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valade16
03-01-2018, 09:20 PM
So we do a “top 25 greatest players of all-time list” here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O’Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant
16. Jerry West
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Oscar Robertson

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 10:00 PM
Kevin Garnett.

One of the best passing big men of all-time and one of the best defensive players of all-time. A leader who elevates the game of his teammates and can be paired with anybody. The perfect player to build around.

HandsOnTheWheel
03-01-2018, 10:04 PM
Sir Charles

ewing
03-01-2018, 10:07 PM
Kevin Garnett.

One of the best passing big men of all-time and one of the best defensive players of all-time. A leader who elevates the game of his teammates and can be paired with anybody. The perfect player to build around.

You just have fun trying to convince people of things


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Jamiecballer
03-01-2018, 10:26 PM
Kevin Garnett.

One of the best passing big men of all-time and one of the best defensive players of all-time. A leader who elevates the game of his teammates and can be paired with anybody. The perfect player to build around.What this guy said

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valade16
03-01-2018, 11:34 PM
I think you could make a case that Dirk had as little a supporting cast for periods as KG in Minnesota, and he was able to lead them farther than KG did no?

ewing
03-02-2018, 12:03 AM
I think you could make a case that Dirk had as little a supporting cast for periods as KG in Minnesota, and he was able to lead them farther than KG did no?

You could say Ewing’s second best player was John Starks or J Kidd’s was K-Mart, or Reggie Miller did it with Dale Davis. KG was a robin


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ewing
03-02-2018, 12:09 AM
what makes KG one of the best passing bigs ever? Why? Bc he averaged 6 assists once? Marbury was good assist guy. The number by itself means little. He was a good passer but he wasnt Bird or Sabonis in terms of feel.


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KnicksorBust
03-02-2018, 09:13 AM
I think you could make a case that Dirk had as little a supporting cast for periods as KG in Minnesota, and he was able to lead them farther than KG did no?

I want to say this without being rude... but get outta here with that nonsense. :)

Spree/Wally/Cassell/Hassell vs. Kidd/Marion/Chandler/Terry

If I wanted to nit-pick I could bring up how well Peja/Stevenson shot from 3pt or some of the big games that JJ Barea had during that title run but I don't even need to do that. Just the starting lineup shows how lopsided the roster was in Dirk's favor. That Dallas team that won a title was balanced perfectly.

KnicksorBust
03-02-2018, 09:15 AM
what makes KG one of the best passing bigs ever? Why? Bc he averaged 6 assists once? Marbury was good assist guy. The number by itself means little. He was a good passer but he wasnt Bird or Sabonis in terms of feel.


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Because he could play like a guard?

mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 12:15 PM
Peak Barkley > Peak KG. Don't have time to make a thorough case right now, but look at the guy's numbers from 88-91 in Philly compared to KG's peak in Minnesota. Then compare his playoff numbers those years compared to KG's playoff numbers in Minnesota.

And even if you're not a numbers guy, I want you to really take a step back and ask yourselves: "If I can have one guy to help me win a Game 7 of a playoff series, would I rather have Sir Charles or KG?" I think you'd be crazy to answer Garnett over Chuck.

ewing
03-02-2018, 12:16 PM
Because he could play like a guard?

Then why couldn’t you successfully run an offense through him?


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Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 12:25 PM
I think you could make a case that Dirk had as little a supporting cast for periods as KG in Minnesota, and he was able to lead them farther than KG did no?His job was to shoot essentially so i take issue with you characterizing it as "leading"

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ewing
03-02-2018, 12:31 PM
His job was to shoot essentially so i take issue with you characterizing it as "leading"

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On the possessions where it was Dirk job to shoot was KG job to watch when his teams were successful? Is watching leading? Also why do you think JT always seemed wide open shooting 3s but not Wally?


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valade16
03-02-2018, 01:24 PM
I want to say this without being rude... but get outta here with that nonsense. :)

Spree/Wally/Cassell/Hassell vs. Kidd/Marion/Chandler/Terry

If I wanted to nit-pick I could bring up how well Peja/Stevenson shot from 3pt or some of the big games that JJ Barea had during that title run but I don't even need to do that. Just the starting lineup shows how lopsided the roster was in Dirk's favor. That Dallas team that won a title was balanced perfectly.

Ok, in 2011, but what about 2006? He led the Mavs to the Finals with Jason Terry, Josh Howard, DeSagana Diop and Eric Dampier. Adrian Griffin started 45 games for them and averaged 4.6 PPG.

Are we going to say that Terry and Howard are appreciable better than Sprewell or Cassell?

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2018, 01:30 PM
Ok, in 2011, but what about 2006? He led the Mavs to the Championship with Jason Terry, Josh Howard, DeSagana Diop and Eric Dampier. Adrian Griffin started 45 games for them and averaged 4.6 PPG.

Are we going to say that Terry and Howard are appreciable better than Sprewell or Cassell?

Yea because Dirk has this notion (especially when it comes to the Dirk vs KG debate) that he’s had so much help throughout his entire career when in reality it was him and a bunch of role players

valade16
03-02-2018, 01:32 PM
His job was to shoot essentially so i take issue with you characterizing it as "leading"

C'mon, you can't be serious with this? Dirk definitely led the Mavericks. He actually got better in the playoffs and played better when it mattered, KG didn't. Dirk's regular season TS% is 57.8. His playoff TS% is 57.7. He went from 21.3 PPG in the regular season to 25.3 in the playoffs. KG's regular season TS% is 54.6. His playoff TS% is 52.5. 52.5% is near AI levels of scoring efficiency, it is bizarre that AI gets copious amounts of crap for it and for KG it is literally buried.

