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View Full Version : Swap LeBron for Jordan and Jordan for LeBron. How many titles do each of them have?



LOb0
03-02-2018, 02:59 AM
So you're putting LeBron on Chicago and Jordan on the Cavs/Heat. This is a career swap were they encounter the same exact situations. My take:

Jordan

Up to 2009 he loses.

2010: I think they win the title. Cavs owned LA whenever they played. And I feel he beats Boston. LeBron had like 8 turnovers in game 6 and played bad for his standards.
2011: Easily win the title.
2012: Easy title win
2013: They win a close series
2014: I'd say it's 35% they win. That series feels like the classic Jordan keeps them close, stopping runs cold, and steals it at the end. I hated how Bron played that finals
2015: Cavs score zero in overtime in game 1, needless to say that's not happening with Mike. I think MJ loses in 7 due to all the injuries
2016: I think they win. Bron played pretty passive and bad 3 out of the first 4.
2017: I don't feel he's beating this GS team, but he'd scare them badly.

So I'd say 5 would be a safe bet. 6 if he went supernova. Finals record 5-4.

LeBron

I do not have the complete knowledge of Jordan's career as I was not born/young as *******. So I will do my best.

From what I can tell is Jordan played on terrible teams, till he got rookie Scottie and Grant in 1987. I think it is safe to say he doesn't have much of a chance until 1990 where Pippen had the migraines and shot 1-10 in game 7. So we shall start in 1991.

1991: The Lakers were decimated with injuries and Kareem was gone. I think it is safe to say LeBron wins this.
1992: I think they win this title hands down.
1993: I think this would be a much bigger test but Bron would pull it out.
1995: That Orlando team was just too damn big for Chicago. Pippen was the leading rebounder at 5.9 and returning mid season? I don't feel Bron could've pulled that off. If you want to say he didn't leave, I still hate the match up with Grant gone and no Rodman.
1996: LeBron beats the Sonics.
1997: Now this one is tricky. So we're swapping Careers here. Meaning LeBron would now have the "flu game" and do you trust Bron hitting that game 1 winner? Jordan also hit a game clinching three in the flu game. I think this series is a total toss up.
1998: This is the series I think LeBron loses. Pippen's back was shot. Jordan basically had to cover the offense and just stop runs keeping the game close. The team was totally washed up at this point. I feel we'd see a less extreme example of the 2014 finals where SA is running up the score as LeBron is passing to his mediocre teammates.

So I think the safe number is 5. low end 4. You could credit some of the pre finals teams like the Knicks and a few others, but I think Bron beats them. Finals record 5-1.

Your thoughts?

Vallejo Raiders
03-02-2018, 04:50 AM
Why would they draft Scottie if they had Bron?

LOb0
03-02-2018, 05:21 AM
Why would they draft Scottie if they had Bron?

It's kinda just doing a career swap. Or else we'd have to do the same for Jordan and it gets crazy complicated. It's about putting each one in the same situation and seeing how they'd do. lol we got LeBron so lets keep Olden Polynice?

KnicksorBust
03-02-2018, 09:01 AM
So you're putting LeBron on Chicago and Jordan on the Cavs/Heat. This is a career swap were they encounter the same exact situations. My take:

Jordan

Up to 2009 he loses.

2010: I think they win the title. Cavs owned LA whenever they played. And I feel he beats Boston. LeBron had like 8 turnovers in game 6 and played bad for his standards.
2011: Easily win the title.
2012: Easy title win
2013: They win a close series
2014: I'd say it's 35% they win. That series feels like the classic Jordan keeps them close, stopping runs cold, and steals it at the end. I hated how Bron played that finals
2015: Cavs score zero in overtime in game 1, needless to say that's not happening with Mike. I think MJ loses in 7 due to all the injuries
2016: I think they win. Bron played pretty passive and bad 3 out of the first 4.
2017: I don't feel he's beating this GS team, but he'd scare them badly.

So I'd say 5 would be a safe bet. 6 if he went supernova. Finals record 5-4.

LeBron

I do not have the complete knowledge of Jordan's career as I was not born/young as *******. So I will do my best.

From what I can tell is Jordan played on terrible teams, till he got rookie Scottie and Grant in 1987. I think it is safe to say he doesn't have much of a chance until 1990 where Pippen had the migraines and shot 1-10 in game 7. So we shall start in 1991.

1991: The Lakers were decimated with injuries and Kareem was gone. I think it is safe to say LeBron wins this.
1992: I think they win this title hands down.
1993: I think this would be a much bigger test but Bron would pull it out.
1995: That Orlando team was just too damn big for Chicago. Pippen was the leading rebounder at 5.9 and returning mid season? I don't feel Bron could've pulled that off. If you want to say he didn't leave, I still hate the match up with Grant gone and no Rodman.
1996: LeBron beats the Sonics.
1997: Now this one is tricky. So we're swapping Careers here. Meaning LeBron would now have the "flu game" and do you trust Bron hitting that game 1 winner? Jordan also hit a game clinching three in the flu game. I think this series is a total toss up.
1998: This is the series I think LeBron loses. Pippen's back was shot. Jordan basically had to cover the offense and just stop runs keeping the game close. The team was totally washed up at this point. I feel we'd see a less extreme example of the 2014 finals where SA is running up the score as LeBron is passing to his mediocre teammates.

So I think the safe number is 5. low end 4. You could credit some of the pre finals teams like the Knicks and a few others, but I think Bron beats them. Finals record 5-1.

Your thoughts?

To recap:

Jordan wins 2 extra rings and LeBron costs the Bulls a title?

Heediot
03-02-2018, 09:23 AM
How good would bron's iso game be in 90's-80s? Elite wings back then used the mid-range game and had a respectable jumper as a big part of their arsenal. LeBron is never really a crafty player, so that might hurt his game offensively with the style of play back then. He could still get to the rim, but it's easier to game plan against when bigs can camp in the paint and hand-checking is allowed. If he develops a mid-range game, it'll make him harder to defend.

I think Jordan would be fine with or without the 3. If DD, Westbrook, Giannis, Younger LeBron could get 25 plus with their weak *** jumper, I can see Jordan being fine. Zones might slow down his iso game, but I think he'd just set up defenders more with the drive as the mentioned players do. I don't see him having problems running the pnr, in this pnr league either.

I think both guys work on what they need to do to get better and adapt to the era and rules. Bron would work on his mid-range game and Jordan the 3 ball. I think Jordan adapts better personally, his jumper was always silky just needs to add range, whereas I don't see Bron break down defenders too much in a 1 on 1 situation outside of just driving to the hole . Jordan the better player so he would win more titles wth James team and Bron would have less titles with the 90's bulls.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 09:53 AM
LeBron zero, and Jordan every single year he played. Jordan played in the hardest league in sports history, against the best defenses ever seen in the team game. LeBron plays in the weakest era of sports history, and nobody cares to guard him, so his stats are incredibly inflated. Hell, if Jordan played now, he would average 55 a game. LeBron wouldn't make an all star team back in the 90's.

Vee-Rex
03-02-2018, 10:12 AM
LeBron zero, and Jordan every single year he played. Jordan played in the hardest league in sports history, against the best defenses ever seen in the team game. LeBron plays in the weakest era of sports history, and nobody cares to guard him, so his stats are incredibly inflated. Hell, if Jordan played now, he would average 55 a game. LeBron wouldn't make an all star team back in the 90's.

This is so unlike you. Meh, I don't like it.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 10:22 AM
This is so unlike you. Meh, I don't like it.

It's just stupid dude. Jordan, was my favorite player. I think is the greatest to play the game. But he is treated like a mythical unicorn by so many here. LeBron James is every bit as good. The only difference is team success, and I have touched on that some. Jordan did not run into the teams LeBron has in the finals. He just didn't. I also get that fans from a current era of anything, tend to lie on extreme sides of the spectrum many times.

LeBron James, at the end of his career, will be 1B to Jordan's 1A. And the only difference, is Jordan won more championships. While it's not overly fair to judge players on team success, the greatest unfortunately are. But the wins and losses don't mean as much as how a guy played in those scenarios. But for Jordan, he played awesome, AND won. Which gives him the slight bump over LeBron, who played awesome, and lost a few, to superior teams than Jordan ever played in the finals.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 10:59 AM
Jordan did not run into the teams LeBron has in the finals. He just didn't.

I feel you on this, but it just seems like every year in this new era of basketball we see another historical team. People are now calling the rockets a historical team.

I think basketball is too systematic now, the more well oiled your machine the better you can rack up efficient stats. Just look at the euroleague, teams have to be more versatile and this is where all the ball movement pace and space came from. NBA too ball handler, PNR, shooting oriented.

I think the way the cap and cba is structured is the main reason why there are more super teams. It's just harder to maintain a super team. In the past building one was harder but easier to maintain, now building one is easier but harder to maintain. Easy as in players will team up and collude if the team is good and has cap space or force a trade to a team. It's the luxury tax rules now that make it hard for you to keep your team without paying a hefty bill.

It's true Jordan' didn't face the same level of top heavy competition because of how things are structured.

LaVar Ball
03-02-2018, 11:06 AM
The answer is Kobe

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 11:47 AM
I feel you on this, but it just seems like every year in this new era of basketball we see another historical team. People are now calling the rockets a historical team.

I think basketball is too systematic now, the more well oiled your machine the better you can rack up efficient stats. Just look at the euroleague, teams have to be more versatile and this is where all the ball movement pace and space came from. NBA too ball handler, PNR, shooting oriented.

I think the way the cap and cba is structured is the main reason why there are more super teams. It's just harder to maintain a super team. In the past building one was harder but easier to maintain, now building one is easier but harder to maintain. Easy as in players will team up and collude if the team is good and has cap space or force a trade to a team. It's the luxury tax rules now that make it hard for you to keep your team without paying a hefty bill.

It's true Jordan' didn't face the same level of top heavy competition because of how things are structured.

the league is different, because of the arms race to chase GS, the cap, free agency, etc. GS built their dynasty, then landed an all timer in his peak due to a spike in the cap. It has never happened in sports, and probably won't again. The Rockets are awesome, but GS will remind everyone what they are in about 6 weeks.

The landscape is different too. You accurately state why in your post. Because of the fact that you don't need certain markets to make zillions in endorsements, every team is fair game in FA, and player movement now (amongst the stars) has never been seen before at this rate.

GS is the greatest team we have ever seen in the NBA, post merger. Furthermore, the teams LeBron ran into in 2014-2017, are simply a lot better than the teams Jordan ran into. I get nostalgia and our youth bring up emotion, and we tend to look at the past as "better" for all intensive purposes. But the teams Jordan ran into weren't anywhere near the finals teams LeBron ran into. Now, part of that is because Jordan played for a few of the greatest teams, and you can't play yourself haha.

Giannis94
03-02-2018, 11:57 AM
The answer is Kobe

**** that guy

ODB13
03-02-2018, 11:58 AM
If LeBron had to get through the 90s east, with the Heat, Knicks, Pistons, Celtics, and Pacers teams, etc., with the way they played defense, his body would have broken down to the point where he would already be retired. The depth of teams in today's league, especially in the east, is a total joke. Simply comparing Finals matchups is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

Imagine LeBron having to actually work for the top seed each year?

Imagine Jordan being able to take most of the season off to prepare for a single seven game series?

