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Giannis94
02-28-2018, 02:57 PM
Seeing that the NCAA has been kind of exposes recently, how do you all feel about the slu of hot-takes SVG fired off? I believe Lebron and a few other stars also commented


Detroitís Stan Van Gundyóone of the smartest and most quotable coaches in the NBAógot asked about the NCAA, and the Friday report about the FBIís enforcement of recruiting violations, ahead of his Pistonsí game against the Hornets on Sunday. He took the opportunity to go in on the NBAís free minor league.

ďThe NCAA is one of the worst organizations ó maybe the worst organization ó in sports. They certainly donít care about the athletes. Theyíre going to act now like theyíre just appalled by all these things going on in college basketball? Please. Itís ridiculous,Ē Van Gundy said.

He then went on to add that he thought* the one-and-done rule, which essentially forces basketball players who have graduated high school to either play a year in college or Europe before going to the NBA, was unfair and racist:

I think a lot of it was racist, quite honestly. And the reason Iím going to say that is, Iíve never heard anybody go up in arms about, ĎOh my god, theyíre letting these kids go out and play minor-league baseballí or, ĎTheyíre letting these kids come out and play minor-league hockey.í Theyíre not making big money, and theyíre white kids primarily, and nobody has a problem.

But all of a sudden, youíve got a black kid who wants to come out of high school and make millions ó thatís a bad decision? But bypassing college to go play for $800 a month in minor-league baseball Ė thatís a fine decision? What the hell is going on?

The one-and-done rule, by most measurements, is good for the NBAís business. Instead of letting talented but relatively unknown teenagers go straight to the draftówhich, by the way, Van Gundy also thinks is a dumb way to add players to teamsóit makes them build up hype by playing for free on national TV, usually for a school with a huge built-in fanbase that can then transfer over to the pros. Imagine how many more people will care about which team Trae Young goes to this summer, compared to last.

But obviously, Van Gundy is right that itís only football and basketballóthe two predominantly black sports in Americaóthat have these rules limiting when players can become professionals, and it doesnít make any sense. A minor league baseball player living below the poverty line is not better off than a basketball player turning pro right after high school, and yet only one of those things is currently impossible in the U.S.

*Correction (9:34 a.m. ET): Originally there was a ďdidnítĒ in that sentence that gave it the opposite meaning. Thatís been changed.

https://deadspin.com/stan-van-gundy-roasts-the-ncaa-calls-out-racism-of-the-1823319890

Forever35
02-28-2018, 03:59 PM
I think you have to agree with SVG, LeBron and Jalen Rose... These guys know it and lived it... Heck, SVG was an NCAA head coach...

The NBA and the NCAA need to figure out how to do better by college players... It's going to eventually come to a head and the NCAA better hope a sit-out of March Madness doesn't happen...

tp13baby
02-28-2018, 04:39 PM
There is a problem when your congressmen get paid by lobbyists but kids canít even have meal paid for.

NCAA is a **** show. I hope sports have outlets for these kids to make money.

Hawkeye15
02-28-2018, 04:50 PM
I do have an issue with the NCAA, but I also get why they are the way they are. Theoretically, some of this is for kids protection. If they sign an agent, they are done. No more free education. However, what difference does 1 year make?

I am torn on it. You can't just pay players so easily. How do we dictate who gets paid? I understand the football and basketball teams bring in the majority of revenue, and a school would never pay a softball player for example. But how do we determine who is worth what? And then, isn't it more like a job offer, versus recruiting?

Idk, the system is broken. Just make it so you can either come straight from high school, or you need to stay 2-3 years.

nastynice
02-28-2018, 05:28 PM
Lava Ball had this mentality, but was in over his head. I'm happy that big names, especially LeBron, are now echoing the same sentiment, maybe they can actually start changing things

Great points by SVG and I agree

Saddletramp
02-28-2018, 06:23 PM
Make the G-League available to kids right out of high school. They can be drafted straight from HS but aren't eligible to get on an NBA team for at least a year. Or two years. It would probably attract viewership to the G-League and the kids can make some money. Might need some tweeks here and there but something needs to change.

Scoots
02-28-2018, 06:40 PM
Make the G-League available to kids right out of high school. They can be drafted straight from HS but aren't eligible to get on an NBA team for at least a year. Or two years. It would probably attract viewership to the G-League and the kids can make some money. Might need some tweeks here and there but something needs to change.

This, and make the NCAA non-profit and have them split any revenue equally between all member schools. Give scholarship student athletes a reasonable amount of money to live on like a typical college student if they choose to go.

Colleges make a lot of money on 2 sports. They need to distribute that money to other school programs by rule. Either other sports or the whole school, but it should be used to make school better or cheaper for all students.

Jamiecballer
02-28-2018, 06:41 PM
i was thinking about this and its definitely a tough one. i think the rule preventing players from coming straight from high school is for the greater good, even if there is the occasional player who we miss seeing as a pro for a year because of it, but one and done is pointless and bad for the quality of college ball. what i would propose is either come out of highschool and go to the Sacramento Kings, or play 3 years. that way we aren't technically saying you can't come right out of high school, but we all know you are gonna choose to go to school.

Forever35
02-28-2018, 07:33 PM
Who made the mistake years back when HS players that entered the draft never made it...??? And when I mean never made it, I mean never got drafted... Somebody had to have been there to tell them what their chances were of making the NBA... I mean, what a shame for you to get an agent declare and don't even get drafted... Something is wrong there... So many busts who would have benefited from college ball...

There are plenty of stories where they get drafted and it doesn't work out and they make a decent career overseas...

I agree that the MLB and NCAA rules show a little more favor for the player, but there are so many career minor league players who never make the bigs... At least for basketball players, there are plenty of overseas chances to make a living...

nastynice
02-28-2018, 07:39 PM
Who made the mistake years back when HS players that entered the draft never made it...??? And when I mean never made it, I mean never got drafted... Somebody had to have been there to tell them what their chances were of making the NBA... I mean, what a shame for you to get an agent declare and don't even get drafted... Something is wrong there... So many busts who would have benefited from college ball...

There are plenty of stories where they get drafted and it doesn't work out and they make a decent career overseas...

I agree that the MLB and NCAA rules show a little more favor for the player, but there are so many career minor league players who never make the bigs... At least for basketball players, there are plenty of overseas chances to make a living...

Haha, I just seen a video on this the other day, a guy named Lenny Cooke I think, ranked best high school player his senior year (LeBron's junior year). Declared for draft, didn't get drafted, made a few practice squads. They said he was part of the reason they changed it

Saddletramp
02-28-2018, 08:14 PM
This, and make the NCAA non-profit and have them split any revenue equally between all member schools. Give scholarship student athletes a reasonable amount of money to live on like a typical college student if they choose to go.

Colleges make a lot of money on 2 sports. They need to distribute that money to other school programs by rule. Either other sports or the whole school, but it should be used to make school better or cheaper for all students.

Totally. Instead of extra money getting sent to agents or boosters or school board members or NCAA members, spread it out across the board and maybe help with tuitions.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 08:26 AM
I do have an issue with the NCAA, but I also get why they are the way they are. Theoretically, some of this is for kids protection. If they sign an agent, they are done. No more free education. However, what difference does 1 year make?

I am torn on it. You can't just pay players so easily. How do we dictate who gets paid? I understand the football and basketball teams bring in the majority of revenue, and a school would never pay a softball player for example. But how do we determine who is worth what? And then, isn't it more like a job offer, versus recruiting?

Idk, the system is broken. Just make it so you can either come straight from high school, or you need to stay 2-3 years.

yeah... there is no easy solution... can you just imagine all the title IX whining that would go on...

you can't not pay the girls cross country team if you are going to pay the football players...

I am sure schools would gladly pay players if they didn't have to deal with title IX compliance (ie they would get rid of most of those sports) and only keep the sports that make money

AllBall
03-01-2018, 08:49 AM
Make the G-League available to kids right out of high school. They can be drafted straight from HS but aren't eligible to get on an NBA team for at least a year. Or two years. It would probably attract viewership to the G-League and the kids can make some money. Might need some tweeks here and there but something needs to change.

I third this. The schools should pay the athletes, if you want to defer payment until after graduation or until 10 years after enrolling (whichever comes first) that's fine. But because that isn't happening, you should allow the players to go straight from HS to the G-league so they can at least make money there...the NBA can even do a tuition program so that if it doesn't work out they can still go to school at a later point.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 08:52 AM
I can't stand the fact that there is a rule preventing individuals from achieving their dream. If a high school kid wants to go make millions of dollars in the NBA he should be allowed to declare for the draft whenever he wants. Forcing that person to go play pretend "student"-athlete for a year is a joke.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 08:53 AM
Make the G-League available to kids right out of high school. They can be drafted straight from HS but aren't eligible to get on an NBA team for at least a year. Or two years. It would probably attract viewership to the G-League and the kids can make some money. Might need some tweeks here and there but something needs to change.

Probably the most logical compromise solution. I still think that G-League draft pick should be able to be called up whenever he is ready but at least that's a step in the right direction.

