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View Full Version : LBJ: most consecutive games with doubl digits: 867



JasonJohnHorn
03-30-2018, 08:49 PM
Another milestone.

LBJ sets the record for most consecutive double-digit games at 867 (and counting).

Thoughts?

More-Than-Most
03-30-2018, 09:15 PM
inb4 this isnt important much like triple/doubles because -haters-.

LOb0
03-30-2018, 09:23 PM
I like how no one says this is a regular season stat because he had an 8 point finals game in 2011.


I'd like to know the actual stat of all time double figures in a row.

JasonJohnHorn
03-30-2018, 09:53 PM
I like how no one says this is a regular season stat because he had an 8 point finals game in 2011.


I'd like to know the actual stat of all time double figures in a row.

Nobody said it? Maybe you didn't notice, but the second commenter actually pointed this out ;-)

KG2TB
03-31-2018, 12:10 AM
Growing up a die hard Bulls and Jordan fan and rooting for the Bulls for over 25 years, I think when LeBron hangs it up and the numbers he’ll have, combined with what he’s already done, he will earn the title of goat. Honestly, it’s to the point where there’s no wrong answer between the two, but LeBron’s impact on every facet of the game and to the team, both tangibly and intangibly, is the greatest I’ve seen before.

tredigs
03-31-2018, 12:36 AM
inb4 this isnt important much like triple/doubles because -haters-.

Was I called?

Lol, no, this isn't important. At all. The number of people here who knew this record yesterday are... Zero. He's consistent and has a lot of longevity. Honestly surprised it took him until 07 to start this though. I'd he surprised if MJ had a game in his career he didn't put up 10 outside of a random terrible rookie game. Still impressive, just meaningless.

FlashBolt
03-31-2018, 05:35 AM
it's ten points... 867 games means nothing. if he scored 9 points in one game, is it that much worse? nope. arbitrary stat that ESPN likes to throw around to generate headlines.

archdevil84
03-31-2018, 08:01 AM
he also scored only 8 points vs the pacers one time in the playoffs i believe

prodigy
03-31-2018, 09:11 AM
It shows how consistent he has been throughout a very long career. He also has more 50pt games then he does single digit games. It shows durability for not leaving games early, playing through sickness etc...

Both MJ and Lebron should be very proud of this stat. it shows they battle every single game and congrats to both men for a very tough milestone.

prodigy
03-31-2018, 09:15 AM
it's ten points... 867 games means nothing. if he scored 9 points in one game, is it that much worse? nope. arbitrary stat that ESPN likes to throw around to generate headlines.

I agree its a stat that news people kinda make up. But it still shows how consistent these guys are. thats why they are both considered top 2 players ever. I mean theres a reason its them 2 at the top of this list.

If 867 games mean nothing why isn't everyone doing it?

tredigs
03-31-2018, 10:28 AM
This is like breaking the hallowed record for most consecutive games with 5+ rebounds, or 3+ assists. The fact that some buy into ESPN's random hype of completely arbitrary thresholds that nobody ever cared to know existed is pretty funny and interesting to see though.

hallzi43
03-31-2018, 02:01 PM
Was I called?

Lol, no, this isn't important. At all. The number of people here who knew this record yesterday are... Zero. He's consistent and has a lot of longevity. Honestly surprised it took him until 07 to start this though. I'd he surprised if MJ had a game in his career he didn't put up 10 outside of a random terrible rookie game. Still impressive, just meaningless.

Pretty sure I seen something on twitter last night that put up the Jordan stat where he only had 1 game in his entire career with the Bulls where he had less than 10 points. (Wanna say it was just a Bulls stat and had nothing to do with Wizards but I could be wrong)

prodigy
03-31-2018, 02:11 PM
This is like breaking the hallowed record for most consecutive games with 5+ rebounds, or 3+ assists. The fact that some buy into ESPN's random hype of completely arbitrary thresholds that nobody ever cared to know existed is pretty funny and interesting to see though.

Then why isn't everyone doing this? why is James Harden second at 259? wheres Curry, Durant, Melo, Westbrook etc...

I Do think its a weird stat to keep but its pretty impressive. Funny that MJ and Lebron are at the top of this list and are considered the best this game has ever seen.

hallzi43
03-31-2018, 02:18 PM
Then why isn't everyone doing this? why is James Harden second at 259? wheres Curry, Durant, Melo, Westbrook etc...

I Do think its a weird stat to keep but its pretty impressive. Funny that MJ and Lebron are at the top of this list and are considered the best this game has ever seen.

I definitely think the stat itself is impressive. But the way it is conveyed makes it sort of arbitrary considering he was held to 8 points in a playoff game during said streak.

When it is all said and done and Lebron hangs it up. This will be a stat that should be turned into % of career reaching double digits rather than a streak.

prodigy
03-31-2018, 02:25 PM
I definitely think the stat itself is impressive. But the way it is conveyed makes it sort of arbitrary considering he was held to 8 points in a playoff game during said streak.

When it is all said and done and Lebron hangs it up. This will be a stat that should be turned into % of career reaching double digits rather than a streak.

The playoffs and regular season are completely different, i don't think any stats are combined i could be wrong but not sure. Lebron had a tough series against the mavs. I mean with the number of early exits MJ has in the postseason im sure every game wasn't great for him. But he gets a free pass. Lebron takes blame head on for the Mavs series. it will haunt him. But shouldn't be the death of him.

Jeffy25
03-31-2018, 02:47 PM
The playoffs and regular season are completely different, i don't think any stats are combined i could be wrong but not sure. Lebron had a tough series against the mavs. I mean with the number of early exits MJ has in the postseason im sure every game wasn't great for him. But he gets a free pass. Lebron takes blame head on for the Mavs series. it will haunt him. But shouldn't be the death of him.

The thing with Jordan is that he never really had a rough series, just aspects of his series that weren't that great (like maybe a poor 3 point shooting series). He just kept going further and further every year until he won, then he kept winning.

That's what people love.

Bron doesn't have that develop into the great, and then walking away as the greatest, as a narrative that Jordan has.

That Mavs series will haunt him because he just didn't show up. And he should have been there to dominant. I don't know that Jordan ever just didn't dominate a series he was going to play in. He maybe fell short of what he could have done a few times, but that's really it.

tredigs
03-31-2018, 03:52 PM
Then why isn't everyone doing this? why is James Harden second at 259? wheres Curry, Durant, Melo, Westbrook etc...

I Do think its a weird stat to keep but its pretty impressive. Funny that MJ and Lebron are at the top of this list and are considered the best this game has ever seen.

There's a million stats out there being broken every day. It is not to say that the random numbers they made up are not impressive, it's more of, "who gives a ****?". Nobody ever cared to know this was a tracked thing 5 days ago. LeBron obviously bought in full bore and stopped the game to save the game ball though, which I found particularly hilarious and fitting (as he pumps himself up for an MVP award that he has absolutely no business being in the running of, but is too self absorbed to acknowledge that).

hallzi43
03-31-2018, 03:54 PM
The playoffs and regular season are completely different, i don't think any stats are combined i could be wrong but not sure. Lebron had a tough series against the mavs. I mean with the number of early exits MJ has in the postseason im sure every game wasn't great for him. But he gets a free pass. Lebron takes blame head on for the Mavs series. it will haunt him. But shouldn't be the death of him.

MJ scored under 20 just 6 times in the playoffs. His lowest scoring output was 15.

hallzi43
03-31-2018, 03:57 PM
And when talking about a scoring streak as arbitrary as this, why is it completely different? Only because it doesn't set a good narrative.

hallzi43
03-31-2018, 04:04 PM
Some funny things:

Jordan's lone 8 point output for the Bulls was in his second season on the road against the Cleveland Cavs.

Lebron scored under 10 points 5 times in his first season. Once in his second season if we are including the game he left with injury.

ewing
03-31-2018, 04:08 PM
MJ scored under 20 just 6 times in the playoffs. His lowest scoring output was 15.

Really I find that very surprising are you sure he was in the teens 6 times? I am going have look them up. Here an interesting article about MJ and Bron’s poor shooting nights in the playoffs

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-lebron-james-michael-jordan-stats-comparison-cavs-bulls-eastern-conference-finals/1es0xy3jmguu71mx82wmudwlr8


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hallzi43
03-31-2018, 04:14 PM
Really I find that very surprising are you sure he was in the teens 6 times? I am going have look them up. Here an interesting article about MJ and Bron’s poor shooting nights in the playoffs

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-lebron-james-michael-jordan-stats-comparison-cavs-bulls-eastern-conference-finals/1es0xy3jmguu71mx82wmudwlr8


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I looked up every single game log from all his seasons with the Bulls.

http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/game_by_game.htm

Jeffy25
03-31-2018, 04:17 PM
Some funny things:

Jordan's lone 8 point output for the Bulls was in his second season on the road against the Cleveland Cavs.

Lebron scored under 10 points 5 times in his first season. Once in his second season if we are including the game he left with injury.

When he should have been in college ;)

ewing
03-31-2018, 05:36 PM
I looked up every single game log from all his seasons with the Bulls.

http://www.michaeljordansworld.com/game_by_game.htm

I didn’t see one with everything on one page I got to 95 and he was at 3 so I guess there were 3 more. One was a total blowout. I was surprised bc on his worst shooting nights he topped 20 bc he got to the line. His lowest scoring nights actually werent his worst shooting nights. Also amazing looking at the game logs how routinely he got 40 in the playoffs


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europagnpilgrim
03-31-2018, 07:53 PM
What's even more impressive than this is me calling him one of the best/most dominant players ever after the conclusion of his 04' rookie yr.

15yrs later and most are trying to figure out who is the ''greatest'', Jordan or Kareem or Wilt or Russell or Bron etc., my streak is way more impressive for calling it like I see it, the game film/eyes don't lie

Lebron has always masked his scoring ability(lowkey loves to score) with his passing, his lone scoring title proves it, he has never won an assist title, and most say he is a better passer than scorer, to me he is a scorer who is a super willing passer, AI was the same smaller version

JasonJohnHorn
03-31-2018, 08:46 PM
This is like breaking the hallowed record for most consecutive games with 5+ rebounds, or 3+ assists. The fact that some buy into ESPN's random hype of completely arbitrary thresholds that nobody ever cared to know existed is pretty funny and interesting to see though.

I agree that the level is arbitrary, but it does speak to a certain level of consistency. Also... I don't think this is a ESPN thing; I think it's a sports-fan thing.

I mean.. what's the big deal about a triple-double? Why not a triple dozen? Why not 11/11/11? Triple doubles and double doubes have been around for a long time.

But yes... there is a degree of arbitrariness to this.

ewing
03-31-2018, 08:59 PM
Arbitrary but still impressive


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JasonJohnHorn
04-01-2018, 10:55 AM
Some funny things:

Jordan's lone 8 point output for the Bulls was in his second season on the road against the Cleveland Cavs.

Lebron scored under 10 points 5 times in his first season. Once in his second season if we are including the game he left with injury.

Yeah.... but LBJ was 19; MJ was 21.

I guess we'd have to see how many single-digit games LBJ had since 21 onward.

I don't think that comparison would be any more fair than the one you are suggesting, mind you; I'm merely trying to point out that there is some context to consider here.

LBJ's 'youngest player to...' records are impressive, but at the same time, he has an advantage over guys like Hakeem, Wilt, and MJ in that he came in much younger than them, so he had between 2-4 seasons more.

In the same light, it is a little unfair to hold his rookie season to the same standard as a guy who was 2-4 years older as a rookie. Just as it would be unfair to compare LBJ's season at 21 to Jordan's season at 21 because LBJ was already a 2-year vet by that time, where as another guy had no experience in the league whatsoever.

Plus you have the eras to consider.

Both are amazing and both have a clear place among the greatest to ever play the game.


As somebody who grew up during Jordan's hey day, I can assure you there were people who thought saying Jordan was better than Wilt was just as silly. The difference was that Bird and Magic and Dr. J had made the leauge so popular, and when Jordan came in, he took it to another level. So there were more people watching the NBA during Jordan's time than had ever watched the sport before, and so there were millions of people saying MJ was the best, and only thousands saying Wilt was, because so few people watched it back then.

Now, we have all the old school dude who watched Jordan, and there are many many many, defending theri guy (just like Wilt had his guys defending him), the only difference is that Jordan has not only an effectively branded mythos around him that appeals to the current generation, but also all his old school fans.

LBJ is also playing in the era where there were guys before him making a case (Kobe, Shaq, TD) and guys during his era making a case (Curry, KD, and to a lesser extent Harden with other guys like Westy putting up crazy stats). So there is more choices than when Jordan was playing.


Were the two players to switch eras and teams, we'd see the same conversation going in reverse.

BoilermakerD
04-01-2018, 12:48 PM
Growing up a die hard Bulls and Jordan fan and rooting for the Bulls for over 25 years, I think when LeBron hangs it up and the numbers he’ll have, combined with what he’s already done, he will earn the title of goat. Honestly, it’s to the point where there’s no wrong answer between the two, but LeBron’s impact on every facet of the game and to the team, both tangibly and intangibly, is the greatest I’ve seen before.

He hasn’t won the championships. And here’s the angle no one talks about.

They say “Jordan had the players, when Lebron has, he’s won too.”

Except he didn’t in 2011 and 2014.

And no one ever takes a closer look and asks, “ok, well, how poorly did the play when they LOST? How much can you pin a series loss on Michael Jordan or Lebron James?”

Show me a series loss where Michael Jordan:

1) shot 35.6%

2) averaged 17.8 PPG for a series

When the Cavs, Heat or Lakers lost, you can point to statistical indictments of James and Bryant.

When the Bulls lost, Jordan played well, but Pippen either wasn’t on the team or hadn’t grown up yet.

And then there was the one year he came back from baseball and still played well against the Magic, but lost.

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2018, 01:25 PM
Yeah.... but LBJ was 19; MJ was 21.

I guess we'd have to see how many single-digit games LBJ had since 21 onward.

I don't think that comparison would be any more fair than the one you are suggesting, mind you; I'm merely trying to point out that there is some context to consider here.

LBJ's 'youngest player to...' records are impressive, but at the same time, he has an advantage over guys like Hakeem, Wilt, and MJ in that he came in much younger than them, so he had between 2-4 seasons more.

In the same light, it is a little unfair to hold his rookie season to the same standard as a guy who was 2-4 years older as a rookie. Just as it would be unfair to compare LBJ's season at 21 to Jordan's season at 21 because LBJ was already a 2-year vet by that time, where as another guy had no experience in the league whatsoever.