Heediot
03-02-2018, 12:12 PM
If LeBron had to get through the 90s east, with the Heat, Knicks, Pistons, Celtics, and Pacers teams, etc., with the way they played defense, his body would have broken down to the point where he would already be retired. The depth of teams in today's league, especially in the east, is a total joke. Simply comparing Finals matchups is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

Imagine LeBron having to actually work for the top seed each year?

Imagine Jordan being able to take most of the season off to prepare for a single seven game series?

Teams went harder back then on defense in general, but no era is immune to slackers. Players didn't rest as much too. the culture was different and more old school. There were more expansion teams which watered down the league back then. But there's more blatant tanking and just as much bad teams now.

I think there was more parity because there was no max contracts so guys would be offered too much money to form a super team via free agency. Rookie contracts were ridiculous too.

I think the there more lower tier contenders then but now there are more higher tier contenders. The east was tougher back then.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 12:14 PM
If LeBron had to get through the 90s east, with the Heat, Knicks, Pistons, Celtics, and Pacers teams, etc., with the way they played defense, his body would have broken down to the point where he would already be retired. The depth of teams in today's league, especially in the east, is a total joke. Simply comparing Finals matchups is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

Imagine LeBron having to actually work for the top seed each year?

Imagine Jordan being able to take most of the season off to prepare for a single seven game series?

Imagine those hard fouls against a guy the size of Karl Malone coming at them like a freight train.

I literally laugh my *** off when people try and act like LeBron would even be phased by the physicality of the 80's and 90's. he would be causing a ton more damage than he would be taking.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 12:17 PM
Imagine those hard fouls against a guy the size of Karl Malone coming at them like a freight train.

I literally laugh my *** off when people try and act like LeBron would even be phased by the physicality of the 80's and 90's. he would be causing a ton more damage than he would be taking.

Defensively Bron would be a beast back then too. I don't know if he has that goon or dirty mindset to maximize his physicality, he seems passive aggressive. Knicks had a bunch of goon types (who also tended to be dirty). Jazz had the sneaky dirty types led by their franchise guys. I guess Bron he'd probably naturally gravitate toward that style of play because he was more common. But with Bron's feet and strength, he'd be one of the best defenders for sure, especially if they allow more contact.

mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 12:19 PM
LeBron zero, and Jordan every single year he played. Jordan played in the hardest league in sports history, against the best defenses ever seen in the team game. LeBron plays in the weakest era of sports history, and nobody cares to guard him, so his stats are incredibly inflated. Hell, if Jordan played now, he would average 55 a game. LeBron wouldn't make an all star team back in the 90's.

Edit: :laugh: That shows how out of it I am this morning. Had no clue you were being sarcastic here. Should have put two and two together. Disregard my previous reply.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 12:26 PM
I'm sorry, dude. You and I normally agree on most things, but this is probably the single most insane take I've ever seen you post? Jordan would put up 55 a game? Lebron wouldn't be capable of winning a single ring in the 90s? Are you really thinking about this before you type? Because I've got to think this was one of those "I posted the first thing that came to my mind before really thinking about it" takes.

I think he was being sarcastic and actually defending Bron in a non-obvious way.

mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 12:27 PM
I get what the OP is getting at, but I don't think it's that easy to just swap them and pretend like the circumstances around those guys would be identical. First off, Lebron and Scottie wouldn't really work together. Scottie's strengths would be seriously limited next to Lebron, and I don't think Chicago would draft him. Secondly, we have no clue how these guys career paths would differ in different eras and different teammates. Does Jordan still retire twice and come back twice? Does Lebron still leave his original squad and come back?

There's way too many question marks around those two guys, who have very different personalities, played with very different supporting casts and took two very different career paths to have an honest conversation about this. In general, though, I don't think if we swapped these guys that we would look at their careers all that differently. Both guys played with crappy supporting casts the first few years of their careers, and I don't think they would have won titles before playing with great No. 2s.

The one advantage I will give Jordan is that I don't think a team as talented as the 2011 Heat were with Jordan at the helm would have underperformed in the Finals in the way that Lebron did in 2011. That's the biggest black mark on Lebron's career, and it's well deserved. So if you're looking for a "Jordan was clearly better than Lebron" argument, that's the best, fairest case to be made.

hallzi43
03-02-2018, 12:37 PM
I get what the OP is getting at, but I don't think it's that easy to just swap them and pretend like the circumstances around those guys would be identical. First off, Lebron and Scottie wouldn't really work together. Scottie's strengths would be seriously limited next to Lebron, and I don't think Chicago would draft him. Secondly, we have no clue how these guys career paths would differ in different eras and different teammates. Does Jordan still retire twice and come back twice? Does Lebron still leave his original squad and come back?

There's way too many question marks around those two guys, who have very different personalities, played with very different supporting casts and took two very different career paths to have an honest conversation about this. In general, though, I don't think if we swapped these guys that we would look at their careers all that differently. Both guys played with crappy supporting casts the first few years of their careers, and I don't think they would have won titles before playing with great No. 2s.

The one advantage I will give Jordan is that I don't think a team as talented as the 2011 Heat were with Jordan at the helm would have underperformed in the Finals in the way that Lebron did in 2011. That's the biggest black mark on Lebron's career, and it's well deserved. So if you're looking for a "Jordan was clearly better than Lebron" argument, that's the best, fairest case to be made.

Same with the Cleveland and Miami teams for Lebron. Dwayne Wade and Kyrie Irving fall off the wayside with Jordan taking over their roles. 2 guys that were huge to the success of Lebron James championship runs.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 12:42 PM
Same with the Cleveland and Miami teams for Lebron. Dwayne Wade and Kyrie Irving fall off the wayside with Jordan taking over their roles. 2 guys that were huge to the success of Lebron James championship runs.

Jordan is the better off the ball, that's why Pippen excelled with Jordan. OTOH, Wade and Kyrie aren't the same playmaker as Scottie is. But Jordan can get to his spots with and without the ball pretty easily. All three are scoring guards and closer-end of game types though so there might be some conflict and chemistry issues for sure.

ODB13
03-02-2018, 12:45 PM
Imagine those hard fouls against a guy the size of Karl Malone coming at them like a freight train.

I literally laugh my *** off when people try and act like LeBron would even be phased by the physicality of the 80's and 90's. he would be causing a ton more damage than he would be taking.

And wearing down... Which was my point. I wasn't proposing a tough guy contest.

His path through the season is a cakewalk compared to Jordan's (and I don't mean to insult cakewalks). His longevity and counting stats can be largely attributed to the lack of league depth, his historically weak conference, and the lack of physicality in his era.

mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 12:55 PM
And wearing down... Which was my point. I wasn't proposing a tough guy contest.

His path through the season is a cakewalk compared to Jordan's (and I don't mean to insult cakewalks). His longevity and counting stats can be largely attributed to the lack of league depth, his historically weak conference, and the lack of physicality in his era.

I get that Lebron's finals path is probably easier than Jordan's paths were, but I also think the Eastern Conference in his era is DRASTICALLY underrated. Those Pistons teams in the early-mid 2000s and Celtics teams in the late 2000s were damn good basketball teams. And those Pacers squads when Paul George was healthy were a lot better than people give them credit for. All three teams had some great series with Lebron over his career, had at least one future Hall of Famer and were dominant defensively.

In fact, I would argue that those Pistons and Celtics teams were as good as any team Jordan faced in the 90s in the East. And I think people are giving a little too much credit to the Eastern Conference of the 90s. Aside from Jordan and Pippen, who were the best players in that conference that Jordan's teams had to contend with? Ewing, baby Shaq and Hardaway (briefly), Reggie, Zo and Hardaway, and who?

Just for context, but two of the best teams in that conference that decade were the early 90s Cavs teams and late 90s Hawks teams, whose best players were probably Brad Dougherty and Dekembe Mutomobo, respectively. Are we really going to act like Jordan was facing elite teams in every single playoff series in the 90s? Because I can assure you, he wasn't.

ODB13
03-02-2018, 01:13 PM
I get that Lebron's finals path is probably easier than Jordan's paths were, but I also think the Eastern Conference in his era is DRASTICALLY underrated. Those Pistons teams in the early-mid 2000s and Celtics teams in the late 2000s were damn good basketball teams. And those Pacers squads when Paul George was healthy were a lot better than people give them credit for. All three teams had some great series with Lebron over his career, had at least one future Hall of Famer and were dominant defensively.

In fact, I would argue that those Pistons and Celtics teams were as good as any team Jordan faced in the 90s in the East. And I think people are giving a little too much credit to the Eastern Conference of the 90s. Aside from Jordan and Pippen, who were the best players in that conference that Jordan's teams had to contend with? Ewing, baby Shaq and Hardaway (briefly), Reggie, Zo and Hardaway, and who?

Just for context, but two of the best teams in that conference that decade were the early 90s Cavs teams and late 90s Hawks teams, whose best players were probably Brad Dougherty and Dekembe Mutomobo, respectively. Are we really going to act like Jordan was facing elite teams in every single playoff series in the 90s? Because I can assure you, he wasn't.

Spoken like a fan under the age of 25.

Teams weren't defined by individual players. They were more than a collection of stars. They were teams. The defense played by the Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Celtics, and Pistons, not to even mention the other ones you listed, was fundamentally better and more physical. It's not close. Also, the amount of quality teams in the East meant there were no nights off. Not during the regular season, not in the tournament. In the modern LEast, you can come up with a team or two that didn't suck, sure. But don't kid yourself. You can coast. What Jordan would have done to these sad sacks... And the rest he would have gotten for the Finals! He would dominate more today, statistically, and with team success. This watered down 3 team league would have been a piece of pie.

valade16
03-02-2018, 01:18 PM
While I think MJ likely would have won more titles in Bron's position (mainly by beating the 11 Mavs and not quitting vs the Celtics in 2010), I think it's very probable that LeBron actually wins more titles on those Bulls teams simply for the fact that unlike MJ, I couldn't see LeBron retiring after the first 3-peat.

ODB13
03-02-2018, 01:40 PM
While I think MJ likely would have won more titles in Bron's position (mainly by beating the 11 Mavs and not quitting vs the Celtics in 2010), I think it's very probable that LeBron actually wins more titles on those Bulls teams simply for the fact that unlike MJ, I couldn't see LeBron retiring after the first 3-peat.

And not quitting against the Mavs in 11.

LOb0
03-02-2018, 01:52 PM
Imagine those hard fouls against a guy the size of Karl Malone coming at them like a freight train.

I literally laugh my *** off when people try and act like LeBron would even be phased by the physicality of the 80's and 90's. he would be causing a ton more damage than he would be taking.

The bigger issue would be the individual defense rules. Bron takes advantage of this more than anyone blowing by guys. This would be so much harder in the 90s. Team defense is massively improved in todays game, but his blow by would be really effected.

mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 02:20 PM
Spoken like a fan under the age of 25.
Except I'm in my 30s, genius.


