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View Full Version : Best Player of All-Time At Their Peak (#20)



valade16
03-05-2018, 01:42 PM
So we do a “top 25 greatest players of all-time list” here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O’Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant
16. Jerry West
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Kevin Garnett

ewing
03-05-2018, 02:59 PM
Dirk


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Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 03:03 PM
Gonna go with Dirk here. Comparing Dirk's peak to Chuck's peak (link here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dirk+Nowitzki&player_id1_select=Dirk+Nowitzki&y1=2006&player_id1=nowitdi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Charles+Barkley&player_id2_select=Charles+Barkley&y2=1990&player_id2=barklch01&idx=players))

Per 100 possessions, Dirk scores 6 more points, rebounds only 1.8 less boards, 0.9 less assists. Dirk probably the better defender. And when I factor in how Dirk would be a monster in any era, and Chuck would struggle in today's era, I give the edge to Dirk.

HandsOnTheWheel
03-05-2018, 03:22 PM
Voted Chuck last thread but didn't see Dirk. Gimme 2011 Dirk and someone who has always seemingly lead a team of nobodies to a lot of wins for many years including his '11 chip

Hawkeye15
03-05-2018, 03:45 PM
Gonna go with Dirk here. Comparing Dirk's peak to Chuck's peak (link here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dirk+Nowitzki&player_id1_select=Dirk+Nowitzki&y1=2006&player_id1=nowitdi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Charles+Barkley&player_id2_select=Charles+Barkley&y2=1990&player_id2=barklch01&idx=players))

Per 100 possessions, Dirk scores 6 more points, rebounds only 1.8 less boards, 0.9 less assists. Dirk probably the better defender. And when I factor in how Dirk would be a monster in any era, and Chuck would struggle in today's era, I give the edge to Dirk.

huh? A big who could pass, dribble, and has a huge IQ would struggle? I think he would rip it up today.

Chronz
03-05-2018, 03:46 PM
Down to Dirk or chuck which is odd cuz I remember growing up and everyone slobbing on drob. Gonna contemplate but I'm leaning Dirk for now

YAALREADYKNO
03-05-2018, 03:51 PM
huh? A big who could pass, dribble, and has a huge IQ would struggle? I think he would rip it up today.

My thoughts exactly lol

Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 03:53 PM
huh? A big who could pass, dribble, and has a huge IQ would struggle? I think he would rip it up today.

Do younsee him playing the 4 still? And struggle is too strong of a word. Maybe i shouldve said i dont think he would flourish as well as he did when he could back down guys for 15 seconds without a stoppage of play

Chronz
03-05-2018, 03:54 PM
Gonna go with Dirk here. Comparing Dirk's peak to Chuck's peak (link here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dirk+Nowitzki&player_id1_select=Dirk+Nowitzki&y1=2006&player_id1=nowitdi01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Charles+Barkley&player_id2_select=Charles+Barkley&y2=1990&player_id2=barklch01&idx=players))

Per 100 possessions, Dirk scores 6 more points, rebounds only 1.8 less boards, 0.9 less assists. Dirk probably the better defender. And when I factor in how Dirk would be a monster in any era, and Chuck would struggle in today's era, I give the edge to Dirk.
Not all rebounds are created equally tho, chuck was a monster offensive rebounder but what Dirk lacked in crashing the glass he more than made up for in spreading the floor with killer accuracy. Not sure how that holds up without the 3pt line and I don't know how anyone could contain chuck without handcheck. He's not your typical big, he's a swing with mass, kind of like dwade in terms of their low center of mass and powerful build, in some ways their lack of size helped given they still had the length to play big only with a more compact core.

One way to throw Dirk off his game was to get physical, not sure how that holds up across eras. Regardless we should still focus primarily on their impact vs their era along with their skills and success.

Defensively is very curious, I'd say they're equal throughout their careers with both having a few outliers of strong defense.

Bill Russell gets shafted when tbh, he might've been better offensively in this era since its not centered around post scoring. And his accomplishments and playoff play dwarf the rest.

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 04:05 PM
I'm going Round Mound of Rebound. Guys that can rebound and attack the basket like Barkley are timeless. No era requirements necessary.

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 04:06 PM
Nerds should appreciate Barkley was actually a more efficient scorer than Dirk and had a higher PER. :speechless:

Redrum187
03-05-2018, 05:29 PM
Dirk did what Barkley never could. He didn't just do it against a crappy team, he did it against a trio of prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh.

As Shammy states per 100, it's not that significant of a difference on rebounds/assists. Dirk was also an underrated defender. I would post multiple sources and RAPM to show Dirk has been a positive on defense, but I doubt being in the year 2018 anyone who still thinks Dirk was a bad defender is going to change their opinion.

