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valade16
03-22-2018, 12:17 PM
This will be the final pick as interest has died off to around half of what it was. we got through 25 which is pretty impressive. So with that in mind, who should be #25 judging by who was simply the better player at their best?

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille OíNeal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant
16. Jerry West
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Dirk Nowitzki
21. Charles Barkley
22. Karl Malone
23. David Robinson
24. Chris Paul

WaDe03
03-22-2018, 12:18 PM
So if Dr. J has a worse peak than Wade, less rings, and played in a weaker era why does he always finish ahead of Wade in our yearly all time rankings?

valade16
03-22-2018, 12:24 PM
So if Dr. J has a worse peak than Wade, less rings, and played in a weaker era why does he always finish ahead of Wade in our yearly all time rankings?

What rankings are you talking about? Also, I think he has the same number of rings when you count ABA.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 12:35 PM
Chris Paul? :laugh2:

Chronz
03-22-2018, 01:12 PM
Chris Paul? :laugh2:
Yes. Duh. This is peak brah

Chronz
03-22-2018, 01:13 PM
Nah, he can't sniff tmac

mightybosstone
03-22-2018, 01:15 PM
Chris Paul? :laugh2:
Have you ever looked at Paul's numbers in 07-08 and 08-09?

07-08: 21.1 points, 11.6 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.7 steals with 48.8/36.9/85.1 percentages with a 28.3 PER, .284 WS/48 and 8.52 VORP
08-09: 22.8 points, 11.0 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 2.8 steals with 50.3/36.4/86.8 percentages with a 30 PER, .292 WS/48 and 10 VORP

By pretty much any advanced metric, those are two of the top 50 individual seasons in NBA history. And they came by one dude in consecutive seasons. I'd argue that those seasons rival and probably surpass anything Magic Johnson ever accomplished statistically. The only thing holding him back in this conversation is his lack of postseason success, which I'm not really sure is fair given that he peaked on a pretty mediocre squad in New Orleans and he has had some pretty spectacular postseason production through most of his career.

I actually think he's low on this list. There's a few guys I'd put him ahead of, especially McGrady and Karl Malone.

mightybosstone
03-22-2018, 01:22 PM
As for this ranking, I'm torn between Russell, Dr. J and Harden. I'd be fine with any of the three getting the vote here, but I went with the homer pick. Yes, I'm a Rockets fan, but if I honestly ask myself "which of these guys would I rather have at his peak to build a team around in any era?ómy answer has to be Harden.

Russell was dominant defensively, but offensively you couldn't build a squad around him, and I question whether he'd be the same guy across eras as he was in the 60s. And Erving was spectacular, but it's so hard to judge his peak since it was in the ABA, and his NBA numbers never came remotely close after the transition.

Harden's four-season peak right now in Houston has just been remarkable. And this season could end up being one of the 10-15 greatest individual seasons in NBA history. His WS/48 would be 11th highest all-time, his PER would be 16-17th all-time and his BPM would be 9th-10th all-time. He does everything well on the offensive side of the ball, and he's not remotely the sieve defensively that he's made out to be.

I do wish we had this postseason to get a better picture of how this season will shake out. But assuming the Rockets have a good showing and he plays well, I see no reason why this season shouldn't be among the greatest in league history.

valade16
03-22-2018, 01:41 PM
I'm wondering if CP3 > Harden was the correct pick. Harden is clearly the Alpha on the Rockets, do people think if it were peak CP3 he would be the Alpha over Harden?

WaDe03
03-22-2018, 01:55 PM
What rankings are you talking about? Also, I think he has the same number of rings when you count ABA.

Just our all time ranking we do each year, based on everyone's careers and all that. Yes if you count ABA they do but I don't count ABA personally. Those are very very weak rings.

Chronz
03-22-2018, 02:16 PM
I'm wondering if CP3 > Harden was the correct pick. Harden is clearly the Alpha on the Rockets, do people think if it were peak CP3 he would be the Alpha over Harden?I didn't vote but CP3 has been the better player throughout their primes, much less cp3 at his apex. Tho this playoff may change everything for harden. I'm more impressed with cp3 in playoff defeat than I have been from harden, ever. He's definitely more durable and better built for the regular season I'll grant you that but that's never been how I define greatness or peak performances. It's not even close to me either, his post season career makes cp3 blush tbh.

KnicksorBust
03-22-2018, 02:16 PM
Dr j, barry, or harden. Wish I would have gone for harden last vote.

mightybosstone
03-22-2018, 02:17 PM
I'm wondering if CP3 > Harden was the correct pick. Harden is clearly the Alpha on the Rockets, do people think if it were peak CP3 he would be the Alpha over Harden?

I had a really hard time with that choice because of this season. But while this season, Harden has probably been better than any season Paul has had, I think Paul overall has had more elite seasons in his career than James and Paul's peak years probably top anything James did prior to this year.

It's hard to tell whether peak CP3 would be the alpha dog on this team, but I don't know that you could make that call based solely on their production. This was Harden's team first, and he's built up a reputation here. If it was peak James joining peak Paul's squad, I think it might be a similar situation.

