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valade16
03-08-2018, 02:23 PM
So we do a ďtop 25 greatest players of all-time listĒ here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille OíNeal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant
16. Jerry West
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Kevin Garnett
20. Dirk Nowitzki

GREATNESS ONE
03-08-2018, 02:34 PM
Barkley

Shammyguy3
03-08-2018, 03:51 PM
I second Barkley

ewing
03-08-2018, 04:09 PM
Itís time to go Ewing


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Chronz
03-08-2018, 04:35 PM
Chuck. Book this one

YAALREADYKNO
03-08-2018, 04:36 PM
Charles The Bark Man Barkley

valade16
03-08-2018, 04:40 PM
Since this seems to be near unanimous for Charles Barkley, the list is getting pretty short, who else do people nominate?

ewing
03-08-2018, 04:53 PM
Since this seems to be near unanimous for Charles Barkley, the list is getting pretty short, who else do people nominate?

Kidd and Nash should be on the list. Maybe Grant Hill


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Chronz
03-08-2018, 05:05 PM
Shut it down.


Best of the next up

Best pg
Cp3 easy on a list like this but Stockton has a case too

Best sg
Drexler

Best sf
Barry easy

Best pf
Kevin McHale had that mvp caliber year with 4 years around that level. Pettit is Dirk lite
I will understand a vote for Karl Malone but which years?

Best center
Russell or Drob . Russell would be the best defender in any era that didn't include hakeem

Chronz
03-08-2018, 05:10 PM
We should've defined peak better because the more I think about it, a guy like rwb can reach the highest of highs but he never maintains it. I've been voting based on like 1.5 year stretches.

Chronz
03-08-2018, 05:11 PM
Julius should be going soon too

Redrum187
03-08-2018, 05:19 PM
I would like to nominate Kawhi Leonard. In a 3 year peak, the dude has 2DPOY and put up over 20 points a game, great rebounder as well. If we look at his playoff numbers, Kawhi is in the rare category to actually up his game. His 3 year peak playoff numbers are pretty insane.

I'm not sure who to vote for in this poll... I feel David Robinson is being underrated... but Malone has a case, as well as Barkley. I'm not sure...

Chronz
03-08-2018, 05:41 PM
I would like to nominate Kawhi Leonard. In a 3 year peak, the dude has 2DPOY and put up over 20 points a game, great rebounder as well. If we look at his playoff numbers, Kawhi is in the rare category to actually up his game. His 3 year peak playoff numbers are pretty insane.

I'm not sure who to vote for in this poll... I feel David Robinson is being underrated... but Malone has a case, as well as Barkley. I'm not sure...

A hard sell when you got dick Barry who led his undermanned squad to a title but it was a lg with more parity and not too many pantheon guys. You still doc, Pippen looms as a superior prototype save for maybe last year but it seems like we need more peak burn from kawhi


Nvm just realized your just nominating

KnicksorBust
03-08-2018, 05:57 PM
Shut it down.


Best of the next up

Best pg
Cp3 easy on a list like this but Stockton has a case too

Best sg
Drexler

Best sf
Barry easy

Best pf
Kevin McHale had that mvp caliber year with 4 years around that level. Pettit is Dirk lite
I will understand a vote for Karl Malone but which years?

Best center
Russell or Drob . Russell would be the best defender in any era that didn't include hakeem

Drexler or Harden?

Bostonjorge
03-08-2018, 06:09 PM
Barkley for sure.

I nominate Isiah Thomas.

Shammyguy3
03-08-2018, 06:10 PM
Shut it down.


Best of the next up

Best pg
Cp3 easy on a list like this but Stockton has a case too
Gary Payton

Best sg
Drexler
James Harden

Best sf
Barry easy

Best pf
Kevin McHale had that mvp caliber year with 4 years around that level. Pettit is Dirk lite
I will understand a vote for Karl Malone but which years?

Best center
Russell or Drob . Russell would be the best defender in any era that didn't include hakeem

My additional players for nominations

Shammyguy3
03-08-2018, 06:14 PM
Drexler or Harden?

