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View Full Version : A 1,000 assist season: Will it happen ever again?



JasonJohnHorn
03-20-2018, 07:05 PM
1,000 assists in as season: It has only happened nine times. Only three players have achieved this milestone: Stockton (7), Isiah Thomas (1) and Kevin Porter (1).

With the league the way it is (more passing, less iso) it seems that teams are getting more asssts (yeah ball movement), and even though this has led to an increase in assists per game, it has led to lower top averages (in general, with anomolies). This is because most teams are taking the GSW/Spurs model that focuses on all-around ball movement, which spreads the assists around.


So even with less iso and more ball movement, it has become harder for players to post impressivley high assist seasons in general.


As a result, it has been over twenty years since somebody (Stockton in 94/95) posted a 1,000-assist season.


So, will this every happen again? I would imagine, yes, at some point it will. So here's a follow-up: who currenly in the NBA (or if you wish to include a NBA prospect) is most likely to pull this off?

JAZZNC
03-20-2018, 07:40 PM
Probably not. Damn, that's staggering it's only happened 9 times and Stockton has 7 of them! And guys were trying to say that Stockton isn't the greatest passer of all time....

warfelg
03-20-2018, 07:51 PM
Probably not. Damn, that's staggering it's only happened 9 times and Stockton has 7 of them! And guys were trying to say that Stockton isn't the greatest passer of all time....

But I see people swear players are less selfish than ever!

IndyRealist
03-20-2018, 08:20 PM
That's 12.2 apg over 82 games, fyi.

JAZZNC
03-20-2018, 09:46 PM
That's 12.2 apg over 82 games, fyi.
And literally nobody good enough to do it is ever gonna play 82 games again. So you're probably looking at closer to 13 apg.

JasonJohnHorn
03-21-2018, 12:04 AM
Probably not. Damn, that's staggering it's only happened 9 times and Stockton has 7 of them! And guys were trying to say that Stockton isn't the greatest passer of all time....

I thought you'd chim in on this one ;-)

MTA12
03-21-2018, 12:11 AM
Is there even such a thing as a pass first pg anymore? You're right the assist are way more spread around now and with this fast paced league we're not going to see those slow half court maestros anymore. Sad to say but yeah doesn't look like it's likely. I do think that Lonzo Ball has the best chance to have one though!

mightybosstone
03-21-2018, 01:53 AM
Never say never. We never thought a player would average a triple double. And some of the statistical seasons we've seen from Lebron, Durant, Curry and Harden over the last decade have just been unreal. So someone could certainly come along and average 13-14 assists a game.

The biggest challenge to it, though, may not even be the sheer assist numbers or changes in the style of play. I think the lack of minutes and changes in the way star players get rest today is maybe the greater obstacle. For example, if we look at Stockton's years he accomplished the feat, he was playing 36+ minutes for 82 games a season. We just don't see that in the league anymore.

So you could have a guy post similar AST% numbers to Stockton and not even come close to 1,000 because he's playing only 33-34 minutes a night over 72-75 games rather than then the 38-minute, 82-game seasons Stockton was putting up.

ewing
03-21-2018, 05:45 AM
Yes

KingstonHawke
03-21-2018, 06:57 AM
Probably not. Damn, that's staggering it's only happened 9 times and Stockton has 7 of them! And guys were trying to say that Stockton isn't the greatest passer of all time....

He's not the greatest passer of all time. How many times did he manage that feat without a prime Karl Malone? Imagine if Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd spent their career playing with prime Karl Malone. Y'all over rate every great white player. Every white guy on the Dream Team had no business being on that court (except Mullin). And all four were included when there were easily better black players available because it was better marketing than sending an all black team.

Let's go 4 on 4, the 92' version of each person. Stockton, Mullin, Bird, and Laettner... or Thomas, Wilkins, Rodman, and Shaq. Who do you put your money on? Would this game even be close? It would look like a Harlem Globetrotters game.

KnicksorBust
03-21-2018, 07:05 AM
Probably not. Damn, that's staggering it's only happened 9 times and Stockton has 7 of them! And guys were trying to say that Stockton isn't the greatest passer of all time....

He's not the greatest passer of all time. How many times did he manage that feat without a prime Karl Malone? Imagine if Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd spent their career playing with prime Karl Malone. Y'all over rate every great white player. Every white guy on the Dream Team had no business being on that court (except Mullin). And all four were included when there were easily better black players available because it was better marketing than sending an all black team.