Chronz
03-22-2018, 02:17 PM
What rankings are you talking about? Also, I think he has the same number of rings when you count ABA.

Might as well give wade rings for winning his conference then

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 02:18 PM
Doesnít matter what we pick anyways, my votes havenít been counted! Nice job guys

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 02:22 PM
Only a few players have ever been the Face of the NBA. That blows any statistic or metric you want to post, only one player left that was the face of the NBA and helped carry it into one of the greatest eras ever for Magic/Bird to take over.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 02:23 PM
That to me is Peak.

WaDe03
03-22-2018, 02:23 PM
Only a few players have ever been the Face of the NBA. That blows any statistic or metric you want to post, only one player left that was the face of the NBA and helped carry it into one of the greatest eras ever for Magic/Bird to take over.

And for some reason they won't even add him to the poll. I've been voting for him since he threw his chicken tortilla soup at his asssitant coach a couple weeks ago.

Chronz
03-22-2018, 02:30 PM
That to me is Peak.
At one point George Mikan was the face of the league, good luck convincing anyone he could play with a 24 sec shot clock .

Outta curiosity, can you give us your list of the faces of the league

FlashBolt
03-22-2018, 02:33 PM
At one point George Mikan was the face of the league, good luck convincing anyone he could play with a 24 sec shot clock .

Outta curiosity, can you give us your list of the faces of the league

KoBy bRyAnT tEh bLaCk mAMbA lolz

Redrum187
03-22-2018, 03:21 PM
To the short term memory people... how in the ***k is Harden over Kawhi in peak? Is it the inflated raw stats? Are we ignoring defense? Wtf? Please respond... this isn't rhetorical.

mightybosstone
03-22-2018, 03:37 PM
Only a few players have ever been the Face of the NBA. That blows any statistic or metric you want to post, only one player left that was the face of the NBA and helped carry it into one of the greatest eras ever for Magic/Bird to take over.

George Mikan was once the face of the NBA. Should he have been on this list?

mightybosstone
03-22-2018, 03:52 PM
To the short term memory people... how in the ***k is Harden over Kawhi in peak? Is it the inflated raw stats? Are we ignoring defense? Wtf? Please respond... this isn't rhetorical.

Kawhi is an interesting case, and you could certainly make a strong argument for him in the top 25 based on his all-around game and peak season last year. He finished top 3 in MVP voting the last two seasons. And last year he elevated himself to be one of the league's top scorers in addition to his elite defense and hyper-efficiency.

I think the reason I put him behind other current guys like Curry, Durant, Paul and Harden is because I've just seen them do it for longer. Kawhi's really only had two seasons among the NBA's elite, and at his absolute peak last year, he got hurt early in the postseason, so we weren't able to see what he was capable of in the WCF. The counter argument to that is his Finals MVP from 2014, but that was way before he peaked, and that award felt kind of like Billups' award in that he was probably the best player on a great all-around team that didn't have an obvious best player.

And with the injury this season, it's just kind of rewritten his legacy a little bit for me. I want to see the guy come back and be the guy he was last season to prove to me that it wasn't a fluke.

Also, regarding my pick of Harden over Kawhi, what exactly do you mean by "inflated raw stats?" I keep hearing people talk about Harden's "inflated stats" in this system, but anytime I hear it, I just think it comes off as blatantly ignorant. Anyone who thinks his stats are inflated this season aren't watching him play. This isn't some system that D'Antoni created that James just happens to fit into. This system is built around Harden. So much of what he does comes from isolation. They aren't playing at some record pace. They're slowing the pace down entirely and letting him do his thing to create for himself and others. There's literally nothing about Harden's stats this year that are inflated.

Redrum187
03-22-2018, 06:28 PM
Kawhi is an interesting case, and you could certainly make a strong argument for him in the top 25 based on his all-around game and peak season last year. He finished top 3 in MVP voting the last two seasons. And last year he elevated himself to be one of the league's top scorers in addition to his elite defense and hyper-efficiency.

I think the reason I put him behind other current guys like Curry, Durant, Paul and Harden is because I've just seen them do it for longer. Kawhi's really only had two seasons among the NBA's elite, and at his absolute peak last year, he got hurt early in the postseason, so we weren't able to see what he was capable of in the WCF. The counter argument to that is his Finals MVP from 2014, but that was way before he peaked, and that award felt kind of like Billups' award in that he was probably the best player on a great all-around team that didn't have an obvious best player.

And with the injury this season, it's just kind of rewritten his legacy a little bit for me. I want to see the guy come back and be the guy he was last season to prove to me that it wasn't a fluke.

Also, regarding my pick of Harden over Kawhi, what exactly do you mean by "inflated raw stats?" I keep hearing people talk about Harden's "inflated stats" in this system, but anytime I hear it, I just think it comes off as blatantly ignorant. Anyone who thinks his stats are inflated this season aren't watching him play. This isn't some system that D'Antoni created that James just happens to fit into. This system is built around Harden. So much of what he does comes from isolation. They aren't playing at some record pace. They're slowing the pace down entirely and letting him do his thing to create for himself and others. There's literally nothing about Harden's stats this year that are inflated.