Teams weren't defined by individual players. They were more than a collection of stars. They were teams. The defense played by the Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Celtics, and Pistons, not to even mention the other ones you listed, was fundamentally better and more physical. It's not close. Also, the amount of quality teams in the East meant there were no nights off. Not during the regular season, not in the tournament. In the modern LEast, you can come up with a team or two that didn't suck, sure. But don't kid yourself. You can coast. What Jordan would have done to these sad sacks... And the rest he would have gotten for the Finals! He would dominate more today, statistically, and with team success. This watered down 3 team league would have been a piece of pie.
And you sound like that middle-aged fan who's convinced his era of his favorite sport was superior in every way and craps all over current professional sports for being soft. Wake up and quit being biased. You didn't make a single point here that wasn't broad, nonsensical conjecture. Also, you're acting like there's some massive difference between the two eras, but they're like 10-15 years apart. We're not comparing the 50s and a league with only white players and no shot clock to the 90s or 2000s. The rules or changes in talent haven't changed the game so much that these are two different sports.

Has Lebron been able to take it easier in some seasons and save himself for the playoffs? Sure. Has the Eastern Conference in previous years been so weak as to be a laughable challenge to any team Lebron has played for? Yes. But that's not to say that Lebron has never been challenged in the Eastern Conference and that every finals trip he's ever made should come with an asterisk as a result of it. That's ignorant and insulting. And if you've been a fan of the league as long as you claim to be, then you ought to know better.

MarkieMark48
03-02-2018, 02:42 PM
this is a very interesting question.. and 1 thing I think nobody is going to think about is how the difference in coaching comes into play... Early in their careers I think coaching was similar, but how does Lebron do ending up being coached by arguably the greatest coach ever to Jordan staying with guys that will be regarded as mediocre at best?

I would find it extremely hard to imagine Lebron leaving the game of basketball in his prime to chase a career in another sport. I also would find it difficult to imagine Jordan losing any of the finals lebrons heat teams were in.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 02:49 PM
And wearing down... Which was my point. I wasn't proposing a tough guy contest.

His path through the season is a cakewalk compared to Jordan's (and I don't mean to insult cakewalks). His longevity and counting stats can be largely attributed to the lack of league depth, his historically weak conference, and the lack of physicality in his era.

so LeBron, who is 33, has played 1121 NBA games, 217 playoff games, more than 52,000 minutes, never been hurt, and is still the best player on the planet after all that, would wear down?

Dude LeBron is #2 in minutes played in the playoffs and still dominating. He isn't getting worn down in any era. Ever.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 02:49 PM
The bigger issue would be the individual defense rules. Bron takes advantage of this more than anyone blowing by guys. This would be so much harder in the 90s. Team defense is massively improved in todays game, but his blow by would be really effected.

No it wouldn't be harder. Do you really think any great perimeter player wouldn't trade the rules today with the rules yesterday? Guys like Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, HATE zone. But they love 1 dude trying to stop them.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 02:51 PM
this is a very interesting question.. and 1 thing I think nobody is going to think about is how the difference in coaching comes into play... Early in their careers I think coaching was similar, but how does Lebron do ending up being coached by arguably the greatest coach ever to Jordan staying with guys that will be regarded as mediocre at best?

I would find it extremely hard to imagine Lebron leaving the game of basketball in his prime to chase a career in another sport. I also would find it difficult to imagine Jordan losing any of the finals lebrons heat teams were in.

I also find it hard to imagine Jordan in modern day social media. His gambling habits, and personality, would need to be curbed, or he would be crushed by fans, media, etc.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 02:52 PM
While I think MJ likely would have won more titles in Bron's position (mainly by beating the 11 Mavs and not quitting vs the Celtics in 2010), I think it's very probable that LeBron actually wins more titles on those Bulls teams simply for the fact that unlike MJ, I couldn't see LeBron retiring after the first 3-peat.

fair stance.

MarkieMark48
03-02-2018, 02:54 PM
No it wouldn't be harder. Do you really think any great perimeter player wouldn't trade the rules today with the rules yesterday? Guys like Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, HATE zone. But they love 1 dude trying to stop them.

People see highlights of what the Pistons did 2-3 times a game and think that's how every team played defense every possession of every game back then

Heediot
03-02-2018, 03:10 PM
People see highlights of what the Pistons did 2-3 times a game and think that's how every team played defense every possession of every game back then

For rivalry games and the playoffs, **** was a tonne more aggressive if you will. People get hacked flagrantly here and there to be sent a message to make them think twice about coming into the lane. Bron doesn't mind contact so it wouldn't effect him as much as others in general, but the more you went down the lane, the more the opposition would likely send a message. As long as you embrace the physicality and expect some punishment once in a while your fine.


No it wouldn't be harder. Do you really think any great perimeter player wouldn't trade the rules today with the rules yesterday? Guys like Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, HATE zone. But they love 1 dude trying to stop them.

I think what hurts him is his ability to attack a defense outside of being mostly a downhill player. This makes you more one dimensional in that era, where ISO basketball was more effective because of less zones and certain illegal defenses. Bron hasn't shown me to be a guy that can break down the d and kill you off in the mid-range. Pops exposed that the year he lost to the Spurs in the finals but forcing him to play the mid-range and jump shooting game. I don't think you can do that to MJ, he can hurt you in too many ways and has more counters IMO. Bron is great, but there are more concerns offensively vs. MJ if they switch era. Defensively though, I think Bron gains from that era.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 03:12 PM
People see highlights of what the Pistons did 2-3 times a game and think that's how every team played defense every possession of every game back then

it's selective memory man. Sure there were hard fouls. But they also didn't allow an inkling of zone. Meaning you could iso poor defenders to death, and guys like Jordan, feasted on teams at the rim. Those teams back then didn't play against offenses that could spread like today, which ironically developed because of zone being allowed. The 80's, the lanes were WIDE OPEN.

It's funny, a perfect swap if we had a time machine, is LeBron and Bird. If you sent LeBron back to 1985, he would literally destroy the NBA. And vice versa, imagine Bird in today's game...he would be amazing.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2018, 03:17 PM
It's just stupid dude. Jordan, was my favorite player. I think is the greatest to play the game. But he is treated like a mythical unicorn by so many here. LeBron James is every bit as good. The only difference is team success, and I have touched on that some. Jordan did not run into the teams LeBron has in the finals. He just didn't. I also get that fans from a current era of anything, tend to lie on extreme sides of the spectrum many times.

LeBron James, at the end of his career, will be 1B to Jordan's 1A. And the only difference, is Jordan won more championships. While it's not overly fair to judge players on team success, the greatest unfortunately are. But the wins and losses don't mean as much as how a guy played in those scenarios. But for Jordan, he played awesome, AND won. Which gives him the slight bump over LeBron, who played awesome, and lost a few, to superior teams than Jordan ever played in the finals.

Somewhere Pooh Richardson just shed a tear.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 03:21 PM
it's selective memory man. Sure there were hard fouls. But they also didn't allow an inkling of zone. Meaning you could iso poor defenders to death, and guys like Jordan, feasted on teams at the rim. Those teams back then didn't play against offenses that could spread like today, which ironically developed because of zone being allowed. The 80's, the lanes were WIDE OPEN.

It's funny, a perfect swap if we had a time machine, is LeBron and Bird. If you sent LeBron back to 1985, he would literally destroy the NBA. And vice versa, imagine Bird in today's game...he would be amazing.

You could drive to the rim back then, but it's not like today where half of these offense base their offense around a drive and kick scheme. Both eras use different ways to manipulate lane space, both have factors that also have lane congestion. Less stretch bigs, made driving to the lane more of timing and vision back then since their were more bodies down low. Today it's all about manipulating the big man and see how he reacts to the pnr, stretch the floor out with a stretch big to hep the big man respect the shooter. Psychologically it was tougher back then though, you had to be embrace the contact even if the hack may not necessarily come. In rivalry and some playoff games though you had to be even more aware of your potential surroundings. I don't think that's gonna **** with Bron dude is a tank.

MarkieMark48
03-02-2018, 03:21 PM
it's selective memory man. Sure there were hard fouls. But they also didn't allow an inkling of zone. Meaning you could iso poor defenders to death, and guys like Jordan, feasted on teams at the rim. Those teams back then didn't play against offenses that could spread like today, which ironically developed because of zone being allowed. The 80's, the lanes were WIDE OPEN.

It's funny, a perfect swap if we had a time machine, is LeBron and Bird. If you sent LeBron back to 1985, he would literally destroy the NBA. And vice versa, imagine Bird in today's game...he would be amazing.

A guy the size of Karl Malone with speed and the ability to dribble like a PG and can jump higher than pretty much anyone on the court would be horrible in ISO basketball

ODB13
03-02-2018, 03:22 PM
Except I'm in my 30s, genius.


And you sound like that middle-aged fan who's convinced his era of his favorite sport was superior in every way and craps all over current professional sports for being soft. Wake up and quit being biased. You didn't make a single point here that wasn't broad, nonsensical conjecture. Also, you're acting like there's some massive difference between the two eras, but they're like 10-15 years apart. We're not comparing the 50s and a league with only white players and no shot clock to the 90s or 2000s. The rules or changes in talent haven't changed the game so much that these are two different sports.

Has Lebron been able to take it easier in some seasons and save himself for the playoffs? Sure. Has the Eastern Conference in previous years been so weak as to be a laughable challenge to any team Lebron has played for? Yes. But that's not to say that Lebron has never been challenged in the Eastern Conference and that every finals trip he's ever made should come with an asterisk as a result of it. That's ignorant and insulting. And if you've been a fan of the league as long as you claim to be, then you ought to know better.

You say I make no points, and yet you respond to two of them by agreeing. Brilliant, I tell you.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 03:26 PM
Somewhere Pooh Richardson just shed a tear.

Dude, I am 42. Jordan was my religion haha

KnicksorBust
03-02-2018, 03:35 PM
Dude, I am 42. Jordan was my religion haha

It's funny about a year ago I was going through my old stuff in my parents house and don't ask me why but I had a Chicago Bulls hat and an Orlando Magic hat. I'm 34. That blew my mind.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 03:47 PM
It's funny about a year ago I was going through my old stuff in my parents house and don't ask me why but I had a Chicago Bulls hat and an Orlando Magic hat. I'm 34. That blew my mind.

big Horace fan?

Yeah, I had so much Jordan crap. When I look at old pictures from 86-94', I think I have something Michael Jordan on in around 80% of the pics.

IKnowHoops
03-02-2018, 04:29 PM
Lebron would easily be the greatest one on one defender ever if he played in the 90ís. All the hand checking allowed, heíd be impossible to get by, and darn near impossible to score on. He would shut down anyone one on one in his athletic prime.

IKnowHoops
03-02-2018, 04:33 PM
For rivalry games and the playoffs, **** was a tonne more aggressive if you will. People get hacked flagrantly here and there to be sent a message to make them think twice about coming into the lane. Bron doesn't mind contact so it wouldn't effect him as much as others in general, but the more you went down the lane, the more the opposition would likely send a message. As long as you embrace the physicality and expect some punishment once in a while your fine.



I think what hurts him is his ability to attack a defense outside of being mostly a downhill player. This makes you more one dimensional in that era, where ISO basketball was more effective because of less zones and certain illegal defenses. Bron hasn't shown me to be a guy that can break down the d and kill you off in the mid-range. Pops exposed that the year he lost to the Spurs in the finals but forcing him to play the mid-range and jump shooting game. I don't think you can do that to MJ, he can hurt you in too many ways and has more counters IMO. Bron is great, but there are more concerns offensively vs. MJ if they switch era. Defensively though, I think Bron gains from that era.

Dude! Your better than this. Brons mid range game and shot today are light years ahead of what they were during that spurs loss. Bron can tear you apart from anywhere today. Heís unguardable currently stop.