Playoff Dirk beats Barkley as well. Dirk's top 3 WS/48 .287, .263, and .291 to Barkley's .217, .215, .213. Mind you, Dirk led the league in WS/48 in the playoffs as well. He blows Barklet out of the water honestly... Both were efficient players, but Dirk offered more than personal efficiency. He helps the team to a greater degree than Barkley could by his ability to pull the defense away. Yes, Barkley was the better post up player... but if you don't think Dirk could post up, you didn't watch him. Dirk posted up way more in the playoffs than in the regular season. Sure, he couldn't bully people with his frame like Barkley did in the regular season, but in the playoffs Dirk showcased his complete offensive arsenal: post up, mid-range, pick and roll, one-legged fade away, 3 point shot, etc... While Barkley was on par scoring wise on less dynamic offensive skills, it didn't yield better advanced stats or team success.

I'm sorry they are already forgetting about you Dirk. =(

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 05:44 PM
Dirk did what Barkley never could. He didn't just do it against a crappy team, he did it against a trio of prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh.

As Shammy states per 100, it's not that significant of a difference on rebounds/assists. Dirk was also an underrated defender. I would post multiple sources and RAPM to show Dirk has been a positive on defense, but I doubt being in the year 2018 anyone who still thinks Dirk was a bad defender is going to change their opinion.

Playoff Dirk beats Barkley as well. Dirk's top 3 WS/48 .287, .263, and .291 to Barkley's .217, .215, .213. Mind you, Dirk led the league in WS/48 in the playoffs as well. He blows Barklet out of the water honestly... Both were efficient players, but Dirk offered more than personal efficiency. He helps the team to a greater degree than Barkley could by his ability to pull the defense away. Yes, Barkley was the better post up player... but if you don't think Dirk could post up, you didn't watch him. Dirk posted up way more in the playoffs than in the regular season. Sure, he couldn't bully people with his frame like Barkley did in the regular season, but in the playoffs Dirk showcased his complete offensive arsenal: post up, mid-range, pick and roll, one-legged fade away, 3 point shot, etc... While Barkley was on par scoring wise on less dynamic offensive skills, it didn't yield better advanced stats or team success.

I'm sorry they are already forgetting about you Dirk. =(

I read the whole thing but you lost me a little bit when you said there was no significant difference in rebounding. Thats cray.

Chronz
03-05-2018, 05:44 PM
That's a pretty good argument. Are we all in agreement that drob doesn't belong?

valade16
03-05-2018, 06:53 PM
That's a pretty good argument. Are we all in agreement that drob doesn't belong?

I mean, if KG just went why shouldn't D-Rob?

What is the argument for KG being the better player than D-Rob? D-Rob was a better defender and scored more. Maybe not better defender, but his defense at the rim is more valuable than KG's pick and roll defense.

Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 07:03 PM
I mean, if KG just went why shouldn't D-Rob?

What is the argument for KG being the better player than D-Rob? D-Rob was a better defender and scored more. Maybe not better defender, but his defense at the rim is more valuable than KG's pick and roll defense.

My thoughts as well. Which is why last thread I said, since KG is off the board the next 4 really should be some order of Dirk/Chuck/Robinson/Russell

Chronz
03-05-2018, 07:15 PM
I mean, if KG just went why shouldn't D-Rob?

What is the argument for KG being the better player than D-Rob? D-Rob was a better defender and scored more. Maybe not better defender, but his defense at the rim is more valuable than KG's pick and roll defense.
Yeah but we can't do **** about the last vote

Redrum187
03-05-2018, 10:01 PM
I read the whole thing but you lost me a little bit when you said there was no significant difference in rebounding. Thats cray.

Playoff Dirk's rebounding I was speaking about. It's about 2% points less on rebound%. Yes, Barkley was better in both regular season and postseason rebounding, but it's not enough of a gap to offset all the other stats that point to Dirk's favor. More importantly, it doesn't excuse Barkley from not achieving what Dirk did.

You should change your vote. :(

ChiSox219
03-06-2018, 12:19 AM
I got CP3 here, disregard my vote Russell

ewing
03-06-2018, 08:19 AM
Yeah I think Dirk if the clear choice (was last time too) He was just such a diverse offensive weapon. I know Chuck got buckets but to me Dirk was just a much more impactful scorer. After all this time I can’t say Chuck stands out to me as being a better defender. The only big plus I give Barkey is the his ability to push the ball and fill lanes better on the break which got his squads some easy buckets


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KnicksorBust
03-06-2018, 12:19 PM
Playoff Dirk's rebounding I was speaking about. It's about 2% points less on rebound%. Yes, Barkley was better in both regular season and postseason rebounding, but it's not enough of a gap to offset all the other stats that point to Dirk's favor. More importantly, it doesn't excuse Barkley from not achieving what Dirk did.

You should change your vote. :(

This is where stats are misleading. The difference between Barkley and Dirk's impact on rebounding is not 2%.