I didn't really mean "inflated stats" as a bad thing. I just mean, with their style of play, it increases their stats than if they were in a different system. At the end of the day, winning takes priority over raw stats, though it's nice if you can get both, which Harden clearly is this season. Harden's advanced stats back up his elite talent though, no argument there.

If we are going off peak, 2-3 seasons, then that would include Kawhi's 3 elite seasons (back-to-back DPOY and last season where he proved he is also an offensive beast). I can promise you that I'm not ignorant of Harden/CP3's style of play in Houston. They use a lot of iso because they are 2 of the most elite iso players in the league, who ALSO know how to pass. They go against the grain, they go against the Golden State Warriors style of play where everyone passes the ball, not relying on individual play.

Now then, even if I concede that Harden and Kawhi are a wash in the regular season, you made a weak case for why they are a wash postseason. I don't doubt you watched last postseason Harden play.... where he literally gave up. It was painful to watch... You can compare Kawhi's FMVP to Billups' all you want, but isn't that astronomically better than anything Harden has done in the postseason? What HAS he done exactly? Harden's greatest postseason accomplishment postseason is making it to the WCF where he was the 6th man on a stacked OKC team that lost to the Mavericks. I guess you could make the case where they lost to LeBron in the Finals is his greatest accomplishment, but he sort of hurt OKC that series. Harden and Kawhi are worlds apart when we analyze their postseason peaks thus far... Kawhi had 3 ultra great postseasons in a row where he is one of the few players who increases his level of play in comparison to his regular season production. Don't take my word for it... check out Kawhi's postseason numbers the past 3 postseasons and compare it with his last 3 regular season numbers. Furthermore, it's not that his stats are better, it's proven to have a greater impact on team success than Harden's. I could NEVER envision Kawhi giving up the way Harden did last postseason. For this, I'm still baffled how anyone thinks Harden's peak is superior to Kawhis... One has to ignore defense and the postseason for the last 3 years to think Harden is superior.

valade16
03-22-2018, 06:35 PM
I understand the concern that Kawhi hasn't shown his dominance as long as Harden, but the entire point of this exercise is to discount longevity and instead focus on their peak ability. So Kawhi not being able to sustain his top level player as long as Harden shouldn't matter.

If both were at their best, who would you pick for your team?

Redrum187
03-22-2018, 06:36 PM
To simplify it, is Harden's offense so superior to Kawhi's that it overtakes the astronomical advantage Kawhi has on defense AND Kawhi's postseason success?

Be honest... don't live in the moment and answer that question.

KnicksorBust
03-22-2018, 07:37 PM
To simply it, is Harden's offense so superior to Kawhi's that it overtakes the astronomical advantage Kawhi has on defense AND Kawhi's postseason success?

Be honest... don't live in the moment and answer that question.

I get the premise. If we quantify them Harden is like a 9 on offense and a 4 on defense and Kawhi is like an 8 on offense and a 9 on defense. But not all points are created equal or Kevin McHale would also go before Magic Johnson.

Redrum187
03-22-2018, 08:32 PM
I get the premise. If we quantify them Harden is like a 9 on offense and a 4 on defense and Kawhi is like an 8 on offense and a 9 on defense. But not all points are created equal or Kevin McHale would also go before Magic Johnson.

If we have a finite scale (0 to 10), then you're right... but why rate on a finite scale when it doesn't have to be? If it's a scale from 0 to infinite, then we can quantify which player was better overall more accurately. It still has it's flaws seeing as it's all subjective, but you get my point.

So in this sense, the question is still valid. The answer is, no... Harden's advantage offensive does NOT make up for Kawhi's superior defense, his own elite offense, and postseason success.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 08:39 PM
KoBy bRyAnT tEh bLaCk mAMbA lolz

Itís a school night kiddo, time to get to bed.

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 08:39 PM
To simplify it, is Harden's offense so superior to Kawhi's that it overtakes the astronomical advantage Kawhi has on defense AND Kawhi's postseason success?

Be honest... don't live in the moment and answer that question.

Kawhi > Harden

GREATNESS ONE
03-22-2018, 08:41 PM
At one point George Mikan was the face of the league, good luck convincing anyone he could play with a 24 sec shot clock .

Outta curiosity, can you give us your list of the faces of the league

Hahahahaha truth! I was referring to 60ís and up.

Russell
Wilt
West
KAJ
Dr J
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Shaq/Kobe
Duncan
Lebron

Iím probably missing a few but these guys are all too 25 peak talent.

mightybosstone
03-22-2018, 09:04 PM
I understand the concern that Kawhi hasn't shown his dominance as long as Harden, but the entire point of this exercise is to discount longevity and instead focus on their peak ability. So Kawhi not being able to sustain his top level player as long as Harden shouldn't matter.

If both were at their best, who would you pick for your team?

