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View Full Version : Teams most likely to screw up GSW vs. HOU WCF



Giannis94
03-12-2018, 04:38 PM
Alright. I acknowledge there's probably a 5% chance this isn't the wcf finals. But which of the remaining 6 could take down either Houston or GSW as is.. Not assuming health per se.

Anyone think any other team has a shot of upsetting these two?

Lakers + Giants
03-12-2018, 04:41 PM
HOU and GSW are in a league of their own tbh. The only team i'd even give a slight chance of scaring either of them is OKC, nobody else. HOU and GSW are in a completely different tier.

FlashBolt
03-12-2018, 04:43 PM
We match up well vs the Warriors but I don't see us beating the Rockets at all. They're just better equipped.

Harden>Westbrook
CP3 = PG?
Capela = Adams

And then the shooting just puts the nail in the coffin. Rockets are just loaded and I think we're like one of the worst three point defenders in the league. Honestly, I'm not sure we can even get to the Warriors unless we end up in the 7th seed. We'll definitely lose to the Rockets in 5-6. I'd give Minny the next best chance. They got Butler/KAT and if Wiggins/Teague can give the team around 35-40 points, it should be enough to win a few games. But I think people still haven't given the Rockets enough credit. For all the talk about their playoffs struggles, you can't deny that they are a total animal of a squad this regular season.

Giannis94
03-12-2018, 04:46 PM
HOU and GSW are in a league of their own tbh. The only team i'd even give a slight chance of scaring either of them is OKC, nobody else. HOU and GSW are in a completely different tier.

Alright. Maybe I should have phrased it "who can push a series to 6/7"?"

Scoots
03-12-2018, 04:47 PM
So, when I said early in the offseason that the Warriors could be beaten people were so quick to say there was no chance the Warriors lose. Now suddenly there is a chance ... any team can lose and some team usually does lose when favored, even heavily favored.

At this point we don't even know who will make the playoffs, let alone what their health will be like in the playoffs ... tough to predict when there is so much we don't know.

tredigs
03-12-2018, 04:47 PM
The elephant in the room is the Spurs adding a top 3 player in the NBA next week. A team that had Golden state reeling in the 20 minutes he has played against them in the playoffs. OKC isn't going to beat either team. The Spurs are a team that will likely be a 7 or 8 seed (if they make the playoffs), and that is a nightmare situation. The Pels are a flash in the pan. The Blazers are a super fun team but they are definitely not beating either squad if they're healthy.

FlashBolt
03-12-2018, 04:51 PM
So, when I said early in the offseason that the Warriors could be beaten people were so quick to say there was no chance the Warriors lose. Now suddenly there is a chance ... any team can lose and some team usually does lose when favored, even heavily favored.

At this point we don't even know who will make the playoffs, let alone what their health will be like in the playoffs ... tough to predict when there is so much we don't know.

We're just talking about the Rockets, though. And most of the discussion is based off hype. I'd imagine if we fast-forward two months later, we'll be having a different conversation. Can the Rockets beat the Warriors? Yes. But my intuition is I hope the Rockets can give the Warriors a run for their money because I'm not willing to believe that the NBA is ruined in terms of competition. Health is obviously a big issue but CP3 hasn't exactly been one of the healthiest PG's come late in the season. Dude somehow has some lingering issues that comes out of nowhere. I don't see any other team. Spurs with Kawhi? Maybe. Depends on how quick he gets back into action but then you also have guys like Pau+Gay who have missed significant time.

FlashBolt
03-12-2018, 04:53 PM
Is there? The OP specifically says the chance so of this happening are 5%.

The Warriors are still the best team in the league and favorites to win vs anyone, even the Rockets.

For the Rockets to beat the Warriors, everything has to be perfect.

For the Warriors to beat the Rockets, they just need to play above average.

I think we're all just hyping the Rockets up because we know they are the only chance at beating the Warriors. It's nice to have faith. I'm sure the Rockets have gained so many more new fans since Cavs don't look like they have a shot at all.

valade16
03-12-2018, 04:56 PM
So, when I said early in the offseason that the Warriors could be beaten people were so quick to say there was no chance the Warriors lose. Now suddenly there is a chance ... any team can lose and some team usually does lose when favored, even heavily favored.

At this point we don't even know who will make the playoffs, let alone what their health will be like in the playoffs ... tough to predict when there is so much we don't know.

Is there? The OP specifically says the chance so of this happening are 5%.

The Warriors are still the best team in the league and favorites to win vs anyone, even the Rockets.

nastynice
03-12-2018, 05:01 PM
Spurs

Mayyybe Pels and Thunder

Giannis94
03-12-2018, 05:04 PM
Is there? The OP specifically says the chance so of this happening are 5%.

The Warriors are still the best team in the league and favorites to win vs anyone, even the Rockets.

5% was just a guess. Maybe I'm off. But that's only if Kawhi /lma, or Dame /cj, or russ /pg play a near perfect series both offensively and defensively

tredigs
03-12-2018, 05:08 PM
Truly the most likely upset to me is a healthy Spurs with Kawhi upsetting the Rockets. But, I still don't see it happening. Those two squads are just above the grid right now. It's going to take injury to take them down before they face each other.

nastynice
03-12-2018, 05:26 PM
I think people forget just how good the Spurs have been the last couple years (67 and 61 games won respectively) because of the turrible shell of themselves they've been this year, with Kawhi being our of course and a bunch of other injuries. These guys were pretty darn good, and record wise last year they were at 51-14 at this time, which is right on par with what Houston/GS are doing.

14 games (if Kawhi returns Thursday) is a super small time to get acclimated and gel, but anything is possible; especially if he can get back to that MVP level play in about a months time. It's also important that they have no more B2B's scheduled, so that could mean (barring no setbacks) he should/could be penciled in for all remaining games.

Nothing like a little urgency to get into the playoffs. It's usually rest time the last week or so for these guys.