Forever35
03-01-2018, 09:30 AM
I can't stand the fact that there is a rule preventing individuals from achieving their dream. If a high school kid wants to go make millions of dollars in the NBA he should be allowed to declare for the draft whenever he wants. Forcing that person to go play pretend "student"-athlete for a year is a joke.

Yup... It also forces some HS kids to go overseas for the year and then go into the draft the following year...

Having basketball leagues all around the globe gives many of these kids chances to play and earn a living... But wouldn't the NBA want these players to play for their league...???

Forever35
03-01-2018, 09:36 AM
I don't think the NCAA should play student athletes...

The NBA should let them declare for the draft whenever they want, but the NBA needs to have more combines, interviews and straight up conversations letting these kids know if they have what it takes to make an NBA roster... If freshman A attends a combine, has interviews with scouts/team officials and comes out of it with they need to stay at least another year in school than IMO that's a win win win for the NCAA, the NBA and the player... If player A goes through this for 4 straight years they will hopefully have a degree and also have the opportunity to play in the G-League...

IndyRealist
03-01-2018, 09:48 AM
They're adults when they graduate high school. If they want to work instead of going to college why are we forcing them? Let them chase their dream. If they're not ready, again, they're adults.

The NCAA is the single most corrupt organization entire professions are forced to participate in. Amateurism is a sham, designed to cheat workers out of fair wages for their labor. And don't tell me the money isn't there to pay players when collegiate coaches can make more than pro coaches.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 10:05 AM
They're adults when they graduate high school. If they want to work instead of going to college why are we forcing them? Let them chase their dream. If they're not ready, again, they're adults.

The NCAA is the single most corrupt organization entire professions are forced to participate in. Amateurism is a sham, designed to cheat workers out of fair wages for their labor. And don't tell me the money isn't there to pay players when collegiate coaches can make more than pro coaches.

meh... there are plenty of overseas leagues they can play in.

I am sure if you put a realistic rookie scale in for the NBA people wouldn't really care if they jumped to the NBA out of middle school.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 10:08 AM
I came up with this plan years ago:

Coming out of HS you have 2 choices - You can go into the draft or to college.

If you go into the draft: If you are drafted you go into the G-League for a minimum of 2.5 years. You can make a max salary of $1mil/year and your rookie contract starts. During this time, through an NBA approved online university you must complete an AA before being called up. If you go this route, you are not allowed to sign an agent until after the draft.

If you go undrafted, because you didn't have an agent, you are free to go to college.

If you go to college: If you go to college, you have to stay a minimum 3 years. The upside here is when you come out, you go straight to the NBA. There's no waiting, no requirement to have some type of degree. As soon as you come out you are able to sign an agent.

This system is very similar to what the MLB does with HS kids, except for the having to stay down a level for a certain amount of time. I would add an extra round to the draft since theoretically this draft is now deeper because of this. Would put some teams in a bind. If you think about the 2015 NBA draft:

Minnesota Timberwolves are at the top of the draft with pick #1. They can take Ben Simmons straight out of HS, knowing he wouldn't be able to show up unto the NBA til about now, or they can take Anthony Davis coming off his 3 years at Kentucky.

Pick number two between a very green Brandon Ingram or Bradley Beal with 3 years of development.

Are some teams more looking long term or now?

The team stipulation I would put on it:
You cannot use a lottery pick on a HS Senior 2 consecutive years.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 10:22 AM
They're adults when they graduate high school. If they want to work instead of going to college why are we forcing them? Let them chase their dream. If they're not ready, again, they're adults.

The NCAA is the single most corrupt organization entire professions are forced to participate in. Amateurism is a sham, designed to cheat workers out of fair wages for their labor. And don't tell me the money isn't there to pay players when collegiate coaches can make more than pro coaches.

It's in the NBAs interest to have the players play at a higher level than high school before the draft. G-league, foreign leagues, college, all are good for the NBA and the NBA is a business and they can have internal rules for how they choose their employees.

College players should get money, straight up, but not a lot. Right now the issue is that they get a tiny amount and can't work to make pocket change. It's a wildly broken system, but it shouldn't be scrapped entirely for a small number of players who will make it in the NBA ... the system does enormous good for all the people who get full scholarships and won't ever play ball again after they graduate. There needs to be a balance and a collaboration with whatever organization takes over for the NCAA and professional sports.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 10:33 AM
I came up with this plan years ago:

Coming out of HS you have 2 choices - You can go into the draft or to college.

If you go into the draft: If you are drafted you go into the G-League for a minimum of 2.5 years. You can make a max salary of $1mil/year and your rookie contract starts. During this time, through an NBA approved online university you must complete an AA before being called up. If you go this route, you are not allowed to sign an agent until after the draft.

If you go undrafted, because you didn't have an agent, you are free to go to college.

If you go to college: If you go to college, you have to stay a minimum 3 years. The upside here is when you come out, you go straight to the NBA. There's no waiting, no requirement to have some type of degree. As soon as you come out you are able to sign an agent.

This system is very similar to what the MLB does with HS kids, except for the having to stay down a level for a certain amount of time. I would add an extra round to the draft since theoretically this draft is now deeper because of this. Would put some teams in a bind. If you think about the 2015 NBA draft:

Minnesota Timberwolves are at the top of the draft with pick #1. They can take Ben Simmons straight out of HS, knowing he wouldn't be able to show up unto the NBA til about now, or they can take Anthony Davis coming off his 3 years at Kentucky.

Pick number two between a very green Brandon Ingram or Bradley Beal with 3 years of development.

Are some teams more looking long term or now?

The team stipulation I would put on it:
You cannot use a lottery pick on a HS Senior 2 consecutive years.

That's fine with me although I might shorten the required times, but that still has the NCAA "having" these players for several years and profiting from them.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 10:53 AM
That's fine with me although I might shorten the required times, but that still has the NCAA "having" these players for several years and profiting from them.

The NCAA profiting off players is not the NFL/NBA/MLBís issue to worry about. Thatís the universities/NCAA.

I talked it over with an insider I know and he liked it and said it helps both issues. We arenít telling 18 year olds you canít go straight to that, weíre just telling them they have to put in the required training before hand.

But like I said, NCAA making money off SAís isnít the NBA/NBPAís problem. They donít represent them so they have little say in it.

If I were in charge of the NCAA what I would change is:
All players get a flat stipends. $10,000 per semester. You can do local endorsements capped at $20,000 per year. You can have an agent. You can accept gifts/meals up to $2,000 per year.

If your telling me a college kid getting $40,000 per year while his college is paid for ($40,000 value per year) and he has access to no charge housing and food canít get by, then thatís a us economics issue.

IndyRealist
03-01-2018, 10:59 AM
It's in the NBAs interest to have the players play at a higher level than high school before the draft. G-league, foreign leagues, college, all are good for the NBA and the NBA is a business and they can have internal rules for how they choose their employees.

College players should get money, straight up, but not a lot. Right now the issue is that they get a tiny amount and can't work to make pocket change. It's a wildly broken system, but it shouldn't be scrapped entirely for a small number of players who will make it in the NBA ... the system does enormous good for all the people who get full scholarships and won't ever play ball again after they graduate. There needs to be a balance and a collaboration with whatever organization takes over for the NCAA and professional sports.

The NBA needs a true farm system instead of cobbling it together. Forcing athletes to work for a fraction of the value they bring in the NCAA will never, ever be justifiable.

Collegiate sports benefit a great many student athletes, sure. But we're not talking about rowers and pole vaulters. We're talking about athletes who could make 6 or 7 figures in a free market getting less than 10% of that. Let athletes ready to turn pro do so if they want to, and athletes who aren't ready or never will turn pro go to college. The NCAA is not all or nothing. It existed before sports generated all this revenue, but the model hasn't shifted to account for that. Instead the NCAA lines their pockets off of people who don't want to be there but are forced to. And the NBA is complicit.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 11:04 AM
The NCAA profiting off players is not the NFL/NBA/MLBís issue to worry about. Thatís the universities/NCAA.

I talked it over with an insider I know and he liked it and said it helps both issues. We arenít telling 18 year olds you canít go straight to that, weíre just telling them they have to put in the required training before hand.

But like I said, NCAA making money off SAís isnít the NBA/NBPAís problem. They donít represent them so they have little say in it.

If I were in charge of the NCAA what I would change is:
All players get a flat stipends. $10,000 per semester. You can do local endorsements capped at $20,000 per year. You can have an agent. You can accept gifts/meals up to $2,000 per year.

If your telling me a college kid getting $40,000 per year while his college is paid for ($40,000 value per year) and he has access to no charge housing and food canít get by, then thatís a us economics issue.

The NFL, MLB, and NBA empower the NCAA to do what they are doing.

$40k is a lot more than I was thinking ... keep in mind that by law anything they pay to basketball players has to apply to all athletes in all sports at the college. The biggest issue right now is that all of them are in forced poverty and are not allowed to work. Last I looked into it NCAA student athletes were given less than $3500 a year ... 4 or 5 times that would be enough probably, and still be affordable for the colleges (without them using it as an excuse to shut down other sports programs) if the NCAA starts sharing the wealth between all colleges.