Plus you have the eras to consider.

Both are amazing and both have a clear place among the greatest to ever play the game.


As somebody who grew up during Jordan's hey day, I can assure you there were people who thought saying Jordan was better than Wilt was just as silly. The difference was that Bird and Magic and Dr. J had made the leauge so popular, and when Jordan came in, he took it to another level. So there were more people watching the NBA during Jordan's time than had ever watched the sport before, and so there were millions of people saying MJ was the best, and only thousands saying Wilt was, because so few people watched it back then.

Now, we have all the old school dude who watched Jordan, and there are many many many, defending theri guy (just like Wilt had his guys defending him), the only difference is that Jordan has not only an effectively branded mythos around him that appeals to the current generation, but also all his old school fans.

LBJ is also playing in the era where there were guys before him making a case (Kobe, Shaq, TD) and guys during his era making a case (Curry, KD, and to a lesser extent Harden with other guys like Westy putting up crazy stats). So there is more choices than when Jordan was playing.


Were the two players to switch eras and teams, we'd see the same conversation going in reverse. Bron at 19 was physically(skill/man up wise) as imposing as any 21yr old would be outside of Alcindor/Wilt/AI/Oscar/Magic/Shaq and a handful and a half of others who have came through

Scoring is not what Lebron is as was Jordan but Lebron love to score as much as Jordan loved to pass, when necessary, and Lebron scoring has been out of necessity since day 1, pretty much, Jordan proved he could pass by avg 8apg for a season and had a 11apg in I think 91 Finals

that's why I have both in my circle, guys who can do both equally at any given moment are better than guys who just only assist hunt or just shot jack with no purpose behind it, plus I watch for players who over perform in a contract year but were just serviceable prior, think M Gasol and others of that ilk.

I could care less or not where people rank other players but the thing is just make sure you are comparing players who deserved to be compared and not because you like this player better or didn't like this about such player, that's what happens on here when actually talking about who was the most dominant/best of their era and where they should be placed all time

people love ranking developing players higher than they should be, the best most dominant players of all time in every sport are usually that from day 1, it doesn't take until year 5 to figure it out, those are for developing players turned all star, good stories to inspire others for most part

for instance lets not compare players who assist hunt vs players who can do both equally, score and assist

FlashBolt
04-01-2018, 08:46 PM
I agree that the level is arbitrary, but it does speak to a certain level of consistency. Also... I don't think this is a ESPN thing; I think it's a sports-fan thing.

I mean.. what's the big deal about a triple-double? Why not a triple dozen? Why not 11/11/11? Triple doubles and double doubes have been around for a long time.

But yes... there is a degree of arbitrariness to this.

The consistency is there without or without the ten points, though. It's like the, "TT never missed a game for like five NBA seasons." It's just an arbitrary stat because the guy honestly doesn't do much out there. It's why DeAndre also had that same streak going on. Those two didn't miss games because their role is to grab rebounds, run across the floor, set picks, and dunk. There is not a lot of strain in what they do. These arbitrary stats are fun but really, what does it really prove? If LeBron had never scored under ten points in his NBA career, would we think of him in a higher regard as a player? I don't think it even matters. No one remembered what the streak was until ESPN wanted some new headlines since NFL/MLB are over.

ewing
04-02-2018, 11:01 AM
Should there be an asterisk next to this since LeBron sits games to rest?


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Vee-Rex
04-02-2018, 11:25 AM
Should there be an asterisk next to this since LeBron sits games to rest?


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He has played every game this year and he's still having an incredible year, so it's not like he couldn't still have this record if he didn't sit.

ewing
04-02-2018, 11:54 AM
He has played every game this year and he's still having an incredible year, so it's not like he couldn't still have this record if he didn't sit.

Idk seems to be contrary to what makes the streak impressive


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BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 01:01 PM
To me these longevity records don’t mean anything. And they wouldn’t if Jordan had never skipped seasons and just played till 40 like he did.

This whole thing is ramping up to Kobe v. Jordan level stupidity, though to be fair, Lebron makes a much better case than Kobe ever did.

People need to realize this manufactured consent. This will always happen.. just as favorable comparisons were drawn to Dirk over Bird early in his career.

Why? Because the right people make money when everyone is convinced that here and now is the only place and time to be ... sure Jordan has the Jordan brand... but stakeholders in companies from sneakers to fast food to vendors will never make the most money if people are convinced that their hero isn’t as good as Michael Jordan.

Mark my words.. when Lebron James is done... if more people still believe Jordan is the best... then 10 years from now when Jawan Jamo is the best player in the league they’ll be comparing him to Jordan. If James goes on a crazy run and convinces the world he’s better than Jordan ... then “is Jamo better than Lebron” will be in the media every night.

And if Jamo isn’t better than Jordan or James guess what they’ll do? They’ll change the rules to make him look like it... just as Colangelo did in the middle of the last decade because there was no Michael Jordan or prime Shaquille at that point ... and they needed to tweak things to make it appear as though there is.

BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 01:20 PM
And every time this argument comes up, the worst logic and half truths are used in 30 second arguments in the media.. with much left out.

Example:

1. “So Jordan has more championships ... so what, if that’s the standard then Bill Russell has 11.”

A. Well... how about blending more than one standard ...

Championships are the most important thing... and then, once credible championships AS THE LEADER of a team are achieved, stats come into play.

Lebron James and Michael Jordan are better than Bill Russell because although Russell has more rings, his offensive stars were almost pedestrian. His scoring was not as good as Horace Grant...

James and Jordan are better than Chamberlain because although his stats were insane, he only won two rings and had double the disappointments that James has (69 and 70 v. 11).

B. Well, how about we also look at how they did when they LOST?

When Jordan lost, if he played great and had zero hall of fame teammates (or 1 who wasn’t in his prime) it’s always been “so what... he lost.. couldn’t do it without Pippen..”. Even if his opponent had 3-5 hall of famers.. as the Pistons and Celtics did...

Why don’t we ever ask “well, when Jordan and James and Bryant lost... did THEY have a shortcoming that was proximate to the loss?”

2004 Finals -

Lakers lose
Kobe Bryant shoots 38.1%, Shaq shoots 63.1%. Kobe attempts 29 more field goals than the real reason for the season... Shaquille O’neal.

2007 Finals -

Cavs lose
Lebron shoots 35.6%

2008 - Finals

Lakers lose
Kobe shoots 40.5%
Odom and Gasol shoot over 51%
Kobe attempts 9 more FGs than both combined

2011 Finals -

Heat lose
James averages 17.8 PPG
Scottie Pippen averaged more than 17.8 PPG in four of six finals appearances with the Bulls

But you’ll never see Nick Wright talk about this...

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 02:25 PM
And every time this argument comes up, the worst logic and half truths are used in 30 second arguments in the media.. with much left out.

Example:

1. “So Jordan has more championships ... so what, if that’s the standard then Bill Russell has 11.”

A. Well... how about blending more than one standard ...

Championships are the most important thing... and then, once credible championships AS THE LEADER of a team are achieved, stats come into play.

Lebron James and Michael Jordan are better than Bill Russell because although Russell has more rings, his offensive stars were almost pedestrian. His scoring was not as good as Horace Grant...

James and Jordan are better than Chamberlain because although his stats were insane, he only won two rings and had double the disappointments that James has (69 and 70 v. 11).

B. Well, how about we also look at how they did when they LOST?

When Jordan lost, if he played great and had zero hall of fame teammates (or 1 who wasn’t in his prime) it’s always been “so what... he lost.. couldn’t do it without Pippen..”. Even if his opponent had 3-5 hall of famers.. as the Pistons and Celtics did...

Why don’t we ever ask “well, when Jordan and James and Bryant lost... did THEY have a shortcoming that was proximate to the loss?”

2004 Finals -

Lakers lose
Kobe Bryant shoots 38.1%, Shaq shoots 63.1%. Kobe attempts 29 more field goals than the real reason for the season... Shaquille O’neal.

2007 Finals -

Cavs lose
Lebron shoots 35.6%

2008 - Finals

Lakers lose
Kobe shoots 40.5%
Odom and Gasol shoot over 51%
Kobe attempts 9 more FGs than both combined

2011 Finals -

Heat lose
James averages 17.8 PPG
Scottie Pippen averaged more than 17.8 PPG in four of six finals appearances with the Bulls

But you’ll never see Nick Wright talk about this...

I agree with this post but if we're looking at a short sample of playoff blunders compared to an extensive list of superb playoff performances, I think it becomes a little more trivial. Everyone has bad games. Jordan is not escaping that either. But for sure, LeBron's 2011 series was just too difficult to ignore for many. And that's fair. I'm just at the point where it's one series in a fifteen year career in which Lebron could have played in over 60 NBA playoff series by the time his career ends. Like, okay, so what. Are they great basketball player? Yes. Does one series change how good of a player they are? No. Now, if LeBron failed over and over again at the playoffs, there would be a legitimate question. It's like Harden. Failure after failure. That's not very credible. But LeBron's credibility is still taking a hit from 2011 and it's just unfair right now. He's been insanely amazing outside of maybe 2-3 NBA playoff series. And that's just the fact.

BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 02:58 PM
I agree with this post but if we're looking at a short sample of playoff blunders compared to an extensive list of superb playoff performances, I think it becomes a little more trivial. Everyone has bad games. Jordan is not escaping that either. But for sure, LeBron's 2011 series was just too difficult to ignore for many. And that's fair. I'm just at the point where it's one series in a fifteen year career in which Lebron could have played in over 60 NBA playoff series by the time his career ends. Like, okay, so what. Are they great basketball player? Yes. Does one series change how good of a player they are? No. Now, if LeBron failed over and over again at the playoffs, there would be a legitimate question. It's like Harden. Failure after failure. That's not very credible. But LeBron's credibility is still taking a hit from 2011 and it's just unfair right now. He's been insanely amazing outside of maybe 2-3 NBA playoff series. And that's just the fact.

No no no... I didn’t say BAD GAMES.. you’re doing the Colin cowherd thing.

I said

1) bad series
2) in which his team lost

Yes. Everyone has bad games and who cares if you come back and have a couple great games and mostly who cares as long as you win...

As to your next point...

One guy has zero bad series in which his team lost. Jordan.

So, when people say “well I mean championships are a team thing... Jordan didn’t win without Pippen.”

Jordan always played well enough for his team to go all the way. He just didn’t have a team.

Lebron at least two times had something on his stat line where in one case he had the team and was massively exposed.. in another case you can’t argue that even if Lebron had the team ... he would have won shooting 35.6%.

Then you can look at the other loss the Heat should not have had.. the very close 2014 Finals and say “gee, Lebron guarded Leonard and Leonard shot 61% from the floor.” Clyde Drexler shot a very pedestrian 40.7% from the floor in 92.

See that’s the thing with proponents of Bryant and James. They want the debate, and then they don’t want it.

“So what” when you’re comparing a guy to Michael Jordan and someone brings up a series in which he stood in the corner and averaged 17.8 PPG with Jason Terry and JJ Barea standing by him. That’s rich.

You do realize Scottie Pippen averaged more than 17.8 in four of six finals ...

You don’t just get to say “so what” to that and go back to turning it into the “look at the wilt chamberlain like regular season glitter...”

BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 03:03 PM
And it doesn’t matter whether it’s here or Facebook or wherever it’s always “I’m not saying James is better but”
Or “I agree with this post but”...

Why don’t you just say “yeah F all that noise... James is better and here is why”...?

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 03:33 PM
No no no... I didn’t say BAD GAMES.. you’re doing the Colin cowherd thing.

I said

1) bad series
2) in which his team lost

Yes. Everyone has bad games and who cares if you come back and have a couple great games and mostly who cares as long as you win...

As to your next point...

One guy has zero bad series in which his team lost. Jordan.

So, when people say “well I mean championships are a team thing... Jordan didn’t win without Pippen.”

Jordan always played well enough for his team to go all the way. He just didn’t have a team.

Lebron at least two times had something on his stat line where in one case he had the team and was massively exposed.. in another case you can’t argue that even if Lebron had the team ... he would have won shooting 35.6%.

Then you can look at the other loss the Heat should not have had.. the very close 2014 Finals and say “gee, Lebron guarded Leonard and Leonard shot 61% from the floor.” Clyde Drexler shot a very pedestrian 40.7% from the floor in 92.

See that’s the thing with proponents of Bryant and James. They want the debate, and then they don’t want it.

“So what” when you’re comparing a guy to Michael Jordan and someone brings up a series in which he stood in the corner and averaged 17.8 PPG with Jason Terry and JJ Barea standing by him. That’s rich.

You do realize Scottie Pippen averaged more than 17.8 in four of six finals ...

You don’t just get to say “so what” to that and go back to turning it into the “look at the wilt chamberlain like regular season glitter...”

A series is made up of games. It's entirely possible for a player to have bad games in a series but also have good ones. It's just a matter of how bad those games were compared to the good games. In that 2011 series, leBron had a bad series but he had some pretty good games. So that's why I said, "some bad games." Just because a player has a bad series doesn't mean they don't have good games.

And I support that by offering you this: Remember when LMA was destroying Howard and the Rockets in 2014?

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2983/year/2014/lamarcus-aldridge

He ended up having three really bad games. So IMO, his three really bad games overshadowed his insanely two legendary games. That doesn't speak for the series in-itself though if we're just looking at averages. Look at it from an individual level as well if you want to break it down further. The thing I hate about averages is that it's an average. A player can have one insanely great game but an insanely poor game as well.

Ex: Let's say KD drops 50 in game 1 and wins the game for his team but in game 2, only scores 10 points. That's 60 points total for two games but he was the reason they won game 1 and lost game 2. Average is 30 PPG. A lazy person would say, "30 PPG is beast. How did he lose the game for them?" Well, that's where you break it down individually. I'd rather have a player stay consistent than have games where they are either great or just absolute garbage.

Bad series when his teams lost. How am I doing what Colin does? A series is MADE UP OF games. You can't simply say a player had a bad series without mentioning the individual games in-itself.

And I'm not one to fault LeBron for losing in 2007 if they got there solely because of him. If Jordan had beaten the Celtics miracuously and end up facing the Showtime Lakers at their peak, why would we blame him for having a bad series? It's obvious why LeBron lost in 2007: One team was outmatched. That Finals appearance, IMO, was more of a good thing for Bron than negative. It was the first time I realized that he could carry a team to the Finals despite them being a bad team.

BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 03:55 PM
A series is made up of games. It's entirely possible for a player to have bad games in a series but also have good ones. It's just a matter of how bad those games were compared to the good games. In that 2011 series, leBron had a bad series but he had some pretty good games. So that's why I said, "some bad games." Just because a player has a bad series doesn't mean they don't have good games.

And I support that by offering you this: Remember when LMA was destroying Howard and the Rockets in 2014?

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2983/year/2014/lamarcus-aldridge

He ended up having three really bad games. So IMO, his three really bad games overshadowed his insanely two legendary games. That doesn't speak for the series in-itself though if we're just looking at averages. Look at it from an individual level as well if you want to break it down further. The thing I hate about averages is that it's an average. A player can have one insanely great game but an insanely poor game as well.

Ex: Let's say KD drops 50 in game 1 and wins the game for his team but in game 2, only scores 10 points. That's 60 points total for two games but he was the reason they won game 1 and lost game 2. Average is 30 PPG. A lazy person would say, "30 PPG is beast. How did he lose the game for them?" Well, that's where you break it down individually. I'd rather have a player stay consistent than have games where they are either great or just absolute garbage.

Bad series when his teams lost. How am I doing what Colin does? A series is MADE UP OF games. You can't simply say a player had a bad series without mentioning the individual games in-itself.

And I'm not one to fault LeBron for losing in 2007 if they got there solely because of him. If Jordan had beaten the Celtics miracuously and end up facing the Showtime Lakers at their peak, why would we blame him for having a bad series? It's obvious why LeBron lost in 2007: One team was outmatched. That Finals appearance, IMO, was more of a good thing for Bron than negative. It was the first time I realized that he could carry a team to the Finals despite them being a bad team.

Dude what? He averaged 17.8 PPG for the series ... they lost the series ... nobody ever said “well you know the Bulls won the 92 Finals.. but Clyde Drexler did have two good games... what??

Jordan didn’t have a bad series against Boston.. he was the best of the six hall of famers in that series ... it’s just that five were on one team. He averaged 43.7 PPG on 50.5% against a team that many consider the best ever.. a 68 win team with two championships and three players who were worlds better than tony Parker and manu ginobili... and FIVE hall of famers.. not Tim Duncan and two borderline hall of famers ...

If Jordan had played the showtime Lakers and shot 35.6% or averaged 17.8 PPG I would fault him for playing bad individually... even if a better series would not have netted a team win...

I always find it hilarious that people act like Lebron in 07 was the ultimate in “this guys team shouldn’t even have been in the game” but with Jordan no one ever EVER has said “well other than when he was a rookie and when he came back from baseball every team he ever lost to had 3-5 hall of famers”

It’s “couldn’t do it without Pippen.”

So Bryant and James get context while people act like 95-98 was Jordan’s whole career and just make half statement left and right

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 04:34 PM
Dude what? He averaged 17.8 PPG for the series ... they lost the series ... nobody ever said “well you know the Bulls won the 92 Finals.. but Clyde Drexler did have two good games... what??

Jordan didn’t have a bad series against Boston.. he was the best of the six hall of famers in that series ... it’s just that five were on one team. He averaged 43.7 PPG on 50.5% against a team that many consider the best ever.. a 68 win team with two championships and three players who were worlds better than tony Parker and manu ginobili... and FIVE hall of famers.. not Tim Duncan and two borderline hall of famers ...

If Jordan had played the showtime Lakers and shot 35.6% or averaged 17.8 PPG I would fault him for playing bad individually... even if a better series would not have netted a team win...

I always find it hilarious that people act like Lebron in 07 was the ultimate in “this guys team shouldn’t even have been in the game” but with Jordan no one ever EVER has said “well other than when he was a rookie and when he came back from baseball every team he ever lost to had 3-5 hall of famers”

It’s “couldn’t do it without Pippen.”

So Bryant and James get context while people act like 95-98 was Jordan’s whole career and just make half statement left and right

Lmao @ you trying to make it seem as if Jordan was scrutinized close to half what LeBron has dealt with. Just stop it, dude. I'm agreeing with you. I'm just saying LeBron has had very good games but also extremely bad games in a series. His Boston (where he was "quitting") is an example of that. The fact people blame him for losing in 2007 when none of his teammates looked like they were breathing is enough evidence that he gets more than his fair share of blame. Could you imagine in today's league where Jordan can't escape the 1st round for seven seasons? Yeah, buddy. I'm pretty sure he would get wrecked even more than we'd like to remember.

BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 04:53 PM
Lmao @ you trying to make it seem as if Jordan was scrutinized close to half what LeBron has dealt with. Just stop it, dude. I'm agreeing with you. I'm just saying LeBron has had very good games but also extremely bad games in a series. His Boston (where he was "quitting") is an example of that. The fact people blame him for losing in 2007 when none of his teammates looked like they were breathing is enough evidence that he gets more than his fair share of blame. Could you imagine in today's league where Jordan can't escape the 1st round for seven seasons? Yeah, buddy. I'm pretty sure he would get wrecked even more than we'd like to remember.

Once again ... someone speaking on Jordan reveals that they have this very small view of who Jordan was mostly encompassed by 95-98. He was hounded by the LA and Boston and really national media as the 80s ended and 90s began. There was zero context in analysis of his losses to Boston and Detroit. The National storyline was that “Jordan didn’t make his teammates better like Magic,” to which an irritated Jordan once replied “I’d like a chance to make Kareem and Worthy better.”

But man when Magic lost to Jordan.. there was a full forensic analysis of the injuries of Worthy and Scott and Magic, get this, was “old” at age 31.

Lebron had a bad series in 11 and relative to the greats shot very poorly in 07.

See, you’re proving like most modernists who speak on Jordan you just don’t know anything about Jordan. He lost as a rookie to the Bucks and then TWICE to Boston’s five hall of famers In the first round. He never lost again in the first round...

1+1+1 = 7??

ewing
04-02-2018, 05:10 PM
Once again ... someone speaking on Jordan reveals that they have this very small view of who Jordan was mostly encompassed by 95-98. He was hounded by the LA and Boston and really national media as the 80s ended and 90s began. There was zero context in analysis of his losses to Boston and Detroit. The National storyline was that “Jordan didn’t make his teammates better like Magic,” to which an irritated Jordan once replied “I’d like a chance to make Kareem and Worthy better.”

But man when Magic lost to Jordan.. there was a full forensic analysis of the injuries of Worthy and Scott and Magic, get this, was “old” at age 31.

Lebron had a bad series in 11 and relative to the greats shot very poorly in 07.

See, you’re proving like most modernists who speak on Jordan you just don’t know anything about Jordan. He lost as a rookie to the Bucks and then TWICE to Boston’s five hall of famers In the first round. He never lost again in the first round...

1+1+1 = 7??

Flash bolt thinks 1990 is acicent history. Bc we are talking about a time before guys “really” played basketball the facts don’t matter. He gets them wrong all the time but it doesn’t matter bc everything is based on some historical narrative he is sold on


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Vee-Rex
04-02-2018, 05:10 PM
To me these longevity records don’t mean anything. And they wouldn’t if Jordan had never skipped seasons and just played till 40 like he did.

This whole thing is ramping up to Kobe v. Jordan level stupidity, though to be fair, Lebron makes a much better case than Kobe ever did.

People need to realize this manufactured consent. This will always happen.. just as favorable comparisons were drawn to Dirk over Bird early in his career.

Why? Because the right people make money when everyone is convinced that here and now is the only place and time to be ... sure Jordan has the Jordan brand... but stakeholders in companies from sneakers to fast food to vendors will never make the most money if people are convinced that their hero isn’t as good as Michael Jordan.

Mark my words.. when Lebron James is done... if more people still believe Jordan is the best... then 10 years from now when Jawan Jamo is the best player in the league they’ll be comparing him to Jordan. If James goes on a crazy run and convinces the world he’s better than Jordan ... then “is Jamo better than Lebron” will be in the media every night.

And if Jamo isn’t better than Jordan or James guess what they’ll do? They’ll change the rules to make him look like it... just as Colangelo did in the middle of the last decade because there was no Michael Jordan or prime Shaquille at that point ... and they needed to tweak things to make it appear as though there is.

Idk, man. That Jawan Jamo kid is looking like he might already be the GOAT right this moment. Can't wait to see how he does when he's in high school.

BoilermakerD
04-02-2018, 05:37 PM
Idk, man. That Jawan Jamo kid is looking like he might already be the GOAT right this moment. Can't wait to see how he does when he's in high school.

He wins state title as a junior “Jordan at 17, 0 rings, Jamo 1 ring.”

They actually did that with Kobe at 22 because he rode Shaq to three rings ... the media basically acted like “hey, a rings a ring... Jordan led his team to three? Someone else comes along and plays second fiddle to three? Details....”

WaDe03
04-02-2018, 10:16 PM
This is very impressive.

BoilermakerD
04-03-2018, 12:48 AM
Flash bolt thinks 1990 is acicent history. Bc we are talking about a time before guys “really” played basketball the facts don’t matter. He gets them wrong all the time but it doesn’t matter bc everything is based on some historical narrative he is sold on


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Is he aware that just 3 or four years ago Joakim Noah was DPOY AND 4th in MVP voting? Does anyone realize what it would look like if Joakim Noah tried to guard David Robinson in his prime? Or Hakeem? Or Shaq in 1993 even ... or Patrick Ewing?

I was watching game 4 of the 93 Finals and the Suns had a 6’10” athletic shooter named Tom Chambers and the dialogue was about how Chambers couldn’t get in the game because as Mike Fratello put it “Tom chambers a nice tall athletic shooting option.. cannot change ends of the floor with Horace Grant and cannot rebound with Horace Grant. Paul Westphal has to match up with Charles Barkley.”

Sam Perkins was 6’9” and could shoot from distance ... nobody cared. In the Finals in 91... nobody gave a flying F... Perkins shot 40.5% on 16.6. Cue 2018 guy “but with threes you have to count that cause that means his TS was 50.8%.. waaaah.”

Ok.. Horace Grant averaged 14.6 PPG shot 62.7% and his TS was 64.9%. Because he was a 90s basketball player playing against a player in Perkins who would fit in just fine today ... and he just physically buried Perkins and made him look like a little girl. Horace Grant was far from the biggest and baddest ... he looked like his back was breaking guarding Barkley in 93. There’s no way he’d be out of his element up against Draymond Green...

ewing
04-03-2018, 06:13 AM
Is he aware that just 3 or four years ago Joakim Noah was DPOY AND 4th in MVP voting? Does anyone realize what it would look like if Joakim Noah tried to guard David Robinson in his prime? Or Hakeem? Or Shaq in 1993 even ... or Patrick Ewing?

I was watching game 4 of the 93 Finals and the Suns had a 6’10” athletic shooter named Tom Chambers and the dialogue was about how Chambers couldn’t get in the game because as Mike Fratello put it “Tom chambers a nice tall athletic shooting option.. cannot change ends of the floor with Horace Grant and cannot rebound with Horace Grant. Paul Westphal has to match up with Charles Barkley.”

Sam Perkins was 6’9” and could shoot from distance ... nobody cared. In the Finals in 91... nobody gave a flying F... Perkins shot 40.5% on 16.6. Cue 2018 guy “but with threes you have to count that cause that means his TS was 50.8%.. waaaah.”

Ok.. Horace Grant averaged 14.6 PPG shot 62.7% and his TS was 64.9%. Because he was a 90s basketball player playing against a player in Perkins who would fit in just fine today ... and he just physically buried Perkins and made him look like a little girl. Horace Grant was far from the biggest and baddest ... he looked like his back was breaking guarding Barkley in 93. There’s no way he’d be out of his element up against Draymond Green...

The game is very complex now. For example 90% of the time Houston runs a high screen roll surrounded by shooters and then let there ball handler decide if he should attack, hit the roller, or kick. This is too complicated for the players of yesterday


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prodigy
04-03-2018, 10:17 AM
as he pumps himself up for an MVP award that he has absolutely no business being in the running of, but is too self absorbed to acknowledge that).

he's still just dominating the game in every department. But ya why would someone who is carrying a team to 50+ wins, avg a triple double last 2 months, means everything to the teams success be considered for most valuable player? :eyebrow:

ewing
04-03-2018, 10:26 AM
he's still just dominating the game in every department. But ya why would someone who is carrying a team to 50+ wins, avg a triple double last 2 months, means everything to the teams success be considered for most valuable player? :eyebrow:

Bc guys are having a better season then him. You have look at the other players


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prodigy
04-03-2018, 10:27 AM
I'll say the dsame that that guy on ESPN says. I cant remember his name and dont care to look it up.

Its to the point where you gotta tell me what Jordan is better at in basketball then Lebron without bringing up 6 rings. Lebrons a better rebounder, passer, much more versatile defender, Jordan scored 4 more points a game on 3+ more shots. Lebron better overall FG%, 3pt%, 2pt% etc... I'm done but this list could keep going lol.

Honestly just quick thinking on my break, Jordan is a better FT shooter. Maybe a better one on one defender when it comes to Covering Guards, but then again if i needed one stop I'd prob take Lebron. 6'8 250 faster, bigger and stronger then MJ.

ewing
04-03-2018, 11:06 AM
I'll say the dsame that that guy on ESPN says. I cant remember his name and dont care to look it up.

Its to the point where you gotta tell me what Jordan is better at in basketball then Lebron without bringing up 6 rings. Lebrons a better rebounder, passer, much more versatile defender, Jordan scored 4 more points a game on 3+ more shots. Lebron better overall FG%, 3pt%, 2pt% etc... I'm done but this list could keep going lol.

Honestly just quick thinking on my break, Jordan is a better FT shooter. Maybe a better one on one defender when it comes to Covering Guards, but then again if i needed one stop I'd prob take Lebron. 6'8 250 faster, bigger and stronger then MJ.

Micheal was a better scorer, better clutch performer, he was a better defender, he even only averaged about one less rebound a game from perimeter position so I’d say he a better rebounder given position, and he certainly was faster


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Heediot
04-03-2018, 11:52 AM
Micheal was a better scorer, better clutch performer, he was a better defender, he even only averaged about one less rebound a game from perimeter position so I’d say he a better rebounder given position, and he certainly was faster


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James in stride is probably faster. James over a long floor might be faster. Jordan is faster in smaller areas/half court. Way better first step and agility. Bron needs a pick or two to get in stride so he can have a big advantage with his speed/strength combo. If not then he has to create more space first before getting into stride and going to the rim. Jordan combo of quickness, agility, and vertical makes him better at getting separation in tight spaces.

