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View Full Version : Manu as a starter and first option?



JasonJohnHorn
03-22-2018, 02:35 PM
Manu Ginobili came into the league at 25, and for 15 years, his per36 averages have been close to 20/5/5.

However, the Spurs often used him as a reserve, Pop never played him heavy minutes (never even averaged as much as 32 minues a game) and he was also no more than a third option.


Hindsight is of course 20/20, but some were critical of the Rockets for giving such a huge contract to a guy who never started a game before: Harden. Since, then, Harden has proved his value.

Had Manu been given a smilar opprotunity early in his career, what kind fo ceiling would he have had? Keeping in mind that the some of the best of the best in the league who played the same position, Kobe specifically, recognized Manu as one of the fiercest and skilled competitors at the position.

Thoughts?

kobe4thewinbang
03-23-2018, 01:38 AM
Dude changed the game. I hear all the time how Manu and Pop clashed at first because of his un-Spurs like style for the game, but he was a sparkplug for them several times over, especially in the Spurs/Heat II Finals. There are definitely worst 1st options available that actually were 1st options too, so Manu wouldn't be too bad. Good at driving to the rim, foul calls, defense not that bad (1.3 steals for career, 3.8 assists, 36% 3PT, 44% FG), only really bad at rebounding for being 6'6, but if he started in today's league, he'd definitely be a first option. I think he could've also been a higher usage player on a different team, but that's not the Spurs style. Pretty fond of Manu, honestly.

Edit: Manu was also wild and unpredictable, used to be pretty quick and ferocious. Plus in today's league, he could probably pull off a Harden-like season where he's dishing out assists like crazy, being 6'6" in a league that now has point forwards and taller point guards/shorter shooting guards/more combo guards. But he was also able to make it in a tougher league, more physical at the time, not 80s/90s but more than today's games.

Ginobili's basketball IQ and team spirit would have been huge, too, and they have been. He's Lonzo Ball with more aggression and shooting ability.

warfelg
03-23-2018, 08:23 AM
Manu should have about 5-6 6th man awards.

But as a counter:
Pops has called Manu his 6th starter for a long time. I saw something about minutes, and you got to throw that out when talking Pop and the Spurs. Based on what other starters did Manu played almost just as much. So he was playing "Spurs Starters minutes" during his time. I think Manu's career was what it was because of Pops using him in that way. He's always started the 3nD guy, and early bumped them down a spot and brought in Manu. I won't pretend to know a bunch about the Spurs, but I feel like it was always that the Center came out, the 2-3-4 bumped down a spot, and brought in Manu, and then he stayed to bridge to more bench players. And it let him lead that.

TL;DR:
I think the way they used Manu is why he was so great.

JasonJohnHorn
03-23-2018, 08:29 AM
Manu should have about 5-6 6th man awards.

But as a counter:
Pops has called Manu his 6th starter for a long time. I saw something about minutes, and you got to throw that out when talking Pop and the Spurs. Based on what other starters did Manu played almost just as much. So he was playing "Spurs Starters minutes" during his time. I think Manu's career was what it was because of Pops using him in that way. He's always started the 3nD guy, and early bumped them down a spot and brought in Manu. I won't pretend to know a bunch about the Spurs, but I feel like it was always that the Center came out, the 2-3-4 bumped down a spot, and brought in Manu, and then he stayed to bridge to more bench players. And it let him lead that.

TL;DR:
I think the way they used Manu is why he was so great.

They did use Manu effectively, and he was getting 'starting' minutes as per Spurs standards (I think the only guys to post higher minutes-per-game averages were TD and Parker, but I'm too lazy to verify).

But that said... his career averages are solid all-around by relatively meager; his per36 put him at neary 20/5/5, which is quite amazing.

I'm just curious what he would have been able to put out in a system where he was getting 36-40 minutes a game for about 10 years.

That said, I wouldn't question how the Spurs used him: you are correct, they used him as well as they could have, to the tune of 4 titles in his tensure. Can't fairly expect more than that (though they should have had that first series against the Heat).

Great points here!

JasonJohnHorn
03-23-2018, 08:32 AM
Dude changed the game. I hear all the time how Manu and Pop clashed at first because of his un-Spurs like style for the game, but he was a sparkplug for them several times over, especially in the Spurs/Heat II Finals. There are definitely worst 1st options available that actually were 1st options too, so Manu wouldn't be too bad. Good at driving to the rim, foul calls, defense not that bad (1.3 steals for career, 3.8 assists, 36% 3PT, 44% FG), only really bad at rebounding for being 6'6, but if he started in today's league, he'd definitely be a first option. I think he could've also been a higher usage player on a different team, but that's not the Spurs style. Pretty fond of Manu, honestly.