Kawhi's a game changer no doubt

kdspurman
03-12-2018, 05:27 PM
I think people forget just how good the Spurs have been the last couple years (67 and 61 games won respectively) because of the turrible shell of themselves they've been this year, with Kawhi being our of course and a bunch of other injuries. These guys were pretty darn good, and record wise last year they were at 51-14 at this time, which is right on par with what Houston/GS are doing.

14 games (if Kawhi returns Thursday) is a super small time to get acclimated and gel, but anything is possible; especially if he can get back to that MVP level play in about a months time. It's also important that they have no more B2B's scheduled, so that could mean (barring no setbacks) he should/could be penciled in for all remaining games.

Nothing like a little urgency to get into the playoffs. It's usually rest time the last week or so for these guys.

tredigs
03-12-2018, 05:28 PM
I think people forget just how good the Spurs have been the last couple years (67 and 61 games won respectively) because of the turrible shell of themselves they've been this year, with Kawhi being our of course and a bunch of other injuries.

14 games (if Kawhi returns Thursday) is a super small time to get acclimated and gel, but anything is possible, if he can get back to that MVP level play in about a months time. It's also important that they have no more B2B's scheduled, so that could mean (barring no setbacks) he should be penciled in for all remaining games.

Nothing like a little urgency to get into the playoffs. It's usually rest time the last week or so for these guys.

It's not a crazy amount of time (or lack there of) to be honest. This is not a Cavs situation where a team under fire just trades away everyone and tries to revamp mid-season. That's a **** show. You're simply adding a KNOWN piece that has already fit into said system and dominated (one of the best in the game, at that... and as is they have essentially the same record as the Cavs). I'm telling you, it's a nightmare situation for the Warriors/Rockets if they have to face the Spurs in round 1 (well, nightmare for both teams).

Jamiecballer
03-12-2018, 05:36 PM
To me there is nobody with a chance sadly. Injury is the best chance.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

kdspurman
03-12-2018, 05:46 PM
It's not a crazy amount of time (or lack there of) to be honest. This is not a Cavs situation where a team under fire just trades away everyone and tries to revamp mid-season. That's a **** show. You're simply adding a KNOWN piece that has already fit into said system and dominated (one of the best in the game, at that... and as is they have essentially the same record as the Cavs). I'm telling you, it's a nightmare situation for the Warriors/Rockets if they have to face the Spurs in round 1 (well, nightmare for both teams).

True.. I just hope Aldridge doesn't fall off. They need him to be the same player he's been.

But yea you're right, nightmare situation for all parties indeed.

tredigs
03-12-2018, 05:54 PM
True.. I just hope Aldridge doesn't fall off. They need him to be the same player he's been.

But yea you're right, nightmare situation for all parties indeed.

Bears mentioning though, after the Spurs lose tonight (and they will very likely lose tonight with a rested Harden), they're tied with the Clips and Nuggets for the 9/10 seed. They are far from a lock to even make the playoffs.

Scoots
03-12-2018, 06:03 PM
Is there? The OP specifically says the chance so of this happening are 5%.

The Warriors are still the best team in the league and favorites to win vs anyone, even the Rockets.

Hehe ... 5% is infinitely more than the 0% most were giving before, and the 5% was for the Warriors OR the Rockets to lose before the conference finals, which is not the same thing as just the Warriors losing. The odds of one or the other losing is FAR higher.

kdspurman
03-12-2018, 06:03 PM
Bears mentioning though, after the Spurs lose tonight (and they will very likely lose tonight with a rested Harden), they're tied with the Clips and Nuggets for the 9/10 seed. They are far from a lock to even make the playoffs.

Yup, absolutely. They'll have to play with some urgency down the stretch. Uncharted territory for the franchise

Giannis94
03-12-2018, 06:07 PM
Hehe ... 5% is infinitely more than the 0% most were giving before, and the 5% was for the Warriors OR the Rockets to lose before the conference finals, which is not the same thing as just the Warriors losing. The odds of one or the other losing is FAR higher.

I just threw 5% out there. I have clearly demonstrated that I am far from an intellectual poster, so maybe you should edit it to whatever you think is accurate.

;)

tredigs
03-12-2018, 06:09 PM
Yup, absolutely. They'll have to play with some urgency down the stretch. Uncharted territory for the franchise

I'm following closely and somewhat reluctantly rooting for them because I think this has the potential to be the most stacked playoffs in history on the Western side. I think they get there, but yeah, it's a battle.

valade16
03-12-2018, 06:14 PM
Hehe ... 5% is infinitely more than the 0% most were giving before, and the 5% was for the Warriors OR the Rockets to lose before the conference finals, which is not the same thing as just the Warriors losing. The odds of one or the other losing is FAR higher.

Actually statistically the odds of saying only the Warriors will lose before the WCF is lower than saying "Either the Rockets or the Warriors will lose before the WCF" because you are cutting the number of teams that could lose in half. The odds of one of 2 teams losing is higher than the odds of only one of them losing.

And as the OP said, 5% was not an official percentage, he was clearly annotating that the chances of either losing before the WCF is remote, so remote in fact he actually clarified his position:

Alright. Maybe I should have phrased it "who can push a series to 6/7"?"


Bottom line: even the guy you're saying is giving someone a chance of beating the Warriors doesn't seem to give anyone much of a chance of beating the Warriors (besides the Rockets).

The idea that a bunch of people were adamant the Warriors couldn't be beaten and are suddenly taking the proposition seriously is just a flawed premise, the vast majority of NBA fans (and oddsmakers, etc.) still have the Warriors as the best team in the league and the odds on favorite to win the title.

Heediot
03-12-2018, 06:20 PM
I think people forget just how good the Spurs have been the last couple years (67 and 61 games won respectively) because of the turrible shell of themselves they've been this year, with Kawhi being our of course and a bunch of other injuries. These guys were pretty darn good, and record wise last year they were at 51-14 at this time, which is right on par with what Houston/GS are doing.

