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JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2018, 11:27 AM
I'm dumbfounded by the fact that This guy is simutansouly setting oldest and youngest records in the same season.

He's been averaging nearly a 30-point triple double since the All-Star break at 33.


Given the current media climate, and how critical it is of athletes, and dismissive it can be of their accomplishments, it seems like it may be a while before most people truly apprciate what LBJ is pulling off here.

Interesting side note: He led the league in minutes played twice: once at 20, and one at 32.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2018, 12:26 PM
Who on earth could come in and play 40 mpg at age 18, never miss time, play deep into the playoffs forever, and still be dominating 14 seasons later? Seriously, the dude is a cyborg. His 2011 Mavs series is all that holds him back from GOAT. Them's the breaks..

IKnowHoops
03-27-2018, 12:55 PM
I'm dumbfounded by the fact that This guy is simutansouly setting oldest and youngest records in the same season.

He's been averaging nearly a 30-point triple double since the All-Star break at 33.


Given the current media climate, and how critical it is of athletes, and dismissive it can be of their accomplishments, it seems like it may be a while before most people truly apprciate what LBJ is pulling off here.

Interesting side note: He led the league in minutes played twice: once at 20, and one at 32.

Iím not, Heís GOAT

Vee-Rex
03-27-2018, 01:24 PM
Iím not, Heís GOAT

yep, he's GOAT for me too.

IKnowHoops
03-27-2018, 02:46 PM
yep, he's GOAT for me too.

Jordanís career and team accomplishments are amazing, and his 10 or so scorin* titles are just ****, but what Bron has done and is still doing and is going to do, is more nuts. Glad I was able to witness him and Barry Sanders whole careers.

Chronz
03-27-2018, 03:21 PM
He is the alpha and the omega

valade16
03-27-2018, 03:22 PM
What he's doing is incredible, but he's not GOAT over MJ to me.

archdevil84
03-27-2018, 03:24 PM
the funny thing is that he is 33 and presumably not done for another 3 years of these ridiculous performances he's been putting up and even then who knows when he will finally slow down. Might even be able to do it when he's 38 lol. This man is insane

More-Than-Most
03-27-2018, 03:27 PM
yep, he's GOAT for me too.

yes same here... hes goat to me as well. He did choke the mavs series and Jordan never did but Jordan would never have beaten a team as good as the warriors down 3-1 esp

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2018, 05:01 PM
Who on earth could come in and play 40 mpg at age 18, never miss time, play deep into the playoffs forever, and still be dominating 14 seasons later? Seriously, the dude is a cyborg. His 2011 Mavs series is all that holds him back from GOAT. Them's the breaks..

if 1 series is holding him back or from others saying it then I think they(and possibly u) need to take a break and watch something else because there is no way in the world 1 finals blunder is going to hurt one of the most dominant players ever vs comparing him to another of the same ilk

Russell won all the rings and nobody in their right bball mind would ever think he was more dominant on a solo level than Wilt, so if you or others feel like his cyborg abilities are this serious then crown him

its like me holding Jordan first 6 seasons against him as a total, even then to me he was better/dominant player than those 2 who basically won all the 80's rings, plus Jordan team wasn't ready to compete for titles so it would take a while, same as with Bron when they first entered ,usually outside of Kobe a lottery(and top 3 mostly) picked player goes to a bottom feed team

its the reason why I put players like Bron and AI and Wilt on high level, they took bottom feeders and made them legit/relevant, I don't think non bball people realize how hard that is, the ballers respect it to the highest regard

I said Lebron would be one of the probably 10 best ever his rookie year based on how the media ranks, I had him in my circle before he stepped foot in the league, when I saw him in highschool on espn

FlashBolt
03-27-2018, 05:06 PM
Check the list of the best NBA players today.. go down it and you'll notice all of them have been injured and or sit games to rest an injury. LeBron is always healthy.. for 15 NBA seasons and constant deep NBA Finals appearances, he's seriously never got injured. I see KD get injured with ankles, knees, and rib issues. Curry is always out for an injury these days. The most impressive thing is not the statistical feats but the fact this guy is always on the court.

FlashBolt
03-27-2018, 05:07 PM
the funny thing is that he is 33 and presumably not done for another 3 years of these ridiculous performances he's been putting up and even then who knows when he will finally slow down. Might even be able to do it when he's 38 lol. This man is insane

It absolutely is. It's by far the greatest athletic feat IMO. How many games has this guy played and never gotten severely injured? It's remarkable. Almost every other game, someone is injured. The guy does the most, plays the most, and is out there the most. Amazing..

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2018, 05:12 PM
yes same here... hes goat to me as well. He did choke the mavs series and Jordan never did but Jordan would never have beaten a team as good as the warriors down 3-1 esp

if Jordan had faced the same circumstance with suspensions I am pretty sure he would have slayed those dubs, question would be could Pippen do what Irving did scoring wise, I doubt it but his 2way play would sure take out Klay and contain at times KD. Jordan would feast on Curry and whoever else you threw his way

Rodman would foul Green out or have him in foul trouble every game, early

there is no goat, and if it were one it would start and with Russell and his 13 rings in 15yrs from ncaa+nba combined, doesn't get any 'greater' than that if you add on his player/coach accolade

can you imagine how 'great' Bonds would be if he had 5 rings instead of Jeter? Jeter was great Bonds/Griffey were just better/more dominant and neither won a ring, that's how I view(rank) players, only way to do it really

greatest does not mean the actual best/most dominant on individual level

greatness means rings and cheaters winning while being publicly known cheaters and being praised for it come playoff time by the mass fanatics/sports shows who are either naÔve or ignorant or a tad of both, greatness only equates to that and being 3-5 in those moments is not GOAT, but switch it over to best/most dominant and you have a way way stronger case for Lebron

the best is just that, the most dominant is just that, the player shows it preNBA, the actual best most dominant ones that is, from ncaa to nba regular season or playoffs, you are what you are and it will be showcased because you are what you are

that title belongs to 1 player, WNC (initials)

Hawkeye15
03-27-2018, 05:15 PM
if 1 series is holding him back or from others saying it then I think they(and possibly u) need to take a break and watch something else because there is no way in the world 1 finals blunder is going to hurt one of the most dominant players ever vs comparing him to another of the same ilk

Russell won all the rings and nobody in their right bball mind would ever think he was more dominant on a solo level than Wilt, so if you or others feel like his cyborg abilities are this serious then crown him

its like me holding Jordan first 6 seasons against him as a total, even then to me he was better/dominant player than those 2 who basically won all the 80's rings, plus Jordan team wasn't ready to compete for titles so it would take a while, same as with Bron when they first entered ,usually outside of Kobe a lottery(and top 3 mostly) picked player goes to a bottom feed team

its the reason why I put players like Bron and AI and Wilt on high level, they took bottom feeders and made them legit/relevant, I don't think non bball people realize how hard that is, the ballers respect it to the highest regard

I said Lebron would be one of the probably 10 best ever his rookie year based on how the media ranks, I had him in my circle before he stepped foot in the league, when I saw him in highschool on espn

except his single challenger to the throne (the one who holds it), has zero blemishes. That is why.

If you think his longevity eventually overtakes Jordan, that is cool. But Jordan never failed at the biggest stage, and this coming from someone who has explained at length that LeBron really didn't lose to an underdog but once, Jordan never really played a difficult finals schedule, etc. Hell Jordan even left his team mid prime, but LeBron's total disappearance is just enough when talking about the best to ever play, to knock him down a peg.

to me at least. Jordan, would NEVER pull a no-show in the finals. Never.

valade16
03-27-2018, 05:16 PM
People are saying he's never had a major injury correct? I get it, what he is doing is insane, but let's ease up on the idea that no one has ever done this before.

LeBron James has missed an average of 6 games every season (excluding this one) for the past 14 years.

Karl Malone played in at least 80 games for 17 years (with the lone exception being a lockout shortened season) averaging more MPG than LeBron. He scored 20 PPG in every one of those seasons.

Kareem also played 17 years scoring over 21 PPG in every season while only playing less than 70 games twice (54 in 76 and 62 in 78). He finished 5th in MVP voting in 1986, 17 years after his rookie year.


Yes, what LeBron is doing is amazing, but there have been a relative few who have had this remarkable level of durability and consistency as well.

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2018, 05:26 PM
except his single challenger to the throne (the one who holds it), has zero blemishes. That is why.

If you think his longevity eventually overtakes Jordan, that is cool. But Jordan never failed at the biggest stage, and this coming from someone who has explained at length that LeBron really didn't lose to an underdog but once, Jordan never really played a difficult finals schedule, etc. Hell Jordan even left his team mid prime, but LeBron's total disappearance is just enough when talking about the best to ever play, to knock him down a peg.

to me at least. Jordan, would NEVER pull a no-show in the finals. Never.

you guys keep saying the biggest stage, Jordan did fail to make it to the biggest stage so do you hold that against him? just as Lebron has went to so many finals in a row but only sits at 3-5 but going that many times to the big stage is more impressive, just as Russell who almost doubles Jordan ring total

Jordan didn't make it to the biggest stage first 6 yrs and I think went out first round half the time so did he fall down the line during those times and then elevated himself? Jordan won 6 titles from 1984-91, 1995-98 and in total I think he played around 14-15 seasons, he missed the biggest stage a lot, being 6-0 is cool but I would rather go 10+ times regardless of the outcome, I'd rather be the Buffalo bills and go to 4 straight and lose'em all then to a franchise that has never made the ''biggest stage'', just when I thought getting drafted by a professional team was the biggest stage, you got me right there with the Finals record, and I would still rather be Lebron going for 8 straight trip and 9 in 12yrs than going to 6 in 15 seasons total, and Lebron is still playing so it could be more, especially if he goes to a Texas team or just stay pat where he is

you cant have it both ways, you cant say he never failed on the biggest stage once he got there but not realize he failed horribly prior and still raise him up

thing is with me I always had him highly ranked pre or post rings so the big stage is when they get drafted and make their mark, that's why I say players have to do it for a decade but after 3-5yrs I pretty much know what you are, Lebron has been doing this for 15yrs, he just goes up against more midgets now with the spacing 3pt frenzy, which makes it easier for him as he is showing, a big physical freak with no physical resistance because anything is a replay for a flagrant foul

Shaq is probably like damn, all this bbq chicken and I just was born in the wrong era, same with a lot more others, just look at the overall nba bottom talent, its horrendous

Its like when Brady in football wins the ring they say he moved up but when he loses they say he stays put, like I don't get it, shouldn't he drop off since he loss on the biggest stage? boxing has it pretty much right when it comes to ranking since they drop you or move u up after every loss/win and they recognize that if a boxer is pound for pound the best ever arguably that they are indeed a top 5 boxer ever all time

IKnowHoops
03-27-2018, 06:27 PM
People are saying he's never had a major injury correct? I get it, what he is doing is insane, but let's ease up on the idea that no one has ever done this before.

LeBron James has missed an average of 6 games every season (excluding this one) for the past 14 years.

Karl Malone played in at least 80 games for 17 years (with the lone exception being a lockout shortened season) averaging more MPG than LeBron. He scored 20 PPG in every one of those seasons.

Kareem also played 17 years scoring over 21 PPG in every season while only playing less than 70 games twice (54 in 76 and 62 in 78). He finished 5th in MVP voting in 1986, 17 years after his rookie year.


Yes, what LeBron is doing is amazing, but there have been a relative few who have had this remarkable level of durability and consistency as well.

Difference is Karl Malone was never the best player in the NBA. Kareem is GOAT possibly so makes sense. Both are 1,2 in stats so makes sense.

valade16
03-27-2018, 06:36 PM
Difference is Karl Malone was never the best player in the NBA. Kareem is GOAT possibly so makes sense. Both are 1,2 in stats so makes sense.

But most consider MJ GOAT over Kareem, so most didn't think longevity superseded MJ's career. As do I.

But I also think that MJ leading the league in PPG for 10 full seasons in a row (for him) while making All-Defensive first team in 9 of those years is more impressive than scoring 25 PPG for 14 years or any feat of longevity LeBron has completed thus far.

IKnowHoops
03-27-2018, 06:45 PM
But most consider MJ GOAT over Kareem, so most didn't think longevity superseded MJ's career. As do I.

But I also think that MJ leading the league in PPG for 10 full seasons in a row (for him) while making All-Defensive first team in 9 of those years is more impressive than scoring 25 PPG for 14 years or any feat of longevity LeBron has completed thus far.

Kareem didnít hold down the number 1 spot like Bron. Kareem missed the playoffs in his prime. Bron been #1 for like 12years runnin

valade16
03-27-2018, 06:59 PM
Kareem didnít hold down the number 1 spot like Bron. Kareem missed the playoffs in his prime. Bron been #1 for like 12years runnin

I agree, Kareem wasn't #1 as long as Bron has been, but LeBron became the best player in when? 2008 or 2009? That's roughly 10 years of being the best in the league... Well that's as long as MJ was the best in the league. And keep in mind he retired for a couple years.

JordansBulls
03-27-2018, 08:51 PM
Who on earth could come in and play 40 mpg at age 18, never miss time, play deep into the playoffs forever, and still be dominating 14 seasons later? Seriously, the dude is a cyborg. His 2011 Mavs series is all that holds him back from GOAT. Them's the breaks..

Also being down 3-2 every year of his career in a series when all other top 10 stars have won titles without being down 3-2 in a series. Also you can't lead USA to a bronze medal twice in the Olympics and FIBA.

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2018, 09:09 PM
Jordanís career and team accomplishments are amazing, and his 10 or so scorin* titles are just ****, but what Bron has done and is still doing and is going to do, is more nuts. Glad I was able to witness him and Barry Sanders whole careers.

Not a football fan, but I'm from the Detroit area, and yeah... Barry Sanders was insane. I can't comprehend how amazing that guys was.

As a side note, apparently when somebody asked Sander's father who the best running back of all times was, his father said Jim Brown. The guy interviewing him said: "You're allowed to include Barry." And his father said "Jim Brown."

lol

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2018, 09:11 PM
if 1 series is holding him back or from others saying it then I think they(and possibly u) need to take a break and watch something else because there is no way in the world 1 finals blunder is going to hurt one of the most dominant players ever vs comparing him to another of the same ilk

Russell won all the rings and nobody in their right bball mind would ever think he was more dominant on a solo level than Wilt, so if you or others feel like his cyborg abilities are this serious then crown him

its like me holding Jordan first 6 seasons against him as a total, even then to me he was better/dominant player than those 2 who basically won all the 80's rings, plus Jordan team wasn't ready to compete for titles so it would take a while, same as with Bron when they first entered ,usually outside of Kobe a lottery(and top 3 mostly) picked player goes to a bottom feed team

its the reason why I put players like Bron and AI and Wilt on high level, they took bottom feeders and made them legit/relevant, I don't think non bball people realize how hard that is, the ballers respect it to the highest regard

I said Lebron would be one of the probably 10 best ever his rookie year based on how the media ranks, I had him in my circle before he stepped foot in the league, when I saw him in highschool on espn

I don't think Hawkeye is expressing his own opinion so much as those of the general public. A lot of people point to that series, which they should have, by all rights won. That said... he also won two series he had no business winning (one against the Spurs and one against the Warriors). So he's made up for that.

Jeffy25
03-27-2018, 09:14 PM
I don't think Hawkeye is expressing his own opinion so much as those of the general public. A lot of people point to that series, which they should have, by all rights won. That said... he also won two series he had no business winning (one against the Spurs and one against the Warriors). So he's made up for that.

Has Bron actually been favored to ever win in a Finals series he entered?

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2018, 09:18 PM
People are saying he's never had a major injury correct? I get it, what he is doing is insane, but let's ease up on the idea that no one has ever done this before.

LeBron James has missed an average of 6 games every season (excluding this one) for the past 14 years.

Karl Malone played in at least 80 games for 17 years (with the lone exception being a lockout shortened season) averaging more MPG than LeBron. He scored 20 PPG in every one of those seasons.

Kareem also played 17 years scoring over 21 PPG in every season while only playing less than 70 games twice (54 in 76 and 62 in 78). He finished 5th in MVP voting in 1986, 17 years after his rookie year.


Yes, what LeBron is doing is amazing, but there have been a relative few who have had this remarkable level of durability and consistency as well.

In terms of general longevity, and all-star calibre longeviy, you are correct. However, if we are talking, elite, franchise player longegivty, the only year you could argue LBJ wasn't that was his rookie year.

So 14 years as a franchise player. I mean... 14 years of not 20+ points, but 25+ points. Kareem pulled that off for 9 straight years and 10 years total. Malone did it for 11 straight years and 12 seasons total. LBJ has 25+ ppg for 14 straighy years, and needed fewer minutes per game than either of them to do it.


Don't get me wrong, I got Kareem ranked very high, and Malone as well... but LBJ is certainly in this conversation as puttng together some historically impressive performances with respect to longevity.

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2018, 09:21 PM
Also being down 3-2 every year of his career in a series when all other top 10 stars have won titles without being down 3-2 in a series. Also you can't lead USA to a bronze medal twice in the Olympics and FIBA.

In his defence, he was still college age during the Olympics, and the program was in shambles in terms of organization.

The Olympic commity was frustrated that the 88 team got silver and were essentialy college kids playing aganst grown men, so they let NBA ves play. That bronze medal team was essentially a college team with Wade and LBJ and MElo all at ages where 20 years prior they would have still been in college.

And let's not forget, Duncan was on that team. Duncan doesn't have any gold medals, and nobody holds that against him.

But fair point.

JordansBulls
03-27-2018, 09:38 PM
Has Bron actually been favored to ever win in a Finals series he entered?

2011 (HCA), 2012, 2013 (HCA) for sure with a toss up in 2014 (defending champions against and even older team whose best player was 38)

ewing
03-27-2018, 10:04 PM
Has Bron actually been favored to ever win in a Finals series he entered?

Yes would have been more often if he was Micheal Jordan


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JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2018, 10:04 PM
2011 (HCA), 2012, 2013 (HCA) for sure with a toss up in 2014 (defending champions against and even older team whose best player was 38)

He should have certanly won the Dallas series.

The Spurs series.... they should have lost both and they split them. That's pretty good. And I'm not sure their best player was 38. There is a case for that of course, but it's not so much about who your best player is, but who that player has around him. Leonard was their best player, at least that series (with his defense especially). Parker was the first guy with the ball and leading scorer. Duncan was number two option, but Manu and Leonad got almost as many shots. And they had a lot of great role players. Like Diaw, Splitter, Green, Mills, Beleneli.

On top of that, they were the best coached team in the league both years.


Sure... the heat had Bosh and Wade, but they were starting Mario as well. That dude got abused by Parker. Lewis and Allen were great role players that year, and played well in the finals.


But they had nothing in the middle, and nothing at the point, and those were HUGE holes in that series.


He lost a series he should have won, and won two he should have lost. I'd say that's pretty good. And 7 straight finals? Well... that's historic. 14 straight seasons at 25+? That's historic?

GOAT? Well... that's subjective. But I don't think his finals record should hold him back. He lost a series with a team it was his first year playing for. Nobdy's perfect. Just as MJ. He need four shots at the Pistons before he finally beat them ;-)

FlashBolt
03-27-2018, 10:16 PM
Bosh has only made one all-nba team and it was the 2nd team. I don't know why you guys speak as if he was a dominating player. Wade became injury prone after their second season together. They were talented and good but it wasn't any more help that other stars had.. Look at TD, KD, Rose, Paul Pierce, Granger, CP3, and top teams had back then.

TD had Kawhi, TP, Manu and Pop.
KD had Harden, Russ, Ibaka
Rose had Boozer, Deng, Noah.


These guys had help as well. The difference is and was leBron.

europagnpilgrim
03-27-2018, 11:37 PM
Kareem didnít hold down the number 1 spot like Bron. Kareem missed the playoffs in his prime. Bron been #1 for like 12years runnin

Lebron missed he playoffs in his early strong youth as well, to me the best most dominant players are primed day 1, they murder the league, put it on notice and fear into others

Kareem/Bron/Wilt and some others did that, I consider prime 20 and on also depends on if you come straight out like Bron did but its many others who could have done the same but had to deal with diff. circumstances like Wilt couldn't enter back then so he went and played for Globetrotters and AI could have but he had to spend his senior season in jail

Kareem was prime when he was Alcindor at ucla, true story
Jordan was primed ncaa player of the year and blitzed the league 28ppg rookie year

its really that easy to see, but only if you have actually played the game because if you haven't actually played the game on that level or semi-pro then you will rely on ts% and all those other alphabet gang letters to try and put this player over that player, the game film/roster talent don't lie just as the player who is the best/most dominant don't lie, it just jumps out the screen at you whenever you watch that guy play, just my 3cents on it

its just like qbr now in nfl and war in mlb, its just a bunch of non sense once you put the game film on and break it down or watch the games live

Lebron was one of the best players ever after his rookie year, my 3 cents and point of view, Jordan was one of the best ever dropping 63pts against Celtics and getting swept out of the playoffs early in his career, so what his team wasn't on that level of Bird's but it didn't take away from him being one of the best ever, Bird said he was GOD disguised as Jordan, that automatically puts him in the best/most dominant ever discussion, GOD is the most powerful force of all things seen and unseen right?

they call CP3 the Point-GOD right? well that right there puts him automatically in the top 3-5 PG discussion, some may have CP3 in their top 30 list all time

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 12:21 AM
The Heat vs Spurs Game 6 was on tonight. That's the Ray Allen 3 to force OT. Which Bron hates love to use that game as being saved by that shot by Allen.

And they forget that Bron completely and totally dominated both ends of that game, especially the 4th quarter where he scored 16 against the Spurs total of 20 in that quarter and they were down 10 entering the 4th.

Nobody has the ability to take over a game like Bron does. Jordan didn't do it like this. Jordan had the ability to put a nail in your coffin and could create his own shot athletically at a crazy rate. Bron does it all, in very different ways, in a much greater vertical and team environment....the type where one guy can't really do it all, and he still does.

nastynice
03-28-2018, 12:34 AM
Bosh has only made one all-nba team and it was the 2nd team. I don't know why you guys speak as if he was a dominating player.

This is a great example of why stats and numbers are a horrible barometer. He was a top PF at the time, arguable top 10, easily top 15, player at the time. People don't appreciate what he did in Miami, to change his game that much and still play this completely new role at a very high level. The last two games against Dallas, if they kept feeding bosh they'd very possibly won, I say probably won. The dude was flat out winning his matchups over and over. But LeBron was like, bro stay in your corner, lol

nastynice
03-28-2018, 12:47 AM
Not a football fan, but I'm from the Detroit area, and yeah... Barry Sanders was insane. I can't comprehend how amazing that guys was.

As a side note, apparently when somebody asked Sander's father who the best running back of all times was, his father said Jim Brown. The guy interviewing him said: "You're allowed to include Barry." And his father said "Jim Brown."

lol

The anesthetics of Barry's game are unparalleled. We never seen anything like it, it's like he's got his own category of running style

Heediot
03-28-2018, 06:07 AM
Heat were favored before the series in which Spurs choked. Heat were the odds on betting favorite.

He was favored in the OKC, Dal, SA-1st series, SA 2nd series was close just as close as the first SA series so it's a wash between the two series to me. In retrospect, it feels like the Spurs were favorites for both series because Pops dismantled the heat the 2nd time around.

Heediot
03-28-2018, 06:18 AM
The Heat vs Spurs Game 6 was on tonight. That's the Ray Allen 3 to force OT. Which Bron hates love to use that game as being saved by that shot by Allen.

And they forget that Bron completely and totally dominated both ends of that game, especially the 4th quarter where he scored 16 against the Spurs total of 20 in that quarter and they were down 10 entering the 4th.

Nobody has the ability to take over a game like Bron does. Jordan didn't do it like this. Jordan had the ability to put a nail in your coffin and could create his own shot athletically at a crazy rate. Bron does it all, in very different ways, in a much greater vertical and team environment....the type where one guy can't really do it all, and he still does.

In a less primary ball handling dominated league and a perimeter oriented game. Jordan and stud big guys controlled the game differently, they may not have racked up the same assists as Bron, they could manipulate and control a defense just the same. Both guys are elite defensively when they turn it on. Bron has the edge in rebounding, Jordan could beat you more ways with his scoring and put more fear in to a defense.

Physically Bron may be better, but mentally and killer instinct, I'll take Jordan every single time. Both guys were the most athletic and physically gifted every time they stepped on the court so it's not much separating them there historically. Sometimes mental toughness/focus/killer instinct is the difference in sports. Brady vs. Manning. Baumgarner vs. Kershaw. Historicaly Jordan is one of the most mentallt tough and killer instinct guys in all of sports. Honestly I think Kyrie and Wade have more testicles in stressful situations vs. Lebron just my subjective opinion. Although Bron did develop more as his career progress, so he's at a solid place there now.

tredigs
03-28-2018, 07:12 AM
Westbrook is this close to averaging a triple double again on the season. And nobody cares. Nobody. Not even OKC fans. These random LeBron numbers are also just noise. What IS impressive about him has already been brought up later In this thread.

But for ****s sake with the meaningless counting numbers.

ewing
03-28-2018, 08:30 AM
Westbrook is this close to averaging a triple double again on the season. And nobody cares. Nobody. Not even OKC fans. These random LeBron numbers are also just noise. What IS impressive about him has already been brought up later In this thread.

But for ****s sake with the meaningless counting numbers.

Seems to be a JJH obsession


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ewing
03-28-2018, 08:34 AM
The Heat vs Spurs Game 6 was on tonight. That's the Ray Allen 3 to force OT. Which Bron hates love to use that game as being saved by that shot by Allen.

And they forget that Bron completely and totally dominated both ends of that game, especially the 4th quarter where he scored 16 against the Spurs total of 20 in that quarter and they were down 10 entering the 4th.

Nobody has the ability to take over a game like Bron does. Jordan didn't do it like this. Jordan had the ability to put a nail in your coffin and could create his own shot athletically at a crazy rate. Bron does it all, in very different ways, in a much greater vertical and team environment....the type where one guy can't really do it all, and he still does.

Like it or not that is the one title he backed into. All the breaks went against him when love and Kyrie went down and this series they went for him. He closed the series well but opened it terriblely and benifites big time from TPís hamstring issue in the 2nd half of the series.


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ewing
03-28-2018, 08:37 AM
except his single challenger to the throne (the one who holds it), has zero blemishes. That is why.

If you think his longevity eventually overtakes Jordan, that is cool. But Jordan never failed at the biggest stage, and this coming from someone who has explained at length that LeBron really didn't lose to an underdog but once, Jordan never really played a difficult finals schedule, etc. Hell Jordan even left his team mid prime, but LeBron's total disappearance is just enough when talking about the best to ever play, to knock him down a peg.

to me at least. Jordan, would NEVER pull a no-show in the finals. Never.

Can you explain why LeBron gets credit for playing against stacked teams when he has been on a stacked team himself since the Heat and started the super team trend?


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Hawkeye15
03-28-2018, 09:37 AM
Can you explain why LeBron gets credit for playing against stacked teams when he has been on a stacked team himself since the Heat and started the super team trend?


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because even great teams can run into greater teams. Pretty simple.

Plus, did LeBron play on a super team the year Wade broke down come playoffs, and Bosh was a no show for periods of time, while they put the corpse of Mike Bibby out there for stretches?

I mean names are great and all, but anyone tossing Wade into "super" anything past 2012 is creating a new synonym for reaching. The Cavs team year 1, had Love/Irving gone. What is super about the leftovers?

LeBron has had a favored team for sure in 2011, and 2012. You could probably convince me of another season as well. Outside that, his team was the dog in every finals he was in. It doesn't mean anything but that, his team was expected to lose. LeBron won a series he shouldn't have in 2016, which kinda cancels out 2011. I guess. But this whole argument could be null if he won in 2011 and played well. So it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. To pass Jordan you need near perfection. LeBron has a huge blemish. Next..

IKnowHoops
03-28-2018, 09:52 AM
Not a football fan, but I'm from the Detroit area, and yeah... Barry Sanders was insane. I can't comprehend how amazing that guys was.

As a side note, apparently when somebody asked Sander's father who the best running back of all times was, his father said Jim Brown. The guy interviewing him said: "You're allowed to include Barry." And his father said "Jim Brown."

lol

Barry is one of a kind. When he won the heisman, he barely smiled

IKnowHoops
03-28-2018, 09:54 AM
In terms of general longevity, and all-star calibre longeviy, you are correct. However, if we are talking, elite, franchise player longegivty, the only year you could argue LBJ wasn't that was his rookie year.

So 14 years as a franchise player. I mean... 14 years of not 20+ points, but 25+ points. Kareem pulled that off for 9 straight years and 10 years total. Malone did it for 11 straight years and 12 seasons total. LBJ has 25+ ppg for 14 straighy years, and needed fewer minutes per game than either of them to do it.


Don't get me wrong, I got Kareem ranked very high, and Malone as well... but LBJ is certainly in this conversation as puttng together some historically impressive performances with respect to longevity.