Edit: Manu was also wild and unpredictable, used to be pretty quick and ferocious. Plus in today's league, he could probably pull off a Harden-like season where he's dishing out assists like crazy, being 6'6" in a league that now has point forwards and taller point guards/shorter shooting guards/more combo guards. But he was also able to make it in a tougher league, more physical at the time, not 80s/90s but more than today's games.

Ginobili's basketball IQ and team spirit would have been huge, too, and they have been. He's Lonzo Ball with more aggression and shooting ability.


You are right; Pop got furious with Manu and was impatient at times. I remember him really tearing into Manu (mostly for bad passes/turnovers). Pop hates that.

I think now we see Manu as a great BBIQ guy. Right now, the way he plays, he reminds me of late years Jason Kidd, not in style of play, but in smarts. Being able to draw silly fouls and knownig how to create extra possessions.

But when he was younger, he was one of those intuitively good players. He had the skill, and athleticism, but he didn't always play smart. As he's gotten older, he's shifted from one to the other. It's been quite an amazing transfrmation.

warfelg
03-23-2018, 08:33 AM
They did use Manu effectively, and he was getting 'starting' minutes as per Spurs standards (I think the only guys to post higher minutes-per-game averages were TD and Parker, but I'm too lazy to verify).

But that said... his career averages are solid all-around by relatively meager; his per36 put him at neary 20/5/5, which is quite amazing.

I'm just curious what he would have been able to put out in a system where he was getting 36-40 minutes a game for about 10 years.

That said, I wouldn't question how the Spurs used him: you are correct, they used him as well as they could have, to the tune of 4 titles in his tensure. Can't fairly expect more than that (though they should have had that first series against the Heat).

Great points here!

Not sure. He was really efficient because of that role. I think it's one of those situations where he could have been much better with raw numbers, but not as efficient. I also think 36-40 minutes per game would have cut about 4-5 years off his career.

In fact....I think I'm talking to myself into if he got moved like Harden it would have been a bad thing for his career. I think it would have had an effect on him like Barnes going from GSW to the Mav's rather than Harden from the Thunder to the Rockets.

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 02:42 PM
I see a lot of similarities between him and Brandon Roy.

ewing
03-23-2018, 09:42 PM
I see a lot of similarities between him and Brandon Roy.

Thatís interesting. Why do you say that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FlashBolt
03-23-2018, 09:49 PM
I frickin hated Manu in 05. this dude lit us up and killed us in every game. it was the first time i really disliked an nba player and never knew why. But honestly, TP and Duncan would get more credit but Manu was better than TP. He would be a 25/5/7 player IMO if he was the first option. He's got some underrated speed and he has such a weird shot when he jumps that defenders just stop briefly and by then, Manu's already got the shot off. What's never mentioned is his passing. man, he might be one of the most talented two guards at passing the ball

YAALREADYKNO
03-23-2018, 10:08 PM
Used to hate when the mavs and spurs played because ginobili would always kill the mavs

kobe4thewinbang
03-23-2018, 10:10 PM
You are right; Pop got furious with Manu and was impatient at times. I remember him really tearing into Manu (mostly for bad passes/turnovers). Pop hates that.

I think now we see Manu as a great BBIQ guy. Right now, the way he plays, he reminds me of late years Jason Kidd, not in style of play, but in smarts. Being able to draw silly fouls and knownig how to create extra possessions.

But when he was younger, he was one of those intuitively good players. He had the skill, and athleticism, but he didn't always play smart. As he's gotten older, he's shifted from one to the other. It's been quite an amazing transfrmation.No doubt! Pop was also trying to establish his style too, so instant clash! The thing that strikes me is 25 years old?! I knew he came in later from overseas career, but 25? Wow, imagine if he came earlier!

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 10:21 PM
null

Versatile guards who have high bball IQ and are underrated athletes. They both bring a lot to the table and take nothing off.

TrueFan420
03-23-2018, 11:25 PM
One of the most underrated players of all time. Dude was clutch, could shoot, score, pass, high IQ, hustle, good defense & amazing personality. LOCK HOF.

kdspurman
03-24-2018, 12:08 AM
I frickin hated Manu in 05. this dude lit us up and killed us in every game. it was the first time i really disliked an nba player and never knew why. But honestly, TP and Duncan would get more credit but Manu was better than TP. He would be a 25/5/7 player IMO if he was the first option. He's got some underrated speed and he has such a weird shot when he jumps that defenders just stop briefly and by then, Manu's already got the shot off. What's never mentioned is his passing. man, he might be one of the most talented two guards at passing the ball

Agreed, IMO one of the greatest passers at the position, ever. He'd probably be a PG in today's NBA. I mean he was handling the ball in so many clutch situations for SA for years anyway, but I imagine his assist numbers would be pretty high.

And that 05 series man... Allen nearly sent that one to 7. I'll always remember Jerome James saying he gave the Spurs 'no respect' when asked by reporters if he thought too much was given to the Spurs by them.