplished and this monster year he and the Rockets have had, I'm kinda done. I'm sick of the asterisks and the excuses and the unwarranted hate.

Vee-Rex
04-11-2018, 03:26 PM
At this point, though, the Lebron haters are in the minority. The vast majority of people on PSD (myself include) praise Lebron and recognize him as one of the greatest to ever play the game. There's probably no more than a handful of posters who wouldn't rank him among the five greatest of all-time.

On the flip side, I still get the sense that the pro-Harden crowd is still vastly in the minority. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone rip on Harden's defense in a totally unwarranted situation, regardless of how well or poorly he's playing on that end of the floor... Well, you get the point.

I remember what it was like for Lebron fans back before he won that first title in Miami (and really, up until his first title in Cleveland). Once he left Cleveland for Miami, the guy was almost universally hated here. And it feels like that pretty much all the time as a Harden fan. Every accomplishment seems to warrant an asterisk from somebody. Every little mistake is an excuse for a joke...

And as a Harden fan, I get it, and I rarely feel the need to lash out. But after this season, after all he's accomplished and this monster year he and the Rockets have had, I'm kinda done. I'm sick of the asterisks and the excuses and the unwarranted hate.

Oh it'll get worse even if he wins a championship.

Still, it'll all be worth it!

valade16
04-11-2018, 03:49 PM
This debate seems to come down to people refusing to believe there's a difference between the best player and the player who played the best. There is.

If LeBron James scores 10 points on 5/19 FGs he is still the best player but he did not play the best in that game. Now take that same concept and apply it to the entire season. You can be the best player and not play the best in the same way you can be the best team yet lose a playoff series.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-11-2018, 04:36 PM
And that logic is totally flawed. There isn no "Player X is clearly MVP, but Player Y SHOULD win." It makes no sense. You either do or don't think a guy should win MVP. Also, you didn't even take the time to make a legitimate argument for him. You want to discuss it? Let's discuss it.

How is that a flawed logic?

All that means is that people think someome should win based on a certain set of criteria but know the majority will vote on different set of criteria.

Its like saying Ken Griffey Jr SHOULD be a unanomous HOF but based on flawed standards used by voters, he wont be voted unanimous.

Theres still guus out there who vote pitchers Cy Young award based on wins.


It's impossible to separate emotion from sports. If we could, nobody would watch sports, because what would be the point?

You want to know why I'm upset? I believe said it earlier in this thread, but if you were to swap Lebron and Harden and put Harden in Cleveland with Lebron's numbers and team record and put Lebron in Houston with Harden's numbers and team record, there wouldn't be a damn poster on PSD arguing that Harden "should" win MVP.

As long as Harden's been in Houston, I have endured some true Harden hate, both in the media and on PSD. Was some of it deserved? Absolutely. The guy completely no-showed in two key elimination games, with last year's Game 6 against the Spurs being especially egregious, and he's had some other below average playoff series and a few seasons of porous defense. But a lot of it (I'd argue most of it) hasn't been deserved.

Despite having three solid MVP-worthy seasons in the last three years and being the obvious MVP candidate by pretty much any barometer by which MVP is judged, there are still those who look for excuses not to give the guy his due. It's either "Harden will win it, but Lebron SHOULD win it" or "Harden has had the better season, but Lebron is clearly still the better player, so doesn't that make him more valuable?"

There have been a few legitimate points made. Should Chris Paul joining the team have a slight impact on this MVP candidacy? Sure, maybe a little bit. Does Harden's superior teammates contribute to his team's superior record? Sure, a little bit of that can be taken into account, too. And Lebron has played better than Harden in the last month, I'll admit. But how are those three points alone a legitimate argument for Lebron over Harden when literally everything else points in the Beard's favor? Then you have posts like the one from the OP in this thread that are just grasping at straws, looking for any possible statistical edge they can (regardless of whether or not they're legitimate) to make the case for Lebron while completely overlooking the massive edge Harden has in every major advanced statistical barometer.

I'm just sick of it. I can only be calm and logical for so long before I can not longer take the complete lack of respect my favorite player and favorite team get. It drives me crazy.

And I have no interest in discussing if you are going to get overly emotional. The purpose of to debaye is to influence the other person. We are at the point where you already disagree before i even say it and to put a cherry on top, we (and everyone else here) both know we're 1 post away from you trashing the next "Anti Harden" post while talking about digging their grandma's grave and banging her corpse.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:16 PM
Will do. As soon as you admit that you're wrong and your take on this is terrible. :cool:

No, I won't admit I'm wrong because I have an opinion. You're just being intolerable and forcing your logic down into everyone's throat. Go away and relax for a day or two. Not everyone is subscribed to the Houston Rockets cult or whatever it is you seem to be a part of. We're all basketball fans here. Some of us just see that LeBron has been more valuable to his team. He's a freaking top five and possibly, 2nd GOAT having one of his best seasons but you're trying to convince us that it's out of the realm for him to get consideration for MVP? Seriously, just stop man. Okay, Harden should and likely wins MVP. That doesn't mean everyone here isn't entitled to an opinion.

Lionel20
04-11-2018, 06:26 PM
Plus go and find me a legitimate argument where someone uses total statistics instead of averages to justify an MVP candidate. I'll wait...


You're using a single player and a single number. I gave you essentially every significant advanced statistic used to measure the productivity of NBA players, and Harden beats Lebron is nearly every single one.


All of the player metrics that want the evaluate a players performance for a single season or career eg ESPN RPM Wins, Win Shares, utilize "total numbers". In fact "total numbers" are usually the basis for the most popular advanced metrics.



Lebron won an an MVP with 76 games. Is 73 that different? And frankly, the only reason Lebron has played a full season is because he and the Cavs sucked so much earlier in the season and the East was better. He certainly would have rested games like in previous season if he'd had the ability to do so.


^
Ok, here's where I really want to make my point.

LeBron did play 2,966 minutes in '09-10. James had a much better season that Durant -- the runner up -- that year.

If Harden were to win the MVP this year, he would be the only player outside of Bill Walton '88 (71%), Bob Cousy '57 (89%), and Allen Iverson '01 (87%) to win the MVP while playing less than 90% of the regular season schedule in the over 63 years of the award. Walton and Cousy are pre-1980 exceptions under the old voting rules where the players, instead of the sportwriters decided the MVP.

Iverson is comparable. Iverson in 2001 however, played 42 mpg, or 395 more minutes than '18 Harden. In fact no player in modern times has won the award playing as little of minutes as Harden, currently at 2551 total minutes. Steve Nash beat out Shaq by just 34 points in 2006, playing just 2572 minutes, but Shaq played just 73 games/2492 minutes. Usually teams need their best players on the floor for longer periods of time to compete. If the Rockets can win 66 games at a +8.7 scoring margin without Harden on the floor for over 35% of the time, then how valuable is he? It's the reason Nash won in 2006, Shaq played alongside Dwyane Wade -- he was just as dominant. Iverson won in 2001, Shaq played alongside a stellar Kobe Bryant season in 2001, Duncan played with David Robinson, who did Iverson have in the eyes of the media?

Well, Harden has Chris Paul -- he's likely going to get a good bit of top 5 MVP votes. If that's the case then post-1980 only Jordan in '96 and Moses Malone '83 won the MVP with a teammate in the top 5 -- Jordan and Malone played 82 games/3091 minutes and 78 games/2925 minutes respectively.



No, I "comprehended" your weak *** argument. It was just a really ill-conceived one. Trying to compare their winning percentage to last year's team instead of the Cavs' winning percentage without Love (which makes way more sense) is a prime example of the kind of mental gymnastics I'm seeing posters on PSD do to try and justify Lebron over Harden in this MVP race.


And, again, last time I checked, the sole barometer by which the MVP was judged wasn't "How good are your teammates?" As I stated in another thread recently, if that were the case, superstars can just sign with craptastic teams every year, go .500 and win the MVP.

Lebron's teammates are worse, and that should certainly be taken into account. But that's a very small piece of the MVP puzzle. Harden's numbers are better, and his team is 15 games better. That matters. And, frankly, a player's individual production and team success should matter WAY more than how good his teammates are in an MVP conversation.


I disagree, Harden's numbers are not better than James numbers this season, especially when you factor in that James played 9 or 10 more games.


I'm aware PER is an imperfect stat. I never said it was perfect, but it's a good number to show how productive opposing offensive players have been against those guys this season. Neither guy has been good defensively this year. And you don't have a strong case for Lebron for MVP this season based on his abysmal defensive performance. Literally nobody else is arguing that.


Defense is tough to quantify. This has been one of James' worst defensive performances in his career. That said, he's still -- from what I gather -- an above average defender. Harden is finishing his best defensive performance in his career. That said, he's still a below average defender.



Why do you keep bringing up Westbrook's MVP season? We're not comparing James to Westbrook last year to determine if he deserves to be MVP this year. If we were comparing the two, I ALSO would give it to James. But Westbrook's 2016-17 season should have almost no bearing on this conversation. It's 17-18 Lebron vs. 17-18 Harden, and 17-18 Harden has been better.

Also, if you want a historical statement for Harden or Lebron, how about this? In the history of the NBA, only two players have averaged at least 30 points and 8 assists with a 61% TS%? Michael Jordan in 88-89 and James Harden in 17-18. Also, as I previously stated, only four players in NBA history have averaged 30 points per game and played for a team that won 65+ games. Harden is one, and the other three all won MVP.


This statement is beyond absurd. Just stop it. Harden was an MVP runner up twice and very easily could have won it last year if voters weren't idiots. Also, Paul missed nearly a third of the season. And Harden's numbers have been ever better this last year. You're just grasping at straws with this...


I do know what the writers are going to do. Harden is going to win by a comfortable margin. And Harden will be the MVP this year. You can fight this kicking and screaming all you want, clinging to weak arguments with no substance and grasping for stats barely on the fringe of being useful, or you can just accept that Harden has been the better player this year and is more deserving of the award.

The choice is yours, but feel free to join me on the right side of history whenever you're ready. ;)

You may be right with Harden winning it. I definitely agree that he deserved it more than Westbrook last year. But if they're going to give it to Westbrook last year, with the Thunder winning just 47 games, it's no question to me that James should win it this year. He has better individual numbers than Harden this year and last, and better numbers than Westbrook's MVP season -- Westbrook missed over 1100 shots and turned it over well over 400 times.

James again, has over 2200 pts, 750 assists, and 700 rebounds. The Cavs have won over 60% of their games with 18 different starting lineups -- the constant is LeBron James. The Cavs went 0-8 last year without James, and that was with Kyrie Irving in most of those games. The team surrounding James is considerably worst this year minus Kyrie. Kevin Love has missed 20 games for the 2nd consecutive year. They've won just as many games without Kyrie and 18 different lineup changes because James elevated his game. If they were 0-8 last year without LeBron, I doubt they'd win 20 games if James were out for the season this year.

Meanwhile the Rockets don't even need Harden on the floor over 60% of the time to obliterate opponents. The Rockets went 6-3 this season without Harden with a +80 point differential.

Eric Gordon should be sixth man of the year again, before you shout out Lou Williams .. go study what Gordon has been doing on the defensive end.

Clint Capela is a defensive player of the year candidate.

Chris Paul is likely to finish top 5 in the MVP voting.

The Rockets role players are the best in the NBA this season.

After you consider all this information. Honestly, you tell me who is more valuable, LeBron James or James Harden? It's not that close.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:30 PM
All of the player metrics that want the evaluate a players performance for a single season or career eg ESPN RPM Wins, Win Shares, utilize "total numbers". In fact "total numbers" are usually the basis for the most popular advanced metrics.



^
Ok, here's where I really want to make my point.

LeBron did play 2,966 minutes in '09-10. James had a much better season that Durant -- the runner up -- that year.

If Harden were to win the MVP this year, he would be the only player outside of Bill Walton '88 (71%), Bob Cousy '57 (89%), and Allen Iverson '01 (87%) to win the MVP while playing less than 90% of the regular season schedule in the over 63 years of the award. Walton and Cousy are pre-1980 exceptions under the old voting rules where the players, instead of the sportwriters decided the MVP.

Iverson is comparable. Iverson in 2001 however, played 42 mpg, or 395 more minutes than '18 Harden. In fact no player in modern times has won the award playing as little of minutes as Harden, currently at 2551 total minutes. Steve Nash beat out Shaq by just 34 points in 2006, playing just 2572 minutes, but Shaq played just 73 games/2492 minutes. Usually teams need their best players on the floor for longer periods of time to compete. If the Rockets can win 66 games at a +8.7 scoring margin without Harden on the floor for over 35% of the time, then how valuable is he? It's the reason Nash won in 2006, Shaq played alongside Dwyane Wade -- he was just as dominant. Iverson won in 2001, Shaq played alongside a stellar Kobe Bryant season in 2001, Duncan played with David Robinson, who did Iverson have in the eyes of the media?

Well, Harden has Chris Paul -- he's likely going to get a good bit of top 5 MVP votes. If that's the case then post-1980 only Jordan in '96 and Moses Malone '83 won the MVP with a teammate in the top 5 -- Jordan and Malone played 82 games/3091 minutes and 78 games/2925 minutes respectively.