14 games (if Kawhi returns Thursday) is a super small time to get acclimated and gel, but anything is possible; especially if he can get back to that MVP level play in about a months time. It's also important that they have no more B2B's scheduled, so that could mean (barring no setbacks) he should/could be penciled in for all remaining games.

Nothing like a little urgency to get into the playoffs. It's usually rest time the last week or so for these guys.

I feel age is a factor this year too. Those legendary Geezers decline a bit each year, it seems like the youngest geezer in Parker is having the biggest decline. I guess he is more reliant on athleticism vs. Pau and Manu.

kdspurman
03-12-2018, 06:48 PM
I feel age is a factor this year too. Those legendary Geezers decline a bit each year, it seems like the youngest geezer in Parker is having the biggest decline. I guess he is more reliant on athleticism vs. Pau and Manu.

Parker has been better in his role off the bench. Going against backups is definitely advantageous for him at this point. He'll have some flashes against elite guys, but it's best for him now.

Those are really the 3 oldest guys, and aren't relied as heavily. It's all about LMA/Kawhi and to a lesser degree, what kind of jump Murray can make. Mills/Green/Bertans are other guys who need to knock down their looks. 3 point shooting has been an issue, and it's not that surprising with Kawhi out, cause he draws a lot of attention.

Vee-Rex
03-12-2018, 06:52 PM
The elephant in the room is the Spurs adding a top 3 player in the NBA next week. A team that had Golden state reeling in the 20 minutes he has played against them in the playoffs. OKC isn't going to beat either team. The Spurs are a team that will likely be a 7 or 8 seed (if they make the playoffs), and that is a nightmare situation. The Pels are a flash in the pan. The Blazers are a super fun team but they are definitely not beating either squad if they're healthy.

I just peeped this. Kawhi is above Durant for you? Interesting. You don't seem to like Durant very much.

Raps08-09 Champ
03-12-2018, 06:53 PM
Spurs if Kawhi comes back and plays at like 80% (which should be at an all star level still).

If Butler comes back healthy enough, I'd give it to the Wolves after the Spurs.

Cal827
03-12-2018, 07:16 PM
San Antonio. A healthy Spurs team won 67 last year, and they're getting Kawhi back soon enough, so the rust might be gone come playoff time. In addition, there's a good chance that they are a lower seed too, and will end up with 6-8th. They also have the experience to knock out Hoston or GSW. It's nuts, but I'd be really worried if I'm one of the two teams if I get them in the first round :laugh2:

Other teams that I could think could cause problems are Portland (Liliard steps his game up against elite PGs/teams, so you know he'd be gunning for Steph and Paul), Minnesota (particularly for GS) and the Rockets themselves (Chris Paul in particular, cause I think that the others would come to play.

Texan_Rocket
03-12-2018, 08:39 PM
Healthy spurs and a hot Pels/Blazers team can definitely upset either team.

KnicksorBust
03-12-2018, 10:18 PM
Blazers will get smacked. I am not assuming health for sas so gotta be OKC. Westy and PG are elite players and they just need a few hot role player games.

Jeffy25
03-12-2018, 11:10 PM
Nobody really

But Spurs with Leonard at 100% aren't a bad team
Clippers are better now, but not good enough
Blazers could create a scare, but it would take some massive luck and lights out shooting. Lillard getting 45 a game etc.
Pelicans don't have enough
OKC has too many holes to actually be a threat
Minny could surprise, but again Wiggins and Towns just aren't there yet.

I'd say it's the odds on favorite that it'll be HOU vs GSW in the WCF unless a surprise happens (major injuries or total upset)

Scoots
03-12-2018, 11:13 PM
I just threw 5% out there. I have clearly demonstrated that I am far from an intellectual poster, so maybe you should edit it to whatever you think is accurate.

;)

I wasn't replying to you. I'm fine with your 5% ... the real numbers should be left to your bookie.

Scoots
03-12-2018, 11:15 PM
Actually statistically the odds of saying only the Warriors will lose before the WCF is lower than saying "Either the Rockets or the Warriors will lose before the WCF" because you are cutting the number of teams that could lose in half. The odds of one of 2 teams losing is higher than the odds of only one of them losing.

And as the OP said, 5% was not an official percentage, he was clearly annotating that the chances of either losing before the WCF is remote, so remote in fact he actually clarified his position:

Alright. Maybe I should have phrased it "who can push a series to 6/7"?"


Bottom line: even the guy you're saying is giving someone a chance of beating the Warriors doesn't seem to give anyone much of a chance of beating the Warriors (besides the Rockets).

The idea that a bunch of people were adamant the Warriors couldn't be beaten and are suddenly taking the proposition seriously is just a flawed premise, the vast majority of NBA fans (and oddsmakers, etc.) still have the Warriors as the best team in the league and the odds on favorite to win the title.

Sure ... I've just been saying they are beatable and people, until recently, have been saying it's impossible for them to lose. It's sports, there is very little that is certain, and heavy favorites lose regularly.

Dade County
03-13-2018, 03:45 AM
Is everyone forgetting how Harden twice just stopped playing in his horrific playoffs exits; while with Houston.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Rockets took an L in the 1st rd. But if harden actually plays, I can see them losing to OKC in 6 in the 2nd rd.

OKC vs GS for the WCF

ewing
03-13-2018, 08:37 AM
Don't see an upset happening. If we are lucky some kind of injury or fight will make things interesting

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 11:07 AM
Is everyone forgetting how Harden twice just stopped playing in his horrific playoffs exits; while with Houston.

I wouldn't be shocked if the Rockets took an L in the 1st rd. But if harden actually plays, I can see them losing to OKC in 6 in the 2nd rd.

OKC vs GS for the WCF

Remind me. Which series' are you talking about? I know you mean last year but when was the other?

What year did the Rockets underperform with Harden as the lead guy? I'll wait because the one year I can think of is by a miraculous buzzer beater to a 5 seed team(rox were 4 seed) with the identical record.