Harden

Drexler 2 best years: 27/7/6 117 ORtg, .202 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 14.5 VORP, 23.8 PER, 55.9ts% 22.8ast% 11.2tov% 27.6usg%
Harden 2 best years: 30/10/7 119 ORtg, 0.266 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 15.7 VORP, 28.5 pER, 61.8ts% 48.3ast% 17.6tov% 34.9usg%


The only thing Drexler beats Harden at is turnover rate, which is totally off-set by the playmaking Harden does for teammates

valade16
03-08-2018, 06:43 PM
Harden

Drexler 2 best years: 27/7/6 117 ORtg, .202 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 14.5 VORP, 23.8 PER, 55.9ts% 22.8ast% 11.2tov% 27.6usg%
Harden 2 best years: 30/10/7 119 ORtg, 0.266 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 15.7 VORP, 28.5 pER, 61.8ts% 48.3ast% 17.6tov% 34.9usg%

The only thing Drexler beats Harden at is turnover rate, which is totally off-set by the playmaking Harden does for teammates

But is Harden's statistical success partly a byproduct of this era? Consider that when it comes to the playoffs, Harden performs noticeably worse than his regular season numbers (this is only his Houston stats):

27.3 PPG | 5.6 RPG | 7.1 APG | 41.3 FG% | 33.2 3PT% | 112 Ortg | .153 WS/48 | 6.3 BPM | 22.5 PER | .579 TS% | 33.3 AST% | 16.5 TO% | 31.1 USG%

He is worse (in some cases drastically) across the board.

KnicksorBust
03-08-2018, 06:52 PM
Harden

Drexler 2 best years: 27/7/6 117 ORtg, .202 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 14.5 VORP, 23.8 PER, 55.9ts% 22.8ast% 11.2tov% 27.6usg%
Harden 2 best years: 30/10/7 119 ORtg, 0.266 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 15.7 VORP, 28.5 pER, 61.8ts% 48.3ast% 17.6tov% 34.9usg%

The only thing Drexler beats Harden at is turnover rate, which is totally off-set by the playmaking Harden does for teammates

But is Harden's statistical success partly a byproduct of this era? Consider that when it comes to the playoffs, Harden performs noticeably worse than his regular season numbers (this is only his Houston stats):

27.3 PPG | 5.6 RPG | 7.1 APG | 41.3 FG% | 33.2 3PT% | 112 Ortg | .153 WS/48 | 6.3 BPM | 22.5 PER | .579 TS% | 33.3 AST% | 16.5 TO% | 31.1 USG%

He is worse (in some cases drastically) across the board.

You woke up tomorrow tho and had to pick a team would you real pick glide over the beard?

Barkley here btw but from the way people talking I dont even need to vote.

I am totally cool with Kawhi and Harden being added to the poll.

valade16
03-08-2018, 06:55 PM
You woke up tomorrow tho and had to pick a team would you real pick glide over the beard?

Barkley here btw but from the way people talking I dont even need to vote.

I am totally cool with Kawhi and Harden being added to the poll.

I honestly don't know. I'm leaning Harden just because I think he will prove himself in the playoffs before his career is over. But I saw him first hand when they faced Portland and when he gets bodied he all but disappears.

Chronz
03-08-2018, 07:30 PM
Drexler or Harden?
Why Harden? I need to see one series from him that eclipses entire playoff runs from drexler.

Chronz
03-08-2018, 07:33 PM
But is Harden's statistical success partly a byproduct of this era? Consider that when it comes to the playoffs, Harden performs noticeably worse than his regular season numbers (this is only his Houston stats):

27.3 PPG | 5.6 RPG | 7.1 APG | 41.3 FG% | 33.2 3PT% | 112 Ortg | .153 WS/48 | 6.3 BPM | 22.5 PER | .579 TS% | 33.3 AST% | 16.5 TO% | 31.1 USG%

He is worse (in some cases drastically) across the board.

Not only that but looking at his lone playoff success, it's basically built on beating an imploding Mavs team with zero defense. Look at harden in his real series of tests, he's faded too hard for me to drool over his regular season brilliance.

GREATNESS ONE
03-08-2018, 07:48 PM
Why Harden? I need to see one series from him that eclipses entire playoff runs from drexler.

You wonít.... itís gon Ben bad this year when he doesnít get the phantom calls and quits on his team again, only to be up in the strip club at night.