Let's go 4 on 4, the 92' version of each person. Stockton, Mullin, Bird, and Laettner... or Thomas, Wilkins, Rodman, and Shaq. Who do you put your money on? Would this game even be close? It would look like a Harlem Globetrotters game.

Was waiting for it. Stockton's stats don't count he had karl malone!!!!

KnicksorBust
03-21-2018, 07:06 AM
If you want to hear how great karl malone was... start your sentence with "john stockton is the best passer ever..."

JasonJohnHorn
03-21-2018, 08:18 AM
Is there even such a thing as a pass first pg anymore? You're right the assist are way more spread around now and with this fast paced league we're not going to see those slow half court maestros anymore. Sad to say but yeah doesn't look like it's likely. I do think that Lonzo Ball has the best chance to have one though!

There are pass-first PGs, but the issue is that, as you note, with the ball movement spread around, they won't be controlling things as much.

In one sense, it's a great era for assists (more ball movement, quicker tempo, more shots), but in another sense, because of the move away from traditional positions and the focus on team-passing, indivdual players will have a harder time reach a peak like that.

If you get a scenarion like OCK last year, where your star player carries a heavy load and there aren't a lot of great passers on the team, and that guys is a Chris Paul type, instead of a Westbrook type, then it is possible.

But it's going to take a while for a situation to creep up.

But yeah... if Ball pans outs, and depending on how the Lakers develop (he might be a weak shooter with a great scoring option alongside him and some spot up shooters), then Ball may be able to do it.

Part of me feels, though, that if Nash couldn't pull it off on that Suns team, it may not be possible. Though, had Nash been getting 40 minutes instead of 34, he would have.

Time will tell. It's be really nice if Ball turned out to be that kind of player though.

JasonJohnHorn
03-21-2018, 08:58 AM
He's not the greatest passer of all time. How many times did he manage that feat without a prime Karl Malone? Imagine if Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd spent their career playing with prime Karl Malone. Y'all over rate every great white player. Every white guy on the Dream Team had no business being on that court (except Mullin). And all four were included when there were easily better black players available because it was better marketing than sending an all black team.

Let's go 4 on 4, the 92' version of each person. Stockton, Mullin, Bird, and Laettner... or Thomas, Wilkins, Rodman, and Shaq. Who do you put your money on? Would this game even be close? It would look like a Harlem Globetrotters game.

Ok... I'll bite.


First, let me say that I believe you have a legit gripe with white players being overrated, and some teams in the past looking for 'white' players to placate fans. I think Boston may have been guilty of this in the 80's, and this may have been a concern for the Dream Team. That said, every player on that team deserved to be there. But let's break down the context here.

Mullen over Nique? I would have selected Nique myself; however, he was injured at the time, so who else would you put?

Stockton over Thomas? Well... MJ said he wouldn't play on the team is Zeke was on it, so it was MJ, not racism,at nixed Zeke's spot, and if not Stockton, then who else? And mind you, Stockton was better than Zeke at the time.

Laettner over Shaq? Obviously Shaq was universally regarded as the better prospect; however, the spot was given based on collegiate achievement. Had Laettner got a career ending injury in training camp with Wolves before he played a game, he'd still have a case for the HOF based on his collegiate career. He holds records for most tournament games played (23/24 possible games) and won 21 (record). Got two titles, four final-four titles and three straight finals appearances. So he was select for his winning. Nobody said he was better than Shaq, but he was selected based on his collegiate resume, which is quantifiably better than Shaqs and in fact, is historically good.

Larry Bird... are you suggesting Bird shouldn't have been on the team? If so, why are you not also suggesting Magic shouldn't have been? Neither were in their prime, but both were given spots based on their dominance throughout the 80's and their name recognition.

I was a Pistons fans and was heart broken to see that Zeke, Dumars, and Rodman missed the team (and was frustrated that Nique wasn't on, but that was due to injury).


Now... as to the claim that people are overrated Stockton... you might disagree, and if you got a case for somebody else being the better passer, I'm curious to hear it. Assist-to-turnover? Total assists? Assists per game? What's the case?