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 12:16 PM
No

Good assessment. You've totally convinced everyone.

WaDe03
03-13-2018, 12:19 PM
We match up well vs the Warriors but I don't see us beating the Rockets at all. They're just better equipped.

Harden>Westbrook
CP3 = PG?
Capela = Adams

And then the shooting just puts the nail in the coffin. Rockets are just loaded and I think we're like one of the worst three point defenders in the league. Honestly, I'm not sure we can even get to the Warriors unless we end up in the 7th seed. We'll definitely lose to the Rockets in 5-6. I'd give Minny the next best chance. They got Butler/KAT and if Wiggins/Teague can give the team around 35-40 points, it should be enough to win a few games. But I think people still haven't given the Rockets enough credit. For all the talk about their playoffs struggles, you can't deny that they are a total animal of a squad this regular season.

No

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 12:19 PM
Remind me. Which series' are you talking about? I know you mean last year but when was the other?

What year did the Rockets underperform with Harden as the lead guy? I'll wait because the one year I can think of is by a miraculous buzzer beater to a 5 seed team(rox were 4 seed) with the identical record.

Game 6 vs Spurs 2017. That was all I needed to label Harden a playoffs failure that season. And it should be enough. No Kawhi and Harden absolutely disappeared. This was supposed to be the game where Rockets and Spurs go to game 7 and with Kawhi being still injured, no one knew how it would have played out. Yet, Harden did not show up. In possibly the biggest game of his career with everyone fully expecting a game 7, he was not there.

Also not in Houston but that OKC Finals vs Heat was an absolute choke by Harden. I have no idea what he was doing in that series.

WaDe03
03-13-2018, 12:26 PM
No

It wasn't needed, it's clear as day.

Vinylman
03-13-2018, 12:26 PM
Yup, absolutely. They'll have to play with some urgency down the stretch. Uncharted territory for the franchise

don't worry ... they will miss the playoffs have like a 1% chance at the top pick and win the lottery and then select a 20 year HOF type player...

WaDe03
03-13-2018, 12:26 PM
reportedly hitting a lot of strip clubs

And getting locked up by Wade.

Vinylman
03-13-2018, 12:27 PM
Game 6 vs Spurs 2017. That was all I needed to label Harden a playoffs failure that season. And it should be enough. No Kawhi and Harden absolutely disappeared. This was supposed to be the game where Rockets and Spurs go to game 7 and with Kawhi being still injured, no one knew how it would have played out. Yet, Harden did not show up. In possibly the biggest game of his career with everyone fully expecting a game 7, he was not there.

Also not in Houston but that OKC Finals vs Heat was an absolute choke by Harden. I have no idea what he was doing in that series.

reportedly hitting a lot of strip clubs

Vinylman
03-13-2018, 12:28 PM
Sure ... I've just been saying they are beatable and people, until recently, have been saying it's impossible for them to lose. It's sports, there is very little that is certain, and heavy favorites lose regularly.

barring injury they really aren't beatable... all teams at full strength I would put GS at 99.4%

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 12:30 PM
It wasn't needed, it's clear as day.

I'll take it you don't have any arguments to be made.

GREATNESS ONE
03-13-2018, 12:35 PM
Rockets will crumble in the playoffs.

WaDe03
03-13-2018, 12:52 PM
I'll take it you don't have any arguments to be made.

Other than CP3 being better on offense, arguably defense, being far more efficient, and having a much higher impact on the game....no I don't. These are 2 of my favorite players but it's easily Paul.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 12:52 PM
Game 6 vs Spurs 2017. That was all I needed to label Harden a playoffs failure that season. And it should be enough. No Kawhi and Harden absolutely disappeared. This was supposed to be the game where Rockets and Spurs go to game 7 and with Kawhi being still injured, no one knew how it would have played out. Yet, Harden did not show up. In possibly the biggest game of his career with everyone fully expecting a game 7, he was not there.

Also not in Houston but that OKC Finals vs Heat was an absolute choke by Harden. I have no idea what he was doing in that series.

Yeah, he mentioned twice on the Rockets.
He had a horrific game. He had 11 points and 7 assists on 2 for 11 shooting. Let's take a look at his teammates.

Capela- 3/11 15 points
Beverley 3/6 7 points
Gordon 2/9 6 points
Anderson 0/6 0 points!
Lou Will 3/7 8 points

If Harden hits 4 more 3s for 6/11 shooting with 24 points, is this a convo? No. It's because he looked disinterested and dazed but let's not act like EVERYONE (besides Ariza) that game was TRASH. Context matters. Rox last year were a flawed team with ONE main creator and he had a bad game. I'm not going to let ONE bad performance dictate how I see a player.

Harden was a 23 year old in that Heat finals matchup. I put zero weight into that finals when they keyed in on him and without him they don't get past the Spurs in that WCF that year.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 12:54 PM
Rockets will crumble in the playoffs.

If by crumble, you mean lose to a team that is historical and better, then yeah, I agree they will "crumble".

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 12:55 PM
Yeah, he mentioned twice on the Rockets.
He had a horrific game. He had 11 points and 7 assists on 2 for 11 shooting. Let's take a look at his teammates.

Capela- 3/11 15 points
Beverley 3/6 7 points
Gordon 2/9 6 points
Anderson 0/6 0 points!
Lou Will 3/7 8 points

If Harden hits 4 more 3s for 6/11 shooting with 24 points, is this a convo? No. It's because he looked disinterested and dazed but let's not act like EVERYONE (besides Ariza) that game was TRASH. Context matters. Rox last year were a flawed team with ONE main creator and he had a bad game. I'm not going to let ONE bad performance dictate how I see a player.

Harden was a 23 year old in that Heat finals matchup. I put zero weight into that finals when they keyed in on him and without him they don't get past the Spurs in that WCF that year.