This. He is still one of a kind in what heís doing period

IKnowHoops
03-28-2018, 10:02 AM
In a less primary ball handling dominated league and a perimeter oriented game. Jordan and stud big guys controlled the game differently, they may not have racked up the same assists as Bron, they could manipulate and control a defense just the same. Both guys are elite defensively when they turn it on. Bron has the edge in rebounding, Jordan could beat you more ways with his scoring and put more fear in to a defense.

Physically Bron may be better, but mentally and killer instinct, I'll take Jordan every single time. Both guys were the most athletic and physically gifted every time they stepped on the court so it's not much separating them there historically. Sometimes mental toughness/focus/killer instinct is the difference in sports. Brady vs. Manning. Baumgarner vs. Kershaw. Historicaly Jordan is one of the most mentallt tough and killer instinct guys in all of sports. Honestly I think Kyrie and Wade have more testicles in stressful situations vs. Lebron just my subjective opinion. Although Bron did develop more as his career progress, so he's at a solid place there now.

Kyrie?😂

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 10:16 AM
Can you explain why LeBron gets credit for playing against stacked teams when he has been on a stacked team himself since the Heat and started the super team trend?


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Bron started the super team trend?

Not Garnett, Paul, and Allen?

Or the Lakers multiple times?


And as Hawk said, great teams run into even greater teams.

Heediot
03-28-2018, 10:23 AM
because even great teams can run into greater teams. Pretty simple.

Plus, did LeBron play on a super team the year Wade broke down come playoffs, and Bosh was a no show for periods of time, while they put the corpse of Mike Bibby out there for stretches?

I mean names are great and all, but anyone tossing Wade into "super" anything past 2012 is creating a new synonym for reaching. The Cavs team year 1, had Love/Irving gone. What is super about the leftovers?

LeBron has had a favored team for sure in 2011, and 2012. You could probably convince me of another season as well. Outside that, his team was the dog in every finals he was in. It doesn't mean anything but that, his team was expected to lose. LeBron won a series he shouldn't have in 2016, which kinda cancels out 2011. I guess. But this whole argument could be null if he won in 2011 and played well. So it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. To pass Jordan you need near perfection. LeBron has a huge blemish. Next..

Heat were favored over spurs in the first finals. We just assume they weren't favorites because Pops took them apart in the 2nd finals. In Mia he was favored more then not (3/4 finals). Heat were slight favorites in the first series and slight dogs in the 2nd vs. SA. Yeah the Spurs choked the first and then wiped them out the 2nd time around, so in retrospect we assume the Spurs were favorites both times around when it's not actually true.

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 10:26 AM
In a less primary ball handling dominated league and a perimeter oriented game. Jordan and stud big guys controlled the game differently, they may not have racked up the same assists as Bron, they could manipulate and control a defense just the same. Both guys are elite defensively when they turn it on. Bron has the edge in rebounding, Jordan could beat you more ways with his scoring and put more fear in to a defense.

Physically Bron may be better, but mentally and killer instinct, I'll take Jordan every single time. Both guys were the most athletic and physically gifted every time they stepped on the court so it's not much separating them there historically. Sometimes mental toughness/focus/killer instinct is the difference in sports. Brady vs. Manning. Baumgarner vs. Kershaw. Historicaly Jordan is one of the most mentallt tough and killer instinct guys in all of sports. Honestly I think Kyrie and Wade have more testicles in stressful situations vs. Lebron just my subjective opinion. Although Bron did develop more as his career progress, so he's at a solid place there now.

I get all of that, completely.

I just think sometimes it's revisionist history with Jordan fans/Bron haters. People tend to romanticize the times Jordan came through in the clutch, and forget the times he didn't. And the opposite for Bron. Forgetting when he comes through, and remembering when he choked.

Fact is, statistically, both are about equal in terms of putting games away, tying them up, etc in late game situations in both the regular season and the playoffs. Though, Jordan did it more with his own scoring, and Bron has a ton more late game assists (facilitating). But that's more to do with their differences in archetypes.


Jordan could take that 18 foot, running away, double teamed game winner and actually hit it 50% of the time.
Kobe did that same play all the time, and would hit it 25% of the time.
Bron can physically do that, but he knows he only hits it 25% of the time (and prefers to drive and create contact), or he also passes to the open guy on the court and that guy hits it 50% of the time.

He is picked on for missing it 75% of the time, like Kobe is. And he is picked on whenever he passes out and makes the right Magic style basketball play, and that guy misses it. Or if he makes it, then Bron doesn't have killer instinct. When that's the play you'd want your guy to make.


I know I tend to hate on Kobe, but I can't tell you how many times I've watched Kobe take one of the ugliest, contested shots for a game winner/tie, etc when he has an open Jeremy Lin or Derek Fisher for 3. Kobe thought it was his job to take and create that shot. And he was glorified for the times he did complete it. But that's crazy because of how massively inefficient he was at it. All that anyone ever remembers are the makes. They forget how many of those he missed. And everyone is so impressed because he just created it out of nothing when he did (I have to admit, he could create a shot with the best of them and didn't need any room).

Jordan did all of that, but he still made those shots at a high rate. Bron doesn't really bother with those shots. He either attacks the basket with his sheer size and force, or passes out to the open man.

Maybe it's not killer instinct, but the results are there.

The two times he was 'saved' in the Finals (the Allen 3 and the Kyrie 3) are considered by Bron haters as his team mates saving him.

But people forget that Bron basically single handedly put his teams in those positions that a shot like that could even happen with insane 4th quarters leading up to those events (that block on Duncan in that Game 6 was as huge as his 3 with 30 seconds left. And Jordan himself was bailed out by guys like Kerr (though not pushing a game 7).

I just think revisionist historians show up too often when it comes to the Jordan/Bron debate. We've never seen anyone like either player, and the eras are so different.

ewing
03-28-2018, 10:36 AM
Bron started the super team trend?

Not Garnett, Paul, and Allen?

Or the Lakers multiple times?


And as Hawk said, great teams run into even greater teams.

Yes. KD doesn't go to GS if Bron hadn't already broken the seal. He is the OP (orginal *****)

ewing
03-28-2018, 10:37 AM
because even great teams can run into greater teams. Pretty simple.

Plus, did LeBron play on a super team the year Wade broke down come playoffs, and Bosh was a no show for periods of time, while they put the corpse of Mike Bibby out there for stretches?

I mean names are great and all, but anyone tossing Wade into "super" anything past 2012 is creating a new synonym for reaching. The Cavs team year 1, had Love/Irving gone. What is super about the leftovers?

LeBron has had a favored team for sure in 2011, and 2012. You could probably convince me of another season as well. Outside that, his team was the dog in every finals he was in. It doesn't mean anything but that, his team was expected to lose. LeBron won a series he shouldn't have in 2016, which kinda cancels out 2011. I guess. But this whole argument could be null if he won in 2011 and played well. So it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. To pass Jordan you need near perfection. LeBron has a huge blemish. Next..


Poor LeBron. Never any help!

Heediot
03-28-2018, 10:37 AM
I get all of that, completely.

I just think sometimes it's revisionist history with Jordan fans/Bron haters. People tend to romanticize the times Jordan came through in the clutch, and forget the times he didn't. And the opposite for Bron. Forgetting when he comes through, and remembering when he choked.

Fact is, statistically, both are about equal in terms of putting games away, tying them up, etc in late game situations in both the regular season and the playoffs. Though, Jordan did it more with his own scoring, and Bron has a ton more late game assists (facilitating). But that's more to do with their differences in archetypes.


Jordan could take that 18 foot, running away, double teamed game winner and actually hit it 50% of the time.
Kobe did that same play all the time, and would hit it 25% of the time.
Bron can physically do that, but he knows he only hits it 25% of the time (and prefers to drive and create contact), or he also passes to the open guy on the court and that guy hits it 50% of the time.

He is picked on for missing it 75% of the time, like Kobe is. And he is picked on whenever he passes out and makes the right Magic style basketball play, and that guy misses it. Or if he makes it, then Bron doesn't have killer instinct. When that's the play you'd want your guy to make.


I know I tend to hate on Kobe, but I can't tell you how many times I've watched Kobe take one of the ugliest, contested shots for a game winner/tie, etc when he has an open Jeremy Lin or Derek Fisher for 3. Kobe thought it was his job to take and create that shot. And he was glorified for the times he did complete it. But that's crazy because of how massively inefficient he was at it. All that anyone ever remembers are the makes. They forget how many of those he missed. And everyone is so impressed because he just created it out of nothing when he did (I have to admit, he could create a shot with the best of them and didn't need any room).

Jordan did all of that, but he still made those shots at a high rate. Bron doesn't really bother with those shots. He either attacks the basket with his sheer size and force, or passes out to the open man.

Maybe it's not killer instinct, but the results are there.

The two times he was 'saved' in the Finals (the Allen 3 and the Kyrie 3) are considered by Bron haters as his team mates saving him.

But people forget that Bron basically single handedly put his teams in those positions that a shot like that could even happen with insane 4th quarters leading up to those events (that block on Duncan in that Game 6 was as huge as his 3 with 30 seconds left. And Jordan himself was bailed out by guys like Kerr (though not pushing a game 7).

I just think revisionist historians show up too often when it comes to the Jordan/Bron debate. We've never seen anyone like either player, and the eras are so different.

I think Jordan is a willing passer in the clutch and dying moments too. Unlike Kobe who'll you'll know will take the shot 95 percent of the time. MJ will probably take the shot 3/4 of the time.

The thing about LeBron is his iso game is average, which is a reason why he'll pass it more often then not in the clutch. Late in the game 1 on 1 plays are a big factor, as good and efficient as he is IMO that's not his strong suit. He likes to suck in the defense for a kick out, but teams will clog the paint more in the clutch. Hell pops used a strategy of forcing Bron to beat him from the mid-range and beyond the 2nd finals around, and it worked to the Spurs favor.

Jordan did have some bad moments, no doubt about it. The one thing you can count on Jordan and Brady is they will never check out. Brady is a guy who could've been blown out a few times in the SB (Seattle and Atlanta), but the instead of fizzling he embraces the stress/challenge.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2018, 10:41 AM
I think Jordan is a willing passer in the clutch and dying moments too. Unlike Kobe who'll you'll know will take the shot 95 percent of the time. MJ will probably take the shot 3/4 of the time.

The thing about LeBron is his iso game is average, which is a reason why he'll pass it more often then not in the clutch. Late in the game 1 on 1 plays are a big factor, as good and efficient as he is IMO that's not his strong suit. He likes to suck in the defense for a kick out, but teams will clog the paint more in the clutch. Hell pops used a strategy of forcing Bron to beat him from the mid-range and beyond the 2nd finals around, and it worked to the Spurs favor.

Jordan did have some bad moments, no doubt about it. The one thing you can count on Jordan and Brady is they will never check out. Brady is a guy who could've been blown out a few times in the SB (Seattle and Atlanta), but the instead of fizzling he embraces the stress/challenge.

I am replying to the quote earlier you made about Lebron having physical edge,Physical in size as lbs/height but pound for pound strength is Jordan, who was super wiry strong upon entering the league(go youtube the dunk where he shattered the glass with a one hand patented kiss the rim style dunk when he was rail thin), then after he bulked up 2nd three peat I think one time he posted up Shaq and Shaq said he was the strongest player in the league, he may not have meant it literally but he was relating to how ox strong Jordan was as a 'guard'

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2018, 10:45 AM
The anesthetics of Barry's game are unparalleled. We never seen anything like it, it's like he's got his own category of running style

Barry/Vick was the Iverson of the NFL

Iverson was the Barry/Vick of the NBA

Nothing more nor less, I am glad you posted your quote so I could piggyback off of it, and the quote you are replying to as well

Jim Brown is one of the best ever, easily in my circle of 20-25 most dominant, same with Barry

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 10:47 AM
Westbrook is this close to averaging a triple double again on the season. And nobody cares. Nobody. Not even OKC fans. These random LeBron numbers are also just noise. What IS impressive about him has already been brought up later In this thread.

But for ****s sake with the meaningless counting numbers.

Have you ever looked up the uncontested rebounding numbers around the league?

Nobody cares about Westbrook's triple double numbers because his team is literally trying to pad his rebounding numbers.

https://ru-clip.com/video/HYKolm75h8Y/how-russell-westbrook-racks-up-10-rebounds-per-game.html

Everybody knows it's ********.

Plus he doesn't bother on defense and they 'have to shoot' every time he passes to them, meanwhile, he also gets 5 turnovers per game. He does nothing off-ball, etc.

Westbrook is about padding the stats, and it's empty. Bron is putting up the numbers by taking over games. Bron has bad 'stat games' whenever the game is out of reach. Westbrook has bad 'stat games' whenever they play good teams.

Westbrook's best games this year are against teams like Dallas, Phoenix, and Sacramento.

Most of Bron's best games are close finishes against good teams (though, some bad teams are in there too).

When the margin of victory is less than 15 points, Bron is putting up 29.5 PPG/9.5 APG/9.2 RPG vs 22.8/8.2/7.7 when it's greater than 15
When the margin of victory is less than 15 points, Westbrook is putting up 25.7/10.0/9.9 vs 24.4/10.6/9.4 when it's greater than 15.

Bron doesn't bother when the game is out of reach, Westbrook plays the same. Stacking his stats.


But mainly, it's all the uncontested rebounds. His team mates literally clear out so he can grab it, and box everyone else out on the court.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2018, 10:50 AM
Have you ever looked up the uncontested rebounding numbers around the league?

Nobody cares about Westbrook's triple double numbers because his team is literally trying to pad his rebounding numbers.

https://ru-clip.com/video/HYKolm75h8Y/how-russell-westbrook-racks-up-10-rebounds-per-game.html

Everybody knows it's ********.

Plus he doesn't bother on defense and they 'have to shoot' every time he passes to them, meanwhile, he also gets 5 turnovers per game. He does nothing off-ball, etc.

Westbrook is about padding the stats, and it's empty. Bron is putting up the numbers by taking over games. Bron has bad 'stat games' whenever the game is out of reach. Westbrook has bad 'stat games' whenever they play good teams.

Westbrook's best games this year are against teams like Dallas, Phoenix, and Sacramento.

Most of Bron's best games are close finishes against good teams (though, some bad teams are in there too).

When the margin of victory is less than 15 points, Bron is putting up 29.5 PPG/9.5 APG/9.2 RPG vs 22.8/8.2/7.7 when it's greater than 15
When the margin of victory is less than 15 points, Westbrook is putting up 25.7/10.0/9.9 vs 24.4/10.6/9.4 when it's greater than 15.

Bron doesn't bother when the game is out of reach, Westbrook plays the same. Stacking his stats.


But mainly, it's all the uncontested rebounds. His team mates literally clear out so he can grab it, and box everyone else out on the court.

Lebron has cared more about stats than before Russell entered the league, are you fooling yourself?

you don't remember that classic t-shirt Bron wore after putting up those insane numbers against Orlando before being sent home by Dwight?


the t-shirt read: Check/Look at my stats, or something like that

dude loves stat padding 5x more than Westbrook, and had a what 5-6yr starting gap in the nba doing it, just because Lebron doesn't have the robust numbers of triple doubles he still had games where he was 1 assist or rebound away from triple doubles, he is avg 7 and 7 in assists and rebounds for his career for a reason

you notice how others around him who grabbed more rebounds without him drop off while his remains the same or spikes? well that is stat padding

if Lebron played with Rodman he would eat into to his rebounds, and probably catch a elbow from Rodman in the process and called out for stat padding

Westbrook has a 2 year title, Lebron has a 15 title, he was 1a to Westbrook these past 2yrs chasing triple dubs

Heediot
03-28-2018, 10:51 AM
I am replying to the quote earlier you made about Lebron having physical edge,Physical in size as lbs/height but pound for pound strength is Jordan, who was super wiry strong upon entering the league(go youtube the dunk where he shattered the glass with a one hand patented kiss the rim style dunk when he was rail thin), then after he bulked up 2nd three peat I think one time he posted up Shaq and Shaq said he was the strongest player in the league, he may not have meant it literally but he was relating to how ox strong Jordan was as a 'guard'

I feel you. Pound for Pound, Jordan and Rodman are strong as ****. Jordan has Bron beat in agility, first step, hang time, and better form on his jumper (this last one is subjective). Bron has more size, length, measured power (not pound for pound), speed (which is debatable). Both have crazy verticals.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2018, 10:52 AM
I feel you. Pound for Pound, Jordan and Rodman are strong as ****. Jordan has Bron beat in agility, first step, hang time, and better form on his jumper (this last one is subjective). Bron has more size, length, measured power (not pound for pound), speed (which is debatable). Both have crazy verticals.

nuff said, respect

Leftcoast_yg
03-28-2018, 01:21 PM
except his single challenger to the throne (the one who holds it), has zero blemishes. That is why.

If you think his longevity eventually overtakes Jordan, that is cool. But Jordan never failed at the biggest stage, and this coming from someone who has explained at length that LeBron really didn't lose to an underdog but once, Jordan never really played a difficult finals schedule, etc. Hell Jordan even left his team mid prime, but LeBron's total disappearance is just enough when talking about the best to ever play, to knock him down a peg.

to me at least. Jordan, would NEVER pull a no-show in the finals. Never.

Lebron will go down as the greatest player to ever play during the regular season but not playoffs or finals. Jordan will be better than Lebron solely on his playoff stats. Hell kobe has better stats than Bron in the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2018, 01:30 PM
Poor LeBron. Never any help!

when did I ever say that haha? Anyone who wins a title has great help.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2018, 01:33 PM
Lebron will go down as the greatest player to ever play during the regular season but not playoffs or finals. Jordan will be better than Lebron solely on his playoff stats. Hell kobe has better stats than Bron in the playoffs.

LeBron's playoff numbers take a dump on Kobe's actually. In fact, the only comparable to LeBron, is Michael Jordan.

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 05:26 PM
Lebron will go down as the greatest player to ever play during the regular season but not playoffs or finals. Jordan will be better than Lebron solely on his playoff stats. Hell kobe has better stats than Bron in the playoffs.

Until you look at Bron's playoff stats........and realize he is already number one in a huge number of categories of counting categories and way up there in rate stats.

And Kobe absolutely does not have better playoff stats

Bron playoffs
28.4 PPG (5th), 8.9 RPG (79th), 6.9 APG (21st), 1.8 SPG (21st), 1.0 BPG (107th)
27.9 PER (3rd), .574 TS% (42nd), 45.8 WS (1st), .241 WS/48 (3rd)

Kobe playoffs
25.6 PPG (11th), 5.1 RPG (outside the top 250), 4.7 APG (76th), 1.4 SPG (63rd), 0.7 BPG (187th)
22.4 PER (23rd), .541 TS% (139th), 28.3 WS (8th), .157 WS/48 (49th)

He's literally behind Bron in each category. Where does Kobe have better playoff stats? Or are you referring to only rings? Because Kobe played with one of the greatest centers ever for 3 rings in a row as a pup, and wasn't even a starter in the first year. I guess that means Robert Horry has better playoff stats than Kobe.


The only issue Bron has with Jordan is that Jordan did it at better and more efficient rate than Bron in the playoffs. But Bron has already passed him in longevity, and you can't be GOAT if you ain't on the court. Which Bron is piling that up now.

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 05:42 PM
Lebron has cared more about stats than before Russell entered the league, are you fooling yourself?

you don't remember that classic t-shirt Bron wore after putting up those insane numbers against Orlando before being sent home by Dwight?


the t-shirt read: Check/Look at my stats, or something like that

dude loves stat padding 5x more than Westbrook, and had a what 5-6yr starting gap in the nba doing it, just because Lebron doesn't have the robust numbers of triple doubles he still had games where he was 1 assist or rebound away from triple doubles, he is avg 7 and 7 in assists and rebounds for his career for a reason

you notice how others around him who grabbed more rebounds without him drop off while his remains the same or spikes? well that is stat padding

if Lebron played with Rodman he would eat into to his rebounds, and probably catch a elbow from Rodman in the process and called out for stat padding

Westbrook has a 2 year title, Lebron has a 15 title, he was 1a to Westbrook these past 2yrs chasing triple dubs

Whose rebounds are dropping?

Kevin Love got 13.4 rebounds per 36 minutes in Minnesota at 29.8%. In 4 years in Cleveland it's at 11.5 at 28.2%.

That's the kind of thing that is to be expected when playing next to another guy that can rebound. Wilt and Kareem both got less boards when they went to LA as well. It's not a surprise that top rebounders will lose a few boards per night because they play next to someone else that can also rebound.

What you don't have is a whole team flopping and moving out of the way so one player can pile up their stats. That doesn't happen around Bron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj6fJq1tHGE

He runs away from defending his guy, and then his team mates get out of the way so he can get the easy board.

Bron doesn't do that.

L8kers4life
03-28-2018, 06:07 PM
Until you look at Bron's playoff stats........and realize he is already number one in a huge number of categories of counting categories and way up there in rate stats.

And Kobe absolutely does not have better playoff stats

Bron playoffs
28.4 PPG (5th), 8.9 RPG (79th), 6.9 APG (21st), 1.8 SPG (21st), 1.0 BPG (107th)
27.9 PER (3rd), .574 TS% (42nd), 45.8 WS (1st), .241 WS/48 (3rd)

Kobe playoffs
25.6 PPG (11th), 5.1 RPG (outside the top 250), 4.7 APG (76th), 1.4 SPG (63rd), 0.7 BPG (187th)
22.4 PER (23rd), .541 TS% (139th), 28.3 WS (8th), .157 WS/48 (49th)

He's literally behind Bron in each category. Where does Kobe have better playoff stats? Or are you referring to only rings? Because Kobe played with one of the greatest centers ever for 3 rings in a row as a pup, and wasn't even a starter in the first year. I guess that means Robert Horry has better playoff stats than Kobe.


The only issue Bron has with Jordan is that Jordan did it at better and more efficient rate than Bron in the playoffs. But Bron has already passed him in longevity, and you can't be GOAT if you ain't on the court. Which Bron is piling that up now.


People should really stop comparing Lebron and Kobe at all, Kobe is not in LeBrons class when it comes to all time greats (LeBron is in the 1st tier, Kobe 2nd or 3rd tier) . I think when it's all said and done LeBron will be the goat based on career dominance with Longevity. Jordan retiring twice and finishing his career in Washington really won't look favorable in the argument, if LeBron even wins 1 more ring and plays 5 more years. For now Jordan reigns supreme.

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2018, 06:50 PM
Whose rebounds are dropping?

Kevin Love got 13.4 rebounds per 36 minutes in Minnesota at 29.8%. In 4 years in Cleveland it's at 11.5 at 28.2%.

That's the kind of thing that is to be expected when playing next to another guy that can rebound. Wilt and Kareem both got less boards when they went to LA as well. It's not a surprise that top rebounders will lose a few boards per night because they play next to someone else that can also rebound.

What you don't have is a whole team flopping and moving out of the way so one player can pile up their stats. That doesn't happen around Bron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj6fJq1tHGE

He runs away from defending his guy, and then his team mates get out of the way so he can get the easy board.

Bron doesn't do that.


Just off looking at Love's pure rebounding numbers, as in pure minutes played per game not per 36 minutes because a nba game is 48mpg, nice try though

prior to Love going to Cleveland he was getting more rebounds per game, same with Bosh, but Lebron stay the same or go up, just as his assists numbers this year are career year since he doesn't have his AI(Irving) to take a couple of those per game assists away

it wouldn't have been expected if Love and Bosh could do what they do on the block with their prior teams but they have to camp outside and shoot 3's like they are Dirk and R Allen, I recall Love or Bosh taking a 3 here and there but when they teamed up with Lebron its all you basically thought of those guys, outside of maybe throwing the ball to Love in the 1st qtr down low a couple times he went from bruiser on the block to nothing but a corner 3pt spot up shooter who gets a few boards here and there when he is banging down low

if you cant see that a 14-15rpg game type player drops all the way to under 10 and a high I think of 11pg with Cavs then I don't know what to tell you

its the same with points but I would expect that playing with Bron/Irving but not the rebound numbers that bad, but I realize he is playing out of position to appease Bron ego trip

Wilt also had double knee surgery and still put up 18rpg, had he went through no surgeries I am pretty sure he could have maintained 20rpg until he retired as he put up 18rpg his final season

but can we all be clear that Wilt/Kareem stayed on the block regardless of the other surrounding talent, Bron only wanted both Bosh/Love for spacing, only thing that keeps them from blowing up is the winning/going to Finals, other than that I know those guys are super frustrated

Love went from a capable 25ppg and 15rpg guy to to a 17 and 10 guy with Bron, any other era those are just serviceable number, now its sure fire lock all star

Bron has done whatever you are saying, plus more like hunting out assists, low key dissing mates but in the same breath after every postgame sware he is all about making plays for his mates and being there, then he was about to give Irving the keys but waited until he got actually traded to make the statement instead of giving the 'kid' the keys after he smacked Curry in the face with the biggest shot in Cavs history only to be upstaged by somehow the biggest block in Cavs history, give me the shot all day every day

if Lebron leaves again at least he can say I gave the keys to whoever they draft with that Nets pick, Bron is the man

europagnpilgrim
03-28-2018, 06:57 PM
People should really stop comparing Lebron and Kobe at all, Kobe is not in LeBrons class when it comes to all time greats (LeBron is in the 1st tier, Kobe 2nd or 3rd tier) . I think when it's all said and done LeBron will be the goat based on career dominance with Longevity. Jordan retiring twice and finishing his career in Washington really won't look favorable in the argument, if LeBron even wins 1 more ring and plays 5 more years. For now Jordan reigns supreme.

for all you experts out here throwing tier around like its the holy grail tell me how many slots are in a tier? reason I ask because being in a top 10 best/most dominant list is 1st tier

like I don't agree when someone says Jordan is 1st tier and then throw everybody else under, that is so far from the truth its almost a travesty, Jordan is not on no 1st tier alone, Shaq/Bron/Wilt/Alcindor/Oscar/AI and others say hello and thanks but no thanks

my circle of most dominant/best are all 1st tier, true story

IKnowHoops
03-28-2018, 09:37 PM
I think Jordan is a willing passer in the clutch and dying moments too. Unlike Kobe who'll you'll know will take the shot 95 percent of the time. MJ will probably take the shot 3/4 of the time.

The thing about LeBron is his iso game is average, which is a reason why he'll pass it more often then not in the clutch. Late in the game 1 on 1 plays are a big factor, as good and efficient as he is IMO that's not his strong suit. He likes to suck in the defense for a kick out, but teams will clog the paint more in the clutch. Hell pops used a strategy of forcing Bron to beat him from the mid-range and beyond the 2nd finals around, and it worked to the Spurs favor.

Jordan did have some bad moments, no doubt about it. The one thing you can count on Jordan and Brady is they will never check out. Brady is a guy who could've been blown out a few times in the SB (Seattle and Atlanta), but the instead of fizzling he embraces the stress/challenge.

Your on crack if you think Brons iso game is average...actually, youíve just been fired from this topic.

IKnowHoops
03-28-2018, 09:39 PM
Barry/Vick was the Iverson of the NFL

Iverson was the Barry/Vick of the NBA

Nothing more nor less, I am glad you posted your quote so I could piggyback off of it, and the quote you are replying to as well

Jim Brown is one of the best ever, easily in my circle of 20-25 most dominant, same with Barry

Problem is, Vick ainít Barry. Neither is IVO. Ur off

JasonJohnHorn
03-28-2018, 09:45 PM
I get all of that, completely.

I just think sometimes it's revisionist history with Jordan fans/Bron haters. People tend to romanticize the times Jordan came through in the clutch, and forget the times he didn't. And the opposite for Bron. Forgetting when he comes through, and remembering when he choked.

I respect Jordan. I'm an old school Bad Boys 1.0 fan, so I hate him, but I respect him and believe he is every bit as impressive as LBJ.

But I gotta say... you have a great point here, and I'd like to add this:

If Jordan lost to the Pistons three years ina row in THIS NBA, in THIS media climate, people would have been calling him a loser. They would have said he didn't have what it takes.

And even at the time people were asking if he was all flash.


Back them, teams had players locked in for a long time after drafting them. Jordan couldnt have left. But if he were in the same position as KD, he would have fawking booked it for a contender.

FlashBolt
03-28-2018, 10:35 PM
It's social media, man. It helps and doesn't help in many cases. LeBron has been screwed by social media but he's also benefitted more from it. Yes, there will always be haters/nuthuggers but let's be honest here, LeBron has more fans than haters (from actual ball fans not just blind haters). In terms of legacy, man, watch this play here:


https://youtu.be/quWopHSODf8?t=293

4:50 of the video

He's doing a 360 backboard layup from ten feet while a defender was in front of him. He's 260 lbs, 6'8 in his 15th season. I'm sorry but on a pure basketball talent, LeBron is perhaps the GOAT or right up there with any other player. But his career will never, IMO, amount to Jordan. The story behind Jordan and the marketing involved is the greatest sports achievement.