Forever35
03-01-2018, 11:21 AM
I don't agree with paying college athletes, but if I had a choice I would pay them the most possible that a work/study job pays... Students who are on scholarship are allowed to participate in work/study programs... IMO, NCAA players are working while studying as athletes...

It's at least something...

Scoots
03-01-2018, 11:28 AM
I don't agree with paying college athletes, but if I had a choice I would pay them the most possible that a work/study job pays... Students who are on scholarship are allowed to participate in work/study programs... IMO, NCAA players are working while studying as athletes...

It's at least something...

They do that now at a rate of less than $3500 a year. That's less than $10 a day. The NCAA said in the past that the rest of the money they might need should be made up for by the parents, but the players can see the billion dollar industry they are the product of and how they are eating mac n cheese for the 15th time this month and are pissed about it. The NCAA should make no profit and the student athletes should get considerably more than they are getting now ... not a crazy amount of money, just enough that they have a reasonable chance of enjoying their college experience.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 11:31 AM
The NFL, MLB, and NBA empower the NCAA to do what they are doing.

$40k is a lot more than I was thinking ... keep in mind that by law anything they pay to basketball players has to apply to all athletes in all sports at the college. The biggest issue right now is that all of them are in forced poverty and are not allowed to work. Last I looked into it NCAA student athletes were given less than $3500 a year ... 4 or 5 times that would be enough probably, and still be affordable for the colleges (without them using it as an excuse to shut down other sports programs) if the NCAA starts sharing the wealth between all colleges.

Eh...I donít agree with pro sports enabling the NCAA to do what they do.

Iím only suggesting the coachís being able to offer a max stipend of $10,000 per semester paid out via the NCAA; all money coming from sales of anything with player likeness on it. The other up to $20k they make on their own.

The way I envision:
Iím a good golfer. Great in fact.

Georgia Tech and Stanford both knock on my door. Both offer the max stipend of $10k/semester.

GT tells me they can line up endorsements with a sporting goods company, a car dealership, and a restaurant. Totals $20k. They are willing to let me use and have arranged the $2k in gifts to be used on equipment (golf is expensive).

Stanford can get me deals with a tech company, an amusement park, and a local sightseeing company. I can use the gifts to get tickets for my parents to fly to matches.

Other schools are asking for me but they canít line up as much endorsements. So I cross them off.

Boosters for schools will always pony up for the endorsements. Thatís not an issue.

Making all payments go through the NCAA just regulates it. In fact I would turn the NCAA non-profit so I have to send out all the money.

Could you imagine what it could do if Saben knocks, $10,000 stipend but only $5,000 in endorsements; and then Jimbo Fisher stops by with $10,000 stipend and $20,000 in endorsements lines up? I think it could really level out the NCAA.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 11:38 AM
The NBA needs a true farm system instead of cobbling it together. Forcing athletes to work for a fraction of the value they bring in the NCAA will never, ever be justifiable.

Collegiate sports benefit a great many student athletes, sure. But we're not talking about rowers and pole vaulters. We're talking about athletes who could make 6 or 7 figures in a free market getting less than 10% of that. Let athletes ready to turn pro do so if they want to, and athletes who aren't ready or never will turn pro go to college. The NCAA is not all or nothing. It existed before sports generated all this revenue, but the model hasn't shifted to account for that. Instead the NCAA lines their pockets off of people who don't want to be there but are forced to. And the NBA is complicit.

You act like the one year post HS requirement is some how the only restriction on players... why should there be a rookie scale? why should there be max contracts? Why should teams have RFA rights? All of those items are restrictions on players earning ability and have nothing to do with the NCAA.

Why not use a Club system like in soccer where kids are signed at 12 and groomed and controlled by teams

You seem to be picking off one arbitrary restraint on individuals while ignoring all the others.

You also seem to be ignoring the economics of college athletics where basketball and football basically pay for all the loser sports... those sports have to be supported because of title IX ... how are you going to fund those if you pay football and basketball players? Oh yeah... tuition increases on everyone else...

Scoots
03-01-2018, 11:52 AM
Eh...I donít agree with pro sports enabling the NCAA to do what they do.

Iím only suggesting the coachís being able to offer a max stipend of $10,000 per semester paid out via the NCAA; all money coming from sales of anything with player likeness on it. The other up to $20k they make on their own.

The way I envision:
Iím a good golfer. Great in fact.

Georgia Tech and Stanford both knock on my door. Both offer the max stipend of $10k/semester.

GT tells me they can line up endorsements with a sporting goods company, a car dealership, and a restaurant. Totals $20k. They are willing to let me use and have arranged the $2k in gifts to be used on equipment (golf is expensive).

Stanford can get me deals with a tech company, an amusement park, and a local sightseeing company. I can use the gifts to get tickets for my parents to fly to matches.

Other schools are asking for me but they canít line up as much endorsements. So I cross them off.

Boosters for schools will always pony up for the endorsements. Thatís not an issue.

Making all payments go through the NCAA just regulates it. In fact I would turn the NCAA non-profit so I have to send out all the money.

Could you imagine what it could do if Saben knocks, $10,000 stipend but only $5,000 in endorsements; and then Jimbo Fisher stops by with $10,000 stipend and $20,000 in endorsements lines up? I think it could really level out the NCAA.

Again, if they offer that to basketball players they have to offer it to field hockey players too by law. If the amount is too much a lot of colleges will have to shut down other sports programs and that will result in a lot fewer student athletes getting an education because of a tiny number of players who are good enough to go pro and make huge money after school. I think the money they make should not be a recruiting tool but should be a lot more than the $3kish they can get now. $40k is way too much, and having them spend any time doing work away from school/sports is a bad idea ... the focus needs to stay on them being students for their own good considering most of them are not going to the NBA and the education will pay back many times over in their lifetime. The g-league option is where they go if they want to try to shortcut the college route and I'm fine with that being an option.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 11:54 AM
The NFL, MLB, and NBA empower the NCAA to do what they are doing.

$40k is a lot more than I was thinking ... keep in mind that by law anything they pay to basketball players has to apply to all athletes in all sports at the college. The biggest issue right now is that all of them are in forced poverty and are not allowed to work. Last I looked into it NCAA student athletes were given less than $3500 a year ... 4 or 5 times that would be enough probably, and still be affordable for the colleges (without them using it as an excuse to shut down other sports programs) if the NCAA starts sharing the wealth between all colleges.

This is a fact that seems to be lost on everyone

not to mention that these division 1 athletic programs don't make as much money as people think

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/

warfelg
03-01-2018, 11:59 AM
Again, if they offer that to basketball players they have to offer it to field hockey players too by law. If the amount is too much a lot of colleges will have to shut down other sports programs and that will result in a lot fewer student athletes getting an education because of a tiny number of players who are good enough to go pro and make huge money after school. I think the money they make should not be a recruiting tool but should be a lot more than the $3kish they can get now. $40k is way too much, and having them spend any time doing work away from school/sports is a bad idea ... the focus needs to stay on them being students for their own good considering most of them are not going to the NBA and the education will pay back many times over in their lifetime. The g-league option is where they go if they want to try to shortcut the college route and I'm fine with that being an option.

Ok and I want them to do that but you keep skipping something:
In my plan the stipend money comes from the NCAA not the school

The schools arenít shelling money out and having to shut down programs. If Title IX has already balanced out the spending, then adding spending wonít change that.

Again in this proposal the school isnít paying anything. The NCAA is paying what the coach offers in stipend money.

Maybe instead of a max per student you do it for the team itself. Football gets $7 mil, basketball $4 mil, gymnastics gets $6mil.

If the money comes from the NCAA the schools arenít shelling out money and because the amount is set by the NCAA title IX isnít effected.

Trust me, Iíve done the background work. This is 100% feasible.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:05 PM
Ok and I want them to do that but you keep skipping something:
In my plan the stipend money comes from the NCAA not the school

The schools arenít shelling money out and having to shut down programs. If Title IX has already balanced out the spending, then adding spending wonít change that.

Again in this proposal the school isnít paying anything. The NCAA is paying what the coach offers in stipend money.

Maybe instead of a max per student you do it for the team itself. Football gets $7 mil, basketball $4 mil, gymnastics gets $6mil.

If the money comes from the NCAA the schools arenít shelling out money and because the amount is set by the NCAA title IX isnít effected.

Trust me, Iíve done the background work. This is 100% feasible.

huh? The NCAA directly only brings in about $1 billion per year of the $12 billion brought in by college athletics... $11 billion of that is ticket sales and student fees.

96% of all NCAA money gets distributed to member schools or spent on championships. The schools use that money to fund athletics programs and pay staff and coaches. A big chunk of the money is used to build and maintain stadiums and sports facilities and buy sports equipment.

Where is all this NCAA money you are talking about going to come from?