Then I'd take Harden. Because if we're going with solely peak performance, then Harden's best season statistically is absolutely superior to Kawhi's best season. But I also don't go solely by the premise of using a one-season sample size to judge peak. I like to look at a player's best 3-5 year span. In that regard, I'd still take Harden, but there's more of a conversation to be had there.

look! big kids
03-22-2018, 11:07 PM
I'm not terribly familiar with historical players, but it seems appropriate to cross the "prisoner of the moment" taboo to include what Anthony Davis is doing, what Westbrook did last season, and probably even what Giannis is doing now.

look! big kids
03-23-2018, 12:50 AM
other recents that come to mind

Drexler's peak
Dwight's 4-year peak in Orlando
Iverson '04-'06
Alonzo 2000-ish.

and for my own amusement

Webber's 2001-ish
Amare 04-05
Kemp ~95 or ~99
Jimmy Butler 2016-?
Lillard now
Yao 2006-ish
Pau on 08-10 LA championships
Brandon Roy 08-09
Embiid ??
Cousins this year
Sheed's Portland peak
Bernard King '85
Scottie's in the first couple rings or without MJ
Love's Minny peak
Kevin Johnson '90
D. Rose's MVP year

FlashBolt
03-23-2018, 01:08 AM
I'd take peak Kawhi. The guy defended the best perimeter player every night. Has to mean something. Actually, means a lot.

ewing
03-23-2018, 08:54 AM
I'd take peak Kawhi. The guy defended the best perimeter player every night. Has to mean something. Actually, means a lot.

Hey I agree with you [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

valade16
03-23-2018, 01:57 PM
Then I'd take Harden. Because if we're going with solely peak performance, then Harden's best season statistically is absolutely superior to Kawhi's best season. But I also don't go solely by the premise of using a one-season sample size to judge peak. I like to look at a player's best 3-5 year span. In that regard, I'd still take Harden, but there's more of a conversation to be had there.

I agree, Harden's regular seasons are superior to Kawhi's. But in the playoffs the past 2 years he was above Harden's level no?

30.2 PER, .640 TS% .295 WS/48 11.0 BPM while being the best defender in the league. Are those playoffs aberrations or indicative of how good he is capable of playing when healthy?

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 02:19 PM
I'm going James Harden. If you can single-handedly produce an offensively efficient 50 points per game for a team then you are one of the 25 greatest players of all-time.

Shammyguy3
03-23-2018, 02:25 PM
I'm going James Harden. If you can single-handedly produce an offensively efficient 50 points per game for a team then you are one of the 25 greatest players of all-time.

What if 26 guys are able to do that? Lol

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 02:35 PM
What if 26 guys are able to do that? Lol

:laugh:

It's a fair point but just for kicks I am going to bold the only guys that I think could get to 50 on a nightly basis with points/assists.


This will be the final pick as interest has died off to around half of what it was. we got through 25 which is pretty impressive. So with that in mind, who should be #25 judging by who was simply the better player at their best?

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille OíNeal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant
16. Jerry West
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Dirk Nowitzki
21. Charles Barkley
22. Karl Malone
23. David Robinson
24. Chris Paul

Probably about 15 guys. Dr. J and Rick Barry are close too which is why I think they should definitely land in the top 30.

FlashBolt
03-23-2018, 03:15 PM
I can't get over Harden's troubling playoff issues if I'm to choose between him and Kawhi. Being able to perform at the highest level while not having that choker label on you absolutely matters if we're comparing these two. Kawhi at his peak is a DPOY player who averages 25/5/5 on elite shooting efficiency (equal to Harden). He can shoot the three and knock down FT's at 90%. DPOY, man... How many elite perimeter players today would get that award? Kawhi is the first perimeter player to win DPOY since Artest did 14 seasons ago. And he's doing this against the most stacked position of perimeter players in a generation where you have to fight through every type of defense. It's why it has been so difficult for perimeter players to win the award. It's tough anchoring a defense when you're a perimeter player because there's so much effort involved with it.

Shammyguy3
03-23-2018, 04:33 PM
:laugh:

It's a fair point but just for kicks I am going to bold the only guys that I think could get to 50 on a nightly basis with points/assists.



Probably about 15 guys. Dr. J and Rick Barry are close too which is why I think they should definitely land in the top 30.

But to me, there are so many guys that are right at the cusp of scoring/assisting a total of 50 points a night on great efficiency.
(1) Kevin Johnson averaged 22/12 one year (58.5ts% and a 9.0 OWS and a 4.9 BPM and a 120 ORtg)
(2) Russell Westbrook 31.6/10.4 best year (55.4ts% and 8.5 OWS and a 10.9 OBPM and a 112 ORtg)
(3) Tiny Archibald 34.0/11.4 best year (55.5ts% and 13.9 OWS)
(4) Isiah Thomas 21.2/13.9 best year (52.9ts% but a 7.5 OWS and 5.2 OBPM and a 115 ORtg)

For comparison's sake, here's Magic Johnson 23.9/12.2 best year (60.2ts%, 12.1 OWS, 7.2 OBPM, 124 ORtg).
For comparison's sake, here's James Harden last year 31.0/11.2 (61.3ts%, 10.8 OWS, 9.9 OBPM, 118 ORtg).
For comparison's sake, here's Kobe's best year 35.4/4.5 (55.9ts%, 11.6 OWS, 7.3 OBPM, 114 ORtg).
For Comparison's sake, here's Erving's best year 31.9/4.2 (54.7ts%, 6.8 OWS, 114 ORtg)

Just for discussion, it would be a lot easier to argue for a few other guys here if that is what we're looking for and you include all of those guys in bold as a baseline for that. It certainly makes Harden damn impressive, but not sure if that should be considered a focal point considering it doesn't really account for the pace of play

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 04:55 PM
:laugh:

It's a fair point but just for kicks I am going to bold the only guys that I think could get to 50 on a nightly basis with points/assists.