Of the ten high assists-per seasons, Stockton owns half (two more tha Magic). Of the ten highest total assist seasons, Stockton hold seven (Magic has zero).

Now you say "MAgic never had Karl Malone in his prime." True... he just had Kareem most of his career, as well a a HOF scorer in Worthy, and then All-Star guards like Byron Scott.... but who's counting, right? And Kidd has seasons where he was playing with a prime Vince Carter and had a prime Richard Jefferson on his squad, who was a helluva scorer back then. He had chance to post assist-per seasons like that.

Now let's get to the "Y'all over rate every great white player." As I've laid out, there is a CLEAR case to be made for Stockton as the greatest passer, so it's not 'unreasonable' or an instance of 'overrating' a guy to suggest he is the best passer, though it remains a subjective argument despite the stats in his favour.

But who is 'y'all' and who are the other white players 'y'all' are overrating? It sounds like you are lumping a lot of people in together and generalzing.


Again, I'll concede that the media has often over hyped good or even promising white players (Keith Van Horn use to be called the next Bird for not other reason than being white), so that is a legit gripe, yes. But when you look at the context of the dream team, it' pretty clear that there were other things at play outside of race and that though there were guys who were equally deserving of a spot on the team, every guy on that team deserved the spot they had.

I think your concern is a worthy one, and I would encourge perhaps creating a thread about racial biases in media portrayals of players (how the Boston media drooled over McHale and Ainge, but let Parish and DJ in the dust). It'd make a great conversation, but I don't think that argument is applicable to the criticism of the Dream Team selections or arguments framing Stockton as the greatest passer of all time.

warfelg
03-21-2018, 09:14 AM
Ok... I'll bite.


First, let me say that I believe you have a legit gripe with white players being overrated, and some teams in the past looking for 'white' players to placate fans. I think Boston may have been guilty of this in the 80's, and this may have been a concern for the Dream Team. That said, every player on that team deserved to be there. But let's break down the context here.

Mullen over Nique? I would have selected Nique myself; however, he was injured at the time, so who else would you put?

Stockton over Thomas? Well... MJ said he wouldn't play on the team is Zeke was on it, so it was MJ, not racism,at nixed Zeke's spot, and if not Stockton, then who else? And mind you, Stockton was better than Zeke at the time.

Laettner over Shaq? Obviously Shaq was universally regarded as the better prospect; however, the spot was given based on collegiate achievement. Had Laettner got a career ending injury in training camp with Wolves before he played a game, he'd still have a case for the HOF based on his collegiate career. He holds records for most tournament games played (23/24 possible games) and won 21 (record). Got two titles, four final-four titles and three straight finals appearances. So he was select for his winning. Nobody said he was better than Shaq, but he was selected based on his collegiate resume, which is quantifiably better than Shaqs and in fact, is historically good.

Larry Bird... are you suggesting Bird shouldn't have been on the team? If so, why are you not also suggesting Magic shouldn't have been? Neither were in their prime, but both were given spots based on their dominance throughout the 80's and their name recognition.

I was a Pistons fans and was heart broken to see that Zeke, Dumars, and Rodman missed the team (and was frustrated that Nique wasn't on, but that was due to injury).


Now... as to the claim that people are overrated Stockton... you might disagree, and if you got a case for somebody else being the better passer, I'm curious to hear it. Assist-to-turnover? Total assists? Assists per game? What's the case?

Of the ten high assists-per seasons, Stockton owns half (two more tha Magic). Of the ten highest total assist seasons, Stockton hold seven (Magic has zero).

Now you say "MAgic never had Karl Malone in his prime." True... he just had Kareem most of his career, as well a a HOF scorer in Worthy, and then All-Star guards like Byron Scott.... but who's counting, right? And Kidd has seasons where he was playing with a prime Vince Carter and had a prime Richard Jefferson on his squad, who was a helluva scorer back then. He had chance to post assist-per seasons like that.

Now let's get to the "Y'all over rate every great white player." As I've laid out, there is a CLEAR case to be made for Stockton as the greatest passer, so it's not 'unreasonable' or an instance of 'overrating' a guy to suggest he is the best passer, though it remains a subjective argument despite the stats in his favour.

But who is 'y'all' and who are the other white players 'y'all' are overrating? It sounds like you are lumping a lot of people in together and generalzing.