Jeffy25
03-02-2018, 04:55 PM
If LeBron had to get through the 90s east, with the Heat, Knicks, Pistons, Celtics, and Pacers teams, etc., with the way they played defense, his body would have broken down to the point where he would already be retired. The depth of teams in today's league, especially in the east, is a total joke. Simply comparing Finals matchups is simplistic to the point of idiocy.

Imagine LeBron having to actually work for the top seed each year?

Imagine Jordan being able to take most of the season off to prepare for a single seven game series?

So Jordan could handle it, but Bron, who has shown to be one of the greatest physical athletes we've ever seen, and the most durable....breaks down?

Jordan could have coasted in the regular season too. That was just never an option before the Spurs started doing it.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 05:40 PM
Dude! Your better than this. Brons mid range game and shot today are light years ahead of what they were during that spurs loss. Bron can tear you apart from anywhere today. Heís unguardable currently stop.

His shot has improved quite a bit. Which has opened up his game. His game is still north south based sprinkled in with more 3's. Nothing wrong with that considering his efficiency if really high. But there will be situations later (rounds) in the playoffs where he will have to make up for Kyrie's ability to break down tighter defenses.

ODB13
03-02-2018, 05:49 PM
So Jordan could handle it, but Bron, who has shown to be one of the greatest physical athletes we've ever seen, and the most durable....breaks down?

Jordan could have coasted in the regular season too. That was just never an option before the Spurs started doing it.

LeBron needs to be physically imposing to assert himself. Jordan didn't. Take away LeBron's physicality, and you don't have much left. Jordan's finesse game adjusted and improved dramatically. If LeBron had to get beat the way defenses in the 90s East beat players, he wouldn't be aging so gracefully.

And no, he couldn't have coasted during the regular season and made the top seed, let alone through the first two rounds of the postseason. The league was too deep then. Not this 3 super-team watered down nonsense.

ODB13
03-02-2018, 06:05 PM
If Jordan could sleepwalk through the East in the season and then again in the playoffs, rather than working past some of the toughest, goon filled teams in pro history, I believe he could stomp all over these lame *** super teams in the finals.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 06:07 PM
If Jordan could sleepwalk through the East in the season and then again in the playoffs, rather than working past some of the toughest, goon filled teams in pro history, I believe he could stomp all over these lame *** super teams in the finals.

you are overrating the **** out of the 90's east dude.

Jeffy25
03-02-2018, 06:08 PM
If Jordan could sleepwalk through the East in the season and then again in the playoffs, rather than working past some of the toughest, goon filled teams in pro history, I believe he could stomp all over these lame *** super teams in the finals.

Your memory is failing you massively here.

ODB13
03-02-2018, 06:08 PM
you are overrating the **** out of the 90's east dude.

It's night and day from the joke of a conference it's been in LeBron's career.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 06:08 PM
LeBron needs to be physically imposing to assert himself. Jordan didn't. Take away LeBron's physicality, and you don't have much left. Jordan's finesse game adjusted and improved dramatically. If LeBron had to get beat the way defenses in the 90s East beat players, he wouldn't be aging so gracefully.

And no, he couldn't have coasted during the regular season and made the top seed, let alone through the first two rounds of the postseason. The league was too deep then. Not this 3 super-team watered down nonsense.

of course if you take away LeBron's physical advantage, he suffers. So does MJ if you take his hand size, or first step. I mean, you are born with what you are born with. No pro athlete turns himself from a pile of **** into an elite athlete. That is like saying Shaq wouldn't have dominated as much if he weren't so strong. Duh

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 06:09 PM
It's night and day from the joke of a conference it's been in LeBron's career.

not really. The east had a very weak period of time the early 2010's, but overall, it's not as weak as you claim. Furthermore, so what? Jordan's body holding up playing 100 games year, after year, after year, for nearly a decade? Meh

ODB13
03-02-2018, 06:10 PM
People can twist themselves into pretzles trying to make a case for LeBron>Jordan, but it ain't happening.

1. Jordan never quit on his team in the middle of a playoff series or Finals. LeBron did twice. Pathetically.

2. LeBron plays in a league where 95% of the teams suck ***.

Jeffy25
03-02-2018, 06:11 PM
People can twist themselves into pretzles trying to make a case for LeBron>Jordan, but it ain't happening.

1. Jordan never quit on his team in the middle of a playoff series or Finals. LeBron did twice. Pathetically.
Naw, he just retired on them twice


2. LeBron plays in a league where 95% of the teams suck ***.

Well if that's the case, then that means LeBron only plays against one other good team in all of the league. And that's not true.

Bron has to beat super teams to get a ring. Jordan never faced competitions like that, and your memory of the East is failing you miserably.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 06:13 PM
People can twist themselves into pretzles trying to make a case for LeBron>Jordan, but it ain't happening.

1. Jordan never quit on his team in the middle of a playoff series or Finals. LeBron did twice. Pathetically.

2. LeBron plays in a league where 95% of the teams suck ***.

Jordan just left his team to pursue baseball haha, what do you mean he didn't quit on them?

Part 2, eh. I see where you are getting at, but in that same light, Jordan never went against a team as good as GS. Hell his own team wasn't as good as GS. If you want to crap on Lebron for the teams he plays against, we get to do the same for Jordan, right?

ODB13
03-02-2018, 06:14 PM
Naw, he just retired on them twice



Well if that's the case, then that means LeBron only plays against one other good team in all of the league. And that's not true.

Bron has to beat super teams to get a ring. Jordan never faced competitions like that, and your memory of the East is failing you miserably.

1. Retiring to do something else and quitting while on the floor like a whiny brat, twice, is apples and oranges.

2. Beating one super team in one seven game series is far less impressive than battling through a competitive league for a whole season, playoffs, and finals. And never losing in any of them.

Pfeifer
03-02-2018, 06:26 PM
Lebron is the best pure athlete the game has ever seen. Jordan is the best basketball player ever. IMO its LBJ mental weekness (which honestly isnt weak) is his downfall. Jordan was more assertive in big situations. LBJ has issues at times.

hallzi43
03-02-2018, 08:34 PM
I read an article that kinda made sense a while back. Lebron James in Jordan and Magic's era would have probably played a lot more like Magic Johnson than Michael Jordan. Lebron has never wanted to be a one man show and I think if we were to take him 2 decades back he would have worked the game a lot more like Magic. Dishing out to role players and averaging a 20 point/10+ as/7-10 rebounds a game.

Lebron has never been as cut throat a competitor as Jordan was. Jordan wanted all the fame, all the glory, and would throw it all in your face. Lebron just wants to win no matter who is on his team.

All the talk that Lebron wouldn't be able to hold his own against older defenses is crazy. The game in that age would be perfect for him because it thrived less on how good of a shooter you were and more on your ability to drive to the hole. Guys like Westbrook, Lebron, Giannis are actually forced out of their comfort zone in todays game because you need a perimeter game if you are going to be great. I would love if Giannis could just back guys down to the hoop over and over and take the ball to the rim consistently. But the Bucks would lose by 30 to the Rockets/Warriors who are pouring 3 pointers at record rates because of that.

hallzi43
03-02-2018, 08:41 PM
It's funny about a year ago I was going through my old stuff in my parents house and don't ask me why but I had a Chicago Bulls hat and an Orlando Magic hat. I'm 34. That blew my mind.

ha, 33 here. Somewhere collecting dust is a Chicago Bulls starter jacket and some Penny Hardaway/Grant Hill signed memorabilia.

Pfeifer
03-02-2018, 08:50 PM
Im 33. I had a twin towers poster (Duncan/Robinson), an Orlando Magic Shaq poster, a Magic Johnson poster. I loved Alan Houston. Nice being an unbiased fan living in Vancouver before the team came. I also got to see jordan drop 50 on the Grizzlies when I was in grade 6.

flea
03-02-2018, 09:48 PM
I read an article that kinda made sense a while back. Lebron James in Jordan and Magic's era would have probably played a lot more like Magic Johnson than Michael Jordan.

Maybe, probably. Lebron isn't as good in the post as Magic, but then he doesn't match up with guards as often. He definitely wouldn't be the slasher he is today in the hand-check era, or even the zone era. Lebron is much more of a combo between Magic and Drexler than he is anything like Jordan.

Jordan had elite footwork, almost from the get-go, a good pull-up J (which Lebron has never had), and top-flight quickness. The only thing he and Lebron really share is elite finishing ability, and even there I'd give the edge to Jordan. Once we start talking late-career Lebron vs. MJ the discussion gets even more divergent.

Heediot
03-02-2018, 09:54 PM
All the talk that Lebron wouldn't be able to hold his own against older defenses is crazy. The game in that age would be perfect for him because it thrived less on how good of a shooter you were and more on your ability to drive to the hole. Guys like Westbrook, Lebron, Giannis are actually forced out of their comfort zone in todays game because you need a perimeter game if you are going to be great. I would love if Giannis could just back guys down to the hoop over and over and take the ball to the rim consistently. But the Bucks would lose by 30 to the Rockets/Warriors who are pouring 3 pointers at record rates because of that.

Driving has always been a big part of the game no matter the era. I think with how the rules are today for the perimeter players, it caters to the pick n roll game and the drive more. I don't see Linsanity happening back then, and his game was mostly drive and kick sprinkled in with some 3's here and there. It's a ball handler league now. I think the rules make it conducive for ball handlers to get to their spots easier driving or not. Personally I don't think DRose gets an MVP with his style back then. You basically get a head start on your drives now with the no touch rules. There is a reason why perimeter players, especially primary ball handlers dominate the scoring today. It was more varied historically and leaned towards bigs in general.

flea
03-02-2018, 10:03 PM
Driving has always been a big part of the game no matter the era. I think with how the rules are today for the perimeter players, it caters to the pick n roll game and the drive more. I don't see Linsanity happening back then, and his game was mostly drive and kick sprinkled in with some 3's here and there. It's a ball handler league now. I think the rules make it conducive for ball handlers to get to their spots easier driving or not. Personally I don't think DRose gets an MVP with his style back then. You basically get a head start on your drives now with the no touch rules. There is a reason why perimeter players, especially primary ball handlers dominate the scoring today. It was more varied historically and leaned towards bigs in general.

It's ridiculous. Every ballhandler is given a path to the paint and an open pull-up J. That is way different from not only the NBA before 2010 or so, but from all college basketball as well. I understand you still have to make a play in the paint or hit a J, but it used to be that merely getting into the paint was a win on offense (it's still that way in college). In the NBA it doesn't matter because the rules say any ballhandler can get into the paint.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 10:12 PM
People can twist themselves into pretzles trying to make a case for LeBron>Jordan, but it ain't happening.

1. Jordan never quit on his team in the middle of a playoff series or Finals. LeBron did twice. Pathetically.

2. LeBron plays in a league where 95% of the teams suck ***.

But he did quit on his team. Somehow we forget that he up and walked away. On his team, regardless of whether you like his reasoning.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

brandt
03-03-2018, 12:02 AM
It's just stupid dude. Jordan, was my favorite player. I think is the greatest to play the game. But he is treated like a mythical unicorn by so many here. LeBron James is every bit as good. The only difference is team success, and I have touched on that some. Jordan did not run into the teams LeBron has in the finals. He just didn't. I also get that fans from a current era of anything, tend to lie on extreme sides of the spectrum many times.