Dirk won Finals MVP defeating the Heat and KG didn't even win Finals MVP on the Celtics, Pierce did.


If you want to say Dirk never led because he could only shoot, you are more than welcome to, but everybody knows that is a pretty laughable take of how much Dirk meant to the Mavs. I can say KG never led because anytime he tried, he shrunk worse than a man's balls in the Arctic.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 01:46 PM
On the possessions where it was Dirk job to shoot was KG job to watch when his teams were successful? Is watching leading? Also why do you think JT always seemed wide open shooting 3s but not Wally?


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i will answer your last question by posing another. why do you think JT is in the league still and Wally hasn't been seen in a decade??

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 01:49 PM
C'mon, you can't be serious with this? Dirk definitely led the Mavericks. He actually got better in the playoffs and played better when it mattered, KG didn't. Dirk's regular season TS% is 57.8. His playoff TS% is 57.7. He went from 21.3 PPG in the regular season to 25.3 in the playoffs. KG's regular season TS% is 54.6. His playoff TS% is 52.5. 52.5% is near AI levels of scoring efficiency, it is bizarre that AI gets copious amounts of crap for it and for KG it is literally buried.

Dirk won Finals MVP defeating the Heat and KG didn't even win Finals MVP on the Celtics, Pierce did.


If you want to say Dirk never led because he could only shoot, you are more than welcome to, but everybody knows that is a pretty laughable take of how much Dirk meant to the Mavs. I can say KG never led because anytime he tried, he shrunk worse than a man's balls in the Arctic.

i'm not saying Dirk is any less important to the Mavs. what i am saying is his responsibilities on the basketball court compared to KG's is not even close, in his pre-Boston days at least. i don't put much stock into his Boston days because he wasn't the same after a couple years and he made Bosh-like sacrifices in that big 3. in Minnesota he pretty much was the system, on both ends.

valade16
03-02-2018, 01:49 PM
i will answer your last question by posing another. why do you think JT is in the league still and Wally hasn't been seen in a decade??

Well Wally retired after playing 20 MPG and scoring 7 points on quality efficiency at 31. Maybe he felt he couldn't do it? He was contributing about as much as Jason Terry has contributed the past 5 years. Perhaps he didn't want to hang around providing minimal impact for a half decade just to collect a check?

WaDe03
03-02-2018, 01:50 PM
After throwing a bowl of soup at his coach I would like to nominate JR Smith.

valade16
03-02-2018, 01:53 PM
i'm not saying Dirk is any less important to the Mavs. what i am saying is his responsibilities on the basketball court compared to KG's is not even close, in his pre-Boston days at least. i don't put much stock into his Boston days because he wasn't the same after a couple years and he made Bosh-like sacrifices in that big 3. in Minnesota he pretty much was the system, on both ends.

And Dirk was the system for the Mavs offensively, the main difference is Dirk doing that actually made the Mavs have an elite offense for pretty much his entire peak. The gravity that Dirk drew offensively far surpassed KG's impact offensively.

So yeah you can say KG was asked to do more in Minnesota than Dirk did in Dallas, but he failed at it, so how much more credit for that should he get? KG's first year in Boston he was still healthy and we saw his optimal usage. He is better suited as a complementary offensive piece (a 2nd scorer) so he can focus on defense and providing superstar impact on that end.

mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 02:09 PM
At this point, I honestly think we could just call KG, Barkley and Dirk 19A, 19B and 19C and move on. The differences between them are so minor and nitpicky, and they appear to be the obvious choices for the next three spots. Arguing who the second best PF of all-time is always leads to a ton of debate, and I honestly think my opinion shifts on any given day depending on how I'm feeling and what factors I'm putting more emphasis on.

There is no right or wrong answer here... (except Barkley should be 19A).

valade16
03-02-2018, 02:14 PM
At this point, I honestly think we could just call KG, Barkley and Dirk 19A, 19B and 19C and move on. The differences between them are so minor and nitpicky, and they appear to be the obvious choices for the next three spots. Arguing who the second best PF of all-time is always leads to a ton of debate, and I honestly think my opinion shifts on any given day depending on how I'm feeling and what factors I'm putting more emphasis on.

There is no right or wrong answer here... (except Barkley should be 19A).

If we're going to do that shouldn't we make Malone as 19D? He was greater longer than any of them and if we're going to give a pass on KG's playoff failures, we should extend the same courtesy to Malone.

Heck, Malone led the Jazz to 2 straight Finals vs. MJ. How different would Malone's legacy be if he had won 2 titles?

ewing
03-02-2018, 03:04 PM
i will answer your last question by posing another. why do you think JT is in the league still and Wally hasn't been seen in a decade??

Wally works for MSG network. I see him all the the time.


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mightybosstone
03-02-2018, 03:07 PM
If we're going to do that shouldn't we make Malone as 19D? He was greater longer than any of them and if we're going to give a pass on KG's playoff failures, we should extend the same courtesy to Malone.

Heck, Malone led the Jazz to 2 straight Finals vs. MJ. How different would Malone's legacy be if he had won 2 titles?