Scoots
03-01-2018, 12:28 PM
This is a fact that seems to be lost on everyone

not to mention that these division 1 athletic programs don't make as much money as people think

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/

Where are the monies from the games sent? I know there have been some lawsuits on this subject but haven't paid enough attention to know what the current state is.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 12:37 PM
Is the NCAA exempt from Title IX rules? I don't know that it is since it is made up of the schools themselves and I doubt the law would knowingly allow the schools to skirt the law by pawning it off on something they are members of.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:38 PM
Where are the monies from the games sent? I know there have been some lawsuits on this subject but haven't paid enough attention to know what the current state is.

which games? regular season? the schools get that money... it is part of the $11 billion they bring in...

again ... the idea that NCAA sports are this gold mine are laughable because of title IX

its only an optics issue because of how much the top coaches get paid.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 12:40 PM
I came up with this plan years ago:

Coming out of HS you have 2 choices - You can go into the draft or to college.

If you go into the draft: If you are drafted you go into the G-League for a minimum of 2.5 years. You can make a max salary of $1mil/year and your rookie contract starts. During this time, through an NBA approved online university you must complete an AA before being called up. If you go this route, you are not allowed to sign an agent until after the draft.

If you go undrafted, because you didn't have an agent, you are free to go to college.

If you go to college: If you go to college, you have to stay a minimum 3 years. The upside here is when you come out, you go straight to the NBA. There's no waiting, no requirement to have some type of degree. As soon as you come out you are able to sign an agent.

This system is very similar to what the MLB does with HS kids, except for the having to stay down a level for a certain amount of time. I would add an extra round to the draft since theoretically this draft is now deeper because of this. Would put some teams in a bind. If you think about the 2015 NBA draft:

Minnesota Timberwolves are at the top of the draft with pick #1. They can take Ben Simmons straight out of HS, knowing he wouldn't be able to show up unto the NBA til about now, or they can take Anthony Davis coming off his 3 years at Kentucky.

Pick number two between a very green Brandon Ingram or Bradley Beal with 3 years of development.

Are some teams more looking long term or now?

The team stipulation I would put on it:
You cannot use a lottery pick on a HS Senior 2 consecutive years.

If I commit to college I have to go 3 years? That's crazy. What's an AA?

IndyRealist
03-01-2018, 12:41 PM
You act like the one year post HS requirement is some how the only restriction on players... why should there be a rookie scale? why should there be max contracts? Why should teams have RFA rights? All of those items are restrictions on players earning ability and have nothing to do with the NCAA.

Why not use a Club system like in soccer where kids are signed at 12 and groomed and controlled by teams

You seem to be picking off one arbitrary restraint on individuals while ignoring all the others.

You also seem to be ignoring the economics of college athletics where basketball and football basically pay for all the loser sports... those sports have to be supported because of title IX ... how are you going to fund those if you pay football and basketball players? Oh yeah... tuition increases on everyone else...

I'm talking about age restrictions BECAUSE THAT'S THE TOPIC.

College athletics existed prior to becoming a billion dollar industry. You're saying they need the money to sustain the monster the money created. $10 million dollar coaches, hundred million dollar stadiums, etc. They spend the money because they have the money BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THEIR LABOR.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 12:42 PM
I am surprised so many people think LeBron James should have to go to college. You really feel comfortable forcing your values on someone else? Especially when many of these kids are in desperate need of that paycheck and you want to tell them "no go to psych 101 for 3 years then you can play basketball."

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:43 PM
Is the NCAA exempt from Title IX rules? I don't know that it is since it is made up of the schools themselves and I doubt the law would knowingly allow the schools to skirt the law by pawning it off on something they are members of.

The NCAA is a non-profit with around 97% of the money they generate going back to the schools athletic departments which are subject to title IX restrictions... the NCCA can't get around it by paying direct. It would just lead to a lawsuit by the other sports (mostly womens)

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:47 PM
I am surprised so many people think LeBron James should have to go to college. You really feel comfortable forcing your values on someone else? Especially when many of these kids are in desperate need of that paycheck and you want to tell them "no go to psych 101 for 3 years then you can play basketball."

why would LeBron have to go to college? He could of played in any number of international leagues and made more than he would currently as the #1 pick in his first year... do you feel comfortable forcing him to play for the rookie nba scale?

but yes ... lets group everyone into the outlier group of LBJ...

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:54 PM
I'm talking about age restrictions BECAUSE THAT'S THE TOPIC.

College athletics existed prior to becoming a billion dollar industry. You're saying they need the money to sustain the monster the money created. $10 million dollar coaches, hundred million dollar stadiums, etc. They spend the money because they have the money BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THEIR LABOR.

I thought you were talking about age restrictions? LMFAO

ok... so you are against all age restrictions? Should middle school kids be available to go into the draft?

where do we draw the line? Which line isn't arbitrary?

The age restriction isn't an NCAA rule it is an NBA rule. Are you suggesting a private enterprise governed by a CBA should have to do something that they feel isn't in their best interest?

what exactly are you arguing then?

you are the one conflating the age restriction with "how much college athletics makes"

one has nothing to do with the other...

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 12:55 PM
why would LeBron have to go to college? He could of played in any number of international leagues and made more than he would currently as the #1 pick in his first year... do you feel comfortable forcing him to play for the rookie nba scale?

but yes ... lets group everyone into the outlier group of LBJ...

Your logic is flawed. Why do you think the rule exists? Because of outliers. That is why those are exactly the people that we should be discussing.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 12:56 PM
Getting paid an NBA rookie contract is not the same as forcing someone leave the country or go to college to play professional basketball.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:56 PM
Your logic is flawed. Why do you think the rule exists? Because of outliers. That is why those are exactly the people that we should be discussing.

wrong... the rules exist because the NBA collectively believes there business model is better off by taking LESS risk on unproven talent. The outliers aren't there concern ... its the vast majority of busts that are their concern.

Have you ever compared the rivals 100 one year and then the NBA draft a year later?

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 12:57 PM
Getting paid an NBA rookie contract is not the same as forcing someone leave the country or go to college to play professional basketball.

no one is being forced to do anything... its free will ... no one has to go to college to go to the NBA... yours is a false choice

Shammyguy3
03-01-2018, 01:11 PM
1) Age limit should be 18.
2) No restrictions on where you want to go after high school
-- go to college
-- go overseas
-- go directly to the NBA via the NBA draft
3) extend the NBA draft to 3 rounds (with adjusted contracts for those 3rd round picks)
-- each NBA team gets their own G-League
-- every NBA team can utilize their G-league team however they want


This creates more jobs, gives more kids a chance at their dream, helps develop an NBA minor league (the G league), and mitigates the corrupt NCAA and bypasses the legality of paying college athletes.

AllBall
03-01-2018, 01:24 PM
:facepalm:

You guys are focusing on the NCAA, but the NBA has the power to essentially disrupt the Collegiate Basketball landscape overnight if they mandate that players go through their G-League first and pay them in the process.

The NBA can keep such a rule in place unless the NCAA begins to pay their athletes. The NBA will have a large windfall of money when they begin getting the 1% gambling cut.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 01:27 PM
:facepalm:

You guys are focusing on the NCAA, but the NBA has the power to essentially disrupt the Collegiate Basketball landscape overnight if they mandate that players go through their G-League first and pay them in the process.

The NBA can keep such a rule in place unless the NCAA begins to pay their athletes. The NBA will have a large windfall of money when they begin getting the 1% gambling cut.

Why would the NBA want to disrupt the NCAA? ... they don't want players coming in at 18... they would rather they come in after 3 years of post HS ball. The NBAPA is never going to fight hard in a CB negotiation to help 8-10 kids from having to wait one year to be eligible for the NBA draft.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:33 PM
:facepalm:

You guys are focusing on the NCAA, but the NBA has the power to essentially disrupt the Collegiate Basketball landscape overnight if they mandate that players go through their G-League first and pay them in the process.

The NBA can keep such a rule in place unless the NCAA begins to pay their athletes. The NBA will have a large windfall of money when they begin getting the 1% gambling cut.

The NBA isn't going to get 1% on gambling. It's in the NBAs interest to get a chance to evaluate players before they give them millions guaranteed.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:34 PM
1) Age limit should be 18.
2) No restrictions on where you want to go after high school
-- go to college
-- go overseas
-- go directly to the NBA via the NBA draft
3) extend the NBA draft to 3 rounds (with adjusted contracts for those 3rd round picks)
-- each NBA team gets their own G-League
-- every NBA team can utilize their G-league team however they want


This creates more jobs, gives more kids a chance at their dream, helps develop an NBA minor league (the G league), and mitigates the corrupt NCAA and bypasses the legality of paying college athletes.

So each NBA team gets to have 30 players under contract? Same cap or are you going to increase it? I think the NBAPA would be very much against that.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:35 PM
Read bolded.

But are players being drafted into the g-league? If so then that doesn't solve the issue.

AllBall
03-01-2018, 01:35 PM
:facepalm:

You guys are focusing on the NCAA, but the NBA has the power to essentially disrupt the Collegiate Basketball landscape overnight if they mandate that players go through their G-League first and pay them in the process.

The NBA can keep such a rule in place unless the NCAA begins to pay their athletes. The NBA will have a large windfall of money when they begin getting the 1% gambling cut.