If Harden is to be regarded as the superstar, then he should be put on the same spotlight as guys like LeBron, Curry, KD, etc., Let's be honest here: Harden is a top ten NBA player and easily top five if you want to make that case as well. He has been top ten for over three years. The guy simply has to start showing up in the playoffs. He's been terrible at it when needed. That OKC series, sorry, I still blame him. They didn't key in on him.. he just didn't look interested at all. He helped us vs Spurs but again, if you want to be treated as one of the best, you will get placed on a pedestal that the best get treated. LeBron has dealt with much worse.

Also, Harden in 14-15 was terrible vs the Warriors.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 02:05 PM
If Harden is to be regarded as the superstar, then he should be put on the same spotlight as guys like LeBron, Curry, KD, etc., Let's be honest here: Harden is a top ten NBA player and easily top five if you want to make that case as well. He has been top ten for over three years. The guy simply has to start showing up in the playoffs. He's been terrible at it when needed. That OKC series, sorry, I still blame him. They didn't key in on him.. he just didn't look interested at all. He helped us vs Spurs but again, if you want to be treated as one of the best, you will get placed on a pedestal that the best get treated. LeBron has dealt with much worse.

Also, Harden in 14-15 was terrible vs the Warriors.

Yeah but look at how he's played in the playoffs. He's had good games and bad. His numbers aren't far off from other stars but when you take the ESPN approach and narrative you only remember what the last game was instead of looking at the entire story.

He was crap game 6. But he lost to a higher seed team. The entire squad was bad. 14-15 they lost to a higher seed. That's what was supposed to happen. It's like harden was supposed to will crappy teams past superior teams for you guys to not **** on him. Be reasonable.

COOLbeans
03-13-2018, 02:09 PM
I just peeped this. Kawhi is above Durant for you? Interesting. You don't seem to like Durant very much.

Curry is better than Harden.

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 03:10 PM
Yeah but look at how he's played in the playoffs. He's had good games and bad. His numbers aren't far off from other stars but when you take the ESPN approach and narrative you only remember what the last game was instead of looking at the entire story.

He was crap game 6. But he lost to a higher seed team. The entire squad was bad. 14-15 they lost to a higher seed. That's what was supposed to happen. It's like harden was supposed to will crappy teams past superior teams for you guys to not **** on him. Be reasonable.

I am being reasonable - you aren't. You want be treated as one of the best, you get crucified as if you're one of the best. Harden didn't perform. I'm not sure why you're arguing that when most Rockets fans would agree with that. No, Harden wasn't supposed to carry his team to beat the Warriors three years ago but that was an entirely different Warriors team in terms of difficulty. Harden pooped the bed in games 3/5 vs the Warriors three years ago. Games 2/6 vs Spurs, again, two very bad performances. Games 1/2/4 vs Warriors in 2015/16, bad performances as well. And this is a Harden who disappeared in the NBA Finals vs Miami. Yes, a long time ago but no one can still explain why he sucked that bad. When you consider that we lost some of those games by just 6 points, if Harden had shown up just a bit more, we'd likely see a more competitive NBA Finals in terms of it possibly going to seven games. I don't expect him to win but he had bad games. Trying to excuse him of those games by saying he had inferior teammates or that they were a lower seed is laughable. I can use that excuse for many NBA superstars who have underperformed. LeBron never got to use that as an excuse so if Harden wants to be put on the pedestal of best player in the NBA, he should be judged accordingly.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 03:10 PM
Curry is better than Harden.

LeBron is better than Curry.

Driven
03-13-2018, 03:36 PM
I don't think that Harden, Paul or D'Antoni "choking" in the past is the problem.

A lot of teams "choke".

The Warriors "choked" up 3-1 versus the Cavs in the finals and lost. That same year, the 67 win Spurs lost in the season lost in the second round. The 67 win Dallas Mavericks lost in the first round of the playoffs 11 years ago. The 66 win Cavs lost in the Eastern Conference Finals to the 59 win Orlando Magic in 2009.

The difference between these teams and Harden, Paul and D'Antoni is that these teams either had already proven themselves as winners or would go on to prove themselves as winners eventually.

In today's NBA, you are a loser or a choker until you become a winner. Even if you weren't on teams good enough to win the finals, or if your opponent is just better than you.

I do think that Harden, Paul and D'Antoni get a bad rep when it comes to playoff basketball. Realistically, these guys were never on the best teams. There were moments when it seemed the Clippers could make a run, but they didn't end up doing it. I think Harden, on the Rockets at least, has done well enough in the playoffs. But none of these three are "winners".

Until they win, people are not going to think otherwise.

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 03:42 PM
I don't think that Harden, Paul or D'Antoni "choking" in the past is the problem.

A lot of teams "choke".

The Warriors "choked" up 3-1 versus the Cavs in the finals and lost. That same year, the 67 win Spurs lost in the season lost in the second round. The 67 win Dallas Mavericks lost in the first round of the playoffs 11 years ago. The 66 win Cavs lost in the Eastern Conference Finals to the 59 win Orlando Magic in 2009.

The difference between these teams and Harden, Paul and D'Antoni is that these teams either had already proven themselves as winners or would go on to prove themselves as winners eventually.

In today's NBA, you are a loser or a choker until you become a winner. Even if you weren't on teams good enough to win the finals, or if your opponent is just better than you.

I do think that Harden, Paul and D'Antoni get a bad rep when it comes to playoff basketball. Realistically, these guys were never on the best teams. There were moments when it seemed the Clippers could make a run, but they didn't end up doing it. I think Harden, on the Rockets at least, has done well enough in the playoffs. But none of these three are "winners".

Until they win, people are not going to think otherwise.

One or two few bad games. Even a series. = Whatever.

Consistency of choking = choking.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 04:42 PM
One or two few bad games. Even a series. = Whatever.

Consistency of choking = choking.

Player A: 27/7/6 41/32/88 58%ts CHOKER!