JasonJohnHorn
03-28-2018, 10:40 PM
Heat were favored over spurs in the first finals. We just assume they weren't favorites because Pops took them apart in the 2nd finals. In Mia he was favored more then not (3/4 finals). Heat were slight favorites in the first series and slight dogs in the 2nd vs. SA. Yeah the Spurs choked the first and then wiped them out the 2nd time around, so in retrospect we assume the Spurs were favorites both times around when it's not actually true.

I mean... who decides the favorites? Most people I knew were split on that series.


People look back now and say "LBJ, Wade, Bosh", but they had Mario Chalmbers getting torn apart by Tony Parker, and there were no C's cover Tim Duncan. They had Haslem and Bosh starting at C.

Those were two key match ups that a LOT of people thought the Spurs would abuse to know end.

nastynice
03-28-2018, 10:58 PM
for all you experts out here throwing tier around like its the holy grail tell me how many slots are in a tier? reason I ask because being in a top 10 best/most dominant list is 1st tier


Iím a tier guy myself. And I agree, Kobe tier 2, lebron tier 1. Iíd say each tier has an unlimited number of slots, players get added over time

Jordan is tier 1, but he has this added layer in his legacy which is why so many people call him goat, and that was complete and absolute domination for 6 straight full seasons, each ending with a fmvp. It was his league, completely his league. With lebron itís also his league, but its also been the spurs, the warriors, etc. With Jordan it was just diff.

Heediot
03-28-2018, 10:59 PM
I mean... who decides the favorites? Most people I knew were split on that series.


People look back now and say "LBJ, Wade, Bosh", but they had Mario Chalmbers getting torn apart by Tony Parker, and there were no C's cover Tim Duncan. They had Haslem and Bosh starting at C.

Those were two key match ups that a LOT of people thought the Spurs would abuse to know end.

the betting lines.

Some links I just found.
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/6/6/4400960/2013-nba-finals-odds-heat-spurs

Heat are a solid 2 to 1 favorite before the series.

http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-finals-betting-odds-2014-heat-spurs-battle-second-straight-year-1592894

Spurs are a tiny favorite favorite in the rematch. at -135 that's like a 1 or 2 point spread in a nba game.

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 11:06 PM
Just off looking at Love's pure rebounding numbers, as in pure minutes played per game not per 36 minutes because a nba game is 48mpg, nice try though


Well of course I used a rate stat. If he played more minutes, he'd get more rebounds per game. Your argument was that guys rebounds drop. You obviously have to use a rate stat.


The rest of your response is basically the same nonsense, consistently inaccurate or hyperbole.

Also worth pointing out, Love and Bosh both played further from the rim offensively with Bron, reducing their O boards. And points are obviously going to go down, they go from being the only scorer on their teams, to playing next to an elite scorer. Pippen and Kukoc also scored more when Jordan wasn't on the floor.

You have to compare numbers by 36 to before and after to even attempt to see impact. These guys started playing less minutes per game, especially in 4th quarters because there were a lot more blow outs. Love played an average of 2 less minutes every night next to Bron compared to prior. Bosh 3 less. You can't take raw numbers, and ignore that they played less. And then blame Bron for them having less total numbers. Of course they did. They would have to do a lot more to make up for the loss of minutes.

Heediot
03-28-2018, 11:06 PM
Your on crack if you think Brons iso game is average...actually, youíve just been fired from this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aIGJV0NXLQ

Look at James. He's not a crafty player. He can take care of the ball in terms of ball handling, but breaking down a guy off the dribble isn't his forte. His first step is mediocre so he has to move back well beyond the defender and try to go at him with a full head of steam. I'm not saying some of what he does isn't effective, but without someone giving him a screen or 2, breaking down a defender face up isn't his trade just my take.

The guy is a killer off the pick and roll, and if he can a head of steam to the hole with a screen, it's almost un-guardable. He's more of a north and south guy IMO. The three point shot that he added to his arsenal, just makes stopping the north and south game a bit more difficult. He's a drive and kick guy, that's his bread and butter.

Jeffy25
03-28-2018, 11:14 PM
Iím a tier guy myself. And I agree, Kobe tier 2, lebron tier 1. Iíd say each tier has an unlimited number of slots, players get added over time

Jordan is tier 1, but he has this added layer in his legacy which is why so many people call him goat, and that was complete and absolute domination for 6 straight full seasons, each ending with a fmvp. It was his league, completely his league. With lebron itís also his league, but its also been the spurs, the warriors, etc. With Jordan it was just diff.

eh, 6 out of 8 ;)

nastynice
03-28-2018, 11:56 PM
eh, 6 out of 8 ;)

I mean for him personally playing full seasons, it was 6.

ewing
03-29-2018, 12:25 AM
The biggest criticism of Mike is once he took a break from being the greatest


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
03-29-2018, 07:18 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aIGJV0NXLQ

Look at James. He's not a crafty player. He can take care of the ball in terms of ball handling, but breaking down a guy off the dribble isn't his forte. His first step is mediocre so he has to move back well beyond the defender and try to go at him with a full head of steam. I'm not saying some of what he does isn't effective, but without someone giving him a screen or 2, breaking down a defender face up isn't his trade just my take.

The guy is a killer off the pick and roll, and if he can a head of steam to the hole with a screen, it's almost un-guardable. He's more of a north and south guy IMO. The three point shot that he added to his arsenal, just makes stopping the north and south game a bit more difficult. He's a drive and kick guy, that's his bread and butter.

This is an unfair evaluation of LeBron. The guy is 6'8, 260 lbs. You can't possibly expect a player his size to have the dribbling or craftiness that a smaller player or guard would have. He's just bigger than MJ, period. MJ doesn't have the dribbling or craftiness as Kyrie. Does that make him better than MJ or LeBron? No, it just means certain players have certain go-to moves. LeBron's ISO is not average. He's actually ranked #2 in ISO scoring (though not as many PPP). In other years, he's ranked top five. LeBron passes because it's the right play. He's made some questionable passes in the clutch before but 9/10, it's the right pass to the right player for an open shot. I'm not sure why NBA fans think, "Shoot the shot" is the best option all the time. LeBron plays smart basketball. I don't care how great MJ is. I am not giving the ball to him if I need a three if Reggie Miller or Ray Allen is at the three point line. I don't care, sorry. Plus, why is sucking the defense in but his teammates not making the shot looked at as a negative for a player? That's a tremendous ability. Teams don't pack the paint unless you can get to it willingly. If LeBron's teammates (2014) can't make the shot, there isn't any other strategy out there. No one wins in the NBA playing a 1v5. If you're simply referring to the clutch in that series, there were no clutch moments to be had. Spurs just put on an amazing shooting clinic vs the Heat. Take a look at the series again. Scoring the ball wasn't as huge of a problem as defense was. Spurs shot 53% from the field and 47% from three. You're likely not going to beat a team shooting that well regardless if you're playing your A game or not. If you're referring to the 2013 series, you do have a point but like you said, it's more difficult for a player to get to the basket because teams pack the paint in the clutch. Jordan never had to deal with that zone defense at his peak. You beat your defender and you're headed straight to the basket with less coverage in the paint.

I'm also having difficulty understanding your ISO argument. You claim his ISO is average but also say that the Spurs pack the paint. They are PACKING the paint for a reason. If LeBron can draw the opposing team's defenders to him, it no longer is an ISO play. Outside of Kawhi, I don't think there is anyone in the league who can prevent LeBron from scoring on them in ISO efficiently. And this is why I said you do have a point with the 2013 series. They did force LeBron to play ISO but it was through their interior defense that forced LeBron to play more ISO. When LeBron made the pass, his teammates were forced to make the plays and by that point, Spurs had already gotten what they wanted. IMO, the issue is Miami just didn't have another dominant playmaker. Wade at that time was already falling apart as an elite player and it was simply: Force Miami to make their other players create plays.

And comparing Brady to LeBron is silly. Brady has won Superbowls off defense and a coach who has been able to make plays with players across the roster. It's not even the same sport so as to compare their solo career is impossible. Also, implying LeBron "checked out" is saying he quit. I'm not sure where that comes from but the guy has been in the NBA for 15 seasons. It wouldn't be that difficult to look at most athletes careers and nitpick a few games where they may have "quit" on their team.

The better argument is this: LeBron's shot is simply way too inconsistent at times and his FT shooting is just poor. He has games where he'll miss a few FT's in the first quarter and you just know it will be a bad FT shooting night for him and then games where he'll make all his FT's. So rather than let the opponent bait LeBron into shooting the ball, he forces the defense to make a mistake and find the open man to pass it to. If it is an ISO play and he misses, so be it. That doesn't make him an average ISO player. That's laughable. Saying he is an AVERAGE ISO player is just disrespectful, man. And hell, if we're being honest, Kyrie is the best ISO player in the league. And one of the GOAT's at it.

Heediot
03-29-2018, 08:38 AM
This is an unfair evaluation of LeBron. The guy is 6'8, 260 lbs. You can't possibly expect a player his size to have the dribbling or craftiness that a smaller player or guard would have. He's just bigger than MJ, period. MJ doesn't have the dribbling or craftiness as Kyrie. Does that make him better than MJ or LeBron? No, it just means certain players have certain go-to moves. LeBron's ISO is not average. He's actually ranked #2 in ISO scoring (though not as many PPP). In other years, he's ranked top five. LeBron passes because it's the right play. He's made some questionable passes in the clutch before but 9/10, it's the right pass to the right player for an open shot. I'm not sure why NBA fans think, "Shoot the shot" is the best option all the time. LeBron plays smart basketball. I don't care how great MJ is. I am not giving the ball to him if I need a three if Reggie Miller or Ray Allen is at the three point line. I don't care, sorry. Plus, why is sucking the defense in but his teammates not making the shot looked at as a negative for a player? That's a tremendous ability. Teams don't pack the paint unless you can get to it willingly. If LeBron's teammates (2014) can't make the shot, there isn't any other strategy out there. No one wins in the NBA playing a 1v5. If you're simply referring to the clutch in that series, there were no clutch moments to be had. Spurs just put on an amazing shooting clinic vs the Heat. Take a look at the series again. Scoring the ball wasn't as huge of a problem as defense was. Spurs shot 53% from the field and 47% from three. You're likely not going to beat a team shooting that well regardless if you're playing your A game or not. If you're referring to the 2013 series, you do have a point but like you said, it's more difficult for a player to get to the basket because teams pack the paint in the clutch. Jordan never had to deal with that zone defense at his peak. You beat your defender and you're headed straight to the basket with less coverage in the paint.

I'm also having difficulty understanding your ISO argument. You claim his ISO is average but also say that the Spurs pack the paint. They are PACKING the paint for a reason. If LeBron can draw the opposing team's defenders to him, it no longer is an ISO play. Outside of Kawhi, I don't think there is anyone in the league who can prevent LeBron from scoring on them in ISO efficiently. And this is why I said you do have a point with the 2013 series. They did force LeBron to play ISO but it was through their interior defense that forced LeBron to play more ISO. When LeBron made the pass, his teammates were forced to make the plays and by that point, Spurs had already gotten what they wanted. IMO, the issue is Miami just didn't have another dominant playmaker. Wade at that time was already falling apart as an elite player and it was simply: Force Miami to make their other players create plays.

And comparing Brady to LeBron is silly. Brady has won Superbowls off defense and a coach who has been able to make plays with players across the roster. It's not even the same sport so as to compare their solo career is impossible. Also, implying LeBron "checked out" is saying he quit. I'm not sure where that comes from but the guy has been in the NBA for 15 seasons. It wouldn't be that difficult to look at most athletes careers and nitpick a few games where they may have "quit" on their team.

The better argument is this: LeBron's shot is simply way too inconsistent at times and his FT shooting is just poor. He has games where he'll miss a few FT's in the first quarter and you just know it will be a bad FT shooting night for him and then games where he'll make all his FT's. So rather than let the opponent bait LeBron into shooting the ball, he forces the defense to make a mistake and find the open man to pass it to. If it is an ISO play and he misses, so be it. That doesn't make him an average ISO player. That's laughable. Saying he is an AVERAGE ISO player is just disrespectful, man. And hell, if we're being honest, Kyrie is the best ISO player in the league. And one of the GOAT's at it.

Bron is amazing, and he'll help your team build leads like Jeffy said with his skillset. He has skills and a brain that definitely helps. I am not saying what he does in terms of drawing a defense isn't valuable. I feel he's more dependent on a guy bailing him out vs. creating his own in really tight situations. He can't be amazing at everything. Jordan has his flaws too. I think Kobe has more mental toughness, and Kyries too. That doesn't mean they are better players. I want a guy who wants to take your soul at the end of the game. Both Bron and Jordan are driven by legacy, but I think Jordan can block it out more when he on the court in the biggest moments, he's less afraid of looking bad. I subjectively feel that yeah sometimes Bron doesn't want it because he cares about his image way too much. IT's these small things I nitpick on that makes me prefer Jordan. There are things people can argue for Bron that's legit too. I think when Jordan steps on the floor he is the most feared player in NBA history, or top 2-3 at worse, I'll take that psychological edge and his ability to execute 24-7. Both supporters have their cases, if I were being honest there is nothing that Bron can really do to change my mind about MJ being goat, that just my heavy bias and homerism. Like poster ewing, I just feel Jordan is the better player.

Mental game of sports does matter, physiologically the more fearless you are the more loose your body is which helps in performance. The less things you have going on upstairs the more clarity to have to make the better reads and play with vision and decisiveness. Everyone has bad moments both MJ and Bron. I feel Jordan has him in the mental tougher, killer instinct department. Bron has come along way in terms of mental toughness and its at a point where it's more then sufficient due to being seasoned and hardened. It's not about how early one guy won a title. I can just tell which guy wants it in the biggest moments and stages naturally regardless of if he won or hit the shot. Winning the titles and hitting the big shots is icing on the cake. Football and Basketball are different sports I do agree, I feel the elite mental toughness performers in every sport have the same traits. I don't feel Bron's focus and savageness is at their level.

In regards to ISO plays, maybe I am wrong saying he is average, but his iso game is so ugly to me that I probably neglect the execution. I still feel that in a tight situation he could be defended, regardless if its Kawhi. I don't think the Spurs shut down MJ with what they did. Bron was solid against the spurs even though they game planned for him. I think Jordan is way more versatile/skilled and would find a way to manipulate Pops strategy better. Jordan has an elite mind also, both him and Bron can tell decipher what the defense is throwing at them, but I think Jordan has more counters in his arsenal. I think I just should say LeBrons ability to break down the defender and beat him off the dribble for a mid-range jumper is average instead of iso game. With his sheer size and ability to handle the rock, sure he can get to rim just off of his physical gifts. I just don't see a lot of skill there. his back to the basket game has improved so I'll give him that.

Heediot
03-29-2018, 08:52 AM
... Edited to the post above ....

FlakeyFool
03-29-2018, 09:43 AM
Lebron is easily the goat. Donít hate, respect

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 11:45 AM
For people hating on LeBron's finals record:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5KofWsAAnhhT?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5IqEXsAAlVvd?format=jpg&name=small

I love Jordan, but he ain't going 6-0 in the finals in this era.

WaDe03
03-29-2018, 11:54 AM
For people hating on LeBron's finals record:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5KofWsAAnhhT?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5IqEXsAAlVvd?format=jpg&name=small

I love Jordan, but he ain't going 6-0 in the finals in this era.

Nope, the LeBron era has been the greatest era from top to bottom. Sorry old heads but that's facts!

valade16
03-29-2018, 12:39 PM
Nope, the LeBron era has been the greatest era from top to bottom. Sorry old heads but that's facts!

It can't really be the greatest era "from top to bottom" if the top is crushing the bottom to an unprecedented degree.

ewing
03-29-2018, 01:11 PM
For people hating on LeBron's finals record:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5KofWsAAnhhT?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5IqEXsAAlVvd?format=jpg&name=small

I love Jordan, but he ain't going 6-0 in the finals in this era.

I totally fail to grasp this argument. The teams LeBron lost to won games by a good margin so MJ with a bunch of unnamed teammates could never beat them every time? Sorry, but this argument doesn't hold any logic at all. I think MJ gives a team the best chance to win. I have no idea if he beats those teams when I have no idea who he is playing with and have never seen them play together. MJ is better in my opinion b/c he would give his team a better chance then LeBron would his. No offense but I think you guys have drifted into convoluted non sense

ewing
03-29-2018, 01:12 PM
It can't really be the greatest era "from top to bottom" if the top is crushing the bottom to an unprecedented degree.

Facts bro

nastynice
03-29-2018, 01:29 PM
For people hating on LeBron's finals record:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5KofWsAAnhhT?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCS5IqEXsAAlVvd?format=jpg&name=small

I love Jordan, but he ain't going 6-0 in the finals in this era.

OUTside of the 17 warriors, lebron hasnít faced anything Jordan hasnít seen. I donít know what that stat is, but itís got the 2015 warriors over four fold higher than the 97 jazz, lol, that should immediately tell you how worthless this stat is

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 01:53 PM
OUTside of the 17 warriors, lebron hasnít faced anything Jordan hasnít seen. I donít know what that stat is, but itís got the 2015 warriors over four fold higher than the 97 jazz, lol, that should immediately tell you how worthless this stat is

:laugh2: Your knowledge is astoundingly small. I'll be more than happy go educate you, fam.

Net rating is simple, and widely considered the best way to measure how good a team is. It's a team's point differential per 100 possessions. It's what NBA.com and BBRef and every other analyst/statistical site uses to determine which teams are the best. Example:

Warriors have a 112.7 ORtg this year which gives them the 2nd best offense in the league and a 103.6 DRtg which gives them the 5th best defense in the league - the net differential is 9.1 which ranks them as the #2 team in the league this year when combining their defense and offense.

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 01:55 PM
I only posted those 2 graphics to illustrate that Jordan doesn't go 6-0 in this era, and to get the grumpy old guys riled up. 5-1? Maybe. 4-2? Maybe. 3-3? Maybe.

The key would be measuring LeBron's teams Net differentials compared to their opponents, as well as Jordan's teams net differentials compared to their opponents.

Edit: I'll save you guys the trouble. Jordan's teams have been even or better than his finals opponents, whereas LeBron's teams were generally worse.

valade16
03-29-2018, 01:57 PM
:laugh2: Your knowledge is astoundingly small. I'll be more than happy go educate you, fam.

Net rating is simple, and widely considered the best way to measure how good a team is. It's a team's point differential per 100 possessions. It's what NBA.com and BBRef and every other analyst/statistical site uses to determine which teams are the best. Example:

Warriors have a 112.7 ORtg this year which gives them the 2nd best offense in the league and a 103.6 DRtg which gives them the 5th best defense in the league - the net differential is 9.1 which ranks them as the #2 team in the league this year when combining their defense and offense.

I doubt we have it, but what are all MJ's opponents' postseason net efficiency excluding their series vs the Bulls?

I imagine losing to the Bulls probably decreased their net efficiency.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 02:05 PM
:laugh2: Your knowledge is astoundingly small. I'll be more than happy go educate you, fam.

Net rating is simple, and widely considered the best way to measure how good a team is. It's a team's point differential per 100 possessions. It's what NBA.com and BBRef and every other analyst/statistical site uses to determine which teams are the best. Example:

Warriors have a 112.7 ORtg this year which gives them the 2nd best offense in the league and a 103.6 DRtg which gives them the 5th best defense in the league - the net differential is 9.1 which ranks them as the #2 team in the league this year when combining their defense and offense.

I got you. I'd still have to stand by what I said, if the 15 warriors are almost 5 times better than the Jazz at this, then this Stat is certainly a terrible barometer to measure how good/bad a playoff run is

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 02:10 PM
I doubt we have it, but what are all MJ's opponents' postseason net efficiency excluding their series vs the Bulls?

I imagine losing to the Bulls probably decreased their net efficiency.

Going back to '97:

The Utah Jazz, through 14 playoff games (11-3) prior to the finals had a 109.6 ORtg and 105.2 DRtg, resulting in a 4.4 Net diff.

The Chicago Bulls, through 13 playoff games (11-2) prior to the finals had a 106.6 ORtg and a 97.4 DRtg, resulting in a 9.2 Net Diff.

Going back to '98:

The Utah Jazz, through 14 playoff games (11-3) prior to the finals had a 102.2 ORtg and a 97.2 DRtg, resulting in a 5.0 Net Diff.

The Chicago Bulls, through 15 playoff games (11-4) prior to the finals had a 107.3 ORtg and a 100.8 DRtg, resulting in a 6.5 Net Diff.

ewing
03-29-2018, 02:16 PM
I only posted those 2 graphics to illustrate that Jordan doesn't go 6-0 in this era, and to get the grumpy old guys riled up. 5-1? Maybe. 4-2? Maybe. 3-3? Maybe.

The key would be measuring LeBron's teams Net differentials compared to their opponents, as well as Jordan's teams net differentials compared to their opponents.

Edit: I'll save you guys the trouble. Jordan's teams have been even or better than his finals opponents, whereas LeBron's teams were generally worse.

Maybe thatís bc Jordanís teams had Jordan. Sorry but these #s tell us nothing with regard to this debate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 02:25 PM
Maybe thatís bc Jordanís teams had Jordan. Sorry but these #s tell us nothing with regard to this debate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you say so. But I strongly doubt if you swapped Jordan with LeBron, Jordan would have the Cavs matching the 13.6 (FREAKING INSANE) net rating of the 2017 Warriors, or the 11.6 of the 2014 Spurs, or the 9.0 of the 2015 Warriors.

And honestly, if it wasn't for that brutal WCF in 2016 I bet those 2016 Warriors would have a much higher Net rating as well. That was a finals matchup in and of itself with your boy KD.

FWIW, I'm not throwing these numbers out as 'evidence' of my support for LBJ being the GOAT - my only intention was to illustrate just how vastly different LBJ's finals opponents have been and conclude that Jordan would not have a perfect finals record in this era.

ewing
03-29-2018, 02:29 PM
If you say so. But I strongly doubt if you swapped Jordan with LeBron, Jordan would have the Cavs matching the 13.6 (FREAKING INSANE) net rating of the 2017 Warriors, or the 11.6 of the 2014 Spurs, or the 9.0 of the 2015 Warriors.

And honestly, if it wasn't for that brutal WCF in 2016 I bet those 2016 Warriors would have a much higher Net rating as well. That was a finals matchup in and of itself with your boy KD.

FWIW, I'm not throwing these numbers out as 'evidence' of my support for LBJ being the GOAT - my only intention was to illustrate just how vastly different LBJ's finals opponents have been and conclude that Jordan would not have a perfect finals record in this era.
How do you know? Maybe Jordan would have landed on his own super team. If your contention is that the 97 bulls would not have beaten the Warriors I think these #s have a little relevance but that isnít the debate. Also you canít say a teams net rating would be even higher if we throw the the more competitive series. Come on V


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WaDe03
03-29-2018, 02:29 PM
It can't really be the greatest era "from top to bottom" if the top is crushing the bottom to an unprecedented degree.

The top is so much stronger that even a stronger bottom can't keep up to the level of the older eras of janitors, plumbers, and mailmen playing the game.

WaDe03
03-29-2018, 02:30 PM
Maybe thatís bc Jordanís teams had Jordan. Sorry but these #s tell us nothing with regard to this debate


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LeBron impacts the game just as much as Jordan.

ewing
03-29-2018, 02:32 PM
LeBron launches and era were teams at the top of the league are filled with superstars that joined up and then gets to use the excuse that teams at the top are sooo good


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WaDe03
03-29-2018, 02:44 PM
LeBron launches and era were teams at the top of the league are filled with superstars that joined up and then gets to use the excuse that teams at the top are sooo good


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Celtics launched that but what about Magics Lakers?

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 02:46 PM
LeBron launches and era were teams at the top of the league are filled with superstars that joined up and then gets to use the excuse that teams at the top are sooo good


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So LeBron started it? :laugh2:

nastynice
03-29-2018, 02:46 PM
Celtics launched that but what about Magics Lakers?

People don't constantly use the "celtics were too good" excuse with those Lakers tho..

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 02:52 PM
How do you know? Maybe Jordan would have landed on his own super team. If your contention is that the 97 bulls would not have beaten the Warriors I think these #s have a little relevance but that isnít the debate. Also you canít say a teams net rating would be even higher if we throw the the more competitive series. Come on V


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Because it took a once-in-a-lifetime miracle for the 2017 Warriors to come together, and the year before WITHOUT KD they broke the regular season record and were 5 points away from another championship.

And the 2014 Spurs were literally one of the greatest playoff teams of all time. What makes you so sure that Jordan would've beat the 2015-17 Warriors, and 2014 Spurs?

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 02:54 PM
People don't constantly use the "celtics were too good" excuse with those Lakers tho..

They do when we ask why Jordan couldn't succeed in the 80's.

It's all about agenda.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 03:09 PM
They do when we ask why Jordan couldn't succeed in the 80's.

It's all about agenda.

Iíve never heard that. All Iíve heard is it wasnít his time yet

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 03:21 PM
Iíve never heard that. All Iíve heard is it wasnít his time yet

I have, particularly when someone tries to use it as a knock on Jordan's resume. "Magic/Larry are all-time greats, and Jordan couldn't topple them until they got old"

Then comes the discussion about how Jordan's Bulls in the 80's didn't have anyone.

valade16
03-29-2018, 03:31 PM
Going back to '97:

The Utah Jazz, through 14 playoff games (11-3) prior to the finals had a 109.6 ORtg and 105.2 DRtg, resulting in a 4.4 Net diff.

The Chicago Bulls, through 13 playoff games (11-2) prior to the finals had a 106.6 ORtg and a 97.4 DRtg, resulting in a 9.2 Net Diff.

Going back to '98:

The Utah Jazz, through 14 playoff games (11-3) prior to the finals had a 102.2 ORtg and a 97.2 DRtg, resulting in a 5.0 Net Diff.

The Chicago Bulls, through 15 playoff games (11-4) prior to the finals had a 107.3 ORtg and a 100.8 DRtg, resulting in a 6.5 Net Diff.

Thanks, that's cool you could find that information at least for the Jazz. So it seems MJ's Bulls did have a fairly profound impact on their opposition's net Rtg.

I don't expect you to be my stat researcher but I do wonder what Bron's Finals opponent's Net Rtg's were before facing Bron's team? (If you want to give me the link to where to get this information I can look it up myself).

But beyond that, I certainly won't argue that any Finals team MJ played was as good as the Warrriors. LeBron has unquestionably faced superior teams at the top to what MJ faced in the Finals, but my point has always been he's lost to all those better teams (except the 2015 Warriors). Maybe MJ would have lost all of those, or only some. But my point has always been I seriously doubt MJ loses to the 2011 Mavs.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2018, 03:37 PM
LeBron launches and era were teams at the top of the league are filled with superstars that joined up and then gets to use the excuse that teams at the top are sooo good


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I mean, there has never been the parity many portray in the NBA. Players are simply doing the jobs GMs did years ago. The only difference is the decision makers. I get it though, we want to praise guys from the old days for having great GM's that landed them amazing roster help, but kill guys for bettering their own situations today. Insanely hypocritical, but I also get that is how it works.

Jordan used to make demands of the front office left and right. He damn straight would have bolted a team today if they didn't give him help to win.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2018, 03:39 PM
If you say so. But I strongly doubt if you swapped Jordan with LeBron, Jordan would have the Cavs matching the 13.6 (FREAKING INSANE) net rating of the 2017 Warriors, or the 11.6 of the 2014 Spurs, or the 9.0 of the 2015 Warriors.

And honestly, if it wasn't for that brutal WCF in 2016 I bet those 2016 Warriors would have a much higher Net rating as well. That was a finals matchup in and of itself with your boy KD.

FWIW, I'm not throwing these numbers out as 'evidence' of my support for LBJ being the GOAT - my only intention was to illustrate just how vastly different LBJ's finals opponents have been and conclude that Jordan would not have a perfect finals record in this era.

2017 Warriors
2016 Warriors
2015 Warriors
2014 Spurs

all better teams than anything Jordan played against. 2 of them laughably better. Would Jordan have been enough to have a better finals record than LeBron with the same rosters? Probably. But no way he runs the table today in LeBron's position. None.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 03:39 PM
I have, particularly when someone tries to use it as a knock on Jordan's resume. "Magic/Larry are all-time greats, and Jordan couldn't topple them until they got old"

Then comes the discussion about how Jordan's Bulls in the 80's didn't have anyone.

I've legitimately never heard people say, well that was a super team, of course he couldn't win

I hear it with lebron all the time, legit I don't hear that with Jordan. With him, it's just, oh well he was developing, still learning how to win

nastynice
03-29-2018, 03:42 PM
2017 Warriors
2016 Warriors
2015 Warriors
2014 Spurs

all better teams than anything Jordan played against. 2 of them laughably better. Would Jordan have been enough to have a better finals record than LeBron with the same rosters? Probably. But no way he runs the table today in LeBron's position. None.

I never gave it much thought before, but now I think of it, I definitely feel Jordan would won the 2015 finals if in Lebrons position

14 spurs and 16 warriors are in the same category as the jazz and suns that Jordan beat.