Why would the NBA want to disrupt the NCAA? ... they don't want players coming in at 18... they would rather they come in after 3 years of post HS ball. The NBAPA is never going to fight hard in a CB negotiation to help 8-10 kids from having to wait one year to be eligible for the NBA draft.

Read bolded.


The NBA isn't going to get 1% on gambling. It's in the NBAs interest to get a chance to evaluate players before they give them millions guaranteed.

Who said to give them millions? Last I checked the G-Leauge salary is not that.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:36 PM
Read bolded.

Who said to give them millions? Last I checked the G-Leauge salary is not that.

The forum post order oddity and live edits are causing us issues :)

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:37 PM
which games? regular season? the schools get that money... it is part of the $11 billion they bring in...

again ... the idea that NCAA sports are this gold mine are laughable because of title IX

its only an optics issue because of how much the top coaches get paid.

Sorry, video games.

It's an optics issue because superstars see student athletes living on Ramen and they see that they are being taken advantage of, and they are now getting in trouble for trying to cheat the system, and once they get to the NBA they are talking about it.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 01:42 PM
The NBA isn't going to get 1% on gambling. It's in the NBAs interest to get a chance to evaluate players before they give them millions guaranteed.

the gambling revenue is such a joke it is mind boggling

and yes.. under the current CBA there is no way they want less evaluation time. The vets should be disgusted even now by how much money goes to unproven talent.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:42 PM
I'm talking about age restrictions BECAUSE THAT'S THE TOPIC.

College athletics existed prior to becoming a billion dollar industry. You're saying they need the money to sustain the monster the money created. $10 million dollar coaches, hundred million dollar stadiums, etc. They spend the money because they have the money BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THEIR LABOR.

The named coaches and the arenas actually help increase the revenue. It's the huge amount of money spent on stupid stuff or things that don't increase revenue that bugs me. I think they need to do revenue sharing to flatten the NCAA member schools out some. More parity is better!

AllBall
03-01-2018, 01:42 PM
But are players being drafted into the g-league? If so then that doesn't solve the issue.

Yes. Why not? They will get paid. With top talent coming out of HS into the G-League you can draw more viewership and generate more revenue.

And why aren't they going to get 1% gambling cut? The additional money can be further used to invest and develop the farm system.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 01:42 PM
If I commit to college I have to go 3 years? That's crazy. What's an AA?

An associates of arts degree.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 01:44 PM
:facepalm:

You guys are focusing on the NCAA, but the NBA has the power to essentially disrupt the Collegiate Basketball landscape overnight if they mandate that players go through their G-League first and pay them in the process.

The NBA can keep such a rule in place unless the NCAA begins to pay their athletes. The NBA will have a large windfall of money when they begin getting the 1% gambling cut.

The nba already disrupted the NCAA with the one and done.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 01:46 PM
Read bolded.



Who said to give them millions? Last I checked the G-Leauge salary is not that.

so you are going to expand the G League? You understand that all teams have full rosters at this point... right?

all you are proposing is to swap out roster spots for younger less experienced players ... right?

Added revenue? what do you think the upside of the G league would be? some big national tv deal because some 18 year old kids are playing? LMFAO

You guys truly are delusional to think you know better how to organize the business interests of the league...

the age restrictions exist for one reason and one reason only ... to eliminate risk for the owners

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:48 PM
Yes. Why not? They will get paid. With top talent coming out of HS into the G-League you can draw more viewership and generate more revenue.

And why aren't they going to get 1% gambling cut? The additional money can be further used to invest and develop the farm system.

If they are drafted then teams are choosing them with no knowledge of what they will become ... do those teams that draft, pay, and develop them in the g-league then going to own their NBA rights too? I doubt that's going to be accepted by the NBAPA.

The gambling industry is never going to give the NBA 1% of all bets made. There is no way it's going to happen. I understand that the NBA WANTS the 1%, but the idea that all of the casinos, bookies, and gambling services in the world will voluntarily choose to just give a significant portion of their margin to the NBA is crazy, not to mention that as soon as they pay the NBA then every other even that's bet on will want their 1% too. You are literally asking an entire industry to voluntarily give away a significant portion of their profit.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 01:50 PM
Sorry, video games.

It's an optics issue because superstars see student athletes living on Ramen and they see that they are being taken advantage of, and they are now getting in trouble for trying to cheat the system, and once they get to the NBA they are talking about it.

seriously? that is part of the $1 billion that gets sent back to the athletic dept's

How is a college athlete dietary habits vastly different than any other struggling college student...

those talking about are ignorant of the facts... you can't stop dumb athletes from opining.

The one thing that I do disagree with is how much the coaches make... there should be restrictions on what the actual universities pay them especially public ones.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:52 PM
I am surprised so many people think LeBron James should have to go to college. You really feel comfortable forcing your values on someone else? Especially when many of these kids are in desperate need of that paycheck and you want to tell them "no go to psych 101 for 3 years then you can play basketball."

It has nothing to do with my values or force. Force is a word with a definition and LeBron was not being threatened with violence to go to college. It's a choice. And the NBA can run it's business the way it wants (within the strictures of the constitution and the exemption from congress to the monopoly laws agreed upon by the NBA and the NBAPA in the collective bargaining agreement). In other words, LeBron is free to do whatever he wants but as long as the NBA and the players union agree on the rules on what it takes to work for the NBA those are the rules. Same as any other job.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:54 PM
The NCAA is a non-profit with around 97% of the money they generate going back to the schools athletic departments which are subject to title IX restrictions... the NCCA can't get around it by paying direct. It would just lead to a lawsuit by the other sports (mostly womens)

That's what I thought.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 01:55 PM
why would LeBron have to go to college? He could of played in any number of international leagues and made more than he would currently as the #1 pick in his first year... do you feel comfortable forcing him to play for the rookie nba scale?

but yes ... lets group everyone into the outlier group of LBJ...

I think a lot of people are forgetting the fact that the vast majority of college athletes never play their sport again after college.

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 01:56 PM
If they are drafted then teams are choosing them with no knowledge of what they will become ... do those teams that draft, pay, and develop them in the g-league then going to own their NBA rights too? I doubt that's going to be accepted by the NBAPA.

The gambling industry is never going to give the NBA 1% of all bets made. There is no way it's going to happen. I understand that the NBA WANTS the 1%, but the idea that all of the casinos, bookies, and gambling services in the world will voluntarily choose to just give a significant portion of their margin to the NBA is crazy, not to mention that as soon as they pay the NBA then every other even that's bet on will want their 1% too. You are literally asking an entire industry to voluntarily give away a significant portion of their profit.

yeah.. .the gambling cut is unbelievably ignorant... not to mention impossible to enforce since the vast majority of wagers are made illegally and will only increase as a percentage if the returns on legal ones are squeezed. This doesn't even begin to address the trust issues the league would have with fixing games.

Imagine if the WCF had Utah and GS in it and it came down to a game 7... which team do you think the league would fix the game for in terms of officiating... god knows that would never happen LOL

Vinylman
03-01-2018, 01:57 PM
I think a lot of people are forgetting the fact that the vast majority of college athletes never play their sport again after college.

they always use the outliers as the example... just like the media because while illogical to anyone with a brain it appeals to people on an emotional level.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 02:00 PM
That's what I thought.

Unless they give the same amount to both sides. Which is my proposal. That it all balances out in the end. Pay all sports. Not just basketball and football.

Have the money go from the NCAA to the student athletes so they can track, and now if a student doesnít get the payment itís on the NCAA not the school.

Basically: charge the NCAA with regulating and operating it as opposed to the school itself. IMO the NCAA is the one that enables schools to cheat based on the way that they operate the regulations.

Let student athletes take endorsements if they want to. Put a cap on it and make the payment go through the NCAA.

Doing that is not against title IX at all. Title IX says that there must be equal funding and opportunities for both men and women. My proposal is the NCAA ensuring schools operate by this standard.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:01 PM
the gambling revenue is such a joke it is mind boggling

and yes.. under the current CBA there is no way they want less evaluation time. The vets should be disgusted even now by how much money goes to unproven talent.

Which is why they agreed so quickly to the two-way contracts for undrafted players. I would have no issue with the NBA going to 5, 10, or even 15 two-way contracts per team to solve the issue of people who don't want to go to college, but people should understand that that is rightly in the favor of the teams signing the players because it is a two way agreement with the teams being willing to pay an athlete who is not ready for the NBA and develop them until they are ready, then that NBA team gets a right of first refusal on their first NBA contract and since that team controls how much playing time they get it's not really going to result in big pay days like being a first round pick out of college.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:04 PM
the age restrictions exist for one reason and one reason only ... to eliminate risk for the owners

Welllll ... to reduce the risk to the owners.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 02:06 PM
Which is why they agreed so quickly to the two-way contracts for undrafted players. I would have no issue with the NBA going to 5, 10, or even 15 two-way contracts per team to solve the issue of people who don't want to go to college, but people should understand that that is rightly in the favor of the teams signing the players because it is a two way agreement with the teams being willing to pay an athlete who is not ready for the NBA and develop them until they are ready, then that NBA team gets a right of first refusal on their first NBA contract and since that team controls how much playing time they get it's not really going to result in big pay days like being a first round pick out of college.