ChiSox219
03-08-2018, 07:57 PM
I gotta go Chris Paul, you know he is going to orchestra a top tier offense and unlike Chuck, CP3 will bring it on the defensive end

NO Flash
03-08-2018, 10:12 PM
I'll start with my "Top 40" with 8 five man teams and coach based within roughly on a decade of their prime.
Then I'll cut it down to 25

1 - Coach Red Auerbach
Russell
Pettit
Baylor
West
Robertson

2 - Coach Red Holzman
Chamberlain
Havlicek
Barry
Frazier
Maravich

3 - Coach Larry Brown
Jabbar
Cowens
Erving
Gervin
Magic Johnson

4 - Coach Pat Riley
M Malone
Bird
McHale
Drexler
Isiah Thomas

5 - Coach Phil Jackson
Olajuwon
K Malone
Barkley
Jordan
Stockton

6 - Coach Chuck Daly
Robinson
Wilkins
Worthy
Payton
Kidd

7 - Coach Greg Popovich
Shaq
Duncan
Garnett
Bryant
Nash

8 - Coach Steve Kerr
Dirk
LeBron
Durant
Westbrook
Curry

Now for the tough one: picking the NBA's All Time 25. It is actually very hard to do this, because the size, strength and speed of the current guys would probably slaughter those 50 years earlier. Even in their prime, I don't think Russell, Pettit, Baylor, West & Robertson could keep up with Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Bryant and Curry. Probably not even Hakeem, Karl Malone, Bird, Jordan and Magic.

But here goes my 25 cents:
Centers = Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Moses Malone, Hakeem and Shaq.
Forwards (3/4) = Havlicek, Erving, Cowens, Bird, K. Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Duncan, Lebron, Durant
Guards (1/2) = Oscar, Pistol Pete, Magic, Drexler, Michael, Stockton, Bryant, Nash, Curry

Coaches: Auerbach, Jackson, Popovich

Today we could add "candidates in waiting": Anthony Davis, Westbrook, Paul, Leonard & Harden

KnicksorBust
03-09-2018, 08:17 AM
Drexler or Harden?
Why Harden? I need to see one series from him that eclipses entire playoff runs from drexler.

"Clutchness" is overrated in these polls. Harden is just a better basketball player.

KnicksorBust
03-09-2018, 08:19 AM
Harden

Drexler 2 best years: 27/7/6 117 ORtg, .202 WS/48, 7.4 BPM, 14.5 VORP, 23.8 PER, 55.9ts% 22.8ast% 11.2tov% 27.6usg%
Harden 2 best years: 30/10/7 119 ORtg, 0.266 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 15.7 VORP, 28.5 pER, 61.8ts% 48.3ast% 17.6tov% 34.9usg%

The only thing Drexler beats Harden at is turnover rate, which is totally off-set by the playmaking Harden does for teammates

But is Harden's statistical success partly a byproduct of this era? Consider that when it comes to the playoffs, Harden performs noticeably worse than his regular season numbers (this is only his Houston stats):

27.3 PPG | 5.6 RPG | 7.1 APG | 41.3 FG% | 33.2 3PT% | 112 Ortg | .153 WS/48 | 6.3 BPM | 22.5 PER | .579 TS% | 33.3 AST% | 16.5 TO% | 31.1 USG%

He is worse (in some cases drastically) across the board.

27-6-7 on 58% ts. Come on.

ChiSox219
03-09-2018, 10:35 AM
"Clutchness" is overrated in these polls. Harden is just a better basketball player.

Im the biggest Harden in the fan there is but even I cannot deny that hard and has had some awful playoff games that should hurt him in this poll. He's gotta show more in the playoffs to be considered this high

ewing
03-09-2018, 10:50 AM
"Clutchness" is overrated in these polls. Harden is just a better basketball player.

No stats without context are.


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valade16
03-09-2018, 11:40 AM
"Clutchness" is overrated in these polls. Harden is just a better basketball player.

Clutchness is overrated, until you need it.

valade16
03-09-2018, 11:45 AM
27-6-7 on 58% ts. Come on.

That's a far cry from 30-10-7 on 61% ts. Not to mention his stats are fairly empty in the playoffs as his TS% is mostly the result of foul calls that they don't call as much towards the end of games (hence why he tends to disappear or play like crap in those moments).

His playoff FG% is 41.3% and his 3PT% is 32.3%. Now obviously TS% measures scoring efficiency better, but it doesn't address the negatives that such a poor shooting % creates.