Again, I'll concede that the media has often over hyped good or even promising white players (Keith Van Horn use to be called the next Bird for not other reason than being white), so that is a legit gripe, yes. But when you look at the context of the dream team, it' pretty clear that there were other things at play outside of race and that though there were guys who were equally deserving of a spot on the team, every guy on that team deserved the spot they had.

I think your concern is a worthy one, and I would encourge perhaps creating a thread about racial biases in media portrayals of players (how the Boston media drooled over McHale and Ainge, but let Parish and DJ in the dust). It'd make a great conversation, but I don't think that argument is applicable to the criticism of the Dream Team selections or arguments framing Stockton as the greatest passer of all time.

I know I’m quoting a lot here for a small point:

Everyone I know that calls Stockton overrated always come back to “His passing and handling wasn’t flashy. Solid right passes do not make you good.”

:facepalm:

JasonJohnHorn
03-21-2018, 09:19 AM
Never say never. We never thought a player would average a triple double. And some of the statistical seasons we've seen from Lebron, Durant, Curry and Harden over the last decade have just been unreal. So someone could certainly come along and average 13-14 assists a game.

The biggest challenge to it, though, may not even be the sheer assist numbers or changes in the style of play. I think the lack of minutes and changes in the way star players get rest today is maybe the greater obstacle. For example, if we look at Stockton's years he accomplished the feat, he was playing 36+ minutes for 82 games a season. We just don't see that in the league anymore.

So you could have a guy post similar AST% numbers to Stockton and not even come close to 1,000 because he's playing only 33-34 minutes a night over 72-75 games rather than then the 38-minute, 82-game seasons Stockton was putting up.

This is a another great point I should have mentioned n the OP. Nash, for example, was on pace to secure that number his first season back with the Suns, and had he been given 38 or 40 minutes a game, would have. However, he also relied on his speed to push defenses to secure those scoring opprotunities for his teammates, so I'm curious if even he had the stamina for that. 'Antonio was reluctant to let others (JJ played almost 40 a game and MArion was over 38).

But yeah... coaches' approaches to minutes is certanly a factor here. Great point!

Chronz
03-21-2018, 01:45 PM
Anyone know what cp3 stats in dantoni system look like when harden ain't on the court ?

I always heard Stockton got some very favorable assists but never anything concrete. I do know assists aren't as important as ones assists per possession, how fast did his jazz teams play.

Quinnsanity
03-21-2018, 01:56 PM
Harden had 907 last year. He played in 81 games. I can't imagine an elite passer ever being in a more ball-dominant situation than he was in last season, nor can I ever imagine an elite passer ever having more shooting around him than Harden had last season. If he couldn't do it, I can't see anyone else doing so. A player would have to average 12.2 assists per game and play in all 82 games to get there. Only five players have ever averaged that many assists in a season: Magic, Stockton, Isiah, Porter and Kevin Johnson. So yea, given the proliferation of rest, more team-wide passing and the fact that three-point shooting lowers assist totals (as they are lower percentage shots and assists aren't weighted to account for the added point value they present), I can't imagine it will ever happen again.

valade16
03-21-2018, 02:05 PM
He's not the greatest passer of all time. How many times did he manage that feat without a prime Karl Malone? Imagine if Magic Johnson or Jason Kidd spent their career playing with prime Karl Malone. Y'all over rate every great white player. Every white guy on the Dream Team had no business being on that court (except Mullin). And all four were included when there were easily better black players available because it was better marketing than sending an all black team.

Let's go 4 on 4, the 92' version of each person. Stockton, Mullin, Bird, and Laettner... or Thomas, Wilkins, Rodman, and Shaq. Who do you put your money on? Would this game even be close? It would look like a Harlem Globetrotters game.

I bet Stockton wishes he would have played with Kareem and James Worthy than a prime Karl Malone...


If you want to hear how great karl malone was... start your sentence with "john stockton is the best passer ever..."

:laugh2:

So true.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2018, 02:14 PM
Probably not. Damn, that's staggering it's only happened 9 times and Stockton has 7 of them! And guys were trying to say that Stockton isn't the greatest passer of all time....

I don't think he is, but he is up there. As a natural passer, I think Magic, and Rubio are better. Stockton and Paul are on the same level though, pretty much elite as hell..