I would just make it a g-league contracts that you own the rights to and whose NBA contract starts as soon as they get called up, payed a prorated amount based on time started. Thatís how the MLB does it for non top picks.

So is someone signed in 2019 gets called up in 2020, he becomes a RFA in 2024 or a full URFA in 2025.

Personally I think Vets would go for this. More money in their pool, better developed talent to play with, and young kids could get paid sooner.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:09 PM
seriously? that is part of the $1 billion that gets sent back to the athletic dept's

How is a college athlete dietary habits vastly different than any other struggling college student...

those talking about are ignorant of the facts... you can't stop dumb athletes from opining.

The one thing that I do disagree with is how much the coaches make... there should be restrictions on what the actual universities pay them especially public ones.

That was the question ... I just didn't know if the video game money went to the NCAA or if it was spun off somewhere else.

The average college student can get a job, and the average non-scholarship college student has parents that can afford to subsidize their lives at school. If you were living at a poverty level at school, seeing your friends live a better standard of living, and seeing the money the college was making off of your actions, and being told on a daily basis that you walk on water ... it's not hard to see how that would lead to hard feelings. I think the issue really started because the stipend was too low and the restrictions were too draconian.

If the colleges made less money on athletics or were forced to more evenly distribute the money they wouldn't have the money for the coaches ... but the colleges are allowed to take huge money from boosters and spend it on the coaches and the arenas and I'm not sure anybody can do anything about that.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 02:09 PM
Funny thing is look back at past drafts. We didnít have this many one-and-done players until the NBA implemented it. Until then the HS players drafted were seen as locks to be good with few busts. And guys that went to college tended to stay for multiple years because they were told to work on their game. Every year since then there has been a higher and higher number of underclassmen drafted and declaring. Euros arenít just better players, theyíre better developed than North American players so they have a chance of being seen as better.

One and done may have hurt the NCAA, but I think itís had a far more negative impact on the draft and nba than expected.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:14 PM
Unless they give the same amount to both sides. Which is my proposal. That it all balances out in the end. Pay all sports. Not just basketball and football.

Have the money go from the NCAA to the student athletes so they can track, and now if a student doesnít get the payment itís on the NCAA not the school.

Basically: charge the NCAA with regulating and operating it as opposed to the school itself. IMO the NCAA is the one that enables schools to cheat based on the way that they operate the regulations.

Let student athletes take endorsements if they want to. Put a cap on it and make the payment go through the NCAA.

Doing that is not against title IX at all. Title IX says that there must be equal funding and opportunities for both men and women. My proposal is the NCAA ensuring schools operate by this standard.

I thought you were saying the money would be a recruiting tool ... now it sounds like it will be equal for every athlete. That sounds like it's the same as it is now but with just more money which I'm fine with (though $40k will NEVER fly, they will have to close 80% of all college sports programs down).

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:18 PM
I would just make it a g-league contracts that you own the rights to and whose NBA contract starts as soon as they get called up, payed a prorated amount based on time started. Thatís how the MLB does it for non top picks.

So is someone signed in 2019 gets called up in 2020, he becomes a RFA in 2024 or a full URFA in 2025.

Personally I think Vets would go for this. More money in their pool, better developed talent to play with, and young kids could get paid sooner.

The vets would go for it sure ... but how do you judge where to "slot" that first NBA contract? If they were drafted into the g-league first overall and after 2 years they are a functional player but not worth that 1st overall contract the team will just cut them rather than overpay them. If they are drafted into the g-league 90th and it becomes evident that they are a superstar in two weeks in the g-league and call them up their first contract is going to be a pittance. That ranking system is the advantage to the players going to school ... they are drafted more closely to what their real value will be. I'm not being critical, I just don't see how the players would agree to that system. MLB has arbiters for this conflict, but they also have longer careers and a lot more players on a roster.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:20 PM
Funny thing is look back at past drafts. We didnít have this many one-and-done players until the NBA implemented it. Until then the HS players drafted were seen as locks to be good with few busts. And guys that went to college tended to stay for multiple years because they were told to work on their game. Every year since then there has been a higher and higher number of underclassmen drafted and declaring. Euros arenít just better players, theyíre better developed than North American players so they have a chance of being seen as better.

One and done may have hurt the NCAA, but I think itís had a far more negative impact on the draft and nba than expected.

The NBA had a ban on high school players, then they took it back, then they put it back in.

The NFL has, I think a 2 year minimum from high school doesn't it? It's just that there were high schoolers who succeeded spectacularly in the NBA that made it an issue from that perspective.

Hawkeye15
03-01-2018, 02:22 PM
yeah... there is no easy solution... can you just imagine all the title IX whining that would go on...

you can't not pay the girls cross country team if you are going to pay the football players...

I am sure schools would gladly pay players if they didn't have to deal with title IX compliance (ie they would get rid of most of those sports) and only keep the sports that make money

and I think most would prefer that they keep title IX intact. Most college athletes (almost all) won't make money playing a sport. I personally feel there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in offering athletic scholarship money to thousands of students, rather than paying a select few football and basketball players that will end up making millions from the sport anyways.

The only real solution is to squash the corruption from boosters, alumni, and literally destroy the programs caught cheating.

Hawkeye15
03-01-2018, 02:23 PM
I can't stand the fact that there is a rule preventing individuals from achieving their dream. If a high school kid wants to go make millions of dollars in the NBA he should be allowed to declare for the draft whenever he wants. Forcing that person to go play pretend "student"-athlete for a year is a joke.

my only problem with it, is they pretend they are protecting the kids with the 3 years removed in football and the 1 and done in basketball. That **** isn't helping kids at all.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 02:23 PM
I thought you were saying the money would be a recruiting tool ... now it sounds like it will be equal for every athlete. That sounds like it's the same as it is now but with just more money which I'm fine with (though $40k will NEVER fly, they will have to close 80% of all college sports programs down).

No no. The endorsement money could be a tool (totaling up to $40k). But yes itís equal chance for every student.

Letís say you coach at Stanford. You recruit a 3 Star guy and a 5 Star guy. You can chose to offer the 3 Star less if you chose. So thatís where it could be a tool is a lesser program might be salivating over the the 3 Star guy and offer him the most the NCAA allows.

And lower the amount. I donít care. I was throwing numbers out there. $5,000 stipend a semester and up to $5,000 in local endorsements for a total of $15,000 a year. I donít really care.

Just compensate players for the fact they make the school and NCAA money and allow them to profit some off their own popularity. I could tell you in endorsements wrestling and womenís volleyball players at PSU would be the most popular after football.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:24 PM
and I think most would prefer that they keep title IX intact. Most college athletes (almost all) won't make money playing a sport. I personally feel there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in offering athletic scholarship money to thousands of students, rather than paying a select few football and basketball players that will end up making millions from the sport anyways.

The only real solution is to squash the corruption from boosters, alumni, and literally destroy the programs caught cheating.

I agree that college athletics are vastly positive. That said the NCAA clearly isn't up to the task of keeping the schools honest and I don't really know how it could be done. I don't know that there is enough money to have a thousand 3 person teams of auditors randomly selects and randomly traveling from school to school and monitoring all of the doings and lifestyles of all of the players and staffs of all of the athletic programs of the 1100 NCAA member schools.

If it's impossible maybe college athletics is just fundamentally doomed.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:26 PM
my only problem with it, is they pretend they are protecting the kids with the 3 years removed in football and the 1 and done in basketball. That **** isn't helping kids at all.

Welllll ... yes and no. A lot of high school stud athletes think they can make it in the pros and can throw away a chance at an education for nothing. I think there is merit to "protecting" them.

Shammyguy3
03-01-2018, 02:27 PM
So each NBA team gets to have 30 players under contract? Same cap or are you going to increase it? I think the NBAPA would be very much against that.

there are already 26 G-league teams. Many of the players on those teams are already on NBA team payrolls. Say each G-League contract (i.e. 3rd round picks) is $75,000. That would raise a team's cap only $1,125,000 for 15 players. And that's before removing the players already on NBA teams payrolls that are sent down/up that occurs regularly.

It creates more jobs and opportunities for players. I don't see how the NBAPA would be against such a thing actually.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:28 PM
No no. The endorsement money could be a tool (totaling up to $40k). But yes itís equal chance for every student.

Letís say you coach at Stanford. You recruit a 3 Star guy and a 5 Star guy. You can chose to offer the 3 Star less if you chose. So thatís where it could be a tool is a lesser program might be salivating over the the 3 Star guy and offer him the most the NCAA allows.

And lower the amount. I donít care. I was throwing numbers out there. $5,000 stipend a semester and up to $5,000 in local endorsements for a total of $15,000 a year. I donít really care.

Just compensate players for the fact they make the school and NCAA money and allow them to profit some off their own popularity. I could tell you in endorsements wrestling and womenís volleyball players at PSU would be the most popular after football.

I'm not okay with student athletes being obliged to do anything besides learning and playing their sport.