Probably about 15 guys. Dr. J and Rick Barry are close too which is why I think they should definitely land in the top 30.

But to me, there are so many guys that are right at the cusp of scoring/assisting a total of 50 points a night on great efficiency.
(1) Kevin Johnson averaged 22/12 one year (58.5ts% and a 9.0 OWS and a 4.9 BPM and a 120 ORtg)
(2) Russell Westbrook 31.6/10.4 best year (55.4ts% and 8.5 OWS and a 10.9 OBPM and a 112 ORtg)
(3) Tiny Archibald 34.0/11.4 best year (55.5ts% and 13.9 OWS)
(4) Isiah Thomas 21.2/13.9 best year (52.9ts% but a 7.5 OWS and 5.2 OBPM and a 115 ORtg)

For comparison's sake, here's Magic Johnson 23.9/12.2 best year (60.2ts%, 12.1 OWS, 7.2 OBPM, 124 ORtg).
For comparison's sake, here's James Harden last year 31.0/11.2 (61.3ts%, 10.8 OWS, 9.9 OBPM, 118 ORtg).
For comparison's sake, here's Kobe's best year 35.4/4.5 (55.9ts%, 11.6 OWS, 7.3 OBPM, 114 ORtg).
For Comparison's sake, here's Erving's best year 31.9/4.2 (54.7ts%, 6.8 OWS, 114 ORtg)

Just for discussion, it would be a lot easier to argue for a few other guys here if that is what we're looking for and you include all of those guys in bold as a baseline for that. It certainly makes Harden damn impressive, but not sure if that should be considered a focal point considering it doesn't really account for the pace of play

First of all, great list.

I am open to all of those guys on being votable at this point. In comparison to Harden though they all clearly fall short. KJ is less efficient with significantly less scoring. Tiny and Westbrook are significantly less efficient. Zeke is significantly less efficient and significantly less scoring. The bottom list shows that the barometer is pretty good. Magic and Kobe are both top 10 worthy imo and Dr. J should have gone over CP3.

valade16
03-23-2018, 04:57 PM
Of all those guys mentioned that can contribute 50 points efficiently to a team, how many can do that in the playoffs?

MTA12
03-23-2018, 04:59 PM
Dr. J would give work to any of the last 5 guys before him on this list.

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 05:08 PM
Of all those guys mentioned that can contribute 50 points efficiently to a team, how many can do that in the playoffs?

I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

Redrum187
03-23-2018, 05:34 PM
I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

Seeing as "almost everyone" plays worse in the playoffs, doesn't it make Kawhi that much more special that he increases his level of play? I'm not sure how we just lump players like him and Dirk as outliers and delegitimize their effort. If a player does it one postseason, fine, I could accept it was a fluke, but if a player shows a pattern of stepping it up in the postseason, I think it's something to factor in.

valade16
03-23-2018, 05:34 PM
I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

And Kawhi played better, doesn't that make it even more impressive? There are a select few who played better in the playoffs. MJ, Bron, Hakeem, Duncan, Dirk, Kawhi.

FlashBolt
03-23-2018, 05:46 PM
And Kawhi played better, doesn't that make it even more impressive? There are a select few who played better in the playoffs. MJ, Bron, Hakeem, Duncan, Dirk, Kawhi.

This is my point exactly. Kawhi played better than he had in the regular season. Advanced metrics will never favor defense over offense but if it did, Kawhi would have a much higher advanced rating on all metrics. There wasn't a single flaw in Kawhi's game last season. He was a good willing passer, clutch, best defender in the league (certainly at the perimeter), could score the ball, had a three point shot, and he was 90% from the FT line. Dude just was elite at every part of the game. Then he comes into the playoffs improving on all statistical categories and led the league in PER for the playoffs at 32. Unfortunately, his playoff season ends after game 1 vs the Warriors but that was a Spurs team that with Kawhi, likely end up winning game 1 and the Spurs have HCA. Against the Warriors, Kawhi was cooking KD. What was Harden doing? Oh, lost to the Spurs team WITHOUT Kawhi when Pop decided to just sit Kawhi in game 6 knowing it probably would go to game seven?

I feel like most of us would take Kawhi last season over Harden knowing what we know after Warriors beat Spurs in last year's WCF. But since Harden's name is plastered all over the NBA and Kawhi isn't, people really forgot how good Kawhi is. Nothing beats having a guy who can drop 30 on one end and on the other, stop the other team's best perimeter player. Especially not in today's league.