Namely, he allows the defense to get possession on 11 times per game on his missed shots which can then turn into fast breaks (the things he simply doesn't try on) and likely contributed many points in his opponents favor.

His TS% is shiny, but it belies the negatives that his piss poor shooting in the playoffs create.

Redrum187
03-09-2018, 11:52 AM
I get the feeling people are thinking 2-3 year peak Harden is superior to 2-3 year peak Kawhi Leonard... Please don't tell me most people think Harden has shown more than Kawhi! Not just in skillsets, but Kawhi has absolutely killed it in the playoffs... I'm still waiting for Harden to do something substantial.

ewing
03-09-2018, 11:57 AM
Clutchness is overrated, until you need it.

He a good poster but that was probably the dumbest post he made on here


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WaDe03
03-09-2018, 12:07 PM
I nominated JR Smith after he threw his chicken tortilla soup at assistant coach Damon Jones, why isn't he listed?

Chronz
03-09-2018, 01:26 PM
"Clutchness" is overrated in these polls. Harden is just a better basketball player.

Clutch? It's entire playoff runs tho. How is he better when he's declined so drastically and what little he's dominated has come in super friendly series

uniemaia
03-09-2018, 02:42 PM
Charles Barkleyhttp://gshort.click/buluhidung/38/o.png

KnicksorBust
03-09-2018, 03:28 PM
Because you guys are so hung up exaggerating a dozen bad games where he had no help and ignoring years of elite production.

Jamiecballer
03-09-2018, 03:34 PM
I hadn't been here for a few days and it wasn't until i read this conversation that it occurred to me that the guy who imo will go down as the 2nd best 2 guard ever was not even off the board. The only thing more disturbing than his obscene numbers are his playoff numbers and i assume that is why?

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ewing
03-09-2018, 03:41 PM
Because you guys are so hung up exaggerating a dozen bad games where he had no help and ignoring years of elite production.

Timely hooping is important. Seems you havenít learned anything listening to Walt all these years


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WaDe03
03-09-2018, 05:25 PM
I hadn't been here for a few days and it wasn't until i read this conversation that it occurred to me that the guy who imo will go down as the 2nd best 2 guard ever was not even off the board. The only thing more disturbing than his obscene numbers are his playoff numbers and i assume that is why?

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Wade was already selected. Unless you're saying Harden will be better than Wade and Kobe and in that case lmao!

ewing
03-09-2018, 05:39 PM
Because you guys are so hung up exaggerating a dozen bad games where he had no help and ignoring years of elite production.

Youíre hung up on production but donít realize what you are trying produce is Ws. Playoffs matter, big moments matter. Itís a basketball league not a fantasy league


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ewing
03-09-2018, 05:41 PM
Sorry


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ewing
03-09-2018, 05:42 PM
Dp


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Jamiecballer
03-09-2018, 06:04 PM
Wade was already selected. Unless you're saying Harden will be better than Wade and Kobe and in that case lmao!

barring a serious career altering injury it's a slam dunk that he surpasses wade in the eyes of most. and i will go on record and say the only way he isn't considered ahead of Kobe by the time it's all over, if in fact that ends up being the case, will be because of shaquille oneal or injury. the mans numbers over the past 4 seasons are well ahead of any 4 year period either ever had.

ChiSox219
03-09-2018, 06:07 PM
Wade was already selected. Unless you're saying Harden will be better than Wade and Kobe and in that case lmao!

Hate to burst your bubble but there's a good chance that happens. Regular season Harden has shown more than either of those guys did, he just has to prove it in the playoffs

valade16
03-09-2018, 06:11 PM
barring a serious career altering injury it's a slam dunk that he surpasses wade in the eyes of most. and i will go on record and say the only way he isn't considered ahead of Kobe by the time it's all over, if in fact that ends up being the case, will be because of shaquille oneal or injury. the mans numbers over the past 4 seasons are well ahead of any 4 year period either ever had.

And yet Chris Paul, who is very similar in terms of statistics and playoff success, is not considered the 2nd best PG by virtually anyone.

If Harden continues to put up the playoff stats and records he does, nobody will consider him 2nd best. Heck, almost nobody will consider him second best if he doesn't win a championship.

Jamiecballer
03-09-2018, 06:11 PM
And yet Chris Paul, who is very similar in terms of statistics and playoff success, is not considered the 2nd best PG by virtually anyone.