The only team that Lebrons faced that's beyond anything Jordan has is the 17 warriors. The 17 warriors team is arguably on par with Jordans second three peat team, so no, Jordan never faced anyone as good

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 03:44 PM
OUTside of the 17 warriors, lebron hasnít faced anything Jordan hasnít seen. I donít know what that stat is, but itís got the 2015 warriors over four fold higher than the 97 jazz, lol, that should immediately tell you how worthless this stat is

So you have this preconceived notion that the 97 Jazz are an elite team in any era, and because a stat doesn't align with that preconceived notion that you have, the stat is wrong, not your opinion?

Objectivity is somehow dying in a world of information.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 03:45 PM
I only posted those 2 graphics to illustrate that Jordan doesn't go 6-0 in this era, and to get the grumpy old guys riled up. 5-1? Maybe. 4-2? Maybe. 3-3? Maybe.

The key would be measuring LeBron's teams Net differentials compared to their opponents, as well as Jordan's teams net differentials compared to their opponents.

Edit: I'll save you guys the trouble. Jordan's teams have been even or better than his finals opponents, whereas LeBron's teams were generally worse.

Well, and the East.

What happens if Jordan has to meet the current Cavs in the Eastern Conference finals every year?

Both teams can't advance every year.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 03:46 PM
Maybe thatís bc Jordanís teams had Jordan. Sorry but these #s tell us nothing with regard to this debate


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The discussion was about help. Jordan's team, and Bron's teams, and what they were facing.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 03:47 PM
LeBron launches and era were teams at the top of the league are filled with superstars that joined up and then gets to use the excuse that teams at the top are sooo good


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Bron was on this team?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2008.html

nastynice
03-29-2018, 03:50 PM
So you have this preconceived notion that the 97 Jazz are an elite team in any era, and because a stat doesn't align with that preconceived notion that you have, the stat is wrong, not your opinion?

Objectivity is somehow dying in a world of information.

The Stat isn't wrong. Saying the Stat makes this team better than that team is wrong

How could my opinion of the jazz be preconceived if they are from the past?

valade16
03-29-2018, 03:51 PM
Can we all agree that although LeBron wasn't on the first super team of the current era, he was the first to as a FA leave and go to a super team?

It seems both sides are trying to impose both facts on the other and that's where the constant disagreement is.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 03:51 PM
Well, and the East.

What happens if Jordan has to meet the current Cavs in the Eastern Conference finals every year?

Both teams can't advance every year.

If they met in the ECF for six years straight, Jordans ECF record would look like his finals record

ewing
03-29-2018, 03:59 PM
Because it took a once-in-a-lifetime miracle for the 2017 Warriors to come together, and the year before WITHOUT KD they broke the regular season record and were 5 points away from another championship.

And the 2014 Spurs were literally one of the greatest playoff teams of all time. What makes you so sure that Jordan would've beat the 2015-17 Warriors, and 2014 Spurs?

Iím not sure. I keep saying I have no idea. I donít even know who he is playing with


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Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 04:06 PM
Can we all agree that although LeBron wasn't on the first super team of the current era, he was the first to as a FA leave and go to a super team?


Their side doesn't want to agree on this. Because if they do, then they lose any perceived 'ammunition' they have regarding the notion that LeBron needs super-teams to win. Instead, the manner in which a super team is formed becomes only a question of that player's competitiveness.

Simply put: it would no longer support their argument against LeBron on the subject of ability.

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 04:10 PM
I've legitimately never heard people say, well that was a super team, of course he couldn't win

I hear it with lebron all the time, legit I don't hear that with Jordan. With him, it's just, oh well he was developing, still learning how to win

I've heard it before. Up until the last calendar year or so, I had Jordan as the GOAT.

Pretend with me that the 2015-17 Warriors were the team the Bulls faced in their 2nd 3-peat. If the Bulls lose any one of those championships to the Warriors, you honestly don't think that the overwhelming mass of MJ fans wouldn't use opponent's greater talent as an excuse for the blemish on Jordan's finals record?

Honest question here.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2018, 04:22 PM
I never gave it much thought before, but now I think of it, I definitely feel Jordan would won the 2015 finals if in Lebrons position

14 spurs and 16 warriors are in the same category as the jazz and suns that Jordan beat.

The only team that Lebrons faced that's beyond anything Jordan has is the 17 warriors. The 17 warriors team is arguably on par with Jordans second three peat team, so no, Jordan never faced anyone as good

yep, you are wrong. Sorry. Jordan isn't carrying a roster without Irving/Love against the Warriors. Not a chance.

No, those teams were better than the Jazz. The 98' Jazz on paper might have a case to stand next to the 2014 Spurs, but when we factor in the level of play the Spurs played at starting in round 2 that year, the Jazz no longer stand with them.

A great statistical study was done on this less than a year ago. Here are the 3 items that stand out:


That basically means the average team Jordan faced in the NBA Finals is the same as the worst team James ever played on the biggest stage.


Perhaps more surprising is taking stock of Jordan's earlier opponents. Though the 1991 Lakers rate as a powerful opponent, the 1992 Portland Trail Blazers, 1993 Phoenix Suns and 1996 Seattle SuperSonics all rate as worse opponents than the 2007 Spurs, who rank as the easiest team James has ever faced


That basically means the average team Jordan faced in the NBA Finals is the same as the worst team James ever played on the biggest stage.

Hawkeye15
03-29-2018, 04:24 PM
Can we all agree that although LeBron wasn't on the first super team of the current era, he was the first to as a FA leave and go to a super team?

It seems both sides are trying to impose both facts on the other and that's where the constant disagreement is.

my quote from above addresses this


I mean, there has never been the parity many portray in the NBA. Players are simply doing the jobs GMs did years ago. The only difference is the decision makers. I get it though, we want to praise guys from the old days for having great GM's that landed them amazing roster help, but kill guys for bettering their own situations today. Insanely hypocritical, but I also get that is how it works.

Jordan used to make demands of the front office left and right. He damn straight would have bolted a team today if they didn't give him help to win.

yes, LeBron is the first player ever to be on a great team built via FA. My question is, who the **** cares?

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2018, 04:28 PM
I've legitimately never heard people say, well that was a super team, of course he couldn't win

I hear it with lebron all the time, legit I don't hear that with Jordan. With him, it's just, oh well he was developing, still learning how to win

That's why you just rank/judge players on what they do day 1 they step foot on the court, Jordan and Lebron dominated day 1, it didn't take them years to see what they were going to do, the best showcase it pre nba

when you start throwing rings and other non sense it takes away from actually seeing how one dominates because of the media driven rings talk

Jordan was the best player upon his entrance in 84'(no worse than top 5), while others won 'rings'
Lebron was a top 5-10 player upon his entrance in 03' while others were winning rings prior to the 12' season when he first got his

its really that simple but nowadays you can be labeled a superstar after a good 15 game stretch, not the normal decade format that it use to be and always should be

Hawkeye15
03-29-2018, 04:28 PM
I am not even sure what the argument is anymore. We will all carry our own personal opinions on who is better. I have Jordan, because of the 2011 Mavs series. That's it. They are on the same tier, they are the only peers each other has at this point (KAJ/Wilt are the only mentions not slap worthy), and we can fight all day long about who would win with what. Jordan ain't going 6-0 today. Not if you bring his Bulls team to now, or if you flip him into LeBron's exact spot. The perfect opponents/time happened for Jordan. It doesn't take anything away from his greatness, unlike LeBron, Jordan never lost to a lesser opponent which LeBron did. And that is the one thing we can take and run with.

europagnpilgrim
03-29-2018, 04:32 PM
I am not even sure what the argument is anymore. We will all carry our own personal opinions on who is better. I have Jordan, because of the 2011 Mavs series. That's it. They are on the same tier, they are the only peers each other has at this point (KAJ/Wilt are the only mentions not slap worthy), and we can fight all day long about who would win with what. Jordan ain't going 6-0 today. Not if you bring his Bulls team to now, or if you flip him into LeBron's exact spot. The perfect opponents/time happened for Jordan. It doesn't take anything away from his greatness, unlike LeBron, Jordan never lost to a lesser opponent which LeBron did. And that is the one thing we can take and run with.

Depends on Jordan mind frame in todays game, its like how he wouldn't want to play with Bird/Magic/Barkley but would recognize to compete he has to team up with a Ewing or whoever else mentioned to have a chance to beat Dubs, and we all know Jordan was the ultimate maniac ego winner, hell he took on Rodman after getting smacked around by those guys for years so you know all Jordan cared about was winning big and at all cost, hello refs/stern

so Jordan maybe could have ran the table or wouldn't get there as much and be probably 3/4-0 and not the 6 6 6 crown that he wears now, 6 titles 6 appearances 6 finals mvps

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 04:32 PM
Thanks, that's cool you could find that information at least for the Jazz. So it seems MJ's Bulls did have a fairly profound impact on their opposition's net Rtg.

I don't expect you to be my stat researcher but I do wonder what Bron's Finals opponent's Net Rtg's were before facing Bron's team? (If you want to give me the link to where to get this information I can look it up myself).

But beyond that, I certainly won't argue that any Finals team MJ played was as good as the Warrriors. LeBron has unquestionably faced superior teams at the top to what MJ faced in the Finals, but my point has always been he's lost to all those better teams (except the 2015 Warriors). Maybe MJ would have lost all of those, or only some. But my point has always been I seriously doubt MJ loses to the 2011 Mavs.

http://stats.nba.com/teams/advanced/?sort=W&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&VsConference=West

You use the advanced filters to adjust the conferences. So when I change it to VS. WEST, for example, the Warriors went 12-0 against the WC in 2017 with a 115.8 ORtg and 99.1 DRtg for a 16.8 Net Rating, prior to the finals.

When you switch it to VS ALL CONFERENCES, it shows the Warriors ended up with a 116.3 ORtg and a 102.8 DRtg for a 13.6 Net (give or take many decimals).

In 2016, Warriors had a 8.9 Net vs. the West and a 6.3 Net at the conclusion of the finals.

Then you just do that for every year.

Vee-Rex
03-29-2018, 04:53 PM
I am not even sure what the argument is anymore. We will all carry our own personal opinions on who is better. I have Jordan, because of the 2011 Mavs series. That's it. They are on the same tier, they are the only peers each other has at this point (KAJ/Wilt are the only mentions not slap worthy), and we can fight all day long about who would win with what. Jordan ain't going 6-0 today. Not if you bring his Bulls team to now, or if you flip him into LeBron's exact spot. The perfect opponents/time happened for Jordan. It doesn't take anything away from his greatness, unlike LeBron, Jordan never lost to a lesser opponent which LeBron did. And that is the one thing we can take and run with.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/60525346.jpg

IKnowHoops
03-29-2018, 05:08 PM
How do you know? Maybe Jordan would have landed on his own super team. If your contention is that the 97 bulls would not have beaten the Warriors I think these #s have a little relevance but that isnít the debate. Also you canít say a teams net rating would be even higher if we throw the the more competitive series. Come on V


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Lol...great another point that has nothing to do with who is better. The Jordan argument has a lot. Iím fine either way on that debate. I think itís pretty even. I go Bron.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 05:10 PM
The Stat isn't wrong. Saying the Stat makes this team better than that team is wrong

How could my opinion of the jazz be preconceived if they are from the past?

The preconceived part is that it's your opinion prior to this discussion.

You dismissed the stat because it doesn't align with what you are already think/believe.


People do this every where. They look for what's wrong with the information or how faulty it must be and insert their biases, instead of analyzing what they thought to be true and potentially changing those thoughts based on new and additional information being brought forth.


Also, that's far from the only stat that is going to create that sort of basis.


The 97-98 Jazz won 62 games, and had a slightly below league average strength of schedule. They were the height of Stockton and Malone and their pick and roll/pick and pop power, and Hornacek and Russell were great complimentary players.

But this isn't some all time Jazz team. Malone and Stockton are 34. Jeff Hornack is a complimentary player only. Russell is off the bench and giving what he can, and Greg Foster is the center 'helper'. The rest of the team is forgettable. It's two good players, both of whom focus on basically one style of offense, and a bunch of guys trying to help on defense. It's a good team, but I wouldn't even really call them a title contender.

Hakeem is no longer a dominating two way player carrying the Rockets to contention.
Shaq is still a baby, and has no help outside of a few point guards who can lob it into him.
The Sonics just lost Kemp, and Payton is trying to develop a team without his athletic finisher
Tim Duncan is a rookie and David Robinson is starting to regress, but they gave the Jazz a good challenge in 5 games.

Who else is going to give the Jazz any trouble in the west at this point?

They scored 8282 points in the regular season, and allowed 7741 points (avg differential of 6.60 ppg).

About the differential of the Bulls, and worse than the Lakers (who they swept), and the Pacers, who the Bulls beat in 7 and the Sonics (who lost to the Lakers)

The Jazz were the one seed, but they were literally only one game better than the Lakers and Sonics, both of whom might have been better matchups against the Jordan led Bulls. This would certainly have been Shaq's best chance to beat Jordan, and really last chance because of Jordan retiring and Shaq finally entering his prime. Of course, Kemp is no longer in Seattle at this point, spending his first year in Cleveland, but the Sonics are still a good team led by Payton, and would have had good perimeter defense.

The Jazz weren't heads above the rest of the West, but they certainly won it, and they swept in the WCF which makes it feel like they were. Only one of those games wasn't close, and Shaq completely went off that series. Just nobody else helped him all series (Kobe only played 87 minutes as a 19 year old), Eddie Jones was his second best player in terms of performance, and Rick Fox, Van Exel, Horry, and Fisher all sucked.

I don't see a single team in the West during this era that could have beat Jordan. Outside of maybe Clyde and Hakeem on the Rockets at the same time....but we never saw that matchup, and those guys were getting pretty old at this point...but the matchup would have been great in terms of pairing talent.

I see plenty of teams in our current era in the West that could/would beat Jordan.

And we compare Jordan to Bron because Bron isn't just winning a title every year. But Jordan was whipping chips when the matchup from the West was waaaay easier.

Bron would beat the 97-98 Jazz this year if he had them. Just like Jordan did. And the numbers easily bear that out.

When you are given a stat, you can't say the stat is faulty because you don't agree with it's conclusion. That's working backward and showing your bias.

If you don't agree with a stat, learn about it, find it's flaws, and discuss them. But just because a stat doesn't agree with your opinion, doesn't make the stat wrong. And we live in a world where nobody evaluates their opinions for errors, they argue with the data that tells them they are wrong instead.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 05:30 PM
I am not even sure what the argument is anymore. We will all carry our own personal opinions on who is better. I have Jordan, because of the 2011 Mavs series. That's it. They are on the same tier, they are the only peers each other has at this point (KAJ/Wilt are the only mentions not slap worthy), and we can fight all day long about who would win with what. Jordan ain't going 6-0 today. Not if you bring his Bulls team to now, or if you flip him into LeBron's exact spot. The perfect opponents/time happened for Jordan. It doesn't take anything away from his greatness, unlike LeBron, Jordan never lost to a lesser opponent which LeBron did. And that is the one thing we can take and run with.

So then the question becomes.


Can Bron surpass Jordan as the all-time Goat by simply playing so much more in his career and dominating for so much longer?

Do the career counting stats add up to make him pass him up? He's gonna legit play at least 25% more than Jordan ever did.

Or does that feel like Kareem/Malone, staying in playing shape long enough to amass stats, but not really being elite when on the court into their 40's?

nastynice
03-29-2018, 05:37 PM
I've heard it before. Up until the last calendar year or so, I had Jordan as the GOAT.

Pretend with me that the 2015-17 Warriors were the team the Bulls faced in their 2nd 3-peat. If the Bulls lose any one of those championships to the Warriors, you honestly don't think that the overwhelming mass of MJ fans wouldn't use opponent's greater talent as an excuse for the blemish on Jordan's finals record?

Honest question here.

I honestly donít. That was never really a thing until lebron. Yea Kobeís team sucked but that was only in the context of a rebuild. When they lost to Boston no one used the great team excuse, or the big 3 excuse, or whatever. They just lost, period.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 05:55 PM
yep, you are wrong. Sorry. Jordan isn't carrying a roster without Irving/Love against the Warriors. Not a chance.

No, those teams were better than the Jazz. The 98' Jazz on paper might have a case to stand next to the 2014 Spurs, but when we factor in the level of play the Spurs played at starting in round 2 that year, the Jazz no longer stand with them.

A great statistical study was done on this less than a year ago. Here are the 3 items that stand out:

I'm not a stats guy, and this only strengthens my position on that.

More-Than-Most
03-29-2018, 06:04 PM
So then the question becomes.


Can Bron surpass Jordan as the all-time Goat by simply playing so much more in his career and dominating for so much longer?

Do the career counting stats add up to make him pass him up? He's gonna legit play at least 25% more than Jordan ever did.

Or does that feel like Kareem/Malone, staying in playing shape long enough to amass stats, but not really being elite when on the court into their 40's?

it should considering the majority of the world has Kobe as high as he is because of longevity... People cant push kobe above other and then not give Bron the same respect.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 06:09 PM
The preconceived part is that it's your opinion prior to this discussion.

You dismissed the stat because it doesn't align with what you are already think/believe.


People do this every where. They look for what's wrong with the information or how faulty it must be and insert their biases, instead of analyzing what they thought to be true and potentially changing those thoughts based on new and additional information being brought forth.


Also, that's far from the only stat that is going to create that sort of basis.


The 97-98 Jazz won 62 games, and had a slightly below league average strength of schedule. They were the height of Stockton and Malone and their pick and roll/pick and pop power, and Hornacek and Russell were great complimentary players.

But this isn't some all time Jazz team. Malone and Stockton are 34. Jeff Hornack is a complimentary player only. Russell is off the bench and giving what he can, and Greg Foster is the center 'helper'. The rest of the team is forgettable. It's two good players, both of whom focus on basically one style of offense, and a bunch of guys trying to help on defense. It's a good team, but I wouldn't even really call them a title contender.

Hakeem is no longer a dominating two way player carrying the Rockets to contention.
Shaq is still a baby, and has no help outside of a few point guards who can lob it into him.
The Sonics just lost Kemp, and Payton is trying to develop a team without his athletic finisher
Tim Duncan is a rookie and David Robinson is starting to regress, but they gave the Jazz a good challenge in 5 games.

Who else is going to give the Jazz any trouble in the west at this point?

They scored 8282 points in the regular season, and allowed 7741 points (avg differential of 6.60 ppg).

About the differential of the Bulls, and worse than the Lakers (who they swept), and the Pacers, who the Bulls beat in 7 and the Sonics (who lost to the Lakers)

The Jazz were the one seed, but they were literally only one game better than the Lakers and Sonics, both of whom might have been better matchups against the Jordan led Bulls. This would certainly have been Shaq's best chance to beat Jordan, and really last chance because of Jordan retiring and Shaq finally entering his prime. Of course, Kemp is no longer in Seattle at this point, spending his first year in Cleveland, but the Sonics are still a good team led by Payton, and would have had good perimeter defense.

The Jazz weren't heads above the rest of the West, but they certainly won it, and they swept in the WCF which makes it feel like they were. Only one of those games wasn't close, and Shaq completely went off that series. Just nobody else helped him all series (Kobe only played 87 minutes as a 19 year old), Eddie Jones was his second best player in terms of performance, and Rick Fox, Van Exel, Horry, and Fisher all sucked.

I don't see a single team in the West during this era that could have beat Jordan. Outside of maybe Clyde and Hakeem on the Rockets at the same time....but we never saw that matchup, and those guys were getting pretty old at this point...but the matchup would have been great in terms of pairing talent.

I see plenty of teams in our current era in the West that could/would beat Jordan.

And we compare Jordan to Bron because Bron isn't just winning a title every year. But Jordan was whipping chips when the matchup from the West was waaaay easier.

Bron would beat the 97-98 Jazz this year if he had them. Just like Jordan did. And the numbers easily bear that out.

When you are given a stat, you can't say the stat is faulty because you don't agree with it's conclusion. That's working backward and showing your bias.

If you don't agree with a stat, learn about it, find it's flaws, and discuss them. But just because a stat doesn't agree with your opinion, doesn't make the stat wrong. And we live in a world where nobody evaluates their opinions for errors, they argue with the data that tells them they are wrong instead.

Again, I never said the stat was wrong, I said saying that stat makes one team better than another is wrong

Lebrons opponents won games by more points. Great. That means nothing to me. If my team beats the rockets by 10 and beats the Lakers by 3,thats not gonna make me somehow rank the Lakers above the rockets. That's essentially one of the things this stat does

This year LeBron had a 3 month stretch of one of the worst plus and minus and one of the worst defensive efficiency ratings in the league. Are you gonna go with the stat that says he can't play even average defense, or are you gonna go with your eyes and say he is capable?

Cmon man, those stats aren't gonna somehow make me forget watching these teams and retroactively change my opinion on them

valade16
03-29-2018, 06:11 PM
So then the question becomes.

Can Bron surpass Jordan as the all-time Goat by simply playing so much more in his career and dominating for so much longer?

Do the career counting stats add up to make him pass him up? He's gonna legit play at least 25% more than Jordan ever did.

Or does that feel like Kareem/Malone, staying in playing shape long enough to amass stats, but not really being elite when on the court into their 40's?

I was going to say, it hasn't really mattered for Kareem. He has more counting stats than MJ, played long and even has more MVPs, and he has an amazing peak himself. Still not considered GOAT over MJ by most.

nastynice
03-29-2018, 06:16 PM
I was going to say, it hasn't really mattered for Kareem. He has more counting stats than MJ, played long and even has more MVPs, and he has an amazing peak himself. Still not considered GOAT over MJ by most.

Both players are in the same tier, along with lebron

But that specific title of goat, which I think is kinda overall bs anyway, comes down to the 6 of 6. Thatís all it comes down to.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 09:40 PM
Again, I never said the stat was wrong, I said saying that stat makes one team better than another is wrong

That isn't what you said, you said


OUTside of the 17 warriors, lebron hasnít faced anything Jordan hasnít seen. I donít know what that stat is, but itís got the 2015 warriors over four fold higher than the 97 jazz, lol, that should immediately tell you how worthless this stat is

You are discounting the stat because you don't like the result.

Nobody said one stat fits all.



Lebrons opponents won games by more points. Great. That means nothing to me. If my team beats the rockets by 10 and beats the Lakers by 3,thats not gonna make me somehow rank the Lakers above the rockets. That's essentially one of the things this stat does
Point differential says a ton about a teams ability to score and create. Yes, some games are garbage by the 4th. But loses count against that point differential, and it says a lot about the potency and value of those teams.

You are also looking at this too micro.

One game doesn't matter. It's what it is over 82 games.

Winning by 10 points on average for 82 games, and winning by 3 points by average over 82 games is a **** ton and those are vastly different teams.


This year LeBron had a 3 month stretch of one of the worst plus and minus and one of the worst defensive efficiency ratings in the league.
You do know that Jordan had plenty of stretches like that too, right?


Are you gonna go with the stat that says he can't play even average defense, or are you gonna go with your eyes and say he is capable?
Capable of, and results are two very different things.

Also, these are team aspects, not individual stats. If Bron's guy is scoring 25 a night, but it's because he constantly has to help his other defenders, that's worth noting. Defense tends to be a team skill set, with individual great players carrying a lot of load from time to time.



Cmon man, those stats aren't gonna somehow make me forget watching these teams and retroactively change my opinion on them
What I believe you should be able to do, is receive information. And when it contradicts your opinions and biases, is to analyze what that information is telling you, and adjust wherever necessary. Objectively look at this stuff, and not trust your completely fallible and faulty memory as the best evidence.

Our brains suck. We constantly get beat in simple brain twists, and we can't analyze and objectively measure things very well with our eyes. Nor can we do it in macro sizes, like professional sports. We like to think higher of our human bodies, but really, our brain and eyes fail a lot. Then add 20 years in there for memory, and you have a crap shoot.

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 10:58 PM
I was going to say, it hasn't really mattered for Kareem. He has more counting stats than MJ, played long and even has more MVPs, and he has an amazing peak himself. Still not considered GOAT over MJ by most.

But I don't think his peak carried longer than MJ's

Kareem's peak was probably 69-81 (12 seasons)
Then probably 90% of that good for 5 seasons
Then 75% of his peak for 3 seasons

Michael was in his peak probably 13 of his 15 seasons (with two of those years partially missed because of the injury and the in-season come back)
And 2 seasons where he was 75% of his former self

LeBron's rookie year, he wasn't into his peak like Kareem and Jordan were. But by year two, he clearly was, and he is still at that level. That's 14 seasons of peak play already, which is a longer peak already than Kareem and Jordan, and he is putting up numbers at their levels.

I'd say Kobe's peak was 00-13, 13 seasons. First four years were development, and last 3 were hurt and a shell of his former self.

Has anyone else demonstrated a 14 year peak in the NBA? A peak that rivals at all time great levels?

Shaq had like 8 years of peak play, Malone had like 12 or so.

How many peak seasons can a guy put up, that are already elite playing levels all time as individual seasons, before he just surpasses Jordan universally?

If Bron gives the NBA another 3 seasons at his last 14 levels, how can he not be the GOAT?

Jeffy25
03-29-2018, 10:59 PM
Both players are in the same tier, along with lebron

But that specific title of goat, which I think is kinda overall bs anyway, comes down to the 6 of 6. Thatís all it comes down to.

Then do the other 7 seasons that he made the playoffs and lost before reaching the Finals not count against him or something?

Losing in the playoffs before the Finals and that not counting against you is the funniest thing I hear about when people talk about 6 for 6.

Especially when you add in the information that Hawk has been sharing.

valade16
03-29-2018, 11:24 PM
Then do the other 7 seasons that he made the playoffs and lost before reaching the Finals not count against him or something?

Losing in the playoffs before the Finals and that not counting against you is the funniest thing I hear about when people talk about 6 for 6.

Especially when you add in the information that Hawk has been sharing.

Sure they ďcount against himĒ but they are overshadowed by his 6 rings. Kind of like when you get a 97/100 on a test the 3 missed questions become kind of irrelevant next to the 97 correct ones.

Even if you donít say it as 6/6, how about the fact he won 6 rings as the man, which is more than any modern elite level player in modern NBA history?

Jeffy25
03-30-2018, 01:12 AM
Sure they ďcount against himĒ but they are overshadowed by his 6 rings. Kind of like when you get a 97/100 on a test the 3 missed questions become kind of irrelevant next to the 97 correct ones.

Even if you donít say it as 6/6, how about the fact he won 6 rings as the man, which is more than any modern elite level player in modern NBA history?

Then you can't say 97 out of 97.


He wasn't 6 out of 6

He won the Finals 6 times, and played in 15 seasons lol.


6 for 6 is the most meaningless thing ever thrown out there.

Kobe won, what 2 chips as the man?
Bron 3?
Russell with like 11, but totally different era
Kareem won how many as the man? He has 6 titles, but he was only the 'man' like once, he had Magic for 5 of them, then again, Jordan did have Pippen as a sidekick too.
Magic got 5 rings then as the man. Or at least, someone should get credit for these rings.
Bird was what, 4 of them?
What does Duncan get?


The point? He won 6 rings. So did a lot of other guys, and he did it in an era where one guy could win a ring. That's beyond being a possibility any longer.

I don't see rings as individual accomplishments.

ewing
03-30-2018, 07:23 AM
Sure they ďcount against himĒ but they are overshadowed by his 6 rings. Kind of like when you get a 97/100 on a test the 3 missed questions become kind of irrelevant next to the 97 correct ones.

Even if you donít say it as 6/6, how about the fact he won 6 rings as the man, which is more than any modern elite level player in modern NBA history?

I donít think they really do bc even when he was losing to Celtics as a young player Micheal Jordan was the best player on the floor. Not Larry Bird. Micheal Jordan. Same is true for Bron losing to the Warriors the first time. I donít hold that one against Bron. He did his thing.

Jordan was always the best player on the floor. Maybe a game here and there but not a series. He can lose. anyone can lose he happened to stop losing when he got a little help bc he was so good. Weíve seen LeBron get out played just not often. He has lost more then he got out played. Micheal didnít get outplayed though. Either Micheal was better or he was playing against worse guys bc Micheal was always the best guy on floor


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ewing
03-30-2018, 07:27 AM
Then you can't say 97 out of 97.


He wasn't 6 out of 6

He won the Finals 6 times, and played in 15 seasons lol.


6 for 6 is the most meaningless thing ever thrown out there.

Kobe won, what 2 chips as the man?
Bron 3?
Russell with like 11, but totally different era
Kareem won how many as the man? He has 6 titles, but he was only the 'man' like once, he had Magic for 5 of them, then again, Jordan did have Pippen as a sidekick too.
Magic got 5 rings then as the man. Or at least, someone should get credit for these rings.
Bird was what, 4 of them?
What does Duncan get?


The point? He won 6 rings. So did a lot of other guys, and he did it in an era where one guy could win a ring. That's beyond being a possibility any longer.

I don't see rings as individual accomplishments.

He went to 6 finals. He won 6 finals. In 6 finals he was hands down the best performer on either team. I donít know I think it means something


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valade16
03-30-2018, 12:42 PM
That isn't what you said, you said

You are discounting the stat because you don't like the result.