There's an argument Jordan is better at getting to the rim because of the above mentioned too.

ewing
04-03-2018, 11:58 AM
James in stride is probably faster. James over a long floor might be faster. Jordan is faster in smaller areas/half court. Way better first step and agility. Bron needs a pick or two to get in stride so he can have a big advantage with his speed/strength combo. If not then he has to create more space first before getting into stride and going to the rim. Jordan combo of quickness, agility, and vertical makes him better at getting separation in tight spaces.

There's an argument Jordan is better at getting to the rim because of the above mentioned too.

if in a straight line after getting up to speed he is faster that really isn’t all that relevant to getting a stop/being a good match on D other then the chase down block. Mike was clearly faster laterally.


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prodigy
04-03-2018, 12:50 PM
Micheal was a better scorer, better clutch performer, he was a better defender, he even only averaged about one less rebound a game from perimeter position so I’d say he a better rebounder given position, and he certainly was faster


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Simply making things up lol. Lebron career avg for rebounding is 7.4 to MJ 6.2. That seems close but its really not lol. Lebron has almost 2000 more rebounds then MJ lol. Lebron has also avg over 8.5 last 2 seasons. Lebrons def a better rebounder no argument. If you needed one guy to grab a rebound you are taking Lebron dont lie.

Better clutch ok. But don't act like lebron is horrible. Lebron has been clutch on offense and defense throughout his career. I'll give MJ clutch though.

Better defender against guards ok. Once again Lebron by far a more versatile defender not even close. If i need one stop im taking lebron. Because no matter who has the ball Lebron can contest them. Where as MJ is limited.

Lebrons faster, bigger and stronger.

So what we know for sure. MJ is a better FT shooter, more clutch and better defender on guards.

prodigy
04-03-2018, 12:51 PM
James in stride is probably faster. James over a long floor might be faster. Jordan is faster in smaller areas/half court. Way better first step and agility. Bron needs a pick or two to get in stride so he can have a big advantage with his speed/strength combo. If not then he has to create more space first before getting into stride and going to the rim. Jordan combo of quickness, agility, and vertical makes him better at getting separation in tight spaces.

There's an argument Jordan is better at getting to the rim because of the above mentioned too.

every single player in modern history uses screens MJ included. other than maybe centers lol.

ewing
04-03-2018, 01:23 PM
Simply making things up lol. Lebron career avg for rebounding is 7.4 to MJ 6.2. That seems close but its really not lol. Lebron has almost 2000 more rebounds then MJ lol. Lebron has also avg over 8.5 last 2 seasons. Lebrons def a better rebounder no argument. If you needed one guy to grab a rebound you are taking Lebron dont lie.

Better clutch ok. But don't act like lebron is horrible. Lebron has been clutch on offense and defense throughout his career. I'll give MJ clutch though.

Better defender against guards ok. Once again Lebron by far a more versatile defender not even close. If i need one stop im taking lebron. Because no matter who has the ball Lebron can contest them. Where as MJ is limited.

Lebrons faster, bigger and stronger.

So what we know for sure. MJ is a better FT shooter, more clutch and better defender on guards.

I didn’t make anything up nor did i pretend LBJ wasn’t clutch, just stated that MJ was better. I also think MJ is a better defender at the one, two, and three. I’d rather have a guy that was elite 1 through 3 then very solid 1 through 5.


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valade16
04-03-2018, 01:57 PM
I didn’t make anything up nor did i pretend LBJ wasn’t clutch, just stated that MJ was better. I also think MJ is a better defender at the one, two, and three. I’d rather have a guy that was elite 1 through 3 then very solid 1 through 5.

I think LeBron was an elite defender but this idea that he'd be an elite defender at every position is a little overboard. He got eaten alive by David West in the playoffs. He'd certainly not be locking down any great post players of yesteryear.

ewing
04-03-2018, 02:01 PM
I think LeBron was an elite defender but this idea that he'd be an elite defender at every position is a little overboard. He got eaten alive by David West in the playoffs. He'd certainly not be locking down any great post players of yesteryear.

If I take an elite guy at each position and ask myself who I would rather have check him I get Mike in 3 of 5 positions most times. You don’t need to be any stronger then Mike to check one through 3 and you are building a team. I’m not going to ask Mike to defend 5s all night.

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Heediot
04-03-2018, 02:07 PM
every single player in modern history uses screens MJ included. other than maybe centers lol.

It's not about if everyone uses screens. It's James pedestrian first step that makes him more dependent on a screen to maximize his speed. Jordan can hit his speed a lot faster. Jordan can break his man down without a screen a tonne better versus James. James speed offensively, is best seen in transition or after a screen is set.

Jamiecballer
04-03-2018, 03:32 PM
Should there be an asterisk next to this since LeBron sits games to rest?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI agree, it does sort of undermine what is otherwise pretty incredible. Like the Westbrook triple double thing

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prodigy
04-03-2018, 04:01 PM
I think LeBron was an elite defender but this idea that he'd be an elite defender at every position is a little overboard. He got eaten alive by David West in the playoffs. He'd certainly not be locking down any great post players of yesteryear.

Read why you post. Notice the lie you told? I never said LeBron was an elite defender. I said he is by far more versatile of a defender then MJ. That's just a fact.

The problem determining defense is the eras are different. Guys never shot the ball like they do now when Jordan played. Yes u had good shooters, but not like today. One on one I need one stop. I'm taking lebeon. I understand that's unpopular. But LeBron giving 110% on defense is very scary. Very hard to score on him.

ewing
04-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Read why you post. Notice the lie you told? I never said LeBron was an elite defender. I said he is by far more versatile of a defender then MJ. That's just a fact.

The problem determining defense is the eras are different. Guys never shot the ball like they do now when Jordan played. Yes u had good shooters, but not like today. One on one I need one stop. I'm taking lebeon. I understand that's unpopular. But LeBron giving 110% on defense is very scary. Very hard to score on him.

There is no problem. The guy was 6’6 super fast laterally and smart. He would have no issue maintaining connection with shooters. His superior lateral speed/agility would likely make him better at it bc he wouldnt have sag as much. Just like LeBron power makes him better in the post. These are all hypothetical


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valade16
04-03-2018, 04:24 PM
Read why you post. Notice the lie you told? I never said LeBron was an elite defender. I said he is by far more versatile of a defender then MJ. That's just a fact.

The problem determining defense is the eras are different. Guys never shot the ball like they do now when Jordan played. Yes u had good shooters, but not like today. One on one I need one stop. I'm taking lebeon. I understand that's unpopular. But LeBron giving 110% on defense is very scary. Very hard to score on him.

I didn't know he was responding to you first off, I was speaking in general and not about your position exclusively.

Now that I am speaking of your position exclusively, while it's your opinion, he is more versatile in that he's bigger so he can guard bigger guys. But that doesn't mean he necessarily does a good job doing it. If he's so hard to score on in terms of versatility how come David West didn't have any problems scoring on him?

If a guy like David West can present him problems for a big man, there is simply no way his versatility extends to guarding Duncan, or KG, or Dirk or any of them.

If I need a guy to stop someone I'm taking MJ over LeBron. If I need one of them to guard a PF or C I'll take LeBron but I certainly won't expect either to shut that guy down.

ewing
04-03-2018, 04:28 PM
I smell a it just so complex comment coming


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BoilermakerD
04-03-2018, 06:36 PM
I'll say the dsame that that guy on ESPN says. I cant remember his name and dont care to look it up.

Its to the point where you gotta tell me what Jordan is better at in basketball then Lebron without bringing up 6 rings. Lebrons a better rebounder, passer, much more versatile defender, Jordan scored 4 more points a game on 3+ more shots. Lebron better overall FG%, 3pt%, 2pt% etc... I'm done but this list could keep going lol.

Honestly just quick thinking on my break, Jordan is a better FT shooter. Maybe a better one on one defender when it comes to Covering Guards, but then again if i needed one stop I'd prob take Lebron. 6'8 250 faster, bigger and stronger then MJ.

So I find it interesting you want to say “oh don’t bring up six rings” (as though if Lebron had seven with inferior stats, you wouldn’t be jumping up and down.. yeah, ok). But then you call Lebron a better passer. Even though Jordan averaged 8 APG in the 89 season, 10.7 for the last 24 games in which Doug Collins started MJ at PG. Jordan once averaged 11.4 APG.. so what happened? Was it that after 89 MJ just couldn’t average high assist numbers because he “couldn’t pass” as well as others?

No. Phil Jackson was hired, wanted an equal opportunity scoring offense and he wanted Pippen to be the main distributor. Jordan could have said no, made “decisions”, flipped his roster midseasons, ended up with three rings and had more points and assists... but instead he listened to Jackson and Jackson’s first year was the only season in which Jordan played a full season in which they didn’t win a ring.

When you say versatile defender you do realize in the 91 finals when Pippen switched onto magic Jordan guarded vlade divac for long strentches while also averaging those 11.4 apg OH and 33 ppg on 55% FG...

You don’t know what you think you know...

BoilermakerD
04-03-2018, 06:53 PM
The game is very complex now. For example 90% of the time Houston runs a high screen roll surrounded by shooters and then let there ball handler decide if he should attack, hit the roller, or kick. This is too complicated for the players of yesterday


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So you’re saying Joakim Noah was 4th in mvp voting and DPOY in the same season but players from yesterday aren’t smart enough to play today?

BoilermakerD
04-03-2018, 06:56 PM
James in stride is probably faster. James over a long floor might be faster. Jordan is faster in smaller areas/half court. Way better first step and agility. Bron needs a pick or two to get in stride so he can have a big advantage with his speed/strength combo. If not then he has to create more space first before getting into stride and going to the rim. Jordan combo of quickness, agility, and vertical makes him better at getting separation in tight spaces.

There's an argument Jordan is better at getting to the rim because of the above mentioned too.

So in other words you think 96-98 MJ IS MJ ? Cause calling Lebron faster isn’t possible if you’ve seen Mj from 84-93

ewing
04-03-2018, 07:07 PM
So you’re saying Joakim Noah was 4th in mvp voting and DPOY in the same season but players from yesterday aren’t smart enough to play today?

You missed the joke


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IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 12:20 AM
I think LeBron was an elite defender but this idea that he'd be an elite defender at every position is a little overboard. He got eaten alive by David West in the playoffs. He'd certainly not be locking down any great post players of yesteryear.

Jamal Mashburn ate Scottie Pippen alive 10x worse and they play the same position. Even the sun shines on a dogs a— some day.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 12:21 AM
It's not about if everyone uses screens. It's James pedestrian first step that makes him more dependent on a screen to maximize his speed. Jordan can hit his speed a lot faster. Jordan can break his man down without a screen a tonne better versus James. James speed offensively, is best seen in transition or after a screen is set.

Lol, ur so wrong

ewing
04-04-2018, 12:36 AM
Jamal Mashburn ate Scottie Pippen alive 10x worse and they play the same position. Even the sun shines on a dogs a— some day.

That happened to Scottie a lot in the playoffs


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FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 12:40 AM
I didn't know he was responding to you first off, I was speaking in general and not about your position exclusively.

Now that I am speaking of your position exclusively, while it's your opinion, he is more versatile in that he's bigger so he can guard bigger guys. But that doesn't mean he necessarily does a good job doing it. If he's so hard to score on in terms of versatility how come David West didn't have any problems scoring on him?

If a guy like David West can present him problems for a big man, there is simply no way his versatility extends to guarding Duncan, or KG, or Dirk or any of them.

If I need a guy to stop someone I'm taking MJ over LeBron. If I need one of them to guard a PF or C I'll take LeBron but I certainly won't expect either to shut that guy down.

1) Which games are we talking about vs David West?
2) LeBron at his peak could have locked down many PF's/C. No one is talking about locking down the premier players of the position. Some guys, you just can't stop. Like, you couldn't really stop peak KG or TD either. Who stopped peak Dirk? I mean, those are just horrible arguments. You can't stop great players, period. They are great for a reason. The definition between LeBron's versatility isn't that he can guard everyone but it's that he does a great job guarding all positions. It's just a really great feature for a player to be able to guard 1-5 positions because it allows numerous lineups potential.
3) MJ has not locked down the same level of players as LeBron does. And when he has that much defensive help from his team, it's really not fair to compare their individual defensive competence. Give LeBron Pippen and Rodman and LeBron's defense would be off the roof. How easy would it be for that guy? I mean, Wade and Bosh were his "Pippen and Rodman." Neither guys played defense.. Bosh was only great at defending the pick-n-roll because he was skinny (better movement) and had long arms. He routinely got destroyed by David West and Roy Hibbert.. and that's why I'm asking you which games did LeBron cover West because the games I've remembered, West routinely destroyed Bosh and whatever poor small-ball lineup Miami Heat had to use.

And when we talk about defense, which again, I hate comparing completely different eras.. Let's use tiers again, please.. but anyways, LeBron can't hand check. Defenders benefit from hand checking. Go watch videos of Jordan abusing hand checking. You guys say, "it was tougher to score in the 90's because of hand checking." Well, isn't it tougher to play defense without hand checking, then?

Heediot
04-04-2018, 06:04 AM
Lol, ur so wrong

You tell me how good James' first step is? I even argued that he has a case to be faster vs. Jordan IN STRIDE.

Edit, here I re-watched and added these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZUI6ndTWLw

James utilizes a screen on the vast majoristy of his plays to the rim. He's not as crafty as Jordan or other guys with handles and breaking down guys east west for a pull up. In these highlights the only time the does some of that is only buzzer/shot clock beaters. These highlights are like half Varajao screens lol. From stand he's not the greatest. Everything is also north south, aside from the buzzer shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3WbBYfbc8

Jordan utilizes 1 maybe 2 screens in all the highlights. His versatility, agility, skills, is a lot more demonstrable in the comparison of highlights. There are a lot of highlights of him post baseball and you can see his ability after then too. From standstill and from a first step perspective. Jordan is clearly better, which is my point. Like I said James is more dependent on a screen because once he gets into his 2-3rd step that's when he's deadly. Jordan's first step is so crazy and the respect for his mid range is so high that he can get into his stride or his spots less dependently on a screen.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 07:28 AM
You tell me how good James' first step is? I even argued that he has a case to be faster vs. Jordan IN STRIDE.