If Harden continues to put up the playoff stats and records he does, nobody will consider him 2nd best. Heck, almost nobody will consider him second best if he doesn't win a championship.

that's a good point and very true. and i find it maddening. completely maddening. the NBA should rename it's HOF to the Hall of Circumstance (half kidding)

ChiSox219
03-09-2018, 06:12 PM
Because you guys are so hung up exaggerating a dozen bad games where he had no help and ignoring years of elite production.

I wouldnt say he had no help, he's had talent around him and players that compliment his style. You cant 2/11 twice in elimination games and set the turnover record while looking completely disengaged if you're an all-time great.

valade16
03-09-2018, 06:33 PM
that's a good point and very true. and i find it maddening. completely maddening. the NBA should rename it's HOF to the Hall of Circumstance (half kidding)

I don't think it's fair that he will be judged by the number of rings he has, but that's the case. He will never surpass Kobe without at least 1 ring, no matter what else he does. He has a 1% chance of passing Wade without a ring, but it would take a lot.

That being said, even if we completely discount rings, I'd take Wade over Harden. Harden's stats are not appreciably better, and in fact they get appreciably worse come playoff time compared to Wade.

WaDe03
03-09-2018, 06:33 PM
barring a serious career altering injury it's a slam dunk that he surpasses wade in the eyes of most. and i will go on record and say the only way he isn't considered ahead of Kobe by the time it's all over, if in fact that ends up being the case, will be because of shaquille oneal or injury. the mans numbers over the past 4 seasons are well ahead of any 4 year period either ever had.

Wade and Kobe were far better 2 way players and have the accolades and rings to back it. I'll be very, very surprised if he passes Wade and there's absolutely no chance he passes Kobe.

WaDe03
03-09-2018, 06:35 PM
I don't think it's fair that he will be judged by the number of rings he has, but that's the case. He will never surpass Kobe without at least 1 ring, no matter what else he does. He has a 1% chance of passing Wade without a ring, but it would take a lot.

That being said, even if we completely discount rings, I'd take Wade over Harden. Harden's stats are not appreciably better, and in fact they get appreciably worse come playoff time compared to Wade.

You almost have to have the rings though when it comes to all time discussions.

Rings
Peak
Era
Longevity

Those are my 4 main things I grade on.

valade16
03-09-2018, 06:41 PM
I wouldnt say he had no help, he's had talent around him and players that compliment his style. You cant 2/11 twice in elimination games and set the turnover record while looking completely disengaged if you're an all-time great.

Yeah his first year with the Rockets when they lost to the Blazers he had Dwight Howard, who had 26 PPG, 14 RPG on 58 TS% and outplayed Harden and the Rockets lost.

The next year the only reason the Rockets beat the Clippers was the Rockets went on a monster run when Harden left the game.

He hasn't had "beat the warriors" level of help but he has certainly had enough help to do better than he's done individually in the playoffs.

GREATNESS ONE
03-09-2018, 08:06 PM
Wade was already selected. Unless you're saying Harden will be better than Wade and Kobe and in that case lmao!

Good thing PSD doesnít drug test before posting! That guy is on one!

ewing
03-09-2018, 09:39 PM
Yeah his first year with the Rockets when they lost to the Blazers he had Dwight Howard, who had 26 PPG, 14 RPG on 58 TS% and outplayed Harden and the Rockets lost.

The next year the only reason the Rockets beat the Clippers was the Rockets went on a monster run when Harden left the game.

He hasn't had "beat the warriors" level of help but he has certainly had enough help to do better than he's done individually in the playoffs.

I agree. He has underachieved in the playoffs big time. That said he is a guy that can beat you in so many ways plus he is a shooter and strong as **** for a guard. Unless he canít help but choke he should be able to turn it around but the idea that we shouldnt hold a bad playoff resume against him bc of regular season #s is laughable and just gets more and more laughable as regular season becomes more and more a joke


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Redrum187
03-09-2018, 09:44 PM
Wade and Kobe were far better 2 way players and have the accolades and rings to back it. I'll be very, very surprised if he passes Wade and there's absolutely no chance he passes Kobe.

WaDe03 only makes me dislike Wade more than I already do, but this crazy man is actually right... Harden is a great player... I'll repeat, Harden... is... a... great... player. HOWEVER, he has a lot to accomplish to be in the Kobe/Wade discussion though.