I disagree, Harden's numbers are not better than James numbers this season, especially when you factor in that James played 9 or 10 more games.


Defense is tough to quantify. This has been one of James' worst defensive performances in his career. That said, he's still -- from what I gather -- an above average defender. Harden is finishing his best defensive performance in his career. That said, he's still a below average defender.



You may be right with Harden winning it. I definitely agree that he deserved it more than Westbrook last year. But if they're going to give it to Westbrook last year, with the Thunder winning just 47 games, it's no question to me that James should win it this year. He has better individual numbers than Harden this year and last, and better numbers than Westbrook's MVP season -- Westbrook missed over 1100 shots and turned it over well over 400 times.

James again, has over 2200 pts, 750 assists, and 700 rebounds. The Cavs have won over 60% of their games with 18 different starting lineups -- the constant is LeBron James. The Cavs went 0-8 last year without James, and that was with Kyrie Irving in most of those games. The team surrounding James is considerably worst this year minus Kyrie. Kevin Love has missed 20 games for the 2nd consecutive year. They've won just as many games without Kyrie and 18 different lineup changes because James elevated his game. If they were 0-8 last year without LeBron, I doubt they'd win 20 games if James were out for the season this year.

Meanwhile the Rockets don't even need Harden on the floor over 60% of the time to obliterate opponents. The Rockets went 6-3 this season without Harden with a +80 point differential.

Eric Gordon should be sixth man of the year again, before you shout out Lou Williams .. go study what Gordon has been doing on the defensive end.

Clint Capela is a defensive player of the year candidate.

Chris Paul is likely to finish top 5 in the MVP voting.

The Rockets role players are the best in the NBA this season.

After you consider all this information. Honestly, you tell me who is more valuable, LeBron James or James Harden? It's not that close.

I wonder if the Cavs win games via 80 point differential without LeBron. Oh, and the third best player on the Cavs is Jeff Green.

tredigs
04-11-2018, 06:36 PM
I wonder if the Cavs win games via 80 point differential without LeBron. Oh, and the third best player on the Cavs is Jeff Green.

And last but not least... they're a 4 seed. This would feel like a much more relevant take if they were anywhere close to the Rockets record. Or the Raptors, for that matter.

Saddletramp
04-11-2018, 06:37 PM
"I have an opinion on this year's MVP race."
All right, let's discuss this. Here's some facts.
"Stop being a total jerk! You're hurting my feelings! Stop counterposting my posts on an online debate forum! I have a right to my opinion but you don't have the right to argue against it!"



God damn, people.

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 06:39 PM
How is that a flawed logic?

All that means is that people think someome should win based on a certain set of criteria but know the majority will vote on different set of criteria.

Its like saying Ken Griffey Jr SHOULD be a unanomous HOF but based on flawed standards used by voters, he wont be voted unanimous.

Theres still guus out there who vote pitchers Cy Young award based on wins.
So, I see your point here. But I think this is a little different then the takes I'm seeing from specific PSD posters (namely Flashbolt) who suggest that Harden deserves to win, but that he wouldn't personally vote for Harden. That's totally contradictory to me.

But, yeah, I get the whole "I think this person will win, but I'd personally vote for someone else" conversation.


And I have no interest in discussing if you are going to get overly emotional.
OK, but nobody's forcing you to respond to me. And if you know I'm going to get emotional over my favorite player and my favorite team, I can't force you to debate. That's OK. :shrug:


The purpose of to debaye is to influence the other person.
In a perfect world? Absolutely. But this is PSD.


We are at the point where you already disagree before i even say it and to put a cherry on top, we (and everyone else here) both know we're 1 post away from you trashing the next "Anti Harden" post while talking about digging their grandma's grave and banging her corpse.
The thing is that I don't disagree with some of the points that some posters have made. Paul coming to Houston, Harden's quality teammates and his somewhat lackluster play in March/April should have a small impact on Harden's candidacy. I'm not debating that. I just don't think those three factors alone come close to derailing a guy who's statistically having a superior season to everyone else in the league and who plays on the best team in the league.

If we look at the history of the award, the two greatest factors have always been:
1. Who has the best numbers?
2. How good is his team?

Harden kills it in both categories. So those other factors, for me, are totally negligible by comparison. People can certainly bring those points up, but how can you possibly justify them being enough to derail an exemplary MVP season? I just don't see the justification for it at all.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:41 PM
"I have an opinion on this year's MVP race."
All right, let's discuss this. Here's some facts.
"Stop being a total jerk! You're hurting my feelings! Stop counterposting my posts on an online debate forum! I have a right to my opinion but you don't have the right to argue against it!"



God damn, people.

That's not the point. It's the part where you guys ignore context in evaluating the teams - in which both you and MTB have acknowledged that Harden has the better team. But hey, if you think a Raptors fan is upset because LeBron isn't winning MVP, go for it. We're all entitled to our opinion but MBT forcing his "absolute" answer to the rest defeats the purpose of wanting to discuss with him. It's not like we're comparing LeBron to Kobe in which LeBron is clearly the better player. Harden is not "clearly" having a better season. His team is and Harden is the primary beneficiary of that and vice-versa. How many games have the Rockets won where Harden has a poor game? I can't remember LeBron having poor games and his team still pulling wins out.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:42 PM
So, I see your point here. But I think this is a little different then the takes I'm seeing from specific PSD posters (namely Flashbolt) who suggest that Harden deserves to win, but that he wouldn't personally vote for Harden. That's totally contradictory to me.

But, yeah, I get the whole "I think this person will win, but I'd personally vote for someone else" conversation.


OK, but nobody's forcing you to respond to me. And if you know I'm going to get emotional over my favorite player and my favorite team, I can't force you to debate. That's OK. :shrug:


In a perfect world? Absolutely. But this is PSD.


The thing is that I don't disagree with some of the points that some posters have made. Paul coming to Houston, Harden's quality teammates and his somewhat lackluster play in March/April should have a small impact on Harden's candidacy. I'm not debating that. I just don't think those three factors alone come close to derailing a guy who's statistically having a superior season to everyone else in the league and who plays on the best team in the league.

If we look at the history of the award, the two greatest factors have always been:
1. Who has the best numbers?
2. How good is his team?

Harden kills it in both categories. So those other factors, for me, are totally negligible by comparison. People can certainly bring those points up, but how can you possibly justify them being enough to derail an exemplary MVP season? I just don't see the justification for it at all.

How is it contradictory?

"Warriors should win the NBA Championship but Houston can beat them."

Is that contradictory to you? No, because it isn't. You just read what you want to see.

Just like when I say, Harden should win the NBA MVP but I would vote for LeBron."

There's nothing contradictory about it.

europagnpilgrim
04-11-2018, 06:54 PM
Harden will win the award, the media has given it away like they did last year and previous years when saying it over and over on a daily basis

Harden is in a tougher overall conference with a better w-l record, both are going to have the stats to back up whatever they are playing for, Harden has been on a 6 yr stretch while Bron has doubled that plus some

the thing is once people realize that Rockets were 5 games back at one point this season and are going to win the West best record by like 7-8games, that's a 12-13 increase in total, crazy, Harden is mvp, especially after hearing all the backlash after the cp3 deal and how non basketball players were saying it wasn't going to work and they even had a few actual former nba players agree publicly but probably thought diff. privately

Lebron or Harden could be going for a 3rd mvp in the past 4 yrs, Curry deserved his one for sure, the other was a toss up, Westbrook didn't win enough but he shafted Leonard/Harden last year with his triple double feat, actually I am glad Westbrook won the mvp because his motor/tenacity/attack mode reminds me of Iverson

europagnpilgrim
04-11-2018, 07:00 PM
How is it contradictory?

"Warriors should win the NBA Championship but Houston can beat them."

Is that contradictory to you? No, because it isn't. You just read what you want to see.

Just like when I say, Harden should win the NBA MVP but I would vote for LeBron."

There's nothing contradictory about it.

you are just nut hugging at this point

if harden should win the nba mvp then you should vote for him if that's how you feel, you don't owe bron money do you? then I would say make that political vote count, but this is just purely eye test criteria on what a mvp is, like I said in other posts both could have 3 mvps past 4 seasons, Harden could have won in 15' or James, Harden last and this year, same as James

but I wouldn't have voted for Davis last year, neither this year and he is way more worthy of getting more votes because to me his is a mvp candidate based on pure ability/numbers, but the thing is his team doesn't ''win enough'' games

Harden has the best record / best player on team, same as how Curry / Nash and others have won it prior, it will be the same, Bron is just like the player number he wears, Jordan could have won it every year but it just doesn't work out like that

you are not being contradictory, just petty, but its your free will to be what you want so I respect that

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 07:36 PM
All of the player metrics that want the evaluate a players performance for a single season or career eg ESPN RPM Wins, Win Shares, utilize "total numbers". In fact "total numbers" are usually the basis for the most popular advanced metrics.
And despite that, Harden still leads the league in a cumulative statistic like win shares.


LeBron did play 2,966 minutes in '09-10. James had a much better season that Durant -- the runner up -- that year.
He also played 76 games in 2012-13. And if we're going to argue that he was much better than Durant, I'd argue that Harden has been much better than Lebron.


If Harden were to win the MVP this year, he would be the only player outside of Bill Walton '88 (71%), Bob Cousy '57 (89%), and Allen Iverson '01 (87%) to win the MVP while playing less than 90% of the regular season schedule in the over 63 years of the award. Walton and Cousy are pre-1980 exceptions under the old voting rules where the players, instead of the sportwriters decided the MVP.
This is actually a fair point. But at what point do you factor in the two games where Harden got rest because his team was so far ahead of the rest of the league that he could afford it? If we factor in those two games, he'd be sitting at 75 games, only one less than Lebron's 09-10 and 12-13 years and the same number as Nash in 04-05.


Iverson is comparable. Iverson in 2001 however, played 42 mpg, or 395 more minutes than '18 Harden. In fact no player in modern times has won the award playing as little of minutes as Harden, currently at 2551 total minutes. Steve Nash beat out Shaq by just 34 points in 2006, playing just 2572 minutes, but Shaq played just 73 games/2492 minutes. Usually teams need their best players on the floor for longer periods of time to compete.
But it's a different league, chief. You're trying to use a blanket statement for something that isn't nearly as relevant today as it was as little as 10 years ago. Guys get rest today and they don't play a ton of minutes. A few months ago, I was looking at the number of players who played 35+ minutes in the league this season versus 10-15 years ago, and the difference is pretty staggering.

You can see this in MVPs of the last few seasons. Curry and Westbrook won the last three MVPs playing fewer than 35 minutes per game. In fact, in total, Harden will probably come up fewer than 50 total minutes from Curry's total minutes of 2,613 in the 2014-15 season, a year in which he posted inferior numbers to Harden.


If the Rockets can win 66 games at a +8.7 scoring margin without Harden on the floor for over 35% of the time, then how valuable is he? It's the reason Nash won in 2006, Shaq played alongside Dwyane Wade -- he was just as dominant. Iverson won in 2001, Shaq played alongside a stellar Kobe Bryant season in 2001, Duncan played with David Robinson, who did Iverson have in the eyes of the media?
It's pretty obvious isn't it? They're outscoring teams because they get 48 minutes of elite point guard play every night. Their second unit with Paul is the best second unit in basketball. Oh, and there's the fact that Harden is putting up otherworldly numbers while he's on the floor and creating points in isolation at a historic rate.


Well, Harden has Chris Paul -- he's likely going to get a good bit of top 5 MVP votes. If that's the case then post-1980 only Jordan in '96 and Moses Malone '83 won the MVP with a teammate in the top 5 -- Jordan and Malone played 82 games/3091 minutes and 78 games/2925 minutes respectively.
OK, so let's turn this whole "total minutes" conversation around for a minute. Paul is playing less than 32 minutes per night and has missed nearly a third of the season. Even if he played all 48 minutes tonight, he's not going to top 1,900 minutes this season. A total NBA season (not including overtime) is 3,936 minutes. So, he'll end up having played only about 47-48 percent of the season.

How is having less than half a season of Paul detrimental to Harden's MVP case? I just don't see the logic there, especially based on your own emphasis of total minutes.


I disagree, Harden's numbers are not better than James numbers this season, especially when you factor in that James played 9 or 10 more games.
We can agree to disagree, then. Average stats have always been a better indicator of who has had the better season. I've been watching basketball for more than two decades, and I've literally never seen an analyst compare two players in an MVP conversation by looking at their total stats. It's averages, dude. It's always been averages. You can certainly disagree on this point, but you'll be in the vast minority.


Defense is tough to quantify. This has been one of James' worst defensive performances in his career. That said, he's still -- from what I gather -- an above average defender. Harden is finishing his best defensive performance in his career. That said, he's still a below average defender.
But Lebron hasn't been above average this season. I don't think you'll find many analysts or experts who would argue that.


You may be right with Harden winning it. I definitely agree that he deserved it more than Westbrook last year. But if they're going to give it to Westbrook last year, with the Thunder winning just 47 games, it's no question to me that James should win it this year.
The difference between the Thunder and Rockets record-wise is far less than the difference between the Cavs and Rockets record-wise this season. Also, I think most people would agree that Westbrook won the award solely on the "averaging a triple double" accomplishment, whether it was warranted or not. It had little to do with his team's performance.