Edit, here I re-watched and added these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZUI6ndTWLw

James utilizes a screen on the vast majoristy of his plays to the rim. He's not as crafty as Jordan or other guys with handles and breaking down guys east west for a pull up. In these highlights the only time the does some of that is only buzzer/shot clock beaters. These highlights are like half Varajao screens lol. From stand he's not the greatest. Everything is also north south, aside from the buzzer shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3WbBYfbc8

Jordan utilizes 1 maybe 2 screens in all the highlights. His versatility, agility, skills, is a lot more demonstrable in the comparison of highlights. There are a lot of highlights of him post baseball and you can see his ability after then too. From standstill and from a first step perspective. Jordan is clearly better, which is my point. Like I said James is more dependent on a screen because once he gets into his 2-3rd step that's when he's deadly. Jordan's first step is so crazy and the respect for his mid range is so high that he can get into his stride or his spots less dependently on a screen.

You're not understanding how screens work. Screens aren't only used to primarily have the ballhandler score the ball. It's to freeze up a defense and create mismatches. In today's game, it's more-so important than ever that you set screens up to confuse a defense, create a slight second of hesistation, and find the open shooter or attack the basket. The thing you ignore is the zone defense. It was easier for Jordan to attack the basket because there wasn't any zone coverage the way teams can guard now. So Jordan didn't really need a reason to have screens set. How many teams were consistently setting screens the way the teams are doing today? Probably zero. And it has less to do with first step, second step, etc., but more to do with how the offense is being played today. I also don't know why you're comparing the first step of two players who are completely different sizes. If Jordan weighed 260 lbs, he wouldn't have as quick of a first step. That's like common sense. It's like me saying LeBron is bigger. There are pros and cons to having a different body.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 07:36 AM
You're not understanding how screens work. Screens aren't only used to primarily have the ballhandler score the ball. It's to freeze up a defense and create mismatches. In today's game, it's more-so important than ever that you set screens up to confuse a defense, create a slight second of hesistation, and find the open shooter or attack the basket. The thing you ignore is the zone defense. It was easier for Jordan to attack the basket because there wasn't any zone coverage the way teams can guard now. So Jordan didn't really need a reason to have screens set. How many teams were consistently setting screens the way the teams are doing today? Probably zero. And it has less to do with first step, second step, etc., but more to do with how the offense is being played today. I also don't know why you're comparing the first step of two players who are completely different sizes. If Jordan weighed 260 lbs, he wouldn't have as quick of a first step. That's like common sense. It's like me saying LeBron is bigger. There are pros and cons to having a different body.

My initial argument was vs. Prodigy. I said James is probably faster full stride and Jordan has a better first step and quicker. Bron's game is north and south. There are guys in the new nba that have more east and west, beat you off the dribble for a pull up type games. I still don't think Bron has a good first step, and I need evidence to suggest otherwise that's the take for me here. I am not saying his first step is garbage but it's slightly above average at best. He'll have his moments when he beats a guy purely on first step. He's no Giannis, Rose, Wall or even RW. The guy is 240-250, so to ask that of a guy that size is a bit much. But the argument was about who does what better when prodigy was saying James does so much things better.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 07:49 AM
My initial argument was vs. Prodigy. I said James is probably faster full stride and Jordan has a better first step and quicker. Bron's game is north and south. There are guys in the new nba that have more east and west, beat you off the dribble for a pull up type games. I still don't think Bron has a good first step, and I need evidence to suggest otherwise that's the take for me here. I am not saying his first step is garbage but it's slightly above average at best. He'll have his moments when he beats a guy purely on first step. He's no Giannis, Rose, Wall or even RW. The guy is 240-250, so to ask that of a guy that size is a bit much. But the argument was about who does what better when prodigy was saying James does so much things better.

When did he say LeBron had a great first step? And LeBron's first step is quick relative for his size. It's why he beats opposing defenders his same size all the time and gets to the basket. It's not always a screen. A screen is USED because of zone defense. So your assumption that LeBron needs more screens to get past his defender or whatever it is, it's not true. One-on-one, only Kawhi is capable of guarding LeBron. When you add that zone defense, though, of course he will need screens because his first step wouldn't help him much if teams are playing zone. I mean, you can't realistically compare LeBron's first step to guys who are much thinner in frame and are smaller by weight. Look at AI for an example. No doubt, MJ's first step was insane. It's the best pound for pound. But you also have to consider why MJ's first step was so quick. Because when he played, it was mostly ISO ball. beat your defender with the dribble and that's how you score. Jordan had a reason to have a quick first step because they didn't play zone defense on him. Get past your defender, get to the rim, and it's too late for the other team to stop you. Now? If teams play zone, you're going to have to settle for a jumper or pass the ball. And that's why screens are used constantly.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 07:58 AM
When did he say LeBron had a great first step? And LeBron's first step is quick relative for his size. It's why he beats opposing defenders his same size all the time and gets to the basket. It's not always a screen. A screen is USED because of zone defense. So your assumption that LeBron needs more screens to get past his defender or whatever it is, it's not true. One-on-one, only Kawhi is capable of guarding LeBron. When you add that zone defense, though, of course he will need screens because his first step wouldn't help him much if teams are playing zone. I mean, you can't realistically compare LeBron's first step to guys who are much thinner in frame and are smaller by weight. Look at AI for an example. No doubt, MJ's first step was insane. It's the best pound for pound. But you also have to consider why MJ's first step was so quick. Because when he played, it was mostly ISO ball. beat your defender with the dribble and that's how you score. Jordan had a reason to have a quick first step because they didn't play zone defense on him. Get past your defender, get to the rim, and it's too late for the other team to stop you. Now? If teams play zone, you're going to have to settle for a jumper or pass the ball. And that's why screens are used constantly.

I get what your saying. I'm sure I can dig up highlights of newer wings using their speed and east west game better. Zones or no zones, I don't see anything in what I am saying is wrong about James. Bron can't stop and start like others guys, he doesn't have the wiggle, dribbling or footwork face up. But like you said he is 250 lbs,. Even in terms of big man skills like post up offense, Jordan was better. You LeBron homers taking offense when someone points out a truth about Bron. If someone said James has more power then Jordan, and was a better passer, I'll accept it. Prodigy said James was bigger, faster, stronger. I just pointed out there are ways that Jordan was faster/quicker, and that led to the first step, east-west thing.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 08:09 AM
I get what your saying. I'm sure I can dig up highlights of newer wings using their speed and east west game better. Zones or no zones, I don't see anything in what I am saying is wrong about James. Bron can't stop and start like others guys, he doesn't have the wiggle, dribbling or footwork face up. But like you said he is 250 lbs,. Even in terms of big man skills like post up offense, Jordan was better. You LeBron homers taking offense when someone points out a truth about Bron. If someone said James has more power then Jordan, and was a better passer, I'll accept it. Prodigy said James was bigger, faster, stronger. I just pointed out there are ways that Jordan was faster/quicker, and that led to the first step, east-west thing.

Isn't it entirely possible that you are a Jordan homer, though? I mean, no one debated with you about the first step. You're debating with Ewing and then you confused yourself with who said what. I read through the posts.. No one mentioned first-step but you. I think everyone can agree Jordan had a quicker first step. Does that have to be repeated? The problem I had is when you said Jordan had a quicker first step so he was better at getting to the rim. Well, a large part which you always fail to mention is the zone defense... Why would LeBron attack a rim if they are playing zone? It's a stupid play unless he's trying to bait them into leaving their defender. Otherwise, it's a dumb ISO play and it's why you see less ISO plays today than during the 90's. If zone isn't played, LeBron gets past his defender every time (outside maybe Kawhi) because no one his size is quicker, stronger, and smarter than he is. There are quicker defenders that could "stop" leBron's first step and that's why some teams put a smaller defender on Bron. But that doesn't work well when LeBron simply overpowers them. And that is why LeBron doesn't need a first step as much as MJ did.. he compensates by his bigger size.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 08:14 AM
And your "Jordan uses 1-2 screens in all his highlights" prove my point.. once again. How many screens do you think John Wall, Russ, and the quickest first-step guys use today? A massive amount. Of course MJ didn't need a screen as much.. why would he? In fact, it's better he DOESN'T get a screen because there's such a lack of floor spacing so it didn't make that much sense to use as many screens. When you spread the floor up to the three point line and heck, sometimes a few feet above that, setting screens opens up the floor. Like I told you before and it's 100% a fact, a lack of zone defense made getting to the rim easier and caused more ISO plays.

prodigy
04-04-2018, 08:37 AM
There is no problem. The guy was 6’6 super fast laterally and smart. He would have no issue maintaining connection with shooters. His superior lateral speed/agility would likely make him better at it bc he wouldnt have sag as much. Just like LeBron power makes him better in the post. These are all hypothetical


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?? with people becoming better and more willing shooters it adds another thing you gotta cover. That always makes defense harder. Thats a fact. What you said is opinion. I never said MJ wouldn't be a good defender today. But you gotta respect the revolution of basketball over the years.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 08:43 AM
Isn't it entirely possible that you are a Jordan homer, though? I mean, no one debated with you about the first step. You're debating with Ewing and then you confused yourself with who said what. I read through the posts.. No one mentioned first-step but you. I think everyone can agree Jordan had a quicker first step. Does that have to be repeated? The problem I had is when you said Jordan had a quicker first step so he was better at getting to the rim. Well, a large part which you always fail to mention is the zone defense... Why would LeBron attack a rim if they are playing zone? It's a stupid play unless he's trying to bait them into leaving their defender. Otherwise, it's a dumb ISO play and it's why you see less ISO plays today than during the 90's. If zone isn't played, LeBron gets past his defender every time (outside maybe Kawhi) because no one his size is quicker, stronger, and smarter than he is. There are quicker defenders that could "stop" leBron's first step and that's why some teams put a smaller defender on Bron. But that doesn't work well when LeBron simply overpowers them. And that is why LeBron doesn't need a first step as much as MJ did.. he compensates by his bigger size.

I always said I was a Jordan homer. I clearly state that tbh.

What is the definition of faster? I was trying to clarify that, so the first step thing for me is a factor in terms of short are quickness. You can't just put out a statement saying Bron is clearly faster. I forgot what ewing said but I replied to ewing saying Bron is faster in some ways and Jordan in others. Why can't I bring up the first step when prodigy is claiming Bron is faster, and ewing is claiming Jordan is faster. I just tried to bring a balance between the two posters/

Screens were also utilized dependent on the player. If you had Stockton or Mark price there were more screens. These guys were pnr wizards. Weaker ball handlers like Reggie needed more screens on and off the ball. It's not a staple like today's game, but it was used depending on player and context.

Yeah I do agree if Bron has you on his hip you have a physical disadvantage. Smaller goes will get outpowered and at that point bigger guys most likely can't keep up. But getting to that point isn't that easy. Dude backed down from Biz a few times in the playoffs in a clear out iso situation. Biz wanted it but Bron didn't. Bron getting to that point isn't as easy like say Curry, KD, or Kyrie shooting a contested 3 or jumper off the dribble, just my view.

prodigy
04-04-2018, 08:43 AM
I didn't know he was responding to you first off, I was speaking in general and not about your position exclusively.

Now that I am speaking of your position exclusively, while it's your opinion, he is more versatile in that he's bigger so he can guard bigger guys. But that doesn't mean he necessarily does a good job doing it. If he's so hard to score on in terms of versatility how come David West didn't have any problems scoring on him?

If a guy like David West can present him problems for a big man, there is simply no way his versatility extends to guarding Duncan, or KG, or Dirk or any of them.

If I need a guy to stop someone I'm taking MJ over LeBron. If I need one of them to guard a PF or C I'll take LeBron but I certainly won't expect either to shut that guy down.

I watched Lebron shut Blake down in the 4th Q then turn about and shut Schroder down when nobody else could. When he gives 100% on defense lebron can guard just about anyone. Has the speed to stick with anyone and the height and strength to guard any player in todays game. Can he shut everyone down? of course not, the offensive talent today is insane. Muscle memory is at a max right not. people are getting eyed like never before.

As for David West scoring on Lebron i gotta see the plays. Because Lebron switches between Curry, Durant, Thompson and everyone else against the Warriors.

prodigy
04-04-2018, 08:46 AM
So I find it interesting you want to say “oh don’t bring up six rings” (as though if Lebron had seven with inferior stats, you wouldn’t be jumping up and down.. yeah, ok). But then you call Lebron a better passer. Even though Jordan averaged 8 APG in the 89 season, 10.7 for the last 24 games in which Doug Collins started MJ at PG. Jordan once averaged 11.4 APG.. so what happened? Was it that after 89 MJ just couldn’t average high assist numbers because he “couldn’t pass” as well as others?

No. Phil Jackson was hired, wanted an equal opportunity scoring offense and he wanted Pippen to be the main distributor. Jordan could have said no, made “decisions”, flipped his roster midseasons, ended up with three rings and had more points and assists... but instead he listened to Jackson and Jackson’s first year was the only season in which Jordan played a full season in which they didn’t win a ring.

When you say versatile defender you do realize in the 91 finals when Pippen switched onto magic Jordan guarded vlade divac for long strentches while also averaging those 11.4 apg OH and 33 ppg on 55% FG...

You don’t know what you think you know...

So why wouldn't Phil want Jordan to be a playmaker for his teammates? why he pick Pippen to do that over MJ?

Heediot
04-04-2018, 08:48 AM
And your "Jordan uses 1-2 screens in all his highlights" prove my point.. once again. How many screens do you think John Wall, Russ, and the quickest first-step guys use today? A massive amount. Of course MJ didn't need a screen as much.. why would he? In fact, it's better he DOESN'T get a screen because there's such a lack of floor spacing so it didn't make that much sense to use as many screens. When you spread the floor up to the three point line and heck, sometimes a few feet above that, setting screens opens up the floor. Like I told you before and it's 100% a fact, a lack of zone defense made getting to the rim easier and caused more ISO plays.

A lack of zone defense doesn't make it easier to get to the rim. Only in a true zone where the big guy can camp in there without a 3 second violation is it harder to get to the rim and finish. Re-watch the highlights I posted. Driving to the rim wasn't gravy back then because you had to navigate through more traffic because lanes were more clogged with bigs, and bigs could camp down there. In today's game you can manipulate the space to drive more because of more stretch bigs and the 3 second rule. Both eras had reasons why it could be easier to drive. But a lack of handcheck and the 3 second rule makes it easier IMO now. IF you have a guy bodying you up with the ability to maneuver you to the help it's harder. It's harder to get that momentum with the handcheck and then beat the help in the lane too.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 08:49 AM
I watched Lebron shut Blake down in the 4th Q then turn about and shut Schroder down when nobody else could. When he gives 100% on defense lebron can guard just about anyone. Has the speed to stick with anyone and the height and strength to guard any player in todays game. Can he shut everyone down? of course not, the offensive talent today is insane. Muscle memory is at a max right not. people are getting eyed like never before.