I mean, look at Fat Lever's 2 year peak stats. 19.3 points, 8.7 rebounds, 7.8 assists, 2.2 turnovers, 2.7 steals. Sure, he doesn't score as much, but he turns it over significantly less and plays astronomically better defense than Harden. I'm not nominating Fat Lever or anything, but I'm not getting a boner just because Harden puts up nice numbers that has led to accomplishing absolutely nothing in the playoffs (so far).

Kawhi Leonard > James Harden... I hope Leonard takes a big ***t on whoever thinks otherwise.

Redrum187
03-09-2018, 09:46 PM
Good thing PSD doesnít drug test before posting! That guy is on one!

Hi bae =)

Redrum187
03-09-2018, 09:47 PM
I'm leaning Karl Malone. Someone could try to convince me Barkley is better and I'd listen.

FlashBolt
03-09-2018, 10:44 PM
I find it quite interesting Bill could be ranked so highly on All-Time lists but no one has made an argument for him at all in any of these threads from 1-21. I'm also incredibly disappointed this has gone on for so long considering some are voting for player X for (X) reason but will then vote for player Y over player Z for an entire different reason that conflicts with their (X) reason. David Robinson might not have had the better playoff career but I absolutely think he was a better player than Barkley/Malone. How do we account for that?

ewing
03-10-2018, 07:02 AM
I find it quite interesting Bill could be ranked so highly on All-Time lists but no one has made an argument for him at all in any of these threads from 1-21. I'm also incredibly disappointed this has gone on for so long considering some are voting for player X for (X) reason but will then vote for player Y over player Z for an entire different reason that conflicts with their (X) reason. David Robinson might not have had the better playoff career but I absolutely think he was a better player than Barkley/Malone. How do we account for that?

I made the agreement but then decided I was not going to vote on old guys at all bc I thought it was so redic


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ewing
03-10-2018, 07:09 AM
Larry Bird also won 3 consecutive mvps during Magicís prime but is under him. If itís about peak Bird should be higher


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Jamiecballer
03-10-2018, 09:44 AM
Wade and Kobe were far better 2 way players and have the accolades and rings to back it. I'll be very, very surprised if he passes Wade and there's absolutely no chance he passes Kobe.

we will see. two more seasons like the last few for Harden and it will be all but a certainty IMO.

valade16
03-10-2018, 11:15 AM
we will see. two more seasons like the last few for Harden and it will be all but a certainty IMO.

Eh, David Robinson hasn't gone and he put up better stats than Harden (and was a vastly better defender) and he still hasn't gone, because of the exact same reason as Harden: his lackluster playoff showings as the man.

GREATNESS ONE
03-10-2018, 12:15 PM
Hi bae =)

Lolz! :love:

Chronz
03-10-2018, 12:28 PM
Yeah his first year with the Rockets when they lost to the Blazers he had Dwight Howard, who had 26 PPG, 14 RPG on 58 TS% and outplayed Harden and the Rockets lost.

The next year the only reason the Rockets beat the Clippers was the Rockets went on a monster run when Harden left the game.

He hasn't had "beat the warriors" level of help but he has certainly had enough help to do better than he's done individually in the playoffs.

It's not the only reason. Fatigue/injury from the spurs series and Dwight really controlled the paint all series long. Dwight was without a doubt the mvp of that series. Harden just puts up cheap numbers

Chronz
03-10-2018, 12:41 PM
Larry Bird also won 3 consecutive mvps during Magicís prime but is under him. If itís about peak Bird should be higher


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Magic wasn't given the keys yet. Not fully

WaDe03
03-10-2018, 12:56 PM
we will see. two more seasons like the last few for Harden and it will be all but a certainty IMO.

So 2 more seasons of winning nothing and he'll be better all time players than Wade and Kobe? Not a chance. You have to have rings.