He has better individual numbers than Harden this year and last, and better numbers than Westbrook's MVP season -- Westbrook missed over 1100 shots and turned it over well over 400 times.
Except he doesn't have better numbers than Harden this season. That's your own (unusual) interpretation of their numbers.


The Cavs went 0-8 last year without James, and that was with Kyrie Irving in most of those games.
So what? Why are you using stats from last year to make a case for Lebron winning it this year? You were doing pretty well in this post until this totally useless stat.


Kevin Love has missed 20 games for the 2nd consecutive year.
So did Paul. In fact, every single significant rotational piece for Houston, aside from Tucker, will end up missing at least seven games. And only Harden, Capela and Tucker will end up playing at least 70+ games.


They've won just as many games without Kyrie and 18 different lineup changes because James elevated his game. If they were 0-8 last year without LeBron, I doubt they'd win 20 games if James were out for the season this year.
Also, people keep bringing up the 18 different starting lineups stat. I fail to see how that helps him. The only reason they had 18 different starting lineups is:
1. Kyrie was traded, causing a total roster shakeup that the team could never figure out. Lebron is at least partially responsible for Kyrie's exit.
2. The team had another total roster shakeup midseason after the team totally underwhelmed midyear. Lebron is absolutely partially responsible for those struggles, and if you look at his numbers in February, it's pretty clear to see that the team around him wasn't the only problem leading up to the All-Star break.


Meanwhile the Rockets don't even need Harden on the floor over 60% of the time to obliterate opponents. The Rockets went 6-3 this season without Harden with a +80 point differential.
Their opponents in those nine games: Chicago x2, Dallas, Clippers, Phoenix, Portland, Detroit, Golden State and Orlando. Two of those nine games were against playoff teams.


Eric Gordon should be sixth man of the year again, before you shout out Lou Williams .. go study what Gordon has been doing on the defensive end.

Clint Capela is a defensive player of the year candidate.

Chris Paul is likely to finish top 5 in the MVP voting.

The Rockets role players are the best in the NBA this season.
I don't disagree with many of these points, although I can assure you that Paul will not finish in the top 5 in MVP voting. He probably won't finish in the top 10. Daryl Morey has built a hell of a basketball team. But how many people prior to this season projected the Rockets to top 60 wins, much less finish with the best record in the league? They've completely exceeded expectations, and the whole team is built around Harden, who has had top 10-15 all-time caliber numbers this year.


After you consider all this information. Honestly, you tell me who is more valuable, LeBron James or James Harden? It's not that close.
James Harden is. Better numbers. Better team record. They'll finish with one of the 20 greatest records in NBA history, and Harden is the at the heart of everything they do as a team. He has a great No. 2, but a guy who has played less than half of the season in terms of total minutes. And he has some excellent role players, but those guys are just that: role players.

Is his team better than Lebron's? Absolutely. But how does that devalue what Harden has done? Based on similar logic you used earlier in the post, if we were to look at what Harden did last year without Paul, the Rockets were still a 55-win team last season. Was Harden's supporting cast last year that much better than what Lebron has this year? And when you factor in that Harden has been better this season, I fail to see why the Rockets having more talent should hurt his cause.

Saddletramp
04-11-2018, 07:48 PM
How is it contradictory?

"Warriors should win the NBA Championship but Houston can beat them."

Is that contradictory to you? No, because it isn't. You just read what you want to see.

Just like when I say, Harden should win the NBA MVP but I would vote for LeBron."

There's nothing contradictory about it.

Yeah, that's a total contradiction. Saying someone should win something but you'd vote for someone else is just a disservice to the award and both guys.

You switched up the context in both of those statements. No one votes on who wins games, people vote on who wins an award. To equate it it would be "Harden should win but Lebron could win." To say that someone deserves to win but you'd still vote for someone else is contradictory.

JasonJohnHorn
04-11-2018, 08:15 PM
An interesting post from Cleveland beat writer Jason Loyd:


It wonít be long now until James Harden completes the journey, until he strides to a podium in Houston and receives his hard-earned Most Valuable Player award. Harden is a wonderful player. He has produced yet another fabulous season. It seems inevitable by now he will exit with his first MVP trophy.

But it wonít be unanimous.

Iím voting for LeBron James.

As someone who has held an MVP vote more years than not in the past decade, one of my great professional fears is 20 years from now, we look back on Jamesí magnificent career and wonder how itís possible the greatest player of his generation ó arguably the greatest of all time ó could retire with only four MVP trophies.

That in itself isnít reason enough to vote for him. The MVP isnít meant as a career achievement award. But it does demand us to take a deep look at James every spring and make sure we can justify not voting for him.

James had a bad January by his lofty standards. He was sulking, perhaps silently protesting the Cavsí misfit roster through his play. Yet, he still averaged 23.5 points, 7.3 rebounds and 7.4 assists as the Cavs came apart at the seams. Guys have gone to All-Star games with numbers far worse.

James also has been part of a defense mired in 29th in defensive rating. The Cavs have been a disaster defensively all season, and he is culpable. There is no denying he has failed to close out, failed to get even to half court on plenty of defensive possessions. These are the sins on his season.

Yet, thereís also this: In every year since 2012, one advanced metric has correctly predicted the NBAís MVP. The player who finished first in Value Over Replacement Player each of the past six years, from Kevin Durant to James to Steph Curry to Russell Westbrook, has also gone on to win the MVP.

This year? James is first in VORP. Harden is second.

What is VORP? It isnít discussed or referenced as much as player efficiency rating, perhaps because PER came along first and is pushed heavily by ESPN. But those who make a living working for NBA teams and studying these types of numbers believe PER, despite having efficiency in its name, actually is inefficient because it rewards high volume shooters.

VORP, while limited to box score data and play by play, also factors in team performance. It is basically an estimate of the points, per 100 possessions, that a player contributed above replacement level. The Cavs, like most teams, use their own set of internal metrics to measure players. But one data set they do use is a version very similar to VORP.

Now just because James is first in VORP isnít enough to vote for him, but itís certainly curious that since 2006, the player who finished first in VORP has won the MVP every year except four times. In all four years (í06-í08 and 2011), James finished first in VORP and failed to win the MVP. He truly could ó and perhaps should ó win the MVP almost every year.

James will finish this season with more points, rebounds, assists and blocks than Harden. He will also become just the second player in NBA/ABA history to average at least 27 points, 8 rebounds and 9 assists while shooting better than 50 percent. Oscar Robertson did it while shooting 52 percent in 1962-63. James is doing it while shooting 54 percent this season.

And yet heís doing all of this at age 33 and in his 15th season despite less help, not more. As my colleague, ESPNís Dave McMenamin astutely pointed out, Harden benefited this season from the Rockets adding Chris Paul. The Cavs, meanwhile, took away Kyrie Irving and instead gave James a broken Isaiah Thomas. Then he lost Kevin Love for two months to a fractured hand. Yet, James still has the Cavs back to 50 wins and a division title despite a roster that has been torn down and rebuilt multiple times in the past 10 months.

This might be viewed as trying to be a contrarian ó or worse, a homer. Thatís fine. I know of plenty bitter Cleveland fans who still havenít forgiven me for voting for Andre Iguodala as 2015 Finals MVP over James. (For the record, I stand by that decision today).

It has been five years now since James won his last MVP. No player in history has gone more than four seasons between awards. The longer this goes, itís fair to wonder whether this is really it, if he really will finish one MVP shy of Michael Jordan and Bill Russell and two shy of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Harden is sensational. If Iíd spent the past six months watching him play, I might view this differently. But one of the two best players of all time is enjoying perhaps his finest season. That makes my choice relatively easy, even if the majority of voters probably wonít see it that way.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-11-2018, 08:28 PM
So, I see your point here. But I think this is a little different then the takes I'm seeing from specific PSD posters (namely Flashbolt) who suggest that Harden deserves to win, but that he wouldn't personally vote for Harden. That's totally contradictory to me.

But, yeah, I get the whole "I think this person will win, but I'd personally vote for someone else" conversation.


OK, but nobody's forcing you to respond to me. And if you know I'm going to get emotional over my favorite player and my favorite team, I can't force you to debate. That's OK. :shrug:


In a perfect world? Absolutely. But this is PSD.


The thing is that I don't disagree with some of the points that some posters have made. Paul coming to Houston, Harden's quality teammates and his somewhat lackluster play in March/April should have a small impact on Harden's candidacy. I'm not debating that. I just don't think those three factors alone come close to derailing a guy who's statistically having a superior season to everyone else in the league and who plays on the best team in the league.

If we look at the history of the award, the two greatest factors have always been:
1. Who has the best numbers?
2. How good is his team?

Harden kills it in both categories. So those other factors, for me, are totally negligible by comparison. People can certainly bring those points up, but how can you possibly justify them being enough to derail an exemplary MVP season? I just don't see the justification for it at all.

That's what I'm saying though.

Because of those criteria, I know he will win MVP. I'm saying I don't value team wins as heavily (at all really) and I mentioned in another post that I believe the trend in the future will be focused on a players overall value than it is things like falling short expectations, overachieving, etc.

If the discussion was strictly who performed the best and who was the most valuable, the argument is closer and I'm sure that's where the discrepancy comes in with regards to the article I mentioned regarding who should/will win MVP. If we are arguing about who will win based on the current criteria, I'm not going to argue against Harden but I don't like the mainstream criteria.

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 08:44 PM
The guy makes good points, but his key statistic (VORP) is a cumulative one, and is a number that obviously would favor a guy who has played in nine more games.

valade16
04-11-2018, 09:29 PM
The problem I have with people arguing LeBron James should be MVP are trying to use criteria that haven't been used to pick past MVPs and certainly weren't used when James was winning them.

In 2013 LeBron won MVP but KD had more cumulative Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. So why didn't anyone bring that up and say KD should be MVP over Bron then?

mightybosstone
04-11-2018, 10:23 PM
The problem I have with people arguing LeBron James should be MVP are trying to use criteria that haven't been used to pick past MVPs and certainly weren't used when James was winning them.

In 2013 LeBron won MVP but KD had more cumulative Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. So why didn't anyone bring that up and say KD should be MVP over Bron then?

:nod:

Raps18-19 Champ
04-11-2018, 10:31 PM
The problem I have with people arguing LeBron James should be MVP are trying to use criteria that haven't been used to pick past MVPs and certainly weren't used when James was winning them.

In 2013 LeBron won MVP but KD had more cumulative Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. So why didn't anyone bring that up and say KD should be MVP over Bron then?

That's part of evolving though. Given the information we have now, no way in hell do people vote Iverson as MVP.

That relates to the thread you made earlier too with Nash/Rose/Westbrook/Iverson. As each year goes by and we know more, the more we realize how bad of a pick those guys were, even though there wasn't as much complaints back when they won. Of course if he were to look back at 2013 and gave contradicting reasons as to why Durant/Lebron should win, then it's a problem.

Raps18-19 Champ
04-11-2018, 10:38 PM
I think VORP probably becomes much more popular in a few years after stats are measured more accurately. In baseball, WAR is king and a pitcher missing 3-4 starts can be the difference for a lot of voters. Basketball a different sport of course but I'm sure people are trying to quantify all these stats into a catch all single performance indicator. If basketball trends in that direction, that would reward guys for individual performance much more, especially guys out of the playoff race more consideration (which I would prefer).

Lionel20
04-11-2018, 11:16 PM
And despite that, Harden still leads the league in a cumulative statistic like win shares.


I'm just saying you can't discredit an argument that compares the raw total numbers of players and then refer to the over 80% of player valuation advanced stats that are built on them.



He also played 76 games in 2012-13. And if we're going to argue that he was much better than Durant, I'd argue that Harden has been much better than Lebron.


The averages are somewhat similar in the case of Harden v. James in 2018:

James

PPG - 27.7
RPG - 8.7
APG - 9.2
SPG - 1.4
BPG - 0.9
TOV - 4.2
EFG% - .590

Harden

PPG - 30.4
RPG - 5.4
APG - 8.8
SPG - 1.8
BPG - 0.7
TOV - 4.4
EFG% - .541

But I'd still argue that James has a bit more than just the edge. James has the advantage in rebounds, assists, turnovers, blocks, and field goals per game. Harden has better averages in points, steals. Harden is the league leading scorer, topping James by almost 3 points per, but James effective FG pct. is 10% higher than Harden. He averages almost 5 more rebounds per night. James also, averages more (assists+secondary assists), blocked shots, and holds his opponents to less than their league average shooting from the floor. He's done this is nine games more Harden. How is that not significant? How are Harden's numbers better?



This is actually a fair point. But at what point do you factor in the two games where Harden got rest because his team was so far ahead of the rest of the league that he could afford it? If we factor in those two games, he'd be sitting at 75 games, only one less than Lebron's 09-10 and 12-13 years and the same number as Nash in 04-05.


Purely hypothetical. The Rockets have clinched homecourt awhile ago, Harden has still been in the lineup.



But it's a different league, chief. You're trying to use a blanket statement for something that isn't nearly as relevant today as it was as little as 10 years ago. Guys get rest today and they don't play a ton of minutes. A few months ago, I was looking at the number of players who played 35+ minutes in the league this season versus 10-15 years ago, and the difference is pretty staggering.