Chronz
03-23-2018, 07:55 PM
I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

Even when accounting for strength of defense, and overall efficiency differentials, there still stands players who perform better or worse than what's expected of them. Again, harden's playoff moments have consisted of an impressive 6th man run where he utterly collapsed in the finals. His sole victory in a lead role came against an imploding mavs team with zero defense. So yes context matters, unfortunately for harden, it makes him look worse

Chronz
03-23-2018, 07:58 PM
And Kawhi played better, doesn't that make it even more impressive? There are a select few who played better in the playoffs. MJ, Bron, Hakeem, Duncan, Dirk, Kawhi.
Last I checked everyone tends to play worse than expected statistically save for Hakeem. I'll recheck but the gist is that so long as you're not exactly going ghost or thriving mostly on meaningless buckets then, you're doing your superstar job. At least statistically

Chronz
03-23-2018, 07:59 PM
Damn I miss watching kawhi on d

WaDe03
03-23-2018, 08:00 PM
Damn I miss watching kawhi on d

Gross.

FlashBolt
03-23-2018, 08:01 PM
Last I checked everyone tends to play worse than expected statistically save for Hakeem. I'll recheck but the gist is that so long as you're not exactly going ghost or thriving mostly on meaningless buckets then, you're doing your superstar job. At least statistically

It's not that they play worse. It's that they are playing against better teams that can actually prepare against you. It's probably why Harden struggles so much because teams start figuring out his habits and force him to make mistakes that he just isn't ready for. It's also why LeBron, this late in his career, has had the reputation of "Playoff LeBron" because he's seen everything and is ready for it. Harden just hasn't cracked that next level in the playoffs yet and it's showing statistically and visually.

FlashBolt
03-23-2018, 08:03 PM
Damn I miss watching kawhi on d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwNcbLG02g

this is my favorite. dude straight up snatched the ball from him like Ben was a child.

ewing
03-23-2018, 08:38 PM
I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

You just want your argument to be right


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YAALREADYKNO
03-23-2018, 10:11 PM
White Iverson

ewing
03-23-2018, 10:23 PM
White Iverson

Wait, what?


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KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 10:26 PM
I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

Seeing as "almost everyone" plays worse in the playoffs, doesn't it make Kawhi that much more special that he increases his level of play? I'm not sure how we just lump players like him and Dirk as outliers and delegitimize their effort. If a player does it one postseason, fine, I could accept it was a fluke, but if a player shows a pattern of stepping it up in the postseason, I think it's something to factor in.

Not to me. There are two ways to debate this:

#1) Challenge the context of those playoff results...But do you really think Harden's numbers dip the same way if he was in the Spurs system? I do not. Do you really think Kawhi could have led the Rockets to as many wins? I do not.

#2) Disagree with the whole idea that Kawhi's 3 great games in a 4-1 decimation of the Heat define his peak as superior. If Kawhi had gone 1-50 and the Heat won this wouldn't even be a discussion. But no he had 3 great games. That helps his LEGACY but not his rank on this list. I don't understand how people can be so obsessed with playoff results and yet not even utter Bill Russell's name.

KnicksorBust
03-23-2018, 10:28 PM
I feel like there is a playoff myth that needs to be debunked. Almost everyone plays worse in the playoffs because opposition is better.

You just want your argument to be right


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:laugh:

Plus there is the fact that I do actually believe if Harden was drafted to the Spurs he would have the hardware right now and these people would have no ammo.

IKnowHoops
03-24-2018, 09:36 AM
So if Dr. J has a worse peak than Wade, less rings, and played in a weaker era why does he always finish ahead of Wade in our yearly all time rankings?

This list is a joke...donít worry about it

ewing
03-24-2018, 10:23 AM
:laugh:

Plus there is the fact that I do actually believe if Harden was drafted to the Spurs he would have the hardware right now and these people would have no ammo.

Maybe maybe not but you are acting like people don't realize that generally efficiency drops in the playoffs. We do, its just some guys fall off a cliff, and some guys step up. The guys who fall off a cliff deserve to be called out and the few that step up deserve extra praise. Right now Harden hasn't earned that praise KL has

ewing
03-24-2018, 10:28 AM
Not to me. There are two ways to debate this:

#1) Challenge the context of those playoff results...But do you really think Harden's numbers dip the same way if he was in the Spurs system? I do not. Do you really think Kawhi could have led the Rockets to as many wins? I do not.

#2) Disagree with the whole idea that Kawhi's 3 great games in a 4-1 decimation of the Heat define his peak as superior. If Kawhi had gone 1-50 and the Heat won this wouldn't even be a discussion. But no he had 3 great games. That helps his LEGACY but not his rank on this list. I don't understand how people can be so obsessed with playoff results and yet not even utter Bill Russell's name.

B/c it matters. Hell i'm 40 and play twice a week, if my team is rolling i might be making plays I might not but if the other team cuts it to 13-11 and suddenly its a race to 15 damn right I'm making plays. Some guys are better, some guys are the same but don't shrink, and some guys hide. it matters

FlashBolt
03-24-2018, 11:16 AM
:laugh:

Plus there is the fact that I do actually believe if Harden was drafted to the Spurs he would have the hardware right now and these people would have no ammo.