No. Because I hate him. You should know this about me by now. :p

valade16
03-02-2018, 03:15 PM
No. Because I hate him. You should know this about me by now. :p

:laugh2: Fair enough.

The only non-Blazers jerseys I had growing up were a KG T-Wolves, a Sprewell Knicks and a Hakeem Rockets (unfortunately it was the dark blue pinstripe abomination).

So I actually loved KG growing up and was rooting for that KG/Sprewell/Cassell team to win, despite how much I seem to be denigrating him on here lol

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 03:15 PM
I think you could make a case that Dirk had as little a supporting cast for periods as KG in Minnesota, and he was able to lead them farther than KG did no?

ehhh, could we? The only year KG had real help he went to the WCF's. That being said, he was a chronic underperformer. But the Wolves went as KG did. If he wasn't the best player in the series, they had no chance.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 03:16 PM
No. Because I hate him. You should know this about me by now. :p

I ****ing love Karl Malone convos, because it brings out the irrational in you hahahaha

KnicksorBust
03-02-2018, 03:31 PM
Ok, in 2011, but what about 2006? He led the Mavs to the Finals with Jason Terry, Josh Howard, DeSagana Diop and Eric Dampier. Adrian Griffin started 45 games for them and averaged 4.6 PPG.

Are we going to say that Terry and Howard are appreciable better than Sprewell or Cassell?

During those 1 individual seasons I'll concede it's a probably a wash but if you look at the 2006 run he knocked off a Memphis team that never went anywhere, a phoenix team pre-stoudemire, and then 1 amazing series against the Spurs where Terry averaged 20ppg, Howard 16ppg, Stackhouse 16ppg, Devin Harris 13ppg while Duncan averaged 32ppg on 56% FG. Duncan was the best player in that series. Is this really the reason why we are anointing Dirk > KG? Because 12 years ago... in a series he got outplayed by Tim Duncan... Dirk's Mavs beat the Spurs before losing to the Heat in an epic choke. That's not selling me. KG does everything better than Dirk but score. Yes I love having a go-to player and yes I love players that are "clutch" but in terms of just an overall basketball player I would pick Kevin Garnett over Dirk all day. He brings so much more to the table and is so much easier to build around. I can literally play him with anybody.

valade16
03-02-2018, 03:41 PM
During those 1 individual seasons I'll concede it's a probably a wash but if you look at the 2006 run he knocked off a Memphis team that never went anywhere, a phoenix team pre-stoudemire, and then 1 amazing series against the Spurs where Terry averaged 20ppg, Howard 16ppg, Stackhouse 16ppg, Devin Harris 13ppg while Duncan averaged 32ppg on 56% FG. Duncan was the best player in that series. Is this really the reason why we are anointing Dirk > KG? Because 12 years ago... in a series he got outplayed by Tim Duncan... Dirk's Mavs beat the Spurs before losing to the Heat in an epic choke. That's not selling me. KG does everything better than Dirk but score. Yes I love having a go-to player and yes I love players that are "clutch" but in terms of just an overall basketball player I would pick Kevin Garnett over Dirk all day. He brings so much more to the table and is so much easier to build around. I can literally play him with anybody.

Well first, Duncan outplayed him that series... but not by much. Dirk averaged 27 PPG, 13 RPG and shot 65% TS% that series. in Game 7 when Duncan had 41 pts and 15 rebounds Dirk had 37 points and 15 rebounds. In fact, KG never did as good in a series vs Duncan as Dirk did (though he never let Duncan do that good either), and when Dirk and KG faced in the playoffs, Dirk thoroughly outplayed KG (though he had a better team at that point).

So that's not the only reason I'm anointing Dirk > KG. I'm doing so because despite the fact that KG is a better all around player for the first 40 minutes of the game, Dirk is simply the vastly better player when it matters.

Chronz
03-02-2018, 04:19 PM
Because he could play like a guard?
Playmaker or facilitator. But in terms of passing and vision, I don't see it

Chronz
03-02-2018, 04:22 PM
i'm not saying Dirk is any less important to the Mavs. what i am saying is his responsibilities on the basketball court compared to KG's is not even close, in his pre-Boston days at least. i don't put much stock into his Boston days because he wasn't the same after a couple years and he made Bosh-like sacrifices in that big 3. in Minnesota he pretty much was the system, on both ends.

He was better on both ends in Boston. Dirk had more responsibilities when he won if you want to put it in your terms tho

Chronz
03-02-2018, 04:28 PM
ehhh, could we? The only year KG had real help he went to the WCF's. That being said, he was a chronic underperformer. But the Wolves went as KG did. If he wasn't the best player in the series, they had no chance.
Yeah and he didn't exactly impress during that run. Point?

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 04:29 PM
Wally works for MSG network. I see him all the the time.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDoes he really? That's hilarious

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Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 04:30 PM
Yeah and he didn't exactly impress during that run. Point?