LeBron James, at the end of his career, will be 1B to Jordan's 1A. And the only difference, is Jordan won more championships. While it's not overly fair to judge players on team success, the greatest unfortunately are. But the wins and losses don't mean as much as how a guy played in those scenarios. But for Jordan, he played awesome, AND won. Which gives him the slight bump over LeBron, who played awesome, and lost a few, to superior teams than Jordan ever played in the finals.
Thatís unfair to compare Jordan and Lebronís performances by the teams they played. As much as Jordan won, how do you know he couldnít have beaten those better teams? You donít and youíll never know, because he never had the opportunity.

Hawkeye15
03-03-2018, 12:30 AM
Thatís unfair to compare Jordan and Lebronís performances by the teams they played. As much as Jordan won, how do you know he couldnít have beaten those better teams? You donít and youíll never know, because he never had the opportunity.

I don't. But their production levels stand alone. They are each others only peers. So I don't think I am reaching saying Jordan wasn't beating the 14-17 west teams anymore than Lebron did with similar help.

GS is way better than anything Jordan faced.

hallzi43
03-03-2018, 01:01 AM
But he did quit on his team. Somehow we forget that he up and walked away. On his team, regardless of whether you like his reasoning.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Eh I don't think people would have looked at it that way if Lebron quit the NBA to pursue an NFL career or even if Jordan turned to baseball and was actually successful.

LOb0
03-03-2018, 01:38 AM
No it wouldn't be harder. Do you really think any great perimeter player wouldn't trade the rules today with the rules yesterday? Guys like Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, HATE zone. But they love 1 dude trying to stop them.

LeBron relies far more on blowing by his man than anyone. 90's defense would seriously cause problems for him more so than elite mid range shooters like Kobe or Jordan. Not to say he couldn't adjust. It just wouldn't work as much. Plus you always had a big in the paint in the 90s. That's two things that LeBron doesn't really have to deal with in this era.

2012 finals really come to mind because he couldn't buy a shot outside the paint. It would be a massive struggle if he also was being handchecked and physically played.

TylerSL
03-03-2018, 03:05 AM
I'm going with the assumption that Lebron would have been 18 when he was drafted in 1984 and Jordan would have been 21 in 2003.

Lebron's Bulls
They probably wouldn't be able to get to the Finals until 1991 similar to how it was with Jordan. Lebron got the Cavs to the Finals (2007) before he truly became the player he is, but I doubt he could have done that if he was competing against Larry Bird and the Bad Boy Pistons.

1991-Bulls make the Finals and lose to Magic's Lakers in six games. Lebron, much like he was in reality, would have been hailed as the "Chosen One" and been placed on the cover of Sports Illustrated at the age of 16. Considering how he handled all that pressure in the 2011 Finals, along with the fact that he would have been going against an already 5x champion in Magic Johnson, he would have played poorly. The Bulls would have been the favorites in the series, as they were with Jordan, and Lebron would have been blamed for them losing. Magic would be considered greater than he already is, winning his sixth NBA championship and another Finals MVP in his final year before the HIV announcement and retirement. Lebron's Finals record 0-1

1992-Lebron would have won his first NBA Championship. 1992 would have been a redeeming year, similar to how 2012 was for Lebron. The Bulls would be heavy favorites over the Blazers, as they already were, and won the series in six games. Lebron would be named Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 1-1

1993-Chicago would have made their third consecutive NBA Finals and won their second consecutive championship, beating Barkley and the Suns in six games. Lebron would have once again been Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 2-1

Lebron would not have retired as Jordan did. Keep in mind Jordan was 30 when he retired in October 93', Lebron would have only been 27. It's unlikely Lebron would have had a gambling issue or have to deal with the murder of his father, considering his father was never in his life to begin with.

1994-The Bulls make the Finals for the fourth consecutive season but as Lebron failed to three-peat in 2014, he would have failed to three-peat in 1994 as well. The 1994 Houston Rockets were a defensive juggernaut led by Hakeem, who was actually the best player in basketball after Jordan retired. I'll say the Rockets would have won the series in six games and Hakeem would have been Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 2-2

1995-The Bulls would again make the NBA Finals, overcoming Shaq and Penny in the ECF, and setting up a rematch from the previous year. This time however, the Bulls would have won. Injuries were catching up to the Rockets and even though they performed excellent in the 1995 playoffs, Houston would not have been able to defeat a Bulls team led by Lebron James and Scottie Pippen. I think the Bulls would take the series in seven games and Lebron would win his 3rd championship and 3rd Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 3-2

1996-The Bulls would make the Finals for the sixth consecutive year, and won their fourth championship in five seasons. I'm not sure the Bulls would have won 72 games however, as Jordan pushed that team to win more in the regular season than Lebron would have. I would still expect Lebron's team to be the favorites and I'd have them winning the series in six games. Lebron would once again be Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 4-2

1997-Chicago would once again be in the Finals, and Lebron would complete his first three-peat, beating the Jazz in six games. The 90's Bulls with Lebron would have been different than they were with Jordan, relying more on ball movement than isolation, but would have been similarly dominant. Pippen would have probably scored more also.Lebron James would win his fifth Finals MVP and his fifth title in six years. Lebron's Finals record 5-2

1998-The Bulls would make the Finals for the eighth year in a row, and win their fourth consecutive title. The 98' Jazz were on a mission and almost forced Jordan into a Game 7 on the road. I believe they would have forced Lebron's Bulls to seven games but Lebron would have won Game 7 in Utah. Lebron would become a six-time Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 6-2

If Chicago had a 32-year old Lebron in 1998 instead of a 35-year old Jordan, I don't believe 1998 would have been the end of the road for that core. Even with all the miles on Lebron's body playing in the Finals every year, he is proving in real life that his body would have been durable enough for him to continue playing. I believe Chicago would have kept the team together in an attempt to win more championships. Keep in mind the East, besides Chicago, was weak after Bird and the Bad Boy Pistons were no longer around.

1999-Lebron would carry the Bulls to their ninth consecutive Finals, this time facing the San Antonio Spurs. With the great duo of Duncan/Robinson, I believe the Spurs would beat the Bulls in six games. Duncan would win Finals MVP as a rookie. Lebron's Finals record 6-3

2000-Lebron would carry the Bulls to an astonishing 10th consecutive NBA Finals and Chicago would tie the 50-60's Celtics for most consecutive trips to the Finals. Lebron would be in his age 34 season, and much like today there wouldn't be a team in the East who could stop him. I want to note that Lebron and the Bulls would be all about the postseason, much like Lebron is today, and wouldn't over-exert himself in the regular season. Lebron would face the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and he would have gotten annihilated in the Finals, losing in five games. The Shaq/Kobe Lakers would have been to Lebron what the Warriors are today. Shaq would be Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 6-4

With the ongoing decline of Scottie Pippen and the looming threat of Shaq/Kobe, Lebron would have probably looked to leave Chicago at this point. As to where he would go, there could have been a number of possibilities and it's impossible to really say for sure, but if Lebron was still one of the top players in the league at 34, which I believe he would have been, he would have wanted to go to a team that could compete with those Lakers. In the summer of 2000, Orlando almost signed Tim Duncan to team him with Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill. I believe Lebron would have ultimately signed with Orlando instead and Duncan would remain in San Antonio. Lebron signs with the Orlando Magic

2001-Even with the injury to Hill, Lebron and McGrady take the league by storm and go to the Finals to face Shaq/Kobe. Lebron, now playing for the Magic, would be in his 11th consecutive Finals. While Lebron would stand more of a chance with T-Mac, the Lakers would still win the series in six games. Shaq wins Finals MVP. Lebron's Finals record 6-5

2002-Lebron, 36, would be slowing down but with T-Mac still in his prime, and Lebron there to make him better, they are back in the Finals against Shaq/Kobe. The injuries to Grant Hill would always make people say "what-if" about these Magic teams, assuming a mid 30's Lebron was in Orlando with him and T-Mac, but Shaq/Kobe would defeat Lebron for the third year in a row. This time in six games. Lebron's Finals record 6-6

2003-I believe this would have been the swan song for Lebron. At 37, he would no longer be the best player in the league, but still an elite player at times. T-Mac would be the #1 scoring option and probably the best player on the team. I think T-Mac and Lebron make it back to the Finals for the third year in a row, Lebron's 13th consecutive appearance in the Finals, and face the Spurs. 2002-2003 was Tracy McGrady's best season, and if he had Lebron James as his teammate it would have been even better. I would pick the Magic over the Spurs in the Finals in seven games. T-Mac and Lebron would have finally won the championship and Lebron would walk away from the game after winning his seventh NBA championship, breaking his tie with Magic Johnson (who would have won his sixth title in 1991). Tracy McGrady would win Finals MVP Lebron's Finals record 7-6

Lebron's career totals: 7 titles, 6 Finals MVP's, at least 4 League MVP's, 13 Finals appearances (all consecutive), widely regarded as the greatest player in NBA History (as Michael Jordan is today)

Jordan's Cavaliers
Note, I am not going to predict Jordan retires three different times and try and predict how he would have compared against the teams today. I don't think Jordan would have been able to do anything with the Cavs until 2007, just like Lebron.

2007-Jordan, at 25-years old, would have carried the Cavaliers to the NBA Finals just like Lebron. However they would suffer the same fate as the actual 2007 Cavaliers, and lose to the Spurs in five games. I actually think Jordan, and his mentality, would have stolen a game from San Antonio. That team would largely be considered to be the worst team to ever make the Finals, as the 2007 Cavs are, and people would respect Jordan more for carrying them to the Finals. Duncan would win Finals MVP Jordan's Finals record 0-1

2008-The brand new KG/Pierce/Allen Celtics would have taken Jordan out in the second round, just like they did to Lebron. The Celtics would go on to win the championship.

2009-Jordan would have carried the Cavaliers back to the NBA Finals, beating the Orlando Magic in the ECF, and face Kobe/Gasol. The league would have gone crazy for Jordan vs Kobe in the Finals (as everyone wanted Lebron vs Kobe that year). The Lakers were the better team and I would pick Kobe's Lakers over Jordan's Cavs in six games, Kobe would win his fourth championship and 1st Finals MVP. Jordan's Finals record 0-2

2010-With KG back healthy, the Celtics would have defeated Jordan again. From 2008-2010, there was no better team in the league than the Celtics when they were healthy. I will always believe that had KG not gotten hurt in 2009 and Perkins not got hurt in the 2010 Finals, those Celtics would have three-peated.