I take a hard look at who LeBron respects the most because the best player always knows what's up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVTU-Gd3T10

The fact that this was in 2013 when Kawhi was still outside the top 20 NBA players says a lot. And I don't know if Harden would have won a ring with the Spurs if you subbed him for Kawhi but I do know that he wouldn't have those stats so it goes two ways.

KnicksorBust
03-24-2018, 11:17 AM
Not to me. There are two ways to debate this:

#1) Challenge the context of those playoff results...But do you really think Harden's numbers dip the same way if he was in the Spurs system? I do not. Do you really think Kawhi could have led the Rockets to as many wins? I do not.

#2) Disagree with the whole idea that Kawhi's 3 great games in a 4-1 decimation of the Heat define his peak as superior. If Kawhi had gone 1-50 and the Heat won this wouldn't even be a discussion. But no he had 3 great games. That helps his LEGACY but not his rank on this list. I don't understand how people can be so obsessed with playoff results and yet not even utter Bill Russell's name.

B/c it matters. Hell i'm 40 and play twice a week, if my team is rolling i might be making plays I might not but if the other team cuts it to 13-11 and suddenly its a race to 15 damn right I'm making plays. Some guys are better, some guys are the same but don't shrink, and some guys hide. it matters

It is a shame James Harden doesn't have your fortitude.

FlashBolt
03-24-2018, 11:18 AM
It is a shame James Harden doesn't have your fortitude.

It's a shame you don't realize how much more different and difficult the playoffs can be than the regular season. Regular season, be honest, in today's league pretty much most teams don't care about winning or strategy. The legitimate contenders are all gearing up for the playoffs. When those teams have an entire two weeks to gameplan vs you and your game goes downhill, it means that you can be stopped. Kawhi couldn't be stopped by the Rockets or Warriors. LeBron hasn't been stopped for years. Harden has like 3-5 really bad games every playoffs. Like BAD bad.

ewing
03-24-2018, 11:56 AM
It is a shame James Harden doesn't have your fortitude.

So far he has been **** when it counted, if you think smashing our Knicks in February makes up for that I don't know what to tell you

KnicksorBust
03-24-2018, 12:02 PM
It is a shame James Harden doesn't have your fortitude.

It's a shame you don't realize how much more different and difficult the playoffs can be than the regular season. Regular season, be honest, in today's league pretty much most teams don't care about winning or strategy. The legitimate contenders are all gearing up for the playoffs. When those teams have an entire two weeks to gameplan vs you and your game goes downhill, it means that you can be stopped. Kawhi couldn't be stopped by the Rockets or Warriors. LeBron hasn't been stopped for years. Harden has like 3-5 really bad games every playoffs. Like BAD bad.

Lmao I am the one that pointed it out first but thanks for sharing.

KnicksorBust
03-24-2018, 12:06 PM
It is a shame James Harden doesn't have your fortitude.

So far he has been **** when it counted, if you think smashing our Knicks in February makes up for that I don't know what to tell you

Do you think James Harden would have a ring if he had been drafted to the Spurs instead of Kawhi?

GREATNESS ONE
03-24-2018, 12:32 PM
If Curry is out for the playoffs, no more excuses for James Harden and the Rockets. If they Flop, case closed.

ewing
03-24-2018, 02:40 PM
Do you think James Harden would have a ring if he had been drafted to the Spurs instead of Kawhi?

IDK, if he was a best player on the team and **** the bed when it mattered most, probably not. What so hard to understand, you are what your record say you are. Right now the record says James Harden plays like **** when it matters most, until he changes that, that is who he is

Chronz
03-24-2018, 03:08 PM
Do you think James Harden would have a ring if he had been drafted to the Spurs instead of Kawhi?
Prolly not. Definitely couldn't defend lebron when they were peaking. Definitely couldn't handle a game plan built to stop him and it's taken him FOREVER to even improve upon that. He gets to the finals and then chokes. Miami has 4 titles in your timeline

FlashBolt
03-24-2018, 03:39 PM
How is Harden going to carry the Spurs when Kawhi played better last year than harden ever has? Lol. and who is guarding lebron? Harden? no thanks.

valade16
03-24-2018, 04:41 PM
Do you think James Harden would have a ring if he had been drafted to the Spurs instead of Kawhi?

I donít think itís about the ring so much as their performance. Kawhi has just been a better player in the postseason than Harden.

KnicksorBust
03-24-2018, 05:03 PM
null

If that was true explain why CP3 isn't higher?

FlashBolt
03-24-2018, 05:15 PM
If that was true explain why CP3 isn't higher?

you do realize CP3 is an elite level defender, right?

KnicksorBust
03-25-2018, 12:24 AM
If that was true explain why CP3 isn't higher?

you do realize CP3 is an elite level defender, right?

Your posts make no sense. I will explain.

If everyone wants to argue Harden is not legit because of playoffs then Russell should be ranked by now. Then Valade said ringz ain't **** its performance so if thats true then CP3 should be at Kobe's level bc his reg season peak stats are elite on every level. I am the only one voting on skills not stats. Thats what legacy rankings are created to do.

ewing
03-25-2018, 07:11 AM
Your posts make no sense. I will explain.