I don't think KG had much of a roster around him is the point.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2018, 04:38 PM
In that 02 series when the mavs and twolves matched up. Kg did have two guys score over 20 to help him with the offensive load lol. Difference was Dirk averaged nearly 10 more pts than KG did and that was when the mavs were supposed to have the worst defensive front court in the league

SpeeMN
03-02-2018, 04:40 PM
KG had no players with him other than when he went to the western conference finals and then with Boston. So its obvious that if he has players around him, the team can succeed past the first round of the playoffs. When Tim Duncan was winning MVP, KG was the only player in the league people knew was as good, just not winning as much. KG had insane stats for a PF, and it was all legit. Barkley is great too, but KG was MR. DEFENSE.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 04:56 PM
In that 02 series when the mavs and twolves matched up. Kg did have two guys score over 20 to help him with the offensive load lol. Difference was Dirk averaged nearly 10 more pts than KG did and that was when the mavs were supposed to have the worst defensive front court in the league

so Nash and Finley didn't score a ton of points that series?

I remember that series. Dirk, and Finley, were laughably hot. You guys doubled us up on 3's made.

valade16
03-02-2018, 05:10 PM
so Nash and Finley didn't score a ton of points that series?

I remember that series. Dirk, and Finley, were laughably hot. You guys doubled us up on 3's made.

When I was in HS my dad took me to a couple of the Mavs/Blazers playoff games when the Blazers were down 0-3 and came back to tie it. When I was watching, all I remember from that series was coming away thinking "this Steve Nash dude is incredible" because I didn't really know who he was at that point and he was able to effortlessly carve the Blazers defense up and get to the rim at will and pass and shoot.

I was definitely not surprised when he exploded in Phoenix.

Hawkeye15
03-02-2018, 05:14 PM
When I was in HS my dad took me to a couple of the Mavs/Blazers playoff games when the Blazers were down 0-3 and came back to tie it. When I was watching, all I remember from that series was coming away thinking "this Steve Nash dude is incredible" because I didn't really know who he was at that point and he was able to effortlessly carve the Blazers defense up and get to the rim at will and pass and shoot.

I was definitely not surprised when he exploded in Phoenix.

I remember watching him at Santa Clara, and thinking "man this guy can shoot from anywhere".

He developed really well in Dallas, but yeah dude, you knew he was going to become amazing when he got the keys to the car. in the series I was referring to, he couldn't stick with the physicality of Billups on the defensive end, but we couldn't stop him at all on the other end either haha. Finley ALWAYS murdered us. And Dirk was seriously hitting circus shots that series. I think he was like 90% from 3

valade16
03-02-2018, 05:16 PM
I remember watching him at Santa Clara, and thinking "man this guy can shoot from anywhere".

He developed really well in Dallas, but yeah dude, you knew he was going to become amazing when he got the keys to the car. in the series I was referring to, he couldn't stick with the physicality of Billups on the defensive end, but we couldn't stop him at all on the other end either haha. Finley ALWAYS murdered us. And Dirk was seriously hitting circus shots that series. I think he was like 90% from 3

Michael Finley was out there shooting around before the game and I swear he did not miss a single shot lol.

I actually have a theory for seeing a game live that has anecdotally for me proven reliable. When you watch both teams shoot around before the game, you can tell with reasonable certainty which team will win by just watching the basketball for each side and seeing how many shots are missed lol.

YAALREADYKNO
03-02-2018, 05:20 PM
so Nash and Finley didn't score a ton of points that series?

I remember that series. Dirk, and Finley, were laughably hot. You guys doubled us up on 3's made.

Sure they did but y’all make it seem as if KG had absolutely no help whatsoever. Billups And Sczerbiak performed well and KG Faded down the stretch and got called out by his own coach for it. Y’all gonna put that on his supporting cast too?

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 06:07 PM
He was better on both ends in Boston. Dirk had more responsibilities when he won if you want to put it in your terms thoI dont view him as better in boston just someone with far less burden but i have no problem agreeing to disagree on that one.

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Chronz
03-02-2018, 08:55 PM
I dont view him as better in boston just someone with far less burden but i have no problem agreeing to disagree on that one.

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But you put less stock into that year than Minnesota?

Hawkeye15
03-03-2018, 12:34 AM
Sure they did but y’all make it seem as if KG had absolutely no help whatsoever. Billups And Sczerbiak performed well and KG Faded down the stretch and got called out by his own coach for it. Y’all gonna put that on his supporting cast too?

Did you miss my first post in this thread? I have called out KG many times. Depending on what you need, both Dirk and KG might be your answer.

ewing
03-03-2018, 07:11 AM
Did you miss my first post in this thread? I have called out KG many times. Depending on what you need, both Dirk and KG might be your answer.

If I need the best player on my team Dirk can be the answer if I need a 2nd or 3rd either guy could be the answer.


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ewing
03-03-2018, 07:58 AM
During those 1 individual seasons I'll concede it's a probably a wash but if you look at the 2006 run he knocked off a Memphis team that never went anywhere, a phoenix team pre-stoudemire, and then 1 amazing series against the Spurs where Terry averaged 20ppg, Howard 16ppg, Stackhouse 16ppg, Devin Harris 13ppg while Duncan averaged 32ppg on 56% FG. Duncan was the best player in that series. Is this really the reason why we are anointing Dirk > KG? Because 12 years ago... in a series he got outplayed by Tim Duncan... Dirk's Mavs beat the Spurs before losing to the Heat in an epic choke. That's not selling me. KG does everything better than Dirk but score. Yes I love having a go-to player and yes I love players that are "clutch" but in terms of just an overall basketball player I would pick Kevin Garnett over Dirk all day. He brings so much more to the table and is so much easier to build around. I can literally play him with anybody.