I'm aware.

The top 5 players in MPG in 2005-06, averaged 42 mpg, this year the top 5 average 36.8. So if we translate James' 37.2 mpg into 2005-06 by comparison, it equals 42.5 -- that's prime Iverson level. Why is LeBron in his 15th season playing so many minutes relative to the rest of the league? Because unlike Harden, he can't afford to take games off, or sit out for nearly 40% of those 3,936+ potential minutes in the season. The Cavaliers needed everyone of James 3,000+ minutes. They're going to lose to the Knicks tonight by 10+ because James sat out the last three quarters. I've watched a lot of basketball over the years. I swear the Cavs minus James are a below 20 win team this season.




You can see this in MVPs of the last few seasons. Curry and Westbrook won the last three MVPs playing fewer than 35 minutes per game. In fact, in total, Harden will probably come up fewer than 50 total minutes from Curry's total minutes of 2,613 in the 2014-15 season, a year in which he posted inferior numbers to Harden.


It's pretty obvious isn't it? They're outscoring teams because they get 48 minutes of elite point guard play every night. Their second unit with Paul is the best second unit in basketball. Oh, and there's the fact that Harden is putting up otherworldly numbers while he's on the floor and creating points in isolation at a historic rate.


OK, so let's turn this whole "total minutes" conversation around for a minute. Paul is playing less than 32 minutes per night and has missed nearly a third of the season. Even if he played all 48 minutes tonight, he's not going to top 1,900 minutes this season. A total NBA season (not including overtime) is 3,936 minutes. So, he'll end up having played only about 47-48 percent of the season.



How is having less than half a season of Paul detrimental to Harden's MVP case? I just don't see the logic there, especially based on your own emphasis of total minutes.



Oh I agree, Paul should not be a top 5 player this year. But I was looking at basketball reference MVP tracker, they give Harden a 70% chance of winning MVP this season, James 10%, and guess who's 3rd with a 7% probability... Chris Paul. lol



We can agree to disagree, then. Average stats have always been a better indicator of who has had the better season. I've been watching basketball for more than two decades, and I've literally never seen an analyst compare two players in an MVP conversation by looking at their total stats. It's averages, dude. It's always been averages. You can certainly disagree on this point, but you'll be in the vast minority.


But Lebron hasn't been above average this season. I don't think you'll find many analysts or experts who would argue that.


They usually have to bring up total stats because most MVP candidates play between the upper 70s and 82 games in a season -- at that point it's all about averages.

LeBron defensively: 70+ blocks, 100+ steals, and holding opponents below their average FG% sounds above average to me.



The difference between the Thunder and Rockets record-wise is far less than the difference between the Cavs and Rockets record-wise this season. Also, I think most people would agree that Westbrook won the award solely on the "averaging a triple double" accomplishment, whether it was warranted or not. It had little to do with his team's performance.


Except he doesn't have better numbers than Harden this season. That's your own (unusual) interpretation of their numbers.


So what? Why are you using stats from last year to make a case for Lebron winning it this year? You were doing pretty well in this post until this totally useless stat.


So did Paul. In fact, every single significant rotational piece for Houston, aside from Tucker, will end up missing at least seven games. And only Harden, Capela and Tucker will end up playing at least 70+ games.


Also, people keep bringing up the 18 different starting lineups stat. I fail to see how that helps him. The only reason they had 18 different starting lineups is:
1. Kyrie was traded, causing a total roster shakeup that the team could never figure out. Lebron is at least partially responsible for Kyrie's exit.
2. The team had another total roster shakeup midseason after the team totally underwhelmed midyear. Lebron is absolutely partially responsible for those struggles, and if you look at his numbers in February, it's pretty clear to see that the team around him wasn't the only problem leading up to the All-Star break.


Their opponents in those nine games: Chicago x2, Dallas, Clippers, Phoenix, Portland, Detroit, Golden State and Orlando. Two of those nine games were against playoff teams.

I don't disagree with many of these points, although I can assure you that Paul will not finish in the top 5 in MVP voting. He probably won't finish in the top 10. Daryl Morey has built a hell of a basketball team. But how many people prior to this season projected the Rockets to top 60 wins, much less finish with the best record in the league? They've completely exceeded expectations, and the whole team is built around Harden, who has had top 10-15 all-time caliber numbers this year.


James Harden is. Better numbers. Better team record. They'll finish with one of the 20 greatest records in NBA history, and Harden is the at the heart of everything they do as a team. He has a great No. 2, but a guy who has played less than half of the season in terms of total minutes. And he has some excellent role players, but those guys are just that: role players.

Is his team better than Lebron's? Absolutely. But how does that devalue what Harden has done? Based on similar logic you used earlier in the post, if we were to look at what Harden did last year without Paul, the Rockets were still a 55-win team last season. Was Harden's supporting cast last year that much better than what Lebron has this year? And when you factor in that Harden has been better this season, I fail to see why the Rockets having more talent should hurt his cause.

The Cavs have an inconsistent roster full of average and below average players. I think Kevin Love is above average. He's terrible defensively. I think Jeff Green's above average. JR, Crowder, Thompson, Rose and Isaiah Thomas were horrible this year, Thomas shot 36% from the floor. Clarkson and Hood are above average scorers, but below average defensively. Wade and Korver are average players overall. The lineup has changed almost 20 times, the head coach has been out, this is a bad team that would be in the tanking race... but they have LeBron James.

The Rockets: The lost Lou Williams and I guess Patrick Beverly from last year, but they acquired Chris Paul in the off-season so they're automatically better. Even though Paul has missed a quarter of the season, he has made enough of an impact to account for the 10 or 11 wins the Rockets have over last year -- Paul is averaging 19 pts/8 ast/and the same amount of rebounds as Harden per game/half the turnovers. In addition to Paul, Eric Gordon is playing at an All-Star level, so is Capela -- 3.3 ORB, 2nd in the league in Blocked Shots. Ryan Anderson doesn't shoot the 3pt as well as Korver, but he's a great shooter, slightly better defender, much better rebounder. Ariza's been average, NeNe and Mbah a Moute are both above average defenders. Gerald Green's been pretty good off the bench. The only real disappointment I'd think has been PJ Tucker, and he's still shooting the 3 at 38%.

These are two completely different teams. If you take Harden off the Rockets, even with Chris Paul missing over 20 games, the Rockets are still a playoff team in the West. The Cavaliers on the other hand will likely have another lottery pick.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:47 AM
I'm just saying you can't discredit an argument that compares the raw total numbers of players and then refer to the over 80% of player valuation advanced stats that are built on them.



The averages are somewhat similar in the case of Harden v. James in 2018:

James

PPG - 27.7
RPG - 8.7
APG - 9.2
SPG - 1.4
BPG - 0.9
TOV - 4.2
EFG% - .590

Harden

PPG - 30.4
RPG - 5.4
APG - 8.8
SPG - 1.8
BPG - 0.7
TOV - 4.4
EFG% - .541

But I'd still argue that James has a bit more than just the edge. James has the advantage in rebounds, assists, turnovers, blocks, and field goals per game. Harden has better averages in points, steals. Harden is the league leading scorer, topping James by almost 3 points per, but James effective FG pct. is 10% higher than Harden. He averages almost 5 more rebounds per night. James also, averages more (assists+secondary assists), blocked shots, and holds his opponents to less than their league average shooting from the floor. He's done this is nine games more Harden. How is that not significant? How are Harden's numbers better?



Purely hypothetical. The Rockets have clinched homecourt awhile ago, Harden has still been in the lineup.



I'm aware.

The top 5 players in MPG in 2005-06, averaged 42 mpg, this year the top 5 average 36.8. So if we translate James' 37.2 mpg into 2005-06 by comparison, it equals 42.5 -- that's prime Iverson level. Why is LeBron in his 15th season playing so many minutes relative to the rest of the league? Because unlike Harden, he can't afford to take games off, or sit out for nearly 40% of those 3,936+ potential minutes in the season. The Cavaliers needed everyone of James 3,000+ minutes. They're going to lose to the Knicks tonight by 10+ because James sat out the last three quarters. I've watched a lot of basketball over the years. I swear the Cavs minus James are a below 20 win team this season.




Oh I agree, Paul should not be a top 5 player this year. But I was looking at basketball reference MVP tracker, they give Harden a 70% chance of winning MVP this season, James 10%, and guess who's 3rd with a 7% probability... Chris Paul. lol



They usually have to bring up total stats because most MVP candidates play between the upper 70s and 82 games in a season -- at that point it's all about averages.

LeBron defensively: 70+ blocks, 100+ steals, and holding opponents below their average FG% sounds above average to me.



The Cavs have an inconsistent roster full of average and below average players. I think Kevin Love is above average. He's terrible defensively. I think Jeff Green's above average. JR, Crowder, Thompson, Rose and Isaiah Thomas were horrible this year, Thomas shot 36% from the floor. Clarkson and Hood are above average scorers, but below average defensively. Wade and Korver are average players overall. The lineup has changed almost 20 times, the head coach has been out, this is a bad team that would be in the tanking race... but they have LeBron James.

The Rockets: The lost Lou Williams and I guess Patrick Beverly from last year, but they acquired Chris Paul in the off-season so they're automatically better. Even though Paul has missed a quarter of the season, he has made enough of an impact to account for the 10 or 11 wins the Rockets have over last year -- Paul is averaging 19 pts/8 ast/and the same amount of rebounds as Harden per game/half the turnovers. In addition to Paul, Eric Gordon is playing at an All-Star level, so is Capela -- 3.3 ORB, 2nd in the league in Blocked Shots. Ryan Anderson doesn't shoot the 3pt as well as Korver, but he's a great shooter, slightly better defender, much better rebounder. Ariza's been average, NeNe and Mbah a Moute are both above average defenders. Gerald Green's been pretty good off the bench. The only real disappointment I'd think has been PJ Tucker, and he's still shooting the 3 at 38%.

These are two completely different teams. If you take Harden off the Rockets, even with Chris Paul missing over 20 games, the Rockets are still a playoff team in the West. The Cavaliers on the other hand will likely have another lottery pick.

Amen to this. But MVP voters don't care about this information as much as they do wins. So that's why I said Harden should win it. And let's be honest here: As soon as I heard LeBron was only going to play up until he got 10 points, I knew they were losing vs the Knicks. Not that the Cavs really cared but the rest of the roster didn't even play well. This is a poor system from a poor coach (Vee hates Lue) with a rotating cast of players who aren't healthy/new. I mean, last season they won 51 games WITH Kyrie Irving. This season, they win 50 games WITHOUT Kyrie Irving, Love missing over 20 games, a new rotation of players, injured players throughout the year, and one guy is always there playing every game: LeBron James. He's been doing it all for his team and it's not "garbage" minutes at all. For every minute he is out there, they need it. Does anyone have any doubt that without Harden, this Rockets team wouldn't win 50 games and make the playoffs? I think they would. Now, does anyone here think Cavs win 30 games in this WEAK East without LeBron? I don't think so. It doesn't take a genius to see the rosters and compare them. But if you're just going to ignore that, look at advanced stats that is clearly ties in with your teammates performance, and only want to consider wins as the highest criteria, yes, Harden is the MVP. But if you're looking at the entire picture and VALUE, LeBron is simply, IMO, the most valuable player in the NBA.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:50 AM
The problem I have with people arguing LeBron James should be MVP are trying to use criteria that haven't been used to pick past MVPs and certainly weren't used when James was winning them.

In 2013 LeBron won MVP but KD had more cumulative Points, Rebounds, Assists, Blocks, Steals. So why didn't anyone bring that up and say KD should be MVP over Bron then?

Very simple: LeBron in 2013 was #2 in DPOY voting and probably should have won it.

He was the league's best perimeter defender. And everyone knew it.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:54 AM
Yeah, that's a total contradiction. Saying someone should win something but you'd vote for someone else is just a disservice to the award and both guys.

You switched up the context in both of those statements. No one votes on who wins games, people vote on who wins an award. To equate it it would be "Harden should win but Lebron could win." To say that someone deserves to win but you'd still vote for someone else is contradictory.

It's still a matter of prediction based on what the standards of MVP voting are. When I say should, I am referring to the fact that NBA has a certain criteria that they generally reward to and that is why there has been a mixed reaction to those who say valuable. If the NBA voters vote based on how they did previously, yes, Harden should win it. That's always been my stand. But if we're voting based on value and what they bring to their team, I vote LeBron. I think he brings more to his team right now. Why do we ignore Harden's teammates? I mean, without CP3, they aren't the same team. With CP3, they are on another level. Does CP3 get any credit being a top five PG and elite defender? Who does LeBron have to supplement that?

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:57 AM
Rockets are 15-9 without Chris Paul. Does he get any credit?

ewing
04-12-2018, 06:18 AM
Rockets are 15-9 without Chris Paul. Does he get any credit?

Of course he does. There is only one guy in the league that takes all the credit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lionel20
04-12-2018, 08:35 AM
Very simple: LeBron in 2013 was #2 in DPOY voting and probably should have won it.

He was the league's best perimeter defender. And everyone knew it.