Player B: 25/8/7 42/29/84 52%ts MVP! LOOK AT HOW HE WILLS HIS TEAMMATES!

Player C: 26/7/6 45/41/89 61%ts ERMAGHAD! GOAT!

All in playoffs.

Also, "Harden didn't perform. I'm not sure why you're arguing that when most Rockets fans would agree with that."

That's not what I was arguing at all. I was asking of the 2 instances on the Rockets that Harden "choked."

Vee-Rex
03-13-2018, 04:51 PM
Curry is better than Harden.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/210/119/9b3.png

valade16
03-13-2018, 05:08 PM
Player A: 27/7/6 41/32/88 58%ts CHOKER!

Player B: 25/8/7 42/29/84 52%ts MVP! LOOK AT HOW HE WILLS HIS TEAMMATES!

Player C: 26/7/6 45/41/89 61%ts ERMAGHAD! GOAT!

All in playoffs.

Also, "Harden didn't perform. I'm not sure why you're arguing that when most Rockets fans would agree with that."

That's not what I was arguing at all. I was asking of the 2 instances on the Rockets that Harden "choked."

Not sure who Player B but I surmise Player A is Harden with Houston. Player C is Curry overall, which is odd you used Curry's entire playoff career but only part of Harden's. If you look at Curry's playoffs since he became NBA caliber you see the massive disparity in impact:

Player A: 27/7/6 .580 TS% 23.0 PER, .153 WS/48, 6.3 BPM

Player C: 27/6/5 .621 TS% 24.6 PER, .218 WS/48, 8.6 BPM


Curry has vastly outplayed Harden in the playoffs, and Curry has also been accused of underperforming in the playoffs, and he still crushes him.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 05:13 PM
Not sure who Player B but I surmise Player A is Harden with Houston. Player C is Curry overall, which is odd you used Curry's entire playoff career but only part of Harden's. If you look at Curry's playoffs since he became NBA caliber you see the massive disparity in impact:

Player A: 27/7/6 .580 TS% 23.0 PER, .153 WS/48, 6.3 BPM

Player C: 27/6/5 .621 TS% 24.6 PER, .218 WS/48, 8.6 BPM


Curry has vastly outplayed Harden in the playoffs, and Curry has also been accused of underperforming in the playoffs, and he still crushes him.

You're right that Curry has outplayed Harden in the playoffs but my point was that ppl just run with narratives they see fit. Curry has been better than Harden in playoffs. No one is arguing against that.

Also, I used Curry the entire time he was in GS vs when he became ALL TIME pg curry.
I used Harden's time in Houston because THAT was my original point. Not his role off the bench as a 6th man.

Player B was Westbrook.

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 08:25 PM
Player A: 27/7/6 41/32/88 58%ts CHOKER!

Player B: 25/8/7 42/29/84 52%ts MVP! LOOK AT HOW HE WILLS HIS TEAMMATES!

Player C: 26/7/6 45/41/89 61%ts ERMAGHAD! GOAT!

All in playoffs.

Also, "Harden didn't perform. I'm not sure why you're arguing that when most Rockets fans would agree with that."

That's not what I was arguing at all. I was asking of the 2 instances on the Rockets that Harden "choked."

Why do we look at averages when it's all about performances in a game? You have two bad playoff games and you're the best player on your team, most likely your team comes out as a loser unless the other team also has bad games. So I'm not sure why you try and put some averages up and ignore the numerous 10-15 point games on below 20% shooting Harden has had. Listen, dude. Harden is a superb player. We can all agree that he could very well have 3x MVP right now. But the fact is, the dude has underperformed in the playoffs. If you are trying to argue that he hasn't, you are just being biased.

Htownballa1622
03-13-2018, 08:38 PM
Why do we look at averages when it's all about performances in a game? You have two bad playoff games and you're the best player on your team, most likely your team comes out as a loser unless the other team also has bad games. So I'm not sure why you try and put some averages up and ignore the numerous 10-15 point games on below 20% shooting Harden has had. Listen, dude. Harden is a superb player. We can all agree that he could very well have 3x MVP right now. But the fact is, the dude has underperformed in the playoffs. If you are trying to argue that he hasn't, you are just being biased.

I think he has underperforming games but I won't say he's underperformed as a total. Every year he's lost to a higher seed that he's been on the rockets. (Sans blazers.9)

FlashBolt
03-13-2018, 08:40 PM
I think he has underperforming games but I won't say he's underperformed as a total. Every year he's lost to a higher seed that he's been on the rockets. (Sans blazers.9)

No one is expecting him to win those series. Actually, the Spurs one I did expect him to win considering Kawhi was injured but the fact is, you can't have two bad playoffs games in a series time after time and not expect to get called out for it. 2/4 games. Do you think Rockets beat the Warriors if Harden starts shooting 2/13 or 3/16 in the playoffs this season? No. We all know they would get pounded. Two bad games from your star player is enough for a team to knock you off. He just has to play well. No one has been giving LeBron any trashtalk even though he loses because he shows up. How do you hate a player if he shows up? You can't.

ewing
03-14-2018, 11:56 AM
LeBron is better than Curry.

Bird was better then LeBron


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FlashBolt
03-14-2018, 12:21 PM
Bird was better then LeBron


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Yeah, if you're a hater.

Htownballa1622
03-14-2018, 01:00 PM
Bird was better then LeBron


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:laugh2:

Yeah, NO.

Vee-Rex
03-14-2018, 01:08 PM
Bird was better then LeBron


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I think Bird has been underrated but no, not better than 'Bron.

Dade County
03-15-2018, 01:17 AM
Remind me. Which series' are you talking about? I know you mean last year but when was the other?

What year did the Rockets underperform with Harden as the lead guy? I'll wait because the one year I can think of is by a miraculous buzzer beater to a 5 seed team(rox were 4 seed) with the identical record.

Sorry,

I don't really check up on post, like I should lol...

Of course we know he didnít show up against the Spurs in game 6. Throw away game/series.