KnicksorBust
03-06-2018, 12:30 PM
Dirk did what Barkley never could. He didn't just do it against a crappy team, he did it against a trio of prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh.


Dirk in the 2011 NBA Finals: 26 ppg / 9.7 rpg / 2.0 apg / 0.7 spg / 0.7 bpg
Barkley in the 93 NBA Finals: 27.3ppg / 13 rpg / 5.5 apg / 1.2 spg / 0.5 bpg

Dirk efficiency in 2011 Finals: 53.7 TS% / 105 ORtg / 105 DRtg / Game Score: 16.6
Barkley efficiency in 93 Finals: 54.4 TS% / 123 ORtg / 111DRtg / Game Score: 23.4

If you are a numbers guy I don't know how you argue Dirk bc of RINGZ.

Jamiecballer
03-06-2018, 06:13 PM
Charles Barkley by a landslide

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Redrum187
03-06-2018, 06:39 PM
Dirk in the 2011 NBA Finals: 26 ppg / 9.7 rpg / 2.0 apg / 0.7 spg / 0.7 bpg
Barkley in the 93 NBA Finals: 27.3ppg / 13 rpg / 5.5 apg / 1.2 spg / 0.5 bpg

Dirk efficiency in 2011 Finals: 53.7 TS% / 105 ORtg / 105 DRtg / Game Score: 16.6
Barkley efficiency in 93 Finals: 54.4 TS% / 123 ORtg / 111DRtg / Game Score: 23.4

If you are a numbers guy I don't know how you argue Dirk bc of RINGZ.

Meh, Dirk's 2011 postsesaon collectively is superior to Barkley's entire 93 postseason collectively. And I'm not exclusively a numbers a guy, I take a lot more account than rings OR numbers. Dirk yielded more with having less. In 2006, Dirk and the Mavs had no reason even being in the Finals. In 2011, he had out of prime players who were hungry and helped Dirk avenge his 2006 Finals loss... but lets not pretend that his teammates for that ONE season were all stars or all in their prime. It's not like Barkley didn't have help... Thunder Dan, KJ, and Danny Ainge is better than what Dirk has had most of his career.

I'm just not seeing Barkley's advantage at rebounds and assists as making up for Dirk's offensive versatility and efficiency in the postseason and defeating a trio of Prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh to get a ring. While Barkley was efficient in the regular season and many of his postseason, he posted his least efficient (.552 TS%) postseason the year he went to the Finals (1993). Snapshot whatever part of the 1993 season you want, he didn't get the job done. It doesn't take away from his greatness, but that in conjunction with the other reasons I've stated ought to make him come after Dirk.

Also, do you think Barkley was a better defender than Dirk?

KingPosey
03-06-2018, 10:03 PM
huh? A big who could pass, dribble, and has a huge IQ would struggle? I think he would rip it up today.

Ya no ****, chuck would be absolutely JUST fine today.

KingPosey
03-06-2018, 11:25 PM
It’s weird for people to argue that 6 points per 100 is big, but 2 rebound and an assist isn’t that much of a difference, when that essentially can add up to 6 to 9 more points.

FlashBolt
03-07-2018, 03:24 AM
Meh, Dirk's 2011 postsesaon collectively is superior to Barkley's entire 93 postseason collectively. And I'm not exclusively a numbers a guy, I take a lot more account than rings OR numbers. Dirk yielded more with having less. In 2006, Dirk and the Mavs had no reason even being in the Finals. In 2011, he had out of prime players who were hungry and helped Dirk avenge his 2006 Finals loss... but lets not pretend that his teammates for that ONE season were all stars or all in their prime. It's not like Barkley didn't have help... Thunder Dan, KJ, and Danny Ainge is better than what Dirk has had most of his career.

I'm just not seeing Barkley's advantage at rebounds and assists as making up for Dirk's offensive versatility and efficiency in the postseason and defeating a trio of Prime LeBron/Wade/Bosh to get a ring. While Barkley was efficient in the regular season and many of his postseason, he posted his least efficient (.552 TS%) postseason the year he went to the Finals (1993). Snapshot whatever part of the 1993 season you want, he didn't get the job done. It doesn't take away from his greatness, but that in conjunction with the other reasons I've stated ought to make him come after Dirk.

Also, do you think Barkley was a better defender than Dirk?

I don't see it too. I think what Dirk provides is a winning style of basketball. Barkley was fat and lazy defensively. He stuffed the rebounding and points but you can tell he was just a horrible and selfish teammate. When he wanted to, he could be a pesty defender but too bad he never cared enough defensively. Dirk might have only won a single championship but he'd be easier to build around IMO and his peak is underrated. Dude put up some really good years.. in 2011, he took out KD, Kobe, and LeBron. No one realizes how good he really is.

ewing
03-07-2018, 08:00 AM
Chuck might have been the biggest stopper I've ever watched play. Still great but I do think we have account for how his style fit an offense in comparison to Dirk