This is the exact thing that I was going to point out when I saw that post. James finished 2nd to Marc Gasol that year. Durant didnít receive any votes for the defensive player of the year. Also, Durant did not have more total assists than James that year. James was a top two offensive player and top two defensive player that year, Iím not sure how he wasnít unanimous?

valade16
04-12-2018, 11:06 AM
That's part of evolving though. Given the information we have now, no way in hell do people vote Iverson as MVP.

That relates to the thread you made earlier too with Nash/Rose/Westbrook/Iverson. As each year goes by and we know more, the more we realize how bad of a pick those guys were, even though there wasn't as much complaints back when they won. Of course if he were to look back at 2013 and gave contradicting reasons as to why Durant/Lebron should win, then it's a problem.

But discounting all efficiency and rate stats in favor of most points + rebounds + assists etc. doesn't seem like evolution, it's a step back.

Nobody is going to look back on Harden this year and think it's a bad pick, certainly nobody will say LeBron got robbed.

valade16
04-12-2018, 11:07 AM
Very simple: LeBron in 2013 was #2 in DPOY voting and probably should have won it.

He was the league's best perimeter defender. And everyone knew it.

Except nobody said LeBron's superior defense outweighed KD's superior totals. It was just LeBron's defense and efficiency stats were better so he deserves it.

Nobody even brought the argument up then, and it's not the entire crux of why LeBron should win.

This whole thing seems like people desperately trying to find a reason to vote LeBron MVP.

valade16
04-12-2018, 11:12 AM
This is the exact thing that I was going to point out when I saw that post. James finished 2nd to Marc Gasol that year. Durant didnít receive any votes for the defensive player of the year. Also, Durant did not have more total assists than James that year. James was a top two offensive player and top two defensive player that year, Iím not sure how he wasnít unanimous?

Because your argument was that LeBron James deserves MVP this year because he has the most total points/rebounds/assists/etc. KD did that year, so now other things besides just that matter?

The argument for LeBron winning it that year was that LeBron had the highest PER, WS/48, BPM, the Heat had the best record in the league, and he finished second in DPOY.

Harden has 2/3 and LeBron certainly won't finished anywhere near the top for DPOY.

So by the exact criteria we used for LeBron James in past MVP votes, says Harden should win this year. And now we want to change it because LeBron won't win? Stop trying to find a reason to give it to LeBron.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:46 PM
Except nobody said LeBron's superior defense outweighed KD's superior totals. It was just LeBron's defense and efficiency stats were better so he deserves it.

Nobody even brought the argument up then, and it's not the entire crux of why LeBron should win.

This whole thing seems like people desperately trying to find a reason to vote LeBron MVP.

Lmao, what? No one made the case for KD because of LeBron's superior defense. If Harden was playing Kawhi-Leonard type defense, we wouldn't even be talking about this MVP debate.

Go find the thread for us. I'm pretty sure we all knew what the deal was back then. But it sounds like you forgot LeBron was the best defender back then and now just want to "explain" yourself. It's okay to be wrong, you know?

Plus, not every season is the same. Both teams had equally good teammates for Bron/KD. I'm pretty sure LeBron's team isn't on the same level as Harden's team.

valade16
04-12-2018, 12:56 PM
Lmao, what? No one made the case for KD because of LeBron's superior defense. If Harden was playing Kawhi-Leonard type defense, we wouldn't even be talking about this MVP debate.

Go find the thread for us. I'm pretty sure we all knew what the deal was back then. But it sounds like you forgot LeBron was the best defender back then and now just want to "explain" yourself. It's okay to be wrong, you know?

Plus, not every season is the same. Both teams had equally good teammates for Bron/KD. I'm pretty sure LeBron's team isn't on the same level as Harden's team.

Ironic sentiment considering Harden is about to crush LeBron in MVP voting. You are apparently one of the few who can't yet see it.

As for Harden's team being better than LeBron's this year. Sure. But when has that ever stopped someone from being MVP?

MVP often goes to the best player on the best team. It's probably been that way 75% of the time. So what exactly is your argument? That although this has been how MVP's are picked since time immemorial, suddenly when it's LeBron losing now it's not a good way to determine MVP?

I didn't hear a single person say LeBron shouldn't win the award in Miami because he had such a good supporting cast. Now when it's Harden suddenly he can't win it because his team is too good? Sorry, where were people saying that for Shaq? For Magic? For MJ? For Bird? For Curry?


What is the argument for LeBron? His team hasn't been as good. That's it. Because Harden clearly outplayed him this regular season. He is better in every advanced metric of efficiency.

FOXHOUND
04-12-2018, 02:19 PM
Of course he does. There is only one guy in the league that takes all the credit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:laugh2: Nice

FOXHOUND
04-12-2018, 02:19 PM
Except nobody said LeBron's superior defense outweighed KD's superior totals. It was just LeBron's defense and efficiency stats were better so he deserves it.

Nobody even brought the argument up then, and it's not the entire crux of why LeBron should win.

This whole thing seems like people desperately trying to find a reason to vote LeBron MVP.

Exactly.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:34 PM
Ironic sentiment considering Harden is about to crush LeBron in MVP voting. You are apparently one of the few who can't yet see it.

As for Harden's team being better than LeBron's this year. Sure. But when has that ever stopped someone from being MVP?

MVP often goes to the best player on the best team. It's probably been that way 75% of the time. So what exactly is your argument? That although this has been how MVP's are picked since time immemorial, suddenly when it's LeBron losing now it's not a good way to determine MVP?

I didn't hear a single person say LeBron shouldn't win the award in Miami because he had such a good supporting cast. Now when it's Harden suddenly he can't win it because his team is too good? Sorry, where were people saying that for Shaq? For Magic? For MJ? For Bird? For Curry?


What is the argument for LeBron? His team hasn't been as good. That's it. Because Harden clearly outplayed him this regular season. He is better in every advanced metric of efficiency.

So why is it with CP3 out, they are a 15-9 team?

valade16
04-12-2018, 02:58 PM
So why is it with CP3 out, they are a 15-9 team?

Because CP3 is a very good player? But consider that even without CP3 the Rocket's 15-9 record extrapolated over 82 games would be 51 wins. So without CP3, Harden still had the Rockets on pace for more wins than the Cavs, in the tougher West no less.

So you can't even argue LeBron's inferior teammates because even without CP3, Harden is still leading the Rockets to more wins than LeBron led Cleveland.

Lionel20
04-12-2018, 03:35 PM
Because your argument was that LeBron James deserves MVP this year because he has the most total points/rebounds/assists/etc. KD did that year, so now other things besides just that matter?

The argument for LeBron winning it that year was that LeBron had the highest PER, WS/48, BPM, the Heat had the best record in the league, and he finished second in DPOY.

Harden has 2/3 and LeBron certainly won't finished anywhere near the top for DPOY.

So by the exact criteria we used for LeBron James in past MVP votes, says Harden should win this year. And now we want to change it because LeBron won't win? Stop trying to find a reason to give it to LeBron.

Why do you insist on claiming that Durant had more assists than James in 2013? He didnít. In fact idk if Durant ever had a year with more assist than James.

valade16
04-12-2018, 03:41 PM
Why do you insist on claiming that Durant had more assists than James in 2013? He didnít. In fact idk if Durant ever had a year with more assist than James.

I'm not, I'm saying KD had more combined Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals and Blocks than LeBron in 2013. Not each individually but overall he more of them combined.

Lionel20
04-12-2018, 06:00 PM
I'm not, I'm saying KD had more combined Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals and Blocks than LeBron in 2013. Not each individually but overall he more of them combined.

This sounds like a straw man. Whose making that argument ó combined (pts, reb, ast, etc.)? One FGM is worth 2 or 3 pts, so the player with most FG is probably going to win out.

My argument was that James has had more of an impact on just about each phase of the game (passing, shooting, rebounding, defense) than Harden through the duration of the regular season, and is therefore more ďvaluableĒ to his team than Harden. Harden was out, the Rockets go 6-3 w an +80 point differential. The Cavs were 0-8 without James in the lineup last year, on a team that had Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. I doubt this years supporting cast is better. It seem highly unlikely the Cavs would have a winning record without James on the floor this year.

valade16
04-12-2018, 06:13 PM
This sounds like a straw man. Whose making that argument ó combined (pts, reb, ast, etc.)? One FGM is worth 2 or 3 pts, so the player with most FG is probably going to win out.

My argument was that James has had more of an impact on just about each phase of the game (passing, shooting, rebounding, defense) than Harden through the duration of the regular season, and is therefore more ďvaluableĒ to his team than Harden. Harden was out, the Rockets go 6-3 w an +80 point differential. The Cavs were 0-8 without James in the lineup last year, on a team that had Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. I doubt this years supporting cast is better. It seem highly unlikely the Cavs would have a winning record without James on the floor this year.

It's no more a straw man than the ridiculous argument you've conjured. For instance, your argument is that James had more of an impact scoring the basketball than Harden despite the fact Harden averages more PPG.

Your entire argument rests on the idea that James has played more games than Harden, OK, well James didn't play 82 games for any of his previous MVPs, so should he have not won those since other players played more games?

It's a terrible argument. Give me the guy who plays 90% of the time at a higher level over the guy who plays 100% of the time at a lesser level (and before you dispute the lesser level, by every advanced metric of efficiency, Harden was the superior player this season).

cmellofan15
04-12-2018, 07:20 PM
lmao the basis of the Lebron for MVP is voter pity, and Iím pretty sure thatís not how this whole thing works

Raps18-19 Champ
04-12-2018, 07:27 PM
But discounting all efficiency and rate stats in favor of most points + rebounds + assists etc. doesn't seem like evolution, it's a step back.

Nobody is going to look back on Harden this year and think it's a bad pick, certainly nobody will say LeBron got robbed.

Wasn't referring to his specific example. Just the idea that X criteria has never been used before. At one point, advance stats were never used to determine MVP either. Maybe it's not this year, but at some point, people will start using new criteria to determine MVP.

We all know Harden is going to win at this point. But it's possible some guys voting for Lebron might be judging based on another set of criteria that might end up being the trend going forward.

Lionel20
04-12-2018, 08:52 PM
It's no more a straw man than the ridiculous argument you've conjured. For instance, your argument is that James had more of an impact scoring the basketball than Harden despite the fact Harden averages more PPG.

Your entire argument rests on the idea that James has played more games than Harden, OK, well James didn't play 82 games for any of his previous MVPs, so should he have not won those since other players played more games?

It's a terrible argument. Give me the guy who plays 90% of the time at a higher level over the guy who plays 100% of the time at a lesser level (and before you dispute the lesser level, by every advanced metric of efficiency, Harden was the superior player this season).

Harden is the slightly better scorer because of ability to get to the foul line, about four more times per game than James this season, and he knock them down at 86%. But James is the slightly best shooter as evidenced by the TS%, it's not so much about range as it is his ability to get to the basket. James is the better passer and rebounder. Who would disagree with this?

Now on the defensive end, it always difficult to go by the advanced metrics. The advanced defensive stats are designed to assess team stats. In most defensive metrics if a player doesn't have league leading defensive box stats and plays starter minutes on a poor defensive team, the assumption is that that player must be a poor defender. But that's not always the case. If one player is good, and the other four on the floor are poor, then the effectiveness of the good players gets obscured by the metric. That's why I submitted the individual opponent FG differentials to show that, in James case, he's actually holding opponents to less than their average FG%. It's a detail that completely ignored by all of the defensive advanced stats that I know.

But if you look at the cumulative stats, and the raw defensive that are produced with the opponent FG differentials, block shots, steals, defensive fouls, it's hard to argue that James -- defending without a rim protector -- isn't the better defender this year.

All that, and we also have a record of what the Rockets did without Harden this season.

It's just obvious that James is more valuable to his team and should win MVP.

valade16
04-12-2018, 09:23 PM
Harden is the slightly better scorer because of ability to get to the foul line, about four more times per game than James this season, and he knock them down at 86%. But James is the slightly best shooter as evidenced by the TS%, it's not so much about range as it is his ability to get to the basket. James is the better passer and rebounder. Who would disagree with this?

Now on the defensive end, it always difficult to go by the advanced metrics. The advanced defensive stats are designed to assess team stats. In most defensive metrics if a player doesn't have league leading defensive box stats and plays starter minutes on a poor defensive team, the assumption is that that player must be a poor defender. But that's not always the case. If one player is good, and the other four on the floor are poor, then the effectiveness of the good players gets obscured by the metric. That's why I submitted the individual opponent FG differentials to show that, in James case, he's actually holding opponents to less than their average FG%. It's a detail that completely ignored by all of the defensive advanced stats that I know.

But if you look at the cumulative stats, and the raw defensive that are produced with the opponent FG differentials, block shots, steals, defensive fouls, it's hard to argue that James -- defending without a rim protector -- isn't the better defender this year.

All that, and we also have a record of what the Rockets did without Harden this season.

It's just obvious that James is more valuable to his team and should win MVP.

James is just the wildly more impactful offensive player at this point.

His Offensive Box Plus/Minus is 9.6. LeBron's is 7.6
His Offensive Win Shares is 11.6. LeBron's is 11.0
His points per 100 possessions is 42.3. LeBron's is 36.4.