As for David West scoring on Lebron i gotta see the plays. Because Lebron switches between Curry, Durant, Thompson and everyone else against the Warriors.

I don't think LeBron has ever guarded West for long stretches of the game.. that's why I asked him to point the games out because from what I remembered, Bosh was the one getting hammered and then when they tried to play small ball, Battier got eaten up helplessly. I am 99% sure LeBron was switching up on PG, Stephenson, and Hill.

ewing
04-04-2018, 08:50 AM
?? with people becoming better and more willing shooters it adds another thing you gotta cover. That always makes defense harder. Thats a fact. What you said is opinion. I never said MJ wouldn't be a good defender today. But you gotta respect the revolution of basketball over the years.

What are you talking about? Yes there are more shooters now but It’s not like defending a guy that can shoot would be a new thing for either guy. Jordan is a more agile defender then Bron. He was a guy that would pick up ball handlers 94 feet. If you wanted one guy to stay with a quick player beyond the 3 point line Jordan is the clear choice. If you wanted one guy to muscle with a Charles Barkley in the post Bron is the clear choice.


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ewing
04-04-2018, 08:53 AM
So why wouldn't Phil want Jordan to be a playmaker for his teammates? why he pick Pippen to do that over MJ?

Bc the team was designed maximize multiple players not just one.


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prodigy
04-04-2018, 08:59 AM
When did he say LeBron had a great first step?

right lol. Plus i wouldn't really mention a quick first step thats getting real detailed. Maybe what you do after that first step is something we can debate.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 09:03 AM
A lack of zone defense doesn't make it easier to get to the rim. Only in a true zone where the big guy can camp in there without a 3 second violation is it harder to get to the rim and finish. Re-watch the highlights I posted. Driving to the rim wasn't gravy back then because you had to navigate through more traffic because lanes were more clogged with bigs, and bigs could camp down there. In today's game you can manipulate the space to drive more because of more stretch bigs and the 3 second rule. Both eras had reasons why it could be easier to drive. But a lack of handcheck and the 3 second rule makes it easier IMO now. IF you have a guy bodying you up with the ability to maneuver you to the help it's harder. It's harder to get that momentum with the handcheck and then beat the help in the lane too.

You're wrong. And I don't wish to continue this if you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact. Do you know how many times the game back then was stopped because teams were called for illegal defense?

You brought up handchecking and that's true. But great players will always find a way to get to the basket regardless. That's why they're great. Do you know how different the game becomes when you're being watched like a hawk and shadowed around the court?

Let me show you two evident examples:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7aDfxVAFNwZKCnp6/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwNy8ECpVEVdbos/giphy.gif

And you never provided that Jordan video but almost always the defenders are too late by the time Jordan gets to the rim because they are out of position to do so.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 09:05 AM
right lol. Plus i wouldn't really mention a quick first step thats getting real detailed. Maybe what you do after that first step is something we can debate.

Why wouldn't a first step count in relation to speed and quickness? Why isn't that a legit rebuttal to a guy claiming one guy is faster?

Heediot
04-04-2018, 09:10 AM
You're wrong. And I don't wish to continue this if you refuse to acknowledge this simple fact. Do you know how many times the game back then was stopped because teams were called for illegal defense?

You brought up handchecking and that's true. But great players will always find a way to get to the basket regardless. That's why they're great. Do you know how different the game becomes when you're being watched like a hawk and shadowed around the court?

Let me show you two evident examples:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7aDfxVAFNwZKCnp6/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohhwNy8ECpVEVdbos/giphy.gif

And you never provided that Jordan video but almost always the defenders are too late by the time Jordan gets to the rim because they are out of position to do so.

Who says there was no illegal defense. It's just called differently. OK you can't literally stand and guard no one. But most of the time the paint is clogged anyways. Yeah there were times illegal defense was called just as much there is now so what? Just because there are guys late in help defense doesn't mean, it's easier to drive. TYou are right that the best guys can get to there spots regardless, because they are skilled/athletic. I think it takes much less in today's game. Both era you can find highlights of late help.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 09:14 AM
Who says there was no illegal defense. It's just called differently. OK you can't literally stand and guard no one. But most of the time the paint is clogged anyways. Yeah there were times illegal defense was called just as much there is now so what? Just because there are guys late in help defense doesn't mean, it's easier to drive. TYou are right that the best guys can get to there spots regardless, because they are skilled/athletic. I think it takes much less in today's game. Both era you can find highlights of late help.

What if I told you Jordan admitted that if teams were able to play zone defense during his team, he wouldn't have had the career he had and that it would've been more difficult? That's why I said you're flat out wrong. Jordan himself would know and he admits to it. "Most of the time the paint is clogged anyways." You make it seem as if they're just standing in the paint. No, they're above the FT line in some cases. By the time you try to help, that extra second gives a player enough time to release his shot already. It's already too late.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 09:18 AM
Someone just find stats on how many guys drove back then vs. now. How many actual finishes in the paint and stuff like that. I'd bet good money there are far more drives and finishes now vs. the past.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 09:25 AM
What if I told you Jordan admitted that if teams were able to play zone defense during his team, he wouldn't have had the career he had and that it would've been more difficult? That's why I said you're flat out wrong. Jordan himself would know and he admits to it. "Most of the time the paint is clogged anyways." You make it seem as if they're just standing in the paint. No, they're above the FT line in some cases. By the time you try to help, that extra second gives a player enough time to release his shot already. It's already too late.

Jordan would need to adapt. He could still get 30 plus easily if Derozan is hitting 25 plus. Jordan has a better jumper and handles to boot. Jordan just needs to adapt to playing off the screen more and making different decisions. Early in the rule changes everyone was adapting to the new zone rules, so strategies to counter weren't as evolved. So what he was saying isn't a lie. With the plethora of ways to attack on the pnr with Jordan's handles and feel for the game, I don't question his ability to light it up. He can control and score the game just as good or better as a Harden or Derzan.

It depends on who you have to guard, if there was a pf with a jumper more lane space was open and help defense becomes more difficult. Not every team had a Oakley, Karl Malone, some guys had two bruisers.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 09:39 AM
That happened to Scottie a lot in the playoffs


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Yet he’s considered the best one on one defender ever yet Monster Mash took him for 50. It was reg season by the way.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 09:42 AM
You tell me how good James' first step is? I even argued that he has a case to be faster vs. Jordan IN STRIDE.

Edit, here I re-watched and added these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZUI6ndTWLw

James utilizes a screen on the vast majoristy of his plays to the rim. He's not as crafty as Jordan or other guys with handles and breaking down guys east west for a pull up. In these highlights the only time the does some of that is only buzzer/shot clock beaters. These highlights are like half Varajao screens lol. From stand he's not the greatest. Everything is also north south, aside from the buzzer shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3WbBYfbc8

Jordan utilizes 1 maybe 2 screens in all the highlights. His versatility, agility, skills, is a lot more demonstrable in the comparison of highlights. There are a lot of highlights of him post baseball and you can see his ability after then too. From standstill and from a first step perspective. Jordan is clearly better, which is my point. Like I said James is more dependent on a screen because once he gets into his 2-3rd step that's when he's deadly. Jordan's first step is so crazy and the respect for his mid range is so high that he can get into his stride or his spots less dependently on a screen.

Got no problem with us saying Jordan had a quicker first step. Implying that Lebron first step is “pedestrian” is just bordering idiotic. Be careful lol

Heediot
04-04-2018, 09:46 AM
Got no problem with us saying Jordan had a quicker first step. Implying that Lebron first step is “pedestrian” is just bordering idiotic. Be careful lol

NBA level, how good do you think it is?

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 09:53 AM
I watched Lebron shut Blake down in the 4th Q then turn about and shut Schroder down when nobody else could. When he gives 100% on defense lebron can guard just about anyone. Has the speed to stick with anyone and the height and strength to guard any player in todays game. Can he shut everyone down? of course not, the offensive talent today is insane. Muscle memory is at a max right not. people are getting eyed like never before.

As for David West scoring on Lebron i gotta see the plays. Because Lebron switches between Curry, Durant, Thompson and everyone else against the Warriors.

I think he made that d west bs up. Never saw d west kill Bron. A play here or there maybe, but not pounding Bron for 30. Dude probably had like 14/9 against Bron and these fools are running with it...Brons standards are so much higher than even Mikes.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 09:57 AM
What are you talking about? Yes there are more shooters now but It’s not like defending a guy that can shoot would be a new thing for either guy. Jordan is a more agile defender then Bron. He was a guy that would pick up ball handlers 94 feet. If you wanted one guy to stay with a quick player beyond the 3 point line Jordan is the clear choice. If you wanted one guy to muscle with a Charles Barkley in the post Bron is the clear choice.


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Actually, Bron did a much better job of guarding Rose, than MJ did against Iverson. Bron can do both. Jordan cannot.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 09:59 AM
Actually, Bron did a much better job of guarding Rose, than MJ did against Iverson. Bron can do both. Jordan cannot.

Guarding rose, is guarding his drives mostly. Guarding AI is more varied. I'm not in the camp of Jordan vs. Bron defensively. Both guys have their strengths and both guys are super elite when they turn it on. It's a wash to me. Both guys have to play with different rules/circumstances.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 10:03 AM
NBA level, how good do you think it is?

He’s unstoppable so for his size his first step is a 10. Never seen anyone his size with a better first, 2nd, 3rd or last step. Not even close

Heediot
04-04-2018, 10:07 AM
He’s unstoppable so for his size his first step is a 10. Never seen anyone his size with a better first, 2nd, 3rd or last step. Not even close

For a big i'll give him props. For a wing I think he is slightly above average.

ewing
04-04-2018, 10:12 AM
Actually, Bron did a much better job of guarding Rose, than MJ did against Iverson. Bron can do both. Jordan cannot.

I guess your basing that on MJ getting crossed up by rookie Iverson. That did happen. Bron might of had a good day against Rose too but overall Micheal was definitely a better one on one defender on perimeter. If you want to claim Bron is better overall bc of help defense, rim protection, strength down or some other reason that’s fine but he not better one on one behind the 3 point line.


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IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 10:13 AM
For a big i'll give him props. For a wing I think he is slightly above average.

You f-in nuts. He was the fastest player in the nba for a few years. He’s unstoppable. That’s all you need to know or focus on.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 10:15 AM
I guess your basing that on MJ getting crossed up by rookie Iverson. That did happen. Bron might of had a good day against Rose too but overall Micheal was definitely a better one on one defender on perimeter. If you want to claim Bron is better overall bc of help defense, rim protection, strength down or some other reason that’s fine but he not better one on one behind the 3 point line.


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Just basing it off what has actually happened and not your wet dream. Give Bron the ability to hand check and he is easily the best one on one defender ever.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 10:20 AM
You f-in nuts. He was the fastest player in the nba for a few years. He’s unstoppable. That’s all you need to know or focus on.

LOL Melo had a better first step. There are a lot of guys with better first steps. Whatever, I'll agree to disagree, you are over-rating his first step to tell you the truth. He has his moments, but I don't see it being elite like your claiming.

He's fast as **** when he gets going though, i'll give you that.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 10:32 AM
LOL Melo had a better first step. There are a lot of guys with better first steps. Whatever, I'll agree to disagree, you are over-rating his first step to tell you the truth. He has his moments, but I don't see it being elite like your claiming.

You speak of basketball and every player as if it's absolute and not situational. Not every first step is as quick as the other.

In LeBron's case, his defender gives him more space because they dare him to shoot or they don't want LeBron to drive to the basket. This means he's not going to use his first step as quick as he can.

In Melo's case, his defender is giving him less space so Melo needs to use a quicker first step to get to the basket because his defender wouldn't have enough time to react and stay in front of him.

A lot of a player's movement depends on how they are being guarded.

But I get what is happening here: You are judging LeBron at age 33 instead of when he was at his physical prime. There is definitely a difference in first step quickness as he aged.

Heediot
04-04-2018, 10:44 AM
You speak of basketball and every player as if it's absolute and not situational. Not every first step is as quick as the other.

In LeBron's case, his defender gives him more space because they dare him to shoot or they don't want LeBron to drive to the basket. This means he's not going to use his first step as quick as he can.

In Melo's case, his defender is giving him less space so Melo needs to use a quicker first step to get to the basket because his defender wouldn't have enough time to react and stay in front of him.

A lot of a player's movement depends on how they are being guarded.

But I get what is happening here: You are judging LeBron at age 33 instead of when he was at his physical prime. There is definitely a difference in first step quickness as he aged.

I just think short burst and stop and go isn't James strength. Yeah people get defended differently. I think Melo knows how to get separation on the perimeter better with his feet regardless of how the defense is playing him. Melo isn't even fast, he just has a solid first step and knows how to move his feet and handle the ball better in certain spots. He loves hims jumper too much though. And after the first step he isn't even in the vicinity of James.

ewing
04-04-2018, 10:48 AM
Just basing it off what has actually happened and not your wet dream. Give Bron the ability to hand check and he is easily the best one on one defender ever.

No you aren’t and no he isn’t . You are selecting one play and acting like it means something. As for Bron he’s never even been DPOY and his teams seem to not care about defense at this stage. Best ever?


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Heediot
04-04-2018, 10:52 AM
I am judging him in his physical prime. That Video that was posted was showing james until the end of his Heat says, which was his physical prime.

Anthony Mason, Larry Johnson, Beasley are somewhat comparable in terms of height and weight to James. Everyone has their strengths and differences.

LJ was post player that could jump out the gym. Became more of a jump shooter when his back ****ed up.
Mason was a ball handler, who also had a solid post game and jumper. More of a versatile player offensively who was a really good defender.
Beasley is a pure scorer with the best natural shot, and he could move pretty good for his size. Just lack of IQ and work ethic. I think like Melo his face up game is more varied vs. James, because he could move differently from James' strengths.

DanG
04-04-2018, 10:56 AM
I'm a point where anything what he does is not even a surprise anymore. I mean 27/9/9 at 33 years old. GOAT for me.

And I do not think it's close even right now who is the best player in the league. Kevin Durant is an unstoppable scorer and a great defender in a perfect system. But I'd say in terms of impact, the ability to control the game from start to finish etc. LeBron is on another level.

Yes he had his black mark in the Dallas series. But after that, the mentally strong LeBron is the GOAT.

valade16
04-04-2018, 12:25 PM
Actually, Bron did a much better job of guarding Rose, than MJ did against Iverson. Bron can do both. Jordan cannot.