Hawkeye15
03-21-2018, 02:16 PM
Never say never. We never thought a player would average a triple double. And some of the statistical seasons we've seen from Lebron, Durant, Curry and Harden over the last decade have just been unreal. So someone could certainly come along and average 13-14 assists a game.

The biggest challenge to it, though, may not even be the sheer assist numbers or changes in the style of play. I think the lack of minutes and changes in the way star players get rest today is maybe the greater obstacle. For example, if we look at Stockton's years he accomplished the feat, he was playing 36+ minutes for 82 games a season. We just don't see that in the league anymore.

So you could have a guy post similar AST% numbers to Stockton and not even come close to 1,000 because he's playing only 33-34 minutes a night over 72-75 games rather than then the 38-minute, 82-game seasons Stockton was putting up.

yep

valade16
03-21-2018, 02:20 PM
yep

That is true, but I do want to defend Stockton by pointing out his freakish Assist numbers weren't a result of simply playing more, even by AST% he has 6 of the top 10 single season AST% years in NBA history, including the top 2:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_pct_season.html

Firefistus
03-21-2018, 03:24 PM
I don't think he is, but he is up there. As a natural passer, I think Magic, and Rubio are better. Stockton and Paul are on the same level though, pretty much elite as hell..

I personally think Pistol Pete Maravich was a better passer than Stockton. He IS actually who Stockton looked up to. Maravich had too short of a career though, too bad too because he was GREAT.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2018, 03:26 PM
That is true, but I do want to defend Stockton by pointing out his freakish Assist numbers weren't a result of simply playing more, even by AST% he has 6 of the top 10 single season AST% years in NBA history, including the top 2:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_pct_season.html

I am fully aware. Hell his career assist percentage is 50. That is stupid. But with all the factors many have brought up, one being ignored, is continuation of roster. How many times do you see a team like the 2014 Spurs get a ball handler trapped, for him to hit a guy with an impossible pass that nobody else can do? Reason is those guys have played together for 38 years, and know where each other will be at all times. Stockton had so much cohesion with his teammates, rosters, coaching staff, etc, that anyone who has played knows when you have that, you can make a pass before a guy is even open because you know where he is going.

Not to take anything away from Stockton, but he did have perfect factors around him, as well as perfect teammates that fit his skill sets. As a natural passer, I would take Rubio over him anyday. But Rubio will never average 14 assists per game in a season.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2018, 03:28 PM
I personally think Pistol Pete Maravich was a better passer than Stockton. He IS actually who Stockton looked up to. Maravich had too short of a career though, too bad too because he was GREAT.

Pistol was fancier and more risky, which sets up pretty highlights, and he may have been more gifted, but Piston reminds me more of White Chocolate when it came to passing, meaning, he fancied up the simple passes to make them look harder.

valade16
03-21-2018, 03:29 PM
I am fully aware. Hell his career assist percentage is 50. That is stupid. But with all the factors many have brought up, one being ignored, is continuation of roster. How many times do you see a team like the 2014 Spurs get a ball handler trapped, for him to hit a guy with an impossible pass that nobody else can do? Reason is those guys have played together for 38 years, and know where each other will be at all times. Stockton had so much cohesion with his teammates, rosters, coaching staff, etc, that anyone who has played knows when you have that, you can make a pass before a guy is even open because you know where he is going.

Not to take anything away from Stockton, but he did have perfect factors around him, as well as perfect teammates that fit his skill sets. As a natural passer, I would take Rubio over him anyday. But Rubio will never average 14 assists per game in a season.

As a natural passer in terms of the difficulty of the passes they could make and the spots they could see I'd take Magic, Nash, possibly Maravich, possibly LeBron over Stockton. They can see spots and put passes in places that I don't think many others can. Many others (maybe even Rubio), but being able to do those things in spurts and being able to do it consistently are two different things.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2018, 03:35 PM
As a natural passer in terms of the difficulty of the passes they could make and the spots they could see I'd take Magic, Nash, possibly Maravich, possibly LeBron over Stockton. They can see spots and put passes in places that I don't think many others can. Many others (maybe even Rubio), but being able to do those things in spurts and being able to do it consistently are two different things.

You listed guys who saw consistency though. Not to hijack this, but look at Rubio's rosters/coaching turnover. How can he possibly be expected for form chemistry with teammates when most of them are different every year, and he goes through 5 coaches now in his 7 years? Telling you dude, he makes passes that can't be made look simple. We miss it so badly this year.