That means if each got 100 possessions Harden is scoring 6 more PPG. That is a huge difference. Harden's assists per 100 possessions is 12.2 and LeBron's is 12.1. So Harden actually assists slightly more in the same amount of possessions.

And the Rocket's record without Harden this year, they went 6-4 when Harden rested. And 59-13 when he played. The difference between a 49 win team and a 68 win team. That's a freaking massive difference.

You say Cleveland would have a losing record if LeBron were off the team? Well they'd have to be a 31-51 team to match the degree of difference the Rocket's win% was at without Harden.

cmellofan15
04-12-2018, 09:23 PM
Lmao i love how you use advanced stats to try to prove that Lebron is the better shooter and then donít reference ANY stats and say heís a better passer. Go ahead and look at both of their TOV% and AST%....but you only nitpick the stats that suit your argument....

Saddletramp
04-12-2018, 11:21 PM
Use total numbers instead of averages.
Discount total numbers summed up together across multiple statlines.
Just anything that leads to Lebron winning.


Also, Harden led the league in 3 pointers made and shot the same percentage as Lebron did (.367%). So that's also a lot of misses at the same clip so of course his %s go down.

Lionel20
04-13-2018, 03:08 PM
James is just the wildly more impactful offensive player at this point.

His Offensive Box Plus/Minus is 9.6. LeBron's is 7.6
His Offensive Win Shares is 11.6. LeBron's is 11.0
His points per 100 possessions is 42.3. LeBron's is 36.4.

That means if each got 100 possessions Harden is scoring 6 more PPG. That is a huge difference. Harden's assists per 100 possessions is 12.2 and LeBron's is 12.1. So Harden actually assists slightly more in the same amount of possessions.

And the Rocket's record without Harden this year, they went 6-4 when Harden rested. And 59-13 when he played. The difference between a 49 win team and a 68 win team. That's a freaking massive difference.

You say Cleveland would have a losing record if LeBron were off the team? Well they'd have to be a 31-51 team to match the degree of difference the Rocket's win% was at without Harden.

You can't have an affect on the game if you're not on the floor. James has played almost 500 more minutes this season than Harden -- that's a significant difference. Formula's like points per possession ignore this disparity.

I like "Offensive" Win Shares more than OBPM, but both stats are weigh teammates performance heavily into the equation. OWS is based on points produced. I prefer to use the Alternate Win Score linear weights on the box stats. It correlates high with wins while isolating individual performance to a larger extent.

When the Rockets are led by Chris Paul & Harden is out, the Rockets are 6-3 (65% win pct.) +8.8 scoring differential per
When the Rockets are led by James Harden & Paul is out, the Rockets are 15-8 (66% win pct.) +5.1 scoring differential per

It's sort of a small sample, but these are the facts and the records. The Rockets last year were a .66 win% team last year. The Rockets without Paul are a 65-66 win% team this year. The Rockets without Harden are a 65-66 win% team this year. The Rockets with Harden minus Paul are a 55 win team just like last year. The Rockets with Paul minus Harden are 55 win team. I'll let you deduce what you can from that.

The Cavaliers were fortunate to not have to play without James this year. They did last year, and even with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love the Cavs went 0-4, 0-8 altogether. This year, they added some role players right before the deadline. Do the role players equate to Kyrie? Because even if they do, the Cavs were winless without James.

It's so obvious that James is the more valuable player.

valade16
04-13-2018, 03:20 PM
You can't have an affect on the game if you're not on the floor. James has played almost 500 more minutes this season than Harden -- that's a significant difference. Formula's like points per possession ignore this disparity.

I like "Offensive" Win Shares more than OBPM, but both stats are weigh teammates performance heavily into the equation. OWS is based on points produced. I prefer to use the Alternate Win Score linear weights on the box stats. It correlates high with wins while isolating individual performance to a larger extent.

When the Rockets are led by Chris Paul & Harden is out, the Rockets are 6-3 (65% win pct.) +8.8 scoring differential per
When the Rockets are led by James Harden & Paul is out, the Rockets are 15-8 (66% win pct.) +5.1 scoring differential per

It's sort of a small sample, but these are the facts and the records. The Rockets last year were a .66 win% team last year. The Rockets without Paul are a 65-66 win% team this year. The Rockets without Harden are a 65-66 win% team this year. The Rockets with Harden minus Paul are a 55 win team just like last year. The Rockets with Paul minus Harden are 55 win team. I'll let you deduce what you can from that.

The Cavaliers were fortunate to not have to play without James this year. They did last year, and even with Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love the Cavs went 0-4, 0-8 altogether. This year, they added some role players right before the deadline. Do the role players equate to Kyrie? Because even if they do, the Cavs were winless without James.

It's so obvious that James is the more valuable player.

That demonstrates exactly what I said: The Rockets without CP3 would still have had a better record this season than the Cavs. So when you bring up Harden's awesome teammates, you do realize when you take out the other All-NBA caliber player he still leads the Rockets to a better record than LeBron has the Cavs?

So in 500 more minutes LeBron couldn't even get his Cavs to win as many games as Harden could with the Rockets without CP3 (like last year)? What is so MVP about that?

MarkieMark48
04-13-2018, 03:41 PM
James is just the wildly more impactful offensive player at this point.

His Offensive Box Plus/Minus is 9.6. LeBron's is 7.6
His Offensive Win Shares is 11.6. LeBron's is 11.0
His points per 100 possessions is 42.3. LeBron's is 36.4.

That means if each got 100 possessions Harden is scoring 6 more PPG. That is a huge difference. Harden's assists per 100 possessions is 12.2 and LeBron's is 12.1. So Harden actually assists slightly more in the same amount of possessions.

And the Rocket's record without Harden this year, they went 6-4 when Harden rested. And 59-13 when he played. The difference between a 49 win team and a 68 win team. That's a freaking massive difference.

You say Cleveland would have a losing record if LeBron were off the team? Well they'd have to be a 31-51 team to match the degree of difference the Rocket's win% was at without Harden.

I certainly don't see the Cavs winning 31 games without Lebron. If you took the Cavs record without him last year and spread it out over 82 games they would be on pace to be 0-82.

With that being said... Harden should and will be MVP this year

valade16
04-13-2018, 04:06 PM
I certainly don't see the Cavs winning 31 games without Lebron. If you took the Cavs record without him last year and spread it out over 82 games they would be on pace to be 0-82.

With that being said... Harden should and will be MVP this year

In the East? Brooklyn and the Knicks w/o Kristaps won 28 and 29 games, and the Cavs certainly aren't worse than them talent-wise.

MarkieMark48
04-13-2018, 04:29 PM
In the East? Brooklyn and the Knicks w/o Kristaps won 28 and 29 games, and the Cavs certainly aren't worse than them talent-wise.

I think a fair statement would be they would be in that neighborhood. Give or take a few games

valade16
04-13-2018, 04:41 PM
I think a fair statement would be they would be in that neighborhood. Give or take a few games

I agree with that.

Lionel20
04-13-2018, 06:36 PM
That demonstrates exactly what I said: The Rockets without CP3 would still have had a better record this season than the Cavs. So when you bring up Harden's awesome teammates, you do realize when you take out the other All-NBA caliber player he still leads the Rockets to a better record than LeBron has the Cavs?

So in 500 more minutes LeBron couldn't even get his Cavs to win as many games as Harden could with the Rockets without CP3 (like last year)? What is so MVP about that?

Youíve missed the point, and Iíve went through the Rockets roster in other posts in this thread, Harden doesnít have to play, if Paul is in the lineup the Rockets still win 65% of their games. What does that say about the supporting cast? As long as they have Harden or Paul in the lineup the Rockets win at least 55 games. Never mind that James doesnít have another teammate as effective as Paul. Never mind that the Rockets play just as good with Paul in the lineup instead of Harden. What does it say about the rest of the team when either the Rockets still win 65% of their games with one of their star players out?

James played 82 games and led the league in MP this season because he could and he had to. Heís the most valuable player by far this year.

valade16
04-13-2018, 06:43 PM
Youíve missed the point, and Iíve went through the Rockets roster in other posts in this thread, Harden doesnít have to play, if Paul is in the lineup the Rockets still win 65% of their games. What does that say about the supporting cast? As long as they have Harden or Paul in the lineup the Rockets win at least 55 games. Never mind that James doesnít have another teammate as effective as Paul. Never mind that the Rockets play just as good with Paul in the lineup instead of Harden. What does it say about the rest of the team when either the Rockets still win 65% of their games with one of their star players out?

James played 82 games and led the league in MP this season because he could and he had to. Heís the most valuable player by far this year.

And literally none of that matters, if CP3 were on the Cavs and LeBron didn't play, the Cavs would be doing as well as Houston has without Harden.

James played the most minutes per game because he had to. But why did he have to? Because his team was a train wreck to start the season and he checked out for about a month straight, and the GM had to detonate the entire lineup to get them to start playing better.

Had he not been a bad leader, or had he not gone ghost for a month, he wouldn't have had to play 82 games or the most minutes. So I'm not going to give him credit for fixing his own ****-ups.

Lionel20
04-13-2018, 10:15 PM
And literally none of that matters, if CP3 were on the Cavs and LeBron didn't play, the Cavs would be doing as well as Houston has without Harden.

James played the most minutes per game because he had to. But why did he have to? Because his team was a train wreck to start the season and he checked out for about a month straight, and the GM had to detonate the entire lineup to get them to start playing better.

Had he not been a bad leader, or had he not gone ghost for a month, he wouldn't have had to play 82 games or the most minutes. So I'm not going to give him credit for fixing his own ****-ups.

I have a record of what the Rockets did without Harden this year.

As for substituting Chris Paul for LeBron James: James hasnít missed any games this season. James and the core group of Cavs didnít play the final three qtrís in the final RS game v. Knicks. The Cavs got beat by by 12. But since James returned to Cleveland in the 2014-15 season, the Cavs have gone 4-20 with a point differential lower than -10 per game. They lose to opponents on average by double digits. They got blown out by 39, 30, 28, for example.

Even with their core group eg Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in the lineup, the Cavaliers are 4-18 with a negative -192 total point differential. The get run off the floor. Kyrie Irving is a very good player. You mean to tell me that Chris Paul is that much better than Kyrie Irving, to turn the Cavaliers into 14-8 team during that 22 game stretch. Thatís means Paul is worth more than 10 wins over Irving? How is he that much better than Kyrie? The Cavaliers are not a good team. The Cavaliers would struggle to reach 25-30 wins each of the four seasons that James has returned to play and thatís being optimistic. The fact that James is leading this team to 50 win seasons, even in the EC, shows his value. Look at the record and point differentials for the Cavs against opponents without James.

I use to think that James had no business in a discussion with the GOAT. But since heís returned to Cleveland Iíve learned to shut my mouth. Iíve never seen anything like this in my life. Iím confident that if the Phoenix Suns lost Booker and picked up James, kept the same team, theyíd actually make the playoffs in the West next year. James is the most valuable player in the NBA.

Iím curious as well, when you say that James ďchecked outĒ, how do you measure that? Iím pretty sure that what you call a checked out James is still better than 99% of the NBA.

cmellofan15
04-13-2018, 11:21 PM
maybe everyone here is right...there's no value in winning your teams more games. I mean if we set aside last year, Lebron would only have the worst winning percentage for an MVP since Bob McAdoo in Buffalo. Apparently Russell Westbrook's stat chasing has set a new standard for MVP voting. Try as hard as you can to be less efficient, win less games, and rack up more counting stats than the other guy and you are the most valuable! :laugh2:

valade16
04-14-2018, 12:16 AM
I have a record of what the Rockets did without Harden this year.

As for substituting Chris Paul for LeBron James: James hasnít missed any games this season. James and the core group of Cavs didnít play the final three qtrís in the final RS game v. Knicks. The Cavs got beat by by 12. But since James returned to Cleveland in the 2014-15 season, the Cavs have gone 4-20 with a point differential lower than -10 per game. They lose to opponents on average by double digits. They got blown out by 39, 30, 28, for example.

Even with their core group eg Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving in the lineup, the Cavaliers are 4-18 with a negative -192 total point differential. The get run off the floor. Kyrie Irving is a very good player. You mean to tell me that Chris Paul is that much better than Kyrie Irving, to turn the Cavaliers into 14-8 team during that 22 game stretch. Thatís means Paul is worth more than 10 wins over Irving? How is he that much better than Kyrie? The Cavaliers are not a good team. The Cavaliers would struggle to reach 25-30 wins each of the four seasons that James has returned to play and thatís being optimistic. The fact that James is leading this team to 50 win seasons, even in the EC, shows his value. Look at the record and point differentials for the Cavs against opponents without James.

I use to think that James had no business in a discussion with the GOAT. But since heís returned to Cleveland Iíve learned to shut my mouth. Iíve never seen anything like this in my life. Iím confident that if the Phoenix Suns lost Booker and picked up James, kept the same team, theyíd actually make the playoffs in the West next year. James is the most valuable player in the NBA.

Iím curious as well, when you say that James ďchecked outĒ, how do you measure that? Iím pretty sure that what you call a checked out James is still better than 99% of the NBA.