Nobody said one stat fits all.

Point differential says a ton about a teams ability to score and create. Yes, some games are garbage by the 4th. But loses count against that point differential, and it says a lot about the potency and value of those teams.

You are also looking at this too micro.

One game doesn't matter. It's what it is over 82 games.

Winning by 10 points on average for 82 games, and winning by 3 points by average over 82 games is a **** ton and those are vastly different teams.

You do know that Jordan had plenty of stretches like that too, right?

Capable of, and results are two very different things.

Also, these are team aspects, not individual stats. If Bron's guy is scoring 25 a night, but it's because he constantly has to help his other defenders, that's worth noting. Defense tends to be a team skill set, with individual great players carrying a lot of load from time to time.

What I believe you should be able to do, is receive information. And when it contradicts your opinions and biases, is to analyze what that information is telling you, and adjust wherever necessary. Objectively look at this stuff, and not trust your completely fallible and faulty memory as the best evidence.

Our brains suck. We constantly get beat in simple brain twists, and we can't analyze and objectively measure things very well with our eyes. Nor can we do it in macro sizes, like professional sports. We like to think higher of our human bodies, but really, our brain and eyes fail a lot. Then add 20 years in there for memory, and you have a crap shoot.

Well as I understood what Vee-Rex posted that Net Efficiency was for their playoffs only, so basically that is 16-28 games worth of data.

If you look at the net efficiency of MJ's Finals opponents for the 82 game regular season they are:

91 Lakers 112.1 Ortg, 105 Drtg - +7.1
92 Blazers 111.4 Ortg, 104.2 Drtg - +7.2
93 Suns 113.3 Ortg, 106.7 Drtg - +6.6
96 Sonics 110.3 Ortg, 102.1 Drtg - +8.2
97 Jazz 113.6 Ortg, 104.0 Drtg - +9.6
98 Jazz 112.7 Ortg, 105.4 Drtg - +7.3

So already we see their efficiency differential being way higher over a season than their short playoff runs. You could argue their small playoff efficiency differential is because of how stacked and difficult it was to get through the West and then the loss of efficiency when facing MJ's Bulls (The Jazz efficiency went from +2.7 and +1.6 to +5.0 and +4.4 just from not including the Bulls series). Compare that to LeBron's opponents:

07 Spurs 109.2 Ortg, 99.9 Drtg - +9.3
11 Mavs 109.7 Ortg, 105.0 Drtg - +4.7
12 Thunder 109.8 Ortg, 103.2 Drtg - +6.6
13 Spurs 108.3 Ortg, 101.6 Drtg - +6.7
14 Spurs 110.5 Ortg, 102.4 Drtg - +8.1
15 Warriors 111.6 Ortg, 101.4 Drtg - +10.2
16 Warriors 114.5 Ortg, 103.8 Drtg - +10.7
17 Warriors 115.6 Ortg, 104.0 Drtg - +11.6


So according to that the 97 Jazz were as good or better than every Finals Bron faced except GS. And the only team MJ faced that was as bad as the 13 Spurs or 12 Thunder was the 93 Suns, and he never faced a team as bad as the Mavs (and certainly didn't lose to a team that bad).

So taking out GS, Bron's Finals record vs comparable teams to what MJ faced is still only 2-3.

ewing
03-30-2018, 12:45 PM
I have to say V-Rex you started quite a stupid debate


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Vee-Rex
03-30-2018, 12:47 PM
I have to say V-Rex you started quite a stupid debate


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:laugh2:

:hi5:

nastynice
03-30-2018, 02:13 PM
That isn't what you said, you said



You are discounting the stat because you don't like the result.

Nobody said one stat fits all.



Point differential says a ton about a teams ability to score and create. Yes, some games are garbage by the 4th. But loses count against that point differential, and it says a lot about the potency and value of those teams.

You are also looking at this too micro.

One game doesn't matter. It's what it is over 82 games.

Winning by 10 points on average for 82 games, and winning by 3 points by average over 82 games is a **** ton and those are vastly different teams.


You do know that Jordan had plenty of stretches like that too, right?


Capable of, and results are two very different things.

Also, these are team aspects, not individual stats. If Bron's guy is scoring 25 a night, but it's because he constantly has to help his other defenders, that's worth noting. Defense tends to be a team skill set, with individual great players carrying a lot of load from time to time.



What I believe you should be able to do, is receive information. And when it contradicts your opinions and biases, is to analyze what that information is telling you, and adjust wherever necessary. Objectively look at this stuff, and not trust your completely fallible and faulty memory as the best evidence.

Our brains suck. We constantly get beat in simple brain twists, and we can't analyze and objectively measure things very well with our eyes. Nor can we do it in macro sizes, like professional sports. We like to think higher of our human bodies, but really, our brain and eyes fail a lot. Then add 20 years in there for memory, and you have a crap shoot.

Saying the Stat is worthless isn't me saying the Stat is wrong, it's me saying that the stat has very little value in the context of our discussion.

I'm not discounting the stat because I don't like the result, I'm discounting it because it's an inaccurate barometer for measure of how good an opponent is.

If point differential or record was the barometer, then you're telling me the '16 warriors are better than the' 17 warriors. But from WATCHING these teams I can tell you the '17 warriors are better, doesn't matter what the record or point differential was.

Jordan had stretches of having the worst def efficiency rating in the league? I can't buy that at face value..

Also, your response basically says what I'm saying about your stat, his guy may score a lot for many reasons you may not know unless you WATCH the game. Same way I watched those jazz and Lebrons opponents, they are on par, some point differential stat isn't gonna change that

The only adjustment necessary is to take that garbage stat out of the discussion

nastynice
03-30-2018, 02:18 PM
Then do the other 7 seasons that he made the playoffs and lost before reaching the Finals not count against him or something?

Losing in the playoffs before the Finals and that not counting against you is the funniest thing I hear about when people talk about 6 for 6.

Especially when you add in the information that Hawk has been sharing.

As far as him being goat, no those losses aren't that big a deal. The whole thing with Jordan is, soon as he got a capable team, he was perfect.technically he wasn't, but in the sense of legacy he was. Give Jordan a team that can compete and they will take it all. You can't say the same about lebron, which is why that goat title belongs to Jordan only. That doesn't mean Jordan is better, but of all the top tier players he has that added factor which is what makes people say he the goat. If he won 4 of 6 rings, he'd still be in the discussion, but not how he is now, almost a consensus goat

valade16
03-30-2018, 03:21 PM
As far as him being goat, no those losses aren't that big a deal. The whole thing with Jordan is, soon as he got a capable team, he was perfect.technically he wasn't, but in the sense of legacy he was. Give Jordan a team that can compete and they will take it all. You can't say the same about lebron, which is why that goat title belongs to Jordan only. That doesn't mean Jordan is better, but of all the top tier players he has that added factor which is what makes people say he the goat. If he won 4 of 6 rings, he'd still be in the discussion, but not how he is now, almost a consensus goat

And when we talk about his "playoff failings" before winning the titles, what exactly do we mean?

Before he won 3 straight he took the Bulls to the ECF 2 times in a row and lost to the Champion Pistons. in 1990 he lost in 7 games to the Pistons in the ECF.

That game 7 MJ scored 31 of the Bulls 74 points. The Bulls minus MJ shot 23% in that game. Seriously, look at how bad everybody did:

Pippen 1/10 2 pts
Grant 3/17 10 pts
Hodges 3/13 8 pts
Cartwright 3/9 6 pts
Armstrong 1/8 2 pts


MJ's "playoff failures" are going to back to back ECFs... Even his failures are good lol

ewing
03-30-2018, 03:42 PM
And when we talk about his "playoff failings" before winning the titles, what exactly do we mean?

Before he won 3 straight he took the Bulls to the ECF 2 times in a row and lost to the Champion Pistons. in 1990 he lost in 7 games to the Pistons in the ECF.

That game 7 MJ scored 31 of the Bulls 74 points. The Bulls minus MJ shot 23% in that game. Seriously, look at how bad everybody did:

Pippen 1/10 2 pts
Grant 3/17 10 pts
Hodges 3/13 8 pts
Cartwright 3/9 6 pts
Armstrong 1/8 2 pts


MJ's "playoff failures" are going to back to back ECFs... Even his failures are good lol

Exactly everyone is capable of losing doesnít mean he wasnít always the best guy on the court. LeBron is the closest we have seen but itís still not as good bc he has had legit failings


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FlashBolt
03-31-2018, 05:40 AM
i'm taking lebron vs any of those series MJ played if you give LeBron Pippen / three years of Rodman. You guys can preach all the stats you want but MJ had the perfect roster built for him against teams he clearly should have beaten. Can't say the same vs these Warriors. Jordan with Matthew Delly as his running mate ain't beating the Warriors and I don't know why you guys think Jordan is 1000x better than KD or something. if we are talking scoring, KD is possibly more versatile than MJ. we all know they get smashed by last season's Warriors. There's two Finals he already loses. The rest is too difficult to judge because Jordan's rosters would be different than the one's built for LeBron. But LeBron+PIppen+Rodman? C'mon.. no one is stopping that in the 90's. Barkley ain't stoppin no LeBron. Karl Malone ain't no LeBron. why is this a debate? it isn't.

ewing
03-31-2018, 05:57 AM
Exactly everyone is capable of losing doesnít mean he wasnít always the best guy on the court. LeBron is the closest we have seen but itís still not as good bc he has had legit failings


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You are forgetting when he didn't get to the ECF but he averaged 45 and 36 against the Celtics in years 2 and 3 of his career.

ewing
03-31-2018, 05:59 AM
my quote from above addresses this



yes, LeBron is the first player ever to be on a great team built via FA. My question is, who the **** cares?

I do.

Heediot
03-31-2018, 06:09 AM
i'm taking lebron vs any of those series MJ played if you give LeBron Pippen / three years of Rodman. You guys can preach all the stats you want but MJ had the perfect roster built for him against teams he clearly should have beaten. Can't say the same vs these Warriors. Jordan with Matthew Delly as his running mate ain't beating the Warriors and I don't know why you guys think Jordan is 1000x better than KD or something. if we are talking scoring, KD is possibly more versatile than MJ. we all know they get smashed by last season's Warriors. There's two Finals he already loses. The rest is too difficult to judge because Jordan's rosters would be different than the one's built for LeBron. But LeBron+PIppen+Rodman? C'mon.. no one is stopping that in the 90's. Barkley ain't stoppin no LeBron. Karl Malone ain't no LeBron. why is this a debate? it isn't.

With LeBron now it can work. But LeBron with a weaker shot is harder. Jordan can play good on and off the ball, so that's why he let Pippen handle the rock a lot. LeBron wasn't as good off the ball, now I think he is more capable off the ball with a much improved shot. He is still ball dominant, but like cp3 I think he's too smart and has a good enough shot to adapt at this point.

For me it's not really about rings it's about who i think is better personally.

Athleticims = Wash, both guys are super elite
off court work ethic = wash, both guys are super elite
basketball iq and feel = wash, both guys are super elite

Bron is the better passer and get his team mates involved more.
Jordan plays better off the ball.

Bron evolved into a better 3 point shooter. Jordan the better mid range shooter. I think Jordan would be just as good or a better 3 point shooter if he grew up in this era. More smoother stroke imo.

Jordan can use the whole floor better, get to his spots more with ease. Better post game with the fade away jumper and also has the spin move with his agile hips.

Both guys are plus players on the floor through out the game when they are on the court. I don;t know who builds bigger leads for their teams but It might be James not too sure.

I think what separates them is in big moments and in the 4th quarter. No one strikes more fear into an opponent like Jordan. If you know he has the ball when the game or series is on the line, you are shook. He has that psychological edge. As good as Bron is, in the finals moments you'd be more scared if kyrie had the ball, or even Kobe and Melo. Not saying they are better players, but they bring a fear element. Jordan can handle double teams and make difficult looks in the clutch and he can create a better look for himself and or his teammates IMO. Bron is good at drawing an opponent though, but he's not there with the shot creation, and his lack ofnice first step foot speed and east west game limits his effectiveness there. Jordan also legendary for his fire and competitiveness, but I think that's a bit over-rated. Who knows how intense someone is inside, pretty sure Duncan and Kawhi are intense too.

That's just final thoughts on why I like Jordan better as a player vs. James. Stats and rings are nice to debate, but this is what I go with. I can see the argument for LeBron, so I can see where the other side is coming from. I think I'm done for good with the MJ debate, going to aim for more constructiveness with my time. It's easy to get sucked in, especially a big Jordan homer like me.

ewing
03-31-2018, 09:57 AM
With LeBron now it can work. But LeBron with a weaker shot is harder. Jordan can play good on and off the ball, so that's why he let Pippen handle the rock a lot. LeBron wasn't as good off the ball, now I think he is more capable off the ball with a much improved shot. He is still ball dominant, but like cp3 I think he's too smart and has a good enough shot to adapt at this point.

For me it's not really about rings it's about who i think is better personally.

Athleticims = Wash, both guys are super elite
off court work ethic = wash, both guys are super elite
basketball iq and feel = wash, both guys are super elite

Bron is the better passer and get his team mates involved more.
Jordan plays better off the ball.

Bron evolved into a better 3 point shooter. Jordan the better mid range shooter. I think Jordan would be just as good or a better 3 point shooter if he grew up in this era. More smoother stroke imo.

Jordan can use the whole floor better, get to his spots more with ease. Better post game with the fade away jumper and also has the spin move with his agile hips.

Both guys are plus players on the floor through out the game when they are on the court. I don;t know who builds bigger leads for their teams but It might be James not too sure.

I think what separates them is in big moments and in the 4th quarter. No one strikes more fear into an opponent like Jordan. If you know he has the ball when the game or series is on the line, you are shook. He has that psychological edge. As good as Bron is, in the finals moments you'd be more scared if kyrie had the ball, or even Kobe and Melo. Not saying they are better players, but they bring a fear element. Jordan can handle double teams and make difficult looks in the clutch and he can create a better look for himself and or his teammates IMO. Bron is good at drawing an opponent though, but he's not there with the shot creation, and his lack ofnice first step foot speed and east west game limits his effectiveness there. Jordan also legendary for his fire and competitiveness, but I think that's a bit over-rated. Who knows how intense someone is inside, pretty sure Duncan and Kawhi are intense too.

That's just final thoughts on why I like Jordan better as a player vs. James. Stats and rings are nice to debate, but this is what I go with. I can see the argument for LeBron, so I can see where the other side is coming from. I think I'm done for good with the MJ debate, going to aim for more constructiveness with my time. It's easy to get sucked in, especially a big Jordan homer like me.

Yeah I donít think young Bron and Pip fit at all on offense. Sounds like a Larry Hughes situation (not that Hughes was as good as Pip).


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valade16
03-31-2018, 11:14 AM
i'm taking lebron vs any of those series MJ played if you give LeBron Pippen / three years of Rodman. You guys can preach all the stats you want but MJ had the perfect roster built for him against teams he clearly should have beaten. Can't say the same vs these Warriors. Jordan with Matthew Delly as his running mate ain't beating the Warriors and I don't know why you guys think Jordan is 1000x better than KD or something. if we are talking scoring, KD is possibly more versatile than MJ. we all know they get smashed by last season's Warriors. There's two Finals he already loses. The rest is too difficult to judge because Jordan's rosters would be different than the one's built for LeBron. But LeBron+PIppen+Rodman? C'mon.. no one is stopping that in the 90's. Barkley ain't stoppin no LeBron. Karl Malone ain't no LeBron. why is this a debate? it isn't.

Ok but in that same vein, Iím taking MJ, Wade, Bosh vs the Mavs in 2011. MJ never loses that series, and certainly wouldnít have shown a complete lack of fire and aggressiveness that Bron showed.

Heediot
03-31-2018, 11:20 AM
Ok but in that same vein, Iím taking MJ, Wade, Bosh vs the Mavs in 2011. MJ never loses that series, and certainly wouldnít have shown a complete lack of fire and aggressiveness that Bron showed.

MJ, Kyrie and Love isn't shabby either. I can see chemistry between the three offensively. Maybe even go double post/triangle at times with MJ and Love. Defense still iffy with those two though. Winning in 16 is still possible with MJ and those two IMO. Jordan might complement Kyrie better then James off the ball tbh. They lose size, but with MJ against GS death lineup, I think there are advantages too. Love can make up for James rebounding by playing down low more instead of waiting for a pass behind the arc. Love was an elite rebounder in Minny. TT is nasty on the offensive glass two. I think those two can make up what James does on the glass even with JR staring next to MJ on the wing.

nastynice
03-31-2018, 01:51 PM
i'm taking lebron vs any of those series MJ played if you give LeBron Pippen / three years of Rodman. You guys can preach all the stats you want but MJ had the perfect roster built for him against teams he clearly should have beaten. Can't say the same vs these Warriors. Jordan with Matthew Delly as his running mate ain't beating the Warriors and I don't know why you guys think Jordan is 1000x better than KD or something. if we are talking scoring, KD is possibly more versatile than MJ. we all know they get smashed by last season's Warriors. There's two Finals he already loses. The rest is too difficult to judge because Jordan's rosters would be different than the one's built for LeBron. But LeBron+PIppen+Rodman? C'mon.. no one is stopping that in the 90's. Barkley ain't stoppin no LeBron. Karl Malone ain't no LeBron. why is this a debate? it isn't.

Jordans bulls were probably on par with these warriors. I don't know how you are so sure they wouldn't win

That 90's bulls team was so dominant because they had a closer. Put LeBron on that team and they are not close to being the same beast. Jordan was a scorer, and that's what that team needed, that's why they are one of the best ever. Switching that scorer out with a playmaker doesn't help them

FlashBolt
03-31-2018, 10:16 PM
Ok but in that same vein, Iím taking MJ, Wade, Bosh vs the Mavs in 2011. MJ never loses that series, and certainly wouldnít have shown a complete lack of fire and aggressiveness that Bron showed.

Exactly. But that one series is one series. This guy will likely play 50 NBA playoff series by the end of his career. We gotta stop nitpicking ****. Both players can play. Why must these be debated? No one will be right - ever. It's no fun debating these things anymore.

ODB13
03-31-2018, 11:18 PM
The Heat vs Spurs Game 6 was on tonight. That's the Ray Allen 3 to force OT. Which Bron hates love to use that game as being saved by that shot by Allen.

And they forget that Bron completely and totally dominated both ends of that game, especially the 4th quarter where he scored 16 against the Spurs total of 20 in that quarter and they were down 10 entering the 4th.

Nobody has the ability to take over a game like Bron does. Jordan didn't do it like this. Jordan had the ability to put a nail in your coffin and could create his own shot athletically at a crazy rate. Bron does it all, in very different ways, in a much greater vertical and team environment....the type where one guy can't really do it all, and he still does.

How many "Bron" posters do you have to kiss before you can lie down and go to bed at night?

nastynice
03-31-2018, 11:52 PM
How many "Bron" posters do you have to kiss before you can lie down and go to bed at night?

I actually read this post and caught this game that night. LeBron definitely played like hot garbage that whole ot. Bosh n them boys were getting buckets tho

Jeffy25
04-01-2018, 12:48 AM
How many "Bron" posters do you have to kiss before you can lie down and go to bed at night?

What's funny is that I don't like him that much. But the hate he gets is pretty unbelievable. He's clearly the greatest basketball player of this generation by a mile. It's easy to appreciate.


I actually read this post and caught this game that night. LeBron definitely played like hot garbage that whole ot. Bosh n them boys were getting buckets tho

Hot garbage?

He went 1 for 3 with two boards and two assists.

He had a turnover (after he got a steal) and two misses, grabbed two hard rebounds and had that steal against Manu with 45 seconds left. Allen made the two icing free throws and a layup on an assist from LeBron. The only other field goal was also on a layup, this time by Bosh, on a great pass from LeBron lol (he was also fouled but missed the free throw).

You can actually watch the ot footage here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TxrkVc2W8

ODB13
04-01-2018, 12:59 AM
What's funny is that I don't like him that much. But the hate he gets is pretty unbelievable. He's clearly the greatest basketball player of this generation by a mile. It's easy to appreciate.



Hot garbage?

He went 1 for 3 with two boards and two assists.

He had a turnover (after he got a steal) and two misses, grabbed two hard rebounds and had that steal against Manu with 45 seconds left. Allen made the two icing free throws and a layup on an assist from LeBron. The only other field goal was also on a layup, this time by Bosh, on a great pass from LeBron lol (he was also fouled but missed the free throw).

You can actually watch the ot footage here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TxrkVc2W8

"Bron Bron" is indeed THIS generation's best.

FlashBolt
04-01-2018, 02:45 AM
What's funny is that I don't like him that much. But the hate he gets is pretty unbelievable. He's clearly the greatest basketball player of this generation by a mile. It's easy to appreciate.



Hot garbage?

He went 1 for 3 with two boards and two assists.

He had a turnover (after he got a steal) and two misses, grabbed two hard rebounds and had that steal against Manu with 45 seconds left. Allen made the two icing free throws and a layup on an assist from LeBron. The only other field goal was also on a layup, this time by Bosh, on a great pass from LeBron lol (he was also fouled but missed the free throw).

You can actually watch the ot footage here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TxrkVc2W8

Dude, put him on ignore. He's the worst here by far in that he doesn't even try to troll but he's just so terrible at using his brain that it's trolling. The guy just started watching basketball or something because most of what he says is a flat-out lie and then he just pretends he knows what he's talking about. clear example, that game 6 OT, he said Lebron played like garbage that whole OT and Bosh was getting buckets. Bosh had one basket, missed a FT, and grabbed zero rebounds/assists. But "Bosh got buckets" and "LeBron played like hot garbage." He's a total waste of your time. I kept quoting him until I realized, what's the point. The guy is too clueless to know what's going on. all he does is catch Instagram highlights of Warriors games and pretends he's an expert.

nastynice
04-01-2018, 12:00 PM
What's funny is that I don't like him that much. But the hate he gets is pretty unbelievable. He's clearly the greatest basketball player of this generation by a mile. It's easy to appreciate.



Hot garbage?

He went 1 for 3 with two boards and two assists.

He had a turnover (after he got a steal) and two misses, grabbed two hard rebounds and had that steal against Manu with 45 seconds left. Allen made the two icing free throws and a layup on an assist from LeBron. The only other field goal was also on a layup, this time by Bosh, on a great pass from LeBron lol (he was also fouled but missed the free throw).

You can actually watch the ot footage here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TxrkVc2W8

Dude was missing buckets and trying to find someone to score. He no closer bro.

Itís ok for someone to have a bad quarter bro, itís not that serious, lol

nastynice
04-01-2018, 12:02 PM
Dude, put him on ignore. He's the worst here by far in that he doesn't even try to troll but he's just so terrible at using his brain that it's trolling. The guy just started watching basketball or something because most of what he says is a flat-out lie and then he just pretends he knows what he's talking about. clear example, that game 6 OT, he said Lebron played like garbage that whole OT and Bosh was getting buckets. Bosh had one basket, missed a FT, and grabbed zero rebounds/assists. But "Bosh got buckets" and "LeBron played like hot garbage." He's a total waste of your time. I kept quoting him until I realized, what's the point. The guy is too clueless to know what's going on. all he does is catch Instagram highlights of Warriors games and pretends he's an expert.

You do too, right warriors fan? lmaooo

nastynice
04-01-2018, 12:04 PM
You can actually watch the ot footage here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76TxrkVc2W8

Thanks for strengthening my argument with that video btw ;)

valade16
04-01-2018, 12:06 PM
Exactly. But that one series is one series. This guy will likely play 50 NBA playoff series by the end of his career. We gotta stop nitpicking ****. Both players can play. Why must these be debated? No one will be right - ever. It's no fun debating these things anymore.

I agree, it's one series. But we are comparing him and saying he's as good as the GOAT MJ. When has MJ ever had a series as bad as Bron's in that 2011 Finals? Not like just in the Finals, but did MJ ever have a series that bad?

ODB13
04-01-2018, 12:34 PM
I agree, it's one series. But we are comparing him and saying he's as good as the GOAT MJ. When has MJ ever had a series as bad as Bron's in that 2011 Finals? Not like just in the Finals, but did MJ ever have a series that bad?

It wasn't the performance alone. Not the output or the numbers. It was seeing an all-time great GIVE UP on court in the middle of a Finals series because it wasnt going exactly his way. The loafing around the court, the "look out how wronged I've been" act... It was truly unprecedented. I'm glad he's grown up since then. But you can't erase it, no matter what happens in the future. It was THAT egregious. He's pretty much locked up #2 all time, and that's nothing to sneeze at. This episode prevents him from securing the top spot, sadly.

effen5
04-01-2018, 12:49 PM
I have, particularly when someone tries to use it as a knock on Jordan's resume. "Magic/Larry are all-time greats, and Jordan couldn't topple them until they got old"

Then comes the discussion about how Jordan's Bulls in the 80's didn't have anyone.

84-85
40 Dave Corzine C 6-11 250 April 25, 1956 us 6 DePaul University
44 Quintin Dailey SG 6-3 180 January 22, 1961 us 2 University of San Francisco
34 Chris Engler C 6-11 245 March 1, 1959 us 2 University of Minnesota, University of Wyoming
21 Sidney Green PF 6-9 220 January 4, 1961 us 1 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
10 Dave Greenwood PF 6-9 222 May 27, 1957 us 5 University of California, Los Angeles
22 Rod Higgins SF 6-7 200 January 31, 1960 us 2 California State University, Fresno
32 Steve Johnson C 6-10 235 November 3, 1957 us 3 Oregon State University
39 Caldwell Jones C 6-11 217 August 4, 1950 us 11 Albany State University
13 Charles Jones PF 6-9 215 April 3, 1957 us 1 Albany State University
23 Michael Jordan SG 6-6 195 February 17, 1963 us R University of North Carolina
1 Wes Matthews PG 6-1 170 August 24, 1959 us 4 University of Wisconsin
33 Jawann Oldham C 7-0 215 July 4, 1957 us 4 Seattle University
3 Ennis Whatley PG 6-3 177 August 11, 1962 us 1 University of Alabama
0 Orlando Woolridge SF 6-9 215 December 16, 1959

85-86
20 Gene Banks SF 6-7 215 May 15, 1959 us 4 Duke University
10 Ron Brewer SG 6-4 180 September 16, 1955 us 7 University of Arkansas
35 Tony Brown SG 6-6 185 July 29, 1960 us 1 University of Arkansas
40 Dave Corzine C 6-11 250 April 25, 1956 us 7 DePaul University
44 Quintin Dailey SG 6-3 180 January 22, 1961 us 3 University of San Francisco
8 George Gervin SG 6-7 180 April 27, 1952 us 13 Eastern Michigan University
21 Sidney Green PF 6-9 220 January 4, 1961 us 2 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
22 Rod Higgins SF 6-7 200 January 31, 1960 us 3 California State University, Fresno
10-32 Mike Holton PG 6-4 185 August 4, 1961 us 1 University of California, Los Angeles
23 Michael Jordan SG 6-6 195 February 17, 1963 us 1 University of North Carolina
24 Kyle Macy PG 6-3 175 April 9, 1957 us 5 Purdue University, University of Kentucky
7 Billy McKinney PG 6-0 160 June 5, 1955 us 6 Northwestern University
34 Charles Oakley PF 6-8 225 December 18, 1963 us R Virginia Union University
33 Jawann Oldham C 7-0 215 July 4, 1957 us 5 Seattle University
5 John Paxson PG 6-2 185 September 29, 1960 us 2 University of Notre Dame
52 Mike Smrek C 7-0 250 August 31, 1962 ca R Canisius College
0 Orlando Woolridge SF 6-9 215 December 16, 1959 us 4 University

86-87
20 Gene Banks SF 6-7 215 May 15, 1959 us 5 Duke University
17 Mike Brown C 6-9 257 July 19, 1963 us R George Washington University
11 Fred Cofield PG 6-3 190 January 4, 1962 us 1 University of Oregon, Eastern Michigan University
22 Steve Colter PG 6-3 165 July 24, 1962 us 2 New Mexico State University
40 Dave Corzine C 6-11 250 April 25, 1956 us 8 DePaul University
25 Earl Cureton C 6-9 210 September 3, 1957 us 6 Robert Morris University (PA), University of Detroit Mercy
30 Darren Daye SF 6-8 220 November 30, 1960 us 3 University of California, Los Angeles
23 Michael Jordan SG 6-6 195 February 17, 1963 us 2 University of North Carolina
10 Pete Myers SG 6-6 180 September 15, 1963 us R University of Arkansas at Little Rock
34 Charles Oakley PF 6-8 225 December 18, 1963 us 1 Virginia Union University
5 John Paxson PG 6-2 185 September 29, 1960 us 3 University of Notre Dame
50 Ben Poquette PF 6-9 235 May 7, 1955 us 9 Central Michigan University
6 Brad Sellers PF 7-0 210 December 17, 1962 us R University of Wisconsin, Ohio State University
3 Sedale Threatt PG 6-2 175 September 10, 1961 us 3 West Virginia University Institute of Technology
21 Elston Turner SF 6-5 190 June 10, 1959 us 5 University of Mississippi
31 Granville Waiters C 6-11 225 January 8, 1961 us 3 Ohio State University
12-24 Perry Young SG 6-5 210 August 4, 1963 us R Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University

87-88
17 Mike Brown C 6-9 257 July 19, 1963 us 1 George Washington University
40 Dave Corzine C 6-11 250 April 25, 1956 us 9 DePaul University
53 Artis Gilmore C 7-2 240 September 21, 1949 us 16 Gardner-Webb University, Jacksonville University
54 Horace Grant PF 6-10 215 July 4, 1965 us R Clemson University
23 Michael Jordan SG 6-6 195 February 17, 1963 us 3 University of North Carolina
34 Charles Oakley PF 6-8 225 December 18, 1963 us 2 Virginia Union University
5 John Paxson PG 6-2 185 September 29, 1960 us 4 University of Notre Dame
33 Scottie Pippen SF 6-8 210 September 25, 1965 us R University of Central Arkansas
6 Brad Sellers SF 7-0 210 December 17, 1962 us 1 University of Wisconsin, Ohio State University
2 Rory Sparrow PG 6-2 175 June 12, 1958 us 7 Villanova University
3 Sedale Threatt PG 6-2 175 September 10, 1961 us 4 West Virginia University Institute of Technology
21 Elston Turner SF 6-5 190 June 10, 1959 us 6 University of Mississippi
11 Sam Vincent PG 6-2 185 May 18, 1963 us 2 Michigan State University
31 Granville Waiters C 6-11 225 January 8, 1961 us 4 Ohio State University
11 Tony White PG 6-2 170 February 15, 1965 us R University of Tennessee

It's because Jordan's teams in the 80s was much worse than Lebron's teams in the 00s.