Really I think Dirk does a lot things better. He take the opposing big out to the 3 point line. Scores from all areas of the floor including transition. He draws ton of doubles and collapses defenses so guys like Terry and Kidd are open all the time. He hit big buckets. He scorers efficiency and without holding the ball so other guys can keep there feel. No he isn’t a great defender but he seems pretty easy to build around. What Dirk brings makes it easy for everyone else on O, is what is hardest to find, and what you need to win.


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ewing
03-03-2018, 08:04 AM
I don't think KG had much of a roster around him is the point.

I think they weren’t much of a roaster bc kg wasn’t a true franchise player. He had players around him just no stars. KG needed real star talent next to him.


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Shammyguy3
03-03-2018, 02:00 PM
I think they weren’t much of a roaster bc kg wasn’t a true franchise player. He had players around him just no stars. KG needed real star talent next to him.


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Doesn't every player?

ewing
03-03-2018, 03:02 PM
Doesn't every player?

No. That’s the difference b/t a franchise player and a support player. You put very good role guys around Dirk and they can win. Guys aren’t in your shooters laps like they are when KG is your number 1 option. KG had talent in Minn but he needed prime star talent to win anything.


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Shammyguy3
03-03-2018, 05:27 PM
No. That’s the difference b/t a franchise player and a support player. You put very good role guys around Dirk and they can win. Guys aren’t in your shooters laps like they are when KG is your number 1 option. KG had talent in Minn but he needed prime star talent to win anything.


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Are you arguing that Garnett is just a support player? I think that's crazy. He may not be able to be the best offensive threat on a championship team, but that doesn't mean he isn't the best player on a team. Which franchise player won a ring without a star next to him? Very, very few. Nowitzki, Olajuwon, Barry, and Duncan. That's kind of it. Every other franchise player had at least another franchise-type player next to him.

Michael never won without Scottie Pippen
Lebron never won without a Wade/Bosh or Irving/Love
Wade never won without a Shaq/Lebron/Bosh
Curry never won without Green/Thompson and/or Durant
Durant never won without Curry/Green/Klay
Magic never won without Kareem
Kareem never won without Oscar or Magic
Oscar never won without Kareem
Moses never won without Erving
Erving never won without Moses
Bird never won without McHale/Parish
Kobe never won without Shaq or Pau
Shaq never won without Kobe or Wade
etc etc etc etc

So I don't buy your argument at all. There are franchise players (which almost always need other star players to win), star players, and role players.

ewing
03-03-2018, 05:33 PM
Are you arguing that Garnett is just a support player? I think that's crazy. He may not be able to be the best offensive threat on a championship team, but that doesn't mean he isn't the best player on a team. Which franchise player won a ring without a star next to him? Very, very few. Nowitzki, Olajuwon, Barry, and Duncan. That's kind of it. Every other franchise player had at least another franchise-type player next to him.

Michael never won without Scottie Pippen
Lebron never won without a Wade/Bosh or Irving/Love
Wade never won without a Shaq/Lebron/Bosh
Curry never won without Green/Thompson and/or Durant
Durant never won without Curry/Green/Klay
Magic never won without Kareem
Kareem never won without Oscar or Magic
Oscar never won without Kareem
Moses never won without Erving
Erving never won without Moses
Bird never won without McHale/Parish
Kobe never won without Shaq or Pau
Shaq never won without Kobe or Wade
etc etc etc etc

So I don't buy your argument at all. There are franchise players (which almost always need other star players to win), star players, and role players.

Dude couldn’t win a playoff series if when he wasnt the 3rd option. he also hardly shut down the other great powers when he matched them in the playoffs. I like strong pick and roll defense but it doesn’t make you a top 20 player in the history of basketball

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ChiSox219
03-03-2018, 10:15 PM
Kevin Garnett.

One of the best passing big men of all-time and one of the best defensive players of all-time. A leader who elevates the game of his teammates and can be paired with anybody. The perfect player to build around.

Yep, KG is a cornerstone you can build around in all kinds of ways.

Shammyguy3
03-04-2018, 12:30 AM
Dude couldn’t win a playoff series if when he wasnt the 3rd option. he also hardly shut down the other great powers when he matched them in the playoffs. I like strong pick and roll defense but it doesn’t make you a top 20 player in the history of basketball

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1) He won 2 playoff series as the #1 option in Minnesota, won a championship (i.e 4 playoff series) as the #1 option with Boston, and won other playoff series with Boston after the ring... for the entirety of the playoffs, here is how he matched up with his teammates:
- 2004 led the T'Wolves with 24.3ppg (Sprewell second at 19.8) and a 30.3 usg% (Cassell second at 25.8%)
- 2008 led the Celtics with 20.4ppg (Pierce second at 19.7) and a 26.6usg% (Pierce second at 25.8%)
- 2010 he was 4th in ppg and 3rd in usage
- 2012 led the Celtics with 19.2ppg (Pierce second at 18.9) and tied for team lead with Paul Pierce in usage at a 26.5% clip

2) Name me a great offensive power that gets shut down regularly by a great defensive opponent(especially over a 3+ game series). Great offense almost always beats great defense.

3) He was so much more than pick and roll defense dude.