Maybe, but that 1% was James Harden, and that's why he's going to win MVP (you have to admit, you walked into that one lol)

Chronz
04-14-2018, 03:49 AM
To your first point, what are you talking about? Lol. Not sure if you realize that they have not won a title since either of those signed, or what your point there is at all.

To the 2nd point, even with your hilarious caveat of "besides the 20/10 All Star Power Forward, the bench was better", who cares? They were winning games more often than not when Lebron and Love were sitting, and the bench was doing the heavy lifting. You'd hope to be more than treading water with the greatest player on the planet + an All Star if we're going to go around parading him as the MVP. But, the fact is that they weren't. We're not here to give the b2b2 Eastern Conference champs kudos because they out-clutched/lucked their way into beating out their end of the season "expected value" of 43 wins. The reason their expected value is what it is (if you have not put this together), is because good teams have beat the **** out of them, and they have beat the **** out of bad teams. That's why they have so few close games, are sub .500 against teams with a winning record, and have a net +/- just above 0.

They literally won the chip that same season that he signed the contract.

Disagree with your 2nd take, thats just how bad the starters were, those same bench players tore it up to a larger degree with Bron out there too, thats sort of the model the Cavs had early. They have since improved and trashed their bench model at the deadline.

Chronz
04-14-2018, 03:52 AM
That the Cavaliers have fallen short of expectations. Obviously if they turn it on in the playoffs and go to the Finals I will have been underestimating them.

But at the beginning of the season, nobody expected this level of dysfunction and mediocre play for much of the year from them. Whether I agree with the MVP going to someone who is better but only for a small part of the regular season or not, that's what MVP voters look at, and Harden and the Rockets have been great from start to finish.

Harden is absolutely going to win this MVP award.
They exceeded expectations given everything we actually found out about the players, as opposed to projecting the health and availability of the unkown variables.

At the beggining of the season you had less information than you do today, Ill stick to what actually happened

Dont care about the MVP award.

Chronz
04-14-2018, 03:54 AM
I care. They did not exceed expectations. Bron is the established leader of the team. if multiple guys under perform and the team has trouble gelling he takes some of the Heat. Thatís how being a leader works.


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Wouldn't you care more about being wrong tho? You honestly thought IT would return to health to the point where you boasted after a single game. lol, no its not Brons fault that his teammates were hurt or bad for chemistry. He did his job, got the sour apples shipped out and the team improved and given all the turmoil they have actually overachieved. They underachieved last year but thats when Bron and Kyrie coasted, like you said.

Lionel20
04-14-2018, 07:49 AM
Maybe, but that 1% was James Harden, and that's why he's going to win MVP (you have to admit, you walked into that one lol)

I was thinking Anthony Davis.

In January, LeBronís ďcheck outĒ month according to you, Harden missed 7 games, right?

So Harden missed 50% of January, Jamesí worst month. In the one month you seem to hold against James, who was better James or Harden?

IKnowHoops
04-14-2018, 10:47 AM
Didnít Harden have a 60pt triple double this year? If so.../Thread.

IKnowHoops
04-14-2018, 11:07 AM
Iím the biggest Bron fan, and I do believe Bron is much better than Harden, but if only one man can win it, this year, Harden wins. Team record matters and always has. If Brons team was leading the league in wins and he in PER like Harden currently, no way he doesnít win it. Harden is no Lebron, but he deserves it this year...not by as much as some want to make it seem, but Harden won it.

IKnowHoops
04-14-2018, 11:09 AM
maybe everyone here is right...there's no value in winning your teams more games. I mean if we set aside last year, Lebron would only have the worst winning percentage for an MVP since Bob McAdoo in Buffalo. Apparently Russell Westbrook's stat chasing has set a new standard for MVP voting. Try as hard as you can to be less efficient, win less games, and rack up more counting stats than the other guy and you are the most valuable! :laugh2:

Yeah cause Bron is such an inefficient stat stuffer

cmellofan15
04-14-2018, 01:37 PM
Yeah cause Bron is such an inefficient stat stuffer

I wouldn't say so, but you're entitled to your own opinion.

valade16
04-14-2018, 03:49 PM
They exceeded expectations given everything we actually found out about the players, as opposed to projecting the health and availability of the unkown variables.

At the beggining of the season you had less information than you do today, Ill stick to what actually happened
Dont care about the MVP award.

No way did they exceed expectations, not under any circumstances. What actually happened was LeBron took it easy (as he is wont to do in the regular season) and went downright ghost before Cleveland traded for a bunch of new pieces, and then in the last month or so he started playing like LeBron.

I'm not going to say he overachieved because him not playing 100% lowered the expectations of the team and then he exceeded them by playing as good as he's capable of playing.

I can't believe people want to pat LeBron on the back and say "good job buddy" for the year the Cavs just had.

Looking at their schedule, the Cavs went 18-1 for a stretch in November and December. They were cruising right along, then things started to go bad and we look in January and we see LeBron's stats for January were:

23.5 PPG on 22% from 3 and 67% FT, 7.4 APG, 7.3 RPG and a +/- of -8.3.

He basically checked out in January, and that's why the Cavs started to torpedo. They wouldn't have been amazing given everything, but they would have been a lot better than what they were if James hadn't basically stopped trying.

Jamiecballer
04-14-2018, 06:37 PM
No way did they exceed expectations, not under any circumstances. What actually happened was LeBron took it easy (as he is wont to do in the regular season) and went downright ghost before Cleveland traded for a bunch of new pieces, and then in the last month or so he started playing like LeBron.

I'm not going to say he overachieved because him not playing 100% lowered the expectations of the team and then he exceeded them by playing as good as he's capable of playing.

I can't believe people want to pat LeBron on the back and say "good job buddy" for the year the Cavs just had.

Looking at their schedule, the Cavs went 18-1 for a stretch in November and December. They were cruising right along, then things started to go bad and we look in January and we see LeBron's stats for January were:

23.5 PPG on 22% from 3 and 67% FT, 7.4 APG, 7.3 RPG and a +/- of -8.3.

He basically checked out in January, and that's why the Cavs started to torpedo. They wouldn't have been amazing given everything, but they would have been a lot better than what they were if James hadn't basically stopped trying.Money post. I love Lebron but this is the first legitimate beef I have ever had regarding his conduct. I saw him totally check out for an extended period

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ewing
04-14-2018, 07:20 PM
Wouldn't you care more about being wrong tho? You honestly thought IT would return to health to the point where you boasted after a single game. lol, no its not Brons fault that his teammates were hurt or bad for chemistry. He did his job, got the sour apples shipped out and the team improved and given all the turmoil they have actually overachieved. They underachieved last year but thats when Bron and Kyrie coasted, like you said.

IT will be back. James Harden will be MVP. Facts, Chronz


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JordansBulls
04-14-2018, 10:22 PM
No you don't give a 5th mvp to a player when they didn't have the best stats by a clear margin on the season or the best record in the league. No other player after winning a 4th or 5th MVP won it without the best record in the league.

Harden led the league in PER, WS, WS/PER 48 minutes, Box Plus/Minus, PPG and beat Lebron both games head to head and led franchise to best record in it's history and finished ahead of G.S as well while Lebron was the 4th seed in the East.

Chronz
04-15-2018, 04:07 PM
No way did they exceed expectations, not under any circumstances. What actually happened was LeBron took it easy (as he is wont to do in the regular season) and went downright ghost before Cleveland traded for a bunch of new pieces, and then in the last month or so he started playing like LeBron.

I'm not going to say he overachieved because him not playing 100% lowered the expectations of the team and then he exceeded them by playing as good as he's capable of playing.

I can't believe people want to pat LeBron on the back and say "good job buddy" for the year the Cavs just had.

Looking at their schedule, the Cavs went 18-1 for a stretch in November and December. They were cruising right along, then things started to go bad and we look in January and we see LeBron's stats for January were:

23.5 PPG on 22% from 3 and 67% FT, 7.4 APG, 7.3 RPG and a +/- of -8.3.

He basically checked out in January, and that's why the Cavs started to torpedo. They wouldn't have been amazing given everything, but they would have been a lot better than what they were if James hadn't basically stopped trying.

By literally every barometer they overachieved and one player posted a ridiculously clutch season in order to do so. He actually played alot harder than I've seen in years past, it actually had to with why they overachieved this year. Bron should be at the stage he can coast far more but plenty analysts and exec's have commented on his load and effort level this year. His bad stretch doesn't offset the massive gains he produced in the entirety. It's like you want me to ignore the entire pie here lol.


Playing like lebron greatly undersells what he did. Dude basically gave more playoff level effort and production far more than he had in years, again plenty agreed about this on balance.

You can say what you want, I see no proof of anything. So bron has to go 100% in a league where everyone coasts, to have value? Facts are, brons increased effort level is why they overachieved this regular season compared to their talent level and effort of years past.

Why wouldn't we pat the guy for a superior year than the year prior given his age and team inconsistencies? You want him kicked off all nba ot something lmao, so vague here

I know the record, find me a single barometer or analysts who agrees with your small sample over the complete data set....

Chronz
04-15-2018, 04:13 PM
Money post. I love Lebron but this is the first legitimate beef I have ever had regarding his conduct. I saw him totally check out for an extended period

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He used to take weeks off entirely, this time he gavethe newguys a chance and he lost trustin them. He's never given a regular season this amount of effort but let's ignore that for some reason.

Legit beef? Lmao, what does bron owe you again?

Chronz
04-15-2018, 04:14 PM
IT will be back. James Harden will be MVP. Facts, Chronz


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He wasn't here this year. Yeah and I'll be 500 bucks richer, so wat? Facts

valade16
04-15-2018, 05:29 PM
By literally every barometer they overachieved and one player posted a ridiculously clutch season in order to do so. He actually played alot harder than I've seen in years past, it actually had to with why they overachieved this year. Bron should be at the stage he can coast far more but plenty analysts and exec's have commented on his load and effort level this year. His bad stretch doesn't offset the massive gains he produced in the entirety. It's like you want me to ignore the entire pie here lol.

Playing like lebron greatly undersells what he did. Dude basically gave more playoff level effort and production far more than he had in years, again plenty agreed about this on balance.

You can say what you want, I see no proof of anything. So bron has to go 100% in a league where everyone coasts, to have value? Facts are, brons increased effort level is why they overachieved this regular season compared to their talent level and effort of years past.

Why wouldn't we pat the guy for a superior year than the year prior given his age and team inconsistencies? You want him kicked off all nba ot something lmao, so vague here

I know the record, find me a single barometer or analysts who agrees with your small sample over the complete data set....

First Bolded: We've already been over this. The Cavs did not overachieve based on their preseason expectations. So right there that's one barometer they didn't overachieve, and that's a massive barometer when it comes to MVP voting (fair or not).

Second Bolded: He should be at the stage where he can coast in the regular season. My point is, if you coast in the regular season, you aren't going to win MVP. You don't get the MVP because if you wanted to, you could win it. You win it for actually being the most impactful for the entire regular season.

Third Bolded: Certainly not, but he does have to give 100% if he wants to be MVP.

Fourth Bolded: Certainly not, I'm simply saying he was not MVP this year.

Fifth Bolded: That he coasted before the trade deadline? That is something you're actually disputing?


I get your point: taken in totality he did good. Ok, cool. But he wasn't MVP good in totality. James Harden doesn't have any such stretch where he checked out or played bad. James played as good as Harden the last 2 months of the season? OK cool. Harden played that good longer.

valade16
04-15-2018, 05:31 PM
He used to take weeks off entirely, this time he gavethe newguys a chance and he lost trustin them. He's never given a regular season this amount of effort but let's ignore that for some reason.

Legit beef? Lmao, what does bron owe you again?

And he never had to because he never checked out for a month straight before. The entire reason he had to try so hard to end the season was because of how hard he didn't try before then.

Jamiecballer
04-15-2018, 05:49 PM
He used to take weeks off entirely, this time he gavethe newguys a chance and he lost trustin them. He's never given a regular season this amount of effort but let's ignore that for some reason.

Legit beef? Lmao, what does bron owe you again?

Did you see his numbers during that stretch in January, I mean the ones Valade literally just posted? He had a Vince-Carter-to-Jersey transformation the day after the trade deadline, made his total apathy the weeks leading up to the deadline incredibly apparent. Hell, credible Cav fans on this site were actually suggesting he was finally declining. Honestly no, I've never seen him play for a stretch like that and I don't believe you have either.

And Lebron doesn't owe me anything, maybe i used the wrong word if you got that impression. People have criticized Lebron for this and that, I'm just saying that for me personally, the only time I've ever disliked anything he did or said or felt like it reflected poorly on him was watching that stretch because again, I saw something similar even if the magnitude was different -- up close when Carter played his final stretch in TO.

Chronz
04-16-2018, 12:11 PM
First Bolded: We've already been over this. The Cavs did not overachieve based on their preseason expectations. So right there that's one barometer they didn't overachieve, and that's a massive barometer when it comes to MVP voting (fair or not).

Second Bolded: He should be at the stage where he can coast in the regular season. My point is, if you coast in the regular season, you aren't going to win MVP. You don't get the MVP because if you wanted to, you could win it. You win it for actually being the most impactful for the entire regular season.