IKnowHoops
04-01-2018, 01:02 PM
But I don't think his peak carried longer than MJ's

Kareem's peak was probably 69-81 (12 seasons)
Then probably 90% of that good for 5 seasons
Then 75% of his peak for 3 seasons

Michael was in his peak probably 13 of his 15 seasons (with two of those years partially missed because of the injury and the in-season come back)
And 2 seasons where he was 75% of his former self

LeBron's rookie year, he wasn't into his peak like Kareem and Jordan were. But by year two, he clearly was, and he is still at that level. That's 14 seasons of peak play already, which is a longer peak already than Kareem and Jordan, and he is putting up numbers at their levels.

I'd say Kobe's peak was 00-13, 13 seasons. First four years were development, and last 3 were hurt and a shell of his former self.

Has anyone else demonstrated a 14 year peak in the NBA? A peak that rivals at all time great levels?

Shaq had like 8 years of peak play, Malone had like 12 or so.

How many peak seasons can a guy put up, that are already elite playing levels all time as individual seasons, before he just surpasses Jordan universally?

If Bron gives the NBA another 3 seasons at his last 14 levels, how can he not be the GOAT?

Exactly

IKnowHoops
04-01-2018, 01:06 PM
Exactly everyone is capable of losing doesnít mean he wasnít always the best guy on the court. LeBron is the closest we have seen but itís still not as good bc he has had legit failings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your reasoning is legit failings

IKnowHoops
04-01-2018, 01:15 PM
With LeBron now it can work. But LeBron with a weaker shot is harder. Jordan can play good on and off the ball, so that's why he let Pippen handle the rock a lot. LeBron wasn't as good off the ball, now I think he is more capable off the ball with a much improved shot. He is still ball dominant, but like cp3 I think he's too smart and has a good enough shot to adapt at this point.

For me it's not really about rings it's about who i think is better personally.

Athleticims = Wash, both guys are super elite
off court work ethic = wash, both guys are super elite
basketball iq and feel = wash, both guys are super elite

Bron is the better passer and get his team mates involved more.
Jordan plays better off the ball.

Bron evolved into a better 3 point shooter. Jordan the better mid range shooter. I think Jordan would be just as good or a better 3 point shooter if he grew up in this era. More smoother stroke imo.

Jordan can use the whole floor better, get to his spots more with ease. Better post game with the fade away jumper and also has the spin move with his agile hips.

Both guys are plus players on the floor through out the game when they are on the court. I don;t know who builds bigger leads for their teams but It might be James not too sure.

I think what separates them is in big moments and in the 4th quarter. No one strikes more fear into an opponent like Jordan. If you know he has the ball when the game or series is on the line, you are shook. He has that psychological edge. As good as Bron is, in the finals moments you'd be more scared if kyrie had the ball, or even Kobe and Melo. Not saying they are better players, but they bring a fear element. Jordan can handle double teams and make difficult looks in the clutch and he can create a better look for himself and or his teammates IMO. Bron is good at drawing an opponent though, but he's not there with the shot creation, and his lack ofnice first step foot speed and east west game limits his effectiveness there. Jordan also legendary for his fire and competitiveness, but I think that's a bit over-rated. Who knows how intense someone is inside, pretty sure Duncan and Kawhi are intense too.

That's just final thoughts on why I like Jordan better as a player vs. James. Stats and rings are nice to debate, but this is what I go with. I can see the argument for LeBron, so I can see where the other side is coming from. I think I'm done for good with the MJ debate, going to aim for more constructiveness with my time. It's easy to get sucked in, especially a big Jordan homer like me.

😂 I think Bron is the top 4th quarter scorer in the league. Yo! If an when you decide to step into the present and take into consideration this current form of Lebron, instead of thinking of him when his J and 3 werenít butter. Because I know when you speak of Mike, you speak of him with all parts of his game running at prime levels.

Anyway, at no point in Jordanís career was he more athletic with a better shot than Lebron right now. Iíll take Bron right now, as a scorer over anyone in history. Heís completely unstoppable now. The size, the speed, the power, the shot, the IQ...I mean what is his weakness TODAY...stamina?

IKnowHoops
04-01-2018, 01:18 PM
Dude was missing buckets and trying to find someone to score. He no closer bro.

Itís ok for someone to have a bad quarter bro, itís not that serious, lol

Then why mention it?

effen5
04-01-2018, 01:59 PM
😂 I think Bron is the top 4th quarter scorer in the league. Yo! If an when you decide to step into the present and take into consideration this current form of Lebron, instead of thinking of him when his J and 3 werenít butter. Because I know when you speak of Mike, you speak of him with all parts of his game running at prime levels.

Anyway, at no point in Jordanís career was he more athletic with a better shot than Lebron right now. Iíll take Bron right now, as a scorer over anyone in history. Heís completely unstoppable now. The size, the speed, the power, the shot, the IQ...I mean what is his weakness TODAY...stamina?

Better shot? Okay, so Lebron is shooting 54% in the league right now, ****ing amazing.

Let's look deeper into the numbers. He's shot a total of 1471 shots this year thus far. 606 of them are within 3 feet (dunk, layup etc...) he's shooting 77% within 3 feet. Now outside of 3 feet, he's shot 321/841 which is about 38%

Let's look into Jordan's last year as a Wizard. He shot 45% at 1527 shots. Outside of 3 ft, He shot 550/1317 at about 42%.

You can't tell me Bron is a better shooter RIGHT NOW than Jordan was in his injured riddled final year just because Lebron's had a lot more layups/dunks to outweigh his actually shooting percentage. And no, he's not a better scorer than anyone in history, let alone a better scorer than MJ from 86-98. Jordan's averaged less than what LBJ is scoring only 3 times in his career, his injured year in 85/86, and the 2 years as a Wizard.

effen5
04-01-2018, 02:07 PM
And I looked up my numbers again, and it's even more skewed... lbj had 651 dunks/layups so far meaning he's had layups or dunks outside of 3 ft. So my numbers for him are generous.

Jeffy25
04-01-2018, 02:49 PM
And I looked up my numbers again, and it's even more skewed... lbj had 651 dunks/layups so far meaning he's had layups or dunks outside of 3 ft. So my numbers for him are generous.

It takes talent and his size for him to get there.

You don't get extra credit for taking harder shots. IKH was talking about scoring, not shooting (though he did state shot).

This season -

Bron is .365 on 3's
16-3 range - .378
10-16 - .423

We don't have the shot chart data on basketball reference for Jodan, but we do know he never shot 3's that well except for a single season (95-96) and never tried to in high volume.

I imagine Jordan was probably in the lower 400's from 16-3's though. Bron can get to the rim easier than Jordan could because of his size and the way defense has to play today. Jordan just had that explosive first step that allowed him to get by you, and then he could shove you with his off-hand. Bron just bullies past a weaker defender without issue and goes up to the basket.

Jeffy25
04-01-2018, 02:54 PM
An additional thing to mention.

During Jordan's career, 6 new franchises were added (Pelicans don't really count, but they would make 7).

Whenever a pro sport expands, it really waters down the talent in the sport. Guys who wouldn't be in the league at all are now on the benches, and bench players are now starters.

When baseball did it, we saw the massive explosion of home runs. Drugs of course helped too, but people neglect that guys like Barry Bonds got to feast off of AAA caliber pitching and got to hit 38 games a year in two of the most hitter friendly parks....while he was on these drugs.

Whenever there is a league expansion, the elites in the league look insanely good in comparison. It's happened in every sport. That's when records get broken. Great players look even better.

Jeffy25
04-01-2018, 02:55 PM
Dude was missing buckets and trying to find someone to score. He no closer bro.

Itís ok for someone to have a bad quarter bro, itís not that serious, lol

I just don't think that OT was hot garbage. He missed two shots, made another, and had two nice assists and two boards in a condensed quarter.

His 4th quarter was completely epic though, and his first three completely pedestrian.

nastynice
04-01-2018, 03:20 PM
Then why mention it?

Oh I had meant to respond to that post that night but forgot. Saw someone quote it and it reminded me, as people were saying Jordanís career was romanticized, well apparently same is happening with lebron

nastynice
04-01-2018, 03:25 PM
I just don't think that OT was hot garbage. He missed two shots, made another, and had two nice assists and two boards in a condensed quarter.

His 4th quarter was completely epic though, and his first three completely pedestrian.

Well, in the context of goat it was hot garbage. Iím strictly talking ot here, without lebron thereís no ot to begin with..

nastynice
04-01-2018, 03:30 PM
And no, he's not a better scorer than anyone in history, let alone a better scorer than MJ from 86-98. .

Forget history, harden and Durant today are on a completely diff level than lebron as a scorer. Lebron is still an extremely good scorer, he knows how to use his body to get high percentage shots, especially that Adrian Peterson stiff arm haha, and he got that long range shot down, but Durant and harden are just completely next level. Iím sure thereís more better pure scorers still, Lillard etc

ewing
04-01-2018, 03:45 PM
Your reasoning is legit failings

Youíre the failure!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ewing
04-01-2018, 03:53 PM
It takes talent and his size for him to get there.

You don't get extra credit for taking harder shots. IKH was talking about scoring, not shooting (though he did state shot).

This season -

Bron is .365 on 3's
16-3 range - .378
10-16 - .423

We don't have the shot chart data on basketball reference for Jodan, but we do know he never shot 3's that well except for a single season (95-96) and never tried to in high volume.

I imagine Jordan was probably in the lower 400's from 16-3's though. Bron can get to the rim easier than Jordan could because of his size and the way defense has to play today. Jordan just had that explosive first step that allowed him to get by you, and then he could shove you with his off-hand. Bron just bullies past a weaker defender without issue and goes up to the basket.

Are you really going act like Micheal is the one that pushed off on every drive? He got away with one against the Jazz but it wasnít his go to move like Bron


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Heediot
04-01-2018, 04:24 PM
Forget history, harden and Durant today are on a completely diff level than lebron as a scorer. Lebron is still an extremely good scorer, he knows how to use his body to get high percentage shots, especially that Adrian Peterson stiff arm haha, and he got that long range shot down, but Durant and harden are just completely next level. Iím sure thereís more better pure scorers still, Lillard etc

I think what separates MJ from most great scorers is in the post season, is when people get up in your grill more. His first step and quickness is so good, his ability to get away or separate himself from the defender is uncanny. Combine that with his all time vertical and he can get his looks and to his spots like no other wing. As good as KD and Harden are, they can be slowed down and tamed to a degree which is why you see the efficiency drop in the post season (KD before GS). I think KD uses the hand check to his advantage well in the regular season and just needs a small area to get his shot off, but when the spacing gets tighter his games is exposed to a degree, just my view. On GS, the attention the big 3-4 command makes defending the unit as a whole mind numbing hard, everyone benefits. Even Klay, dude just needs to his hit shots in the post season better then last year.

nastynice
04-01-2018, 04:57 PM
I think what separates MJ from most great scorers is in the post season, is when people get up in your grill more. His first step and quickness is so good, his ability to get away or separate himself from the defender is uncanny. Combine that with his all time vertical and he can get his looks and to his spots like no other wing. As good as KD and Harden are, they can be slowed down and tamed to a degree which is why you see the efficiency drop in the post season (KD before GS). I think KD uses the hand check to his advantage well in the regular season and just needs a small area to get his shot off, but when the spacing gets tighter his games is exposed to a degree, just my view. On GS, the attention the big 3-4 command makes defending the unit as a whole mind numbing hard, everyone benefits. Even Klay, dude just needs to his hit shots in the post season better then last year.

Yea, Jordanís hang time was unreal. I think people tend to forget that, how he could take contact at the height of his jump and still pull off a full shot entirely while on the way down

To me the thing that stuck out most about Jordan, he was very Brady like, in all the big moments heíd pull it off. 6 year sweep, untouchable. He would be the focus of the bulls offense and also of the opposing teamís defense, and over and over heíd get the w

ODB13
04-01-2018, 05:44 PM
It takes talent and his size for him to get there.

You don't get extra credit for taking harder shots. IKH was talking about scoring, not shooting (though he did state shot).

This season -

Bron is .365 on 3's
16-3 range - .378
10-16 - .423

We don't have the shot chart data on basketball reference for Jodan, but we do know he never shot 3's that well except for a single season (95-96) and never tried to in high volume.

I imagine Jordan was probably in the lower 400's from 16-3's though. Bron can get to the rim easier than Jordan could because of his size and the way defense has to play today. Jordan just had that explosive first step that allowed him to get by you, and then he could shove you with his off-hand. Bron just bullies past a weaker defender without issue and goes up to the basket.

For real, do people actually call him "Bron"? I always hear his name said full. Is this just your pet name for him?

Heediot
04-01-2018, 05:56 PM
Yea, Jordanís hang time was unreal. I think people tend to forget that, how he could take contact at the height of his jump and still pull off a full shot entirely while on the way down

To me the thing that stuck out most about Jordan, he was very Brady like, in all the big moments heíd pull it off. 6 year sweep, untouchable. He would be the focus of the bulls offense and also of the opposing teamís defense, and over and over heíd get the w

Yeah I feel you.

The one thing I want to see is how Jordan adapts to the zone rules of today. I think he`d be fine, but it`ll be interesting to see how he attacks or plays around the hard hedges-doubles.

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2018, 07:27 PM
Forget history, harden and Durant today are on a completely diff level than lebron as a scorer. Lebron is still an extremely good scorer, he knows how to use his body to get high percentage shots, especially that Adrian Peterson stiff arm haha, and he got that long range shot down, but Durant and harden are just completely next level. Iím sure thereís more better pure scorers still, Lillard etc

Are you talking about pure arsenal of offensive/signature moves? early Lebron could shoot but was so much more energetic/chase down block style that he could rely on his supreme physical ability for most part and mix in a jumper here and there, pretty similar to now/today but its way more obvious he is not in chase down block mode and to more coasting and turning it up for nice portions of the season, and another thing is as of right now Harden and Lebron would be tied for scoring titles and KD has I think 4 if my memory again serves me correct KD/Bron have to be either tied for 3rd all time scoring ppg or 3rd and 4th but I am not sure who has the edge, If I had to guess I would go with Bron, I think they are followed by West/Baylor/AI or something similar, so I don't get how you can say they are on a diff. level when just pure ppg and all time scoring say different

Lebron is more of a bully ball scorer in the mold of a Shaq/Malone or Shaq/AI mix, I tend to lean toward the latter

Lillard and guys are more perimeter/3pt scorers, Lebron is a bully ball scorer who mixes in a 3pt and jumpers throughout the game, but his bread and butter is locomotive to the hole which should be his bread and butter given his natural physical ability

Lebron is all time top 5 ppg and that right there puts him up with any one outside that realm, especially those others you are speaking of besides KD, who is no doubt one of the best pure scorers ever, in any era

europagnpilgrim
04-01-2018, 07:32 PM
For real, do people actually call him "Bron"? I always hear his name said full. Is this just your pet name for him?

I say either or, didn't know it was that big of a deal, or even LBJ is said from time to time, no different than saying MJ(or do we mean Magic?) or Air Jordan or #23(or do we mean Bron?), AI is The Answer or Iverson or Bubbachuck, its just names, For Real

no pet names/peeves involved

nastynice
04-01-2018, 07:46 PM
Are you talking about pure arsenal of offensive/signature moves? early Lebron could shoot but was so much more energetic/chase down block style that he could rely on his supreme physical ability for most part and mix in a jumper here and there, pretty similar to now/today but its way more obvious he is not in chase down block mode and to more coasting and turning it up for nice portions of the season, and another thing is as of right now Harden and Lebron would be tied for scoring titles and KD has I think 4 if my memory again serves me correct KD/Bron have to be either tied for 3rd all time scoring ppg or 3rd and 4th but I am not sure who has the edge, If I had to guess I would go with Bron, I think they are followed by West/Baylor/AI or something similar, so I don't get how you can say they are on a diff. level when just pure ppg and all time scoring say different

Lebron is more of a bully ball scorer in the mold of a Shaq/Malone or Shaq/AI mix, I tend to lean toward the latter

Lillard and guys are more perimeter/3pt scorers, Lebron is a bully ball scorer who mixes in a 3pt and jumpers throughout the game, but his bread and butter is locomotive to the hole which should be his bread and butter given his natural physical ability

Lebron is all time top 5 ppg and that right there puts him up with any one outside that realm, especially those others you are speaking of besides KD, who is no doubt one of the best pure scorers ever, in any era

Harden and kd can both get any shot they want. Outside of driving to the hoop and bulling thru people, I canít say the same about lebron. Put a hand in any of the first two guys face and smother them, and if they shoot it itís still usually a good shot. If lebron does, itís a bad shot. Those guys are flat out scorers. Lebron is more a floor general

The gap isnít big, but itís definitely there

valade16
04-01-2018, 08:30 PM
It takes talent and his size for him to get there.

You don't get extra credit for taking harder shots. IKH was talking about scoring, not shooting (though he did state shot).

This season -

Bron is .365 on 3's
16-3 range - .378
10-16 - .423

We don't have the shot chart data on basketball reference for Jodan, but we do know he never shot 3's that well except for a single season (95-96) and never tried to in high volume.

I imagine Jordan was probably in the lower 400's from 16-3's though. Bron can get to the rim easier than Jordan could because of his size and the way defense has to play today. Jordan just had that explosive first step that allowed him to get by you, and then he could shove you with his off-hand. Bron just bullies past a weaker defender without issue and goes up to the basket.

Well he shot 3ís better in the playoffs. In fact, from 86-93 MJ shot 36% from 3. For reference Bron has shot 33% in the playoffs in his career, 35% in Miami and 32.5% since returning to Coeveland.

MJ was a better 3pt shooter in the playoffs than LeBron.

FlashBolt
04-01-2018, 09:04 PM
I agree, it's one series. But we are comparing him and saying he's as good as the GOAT MJ. When has MJ ever had a series as bad as Bron's in that 2011 Finals? Not like just in the Finals, but did MJ ever have a series that bad?

Listen, I get it. That's what we do as crazy fans of a sport with thousands of the best basketball players ever. But when we break it down, are they still not basketball players? Take out the Mavs series or keep it, does it make LeBron any less of a TRUE basketball player? It doesn't. I'm just sick of reading these debates comparing them from decades in a completely different game where there are so much variables. Let's just use tiers. LeBron and Jordan are two of the greatest NBA player's ever and rank in tier 1. That's so much better than saying, "Well LeBron choked in the Mavs" and me replying back ten pages later, "Well, Bulls won two less games after Jordan retired and Pippen took the lead." I mean, who is right at the end of the day?

FlashBolt
04-01-2018, 09:07 PM
I agree, it's one series. But we are comparing him and saying he's as good as the GOAT MJ. When has MJ ever had a series as bad as Bron's in that 2011 Finals? Not like just in the Finals, but did MJ ever have a series that bad?

Btw, I also read your post regarding KAJ and Karl Malone also putting up crazy longevity seasons. Maybe it was you? Idk, pretty sure it was. Difference is KAJ wasn't playing the same role LeBron is. And neither was Malone. Malone wasn't handling the ball the way LeBron has to. He was certainly not carrying the load LeBron had to for 15 seasons. One guy just did more and that's what's amazing about LeBron's longevity - he does it all season after season.

FlashBolt
04-01-2018, 09:13 PM
Well he shot 3ís better in the playoffs. In fact, from 86-93 MJ shot 36% from 3. For reference Bron has shot 33% in the playoffs in his career, 35% in Miami and 32.5% since returning to Coeveland.

MJ was a better 3pt shooter in the playoffs than LeBron.

We have to take into account that three point shooting back then wasn't as high of a threat for a defender compared to now. The shot selection and three point shots back then were more selective so it would make sense for them to have a higher shooting % based on decreased volume and more selective (open) shots. Today, they would defend your three point shot more intelligently. And when you consider the volume of shots, LeBron is the better shooter.

I think the best example I can give you is this:

Rockets are 11th in 3P% this season. No one in the world would dare say they are the 11th best shooting team in the world. Their strategy is much different than any other team in that they're more concerned with shooting the threes than any other shot. Other teams may be more selective and only shoot the three when they are open.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 02:49 AM
Better shot? Okay, so Lebron is shooting 54% in the league right now, ****ing amazing.

Let's look deeper into the numbers. He's shot a total of 1471 shots this year thus far. 606 of them are within 3 feet (dunk, layup etc...) he's shooting 77% within 3 feet. Now outside of 3 feet, he's shot 321/841 which is about 38%

Let's look into Jordan's last year as a Wizard. He shot 45% at 1527 shots. Outside of 3 ft, He shot 550/1317 at about 42%.

You can't tell me Bron is a better shooter RIGHT NOW than Jordan was in his injured riddled final year just because Lebron's had a lot more layups/dunks to outweigh his actually shooting percentage. And no, he's not a better scorer than anyone in history, let alone a better scorer than MJ from 86-98. Jordan's averaged less than what LBJ is scoring only 3 times in his career, his injured year in 85/86, and the 2 years as a Wizard.

Thatís why I said shooter/athletic. The combination of both. Yeah I made a point, then you made a separate point.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 02:55 AM
Well, in the context of goat it was hot garbage. Iím strictly talking ot here, without lebron thereís no ot to begin with..

Itís just to bad you werenít around to see Jordan crying year after year (and I do mean literally crying) after being bounced by the Pistons. I doubt you were even cooking yet when Mike was failing. Thatís why itís pathetic when you point out these 3 min blips here and there to cement your Lebron non Goat arguments. You cant use that against mike because we canít watch full series of him year after year.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:01 AM
Forget history, harden and Durant today are on a completely diff level than lebron as a scorer. Lebron is still an extremely good scorer, he knows how to use his body to get high percentage shots, especially that Adrian Peterson stiff arm haha, and he got that long range shot down, but Durant and harden are just completely next level. Iím sure thereís more better pure scorers still, Lillard etc

Lololol, Harden will be shut down long before Bron will. As seen every year in the playoffs. We have seen Bron every year take scoring and his game to a level in the playoffs equivalent to Mike. All while rebounding and assisting st s higher level. Durant...again for me Lebron is harder to stop today. Durant and Harden May be more natural scorers, but Lebron, being the smarter player and supreme athlete is at this point better than both and impossible to stop. Those guys have way more weaknesses than Bron. They can be muscled. There is nothing you can do to Bron at this point.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:02 AM
For real, do people actually call him "Bron"? I always hear his name said full. Is this just your pet name for him?

Stop

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:07 AM
Harden and kd can both get any shot they want. Outside of driving to the hoop and bulling thru people, I canít say the same about lebron. Put a hand in any of the first two guys face and smother them, and if they shoot it itís still usually a good shot. If lebron does, itís a bad shot. Those guys are flat out scorers. Lebron is more a floor general

The gap isnít big, but itís definitely there

Just goes to show how your perception and the reality of the situation are different. Scoring and having every shot are not the same at all. Dirk has way more shots than a Jordan or Shaq, but heís not a better scorer than either and itís not close my young friend.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:15 AM
You guys know why Lebron is dunking so much despite his loss of athletic ability? Itís because his shot is so much deadlier now that guys have to play up on him. His first step always seemed slower then it was because guys played off him because his drive was so deadly and his shot was trash. Even with the loss of athletic ability, the pluses his shot have brought have actually made it easier for him to penetrate than ever. Both he and Jordan were able to take advantage of getting a wet shot and being so much farther ahead of everyone athletically that even by mid 30ís they were both still easily the best and still the most athletic. And still able to get better and improve by working on there games.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:18 AM
Youíre the failure!

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Did you drop the mic on that one?

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 03:21 AM
nastynice just became a basketball fan. He doesn't know what he is talking about. I would be surprised if he could name ten Warriors players before Curry came into the picture. Heck, he couldn't even name ten rcurrent players. This guy said he watched game 6 OT 2013 NBA Finals live. He said Chris Bosh was dropping buckets in OT. Chris Bosh had one made basket the entire OT and 12 points the ENTIRE game. Chris Bosh grabbed 0 rebounds and had 0 assists in that same OT. Yet, he was dropping buckets? What credibility does he have left when he just lies about everything? Do you guys really think he's worth quoting/discussing with? C'mon, you're better off banging your head at the wall.

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:26 AM
You guys know why Lebron is dunking so much despite his loss of athletic ability? Itís because his shot is so much deadlier now that guys have to play up on him. His first step always seemed slower then it was because guys played off him because his drive was so deadly and his shot was trash. Even with the loss of athletic ability, the pluses his shot have brought have actually made it easier for him to penetrate than ever. Both he and Jordan were able to take advantage of getting a wet shot and being so much farther ahead of everyone athletically that even by mid 30ís they were both still easily the best and still the most athletic. And still able to get better and improve by working on there games.

And itís not just the shot, itís the euro step, the comfort and footwork with his back to the basket. His ability to dissect a defense fro any spot on the floor from simply a scoring aspect is off the charts st this point. His speed, power, and IQ are unmatched. He can get to any spot on the court at any time and go to work and when all else fails he can just muscle his way to the rim. There is zero ways to stop him now.

nastynice
04-02-2018, 03:40 AM
Itís just to bad you werenít around to see Jordan crying year after year (and I do mean literally crying) after being bounced by the Pistons. I doubt you were even cooking yet when Mike was failing. Thatís why itís pathetic when you point out these 3 min blips here and there to cement your Lebron non Goat arguments. You cant use that against mike because we canít watch full series of him year after year.

My lebron non goat argument is that he wasnít a perfect 6 for 6. Yes, jordan lost in the playoffs before and after (and even during that 6 yr span), but again the idea is that when he finally grew into it, when his team did, they ran the table. Thatís what makes Jordan the supposed goat.

Because outside of that could you really say wilt isnít better than Jordan? Shaq isnít? Kareem isnít? Theyíre all in the same tier, thereís no wrong answer take your pick, what kinda player you want?

But like I said, the thing that Jordan has is this perceived perfection and domination when it was his time. If lebron got his first ring and just went back to back until he retired, believe me this would boost his legacy.

Itís not a 3 min blip friend, but that blip is definitely telling. That woulda been the chip had they lost, can you honestly tell me lebron stuck out as the best player on the court during that 3 min blip?

nastynice
04-02-2018, 03:46 AM
Lololol, Harden will be shut down long before Bron will. As seen every year in the playoffs. We have seen Bron every year take scoring and his game to a level in the playoffs equivalent to Mike. All while rebounding and assisting st s higher level. Durant...again for me Lebron is harder to stop today. Durant and Harden May be more natural scorers, but Lebron, being the smarter player and supreme athlete is at this point better than both and impossible to stop. Those guys have way more weaknesses than Bron. They can be muscled. There is nothing you can do to Bron at this point.

Them being muscled has nothing to do with them being a scorer. Lebron is stupid effective at scoring the ball, heís smart and knows how to get space, and forgive me for there not being a stat for this but if you WATCH the game his iq is absolutely ridiculous, possibly best Iíve ever seen. But heís still not a scorer the way these guys are, whatever shot they want theyíll go get it. Other than bulling his way to the rim lebron canít do that

nastynice
04-02-2018, 03:52 AM
nastynice just became a basketball fan. He doesn't know what he is talking about. I would be surprised if he could name ten Warriors players before Curry came into the picture. Heck, he couldn't even name ten rcurrent players. This guy said he watched game 6 OT 2013 NBA Finals live. He said Chris Bosh was dropping buckets in OT. Chris Bosh had one made basket the entire OT and 12 points the ENTIRE game. Chris Bosh grabbed 0 rebounds and had 0 assists in that same OT. Yet, he was dropping buckets? What credibility does he have left when he just lies about everything? Do you guys really think he's worth quoting/discussing with? C'mon, you're better off banging your head at the wall.

lol at you running that way with ďbosh n them boysĒ, lmaoo

Go find some stats to show me.