4) I think you are running out of ideas here to not consider KG a top-20 player ever (and I didn't even vote for him in this thread!)

ewing
03-04-2018, 02:07 AM
1) He won 2 playoff series as the #1 option in Minnesota, won a championship (i.e 4 playoff series) as the #1 option with Boston, and won other playoff series with Boston after the ring... for the entirety of the playoffs, here is how he matched up with his teammates:
- 2004 led the T'Wolves with 24.3ppg (Sprewell second at 19.8) and a 30.3 usg% (Cassell second at 25.8%)
- 2008 led the Celtics with 20.4ppg (Pierce second at 19.7) and a 26.6usg% (Pierce second at 25.8%)
- 2010 he was 4th in ppg and 3rd in usage
- 2012 led the Celtics with 19.2ppg (Pierce second at 18.9) and tied for team lead with Paul Pierce in usage at a 26.5% clip

2) Name me a great offensive power that gets shut down regularly by a great defensive opponent(especially over a 3+ game series). Great offense almost always beats great defense.

3) He was so much more than pick and roll defense dude.

4) I think you are running out of ideas here to not consider KG a top-20 player ever (and I didn't even vote for him in this thread!)

None of those teams looked to KG when they needed a basket


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ewing
03-04-2018, 02:11 AM
ISam I am hit more big shots off the bench as a rocket then KG did over his career

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ewing
03-04-2018, 02:19 AM
If KG is on the line with 0 seconds on the clock down one does anyone thing he makes both?


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ewing
03-04-2018, 08:54 AM
Dp


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Chronz
03-04-2018, 10:35 AM
I don't think KG had much of a roster around him is the point.
Yeah but when he did, he didn't impress and honestly under achieved . Dude got taken to 7 by a rapidly imploding kings team that was featuring a washed up Webber, taken to 7 by the sub.500 hawks led by the might Joe Johnson. Taken to 7 vs Cavs despite a huge talent difference and lost fmvp to the likes of Paul pierce. He never took the stage by the balls and squeezed, he let the stage squeeze his is my point.

ewing
03-04-2018, 11:04 AM
Voted Barkley but I take every player on this list over Kevin Garnett.

Chronz
03-04-2018, 12:00 PM
Just look at their best playoff games/ series and its not even close. KG is a great all around player but you need your fulcrum to be more dominant offensively. I agree with him being overrated defensively too. He wasn't an elite post defender in the era of post dominance nor was he a lockdown of the perimeter bigs that were on the come up like Dirk, hell even in Boston I remember James Posey checking bosh with kg doing what he was truly elite at, playing free safety. Kobe was similarly skilled at that. KG was great at switching and terrorizing smaller players but if I'm going for defense, how is drob not ahead? Charles is a better option as well.

Sorting by gamescore in the playoffs,

Games with a +50 score
Charles: 1

Games above 45
Charles: 2

Games above 35
Charles : 8
KG : 1

Games above 30
Charles : 8
KG: 3

Above 25
Charles: 11
KG : 8


And so on. Chuck was just a different beast, just totally focused on dominating his position, was arguably better at creating for others and infinitely better on the offensive glass. Only thing kg had on him was being a better outlet option for his ball handlers but chuck could find ways to dominate without the ball for his guys too.

Defense, you got me there. Chuck being a donut is partly why mj had such an insane series relative to what he's done vs more defensively sound teams but chuck went right back at the champs. When has kg ever dominated his opposition to the degree I've seen from chuck? I still remember chuck just giving Kemp the business, even as old fogey he was the difference maker against the Sonics for the rockets. KG always looked like the 2nd best big most of the time imo

Chronz
03-04-2018, 12:03 PM
Voted Barkley but I take every player on this list over Kevin Garnett.
What's the count and who's left that should be discussed

valade16
03-04-2018, 01:52 PM
What's the count and who's left that should be discussed

7 KG
5 Chuck

Chronz
03-04-2018, 01:53 PM
If KG is on the line with 0 seconds on the clock down one does anyone thing he makes both?


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To your point, kg sees his scoring rate in the playoffs decline in many traditionally defined "clutch" situations. Guys like Dirk and Duncan saw it increase. KG didn't want it

ewing
03-04-2018, 02:37 PM
What's the count and who's left that should be discussed

Chuck is the only one in the running with KG right now. I really think Dirk should get the nod but Ewing, Doctor, the Admiral, Mail man. All these guys were better players then KG. KG was the fakest of fake tough guys.


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Chronz
03-04-2018, 02:59 PM
borrowed my roommates pc to cast my vote, do the right think hawk, vote sir charles.

Would rather see Dirk but oh well

KingstonHawke
03-04-2018, 04:12 PM
Of that list... Chris Paul. I never see him ranked high enough on PG list. The idea that West, Stockton, and Nash were better than Chris Paul is nuts to me. Imagine if he spent his entire career with a Karl Malone. Paul has just always been looked over. Wasn't taken #1 overall and proved to be better thanall three of the players taken above him. He is the embodiment of the classic PG, does it all! Can score, can assist, makes everyone better (even ball dominant guards like Hardin!), plays on ball defense, always is top ten in steals... what can't he do? He's Jason Kidd with a better jumper but I've never seen him ranked higher on a list than Jason Kidd.

I have a really hard time deciding who has had a better career between Paul and Curry. I'm leaning Paul. Curry had the higher peak possibly. But Paul was amazing from day 1, and hasn't stopped being amazing.

Jamiecballer
03-04-2018, 04:30 PM
KG is being mad underrated here. He was criticized back then much in the same way Lebron was earlier in his career - he would much rather make the right basketball play than play hero ball. Lebron obviously has the ability to be both but i dont see why we are so critical of a player who just wasn't a great one on one scorer and had the awareness of that.