But Iím talking about when he faced the Warriors, and didnít even try. What I mean by that is, he didnít even TRY lol

He conceded, he gave up, he didnít attempt his normal shots, and he was very much passive as the game went on.

Game 5 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1pEjT4mQIU


https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/james-harden-choke-rockets-spurs-game-6-nba-playoffs-stats-contract-mvp-051117

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEL0qdwBLns

2015 Game 5

Harden Stats

43min, 12 turnovers
14pts, 2-11 for the game.

You can go back and find the articles and vids yourself.

ewing
03-15-2018, 06:47 AM
I think Bird has been underrated but no, not better than 'Bron.

Bron has had better career with a peak that seems endless. Bird was better at peak

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ewing
03-15-2018, 06:48 AM
Yeah, if you're a hater.

Youíre the one that is bias.


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FlashBolt
03-15-2018, 08:19 AM
Youíre the one that is bias.


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You accuse bias but you have no evidence that suggests Bird's peak was greater. So if you want to discuss, do so. If not, just disappear. Like you always do.

ewing
03-15-2018, 10:10 AM
You accuse bias but you have no evidence that suggests Bird's peak was greater. So if you want to discuss, do so. If not, just disappear. Like you always do.

Itís an opinion. Certainly there is an agruement for a guy that won 3 consecutive mvps just like there is one for Bron. You are the one that is clearly a homer and not worth discussing it with bc you said one opinion can only be ďhateĒ

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rhino17
03-15-2018, 10:26 AM
LOL, people act like Harden hasn't already taken the Rockets to the WCF. He has accomplished everything anyone else in the western conference has over the past few years in the playoff outside of the Warriors. He has a terrible game last season, calling him a perennial choker is simply a lie.


I dont think anyone beats the Rox/warriors. I'm not sure either will even lose a game until they face eachother

FlashBolt
03-15-2018, 11:08 AM
LOL, people act like Harden hasn't already taken the Rockets to the WCF. He has accomplished everything anyone else in the western conference has over the past few years in the playoff outside of the Warriors. He has a terrible game last season, calling him a perennial choker is simply a lie.


I dont think anyone beats the Rox/warriors. I'm not sure either will even lose a game until they face eachother

You willing to admit that CP3 on this team was a good move? I remember you complaining about it.

valade16
03-15-2018, 12:13 PM
Itís an opinion. Certainly there is an agruement for a guy that won 3 consecutive mvps just like there is one for Bron. You are the one that is clearly a homer and not worth discussing it with bc you said one opinion can only be ďhateĒ

Yeah Bird won 3 straight MVPs but LeBron won 4 in 5 years and you could argue the only reason he didn't win the 5th one was because people didn't want to vote for him due to hating him for going to the Heat.

valade16
03-15-2018, 12:15 PM
LOL, people act like Harden hasn't already taken the Rockets to the WCF. He has accomplished everything anyone else in the western conference has over the past few years in the playoff outside of the Warriors. He has a terrible game last season, calling him a perennial choker is simply a lie.

I dont think anyone beats the Rox/warriors. I'm not sure either will even lose a game until they face eachother

And consider that his 'best' accomplishment and primary argument against him being a choker was because he sat on the bench while his backups led a massive comeback vs the Clippers.

If anything, the Rockets managing to win game 7 that year and go to the WCF is the strongest argument against him not being a choker. His backups did what he could not.

rhino17
03-15-2018, 12:16 PM
And consider that his 'best' accomplishment and primary argument against him being a choker was because he sat on the bench while his backups led a massive comeback vs the Clippers.

If anything, the Rockets managing to win game 7 that year and go to the WCF is the strongest argument against him not being a choker. His backups did what he could not.

Yet who led the team in scoring that night? And who sealed the deal in game 7?

FlashBolt
03-15-2018, 12:17 PM
Yet who led the team in scoring that night? And who sealed the deal in game 7?

That's a poor argument. Harden will almost always lead the Rockets in scoring off FT's and number of possessions. That doesn't mean he didn't have a bad game. The guy has a reputation for underperforming and when the series is decided by four wins, two bad games from your star player is enough to cost your team the series. LeBron learned that the hard way and was belittled for much more despite playing better than Harden has in some of the series. I'm not sure why you guys are so uptight about the truth. Harden is a top five NBA player but he has had some serious playoff blunders that is difficult to argue against. That game 6 vs the Spurs was an absolute joke. Any other premier athlete would get crucified even worse. "LeBron loses to Kawhi-less Spurs." If Harden is to be viewed as one of the best, he should be held to the same standards.

FlashBolt
03-15-2018, 12:31 PM
Itís an opinion. Certainly there is an agruement for a guy that won 3 consecutive mvps just like there is one for Bron. You are the one that is clearly a homer and not worth discussing it with bc you said one opinion can only be ďhateĒ

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Nash won two MVP's consecutively. Curry won two MVP's consecutively.

Nash>Curry.

Have a legitimate debate. MVP's? Lol.

ewing
03-15-2018, 12:31 PM
Yeah Bird won 3 straight MVPs but LeBron won 4 in 5 years and you could argue the only reason he didn't win the 5th one was because people didn't want to vote for him due to hating him for going to the Heat.

Exactly, they are both all time greats. That had a stretch of dominance. The idea that one was clearly better then the other at peak is wrong.


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ewing
03-15-2018, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]




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valade16
03-15-2018, 12:37 PM
Yet who led the team in scoring that night? And who sealed the deal in game 7?

He led the team in scoring because he took 20 shots (only making 7 btw) and 18 FTs. He also had 7 Turnovers. And of course, he had to be benched for them to come back and win the game.