Oh wait, you just did. Shocking.

Why even watch the game? Why not just watch the espn box score update with each play? Then you could tell us who the best player at each position is while citing their weighted stats against one another. Weighted via standard flashbolt statistical relative strength chart, of course

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 03:58 AM
My lebron non goat argument is that he wasnít a perfect 6 for 6. Yes, jordan lost in the playoffs before and after (and even during that 6 yr span), but again the idea is that when he finally grew into it, when his team did, they ran the table. Thatís what makes Jordan the supposed goat.

Because outside of that could you really say wilt isnít better than Jordan? Shaq isnít? Kareem isnít? Theyíre all in the same tier, thereís no wrong answer take your pick, what kinda player you want?

But like I said, the thing that Jordan has is this perceived perfection and domination when it was his time. If lebron got his first ring and just went back to back until he retired, believe me this would boost his legacy.

Itís not a 3 min blip friend, but that blip is definitely telling. That woulda been the chip had they lost, can you honestly tell me lebron stuck out as the best player on the court during that 3 min blip?

Maybe when Mike wasnít ready, he got eliminated early in the playoffs, and when Bron wasnít ready he got illuminated in the finals?

Maybe Jordan had Phil Jackson to teach him and the rest of the team how to play winning b-ball

Maybe basketball is a team sport?

Maybe Jordan lost at his most dominant and only won when his team was better around him.

All questions you should know the answers to which would end your silly little charade

IKnowHoops
04-02-2018, 04:00 AM
Them being muscled has nothing to do with them being a scorer. Lebron is stupid effective at scoring the ball, heís smart and knows how to get space, and forgive me for there not being a stat for this but if you WATCH the game his iq is absolutely ridiculous, possibly best Iíve ever seen. But heís still not a scorer the way these guys are, whatever shot they want theyíll go get it. Other than bulling his way to the rim lebron canít do that

Yes heís not a scorer yet heís harder to stop from scoring than any scorer.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 04:58 AM
nastynice doesn't know what scoring means. KD is on a league of his own when it comes to scoring but nastynice wants to penalize Lebron for attacking the rim. Why should LeBron settle for jumpers (an inefficient shot) when he can get a better shot that is more efficient? Nastynice wants LeBron to do a fadeaway three from halfcourt or a dribble between the legs stepback jumper over two defenders. If Harden or KD could get baskets at the hoop like LeBron does, then they would do it. LeBron isn't the "scorer" harden or KD is? So why is it when the playoffs roll around, those two somehow forget how to score? is it because they're easy to solve? Can you tell me why Harden has had numerous games shooting below 20% in the playoffs? Yet, you're telling me he's not the scorer Harden is. Lmao, go to sleep my young boy. "whatever shot they want, they get it." Yes, Lebron does get what he wants. It's why he attacks the basket so many times. My God I thought PSD was to learn about basketball. this guy makes me want to quit watching basketball.

nastynice
04-02-2018, 06:33 AM
Maybe when Mike wasnít ready, he got eliminated early in the playoffs, and when Bron wasnít ready he got illuminated in the finals?

Maybe Jordan had Phil Jackson to teach him and the rest of the team how to play winning b-ball

Maybe basketball is a team sport?

Maybe Jordan lost at his most dominant and only won when his team was better around him.

All questions you should know the answers to which would end your silly little charade

Yes, thatís my entire point, when Jordan reached that level he was perfect, lebron wasnít. Thatís why people call Jordan goat. Kareem wasnít. Magic wasnít. Shaq wasnt.

You get that Iím just mentioning this so you understand why Jordan has this somewhat consensus goat legacy right? Iím not myself claiming Jordan the goat. But you keep bringing up all these things, and thatís great, and wilt and Kareem have also put up monster numbers like lebron, but what Jordan did is untouchable. Only unless someone runs the table like he did in that dominant fashion could someone legit take that title from him.

nastynice
04-02-2018, 06:47 AM
Yes heís not a scorer yet heís harder to stop from scoring than any scorer.


nastynice doesn't know what scoring means. KD is on a league of his own when it comes to scoring but nastynice wants to penalize Lebron for attacking the rim. Why should LeBron settle for jumpers (an inefficient shot) when he can get a better shot that is more efficient? Nastynice wants LeBron to do a fadeaway three from halfcourt or a dribble between the legs stepback jumper over two defenders. If Harden or KD could get baskets at the hoop like LeBron does, then they would do it. LeBron isn't the "scorer" harden or KD is? So why is it when the playoffs roll around, those two somehow forget how to score? is it because they're easy to solve? Can you tell me why Harden has had numerous games shooting below 20% in the playoffs? Yet, you're telling me he's not the scorer Harden is. Lmao, go to sleep my young boy. "whatever shot they want, they get it." Yes, Lebron does get what he wants. It's why he attacks the basket so many times. My God I thought PSD was to learn about basketball. this guy makes me want to quit watching basketball.

Lemme break this thing down for you, Iím a show you what the difference is. When the dubs need a late bucket, like game 3, kd takes the ball, goes to his spot, simply gives zero ****s that Tristan is smack dab between him and the basket, elevates right over his tall ***, and drops his bucket. He got the look he wanted, didnít matter what the defense would do, he was gonna get to that spot and he was gonna take that shot.

When the Cavs are looking for the ice shot, lebron is matched up with green and has his entire right lane open, YET HE DRIVES LEFT, then from where he could have taken his sideways fade away jumper he spots korver open in the corner and dishes it. Korvers gonna either make it or miss it, this time he missed. Once that ball touches korvers hands, lebron has no bearing on wether that ball goes in or not.

Thatís the difference between a scorer and a playmaker. Itís a different mindset. Donít dig through stats, watch the game. There were two points at which you can see lebrons not a scorer. A scorer would drive right, because thatís where the buckets at. A scorer would take his shot when he does get to his spot, not dish it to the open guy.

Iím not penalizing lebron for attacking the rim, I was saying that was the only aspect of his offense which could fall under ďscorerĒ, when he bulls to the rim he can get that shot off pretty much at will. But his free throw woes make him hesitant late game. Now if he was an all around legit ďscorerĒ, that wouldnít be an issue.

mjqusoldier
04-02-2018, 07:27 AM
Heís 3-5 in the finals. Smh at all of you saying heís the Goat over Mj. Jordan would destroy him if he ever met Lebron in the playoffs..

ewing
04-02-2018, 08:19 AM
Did you drop the mic on that one?

No? Why would I drop a mic? I am posting from my iPhone


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ewing
04-02-2018, 08:23 AM
We have to take into account that three point shooting back then wasn't as high of a threat for a defender compared to now. The shot selection and three point shots back then were more selective so it would make sense for them to have a higher shooting % based on decreased volume and more selective (open) shots. Today, they would defend your three point shot more intelligently. And when you consider the volume of shots, LeBron is the better shooter.

I think the best example I can give you is this:

Rockets are 11th in 3P% this season. No one in the world would dare say they are the 11th best shooting team in the world. Their strategy is much different than any other team in that they're more concerned with shooting the threes than any other shot. Other teams may be more selective and only shoot the three when they are open.

If you going to use context you should use context based on how the guys you are comparing are/were defended not league trends. Most of LeBron 3s have been wide open. Micheal was a better jump shooter then LeBron. If he played today I am sure he would have worked to extend his range and the margin would have been greater


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ewing
04-02-2018, 08:28 AM
Listen, I get it. That's what we do as crazy fans of a sport with thousands of the best basketball players ever. But when we break it down, are they still not basketball players? Take out the Mavs series or keep it, does it make LeBron any less of a TRUE basketball player? It doesn't. I'm just sick of reading these debates comparing them from decades in a completely different game where there are so much variables. Let's just use tiers. LeBron and Jordan are two of the greatest NBA player's ever and rank in tier 1. That's so much better than saying, "Well LeBron choked in the Mavs" and me replying back ten pages later, "Well, Bulls won two less games after Jordan retired and Pippen took the lead." I mean, who is right at the end of the day?

The won 50 but lost in the second round after winning 3 straight titles the year Jordan left. Watching LeBron should have taught you that some teams turn it on for the playoffs. The next year without Jordan they were about 500 for most of the season. Once Jordan returned for a full season they won another 3 titles.


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ewing
04-02-2018, 08:30 AM
Itís just to bad you werenít around to see Jordan crying year after year (and I do mean literally crying) after being bounced by the Pistons. I doubt you were even cooking yet when Mike was failing. Thatís why itís pathetic when you point out these 3 min blips here and there to cement your Lebron non Goat arguments. You cant use that against mike because we canít watch full series of him year after year.

Sure you can. He was the best player on the floor when he lost. Check it out


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ewing
04-02-2018, 08:36 AM
Lololol, Harden will be shut down long before Bron will. As seen every year in the playoffs. We have seen Bron every year take scoring and his game to a level in the playoffs equivalent to Mike. All while rebounding and assisting st s higher level. Durant...again for me Lebron is harder to stop today. Durant and Harden May be more natural scorers, but Lebron, being the smarter player and supreme athlete is at this point better than both and impossible to stop. Those guys have way more weaknesses than Bron. They can be muscled. There is nothing you can do to Bron at this point.

MJ dropped 40 38 times in the postseason LeBron has done it 14. One is a lot more then the other. LeBron has played more And LeBron plays in a era with a lot higher scoring games while Micheal played against the bad boys then the 90s Knicks, Heat, and Pacers. I think we can agree one of these guys was a much better playoff scorer


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ewing
04-02-2018, 08:40 AM
And itís not just the shot, itís the euro step, the comfort and footwork with his back to the basket. His ability to dissect a defense fro any spot on the floor from simply a scoring aspect is off the charts st this point. His speed, power, and IQ are unmatched. He can get to any spot on the court at any time and go to work and when all else fails he can just muscle his way to the rim. There is zero ways to stop him now.

I think itís his shot and playing so small with 4 shooters around him most of the time. His team completely punted defense the last two years so LeBron can abuse people in the paint.


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ewing
04-02-2018, 08:44 AM
Heís 3-5 in the finals. Smh at all of you saying heís the Goat over Mj. Jordan would destroy him if he ever met Lebron in the playoffs..

There is this to. LeBron is so mentally fragile if he ever had to stare down MJ heíd crap himself


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Jeffy25
04-02-2018, 11:49 AM
Heís 3-5 in the finals. Smh at all of you saying heís the Goat over Mj. Jordan would destroy him if he ever met Lebron in the playoffs..

And Jordan never faced the level of competition Bron has in the Finals.

We can do this all day.

ewing
04-02-2018, 11:56 AM
And Jordan never faced the level of competition Bron has in the Finals.

We can do this all day.

Bron never faced Jordan in the finals


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valade16
04-02-2018, 11:59 AM
We have to take into account that three point shooting back then wasn't as high of a threat for a defender compared to now. The shot selection and three point shots back then were more selective so it would make sense for them to have a higher shooting % based on decreased volume and more selective (open) shots. Today, they would defend your three point shot more intelligently. And when you consider the volume of shots, LeBron is the better shooter.

I think the best example I can give you is this:

Rockets are 11th in 3P% this season. No one in the world would dare say they are the 11th best shooting team in the world. Their strategy is much different than any other team in that they're more concerned with shooting the threes than any other shot. Other teams may be more selective and only shoot the three when they are open.

Ok, this is the problem I have with LeBron fans in these arguments. They go statistically LeBron was better at X than MJ. And then it's Well actually, MJ was better statistically, then it becomes Well the statistics don't matter because LeBron was better at it.

MJ in his prime shot a better % from 3 in the playoffs than LeBron. If you want to bring up the context of how it was "easier" to shoot 3's back then, well what about the context of if MJ played today he'd take more 3's and have worked on his 3 point shot more? Are you really going to say MJ, perhaps the most competitive and hardest worker player ever, couldn't improve his 3 point shot to conform to today's standards?

Here was MJ's 10-16 and 16-23 FG%'s in Washington at 40 years old:

10-16: 43%
16-23: 41.7%

Here is LeBron's:

10-16: 36.7%
16-23: 38.5%

Let's cutoff young LeBron's inferior numbers and just show once he went to the Heat:

10-16: 41.5%
16-23: 39.8%

Now here is just his second stint with the Cavs:

10-16: 39.1%
16-23: 37.1%


So MJ was a better midrange shooter at 40 than LeBron has ever been. Couple that with him shooting the ball from 3 better than LeBron in the playoffs and no, I'm not buying the idea that MJ would suddenly not be a good shooter in today's league.

I've now heard that LeBron is better at driving to the hoop than MJ and that he's a better shooter than MJ. It's just ridiculous. MJ was clearly better at both of those skills than LeBron. The amount of crap people will try to claim to hoist LeBron above MJ is hilarious. MJ was a better scorer than LeBron, period. Better driver, better shooter, better at getting fouls, even a better post player.

There are many things LeBron is better than MJ at, scoring is not one of them.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 12:18 PM
Ok, this is the problem I have with LeBron fans in these arguments. They go statistically LeBron was better at X than MJ. And then it's Well actually, MJ was better statistically, then it becomes Well the statistics don't matter because LeBron was better at it.

MJ in his prime shot a better % from 3 in the playoffs than LeBron. If you want to bring up the context of how it was "easier" to shoot 3's back then, well what about the context of if MJ played today he'd take more 3's and have worked on his 3 point shot more? Are you really going to say MJ, perhaps the most competitive and hardest worker player ever, couldn't improve his 3 point shot to conform to today's standards?

Here was MJ's 10-16 and 16-23 FG%'s in Washington at 40 years old:

10-16: 43%
16-23: 41.7%

Here is LeBron's:

10-16: 36.7%
16-23: 38.5%

Let's cutoff young LeBron's inferior numbers and just show once he went to the Heat:

10-16: 41.5%
16-23: 39.8%

Now here is just his second stint with the Cavs:

10-16: 39.1%
16-23: 37.1%


So MJ was a better midrange shooter at 40 than LeBron has ever been. Couple that with him shooting the ball from 3 better than LeBron in the playoffs and no, I'm not buying the idea that MJ would suddenly not be a good shooter in today's league.

I've now heard that LeBron is better at driving to the hoop than MJ and that he's a better shooter than MJ. It's just ridiculous. MJ was clearly better at both of those skills than LeBron. The amount of crap people will try to claim to hoist LeBron above MJ is hilarious. MJ was a better scorer than LeBron, period. Better driver, better shooter, better at getting fouls, even a better post player.

There are many things LeBron is better than MJ at, scoring is not one of them.

Dude, what are you talking about? Midrange shooting and the three pointer are completely different shots. Go ask DeRozan. He's made a living in the midrange but can't knock down a three. I gave you context. You're giving me numbers. Okay, that's great.

Why do you make LeBron get the "overall career 3P%" vs Jordan's best seasons shooting the three? That's incredibly biased.

The fact is, the game has been too different so I'm giving you context as to why these numbers aren't complete evidence. I don't need to go through the entire debate with you. Larry Bird, by %, is a terrible three point shooter. Worse than MJ.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 12:25 PM
And Valade, are the Rockets the 11th best 3 point shooting team in the league? Because that's exactly what you are saying. Here's the thing you don't get. MBT has said this before as well I believe.

When you shoot more threes, your 3P% will always be lower. If you're taking 1-3 3's per game, it means they are selective quality shots. Those aren't the same shots the players who shoot threes today are taking. And LeBron isn't great at catch-and-shoot situations so most of the threes he does take are ISO plays. Couple that with teams knowing how to defend the three and you have a situation where it's just not even the same type of shots being taken.

I'd rather have a guy shoot double the threes while shooting 33% than a guy shooting half the amount of threes while shooting 36%. It's literally just 3% for double the volume...

And take into account that I've never said LeBron was the better shooter. He's poor at it, I know. I'm just giving you context as to why your argument is misleading and not evidence of their actual ability because situational shots are always going to be a higher FG%.

valade16
04-02-2018, 12:36 PM
Dude, what are you talking about? Midrange shooting and the three pointer are completely different shots. Go ask DeRozan. He's made a living in the midrange but can't knock down a three. I gave you context. You're giving me numbers. Okay, that's great.

Why do you make LeBron get the "overall career 3P%" vs Jordan's best seasons shooting the three? That's incredibly biased.

The fact is, the game has been too different so I'm giving you context as to why these numbers aren't complete evidence. I don't need to go through the entire debate with you. Larry Bird, by %, is a terrible three point shooter. Worse than MJ.

First Bolded, I didn't. I've repeatedly shown LeBron's stats not only for his career but Miami and later and then post Cavs.

Again, here is MJ's playoff 3PT% from 86-93:

36%

Here is LeBron's career playoff 3PT%:

33%

Here is him just in Miami:

34.9%

Here is him since returning to the Cavs:

32.5%

None are better than MJ.


But even the regular season, from 90-93 MJ shot 34.3% on 2 attempts a game. He certainly wasn't a terrible 3PT shooter, and given that statistically players shoot 3's better today meaning your theory on how it's harder to shoot 3's today is actually completely the opposite of reality, I'm confident that MJ would be as good or better than LeBron in today's NBA at shooting the 3, considering he's pretty much as good as him already.

valade16
04-02-2018, 12:49 PM
And Valade, are the Rockets the 11th best 3 point shooting team in the league? Because that's exactly what you are saying. Here's the thing you don't get. MBT has said this before as well I believe.

When you shoot more threes, your 3P% will always be lower. If you're taking 1-3 3's per game, it means they are selective quality shots. Those aren't the same shots the players who shoot threes today are taking. And LeBron isn't great at catch-and-shoot situations so most of the threes he does take are ISO plays. Couple that with teams knowing how to defend the three and you have a situation where it's just not even the same type of shots being taken.

I'd rather have a guy shoot double the threes while shooting 33% than a guy shooting half the amount of threes while shooting 36%. It's literally just 3% for double the volume...

And take into account that I've never said LeBron was the better shooter. He's poor at it, I know. I'm just giving you context as to why your argument is misleading and not evidence of their actual ability because situational shots are always going to be a higher FG%.

But that is just wrong. There are numerous examples of that being wrong.

Pau & Marc Gasol averaged .2 3's per game and shot terribly from 3, then the past 3 years both started taking 3's and are shooting above 36% from 3.

LMA shot .2 3's a game until 2015 when he shot 1.5 a game and made 35% of them.

Dwyane Wade is a career 28.8% 3PT shooter, yet the year he took the most 3's (2009) he made the highest % (31.7%). In fact, the years he took more 3's he actually shot better from 3.

Bird took 1.7 3's his rookie year and made 40%. Next 4 years he took .9 a game and made 25.7%, then the next 4 years he took 4 per game and made 41.4%. The more he took the better his %.

Even DeMar DeRozan actually makes more 3's the more he takes (when shooting 1.8 or more he's over 30% and less than 1.8 he shoots less than 30%).

The correlation is not the more you take the more you miss, it's if you take very few you will make very few because they likely won't be good shots or designed 3's. When you start taking them regularly you actually make more as you get more quality shots and you get into a consistent rhythm. If you start taking too many 3's your % goes down.

If MJ took 3's more regularly in a game he'd be looking to take them and take better quality shots and actually make more 3's. We know this because the year he shot the most 3's (3 per game) in 1990 he actually had his highest % (37.6%). The year he shot the 2nd most 3's per game (93) he shot the 2nd highest % (35.2%).

Even MJ shows, the more he shot 3's the better his % got.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 01:19 PM
But that is just wrong. There are numerous examples of that being wrong.

Pau & Marc Gasol averaged .2 3's per game and shot terribly from 3, then the past 3 years both started taking 3's and are shooting above 36% from 3.

LMA shot .2 3's a game until 2015 when he shot 1.5 a game and made 35% of them.

Dwyane Wade is a career 28.8% 3PT shooter, yet the year he took the most 3's (2009) he made the highest % (31.7%). In fact, the years he took more 3's he actually shot better from 3.

Bird took 1.7 3's his rookie year and made 40%. Next 4 years he took .9 a game and made 25.7%, then the next 4 years he took 4 per game and made 41.4%. The more he took the better his %.

Even DeMar DeRozan actually makes more 3's the more he takes (when shooting 1.8 or more he's over 30% and less than 1.8 he shoots less than 30%).

The correlation is not the more you take the more you miss, it's if you take very few you will make very few because they likely won't be good shots or designed 3's. When you start taking them regularly you actually make more as you get more quality shots and you get into a consistent rhythm. If you start taking too many 3's your % goes down.

If MJ took 3's more regularly in a game he'd be looking to take them and take better quality shots and actually make more 3's. We know this because the year he shot the most 3's (3 per game) in 1990 he actually had his highest % (37.6%). The year he shot the 2nd most 3's per game (93) he shot the 2nd highest % (35.2%).

Even MJ shows, the more he shot 3's the better his % got.

Okay, so you're telling me Houston has the 11th best shooting team in the NBA this season? That's literally what you're implying. And of course there are seasons where players will defy a certain idea and be the outlier. It's a freaking league of 400 NBA players (in/out). I can nitpick all these individual seasons as well for any other general rule out there but there are way too many variables such as the system being played, who's the coach, who's on the roster, floor spacing, interior offense to free up perimeter players. Heck, Steph is the largest example.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html

You can't compare someone taking 2 threes (situational shots), to someone who just shoots a higher amount of threes and teams are more aware of that so they cover that player differently. You don't guard DeRozan the same way you guard Curry. You force DeRozan to shoot the three and you STOP Curry from shooting the three. Those are two different shots they are taking.

There's a reason Houston beats teams and it's not because they are more efficient at shooting the three ball. It's because they shoot so many that it drops their 3P% but it's worth the shot selection. There has to be a certain % to where shooting the three ball at a lower % but more 3PA is more impactful than someone who takes less 3PA but makes a higher rate. And I'll be the first to admit Jordan is the better overall shooter but I don't believe his three point shooting ability is better than LeBron. Take a look at Harden. He's a better shooter than Jordan because he takes so many threes and his clip rate is at a point where it's just better than someone who takes that few threes but has a higher 3P%.

valade16
04-02-2018, 01:28 PM
Okay, so you're telling me Houston has the 11th best shooting team in the NBA this season? That's literally what you're implying. And of course there are seasons where players will defy a certain idea and be the outlier. It's a freaking league of 400 NBA players (in/out). I can nitpick all these individual seasons as well for any other general rule out there but there are way too many variables such as the system being played, who's the coach, who's on the roster, floor spacing, interior offense to free up perimeter players. Heck, Steph is the largest example.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html

You can't compare someone taking 2 threes (situational shots), to someone who just shoots a higher amount of threes and teams are more aware of that so they cover that player differently. You don't guard DeRozan the same way you guard Curry. You force DeRozan to shoot the three and you STOP Curry from shooting the three. Those are two different shots they are taking.

There's a reason Houston beats teams and it's not because they are more efficient at shooting the three ball. It's because they shoot so many that it drops their 3P% but it's worth the shot selection. There has to be a certain % to where shooting the three ball at a lower % but more 3PA is more impactful than someone who takes less 3PA but makes a higher rate. And I'll be the first to admit Jordan is the better overall shooter but I don't believe his three point shooting ability is better than LeBron. Take a look at Harden. He's a better shooter than Jordan because he takes so many threes and his clip rate is at a point where it's just better than someone who takes that few threes but has a higher 3P%.

No, I'm not telling you that Houston is the 11th best 3PT shooting team, because as I said, there comes a point when you take too many 3's that your % goes down (though they do that by design). If they took as many 3's as the league average team their % would likely increase.

What I showed you weren't outliers by the way. It's the norm. Most players who don't take any 3's shoot worse than when they start taking them regularly.

I don't know if MJ's 3PT ability is better than LeBron. I'm saying it's not worse. If he took as many 3's as LeBron (or any perimeter player in this era) takes, he'd shoot them as high a % as LeBron. If he played in this era, he'd work on his 3 more than his midrange or post game and it would improve as well. The idea that Bron is a better 3PT shooter than MJ because he shoots a marginally better % in an era where everybody shoots 3's and he practices the 3 way more than MJ's era is not very compelling to me. Given how much more players practice the 3 and emphasize it and shoot it today, being .1% better than MJ for his career tells me they're essentially the same when it comes to 3PT shooting ability.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 01:46 PM
No, I'm not telling you that Houston is the 11th best 3PT shooting team, because as I said, there comes a point when you take too many 3's that your % goes down (though they do that by design). If they took as many 3's as the league average team their % would likely increase.

What I showed you weren't outliers by the way. It's the norm. Most players who don't take any 3's shoot worse than when they start taking them regularly.

I don't know if MJ's 3PT ability is better than LeBron. I'm saying it's not worse. If he took as many 3's as LeBron (or any perimeter player in this era) takes, he'd shoot them as high a % as LeBron. If he played in this era, he'd work on his 3 more than his midrange or post game and it would improve as well. The idea that Bron is a better 3PT shooter than MJ because he shoots a marginally better % in an era where everybody shoots 3's and he practices the 3 way more than MJ's era is not very compelling to me. Given how much more players practice the 3 and emphasize it and shoot it today, being .1% better than MJ for his career tells me they're essentially the same when it comes to 3PT shooting ability.

Houston is not the 11th best 3 point shooting team, period. They are the best by far. There's no argument or debate there.

There is probably a 3 point calculator that shows you the optimal 3P% based on 3PA and when it makes more sense to shoot them. Daryl Morey has been on record stating that the Rockets work on numerous statistical systems to generate which part of the game they need work on. The guy is literally the Moneyball of the NBA. Off-topic for a bit, the guy was saying that they test numerous metrics evaluating a player based on what they need. If LeBron wasn't #1 on their metric, their analytical system was flawed. This guy is an absolute genius when it comes to analytics because he's all about it. You think he's sitting there saying, "We're the 11th best shooting team because our 3P% says so?" The guy KNOWS they will never be the best 3P% team because they take so many to where it's volume over % for them. There's only seven teams shooting over 30 threes per game. Of those three teams, only Cavs, Celtics, and Nuggets have a higher 3P% than Houston. And it's damn close. We're talking about .010 of a difference. But Houston takes 10-13 more threes than those three teams. On a 3PA and 3P% equation on points generated, Houston is the best shooting team. There is no debate on that. I'm willing to bet, if Rockets take ten less threes per game, they wouldn't be the tema they are today. They would be worse but they would probably have a higher 3P%. Teams know. Daryl Morey knows. 3P% is irrelevant if we don't take into account 3PA.

valade16
04-02-2018, 02:03 PM
Houston is not the 11th best 3 point shooting team, period. They are the best by far. There's no argument or debate there.

There is probably a 3 point calculator that shows you the optimal 3P% based on 3PA and when it makes more sense to shoot them. Daryl Morey has been on record stating that the Rockets work on numerous statistical systems to generate which part of the game they need work on. The guy is literally the Moneyball of the NBA. Off-topic for a bit, the guy was saying that they test numerous metrics evaluating a player based on what they need. If LeBron wasn't #1 on their metric, their analytical system was flawed. This guy is an absolute genius when it comes to analytics because he's all about it. You think he's sitting there saying, "We're the 11th best shooting team because our 3P% says so?" The guy KNOWS they will never be the best 3P% team because they take so many to where it's volume over % for them. There's only seven teams shooting over 30 threes per game. Of those three teams, only Cavs, Celtics, and Nuggets have a higher 3P% than Houston. And it's damn close. We're talking about .010 of a difference. But Houston takes 10-13 more threes than those three teams. On a 3PA and 3P% equation on points generated, Houston is the best shooting team. There is no debate on that. I'm willing to bet, if Rockets take ten less threes per game, they wouldn't be the tema they are today. They would be worse but they would probably have a higher 3P%. Teams know. Daryl Morey knows. 3P% is irrelevant if we don't take into account 3PA.

I was never arguing against Houston being the best 3PT shooting team, but so long as you are adamant about this debate: no they are not.

The Warriors are. They shoot 39.3% from 3. I know it's "only" on 28.9 attempts, but they could increase the volume of their 3PT shooting and still remain one of the best teams by %. The Rocket's only make 4 more 3's than them a game and they take 13 more shots. 4/6 players who shoot more than 2 3's a game on the Warriors make over 40% of their 3's. Nick Young makes 37.7%. The only subpar 3PT shooter on the team by % Who regularly shoots them is Draymond Green at 30.7%.

If the Warriors took 42 3's a game, they'd make more than the Rockets.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 02:19 PM
I was never arguing against Houston being the best 3PT shooting team, but so long as you are adamant about this debate: no they are not.

The Warriors are. They shoot 39.3% from 3. I know it's "only" on 28.9 attempts, but they could increase the volume of their 3PT shooting and still remain one of the best teams by %. The Rocket's only make 4 more 3's than them a game and they take 13 more shots. 4/6 players who shoot more than 2 3's a game on the Warriors make over 40% of their 3's. Nick Young makes 37.7%. The only subpar 3PT shooter on the team by % Who regularly shoots them is Draymond Green at 30.7%.