You have to take into account how bad Jordan's supporting cast would have been so like Lebron, I believe Jordan would have been looking to leave Cleveland in 2010. His next best players would have been Antwan Jameson and Mo Williams. I believe Jordan would be correctly disguised with Dan Gilbert and Cavalier management and would get the hell out of there. Cleveland wouldn't have been the special place to him that it was for Lebron, he would have left and never came back. I would say the logical thing for him to do exactly as Lebron did and join Wade/Bosh in Miami. Jordan would probably move to SF, but not change the way he plays. Jordan signs with the Miami Heat

2011-Jordan, Wade, and Bosh take the league by storm and easily make the Finals, defeating the Celtics and Bulls along the way. Jordan's Heat then crush the Dallas Mavericks in five games, kicking off a dynasty. Jordan wins his first title at age 29, along with Finals MVP. Jordan's Finals record 1-2

2012-Jordan and the Heat would go back to the Finals and face the young Oklahoma City Thunder. Jordan would sweep the young trio of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden and easily take home another title. Jordan would win Finals MVP again. Jordan's Finals record 2-2

2013-Jordan and the Heat would make their third consecutive Finals, this time against the Spurs. The 2013 Heat were the best in the Lebron/Wade/Bosh era so one could expect it would also would have been the best in the Jordan/Wade/Bosh era. This team probably would have won 70 games in the regular season with Jordan and would have won their third consecutive championship, beating the Spurs in seven games. Jordan would win his 3rd consecutive Finals MVP award. Jordan's Finals record 3-2

2014-Jordan would carry the Heat back to the Finals in a rematch with the Spurs. The 2014 Spurs played all-time great basketball in the Finals and so because of that, along with the regression of Dwyane Wade, the Spurs would win the series in 6 games. Kawhi Leonard would have been named Finals MVP and Jordan would face a looming free agency. Jordan's Finals record 3-3

I would say Jordan wouldn't want to leave the Heat the way Lebron did in 2014. Lebron wanted more than anything to bring a championship back to the city of Cleveland and going back in the summer of 2014 was his best chance at that. Jordan's motivations would have been different and I believe he wouldn't be willing to leave Pat Riley so quickly. Jordan would probably sign one year max deals the way Lebron started to in the summer of 2014. Jordan re-signs with the Miami Heat

2015-Jordan and the Heat make the Finals for the fifth year in a row. Even with blood clots ending the career of Chris Bosh and the aging of Dwyane Wade, the Heat would have traded for Goran Dragic and developed Hassan Whiteside into the player he is today. With Wade, Whiteside, and Dragic on his squad, Jordan would have had enough fire power to take down the up and coming Golden State Warriors, beating them in six games. This would have been Jordan's fourth title in five years, and yet another Finals MVP. Jordan's Finals record 4-3

2016-Jordan would make his sixth consecutive NBA Finals and face the Warriors in a rematch. Golden State, coming off a 73-win regular season, would be hungry to beat Jordan after coming up short the previous season. Jordan and the Heat would knock off the Warriors again and win the championship in seven games. Jordan would win game seven on the road and take home another Finals MVP. Jordan's Finals record 5-3

2017-Jordan, 35 years-old, would carry Miami back to the Finals for the seventh consecutive season. The Warriors would have just signed Kevin Durant and overwhelmed the league, including Jordan, and would win the Finals in five games. Durant would become Finals MVP. Jordan's Finals record 5-4

I believe after the 2017 season, Jordan would have looked to leave the Heat. He would have to if he still wanted to compete for championships after Durant joined a 73-win team. I believe Jordan would forced his way to Oklahoma City to join Russell Westbrook and Paul George to try and take down the Warriors. I believe the way Westbrook plays would attract Jordan and since players have more of a say in where they go, Jordan would choose OKC. Jordan would have worked out a sign-and-trade with the Oklahoma City Thunder in the summer of 2017

Jordan's career totals (still ongoing) 5 titles, 5 Finals MVP's, at least 5 league MVP's, 9 NBA Finals appearances, widely regarded as a top-5 player all-time (as Lebron currently is)

That's what would have happened if Lebron's and Jordan's careers were swapped IMO. I do not think Jordan would have faced some of the problems today that he faced back when he played and therefore would not have gone through multiple retirements. I also think MJ would have played into his late 30's as medicine and training are better today.

Lebron would have been younger than MJ when he was winning in Chicago so I can reasonably assume he would play for the Bulls longer. I can also assume Lebron would have been the same person he is today, so he would coast through the regular season and save his energy for the playoffs. Considering the league was more physical back then, he probably would have been even more cautious throughout the regular season. I do think joining Orlando would have been the move he would have made to combat Shaq/Kobe's Lakers.

LOb0
03-03-2018, 03:23 AM
You're high if you think that broken down 1991 Magic team without Worthy and Byron could have beat LeBron.

Also no way in hell does Jordan beat Orlando when Bron put up 38 PPG and still lost. That might be LeBron's greatest series in his career.

LeBron could've beat Boston in '10 if he just played like LeBron. Jordan certainly could've pulled that off.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2018, 03:42 AM
Eh I don't think people would have looked at it that way if Lebron quit the NBA to pursue an NFL career or even if Jordan turned to baseball and was actually successful.But thats the point isnt it? In bringing up that LeBron quit, the poster is clearly implying a lack of committment to the guys in that locker room. Regardless of why Jordan walked away he quite literally quit on his teammates by deciding to try baseball.

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mightybosstone
03-03-2018, 11:19 AM
You say I make no points, and yet you respond to two of them by agreeing. Brilliant, I tell you.

I'm not taking issues with those two takes. I generally agree with them. I disagree with your ridiculous old man takes that teams don't play defense in Lebron's era, aren't actual teams and that the league is "watered down." You have literally zero evidence to support those claims.

hallzi43
03-03-2018, 12:28 PM
But thats the point isnt it? In bringing up that LeBron quit, the poster is clearly implying a lack of committment to the guys in that locker room. Regardless of why Jordan walked away he quite literally quit on his teammates by deciding to try baseball.

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A bit a stretch point but I guess.

ODB13
03-03-2018, 12:57 PM
But thats the point isnt it? In bringing up that LeBron quit, the poster is clearly implying a lack of committment to the guys in that locker room. Regardless of why Jordan walked away he quite literally quit on his teammates by deciding to try baseball.

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I'm talking about a lack of commitment to the men he was on the court with, not in the locker room with. Quitting mid series, in full view of the world, and retiring in the off season to pursue something else couldnt be more different. And that LeBron did it twice negates all chances of overtaking Jordan.

Can anyone seriously imagine Michael Jordan on basketball court--in the finals, no less!--pulling a sad-sack, "I don't care anymore" act like LeBron did? Pathetic. LeBron has grown from it, thankfully. But when we are talking all time rankings, you can't erase history.

Jeffy25
03-03-2018, 01:19 PM
I'm talking about a lack of commitment to the men he was on the court with, not in the locker room with. Quitting mid series, in full view of the world, and retiring in the off season to pursue something else couldnt be more different. And that LeBron did it twice negates all chances of overtaking Jordan.

Can anyone seriously imagine Michael Jordan on basketball court--in the finals, no less!--pulling a sad-sack, "I don't care anymore" act like LeBron did? Pathetic. LeBron has grown from it, thankfully. But when we are talking all time rankings, you can't erase history.

Lol.

Dude, come on.

They both quit.

Bron stopped being aggressive on the court. Jordan completely stopped showing up

COOLbeans
03-03-2018, 02:07 PM
LeBron zero, and Jordan every single year he played. Jordan played in the hardest league in sports history, against the best defenses ever seen in the team game. LeBron plays in the weakest era of sports history, and nobody cares to guard him, so his stats are incredibly inflated. Hell, if Jordan played now, he would average 55 a game. LeBron wouldn't make an all star team back in the 90's.


:clap:
Heíd be an all star, but heíd be in the mold of Karl Malone and not MJ. A guy his size isnít hitting the 3 ball and theyíre taking the ball out of his hands due to the skill set of the other players, and there not being as many 3 point shooters surrounding him. Heíd be a back to the basket player. An all star yes, and maybe even an all time player, but not a top 15 guy all time if he played in the 80a and 90s.

COOLbeans
03-03-2018, 02:09 PM
It's funny about a year ago I was going through my old stuff in my parents house and don't ask me why but I had a Chicago Bulls hat and an Orlando Magic hat. I'm 34. That blew my mind.

Iím the same age and I had a Trailblazers hat. I think I liked the color and their logo from that era lol

ODB13
03-03-2018, 02:17 PM
Lol.

Dude, come on.

They both quit.

Bron stopped being aggressive on the court. Jordan completely stopped showing up

Yes, one quit, on court, mid finals. The other quit in the off season to do something else (after delivering 3 straight titles, not just before taking his talents to a super team in South Beach) and allowing his team time to adjust.

The thought of Jordan quitting on court is unthinkable. That, more than anything, separates the two.

flea
03-03-2018, 04:26 PM
You're high if you think that broken down 1991 Magic team without Worthy and Byron could have beat LeBron.

Also no way in hell does Jordan beat Orlando when Bron put up 38 PPG and still lost. That might be LeBron's greatest series in his career.

LeBron could've beat Boston in '10 if he just played like LeBron. Jordan certainly could've pulled that off.

It would be a closer series than what you're saying. I don't think it's a given at all that Lebron beats the '91 Lakers. First the Bulls outside of Jordan weren't that great. Pippen and Grant were still raw and the rest of the roster was either old or young journeymen (if you think Cartwright was ever more than a role player, which may be true, he certainly was not that in '91).

Second Lebron doesn't fit nearly as well on a team like the '91 Bulls, which were pretty much just a defense and transition team outside of Michael. Lebron isn't even in the same conversation as Michael as a half-court scorer. When Lebron has had problems in his career is when he has had to be a half-court scorer. Michael covered up a lot of his team's woes in the half-court.

Third Worthy and Scott only missed game 5 and the series was pretty much decided by then anyway. It's a whole different series from the start considering Worthy and Scott played the first four. True Worthy was slowed for the whole series because of the injury but he wasn't terrible. The Lakers definitely had more talent than the Bulls, they just lacked youth in their stars and the series sort of got away from them because of how athletic the Bulls were.

I'm not saying Lebron couldn't win that series, but it's no sure thing. Nor are the Blazers or Sonics Finals, and at least one of the Jazz ones (probably '97 but the Bulls were closer to losing the '98 probably). I'm also not even sure Lebron on the Bulls makes it out of the East during both of Jordan's 3peats. The Pistons gave Lebron teams trouble early in his career, and the Knicks were basically a supercharged version of that.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2018, 05:17 PM
I'm talking about a lack of commitment to the men he was on the court with, not in the locker room with. Quitting mid series, in full view of the world, and retiring in the off season to pursue something else couldnt be more different. And that LeBron did it twice negates all chances of overtaking Jordan.

Can anyone seriously imagine Michael Jordan on basketball court--in the finals, no less!--pulling a sad-sack, "I don't care anymore" act like LeBron did? Pathetic. LeBron has grown from it, thankfully. But when we are talking all time rankings, you can't erase history.

yeah... i mean i get what you are saying, but i don't think just because the season ends that the feeling of we are in this **** together really ends. relationships carry over. at the end of the day he walked out on them. it's pretty cut and dry. just to sort of illustrate the point, i don't remember if the day that MJ won that 3rd title if he announced that's it, i'm leaving or not. so correct me if i'm wrong there, but if there was any amount of time went by from when the season ended and when he made his official decision you can be sure there were a lot of people in that Bulls organization including teammates that were waiting anxiously to hear what the deal was. so it impacts lots of people. i didn't lose any respect for MJ for leaving, but he quit on his current team. most of us just can't do that and say hey i'm coming back like 2 years later that's the difference.