If your argument is somehow that getting benched in a pivotal game 7 is somehow a good night for him because he dropped 30 points, we have fundamentally different beliefs about what having a good night means.

kobe4thewinbang
03-15-2018, 05:40 PM
The Blazers are surprisingly on a roll. Not sure what's going on as they looked like crap last year and this year too. They're a bunch of gunners so they could get in a shootout with Houston. The Spurs are mostly worried about Kawhi being able to help them and making the playoffs to start with (not looking good at the moment). Timberwolves, not sure if Butler is able to play soon, but KAT's been on a roll. Also, Anthony Davis and Rondo are making noise in N'awlins; not sure if they can get to the second round, but matchups are key. Seeding is very important. I still think it's going to be Golden State vs Houston, but I hope the Warriors injury concerns fade and the Rockets don't get any, lol. OKC I don't see as a real threat; just too inconsistent and can't shoot unless Westbrook has that look in his eye or PG goes off again. Melo's been trash, honestly, for the most part. Losing Roberson doesn't help either. Harden would annihilate them.

rhino17
03-15-2018, 06:50 PM
He led the team in scoring because he took 20 shots (only making 7 btw) and 18 FTs. He also had 7 Turnovers. And of course, he had to be benched for them to come back and win the game.

If your argument is somehow that getting benched in a pivotal game 7 is somehow a good night for him because he dropped 30 points, we have fundamentally different beliefs about what having a good night means.

That wasn't a game 7

Vee-Rex
03-15-2018, 07:01 PM
Someone tweeted out how remarkably similar the standings were in both conferences. I'll recap real quick:

1. HOU/TOR - most success so far this year, both needing to prove it can transfer to a playoff finals birth

2. GS/BOS - wrecked with injuries, but still maintaining a solid grip on the second seed.

3. POR/IND - shocking everyone by being 3rd seed since no one expected it. Have been on fire lately.

4. OKC/CLE - very inconsistent seasons, but both can be dangerous in the playoffs.

JasonJohnHorn
03-15-2018, 08:41 PM
So, when I said early in the offseason that the Warriors could be beaten people were so quick to say there was no chance the Warriors lose. Now suddenly there is a chance ... any team can lose and some team usually does lose when favored, even heavily favored.

At this point we don't even know who will make the playoffs, let alone what their health will be like in the playoffs ... tough to predict when there is so much we don't know.

I think most people undersld the CP3 Rockets (myself included). I anticipated chemistry issues between Harden and CP3, especially given how hard CP3 works on D and that D'Antoni is notoriously bad for D.

But that apparently hasn't bene an issue.


So, the Rockets have a chance, but I'd still put the Warriors as heavy favorite is healthy.


CP3 and Harden have to play above their average every night and their teammates need to hit their shots. It is a very slim margin of error.

For the Warriors... if Cury r KD have an off night, they still got Klay who can go off. They have three guys who have the ability to post a James-Harden-big-game scoring total. So every night in a series, they got three guys who can have that big scoring night. The Rockets only have one.

That is an oversimplification, of course, but it is something to consider.

That said... it seems, if you predicted it so, that your early-season prjection was correct and the Warriors are fallible, but they are still heavy favorites.

If a team could spoil the Houston/GSW WCF, it would be a team that beat the Rockets.

The T-Wolves and Thunder each have a couple of guys who can go off for a big night. The Pels have a big that might match up well against what the Rockets have. There are vulnerabiltiies there, but I think only enough to make a series out of it, but not beat the Rockets. AD doesn't have enough support, T-Wolves don't have enough expeirence, and the Thunder... well... they play well against poor teams, but have been inconsistent against good teams.

If Butler plays well, and the Rockets can't cover Townes, they may make it interesting.

Barring injury, I'd put my money on a HOU/GSW WCF.

ewing
03-15-2018, 09:56 PM
I think most people undersld the CP3 Rockets (myself included). I anticipated chemistry issues between Harden and CP3, especially given how hard CP3 works on D and that D'Antoni is notoriously bad for D.

But that apparently hasn't bene an issue.


So, the Rockets have a chance, but I'd still put the Warriors as heavy favorite is healthy.


CP3 and Harden have to play above their average every night and their teammates need to hit their shots. It is a very slim margin of error.

For the Warriors... if Cury r KD have an off night, they still got Klay who can go off. They have three guys who have the ability to post a James-Harden-big-game scoring total. So every night in a series, they got three guys who can have that big scoring night. The Rockets only have one.

That is an oversimplification, of course, but it is something to consider.

That said... it seems, if you predicted it so, that your early-season prjection was correct and the Warriors are fallible, but they are still heavy favorites.

If a team could spoil the Houston/GSW WCF, it would be a team that beat the Rockets.

The T-Wolves and Thunder each have a couple of guys who can go off for a big night. The Pels have a big that might match up well against what the Rockets have. There are vulnerabiltiies there, but I think only enough to make a series out of it, but not beat the Rockets. AD doesn't have enough support, T-Wolves don't have enough expeirence, and the Thunder... well... they play well against poor teams, but have been inconsistent against good teams.

If Butler plays well, and the Rockets can't cover Townes, they may make it interesting.

Barring injury, I'd put my money on a HOU/GSW WCF.

I think most people thought it was a good fit. I even think you made a thread where you said it wasn't and most people were like no its a good fit

tredigs
03-16-2018, 12:32 AM
Someone tweeted out how remarkably similar the standings were in both conferences. I'll recap real quick:

1. HOU/TOR - most success so far this year, both needing to prove it can transfer to a playoff finals birth

2. GS/BOS - wrecked with injuries, but still maintaining a solid grip on the second seed.

3. POR/IND - shocking everyone by being 3rd seed since no one expected it. Have been on fire lately.

4. OKC/CLE - very inconsistent seasons, but both can be dangerous in the playoffs.

Lol maybe from a surface level storyline standpoint, but as far as objective measures/reality go, once again a massive chasm.

Vee-Rex
03-16-2018, 12:37 AM
Lol maybe from a surface level storyline standpoint, but as far as objective measures/reality go, once again a massive chasm.

Definitely more from a storyline standpoint and not an actual comparison between the teams.