If the Warriors took 42 3's a game, they'd make more than the Rockets.

Well, I have a flight soon so this will be my last response for awhile so I'll just give you my overall response to this real quick.

1) Yes they are.
2) Yes they are.
3) Warriors are not the best shooting team. They have the best top heavy shooters on their team but they take up half their threes. It's too reliant on just those two guys so they're taking shots that aren't going to be there for them based on matchups. Houston takes that same amount irregardless of who they play. It's why they can beat anyone and it's a rather simple strategy. For example, you say, "If the Warriors took 43 threes." Well, let's see, Klay takes 7 and Curry takes 11 right now. They take up over 60% of the Warriors threes. If Warriors are to take 43 threes, the two players who MUST increase their output are Klay and Curry. They both would have to take 26 combined threes in that scenario. How ridiculous is that? It will never happen. And Warriors don't have the personnel as a team to shoot 43 threes and that is why they AREN'T taking 43 threes. Your "if" scenario is completely moot because there is a reason they aren't shooting 43 threes in a game where it's encouraged to shoot more threes.

Go take a look at the Warriors roster. Find me the best shooters. It's a very short list of legitimate shooters. Look, I don't care about the two other players you listed on your 4/6. They aren't shooting enough threes to be deemed a three point shooter. Look at the Rockets roster. Those are shooters. These guys are taking heavy loads of threes all across the roster. It's not just one guy. There is no, "Defend Harden and CP3. They will take 60% of the team's threes." No, in fact, that's why Rockets are so dangerous. Their best shooters aren't even their two best players. It's much easier to defend the three point shooting of the Warriors than Rockets because there's only four guys on that team that is a legitimate threat. Rockets have near an entire roster.

In short, Rockets are the best three point shooting team because they do it the best. Warriors are not the best three point shooting team but they have the two best shooters. It's fairly obvious which system these two play and in the Rockets case, it's all about the shooting. Warriors? If you take Curry out, there goes 33% of your threes. If you take Klay out, you have 60% of your three point shot-takers gone. Houston doesn't have that problem. But here's the thing: Houston needs Harden and CP3 to create. Klay and Curry don't need to create. KD+Klay+Curry can all get their own shot. That's the difference of both teams.

valade16
04-02-2018, 02:44 PM
Well, I have a flight soon so this will be my last response for awhile so I'll just give you my overall response to this real quick.

1) Yes they are.
2) Yes they are.
3) Warriors are not the best shooting team. They have the best top heavy shooters on their team but they take up half their threes. It's too reliant on just those two guys so they're taking shots that aren't going to be there for them based on matchups. Houston takes that same amount irregardless of who they play. It's why they can beat anyone and it's a rather simple strategy. For example, you say, "If the Warriors took 43 threes." Well, let's see, Klay takes 7 and Curry takes 11 right now. They take up over 60% of the Warriors threes. If Warriors are to take 43 threes, the two players who MUST increase their output are Klay and Curry. They both would have to take 26 combined threes in that scenario. How ridiculous is that? It will never happen. And Warriors don't have the personnel as a team to shoot 43 threes and that is why they AREN'T taking 43 threes. Your "if" scenario is completely moot because there is a reason they aren't shooting 43 threes in a game where it's encouraged to shoot more threes.

Go take a look at the Warriors roster. Find me the best shooters. It's a very short list of legitimate shooters. Look, I don't care about the two other players you listed on your 4/6. They aren't shooting enough threes to be deemed a three point shooter. Look at the Rockets roster. Those are shooters. These guys are taking heavy loads of threes all across the roster. It's not just one guy. There is no, "Defend Harden and CP3. They will take 60% of the team's threes." No, in fact, that's why Rockets are so dangerous. Their best shooters aren't even their two best players. It's much easier to defend the three point shooting of the Warriors than Rockets because there's only four guys on that team that is a legitimate threat. Rockets have near an entire roster.

In short, Rockets are the best three point shooting team because they do it the best. Warriors are not the best three point shooting team but they have the two best shooters. It's fairly obvious which system these two play and in the Rockets case, it's all about the shooting. Warriors? If you take Curry out, there goes 33% of your threes. If you take Klay out, you have 60% of your three point shot-takers gone. Houston doesn't have that problem. But here's the thing: Houston needs Harden and CP3 to create. Klay and Curry don't need to create. KD+Klay+Curry can all get their own shot. That's the difference of both teams.

There's a lot wrong with your analogy, but the biggest is the bolded. Houston isn't the "best" even by your own argument because they are the best at shooting 3's, they are the best because they shoot the most 3's.

Curry is taking 10 3's a game by they way, not 11, when he shot 11 3's a game he was the unanimous MVP and shot them at a 45% clip. I think Curry could easily increase his volume without materially affecting his %.

And it's not just 2 guys. Curry takes 10, Klay takes 7, but KD takes 6 and Young takes 4, Green takes nearly 4. I think the Rockets have more players who shoot a lot of 3's and are deeper in terms of 3PT shooters. But in the playoffs when the rotations tighten up I don't think that will matter as much.

I'm still taking GS as the best 3PT shooting team.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 03:21 PM
There's a lot wrong with your analogy, but the biggest is the bolded. Houston isn't the "best" even by your own argument because they are the best at shooting 3's, they are the best because they shoot the most 3's.

Curry is taking 10 3's a game by they way, not 11, when he shot 11 3's a game he was the unanimous MVP and shot them at a 45% clip. I think Curry could easily increase his volume without materially affecting his %.

And it's not just 2 guys. Curry takes 10, Klay takes 7, but KD takes 6 and Young takes 4, Green takes nearly 4. I think the Rockets have more players who shoot a lot of 3's and are deeper in terms of 3PT shooters. But in the playoffs when the rotations tighten up I don't think that will matter as much.

I'm still taking GS as the best 3PT shooting team.

They shoot the most 3's because they are the best shooting team.. your entire argument is based on 3P% but there is a strong correlation that once you hit a certain point, shooting more threes will lead to a lower 3P%. And that's just a general fact. If there are outliers, well, they are just outliers. Not many teams currently will have a higher 3P% if they shot more threes. It's just not true.

So look, it is just two guys taking the most shots. I never said just two shooters but I'm prefacing it by saying, Warriors heavily depend on JUST TWO guys because they take over 60% of the team's three. KD takes 6, Young takes 4. Draymond isn't even a shooter. Teams want him to shoot threes. He's simply doing it because that's what the game requires for a player of his skillset/system. Draymond has no other way to score. He has a lack of a offensive game so he finds himself open when he indirectly creates for others so he has an open shot. But just because a player shoots 4 FGA from three doesn't make him a good shooter. It just means he's open and teams possibly dare him to take those shots. It's the same with Barkley and why he gets so much hate sometimes when we talk about shooting. This guy would chuck and chuck threes for no reason. It wasn't like he can shoot. Same with Josh Smith. He was an absolute beast player who could score other than shoot the three but he shot way too many threes for no legitimate reason.

Can Curry increase his 3P%? I'll go with no. He's had that one outlier season where he did two years ago but he's declined to around the mid 42% area the past two seasons. That's down from the 45-46% average when he was taking only 7-8 threes. As a matter of fact, that's why is 2015-2016 season was the best offensive season ever IMO. The amount of threes at that clip rate is insane. He was destroying teams so bad he sat so many fourth quarters.. If teams weren't getting destroyed so bad, Curry could play in the fourth and probably average like 40 points. He was just insane.

But my point is this: Houston shoots 43 threes because they have the shooters to do it and that's their system.
Warriors don't shoot 43 threes because they have only four legitimate shooters who can shoot the ball to where 30 is probably the optimal 3PA they should take. If Warriors were to shoot 43 threes, Curry, Klay, and Durant would have to literally take more than half their FGA shooting threes. Much more. And that's not how you win games with just three guys shooting threes and the rest of the roster can't get their own shot as well as they can.

And this is where you know the playoffs is much more intense.

Check Curry's 3P% in the playoffs vs regular season.
Check Durant's 3P% in the playoffs vs regular season.

HUGE dropoff. Almost two completely different shooters. Because they get their threes much differently than Houston does. That's why I said it's easier to guard Warriors from shooting than the Rockets. Because you stay in front of Curry and you eliminate so much of the Warriors's shooting.

If you notice, I didn't mention Klay. Why? Because he's more of a catch-and-shoot player. These guys are tougher to defend the three because they're constantly moving and getting the hockey passes for a wide open shot. It's why Klay has remained constant but 100% his 3P% drops if he's asked to be the first option or playmaker (in terms of distributing the ball) for his team.

I don't see Houston facing that same problem. I could go over their previous seasons but it means nothing because they have improved as a shooting team so much with CP3 and the improvements on the roster overall.

There is nothing wrong with my analogy. It's all evidenced and stated clearly.

valade16
04-02-2018, 03:38 PM
They shoot the most 3's because they are the best shooting team.. your entire argument is based on 3P% but there is a strong correlation that once you hit a certain point, shooting more threes will lead to a lower 3P%. And that's just a general fact. If there are outliers, well, they are just outliers. Not many teams currently will have a higher 3P% if they shot more threes. It's just not true.

So look, it is just two guys taking the most shots. I never said just two shooters but I'm prefacing it by saying, Warriors heavily depend on JUST TWO guys because they take over 60% of the team's three. KD takes 6, Young takes 4. Draymond isn't even a shooter. Teams want him to shoot threes. He's simply doing it because that's what the game requires for a player of his skillset/system. Draymond has no other way to score. He has a lack of a offensive game so he finds himself open when he indirectly creates for others so he has an open shot. But just because a player shoots 4 FGA from three doesn't make him a good shooter. It just means he's open and teams possibly dare him to take those shots. It's the same with Barkley and why he gets so much hate sometimes when we talk about shooting. This guy would chuck and chuck threes for no reason. It wasn't like he can shoot. Same with Josh Smith. He was an absolute beast player who could score other than shoot the three but he shot way too many threes for no legitimate reason.

Can Curry increase his 3P%? I'll go with no. He's had that one outlier season where he did two years ago but he's declined to around the mid 42% area the past two seasons. That's down from the 45-46% average when he was taking only 7-8 threes. As a matter of fact, that's why is 2015-2016 season was the best offensive season ever IMO. The amount of threes at that clip rate is insane. He was destroying teams so bad he sat so many fourth quarters.. If teams weren't getting destroyed so bad, Curry could play in the fourth and probably average like 40 points. He was just insane.

But my point is this: Houston shoots 43 threes because they have the shooters to do it and that's their system.
Warriors don't shoot 43 threes because they have only four legitimate shooters who can shoot the ball to where 30 is probably the optimal 3PA they should take. If Warriors were to shoot 43 threes, Curry, Klay, and Durant would have to literally take more than half their FGA shooting threes. Much more. And that's not how you win games with just three guys shooting threes and the rest of the roster can't get their own shot as well as they can.

And this is where you know the playoffs is much more intense.

Check Curry's 3P% in the playoffs vs regular season.
Check Durant's 3P% in the playoffs vs regular season.

HUGE dropoff. Almost two completely different shooters. Because they get their threes much differently than Houston does. That's why I said it's easier to guard Warriors from shooting than the Rockets. Because you stay in front of Curry and you eliminate so much of the Warriors's shooting.

If you notice, I didn't mention Klay. Why? Because he's more of a catch-and-shoot player. These guys are tougher to defend the three because they're constantly moving and getting the hockey passes for a wide open shot. It's why Klay has remained constant but 100% his 3P% drops if he's asked to be the first option or playmaker (in terms of distributing the ball) for his team.

I don't see Houston facing that same problem. I could go over their previous seasons but it means nothing because they have improved as a shooting team so much with CP3 and the improvements on the roster overall.

There is nothing wrong with my analogy. It's all evidenced and stated clearly.

Even if that were true, I'm saying it doesn't hold true of the Warriors. Their 3PT% may drop if they shoot 42 3's a game, but it'd have to drop by .30 (from 39 to 36) to be at the Rockets level. So yeah, I think if they took 42 3's a game they'd be able to shoot it at a 36% clip. Last year in the playoffs they took 33 attempts per game and made 38.6% of them. So right there we see that they could increase their attempts by 3 per game and only see a .7% reduction. So just do the quick math: 36 attempts at 37.9%, 39 attempts at 37.2%, 42 attempts at 36.5%. Obviously, it's not a perfect regression, but still.

I get you believe very strongly that Houston is the best 3PT shooting team. I disagree, the Warriors are. They have the better shooters (but not more good shooters) and I trust their team more in the playoffs at shooting 3's. You talk about Curry and KD's 3PT% dropping in the playoffs, but last year Harden shot 27.8% from 3 on 10.5 attempts per game. He is by himself taking 1/4 of Houston's 3's and if he regresses like that this year in the playoffs, well they will be a far cry from the best 3 point shooting team.

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 04:39 PM
Even if that were true, I'm saying it doesn't hold true of the Warriors. Their 3PT% may drop if they shoot 42 3's a game, but it'd have to drop by .30 (from 39 to 36) to be at the Rockets level. So yeah, I think if they took 42 3's a game they'd be able to shoot it at a 36% clip. Last year in the playoffs they took 33 attempts per game and made 38.6% of them. So right there we see that they could increase their attempts by 3 per game and only see a .7% reduction. So just do the quick math: 36 attempts at 37.9%, 39 attempts at 37.2%, 42 attempts at 36.5%. Obviously, it's not a perfect regression, but still.

I get you believe very strongly that Houston is the best 3PT shooting team. I disagree, the Warriors are. They have the better shooters (but not more good shooters) and I trust their team more in the playoffs at shooting 3's. You talk about Curry and KD's 3PT% dropping in the playoffs, but last year Harden shot 27.8% from 3 on 10.5 attempts per game. He is by himself taking 1/4 of Houston's 3's and if he regresses like that this year in the playoffs, well they will be a far cry from the best 3 point shooting team.

Okay. This was a good discussion. Thanks for understanding my view. we can respectfully disagree but I do think Rockets are more potent as a shooting team than the Warriors.

It just hit me that Warriors have been without Curry since March 8th.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2018/gamelog/#65-77-sum:tgl_basic

They're shooting only 25 threes without Curry. If Harden is out with the team, they are shooting about 40 threes still.

valade16
04-02-2018, 04:53 PM
Okay. This was a good discussion. Thanks for understanding my view. we can respectfully disagree but I do think Rockets are more potent as a shooting team than the Warriors.

It just hit me that Warriors have been without Curry since March 8th.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/GSW/2018/gamelog/#65-77-sum:tgl_basic

They're shooting only 25 threes without Curry. If Harden is out with the team, they are shooting about 40 threes still.

I don't feel too strongly about it TBH. I just trust the Warriors more as a 3PT shooting team, the Rockets are definitely among the best 3PT shooting teams and they certainly have an argument as the best.

tredigs
04-02-2018, 05:22 PM
The Warriors without Curry struggle from 3. It's Klay and KD with Dray being taunted to sh. It's bad when you're relying on a G leaguer in Quin Cook to provide that offense. I am not looking forward to the 1st round.

valade16
04-02-2018, 05:57 PM
The Warriors without Curry struggle from 3. It's Klay and KD with Dray being taunted to sh. It's bad when you're relying on a G leaguer in Quin Cook to provide that offense. I am not looking forward to the 1st round.

It will be an interesting series if it's vs Utah as hot as they've been. But are you really scared if you have to face say Minnesota or Denver?

FlashBolt
04-02-2018, 07:06 PM
It will be an interesting series if it's vs Utah as hot as they've been. But are you really scared if you have to face say Minnesota or Denver?

Jimmy B. is coming back. I wouldn't want to face that Minny team without Curry.

effen5
04-03-2018, 12:18 PM
And Jordan never faced the level of competition Bron has in the Finals.

We can do this all day.

Okay, that's fine, but Lebron's never had to face a tough east to get to the finals either. Jordan has. The level of competition in the playoffs in the east in the 90s compare to the last 2 decades are night and day, and the competition isn't even close. Knicks, Heat, Pacers, they would all dominate the east like Lebron has today.

effen5
04-03-2018, 12:27 PM
Thatís why I said shooter/athletic. The combination of both. Yeah I made a point, then you made a separate point.

You can combine the 2 but it's still not better than Jordan. You're confusing size/strength with athleticism. I think you forget how scary Jordan was athletically, combine that with his dominant scoring ability, so no, he's not better than Jordan, hell he's not better than Westbrook offensively.

burtgummer
04-03-2018, 12:38 PM
The Bron Bron fanboys need a heavy dose of reality
He is nowhere near MJ all time and may even be behind Wilt
Is he one of the best of all time? yes
is the the very best ? no and its not even close

WaDe03
04-03-2018, 12:38 PM
You can combine the 2 but it's still not better than Jordan. You're confusing size/strength with athleticism. I think you forget how scary Jordan was athletically, combine that with his dominant scoring ability, so no, he's not better than Jordan, hell he's not better than Westbrook offensively.

LeBron is far better offensively than Westbrook.

IKnowHoops
04-03-2018, 01:20 PM
You can combine the 2 but it's still not better than Jordan. You're confusing size/strength with athleticism. I think you forget how scary Jordan was athletically, combine that with his dominant scoring ability, so no, he's not better than Jordan, hell he's not better than Westbrook offensively.

Yeah, you just showed your aó with the last comment. You are disqualified.

FlashBolt
04-04-2018, 01:03 AM
People act like Jordan didn't play with two GOAT level defenders, GOAT rebounder, a top 3 MVP candidate and DPOY candidate every season in Pippen/Rodman, GOAT coach vs poor Shawn Kemp and Payton. Lmao. And you're telling me Barkley's Phoenix was enough to stop Jordan pre-Rodman? They had no one to remotely even counter Jordan. You guys talk about the Knicks, Heat, Pacers.. Reggie Miller was the best player in the Pacers. This guy is a slight better Klay Thompson other than being a total pest with his skinny figure trying to act tough. And are these the same East teams that Pippen beat but a stupid ref who admitted it was a terrible call gave the win to the Knicks or else Pippen would have led the Bulls to the Finals. Oh yeah, the great Pacers with Rik Smits who can't play defense and plays like Brook Lopez? Give me a damn break with this nonsense. You give LeBron Pippen and Rodman and tell me he wouldn't run through the East back then as well. And it's funny you guys talk about the weak East... well, why isn't anyone stopping him? We're talking about an 8 year span where no one seriously knows how to beat the guy. Teams are dismantling trying to FIGURE out how to stop him. So let me ask you: If it's so easy for leBron, why aren't any other superstars out there trying to go beat him? Hint: Because East teams have been screwing themselves over trying to figure out how to beat LeBron and so many NBA superstars look at the East as poor teams and not one they can win with so it's easier to play with all the contenders in the West and only play vs LeBron when you have to. LeBron has left such a damaging effect on East teams that they have destroyed their future and present trying to beat the guy.

Bulls: Beat them up bad. Rose gets injured. Bulls trying to compete with that same roster trying to beat LeBron and it never works with Rose injured.

Celtics: Beat them so bad had Danny Ainge trade KG+PP to Nets to REBUILD..

Nets: Trade away their future to try and beat LeBron. Gets Deron. They get smacked and now they have nothing because LeBron ruined their franchise.

Pacers: Granger, PG, West, Hibbert and then Lance came along. What happened? That was a very GOOD Pacers team. LeBron beat them. Pacers trade everyone and try to rebuild a new roster with PG. Doesn't work.

Toronto Raptors: You know these guys are just flat-out trying everything they can to beat LeBron.

Celtics: Went to get Gordon Hayward - the only free agent star who was willing to go to the East. Now with Kyrie and Hayward, they think they have a shot. We will see next year but this is a Celtics team that literally went full rebuild mode to counter LeBron waiting for his decline.

Knicks: Got Melo, Amare and at that time, J.R. was a good player. Also had Chandler. Again, what frickin happened? LeBron beats them down and Knicks franchise looks lost and ends up making horrible signings.

The pattern is very simple and it's amazing no one can explain it.
Why is the East so weak and if it's all for the taking, why isn't a superstar like KD going to the East? It's easier, right?
Why have most Eastern Conference teams tanking? Because no superstar wants to go to the East so they have to tank. And once they tank (it's an investment for the future), no superstar wants to go for a rebuild mode.

The east is weak because LeBron has caused teams to screw their future up scrambling for ways to beat him. Because you have NO OTHER explanation as to why for 8 seasons, no one has been able to solve this puzzle. Only a Spurs or historic Warriors team have stopped him.

nastynice
04-04-2018, 02:13 AM
The east is weak because LeBron has caused teams to screw their future up scrambling for ways to beat him. Because you have NO OTHER explanation as to why for 8 seasons, no one has been able to solve this puzzle. Only a Spurs or historic Warriors team have stopped him..

Lebron is league changing dominant, no doubt, but some of it is just a weak collection of teams at times. Big 3 celtics, d rose bulls, Dwight magic were all legit competition, but the latter 2 were pretty short, celtics had some injury issues there too a little. Paul george pacers, raptors before this year, cmon they wouldnít be actual threats in the west, not

What Boston and philly are becoming, also what raps might be becoming, this should be solid comp, so if lebron stays weíll see it.

Before that there there were the pistons and pacers, but that rumble messed things up for Indy. Since then there really been ainít much since Jordan

If lebron was in the west you honestly think heíd be making 8 straight finals? Even take these potential historic warriors with kd on them out of the equation, he ainít gonna have the entire west scrambling to beat him, cmon. Heís already great, already the best playmaker ever, damn near subjectively, above magic.

effen5
04-04-2018, 02:02 PM
People act like Jordan didn't play with two GOAT level defenders, GOAT rebounder, a top 3 MVP candidate and DPOY candidate every season in Pippen/Rodman, GOAT coach vs poor Shawn Kemp and Payton. Lmao. And you're telling me Barkley's Phoenix was enough to stop Jordan pre-Rodman? They had no one to remotely even counter Jordan. You guys talk about the Knicks, Heat, Pacers.. Reggie Miller was the best player in the Pacers. This guy is a slight better Klay Thompson other than being a total pest with his skinny figure trying to act tough. And are these the same East teams that Pippen beat but a stupid ref who admitted it was a terrible call gave the win to the Knicks or else Pippen would have led the Bulls to the Finals. Oh yeah, the great Pacers with Rik Smits who can't play defense and plays like Brook Lopez? Give me a damn break with this nonsense. You give LeBron Pippen and Rodman and tell me he wouldn't run through the East back then as well. And it's funny you guys talk about the weak East... well, why isn't anyone stopping him? We're talking about an 8 year span where no one seriously knows how to beat the guy. Teams are dismantling trying to FIGURE out how to stop him. So let me ask you: If it's so easy for leBron, why aren't any other superstars out there trying to go beat him? Hint: Because East teams have been screwing themselves over trying to figure out how to beat LeBron and so many NBA superstars look at the East as poor teams and not one they can win with so it's easier to play with all the contenders in the West and only play vs LeBron when you have to. LeBron has left such a damaging effect on East teams that they have destroyed their future and present trying to beat the guy.

Bulls: Beat them up bad. Rose gets injured. Bulls trying to compete with that same roster trying to beat LeBron and it never works with Rose injured.

Celtics: Beat them so bad had Danny Ainge trade KG+PP to Nets to REBUILD..

Nets: Trade away their future to try and beat LeBron. Gets Deron. They get smacked and now they have nothing because LeBron ruined their franchise.

Pacers: Granger, PG, West, Hibbert and then Lance came along. What happened? That was a very GOOD Pacers team. LeBron beat them. Pacers trade everyone and try to rebuild a new roster with PG. Doesn't work.

Toronto Raptors: You know these guys are just flat-out trying everything they can to beat LeBron.

Celtics: Went to get Gordon Hayward - the only free agent star who was willing to go to the East. Now with Kyrie and Hayward, they think they have a shot. We will see next year but this is a Celtics team that literally went full rebuild mode to counter LeBron waiting for his decline.

Knicks: Got Melo, Amare and at that time, J.R. was a good player. Also had Chandler. Again, what frickin happened? LeBron beats them down and Knicks franchise looks lost and ends up making horrible signings.

The pattern is very simple and it's amazing no one can explain it.
Why is the East so weak and if it's all for the taking, why isn't a superstar like KD going to the East? It's easier, right?
Why have most Eastern Conference teams tanking? Because no superstar wants to go to the East so they have to tank. And once they tank (it's an investment for the future), no superstar wants to go for a rebuild mode.

The east is weak because LeBron has caused teams to screw their future up scrambling for ways to beat him. Because you have NO OTHER explanation as to why for 8 seasons, no one has been able to solve this puzzle. Only a Spurs or historic Warriors team have stopped him.

First, that is one long run on sentence.

Second, why is the east weak? Bron decided to join 2 of the top 4 players in the east when there already was a big lack of talent in the east. Third being Bron himself and the 4th being rose.

Third, the 90s Knicks, Pacers, and Heat would destroy all those teams you just named. Hell, I'll throw in shaqs magic team in there too. And you act like only Lebron beat the Knicks down, every team in the east was taking turns beating the Knicks down, not just lebron.

effen5
04-04-2018, 02:07 PM
LeBron is far better offensively than Westbrook.

Okay when was the last time Lebron avg a triple double the entire year...in the ****ing west??? I mean RB did it last year with no talent on his team, and he's doing it again with talent this year on his team.

I'll say lebron is a better overall player than Westbrook but he's not better offensively.

effen5
04-04-2018, 02:13 PM
Just a fyi.... all those players you said Jordan played with...

Let's not act like lebron didn't play with some future hall of famers himself.

ewing
04-04-2018, 02:25 PM
People act like Jordan didn't play with two GOAT level defenders, GOAT rebounder, a top 3 MVP candidate and DPOY candidate every season in Pippen/Rodman, GOAT coach vs poor Shawn Kemp and Payton. Lmao. And you're telling me Barkley's Phoenix was enough to stop Jordan pre-Rodman? They had no one to remotely even counter Jordan. You guys talk about the Knicks, Heat, Pacers.. Reggie Miller was the best player in the Pacers. This guy is a slight better Klay Thompson other than being a total pest with his skinny figure trying to act tough. And are these the same East teams that Pippen beat but a stupid ref who admitted it was a terrible call gave the win to the Knicks or else Pippen would have led the Bulls to the Finals. Oh yeah, the great Pacers with Rik Smits who can't play defense and plays like Brook Lopez? Give me a damn break with this nonsense. You give LeBron Pippen and Rodman and tell me he wouldn't run through the East back then as well. And it's funny you guys talk about the weak East... well, why isn't anyone stopping him? We're talking about an 8 year span where no one seriously knows how to beat the guy. Teams are dismantling trying to FIGURE out how to stop him. So let me ask you: If it's so easy for leBron, why aren't any other superstars out there trying to go beat him? Hint: Because East teams have been screwing themselves over trying to figure out how to beat LeBron and so many NBA superstars look at the East as poor teams and not one they can win with so it's easier to play with all the contenders in the West and only play vs LeBron when you have to. LeBron has left such a damaging effect on East teams that they have destroyed their future and present trying to beat the guy.

Bulls: Beat them up bad. Rose gets injured. Bulls trying to compete with that same roster trying to beat LeBron and it never works with Rose injured.

Celtics: Beat them so bad had Danny Ainge trade KG+PP to Nets to REBUILD..

Nets: Trade away their future to try and beat LeBron. Gets Deron. They get smacked and now they have nothing because LeBron ruined their franchise.

Pacers: Granger, PG, West, Hibbert and then Lance came along. What happened? That was a very GOOD Pacers team. LeBron beat them. Pacers trade everyone and try to rebuild a new roster with PG. Doesn't work.

Toronto Raptors: You know these guys are just flat-out trying everything they can to beat LeBron.

Celtics: Went to get Gordon Hayward - the only free agent star who was willing to go to the East. Now with Kyrie and Hayward, they think they have a shot. We will see next year but this is a Celtics team that literally went full rebuild mode to counter LeBron waiting for his decline.

Knicks: Got Melo, Amare and at that time, J.R. was a good player. Also had Chandler. Again, what frickin happened? LeBron beats them down and Knicks franchise looks lost and ends up making horrible signings.

The pattern is very simple and it's amazing no one can explain it.
Why is the East so weak and if it's all for the taking, why isn't a superstar like KD going to the East? It's easier, right?
Why have most Eastern Conference teams tanking? Because no superstar wants to go to the East so they have to tank. And once they tank (it's an investment for the future), no superstar wants to go for a rebuild mode.

The east is weak because LeBron has caused teams to screw their future up scrambling for ways to beat him. Because you have NO OTHER explanation as to why for 8 seasons, no one has been able to solve this puzzle. Only a Spurs or historic Warriors team have stopped him.

But LeBron did play with a guy that was better then Pippen and a guy that was better then old man Rodman, went 2 for 4, and then ran with his tail b/t his legs
And didnít I school you on the Bulls playoff run without Jordan less then a week ago?

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