Magic, and LeBron, also both have the advantage of just towering over everyone. That helps. Nash, Paul, and Stockton, all are on even par for me. Just incredible timing and accuracy.

valade16
03-21-2018, 03:48 PM
You listed guys who saw consistency though. Not to hijack this, but look at Rubio's rosters/coaching turnover. How can he possibly be expected for form chemistry with teammates when most of them are different every year, and he goes through 5 coaches now in his 7 years? Telling you dude, he makes passes that can't be made look simple. We miss it so badly this year.

Magic, and LeBron, also both have the advantage of just towering over everyone. That helps. Nash, Paul, and Stockton, all are on even par for me. Just incredible timing and accuracy.

By consistency I didn't mean consistency of situation I meant consistency in terms of making those passes.

Like I feel like guys like Rubio or Bron or Nash or whoever could sometimes make passes that were beyond what Stockton did in terms of vision and putting the ball in a place no one expected, but I don't think any of them could consistently make a smart pass to exactly where it needed to go like Stockton. Like his passes were always just right on the money.

Consider Rubio's TOV% is 20.7% and his AST% is 37%, Whereas Stockton's TOV% is 20.8% but his AST% is 50%. He certainly couldn't do some of the things Rubio could do, but his passes were far more consistently good than anybody.

WestCoastSportz
03-21-2018, 06:43 PM
I don't think it will happen because it takes a special kind of player to achieve that. As much as a passer that Jason Kidd was, he never even sniffed 900 in a season. The closest he's gotten was 808. Nowadays, with injuries and teams resting players along with monitoring a player's minutes, its not going to happen. Every team seems to be looking for that shoot first guard like Curry, Westbrook or Paul.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2018, 09:45 PM
By consistency I didn't mean consistency of situation I meant consistency in terms of making those passes.

Like I feel like guys like Rubio or Bron or Nash or whoever could sometimes make passes that were beyond what Stockton did in terms of vision and putting the ball in a place no one expected, but I don't think any of them could consistently make a smart pass to exactly where it needed to go like Stockton. Like his passes were always just right on the money.

Consider Rubio's TOV% is 20.7% and his AST% is 37%, Whereas Stockton's TOV% is 20.8% but his AST% is 50%. He certainly couldn't do some of the things Rubio could do, but his passes were far more consistently good than anybody.

My point is it's a lot easier getting routine on passes when you have roster and coaching continuity. You develop a certain understanding of each other and are more confident making tougher passes without hesitation. Long story short, the opportunities become natural, which means easier.

FlashBolt
03-21-2018, 09:47 PM
you'll also have to trust that your three point shooters are going to knock down the shots since today's game is basically the playmaker getting shooters open and with many teams not looking for pass-first PG's to lead their team, it won't happen in today's game. Back then, Stockton had the fortune of passing it to a Malone who would run straight to the basket on a cut, the low post pass to a turnaround jumper, fastbreaks Malone was like a truck coming at you.. these guys both played 82 games for 40+ minutes a night. The right factors were just there. you won't be able to replicate those same factors in today's league where you're relying on shooters having to get hot, a lack of post play, lack of pass-first PG's leading championship contenders, and no one plays 40 minutes unless their coach is Thibs.

JasonJohnHorn
03-21-2018, 11:11 PM
Anyone know what cp3 stats in dantoni system look like when harden ain't on the court ?

I always heard Stockton got some very favorable assists but never anything concrete. I do know assists aren't as important as ones assists per possession, how fast did his jazz teams play.

All great points.

CP3 is one of my fav players all time. I wish he played in the 80's/90's so people could really apprecaited him. He's had bad luck being born a 6 foot PG in this league and getting stuck on non-super teams.

I've heard the same, specifically that Stockton had favourable assist numbers at home, but the differential was like 1.5 or something (as far as I can remember), which, given that teams are more likely to lose on the road and score less isn't shocking to me.

The Jazz weren't a fast team; they had Malone grind it out in the post a lot, but Stockton kept up amazing per36 numbers until 40 (I believe he and Mark JAckson, both around 39 or 38 were first and second in assists per36 one year when they were both playing in Utah if memory serves me right).

But yeah... CP3 is amazing.