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Chronz
03-04-2018, 04:40 PM
KG is being mad underrated here. He was criticized back then much in the same way Lebron was earlier in his career - he would much rather make the right basketball play than play hero ball. Lebron obviously has the ability to be both but i dont see why we are so critical of a player who just wasn't a great one on one scorer and had the awareness of that.

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If LeBron remained that same player throughout his career, he wouldn't be as high either. Also when kg did have the squad he wasn't awe inspiring. Plenty of greats have lost in round 1 or missed the playoffs entirely, they just impress me more than KG in similar situations.

ewing
03-04-2018, 05:13 PM
KG is being mad underrated here. He was criticized back then much in the same way Lebron was earlier in his career - he would much rather make the right basketball play than play hero ball. Lebron obviously has the ability to be both but i dont see why we are so critical of a player who just wasn't a great one on one scorer and had the awareness of that.

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A lot of guys know they aren’t the man.


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ewing
03-04-2018, 05:18 PM
If LeBron remained that same player throughout his career, he wouldn't be as high either. Also when kg did have the squad he wasn't awe inspiring. Plenty of greats have lost in round 1 or missed the playoffs entirely, they just impress me more than KG in similar situations.

Plus LeBron was often criticized for drawing and dishing to an open man in the clutch- sometimes unfairly. Nobody doubled KG in the clutch.


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Vallejo Raiders
03-04-2018, 05:21 PM
white mamba

Jamiecballer
03-04-2018, 05:37 PM
A lot of guys know they aren’t the man.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot as many as should

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ewing
03-04-2018, 05:58 PM
Not as many as should

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Doesn’t make you great


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Jamiecballer
03-04-2018, 07:59 PM
No but the list of players who could have been amazing if they'd ever figured out how to play as a team first... damn. Imagine Kobe and AI if they ever got that memo wow

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tredigs
03-04-2018, 09:00 PM
Lmfao I am so glad my name is not a part of these past few votes, including this one. Yikes, guys. Hint: You might want to get Bill Russell in there within ten spots of Tracy McGrady lmfao.. sigh

Jamiecballer
03-04-2018, 09:43 PM
Lmfao I am so glad my name is not a part of these past few votes, including this one. Yikes, guys. Hint: You might want to get Bill Russell in there within ten spots of Tracy McGrady lmfao.. sighIts the 2k generation man

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tredigs
03-04-2018, 09:48 PM
Its the 2k generation man

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I mean it's just sort of ridiculous/embarrassing and completely ruins the project. This thing is a joke. I guess that's what happens when 4 people vote lol. Have fun with this joke list fellas. I definitely will not participate any further.

Shammyguy3
03-04-2018, 10:17 PM
I mean it's just sort of ridiculous/embarrassing and completely ruins the project. This thing is a joke. I guess that's what happens when 4 people vote lol. Have fun with this joke list fellas. I definitely will not participate any further.

So instead of participating to make the list more relevant, you bash it and then pronounce your continued lack of involvement? Cool

ewing
03-04-2018, 10:25 PM
Lmfao I am so glad my name is not a part of these past few votes, including this one. Yikes, guys. Hint: You might want to get Bill Russell in there within ten spots of Tracy McGrady lmfao.. sigh

It’s all about post season performance


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KnicksorBust
03-04-2018, 10:48 PM
I mean it's just sort of ridiculous/embarrassing and completely ruins the project. This thing is a joke. I guess that's what happens when 4 people vote lol. Have fun with this joke list fellas. I definitely will not participate any further.

So instead of participating to make the list more relevant, you bash it and then pronounce your continued lack of involvement? Cool

This x a million. :laugh:

valade16
03-04-2018, 10:56 PM
I mean it's just sort of ridiculous/embarrassing and completely ruins the project. This thing is a joke. I guess that's what happens when 4 people vote lol. Have fun with this joke list fellas. I definitely will not participate any further.

Not saying he doesn’t deserve to go, but do you think KG wouldn’t be as good or better if he played in the 60’s?

Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 12:02 AM
This x a million. :laugh:

I don't get it man

tredigs
03-05-2018, 01:09 AM
I don't get it man

An "ALL TIME" list done terribly is an eye sore. But by all means, you 6 of you enjoy yourselves.

GREATNESS ONE
03-05-2018, 01:37 AM
No but the list of players who could have been amazing if they'd ever figured out how to play as a team first... damn. Imagine Kobe and AI if they ever got that memo wow

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:facepalm: 5>0

GREATNESS ONE
03-05-2018, 01:38 AM
Not saying he doesn’t deserve to go, but do you think KG wouldn’t be as good or better if he played in the 60’s?

Every player now would be awesome/better 50-60 years ago..

Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 02:44 AM
An "ALL TIME" list done terribly is an eye sore. But by all means, you 6 of you enjoy yourselves.

I thought there were only 4 of us? And this is an all time peak list btw. I dont agree with it in is entirety, but there have been good debates between some of us without negative Nancy's like you leaving snarky posts

ewing
03-05-2018, 06:12 AM
Shots fired!!!!


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Jamiecballer
03-05-2018, 08:42 AM
It’s all about post season performance


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if that's the case then why not create a thread that states that?

ewing
03-05-2018, 09:58 AM
if that's the case then why not create a thread that states that?