ODB13
03-03-2018, 05:27 PM
yeah... i mean i get what you are saying, but i don't think just because the season ends that the feeling of we are in this **** together really ends. relationships carry over. at the end of the day he walked out on them. it's pretty cut and dry. just to sort of illustrate the point, i don't remember if the day that MJ won that 3rd title if he announced that's it, i'm leaving or not. so correct me if i'm wrong there, but if there was any amount of time went by from when the season ended and when he made his official decision you can be sure there were a lot of people in that Bulls organization including teammates that were waiting anxiously to hear what the deal was. so it impacts lots of people. i didn't lose any respect for MJ for leaving, but he quit on his current team. most of us just can't do that and say hey i'm coming back like 2 years later that's the difference.

Again:

Yes, one quit, on court, mid finals. The other quit in the off season to do something else (after delivering 3 straight titles, not just before taking his talents to a super team in South Beach) and allowing his team time to adjust.

The thought of Jordan quitting on court is unthinkable. That, more than anything, separates the two.



There is no comparison between the two situations.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2018, 05:29 PM
Again:

Yes, one quit, on court, mid finals. The other quit in the off season to do something else (after delivering 3 straight titles, not just before taking his talents to a super team in South Beach) and allowing his team time to adjust.

The thought of Jordan quitting on court is unthinkable. That, more than anything, separates the two.



There is no comparison between the two situations.

i hear ya. i just don't particularly agree. it depends i suppose on what you think you owe the guys you go to war with.

ewing
03-03-2018, 05:39 PM
so LeBron, who is 33, has played 1121 NBA games, 217 playoff games, more than 52,000 minutes, never been hurt, and is still the best player on the planet after all that, would wear down?

Dude LeBron is #2 in minutes played in the playoffs and still dominating. He isn't getting worn down in any era. Ever.

Yeah physically Bron is insane. Mentally is the only place you see cracks sometimes


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ODB13
03-03-2018, 05:44 PM
i hear ya. i just don't particularly agree. it depends i suppose on what you think you owe the guys you go to war with.

In the middle of a series? Before you've ever won a chip? With the team that drafted you? Just before you skip town for a super team?

Or AFTER you won 3 titles for the team that drafted you? In the offseason? Not on the court?

I know who I'd want to take to war. No doubt in hell.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2018, 07:14 PM
In the middle of a series? Before you've ever won a chip? With the team that drafted you? Just before you skip town for a super team?

Or AFTER you won 3 titles for the team that drafted you? In the offseason? Not on the court?

I know who I'd want to take to war. No doubt in hell.Well i know, in that facet of the game I'd take jordan too. I'm just not onside with the mental gymnastics. Saying that Lebron quit, i know lots of people will side with you on that. But that is an observation. I'm just pointing out that MJ did it in a different way, but one that is factual.

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ODB13
03-03-2018, 07:52 PM
Well i know, in that facet of the game I'd take jordan too. I'm just not onside with the mental gymnastics. Saying that Lebron quit, i know lots of people will side with you on that. But that is an observation. I'm just pointing out that MJ did it in a different way, but one that is factual.

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As I've pointed out, the comparison between the two situations is just silly. But if you need to hang on to that, you do you.

Jamiecballer
03-03-2018, 09:00 PM
As I've pointed out, the comparison between the two situations is just silly. But if you need to hang on to that, you do you.

that's because you

a) obviously have some emotional baggage on this issue; see post #86
b) can't or won't look at this from anyones perspective except your own. like a fan.

Pfeifer
03-03-2018, 09:29 PM
I hated Jordan leaving and thought it was a ***** move but its nowhere close to LBJ and his mental lapses IMO. If you put Jordans brain in LBJ body he never loses. Thats my biggest issue with LBJ is that he could be way better than he is and thats crazy to think. Things like him congratulating himself before a record breaking game. MJ is a POS off the court but was nothing but stoic and amazing with anything on court.

ewing
03-03-2018, 11:39 PM
I hated Jordan leaving and thought it was a ***** move but its nowhere close to LBJ and his mental lapses IMO. If you put Jordans brain in LBJ body he never loses. Thats my biggest issue with LBJ is that he could be way better than he is and thats crazy to think. Things like him congratulating himself before a record breaking game. MJ is a POS off the court but was nothing but stoic and amazing with anything on court.

he was better then everyone else. there were other great players that played when MJ did. None of them were ever better then MJ in playoff series. Look it up you might find a series where they smoked the Heat in 3 games and Scottie had better numbers or a series early where its debatable b/t him and Bird with them both being monsters but that about it. Think about that. He wasn't just the best player overall, he was almost always the best player in the floor that moment. Hawk doesn't like this but he really was much better then everyone else.

ewing
03-03-2018, 11:42 PM
It would be a closer series than what you're saying. I don't think it's a given at all that Lebron beats the '91 Lakers. First the Bulls outside of Jordan weren't that great. Pippen and Grant were still raw and the rest of the roster was either old or young journeymen (if you think Cartwright was ever more than a role player, which may be true, he certainly was not that in '91).

Second Lebron doesn't fit nearly as well on a team like the '91 Bulls, which were pretty much just a defense and transition team outside of Michael. Lebron isn't even in the same conversation as Michael as a half-court scorer. When Lebron has had problems in his career is when he has had to be a half-court scorer. Michael covered up a lot of his team's woes in the half-court.

Third Worthy and Scott only missed game 5 and the series was pretty much decided by then anyway. It's a whole different series from the start considering Worthy and Scott played the first four. True Worthy was slowed for the whole series because of the injury but he wasn't terrible. The Lakers definitely had more talent than the Bulls, they just lacked youth in their stars and the series sort of got away from them because of how athletic the Bulls were.

I'm not saying Lebron couldn't win that series, but it's no sure thing. Nor are the Blazers or Sonics Finals, and at least one of the Jazz ones (probably '97 but the Bulls were closer to losing the '98 probably). I'm also not even sure Lebron on the Bulls makes it out of the East during both of Jordan's 3peats. The Pistons gave Lebron teams trouble early in his career, and the Knicks were basically a supercharged version of that.

LeBron has become a much better jump shooter in his late career but Anthony Mason body him with Pat Ewing waiting at the rim, dude better find a J or get in transition b/c it aint coming easy on the half court

Pfeifer
03-04-2018, 01:48 AM
he was better then everyone else. there were other great players that played when MJ did. None of them were ever better then MJ in playoff series. Look it up you might find a series where they smoked the Heat in 3 games and Scottie had better numbers or a series early where its debatable b/t him and Bird with them both being monsters but that about it. Think about that. He wasn't just the best player overall, he was almost always the best player in the floor that moment. Hawk doesn't like this but he really was better then everyone else.

Yes I agree. And no need to look it up, I watched it.

Bostonjorge
03-04-2018, 09:07 PM
They both still win but both will have less success.

James in my opinion wonít get the finals MVPís or at least not all of them. Pippen wanted badly to be the man. Their is that story of Pippen not leaving the bench because he wanted the last shot. With James, Pippen gets a bigger offensive role with James pass first style. I can see James excelling and more importantly love getting Pippen easy buckets and making the game easier for Pippen. Points per game was the most important stat back then. Other then that, I see James with the Bulls doing very well.

Jordan in this era will piss everyone off. I never would of thought Kobe would not want to play with Shaq, Howard not want to play with Kobe and Irving not want to play with James. I see Jordan punching Irving at practice, throwing soup at JR Smith and not letting Curry on team USA. When Jordan leaves Basketball this time it will be do to the beef with the owner Gilbert. I see him winning just as much as James did. If Green low blows Jordan they both getting suspended for game 6.

LA_Raiders
03-05-2018, 03:15 AM
MJs era is not a good fit for a Queen. They used to play hard nose D, and his crabs wouldnít fly back then either.

Kyben36
03-05-2018, 05:01 AM
I think that one thing people tend to... forget about or not mention with looking at the Lebron vs Michael debate. is Michael never quit. michael fought and inspired players to finish games even if they lost. they were all fighting to win. where as with Lebron. there have been multiple times that he has shown that and inspired teamates to keep fighting. and others where...... well lets be real. it seemed like he quit.

I think this debate is silly. But I think Michael gets players around him to play harder where as with lebron I think many times player play less hard and expect him to do everything for them. I dont think Both or Love become the backseat role players they did with Micahel. Michael would have motivated them and they both would be fighting for boards. hustling harder. and making more plays for the team.

so i put this one to michael. But i will say Micahel does not win a tittle with the rag tag team that lebron had first in cleveland. but i dont think he would have lost but maybe one after lebron left for Miami and back to cleveland.

Jeffy25
03-06-2018, 10:13 PM
I think that one thing people tend to... forget about or not mention with looking at the Lebron vs Michael debate. is Michael never quit. michael fought and inspired players to finish games even if they lost. they were all fighting to win. where as with Lebron. there have been multiple times that he has shown that and inspired teamates to keep fighting. and others where...... well lets be real. it seemed like he quit.

I think this debate is silly. But I think Michael gets players around him to play harder where as with lebron I think many times player play less hard and expect him to do everything for them. I dont think Both or Love become the backseat role players they did with Micahel. Michael would have motivated them and they both would be fighting for boards. hustling harder. and making more plays for the team.

so i put this one to michael. But i will say Micahel does not win a tittle with the rag tag team that lebron had first in cleveland. but i dont think he would have lost but maybe one after lebron left for Miami and back to cleveland.

Except he did quit, twice.

crewfan13
03-06-2018, 10:32 PM
I love how the caliber of defender is rarely brought up. Sure, defenders could hand check and crap like that. But Jordan wasnít going up against the same caliber athlete. Guys like Byron Russell werenít the same caliber of athlete that exist in the nba today.

Most 7 footers Jordan played were big ogres. Jordan wasnít trying to post up and shoot over Kevin Durant. And Durant isnít even that crazy unique. The league is full of long defensive specialists on the wing.

Jordan would still be great no doubt. But Jordan played in an era where he was the most skilled player in the league and he was one of the best, if not the best athlete in the league. He would still be one of the most skilled guys in the league, but he wouldnít be in a league of his own any more athletically.

FlashBolt
03-06-2018, 10:56 PM
I love how the caliber of defender is rarely brought up. Sure, defenders could hand check and crap like that. But Jordan wasnít going up against the same caliber athlete. Guys like Byron Russell werenít the same caliber of athlete that exist in the nba today.

Most 7 footers Jordan played were big ogres. Jordan wasnít trying to post up and shoot over Kevin Durant. And Durant isnít even that crazy unique. The league is full of long defensive specialists on the wing.

Jordan would still be great no doubt. But Jordan played in an era where he was the most skilled player in the league and he was one of the best, if not the best athlete in the league. He would still be one of the most skilled guys in the league, but he wouldnít be in a league of his own any more athletically.

And the perimeter players today are far better than Jordan's time. With the versatility of the SF position as well, Jordan would have to be defending much better players.. Seriously, Reggie Miller was a top five perimeter player at one point...

COOLbeans
03-06-2018, 11:27 PM
And the perimeter players today are far better than Jordan's time. With the versatility of the SF position as well, Jordan would have to be defending much better players.. Seriously, Reggie Miller was a top five perimeter player at one point...

Are you saying Reggie Miller wasnít a great perimeter player? Iím not sure what youíre saying here.

COOLbeans
03-06-2018, 11:29 PM
Except he did quit, twice.

I think you and I both know what he was saying. Retiring at the top of your game because youíre depressed due to your fathers murder is not quitting. Iím not really sure what youíre inferring by your comment

FlashBolt
03-07-2018, 12:00 AM
Are you saying Reggie Miller wasnít a great perimeter player? Iím not sure what youíre saying here.