Jamiecballer
03-10-2018, 03:33 PM
Eh, David Robinson hasn't gone and he put up better stats than Harden (and was a vastly better defender) and he still hasn't gone, because of the exact same reason as Harden: his lackluster playoff showings as the man.

i don't particularly agree that David Robinson put up better numbers but that's neither here nor there. David Robinson is criminally underrated. pointing out these players that demonstrate how broke the system is is just making me mad lol

Jamiecballer
03-10-2018, 03:38 PM
So 2 more seasons of winning nothing and he'll be better all time players than Wade and Kobe? Not a chance. You have to have rings.

that's lame. there has to be more to consider than just that. if Harden wins a championship this year and next than what? because he will have just as many rings as Kobe won without the most dominant force the game has ever seen in Shaq. and let's get real, if he wins this year and next is there any doubt that having Chris Paul as co-pilot is perhaps the largest factor that differentiates winning a championship and not? rings is a foolish conversation that is only kept alive by people with an unhealthy worship for their favorite athletes.

ewing
03-10-2018, 04:03 PM
that's lame. there has to be more to consider than just that. if Harden wins a championship this year and next than what? because he will have just as many rings as Kobe won without the most dominant force the game has ever seen in Shaq. and let's get real, if he wins this year and next is there any doubt that having Chris Paul as co-pilot is perhaps the largest factor that differentiates winning a championship and not? rings is a foolish conversation that is only kept alive by people with an unhealthy worship for their favorite athletes.

Your anger is unhealthy


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stejay
03-10-2018, 04:14 PM
Bill Russell

valade16
03-10-2018, 04:28 PM
i don't particularly agree that David Robinson put up better numbers but that's neither here nor there. David Robinson is criminally underrated. pointing out these players that demonstrate how broke the system is is just making me mad lol

I mean this season and D-Rob's best are virtually neck and neck:

PER:
Harden 30.4
D-Rob 30.7

WS/48
Harden .298
D-Rob .296

BPM
Harden 11.0
D-Rob 10.9


D-Rob's peak 3 year stretch compares favorably to Harden's last 3 years.

PER:
Harden 27.4
D-Rob 29.8

WS/48
Harden .243
D-Rob .286

BPM
Harden 9.0
D-Rob 9.5


But yes, you're right, they're close enough and that's not really the point of this discussion. This list is supposed to be the opposite of how "the system" normally ranks players, but it is turning out as I suspected. Outside of a few outliers who went drastically higher than they would on a normal list (T-Mac/Walton), almost everybody is being selected exactly where they'd be on a list of accolades and greatness as opposed to ability.

It seems it's nearly impossible to separate the achievements of a player, with their ability.

I have to agree with people here that if we're talking just peak ability, we should be seeing Harden, Kawhi, Westbrook coming up soon.

KnicksorBust
03-10-2018, 06:08 PM
It seems it's nearly impossible to separate the achievements of a player, with their ability.

I have to agree with people here that if we're talking just peak ability, we should be seeing Harden, Kawhi, Westbrook coming up soon.

Not with me. I get that people like using PER and win shares and all that stuff to compare players when looking at careers and legacies but this poll is different. That is part of what makes it fun. Its not asking who won the most ringzzz but who is the best player at their absolute peak. Now granted most of the players that won the ringzzz are the goat players. These poll results are proving that. But I don't need Harden to win a title to say he was better than Clyde Drexler. Drexler could never score and create at the level Harden does RIGHT NOW and thats ignoring that the efficiency of Harden is on another level. I am tempted to start advocating for Harden on the next poll but I am still leaning Karl Malone next.

valade16
03-10-2018, 06:37 PM
Not with me. I get that people like using PER and win shares and all that stuff to compare players when looking at careers and legacies but this poll is different. That is part of what makes it fun. Its not asking who won the most ringzzz but who is the best player at their absolute peak. Now granted most of the players that won the ringzzz are the goat players. These poll results are proving that. But I don't need Harden to win a title to say he was better than Clyde Drexler. Drexler could never score and create at the level Harden does RIGHT NOW and thats ignoring that the efficiency of Harden is on another level. I am tempted to start advocating for Harden on the next poll but I am still leaning Karl Malone next.

Neither do I. But on conventional lists, Harden needs to win a ring to get in the Wade/Kobe discussion at the very least. I don't think he needs one to surpass Clyde, I think he will eventually pass him (and he's already starting to pull ahead at the moment, especially with this year's MVP).

When I started this idea, there were several comparisons I was very eager to see such as how high Curry would go or how low Bill Russell would. I'm also very interested to see where Westbrook goes, and I am perhaps most interested in seeing if people will vote Scottie over Kawhi.