This is the problem with LeBron defenders in this argument. They've only ever seen 96-98 Jordan and think that was how good he was from 86-93.

prodigy
04-04-2018, 01:14 PM
Why wouldn't a first step count in relation to speed and quickness? Why isn't that a legit rebuttal to a guy claiming one guy is faster?

Its really pointless. Both have good first steps and lebron just goes right through people LMAO! first step don't matter 2 much for lebron. plus like others have said hes 260 pounds. I think overall Lebron is faster. but sure for a quick burst the guy 40 pounds lighter should have an edge. I just don't think either guy can be stopped from that standpoint.

valade16
04-04-2018, 01:17 PM
Its really pointless. Both have good first steps and lebron just goes right through people LMAO! first step don't matter 2 much for lebron. plus like others have said hes 260 pounds. I think overall Lebron is faster. but sure for a quick burst the guy 40 pounds lighter should have an edge. I just don't think either guy can be stopped from that standpoint.

We also have to keep in mind his first step is not nearly as quick today than it was 5-10 years ago. So we have to remember how quick his first step was back then, just as we have to remember who quick MJ's first step was in the early 90's as opposed to the late 90's.

LeBron had a very quick first step in his athletic peak.

prodigy
04-04-2018, 01:19 PM
Bc the team was designed maximize multiple players not just one.


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I'm going off what the guy i quoted said. He said Phil wanted Pippen to be the passer. U got the wrong guy here bud.

BoilermakerD
04-04-2018, 03:39 PM
So why wouldn't Phil want Jordan to be a playmaker for his teammates? why he pick Pippen to do that over MJ?

Ok you’re doing what a lot of Kobe/Lebron fans do. You said “a playmaker” as though Jordan wasn’t also the playmaker on the team.

You look at 89, Pippen’s second year in the league ... Jordan averages 8.0 APG and Pippen 3.5. Jackson came in, wanted an equal opportunity offense and for Pippen to distribute the basketball because that’s what they were going to need to do to beat the Pistons (and I’m sure Jackson presumed... other teams who would be as good as the Pistons in the future). And that goes back to 1989 when Jackson was an assistant and the Pistons would make Pippen beat them.. and be couldn’t.

So from 90-93 here was the assist per game differential:

Jordan +0.5
Pippen +0.7
Pippen +0.9
Pippen +0.8

And then Jordan led the Bulls in APG from 96-98. So it’s not like, as you put it.... Pippen was “a playmaker” and Jordan wasn’t. He was still leading the NBA in scoring and steals.

This idea that Lebron is a “better passer” is silly. Jordan chose the team by allowing responsibilities to be split ...

But when Pippen guarded Magic in the 1991 Finals... Jordan, while guarding Vlade Divac (and Magic) averaged 11.4 APG... higher than any average Lebron has submitted in a Finals. This while averaging 33 PPG on 55% for the series.

You’re talking about a guy who averaged 11.4 APG in one finals win, 35.8 PPG while shooting 42.9% from three the next year, and then 41.0 PPG on 50.8% in the following finals ...

So these ideas you guys get are just laughable...

A couple points that I think show the greatness of Jackson’s idea, and why Jordan listening to him meant WINNING.

John paxson led all guards from the field in 1991, shooting 54.8%. Bill Cartwright was the only starter not to shoot 50% (49.0).

In 1993, BJ Armstrong led the NBA in 3FG% 45.3%.

In 1992, Horace Grant shot a blistering 57.8% from the floor.

So that’s whats called context. There’s all the contact in the world for Magic, Bird, Bryant and James. If Jordan won a series, Nick Wright knows who was hurt on his opponents team and how bad. Jordan only beat Magic cause Worthy was a cripple and Magic was ancient at age 31. But context can be used to show that Jordan demonstrated he could do a thing, but for the sake of winning relinquished that thing.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 05:27 PM
Love when people type nonsense and perceive it as truth. LeBron not a better passer than Jordan? Even Skip Bayless says he is...

ewing
04-04-2018, 05:43 PM
Love when people type nonsense and perceive it as truth. LeBron not a better passer than Jordan? Even Skip Bayless says he is...

Well if Skip Bayless says so


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IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 08:41 PM
This is the problem with LeBron defenders in this argument. They've only ever seen 96-98 Jordan and think that was how good he was from 86-93.

Wrong buddy. They are just comparable athletically. Do you want me to show highlights of Tim Hardaway breaking Jordan down like a $2 dollar

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 08:46 PM
We also have to keep in mind his first step is not nearly as quick today than it was 5-10 years ago. So we have to remember how quick his first step was back then, just as we have to remember who quick MJ's first step was in the early 90's as opposed to the late 90's.

LeBron had a very quick first step in his athletic peak.

Exactly. It’s just not as quick as Mike’s...but still very quick.

IKnowHoops
04-04-2018, 08:48 PM
D Wade had a quicker first step than Bron as well...no doubt

valade16
04-04-2018, 08:54 PM
Wrong buddy. They are just comparable athletically. Do you want me to show highlights of Tim Hardaway breaking Jordan down like a $2 dollar

All you've done is confirm that you didn't watch MJ play pre-96.

MJ in 96 was not nearly as athletic as pre-retirement MJ.

As for your Hardaway boast, sure, show me the highlights of him doing it before he retired the first time.

ewing
04-04-2018, 09:32 PM
Wrong buddy. They are just comparable athletically. Do you want me to show highlights of Tim Hardaway breaking Jordan down like a $2 dollar

So you can find a highlight where he got beat off the dribble by 2 guys that have historically good crossovers? How about I show you Shaq dunking on Hakeem. Or Bonds striking out verse Clemens. The guy was a 9 time first teamer and DPOY.

ewing
04-04-2018, 09:33 PM
All you've done is confirm that you didn't watch MJ play pre-96.

MJ in 96 was not nearly as athletic as pre-retirement MJ.

As for your Hardaway boast, sure, show me the highlights of him doing it before he retired the first time.

He probably did. I'm sure Kyrie can cross up Leonard sometimes too. So what? The utep two step was no joke. It’s actually impressive that these guys pulling a move in a regular season game 25 years later is notable. Maybe he was an even better defender then I am giving him credit for

WaDe03
04-04-2018, 11:03 PM
D Wade had a quicker first step than Bron as well...no doubt

Very true, Wade was the fastest player in the league at one point.

Heediot
04-05-2018, 09:20 AM
Very true, Wade was the fastest player in the league at one point.

Wade was never faster then Bron if full stride. Like MJ he had a better first step.

A guy like Jeremy Lin has a crazy first step, but in reality he's not close to the fastest guy in the nba. Not saying Wade is as slow as him. But I don't think he could beat D Rose, Westbrook, Wall or Bron in a race.

prodigy
04-05-2018, 10:04 AM
Ok you’re doing what a lot of Kobe/Lebron fans do. You said “a playmaker” as though Jordan wasn’t also the playmaker on the team.

You look at 89, Pippen’s second year in the league ... Jordan averages 8.0 APG and Pippen 3.5. Jackson came in, wanted an equal opportunity offense and for Pippen to distribute the basketball because that’s what they were going to need to do to beat the Pistons (and I’m sure Jackson presumed... other teams who would be as good as the Pistons in the future). And that goes back to 1989 when Jackson was an assistant and the Pistons would make Pippen beat them.. and be couldn’t.

So from 90-93 here was the assist per game differential:

Jordan +0.5
Pippen +0.7
Pippen +0.9
Pippen +0.8

And then Jordan led the Bulls in APG from 96-98. So it’s not like, as you put it.... Pippen was “a playmaker” and Jordan wasn’t. He was still leading the NBA in scoring and steals.

This idea that Lebron is a “better passer” is silly. Jordan chose the team by allowing responsibilities to be split ...

But when Pippen guarded Magic in the 1991 Finals... Jordan, while guarding Vlade Divac (and Magic) averaged 11.4 APG... higher than any average Lebron has submitted in a Finals. This while averaging 33 PPG on 55% for the series.

You’re talking about a guy who averaged 11.4 APG in one finals win, 35.8 PPG while shooting 42.9% from three the next year, and then 41.0 PPG on 50.8% in the following finals ...

So these ideas you guys get are just laughable...

A couple points that I think show the greatness of Jackson’s idea, and why Jordan listening to him meant WINNING.

John paxson led all guards from the field in 1991, shooting 54.8%. Bill Cartwright was the only starter not to shoot 50% (49.0).

In 1993, BJ Armstrong led the NBA in 3FG% 45.3%.

In 1992, Horace Grant shot a blistering 57.8% from the floor.

So that’s whats called context. There’s all the contact in the world for Magic, Bird, Bryant and James. If Jordan won a series, Nick Wright knows who was hurt on his opponents team and how bad. Jordan only beat Magic cause Worthy was a cripple and Magic was ancient at age 31. But context can be used to show that Jordan demonstrated he could do a thing, but for the sake of winning relinquished that thing.

I was just going off what the guy i quoted said. you got the wrong guy here bud. nice work though. Lebrons still a better passer and playmaker.

prodigy
04-05-2018, 10:19 AM
No you aren’t and no he isn’t . You are selecting one play and acting like it means something. As for Bron he’s never even been DPOY and his teams seem to not care about defense at this stage. Best ever?


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Jordan had some great defensive players on his team. Lebron has not. even now like you brought up cavs still don't have good defensive players and lebrons been in league 15-16 years now. Seems you are giving Jordan credit for the front office success.

Lebron does get very disrespected when it comes to defense awards. He had 5 1st teams and 1 2nd team. But theres guys whos only job is to play defense lol. So i'm not going to fault Lebron for having to be the best scorer, rebounder and passer just to give him team a chance to win. He's asked to do more for cavs then MJ was for Bulls. I think you would agree with that. Lebron should have 5-7 more MVP's also lol. at least 3 more. But he's been taken for granted.

prodigy
04-05-2018, 10:26 AM
Very true, Wade was the fastest player in the league at one point.

When i saw wade's name mentioned i thought about you lol. sure enough few posts down there you are. good stuff.

ewing
04-05-2018, 10:51 AM
Jordan had some great defensive players on his team. Lebron has not. even now like you brought up cavs still don't have good defensive players and lebrons been in league 15-16 years now. Seems you are giving Jordan credit for the front office success.

Lebron does get very disrespected when it comes to defense awards. He had 5 1st teams and 1 2nd team. But theres guys whos only job is to play defense lol. So i'm not going to fault Lebron for having to be the best scorer, rebounder and passer just to give him team a chance to win. He's asked to do more for cavs then MJ was for Bulls. I think you would agree with that. Lebron should have 5-7 more MVP's also lol. at least 3 more. But he's been taken for granted.

Poor LeBron. Always disrespected and stuck with subpar teammates. It’s like the lord is testing him.

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WaDe03
04-05-2018, 11:15 AM
When i saw wade's name mentioned i thought about you lol. sure enough few posts down there you are. good stuff.

Wade doesn't get much credit here for whatever reason so I comment when he does

WaDe03
04-05-2018, 11:16 AM
Wade was never faster then Bron if full stride. Like MJ he had a better first step.

A guy like Jeremy Lin has a crazy first step, but in reality he's not close to the fastest guy in the nba. Not saying Wade is as slow as him. But I don't think he could beat D Rose, Westbrook, Wall or Bron in a race.

Very debatable, you should go back and watch some young Wade highlights.

ewing
04-05-2018, 11:18 AM
Very debatable, you should go back and watch some young Wade highlights.

I never liked Wade but dude was called Flash for a reason


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Heediot
04-05-2018, 11:35 AM
Very debatable, you should go back and watch some young Wade highlights.

He was fast, but I don't think he was ever the fastest. I mean he's probably elite or borderline elite at worst in that category so it's not a big deal. I don't think he was ever the fastest in the league at any point. His speed/quickness was a weapon for him though.

Tony Parker and AI were faster before him, Bron, RW, Rose (before injury), Wall during and after he was drafted. Guys like Schroeder are fast as **** too.

IKnowHoops
04-05-2018, 12:06 PM
All you've done is confirm that you didn't watch MJ play pre-96.

MJ in 96 was not nearly as athletic as pre-retirement MJ.

As for your Hardaway boast, sure, show me the highlights of him doing it before he retired the first time.

Whenever somebody refers to me as a fanboy I laugh. Take this post for instance. This fan of Mike is trying to imply or actually believes that Jordan never got beat off the dribble...or that there is no film of it? You guys need to calm down. I know you love Mike, but come back to reality. He got beat all the time. He was still top 3 one on one defenders ever.

valade16
04-05-2018, 12:23 PM
Whenever somebody refers to me as a fanboy I laugh. Take this post for instance. This fan of Mike is trying to imply or actually believes that Jordan never got beat off the dribble...or that there is no film of it? You guys need to calm down. I know you love Mike, but come back to reality. He got beat all the time. He was still top 3 one on one defenders ever.

I never implied nor believed that at all, you were the one who said you were going to post the video, I simply asked you to post it. I was illustrating that you are probably basing your opinion of MJ's athleticism off his 96-98 years and your video was from then.

I'm sure MJ got beat multiple times. LeBron has got beat multiple times. If you are now arguing it's an irrelevant point to being a top 3 defender ever, then why even bring it up?

Answer: you need to somehow denigrate MJ to prop up LeBron. No need to do that, we know LeBron is a fantastic defender, even if he wasn't quite as good as MJ.

valade16
04-05-2018, 12:35 PM
Jordan had some great defensive players on his team. Lebron has not. even now like you brought up cavs still don't have good defensive players and lebrons been in league 15-16 years now. Seems you are giving Jordan credit for the front office success.

Lebron does get very disrespected when it comes to defense awards. He had 5 1st teams and 1 2nd team. But theres guys whos only job is to play defense lol. So i'm not going to fault Lebron for having to be the best scorer, rebounder and passer just to give him team a chance to win. He's asked to do more for cavs then MJ was for Bulls. I think you would agree with that. Lebron should have 5-7 more MVP's also lol. at least 3 more. But he's been taken for granted.

He's asked to do more for the Cavs than MJ was during his championship years, but MJ was asked to do just as much in the 80's. in 1988 he was asked to be pretty much the only offensive weapon (25 PPG and next leading scorer was 13 PPG) and guard every team's best player and he won MVP and DPOY. In 89 he was asked to be the Bulls primary scorer (32.5 PPG next most was 14.4 PPG), primary ballhandler (8.0 APG, next most was 4.8 APG), and guard the other team's best player (All-NBA 1st team.

It really does seem like every time someone talks about MJ in an MJ/Bron debate they only ever bring up 96-98 MJ.