I was being sarcastic. not a bad idea though

Chronz
03-05-2018, 11:42 AM
Every player now would be awesome/better 50-60 years ago..
Not 3pt chuckers

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 12:30 PM
I thought there were only 4 of us? And this is an all time peak list btw. I dont agree with it in is entirety, but there have been good debates between some of us without negative Nancy's like you leaving snarky posts

I'm not familiar with the reference but I believe this is one of the times where a "Bye Felicia" works. Moving forward I've decided to try to just ignore those posts of people complaining and engage with the people who want to debate the current vote. 13 years on the site you'd think I'd have it down by now. :)

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 12:31 PM
I'm torn between Barkley and D-Rob next.

Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 12:31 PM
I'm not familiar with the reference but I believe this is one of the times where a "Bye Felicia" works. Moving forward I've decided to try to just ignore those posts of people complaining and engage with the people who want to debate the current vote. 13 years on the site you'd think I'd have it down by now. :)

Now that KG is off, shouldn't the next 4 be a combo of Chuck, Dirk, Robinson, and Russell?

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 12:34 PM
Now that KG is off, shouldn't the next 4 be a combo of Chuck, Dirk, Robinson, and Russell?

I really am okay with leaving Russell off for at least another 5 guys. I know it's not the same as growing up in that era but I've watched film and checked stats, the offense doesn't' stack up.

Hawkeye15
03-05-2018, 12:41 PM
Not 3pt chuckers

you talking about Shimmy?

valade16
03-05-2018, 01:35 PM
An "ALL TIME" list done terribly is an eye sore. But by all means, you 6 of you enjoy yourselves.

First, the list has consistently received around 20 votes, so it's not just "us 6". Second, I'm not sure if you're actually aware of the criteria for the list. It's not an All-Time list in the traditional sense, it is not about who has the most championships or accolades. A lot of people seem to be confused about that point.

Shammyguy3
03-05-2018, 01:45 PM
you talking about Shimmy?

Is that a reference to me?!

KnicksorBust
03-05-2018, 04:02 PM
Is that a reference to me?!

:laugh: I think he means 'Toine.

Chronz
03-05-2018, 04:03 PM
:laugh: I think he means 'Toine.
Yup.

Miss that bum, man the 90s were filled with fake stars, no wonder Reggie gets underrated by the accolades, we didn't look past the base stats back then

Chronz
03-05-2018, 04:05 PM
:laugh: I think he means 'Toine.
Funny note on Antoine btw, dude used to be among the league leaders on inside shots iirc. The only problem was he was by far the least efficient in the paint. Is it any wonder he began chucking. Like the anti Barkley, Charles routinely chucked out of boredom, Antoine did it to improve lol

NO Flash
03-07-2018, 06:00 PM
Here is my Top 40 as an “Elite 8” based within roughly on a decade of their prime. Question: Who would win a round robin?
Players. Coaches
1 -Russell. Auerbach
Pettit
Baylor
West
Robertson

2 -Chamberlain. Holtzman
Havlicek
Barry
Frazier
Maravich

3 - Jabbar. Larry Brown
Cowens
Erving
Gervin
Magic Johnson

4 - M Malone. Riley
Bird
McHale
Drexler
Isiah Thomas

5 - Olajuwon. Phil
K Malone
Barkley
Jordan
Stockton

6 - Robinson. (Detroit guy?)
Wilkins
Worthy
Payton
Kidd

7 - Shaq. Popovich
Duncan
Garnett
Bryant
Nash

8 - Dirk. (Warriors guy?)
LeBron
Durant
Westbrook
Curry

NO Flash
03-07-2018, 07:12 PM
Or, we could do a top 48 “Final Four” of 12 man teams:
1 - Russell/Pettit/Baylor/West/Oscar/
Wilt/Havlicek/Barry/Frazier/Pistol Pete
Add: Willis Reed/Bob Cousy
Coach: Auerbach

2 - Jabbar/Cowens/Dr J/Gervin/Magic/
M Malone/Bird/McHale/Drexler/Isiah
Add: Bill Walton/Alex English
Coach: Riley

3 - Olajuwon/KMalone/Barkley/Jordan/
Stockton/Robinson/Wilkins//Worthy/
Payton/Kidd. Add: Chris Mullin/McGrady
Coach: Phil

4 - Shaq/Duncan/Garnett/Bryant/Nash/
Dirk/LeBron/Durant/Westbrook//Curry
Add: Anthony Davis & Chris Paul
Coach: Popovich

Who takes the blue ribbon??

NO Flash
03-07-2018, 09:15 PM
Now for the tough one: picking the NBA's All Time 25. It is actually very hard to do this, because the size, strength and speed of the current guys would probably slaughter those 50 years earlier. Even in their prime, I don't think Russell, Pettit, Baylor, West & Robertson could keep up with Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Bryant and Curry. Probably not even Hakeem, Karl Malone, Bird, Jordan and Magic.

But here goes my 25 cents:
Centers = Russell, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Moses Malone, Hakeem and Shaq.
Forwards (3/4) = Baylor, Havlicek, Erving, Cowens, Bird, K. Malone, Duncan, Dirk, Lebron, Durant
Guards (1/2) = Oscar, Pistol Pete, Magic, Clyde Drexler, Michael, Stockton, Bryant, Nash, Curry

Coaches: Auerbach, Jackson, Popovich