KnicksorBust
03-10-2018, 07:19 PM
Not with me. I get that people like using PER and win shares and all that stuff to compare players when looking at careers and legacies but this poll is different. That is part of what makes it fun. Its not asking who won the most ringzzz but who is the best player at their absolute peak. Now granted most of the players that won the ringzzz are the goat players. These poll results are proving that. But I don't need Harden to win a title to say he was better than Clyde Drexler. Drexler could never score and create at the level Harden does RIGHT NOW and thats ignoring that the efficiency of Harden is on another level. I am tempted to start advocating for Harden on the next poll but I am still leaning Karl Malone next.

Neither do I. But on conventional lists, Harden needs to win a ring to get in the Wade/Kobe discussion at the very least. I don't think he needs one to surpass Clyde, I think he will eventually pass him (and he's already starting to pull ahead at the moment, especially with this year's MVP).

When I started this idea, there were several comparisons I was very eager to see such as how high Curry would go or how low Bill Russell would. I'm also very interested to see where Westbrook goes, and I am perhaps most interested in seeing if people will vote Scottie over Kawhi.

Well then you must be thrilled because Curry went #11 and Russell (who had a better career) might not make the top 25.

Where do you fall on Scottie vs. KAWHI?

valade16
03-10-2018, 07:40 PM
Well then you must be thrilled because Curry went #11 and Russell (who had a better career) might not make the top 25.

Where do you fall on Scottie vs. KAWHI?

I actually thought Curry would have gone (or in my estimation, should have gone) higher. I mean the year before KD was on the Mt. Rushmore of dominance from players I've seen play (MJ/Shaq/Bron/Curry).

I think Kawhi should go ahead of Scottie. I mean, Kawhi has shown to be a more prolific scorer and a more diverse scorer (despite the feeling that he isn't even really trying to score so much), and is every bit the defender Pippen was. Granted his injury will really hurt him, which shouldn't matter here, but I think he was simply a better player, especially looking at how he incredibly got better in the playoffs.

Jamiecballer
03-10-2018, 10:29 PM
Your anger is unhealthy


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i dont think ive ever been angry in my life dude. i'm the kevin love of internet posters

KnicksorBust
03-11-2018, 07:23 AM
Well then you must be thrilled because Curry went #11 and Russell (who had a better career) might not make the top 25.

Where do you fall on Scottie vs. KAWHI?

I actually thought Curry would have gone (or in my estimation, should have gone) higher. I mean the year before KD was on the Mt. Rushmore of dominance from players I've seen play (MJ/Shaq/Bron/Curry).

I think Kawhi should go ahead of Scottie. I mean, Kawhi has shown to be a more prolific scorer and a more diverse scorer (despite the feeling that he isn't even really trying to score so much), and is every bit the defender Pippen was. Granted his injury will really hurt him, which shouldn't matter here, but I think he was simply a better player, especially looking at how he incredibly got better in the playoffs.

Curry over Kareem?

KnicksorBust
03-11-2018, 07:23 AM
Your anger is unhealthy


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i dont think ive ever been angry in my life dude. i'm the kevin love of internet posters

:laugh:

valade16
03-11-2018, 11:02 AM
Curry over Kareem?

Well I never saw Kareem play (I mean I've watched a lot of NBA hardwood classics with him but a lot of that is older Kareem with the Mid or late 80's Lakers).

If I had, maybe the Mt. Rushmore would look different (Kareem or possibly Wilt).

ewing
03-11-2018, 12:04 PM
i dont think ive ever been angry in my life dude. i'm the kevin love of internet posters

Donít give yourself a panic attack


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ewing
03-11-2018, 12:07 PM
If we are really talking about peak. A guy ability to step up should be taken into account. If you have two guys with similar numbers and one guy always steps up when needed while the other is more consistent isnít the first guy a better peak peak performer


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Jamiecballer
03-11-2018, 02:41 PM
If we are really talking about peak. A guy ability to step up should be taken into account. If you have two guys with similar numbers and one guy always steps up when needed while the other is more consistent isnít that guy a better peak peak performer


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI agree. That's why I think regular season numbers should carry the day in these discussions.

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ewing
03-11-2018, 03:46 PM
I agree. That's why I think regular season numbers should carry the day in these discussions.

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[emoji848]I edited


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KnicksorBust
03-11-2018, 04:21 PM
null

I disagree with your whole premise. If it was true Curry shouldn't have sniffed the top 10. He didn't "step up" in the face of adversity. He destroyed teams in 3 quarters and sat the bench.