IKnowHoops
04-05-2018, 10:41 PM
I never implied nor believed that at all, you were the one who said you were going to post the video, I simply asked you to post it. I was illustrating that you are probably basing your opinion of MJ's athleticism off his 96-98 years and your video was from then.

I'm sure MJ got beat multiple times. LeBron has got beat multiple times. If you are now arguing it's an irrelevant point to being a top 3 defender ever, then why even bring it up?

Answer: you need to somehow denigrate MJ to prop up LeBron. No need to do that, we know LeBron is a fantastic defender, even if he wasn't quite as good as MJ.

Hey bruh, be seen both careers. Just cause I said Ivo put him on skates, u got upset. I’m stating facts. You got opinions.Tim Hardaway toyed with Mike after he tore his ACL. Stop trying to protect him.

valade16
04-06-2018, 08:03 PM
Hey bruh, be seen both careers. Just cause I said Ivo put him on skates, u got upset. I’m stating facts. You got opinions.Tim Hardaway toyed with Mike after he tore his ACL. Stop trying to protect him.

No, you said you would post video of Tim Hardaway crossing him up and I said post that from pre first retirement (which you still haven't done by the way).

Again, AI crossed MJ up post 96. You keep saying that you watched MJ pre-96 and the only thing you talk about is MJ post-96. So I doubt you actually did watch pre-93 MJ.

IKnowHoops
04-07-2018, 12:19 AM
No, you said you would post video of Tim Hardaway crossing him up and I said post that from pre first retirement (which you still haven't done by the way).

Again, AI crossed MJ up post 96. You keep saying that you watched MJ pre-96 and the only thing you talk about is MJ post-96. So I doubt you actually did watch pre-93 MJ.

I said I’d post Tim crossing him. You stipulated it had to be before his retirement. I laugh because if you know anything, Mike had a better chance against Tim after he came back because Tim tore his ACL. But then Tim still crossed him post ACL.

IKnowHoops
04-07-2018, 12:34 AM
No, you said you would post video of Tim Hardaway crossing him up and I said post that from pre first retirement (which you still haven't done by the way).

Again, AI crossed MJ up post 96. You keep saying that you watched MJ pre-96 and the only thing you talk about is MJ post-96. So I doubt you actually did watch pre-93 MJ.

But here, I'll bless you with this. Pre-93 so you can feel comfortable, at the 3:38 mark A pretty overaweight charles Barkley shakes mike easily and then Dunks on him dismisively. I tend to think that would not of been so easy against Lebron, but what do I know, Im an homer, and for, you Mike didn't get beat pre 93. Ive watched more Jordan than you, and more of that era. The man is 6'8" 260, is the single greatest physical specimen ever and is doing things no-one has ever done before. Take a step back and understand that in this reality, that is enough to be thought of GOAT. You dont have to agree, but dont get upset. Im fine with you thinking Jordan is better. But if you want to say I didn't watch young Jordan, because I said he had a tough time with Ivo, I say you didn't watch Jordan, because he's been shook by less at a younger age. But only a pretender who really didn't watch young jordan, who has some imaginary opinion about how young Mike could not be shook ever,(aka misinformed fanboy) who wants to try and blind check someone about not watching Jordan. Wrong guy. Watch this. How old are you mr blind check?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcTe_ach2MU

Excuses coming for mike in 3, 2,...

ewing
04-07-2018, 12:41 AM
But here, I'll bless you with this. Pre-93 so you can feel comfortable, A pretty overaweight charles Barkley shakes mike easily and then Dunks on him dismisively. I tend to think that would not of been so easy agains Lebron, but what do I know, Im an homer, and you Mike can't get beat pre 93. Ive watched more Jordan than you, and more of that era.

Excuses coming for mike in 3, 2,...

Nvm

hallzi43
04-07-2018, 01:54 PM
This conversation has gotten real lol if we are using that Barkley/MJ play as some sort of defensive playmaker conversation. Actually a little embarrassing that after pages of talk that was what came of it.

Nobody is a defensive god. And Lebron can certainly turn on his athleticism and beat guys defensively when he feels the need. Jordan didn't do that though. He was much more the competitor than Lebron has ever been. Lebron should be the best ever. The guy is a freak of nature. Anyone who thinks MJ has more athleticism than Lebron is just absolutely fooling themselves.

BoilermakerD
04-07-2018, 02:07 PM
Actually, Bron did a much better job of guarding Rose, than MJ did against Iverson. Bron can do both. Jordan cannot.

This is yet again one of the embarrassing oversights when people talk about Jordan and overemphasize his career from 95-98. Because media exploded in 1996, people tend to act like 95-98 IS Jordan. If you're younger, it's likely all you've ever seen. Remember, if you were around in say.. 1988, and you didn't live in Chicago, unless you had a satellite dish, which usually only affluent people had... you only saw Jordan maybe 10-15 times a year. And the best things he usually did were on a Tuesday night on Sportschannel in the middle of February. And if you weren't in Chicago, you didn't see it.

When Lebron James guarded Derrick Rose, Lebron was 26 years old. When Michael Jordan got crossed over by Allen Iverson, Michael was 34 years old.

But keep acting like any comparison of Bryant v. Jordan or Lebron v. Jordan is anything but disingenuous propaganda with the idea that if you prop up James (or if you propped up Bryant in 2008), you make more money on everything from sneakers to beverages to vendor sales to everything.. than if you let the truth be what it is.

Once again, if anyone wants to talk to someone who was there.. and someone who readily admits that Lebron is the only player to have everything a player needs to even make this a discussion.. I'll school you guys on yet another aspect.

Just like Jordan relinquished primary point responsibilities to Pippen, so that Jordan could focus on scoring (yet not scoring too much) and doing all the little things that had to be done on offense.. because that's what Phil Jackson wanted him to do (keep in mind that Jordan would often drive and find Pippen, and by the time two defenders had run to Jordan and then another defender sold out on Pippen, Pippen would often find a wide open Grant or Paxson for an easy bucket. That's why Grant shot 57.8% in 1992 and why Paxson led all guards in FG% with an insane 55% in 1991)...

Because Jordan averaged 30 PPG and because they wanted Jordan to be the main attack man, if the Bulls decided to use a swing man to pressure the point, they used Pippen. Pippen was younger and had longer arms.. and it was smart by Jackson and the architect of the Bulls "doberman defense" Johnny Bach... to not use the primary scorer to run a PG ragged. Can you go find tons of highlights of Jordan doing things like tormenting Sidney Moncrief in game 3 of the 1985 first round? Yes. Are you going to find entire series in the championship years where they put Jordan on the PG? No... they didn't need to.

Jordan's defensive dominance was two fold. And from this strategy, it's apparent that the Bulls staff would have refrained from doing anything different.

1. The guy he was guarding was going to shoot a low percentage and be lost offensively.

2. He's probably the best combination of defending passing lanes and coming in for help defense block shots who will ever play...

This is key, because the idea was that Pippen's arm length had such a great diameter that Grant and Jordan really had to cover a very small area on press defense to get a steal. You'll see this when Pippen comes off his man and jumps John Starks in the 93 ECF and Starks throws it away, because had he not thrown away it was going to be a steal and a drive the other way. Mike Fratello says "and Riley is upset because John Starks seemed to lose an understanding that Pippen will leave his defender and jump the ball" or something to that effect.

Opposing SG scoring outputs in the NBA finals
1991 Byron Scott 4.5 PPG 27.8% FG 20.0% 3FG
1992 Clyde Drexler 24.8 PPG 40.7% FG 15.0% 3FG
1993 Dan Majerle 17.2 PPG 44.3% FG 43.6% 3FG
1996 Hersey Hawkins 13.3 PPG 45.5% FG 27.3% 3FG
1997 Jeff Hornacek 12.0 PPG 37.9% FG 37.5% 3FG
1998 Jeff Hornacek 10.7 PPG 41.1% FG 33.3% 3FG

You know what you don't see? You don't see anyone shooting 61% on Lebron like Kawhi Leonard did in the 2014 NBA Finals... You look at the only elite player on that list, Clyde Drexler, and he was 47% from the floor that year and 33.7% from three. In fact, that was the thing that set MJ off in game one.. they said Drexler was a better 3FG shooter... but with Jordan guarding him he went from 33.7% from three to 15%?!? A hall of famer, top 50 player in 1996 and probably what.. the 3rd or 4th best SG who ever lived?

Chronz
04-07-2018, 08:40 PM
It's not about if everyone uses screens. It's James pedestrian first step that makes him more dependent on a screen to maximize his speed. Jordan can hit his speed a lot faster. Jordan can break his man down without a screen a tonne better versus James. James speed offensively, is best seen in transition or after a screen is set.
James would agree with you, he had that burst in his youth but he said a long time agothat he doesn't beat teams with his first step, that its his 2nd step that kills you. He's only gotten slower since then but he's refined his post, off the ball play since.

I get what you're saying tho, it was the difference between tmac in Houston vs Orlando. He admitted he had lost a step and sure enough he relied extensively on ball screens. It happened to cp3 too.

Chronz
04-07-2018, 08:44 PM
Who says there was no illegal defense. It's just called differently. OK you can't literally stand and guard no one. But most of the time the paint is clogged anyways. Yeah there were times illegal defense was called just as much there is now so what? Just because there are guys late in help defense doesn't mean, it's easier to drive. TYou are right that the best guys can get to there spots regardless, because they are skilled/athletic. I think it takes much less in today's game. Both era you can find highlights of late help.

Well coaches have commented on how teams would put Rodman near the 3pt line to keep their bigs out of the paint... could you ever imagine that having any sort of strategic advantage today?

But the league adjusted and we now have the spacing no other era enjoyed. The paint is wide open today.

valade16
04-09-2018, 12:45 PM
But here, I'll bless you with this. Pre-93 so you can feel comfortable, at the 3:38 mark A pretty overaweight charles Barkley shakes mike easily and then Dunks on him dismisively. I tend to think that would not of been so easy against Lebron, but what do I know, Im an homer, and for, you Mike didn't get beat pre 93. Ive watched more Jordan than you, and more of that era. The man is 6'8" 260, is the single greatest physical specimen ever and is doing things no-one has ever done before. Take a step back and understand that in this reality, that is enough to be thought of GOAT. You dont have to agree, but dont get upset. Im fine with you thinking Jordan is better. But if you want to say I didn't watch young Jordan, because I said he had a tough time with Ivo, I say you didn't watch Jordan, because he's been shook by less at a younger age. But only a pretender who really didn't watch young jordan, who has some imaginary opinion about how young Mike could not be shook ever,(aka misinformed fanboy) who wants to try and blind check someone about not watching Jordan. Wrong guy. Watch this. How old are you mr blind check?

Excuses coming for mike in 3, 2,...

Well that is a blatant lie.

MJ was crossed up by Charles Barkley, one of the top 20 greatest players of all-time and one of the top 10 greatest offensive players ever. What a bum.

Here's an entire montage of LeBron getting crossed up. The first two guys are Rudy Gay and Avery Bradley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbY508ukUAs

Sorry, getting crossed up by Avery Bradley WAY worse than getting crossed up by Charles.

The difference here is while I acknowledge MJ got beat but was a superior defender pre-93, you don't think LeBron ever got bested. Well have fun watching LeBron go ice skating for 4 minutes (make sure you watch until 1:30 to see Miami LeBron get crossed by a white guy).

ewing
04-09-2018, 01:15 PM
Well that is a blatant lie.

MJ was crossed up by Charles Barkley, one of the top 20 greatest players of all-time and one of the top 10 greatest offensive players ever. What a bum.

Here's an entire montage of LeBron getting crossed up. The first two guys are Rudy Gay and Avery Bradley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbY508ukUAs

Sorry, getting crossed up by Avery Bradley WAY worse than getting crossed up by Charles.

The difference here is while I acknowledge MJ got beat but was a superior defender pre-93, you don't think LeBron ever got bested. Well have fun watching LeBron go ice skating for 4 minutes (make sure you watch until 1:30 to see Miami LeBron get crossed by a white guy).


:laugh::laugh::laugh: he got shook by Reddick!

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 06:20 PM
Well that is a blatant lie.

MJ was crossed up by Charles Barkley, one of the top 20 greatest players of all-time and one of the top 10 greatest offensive players ever. What a bum.

Here's an entire montage of LeBron getting crossed up. The first two guys are Rudy Gay and Avery Bradley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbY508ukUAs

Sorry, getting crossed up by Avery Bradley WAY worse than getting crossed up by Charles.

The difference here is while I acknowledge MJ got beat but was a superior defender pre-93, you don't think LeBron ever got bested. Well have fun watching LeBron go ice skating for 4 minutes (make sure you watch until 1:30 to see Miami LeBron get crossed by a white guy).

You asked for it? As if it didn’t exist. I didn’t ask, because I know it exists lol. Waste your time.

IKnowHoops
04-09-2018, 06:21 PM
Well that is a blatant lie.

MJ was crossed up by Charles Barkley, one of the top 20 greatest players of all-time and one of the top 10 greatest offensive players ever. What a bum.

Here's an entire montage of LeBron getting crossed up. The first two guys are Rudy Gay and Avery Bradley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbY508ukUAs

Sorry, getting crossed up by Avery Bradley WAY worse than getting crossed up by Charles.

The difference here is while I acknowledge MJ got beat but was a superior defender pre-93, you don't think LeBron ever got bested. Well have fun watching LeBron go ice skating for 4 minutes (make sure you watch until 1:30 to see Miami LeBron get crossed by a white guy).

How old are you? I’m 39

valade16
04-09-2018, 06:25 PM
You asked for it? As if it didn’t exist. I didn’t ask, because I know it exists lol. Waste your time.

That appears to be all I've done if you are dismissing the original point you tried to make.

So if you don't think a video of a player getting crossed up means anything, why even make that point?

Vee-Rex
04-09-2018, 06:38 PM
Well that is a blatant lie.

MJ was crossed up by Charles Barkley, one of the top 20 greatest players of all-time and one of the top 10 greatest offensive players ever. What a bum.

Here's an entire montage of LeBron getting crossed up. The first two guys are Rudy Gay and Avery Bradley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbY508ukUAs

Sorry, getting crossed up by Avery Bradley WAY worse than getting crossed up by Charles.

The difference here is while I acknowledge MJ got beat but was a superior defender pre-93, you don't think LeBron ever got bested. Well have fun watching LeBron go ice skating for 4 minutes (make sure you watch until 1:30 to see Miami LeBron get crossed by a white guy).

I refuse to believe that that is real footage.

LeBron has never been crossed. Looks like computer animation to me.