JasonJohnHorn
03-21-2018, 11:20 PM
I know I’m quoting a lot here for a small point:

Everyone I know that calls Stockton overrated always come back to “His passing and handling wasn’t flashy. Solid right passes do not make you good.”

:facepalm:

It's a good point. Stockton was the Tim Duncan of point guards. That's always how I'll see him. Even though I knew Stockton first.

Jamiecballer
03-22-2018, 04:13 PM
The game has changed. There will never be another 1000 assist season of that I am completely certain. The triple double example is poor because you cannot manipulate an assist the way the thunder intentionally/unintentionally manipulated the rebound statistic last year.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

AntiG
03-22-2018, 04:43 PM
Is there even such a thing as a pass first pg anymore? You're right the assist are way more spread around now and with this fast paced league we're not going to see those slow half court maestros anymore. Sad to say but yeah doesn't look like it's likely. I do think that Lonzo Ball has the best chance to have one though!

Rondo is, and got over 11 apg several seasons but never stayed healthy enough. His year in Sacremento he had 11.7 in 72 games.

valade16
03-22-2018, 04:52 PM
The only players that have ever averaged enough APG in a season to even get 1,000 assists are:

John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Kevin Johnson
Kevin Porter

Rajon Rondo came close a couple times (11.7 and 11.65).

The thing we aren't considering is what if the league changes back to a paradigm where there is one primary ball handler passing the ball a bunch. I think it will happen in the future, even if it takes 40 years like the Triple Double did to replicate.

ewing
03-22-2018, 05:43 PM
The only players that have ever averaged enough APG in a season to even get 1,000 assists are:

John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Kevin Johnson
Kevin Porter

Rajon Rondo came close a couple times (11.7 and 11.65).

The thing we aren't considering is what if the league changes back to a paradigm where there is one primary ball handler passing the ball a bunch. I think it will happen in the future, even if it takes 40 years like the Triple Double did to replicate.

exactly, the "ever" in here is too much to say no too even if the people saying no make interesting conversation

JasonJohnHorn
03-22-2018, 07:47 PM
The only players that have ever averaged enough APG in a season to even get 1,000 assists are:

John Stockton
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas
Kevin Johnson
Kevin Porter

Rajon Rondo came close a couple times (11.7 and 11.65).

The thing we aren't considering is what if the league changes back to a paradigm where there is one primary ball handler passing the ball a bunch. I think it will happen in the future, even if it takes 40 years like the Triple Double did to replicate.

It is possible for the game to 'devolve' or 'regress' (I don't mean to use negative words because I really appreciate and enjoy the post-game and pick-and-roll style, though I do prefer the team ball).


Even if the league doesn't shift back to that style of play, a team/coach may find it suits their style. Let's say you get a coach like Thibs or Flip in Detroit, or 'Antoni in the Suns days, and they simply don't have depth and ride their starters for 38+ minutes a game for the year. Ok. And what if they happen to have a great play maker (like Nash or Stockton, or CP3), and they also happen to have a great pick-and-role guy or PF/C with a bit of rane and great post game (like Duncan, Amare, or Malone) and a couple of spot-up shooters? That would be a perfect storm. And that team could win games.

It would take some start to align, but assuming the league is arund in 40 years, I'm sure they'll be a situation like that somewhere, or perhaps one that is unique and allows for this sort of thing.

It's hard to tell. If you told people 20 years ago that the league would have s many great 3pt shooters, and that even C's could shoot .350 from the arc, people would have laughed at you. If you said teams would play small ball and not even put a C on the court for large parts of the game, people would assume that team is a lottery team.

Yanks All Day
03-26-2018, 03:41 PM
The only player in the NBA who I can see coming close is LeBron James, and that's only if he played all 82 games on a super talented team where he decided to average around 20 ppg.

And that's saying a lot. He's never had more than 665 assists in a season (this year - through 73 games). If he decided to step back and mostly be a point guard, I think he can play 82 games and average 12.2 assists per game. But he'd have to actively be trying to do this for a season - I don't think it can just happen naturally.

Otherwise, I don't think there are any other stars really capable of it. It'll take an all-time great passer to ever do that again, and LeBron is one of maybe 2 all-time great passers in the NBA right now. The other is Chris Paul, who probably could have done it in his prime if he were on good teams, but doesn't have the usage now to come close.