He's overrated.

ODB13
03-07-2018, 12:08 AM
I think you and I both know what he was saying. Retiring at the top of your game because youíre depressed due to your fathers murder is not quitting. Iím not really sure what youíre inferring by your comment

He's throwing anything he can at the wall to deflect from the fact that his favorite player quit on his team twice on court in the middle of a series he was losing. He did this just before ditching his hometown team, having never won them a title, for a superteam in Miami, even going so far as to telecast his humiliating "decision" on ESPN.

Compare that to what Jordan did.

After winning three titles for the team that drafted him, he retired in the off-season, after his father died, to go do something else. He later returned to that team and won it three more titles.

It's apples and bowling balls. And it's just sad it needs to be clung to. Admit what happened, as a fan, and deal with it.

Jeffy25
03-07-2018, 02:14 AM
I think you and I both know what he was saying. Retiring at the top of your game because youíre depressed due to your fathers murder is not quitting. Iím not really sure what youíre inferring by your comment

If we are just going to put the petal to the metal on that narrative, then sure.


Yes, he's referring to quitting on the floor. I'd say straight up leaving your team entirely is quitting on them way worse.

Jeffy25
03-07-2018, 02:16 AM
He's throwing anything he can at the wall to deflect from the fact that his favorite player quit on his team twice on court in the middle of a series he was losing. He did this just before ditching his hometown team, having never won them a title, for a superteam in Miami, even going so far as to telecast his humiliating "decision" on ESPN.

Compare that to what Jordan did.

Like when Bron went ham on the record breaking 73-9, historic Warriors and came back from down 3-1 to average a triple double and explode on both ends of the court?

KingstonHawke
03-07-2018, 02:43 AM
I would take LeBron and Reggie Miller over Jordan and Pippen. And at every age LeBron has been the better player easily. You couldn't even do a straight swap because Jordan and Wade would suck playing together. They are way too similar. I moved to Miami same year LeBron did and that first year they lost to the Mavs because it was so hard for Wade to be at his best when he's not allowed to dominate the ball 24/7. I always wanted them to trade him for Howard. When he started spending more time replaced in the lineup with shooters like Allen and Lewis the Heat were much improved.

Jamiecballer
03-07-2018, 10:55 AM
I think you and I both know what he was saying. Retiring at the top of your game because youíre depressed due to your fathers murder is not quitting. Iím not really sure what youíre inferring by your commentYou are inferring, he is simply stating something factual. No need to guess what is meant here.

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ewing
03-07-2018, 11:17 AM
If we are just going to put the petal to the metal on that narrative, then sure.


Yes, he's referring to quitting on the floor. I'd say straight up leaving your team entirely is quitting on them way worse.

So LeBron has never walked on his team [emoji848]


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MarkieMark48
03-07-2018, 11:24 AM
I think you and I both know what he was saying. Retiring at the top of your game because youíre depressed due to your fathers murder is not quitting. Iím not really sure what youíre inferring by your comment

If LeBron did that now, what would you think of it? Would it be regarded as him being mentally weak and a quitter? Especially if he didn't really retire, just went and gave another sport a try.

valade16
03-07-2018, 01:23 PM
I think you and I both know what he was saying. Retiring at the top of your game because youíre depressed due to your fathers murder is not quitting. Iím not really sure what youíre inferring by your comment

I get it, but IT played like 5 days after his sister died. Brett Favre played the next day after his father died on MNF.

I'm not blaming him for retiring because of his father's murder, but it is a relevant point when discussing MJ/LeBron. LeBron has walked away from his team twice, as has MJ.

ODB13
03-07-2018, 02:40 PM
If we are just going to put the petal to the metal on that narrative, then sure.


Yes, he's referring to quitting on the floor. I'd say straight up leaving your team entirely is quitting on them way worse.

It's unsurprising that when you leave the realm of statistical analysis that you become entirely vapid.

WaDe03
03-07-2018, 03:10 PM
I would take LeBron and Reggie Miller over Jordan and Pippen. And at every age LeBron has been the better player easily. You couldn't even do a straight swap because Jordan and Wade would suck playing together. They are way too similar. I moved to Miami same year LeBron did and that first year they lost to the Mavs because it was so hard for Wade to be at his best when he's not allowed to dominate the ball 24/7. I always wanted them to trade him for Howard. When he started spending more time replaced in the lineup with shooters like Allen and Lewis the Heat were much improved.

:laugh:

Jeffy25
03-07-2018, 05:13 PM
It's unsurprising that when you leave the realm of statistically analysis that you become entirely vapid.

And you have a completely delusional perspective of basketball history.

ewing
03-07-2018, 05:34 PM
ODB use more big words you can do it!


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Sofnr
03-07-2018, 05:48 PM
Well if Jordan retiring is considered quitting on his team then obviously Lebron leaving Cleveland, and then leaving Miami, was also quitting on his teams right? So fine, Jordan quit on his team in the offseason. Lebron has done the same to two teams. Then Lebron also quit on teams during the season. Lebron still seems like the much bigger quitter there.

valade16
03-07-2018, 06:16 PM
Well if Jordan retiring is considered quitting on his team then obviously Lebron leaving Cleveland, and then leaving Miami, was also quitting on his teams right? So fine, Jordan quit on his team in the offseason. Lebron has done the same to two teams. Then Lebron also quit on teams during the season. Lebron still seems like the much bigger quitter there.

But they were the same teams, so you're essentially double punishing him. LeBron quitting on the Cavs during the playoffs the first time and then leaving them was part of one nebulous quit, not two separate and distinct quittings lol

MarkieMark48
03-07-2018, 06:53 PM
Well if Jordan retiring is considered quitting on his team then obviously Lebron leaving Cleveland, and then leaving Miami, was also quitting on his teams right? So fine, Jordan quit on his team in the offseason. Lebron has done the same to two teams. Then Lebron also quit on teams during the season. Lebron still seems like the much bigger quitter there.

I think retiring is a little different than playing out your contract and opting not to resign with them as a free agent. If you want to say Lebron quit on cleveland the 1st time, I'll buy that. But I'm not buying him quitting on Miami.

ewing
03-08-2018, 04:02 PM
I think retiring is a little different than playing out your contract and opting not to resign with them as a free agent. If you want to say Lebron quit on cleveland the 1st time, I'll buy that. But I'm not buying him quitting on Miami.

You donít have buy into that whole evolution thing either. Heís still a quitter


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KingstonHawke
03-08-2018, 04:30 PM
Well if Jordan retiring is considered quitting on his team then obviously Lebron leaving Cleveland, and then leaving Miami, was also quitting on his teams right? So fine, Jordan quit on his team in the offseason. Lebron has done the same to two teams. Then Lebron also quit on teams during the season. Lebron still seems like the much bigger quitter there.

Not choosing a team as a FA is the same as quitting right before the season starts? Y'all will say anything to win a debate lol.

ODB13
03-08-2018, 05:14 PM
Not choosing a team as a FA is the same as quitting right before the season starts? Y'all will say anything to win a debate lol.

How about QUITTING ON THE COURT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NBA FINALS.

Because only one of these players did that.

Jeffy25
03-08-2018, 07:51 PM
How about QUITTING ON THE COURT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NBA FINALS.

Because only one of these players did that.

Let's actually compare their careers:

Bron
30,512 points
8242 rebounds
8040 assists
1845 steals
874 blocks
.503 FG%
.344 3%
27.6 PER
.586 TS%
216 WS
43,646 minutes

Jordan
32,292 points
6672 rebounds
5633 assists
2514 steals
893 blocks
.497 FG%
.327 3%
27.9 PER
.569 TS%
214.0 WS
41,011 minutes

Bron is clearly the superior regular season player, though, per minute, Jordan may have a slightly better per minute value

Playoffs

Bron - 144-73 (.664%)
6163 points
1922 rebounds
1489 assists
389 steals
209 blocks
.485 FG%
.330 3%
27.9 PER
.574 TS%
45.8 WS
9127 minutes

Jordan playoffs - 119-60 (.665%)
5987 points
1152 rebounds
1022 assists
376 steals
158 blocks
.487 FG%
.332 3%
28.6 PER
.568 TS%
39.8 WS
7474 minutes




Jordan is slightly better in the playoffs per minute as well.











But here is the biggest, most fantastic difference between the two.

LeBron isn't done playing. He will play in the playoffs again this year, he will likely play several more years after this. He will likely play anywhere between 25-45% more minutes than Jordan ever will in the regular season and the playoffs. When the per minute differences are negligible, but one plays that much more? He takes over that per minute rate with sheer volume.


That, and Jordan has only faced one opponent in the Finals as tough as Bron ever has. His 98 Jazz had the same ELO rating as the 07 Spurs....Jordan at the end of his peak, and baby Bron. The rest of Bron's finals opponents have been demonstrably, and remarkably much superior than anything Jordan ever faced. Jordan certainly never came anywhere close to facing a team like the Warriors. And he couldn't have beat them.


I bolded a stat people may not know. Jordan and Bron have basically the same lifetime playoff winning percentages. But Bron has played in 38 more games.

FlashBolt
03-08-2018, 09:00 PM
Let's actually compare their careers:

Bron
30,512 points
8242 rebounds
8040 assists
1845 steals
874 blocks
.503 FG%
.344 3%
27.6 PER
.586 TS%
216 WS
43,646 minutes

Jordan
32,292 points
6672 rebounds
5633 assists
2514 steals
893 blocks
.497 FG%
.327 3%
27.9 PER
.569 TS%
214.0 WS
41,011 minutes

Bron is clearly the superior regular season player, though, per minute, Jordan may have a slightly better per minute value

Playoffs

Bron - 144-73 (.664%)
6163 points
1922 rebounds
1489 assists
389 steals
209 blocks
.485 FG%
.330 3%
27.9 PER
.574 TS%
45.8 WS
9127 minutes

Jordan playoffs - 119-60 (.665%)
5987 points
1152 rebounds
1022 assists
376 steals
158 blocks
.487 FG%
.332 3%
28.6 PER
.568 TS%
39.8 WS
7474 minutes




Jordan is slightly better in the playoffs per minute as well.











But here is the biggest, most fantastic difference between the two.

LeBron isn't done playing. He will play in the playoffs again this year, he will likely play several more years after this. He will likely play anywhere between 25-45% more minutes than Jordan ever will in the regular season and the playoffs. When the per minute differences are negligible, but one plays that much more? He takes over that per minute rate with sheer volume.


That, and Jordan has only faced one opponent in the Finals as tough as Bron ever has. His 98 Jazz had the same ELO rating as the 07 Spurs....Jordan at the end of his peak, and baby Bron. The rest of Bron's finals opponents have been demonstrably, and remarkably much superior than anything Jordan ever faced. Jordan certainly never came anywhere close to facing a team like the Warriors. And he couldn't have beat them.


I bolded a stat people may not know. Jordan and Bron have basically the same lifetime playoff winning percentages. But Bron has played in 38 more games.

The truth is hard to admit.. Jordan's Finals opponents never came close to the opponents LeBron has faced.. and also consider that he had Pippen - who had more assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks than MJ in their six NBA Finals together.. Jordan got lucky. His management was smart enough to get Jordan some quality guys that fit his style. Pippen+Rodman? Name two better fits for a ball-dominant 1st option scorer.