Third Bolded: Certainly not, but he does have to give 100% if he wants to be MVP.

Fourth Bolded: Certainly not, I'm simply saying he was not MVP this year.

Fifth Bolded: That he coasted before the trade deadline? That is something you're actually disputing?


I get your point: taken in totality he did good. Ok, cool. But he wasn't MVP good in totality. James Harden doesn't have any such stretch where he checked out or played bad. James played as good as Harden the last 2 months of the season? OK cool. Harden played that good longer.
That's not a barometer that's a projection, one with less information than you have in hindsight.

Already explained I don't give a **** about the award.

So then why can't we pat the guy on the back for overachieving again.

F yeah I dispute that. In its entirety he was putting forth more effort than most stars and definitely more than seasons past.

He was totally mvp good, harden might have been better but your nit picking at that point. Last 2 months of the season? Lmao , stop the straws. Harden coasted too, he just has more of a skill based game and is afforded the luxury of another mvp caliber player. Bron definitely shouldered the greater load this year, that much is without question. You can highlight whatever stretch you want, I'm taking the entire sample every time. So focus on that

tredigs
04-16-2018, 12:20 PM
That's not a barometer that's a projection, one with less information than you have in hindsight.

Already explained I don't give a **** about the award.

So then why can't we pat the guy on the back for overachieving again.

F yeah I dispute that. In its entirety he was putting forth more effort than most stars and definitely more than seasons past.

He was totally mvp good, harden might have been better but your nit picking at that point. Last 2 months of the season? Lmao , stop the straws. Harden coasted too, he just has more of a skill based game and is afforded the luxury of another mvp caliber player. Bron definitely shouldered the greater load this year, that much is without question. You can highlight whatever stretch you want, I'm taking the entire sample every time. So focus on that

Golf clap for shouldering the greater load to far inferior heights.

It's not nitpicking to say Harden was better. He simply was. And never gave up on the team at any point of the season. Hence why he will rightfully be the clear MVP.

valade16
04-16-2018, 12:24 PM
That's not a barometer that's a projection, one with less information than you have in hindsight.

Already explained I don't give a **** about the award.

So then why can't we pat the guy on the back for overachieving again.

F yeah I dispute that. In its entirety he was putting forth more effort than most stars and definitely more than seasons past.

He was totally mvp good, harden might have been better but your nit picking at that point. Last 2 months of the season? Lmao , stop the straws. Harden coasted too, he just has more of a skill based game and is afforded the luxury of another mvp caliber player. Bron definitely shouldered the greater load this year, that much is without question. You can highlight whatever stretch you want, I'm taking the entire sample every time. So focus on that

First Bolded: How the heck did they overachieve? They are a middling team in a weak East who just got crushed Game 1, with LeBron James. They overachieved because their team was a mess before the trade deadline? Again, that "mess" of a team went 18-1 at one point, then LeBron starts playing like poop and they do bad and suddenly the team is trash?

Second Bolded: In it's entirety is a nice way of glossing over an entire month of games where he completely checked out. Again, the reason he had to work so hard "in entirety" is because he was so lazy for that month. If I'm racing Usain Bolt and he is jogging behind me to start the race and then at the end he runs as fast as he can to beat me, I'm not going to give him praise for trying so hard at the end because had he tried even a little bit at the beginning, he would have beaten me without the need to run so hard at the end.

Third Bolded: If Harden also coasted then he is the clear MVP because he still outplayed LeBron even while coasting. If that is truly the case, we may have to start asking if Harden is simply the better player than LeBron at this point if he can just coast and outplay him. As for having another MVP player, sure that helps, but CP3 missed a lot of time and Harden actually played better with him out so that excuse doesn't really hold true.

LeBron's season can be summed up thusly: LeBron stopped trying in January and as a result had to try really hard in February and March.

Chronz
04-16-2018, 12:25 PM
And he never had to because he never checked out for a month straight before. The entire reason he had to try so hard to end the season was because of how hard he didn't try before then.

Sure he has, you must not remember the criticism of him early, more recently he's literally taken 2 week vacations to Miami after a bad start to the season. That's inherently less valuable. Given his fluke rule year (look it up if you've never heard the term) given his insane clutch ratings on a team far exceeding its expected win loss% (based on actual barometers) and given the turmoil and overall lack of talent, it's easy to see why he's being praised for the YEAR. That definitely had more to do with it than you focusing on av small portion of the year.

Even if we were to pretend you had a point, it STILL wouldn't change the increase in effort level and an mvp caliber year. Anthony Davis didn't gohard from start to finish. Dame can go as hard as he wants heain't onthat level. So who's left for you to help praise on? Only harden gets love this year or. what?

Chronz
04-16-2018, 12:28 PM
Golf clap for shouldering the greater load to far inferior heights.

It's not nitpicking to say Harden was better. He simply was. And never gave up on the team at any point of the season. Hence why he will rightfully be the clear MVP.
They literally won 1 less game. Far greater load, similar win loss % would be far more honest of a depiction.

Why would he give up on a team like this? It ain't the playoffs yet for him to quit. Bron losing confidence in a fractured unit led to changesand on balance, led to a superior yearfrom him. So yeah golf claps for sure

valade16
04-16-2018, 12:32 PM
Sure he has, you must not remember the criticism of him early, more recently he's literally taken 2 week vacations to Miami after a bad start to the season. That's inherently less valuable. Given his fluke rule year (look it up if you've never heard the term) given his insane clutch ratings on a team far exceeding its expected win loss% (based on actual barometers) and given the turmoil and overall lack of talent, it's easy to see why he's being praised for the YEAR. That definitely had more to do with it than you focusing on av small portion of the year.

Even if we were to pretend you had a point, it STILL wouldn't change the increase in effort level and an mvp caliber year. Anthony Davis didn't gohard from start to finish. Dame can go as hard as he wants heain't onthat level. So who's left for you to help praise on? Only harden gets love this year or. what?

An MVP caliber year in a vacuum, but it was not an MVP caliber year this year because Harden's year completely outclassed LeBron.

As for heaping praise? Lillard deserves more praise than James for the year he had, AD definitely does. Neither showed a lack of effort for an entire month or demonstrated such a lack of leadership the entire team got bombed at the trade deadline.

valade16
04-16-2018, 12:34 PM
They literally won 1 less game. Far greater load, similar win loss % would be far more honest of a depiction.

Why would he give up on a team like this? It ain't the playoffs yet for him to quit. Bron losing confidence in a fractured unit led to changesand on balance, led to a superior yearfrom him. So yeah golf claps for sure

I don't know, why don't you ask him why he gave up on his team before the deadline? Why don't you ask him why he seems to have given up on them G1?

Why not ask him why he gave up on the Cavs the first time in the playoffs? Why not ask him why he gave up on the Heat vs the Mavs?

As great as he is, he has a troubling trend of simply giving up when things aren't going his way.

tredigs
04-16-2018, 12:36 PM
They literally won 1 less game. Far greater load, similar win loss % would be far more honest of a depiction.

Why would he give up on a team like this? It ain't the playoffs yet for him to quit. Bron losing confidence in a fractured unit led to changesand on balance, led to a superior yearfrom him. So yeah golf claps for sure
1 less game? I thought you were talking about Harden and LeBron. Nevermind.

Chronz
04-16-2018, 12:36 PM
First Bolded: How the heck did they overachieve? They are a middling team in a weak East who just got crushed Game 1, with LeBron James. They overachieved because their team was a mess before the trade deadline? Again, that "mess" of a team went 18-1 at one point, then LeBron starts playing like poop and they do bad and suddenly the team is trash?

Second Bolded: In it's entirety is a nice way of glossing over an entire month of games where he completely checked out. Again, the reason he had to work so hard "in entirety" is because he was so lazy for that month. If I'm racing Usain Bolt and he is jogging behind me to start the race and then at the end he runs as fast as he can to beat me, I'm not going to give him praise for trying so hard at the end because had he tried even a little bit at the beginning, he would have beaten me without the need to run so hard at the end.

Third Bolded: If Harden also coasted then he is the clear MVP because he still outplayed LeBron even while coasting. If that is truly the case, we may have to start asking if Harden is simply the better player than LeBron at this point if he can just coast and outplay him. As for having another MVP player, sure that helps, but CP3 missed a lot of time and Harden actually played better with him out so that excuse doesn't really hold true.

LeBron's season can be summed up thusly: LeBron stopped trying in January and as a result had to try really hard in February and March.

They overachieved for all the reasons i cited, being a middling team doesn't dq that. You keep focusingon stretches when I have the entire season worth of information. Why would i give a **** about such a simplistic take?

In its entirety means I account for that in my evaluation of an ENTIRE SEASON. If Usain beat you despite cramping up midway, having to drink some Gatorade, stretching out and then sprinting, I'd say he's WAY faster than you at his peak and even with you going full bore, couldn't even separate yourself from him. On balance, I'd care about who won the race. Harden won the mvp, bron still had a ridiculously good season on balance.

You can ask what you want, I have different standards than you and find the line of questioning one sided. Certain play styles lend themselves more to coasting , Hakeem and shaq for instance, had differentways of cruising through the regular season. Harden and the team played about the same level as last year without cp3 and the improvement of his cast outside cp3 is evident.

ewing
04-16-2018, 12:39 PM
An MVP caliber year in a vacuum, but it was not an MVP caliber year this year because Harden's year completely outclassed LeBron.

As for heaping praise? Lillard deserves more praise than James for the year he had, AD definitely does. Neither showed a lack of effort for an entire month or demonstrated such a lack of leadership the entire team got bombed at the trade deadline.

Those terrible players that got dealt played pretty well until James started tanking. The bench was winning games to start the year. They sucked when LeBron broke the team. Then they traded everyone, according to people here got better guys back but not guys that are actually helping Bron bc the team finishing well was solely bc of his greatness. What donít you understand?


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Chronz
04-16-2018, 12:40 PM
An MVP caliber year in a vacuum, but it was not an MVP caliber year this year because Harden's year completely outclassed LeBron.

As for heaping praise? Lillard deserves more praise than James for the year he had, AD definitely does. Neither showed a lack of effort for an entire month or demonstrated such a lack of leadership the entire team got bombed at the trade deadline.
Maybe, I disagree, I think harden was slightly better on balance.

I don't praise players for interior play, why doyou? AD definitely coasted and didn't play as well all year imo, if he coasted more or less is up to you but he's at least inthe discussion, unlike dame.

Lack of leadership? Lmao, he lost faith in bad players andgot them shipped out for the betterment of the TEAM. That's nothing to me sowe're definitely not gonnasee eye to eye onthis. I think a lack of leadership would be to ignore obvious deficiencies andnot taking a stand at all

Chronz
04-16-2018, 12:41 PM
I don't know, why don't you ask him why he gave up on his team before the deadline? Why don't you ask him why he seems to have given up on them G1?

Why not ask him why he gave up on the Cavs the first time in the playoffs? Why not ask him why he gave up on the Heat vs the Mavs?

As great as he is, he has a troubling trend of simply giving up when things aren't going his way.
I was asking thatof harden.

Why would I ask him something you believe? Lmao.

valade16
04-16-2018, 12:45 PM
They overachieved for all the reasons i cited, being a middling team doesn't dq that. You keep focusing on stretches when I have the entire season worth of information. Why would I give a **** about such a simplistic take?

In its entirety means I account for that in my evaluation of an ENTIRE SEASON. If Usain beat you despite cramping up midway, having to drink some Gatorade, stretching out and then sprinting, I'd say he's WAY faster than you at his peak and even with you going full bore, couldn't even separate yourself from him. On balance, I'd care about who won the race. Harden won the mvp, bron still had a ridiculously good season on balance.

You can ask what you want, I have different standards than you and find the line of questioning one sided. Certain play styles lend themselves more to coasting , Hakeem and shaq for instance, had different ways of cruising through the regular season. Harden and the team played about the same level as last year without cp3 and the improvement of his cast outside cp3 is evident.

Because you saying you're focusing on the entire season is just an excuse to not judge what he did in January. The simplistic take here is saying he was amazing without once addressing that he flat out quit on his team. That is a major transgression and you're treating it with all the seriousness of showing up late to a practice or something.

Judge the entire year. He played amazing for parts of the year and flat out quit for another part. Those don't balance out to be a "good job". Those balance out to be a "good job rectifying your mistake".

But Usain Bolt (or in this instance LeBron James) didn't cramp up, the more apt description would be he sat down. You are trying to suggest his complete shutdown was not his fault, which is disingenuous. The only person responsible for LeBron's terribly month is LeBron.

Hakeem and Shaq did cruise for many seasons, and they each only won 1 MVP. And that's my point. If you want to cruise control the regular season, as LeBron does, that's fine. But don't expect to be given the MVP because "had you tried you would have won it". That's not how MVPs work. You have to earn it every year.

LeBron played amazing down the stretch, he didn't get to coast like he has in years past. He still doesn't deserve MVP. And there are many arguing he does. They're stupid. I'm not going to give him the MVP on the basis that "had he tried he would have won it" anymore than a college is going to give Stephen Hawking an A in a math class because "had he taken it he would have passed". You still have to actually earn it, whether you're capable of doing so or not.