If everyone wants to argue Harden is not legit because of playoffs then Russell should be ranked by now. Then Valade said ringz ain't **** its performance so if thats true then CP3 should be at Kobe's level bc his reg season peak stats are elite on every level. I am the only one voting on skills not stats. Thats what legacy rankings are created to do.

CP3 is an interesting one bc you canít look at box scorers and say he **** the bed when it matter. I do think his lack of post season success is held against him though. I often argued with Chronz that he probed to much on the Clips and needed to play faster/attack more to maximize his influence. Whatever the reason I think CP3ís lack of post season success is held against bc people saw his teams as having the talent to do some damage and they didnít. He is an outlier though bc unlike the other guys we have debated he did not ghost or just play terrible


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FlashBolt
03-25-2018, 09:29 AM
Your posts make no sense. I will explain.

If everyone wants to argue Harden is not legit because of playoffs then Russell should be ranked by now. Then Valade said ringz ain't **** its performance so if thats true then CP3 should be at Kobe's level bc his reg season peak stats are elite on every level. I am the only one voting on skills not stats. Thats what legacy rankings are created to do.

It has to be a combination of both because skills does lead to stats in many cases. And I think you have difficulty understanding that these lists, as I've already stated, are already screwed since Kobe was ahead of Curry and after that, people have been voting who their favorite player is next on the list vs who was better. How does my post make no sense? You said, "Why is CP3 voted already." And I explained to you that CP3 was every bit as skilled as Harden is. You can't make the case that he hasn't because we've seen CP3 carry teams before and as a 6'2 guard, he's just as skilled as any other PG we've ever seen. But what separates CP3 and Harden is that CP3 is always an all-nba 1st team defender and it seems you don't value defense or playoff success as much. I didn't vote this list. The only player I voted for since that Kobe>Curry was I believe Bill or something. Go ask the other voters why they chose what they did. Russell should have been ranked by now.. as I've stated pages ago (at like the 21st ranking), "Might be time to vote Russell." But no one has made a case for him and it seems everyone is buying into Harden's latest games that they forgot what he's not capable of, yet.

FlashBolt
03-25-2018, 09:32 AM
CP3 is an interesting one bc you canít look at box scorers and say he **** the bed when it matter. I do think his lack of post season success is held against him though. I often argued with Chronz that he probed to much on the Clips and needed to play faster/attack more to maximize his influence. Whatever the reason I think CP3ís lack of post season success is held against bc people saw his teams as having the talent to do some damage and they didnít. He is an outlier though bc unlike the other guys we have debated he did not ghost or just play terrible


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Part of Cp3's lack of success is the fact that in the Hornets, he really didn't have a go-to-guy that some of these other teams had. Melo had a by far, better roster than Cp3 ever had pre-Clippers when he was in the Nuggets. But the biggest issue is how injury prone the Clippers were. Some series Blake was injured and the other, Cp3. They weren't both healthy for much of their playoffs history together. But even then, Cp3 has had some poor playoff moments so it's entirely valid as well. He stunk vs the Spurs like three years ago and Curry outplayed him as well in their first rounder. But never the way I've seen Harden completely lose a game because and turn the ball over like ten times.

ewing
03-25-2018, 09:58 AM
It is a shame James Harden doesn't have your fortitude.

He'd be better off

KnicksorBust
03-25-2018, 09:58 AM
Your posts make no sense. I will explain.

If everyone wants to argue Harden is not legit because of playoffs then Russell should be ranked by now. Then Valade said ringz ain't **** its performance so if thats true then CP3 should be at Kobe's level bc his reg season peak stats are elite on every level. I am the only one voting on skills not stats. Thats what legacy rankings are created to do.

It has to be a combination of both because skills does lead to stats in many cases. How does my post make no sense? You said, "Why is CP3 voted already." And I explained to you that CP3 was every bit as skilled as Harden .

You misquoted me. I was asking why isn't cp3 higher? My post is saying that if what Valade posted is true then CP3 should be ranked higher on this list.

FlashBolt
03-25-2018, 10:29 AM
You misquoted me. I was asking why isn't cp3 higher? My post is saying that if what Valade posted is true then CP3 should be ranked higher on this list.

Why should Cp3 be higher? We've already talked about him underperforming in the playoffs. I thought that was pretty self explanatory.

valade16
03-25-2018, 11:06 AM
If that was true explain why CP3 isn't higher?

Iíve been asking that for several threads now lol. I think itís because despite the intent of the list, people still have a difficult time seperating a playerís ability from their accolades.

KnicksorBust
03-25-2018, 12:18 PM
null

I agree.

KnicksorBust
03-27-2018, 11:31 AM
James Harden vs. Bill Russell vs. Kawhi Leonard next... they each have VERY specific strengths compared to the other two. It's almost not a debate it's just personal preference.

KnicksorBust
03-27-2018, 11:32 AM
One of the best offensive players of all-time?
The best defensive player of all-time?
One of the best 2-way perimeter players of all-time?