I think the colleges and NCAA could support $10k per student athlete without getting endorsements into it.

And I fail to see how allowing endorsements gets the corruption out of the system.

Hawkeye15
03-01-2018, 02:32 PM
I agree that college athletics are vastly positive. That said the NCAA clearly isn't up to the task of keeping the schools honest and I don't really know how it could be done. I don't know that there is enough money to have a thousand 3 person teams of auditors randomly selects and randomly traveling from school to school and monitoring all of the doings and lifestyles of all of the players and staffs of all of the athletic programs of the 1100 NCAA member schools.

If it's impossible maybe college athletics is just fundamentally doomed.

could be. Corruption runs the highest level of our own government. Why wouldn't it run something as large as the NCAA, due to the sheer amount of money involved?

Hawkeye15
03-01-2018, 02:32 PM
Welllll ... yes and no. A lot of high school stud athletes think they can make it in the pros and can throw away a chance at an education for nothing. I think there is merit to "protecting" them.

fair point. But what is 1 year of college going to get you? You just lost out on 1 year of even a janitor salary haha.

IndyRealist
03-01-2018, 02:33 PM
Welllll ... yes and no. A lot of high school stud athletes think they can make it in the pros and can throw away a chance at an education for nothing. I think there is merit to "protecting" them.

It's thrown away only due to their own rules about being an amateur athlete. It does not have to be that way.

IndyRealist
03-01-2018, 02:34 PM
and I think most would prefer that they keep title IX intact. Most college athletes (almost all) won't make money playing a sport. I personally feel there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in offering athletic scholarship money to thousands of students, rather than paying a select few football and basketball players that will end up making millions from the sport anyways.

The only real solution is to squash the corruption from boosters, alumni, and literally destroy the programs caught cheating.

That's awfully socialist.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 02:36 PM
I'm not okay with student athletes being obliged to do anything besides learning and playing their sport.

I think the colleges and NCAA could support $10k per student athlete without getting endorsements into it.

And I fail to see how allowing endorsements gets the corruption out of the system.

A few things:

It already happens. Guy comes up tells you to sign some stuff at his office, and it will be a paid internship.

The student doesnít have to do an endorsement. Thereís just a cap on how much you can make. Weíre ok with work study programs. I know a guy that was a football player, had a full load of 5 classes, and did a work study as an intramural seed working 25 hours a week at $7.25 an hour. Thatís about $1800 a semester for 200 hours of work. You donít think he would rather do one afternoon on a Saturday at a local car dealership taking pictures and recording 4 commercials and make $5000? I would bet every student athlete would rather do the endorsements than do a work study.

Hawkeye15
03-01-2018, 02:40 PM
That's awfully socialist.

we can't turn our education system into a business. Not in my opinion. Or at least if we are going to, make it a full on business and stop hiding it.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 02:46 PM
there are already 26 G-league teams. Many of the players on those teams are already on NBA team payrolls. Say each G-League contract (i.e. 3rd round picks) is $75,000. That would raise a team's cap only $1,125,000 for 15 players. And that's before removing the players already on NBA teams payrolls that are sent down/up that occurs regularly.

It creates more jobs and opportunities for players. I don't see how the NBAPA would be against such a thing actually.

I'm fine with that, but how their NBA contracts are negotiated is the issue I see with it. If those players can be brought up to the NBA on contracts like undrafted players they will then be pushing out veterans and the highschoolers thinking they'd get instant millions will be pissed off to make it to the NBA for the rookie minimum deal ... that's where the NBAPA would start to have a lot of questions I think.

LongIslandIcedZ
03-01-2018, 02:53 PM
There is so much gray area with paying college students, I think that it is basically a non-starter. How do you pay UConn's mens basketball players, without paying the women's team. How do you pay UConn's Womens Basketball without paying Stanford's Womens Basketball. There are just way too many programs in the country for this to be worked out IMO. Do you pay students as a percentage of revenue generated? I dont see that going too well.

I think at 18, you should be able to do what you want. You're an adult. You want to go to college, you do that. You want to declare for the draft, that is your right.

I hate the idea of forcing players to play in the G-League. If you are at high enough level to play in the NBA, you shouldnt have to play in the minors. Imagine if Lebron had to play in the G-League for 2 years when he came in? Totally unnecessary.

I was originally in favor of the baseball rules, but I think I've changed my mind since. Why should someone be forced to stay in college if they can make a career outside of it. That doesnt seem fair to me at all.

Overall, I think players should be allowed to do what they want. You can go pro out of HS. You can pro any time after that.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 03:12 PM
wrong... the rules exist because the NBA collectively believes there business model is better off by taking LESS risk on unproven talent. The outliers aren't there concern ... its the vast majority of busts that are their concern.

Have you ever compared the rivals 100 one year and then the NBA draft a year later?

Exactly and those players that are considered worthy of being drafted out of high school are outliers. What percentage of high school players used to get drafted? I'm not sure how many 0's to use but 0.001% sounds about right. How is that not an outlier? Not enough standard deviations from the mean? :laugh:


no one is being forced to do anything... its free will ... no one has to go to college to go to the NBA... yours is a false choice

Yes. If I'm LeBron James and I am NBA ready as a senior in high school I am being prevented from fulfilling my dream to play NBA Basketball because I have to pretend I care about college for 1 semester or go overseas. I get why those choices are limited but it doesn't make me agree with it.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 03:16 PM
there are already 26 G-league teams. Many of the players on those teams are already on NBA team payrolls. Say each G-League contract (i.e. 3rd round picks) is $75,000. That would raise a team's cap only $1,125,000 for 15 players. And that's before removing the players already on NBA teams payrolls that are sent down/up that occurs regularly.

It creates more jobs and opportunities for players. I don't see how the NBAPA would be against such a thing actually.

I don't know much about the G-League but it seems like it is minor league basketball and that makes a lot of sense. I don't think G-League players should have to stay in the "minors" for a predetermined amount of time though. If they are ready to be promoted that should be on the table.

I like this compromise idea the best. Let the players out of high school be drafted to the G-League.

IndyRealist
03-01-2018, 04:04 PM
I don't know much about the G-League but it seems like it is minor league basketball and that makes a lot of sense. I don't think G-League players should have to stay in the "minors" for a predetermined amount of time though. If they are ready to be promoted that should be on the table.

I like this compromise idea the best. Let the players out of high school be drafted to the G-League.

That's where I am too. Let adults decide their career path. Not everybody is cut out for college. The only reason we have one and done is because the NBA half-azzed their minor league.

Hawkeye15
03-01-2018, 04:15 PM
That's where I am too. Let adults decide their career path. Not everybody is cut out for college. The only reason we have one and done is because the NBA half-azzed their minor league.

absolutely right dude

Scoots
03-01-2018, 04:50 PM
Yes. If I'm LeBron James and I am NBA ready as a senior in high school I am being prevented from fulfilling my dream to play NBA Basketball because I have to pretend I care about college for 1 semester or go overseas. I get why those choices are limited but it doesn't make me agree with it.

That's still not force, it's a choice.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 04:52 PM
That's where I am too. Let adults decide their career path. Not everybody is cut out for college. The only reason we have one and done is because the NBA half-azzed their minor league.

They are already trying to get all the teams to get a g-league team. We are on our way to a real minor league for the first time ever.

warfelg
03-01-2018, 05:14 PM
That's still not force, it's a choice.

Yup. A choice of get money now or get an education.

Shammyguy3
03-01-2018, 05:50 PM
I'm fine with that, but how their NBA contracts are negotiated is the issue I see with it. If those players can be brought up to the NBA on contracts like undrafted players they will then be pushing out veterans and the highschoolers thinking they'd get instant millions will be pissed off to make it to the NBA for the rookie minimum deal ... that's where the NBAPA would start to have a lot of questions I think.

The veterans that miss playing time still get paid, right? And it wouldn't be any different as a one-and-done rookie just coming into the league taking a vets minutes. And the contracts would be set already, because it would be a draft slot determining the annual salary. So, it wouldn't be any different than before when there wasn't a 19yo age limit.

So again, I don't see anything that the NBAPA would be against.


I don't know much about the G-League but it seems like it is minor league basketball and that makes a lot of sense. I don't think G-League players should have to stay in the "minors" for a predetermined amount of time though. If they are ready to be promoted that should be on the table.

I like this compromise idea the best. Let the players out of high school be drafted to the G-League.


I don't see why there would need to be any restrictions on bringing guys up, you have the rights to them; you can play them in the NBA if they are ready at 18, or if they aren't up to NBA pace/style then keep them down until, at that teams' discretion, they're ready

Scoots
03-01-2018, 05:58 PM
Yup. A choice of get money now or get an education.

Or go work a real job or join the military or go play in a different pro league or...

So, it all comes back to:
NBA wants a chance to evaluate players against higher end competition, and doesn't want to pay for it.
Non-NBA players want a free education, to have the option to be a lottery pick
Colleges want players and are willing to pay with a free education and a stipend

The issues are:
NBA doesn't want to pay for it.
Non-NBA players are not all good enough to be lottery picks and probably think they are better than they are.
Colleges cheat and don't distribute as much money as they get for sports to the players.

I don't see a solution that will make all 3 100% happy.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 06:05 PM
The veterans that miss playing time still get paid, right? And it wouldn't be any different as a one-and-done rookie just coming into the league taking a vets minutes. And the contracts would be set already, because it would be a draft slot determining the annual salary. So, it wouldn't be any different than before when there wasn't a 19yo age limit.

So again, I don't see anything that the NBAPA would be against.




I don't see why there would need to be any restrictions on bringing guys up, you have the rights to them; you can play them in the NBA if they are ready at 18, or if they aren't up to NBA pace/style then keep them down until, at that teams' discretion, they're ready

Just to clarify, if you are saying if you skip college you get drafted into the g-league instead of the NBA and they are set by draft slot when they were drafted to the g-league then how do they know before they spend time in college or the g-league how they will grow? Or are the college guys and the high school guys drafted together? If the high school guys are not eligible for the NBA will they be allowed to be drafted in the 1st round? And if they are 3rd round picks into the g-league then they are all essentially going to get rookie minimum deals based on slot.

Shammyguy3
03-01-2018, 06:08 PM
Just to clarify, if you are saying if you skip college you get drafted into the g-league instead of the NBA and they are set by draft slot when they were drafted to the g-league then how do they know before they spend time in college or the g-league how they will grow? Or are the college guys and the high school guys drafted together? If the high school guys are not eligible for the NBA will they be allowed to be drafted in the 1st round? And if they are 3rd round picks into the g-league then they are all essentially going to get rookie minimum deals based on slot.

Everyone declares for the same NBA draft. But the draft is one round longer. And if Cleveland feels 18 year old Lebron James would be better playing 2 months on their minor-league team (G-league Cavs, in this scenario) then that's where Lebron plays for 2 months.

Jamiecballer
03-01-2018, 06:41 PM
There are only two issues here for me.

One, its awfully tough to get by while dedicating your time to your craft and an education, so for that reason i support every student athlete being paid something equivalent to what a person working a part time job gets. No need to worry about how much different athletes of different sports get and this is not that costly. If an athlete chooses to go out and get a better than min wage job than they dont get the handout similar to how employment insurance works in this country.


Specific to the NBA though there is some merit to the complaint that you have to pretend to give a **** about an education for a year. While I personally have no problem with making them all graduate before entering the NBA if a proper development league was in place the point would be moot. The Raptors have benefitted greatly since acquiring the 905, it boggles my mind that we cant find a way to give each team their own and expand the draft to 3 rounds and be done with it. Because i dont know of any argument against allowing players to come straight from high school that isn't defeated by a minor league system.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
03-01-2018, 06:48 PM
I am surprised so many people think LeBron James should have to go to college. You really feel comfortable forcing your values on someone else? Especially when many of these kids are in desperate need of that paycheck and you want to tell them "no go to psych 101 for 3 years then you can play basketball."I am 100% comfortable with that. Playing in the nba is not a birthright.

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Jamiecballer
03-01-2018, 06:48 PM
wrong... the rules exist because the NBA collectively believes there business model is better off by taking LESS risk on unproven talent. The outliers aren't there concern ... its the vast majority of busts that are their concern.

Have you ever compared the rivals 100 one year and then the NBA draft a year later?Bingo

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Scoots
03-01-2018, 11:39 PM
Everyone declares for the same NBA draft. But the draft is one round longer. And if Cleveland feels 18 year old Lebron James would be better playing 2 months on their minor-league team (G-league Cavs, in this scenario) then that's where Lebron plays for 2 months.

So you still completely skip the part where the NBA teams want to evaluate the high school players before they draft them. If we are replacing college with the g-league then the teams drafting for the g-league doesn't meet that need.

Scoots
03-01-2018, 11:41 PM
There are only two issues here for me.

One, its awfully tough to get by while dedicating your time to your craft and an education, so for that reason i support every student athlete being paid something equivalent to what a person working a part time job gets. No need to worry about how much different athletes of different sports get and this is not that costly. If an athlete chooses to go out and get a better than min wage job than they dont get the handout similar to how employment insurance works in this country.


Specific to the NBA though there is some merit to the complaint that you have to pretend to give a **** about an education for a year. While I personally have no problem with making them all graduate before entering the NBA if a proper development league was in place the point would be moot. The Raptors have benefitted greatly since acquiring the 905, it boggles my mind that we cant find a way to give each team their own and expand the draft to 3 rounds and be done with it. Because i dont know of any argument against allowing players to come straight from high school that isn't defeated by a minor league system.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

The NBA has been trying to get every team to get a g-league team, but it's not a matter of them being "given" to the NBA teams, they have to choose to pay for them, and there are still some teams that refuse.

Shammyguy3
03-02-2018, 12:25 AM
So you still completely skip the part where the NBA teams want to evaluate the high school players before they draft them. If we are replacing college with the g-league then the teams drafting for the g-league doesn't meet that need.

Im seriously lost. What are you arguing? That NBA teams cant scout high school players?

ewing
03-02-2018, 12:26 AM
I've always like the Van Gundy's and agree with most of what Stan says but he has gotten obnoxious. I don't doubt that its what he thinks bit it seems staged.

FOXHOUND
03-02-2018, 04:02 AM
Im seriously lost. What are you arguing? That NBA teams cant scout high school players?

Teams can scout high school players, but the level of difference from high school to the NBA is enormous.

Take someone like Zion Williamson, for example. Here is a kid who is 6'7, 270 pounds and if he stepped on an NBA court tomorrow would be one of the best athletes in the league. How the hell is your average high school player supposed to play basketball against him and how can you possibly evaluate him properly?

Just like there are players who look excellent in college and then bust in the NBA, there are top rated HS prospects who get to college and get exposed for one reason or another. That buffer is very important for the NBA and is why it exists. The level of quality in prospects has increased dramatically since the one and done rule was implemented. It's been great for the NBA.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 09:03 AM
The NBA has been trying to get every team to get a g-league team, but it's not a matter of them being "given" to the NBA teams, they have to choose to pay for them, and there are still some teams that refuse.

well... the NBA does pretty well, they certainly could subsidize them if they cared to, of that I have zero doubt.

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:29 AM
Welllll ... to reduce the risk to the owners.

bravo! a more accurate term!

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:32 AM
and I think most would prefer that they keep title IX intact. Most college athletes (almost all) won't make money playing a sport. I personally feel there is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more value in offering athletic scholarship money to thousands of students, rather than paying a select few football and basketball players that will end up making millions from the sport anyways.

The only real solution is to squash the corruption from boosters, alumni, and literally destroy the programs caught cheating.

I agree... I wasn't suggesting to get rid of title IX... just showing the trade-offs

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:42 AM
there are already 26 G-league teams. Many of the players on those teams are already on NBA team payrolls. Say each G-League contract (i.e. 3rd round picks) is $75,000. That would raise a team's cap only $1,125,000 for 15 players. And that's before removing the players already on NBA teams payrolls that are sent down/up that occurs regularly.

It creates more jobs and opportunities for players. I don't see how the NBAPA would be against such a thing actually.

there are only 2 2 way contracts per team...

The G league rosters are at 12 ... why would they expand to 15? So more guys can watch games from the bench and the teams lose more money than they already do?

Again... your model doesn't make any economic or developmental sense

btw... you only have to be 18 to play in the G League

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:44 AM
There is so much gray area with paying college students, I think that it is basically a non-starter. How do you pay UConn's mens basketball players, without paying the women's team. How do you pay UConn's Womens Basketball without paying Stanford's Womens Basketball. There are just way too many programs in the country for this to be worked out IMO. Do you pay students as a percentage of revenue generated? I dont see that going too well.

I think at 18, you should be able to do what you want. You're an adult. You want to go to college, you do that. You want to declare for the draft, that is your right.

I hate the idea of forcing players to play in the G-League. If you are at high enough level to play in the NBA, you shouldnt have to play in the minors. Imagine if Lebron had to play in the G-League for 2 years when he came in? Totally unnecessary.

I was originally in favor of the baseball rules, but I think I've changed my mind since. Why should someone be forced to stay in college if they can make a career outside of it. That doesnt seem fair to me at all.

Overall, I think players should be allowed to do what they want. You can go pro out of HS. You can pro any time after that.

LOLOLOLOLOL

No it isn't ... the league has determined to exclude those players... you can't force a business to do what you want...

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:47 AM
Exactly and those players that are considered worthy of being drafted out of high school are outliers. What percentage of high school players used to get drafted? I'm not sure how many 0's to use but 0.001% sounds about right. How is that not an outlier? Not enough standard deviations from the mean? :laugh:



Yes. If I'm LeBron James and I am NBA ready as a senior in high school I am being prevented from fulfilling my dream to play NBA Basketball because I have to pretend I care about college for 1 semester or go overseas. I get why those choices are limited but it doesn't make me agree with it.

No one said you had to agree with it... The NBA is a business and can set its own rules

The concept of collective bargain excludes the rights of the outliers like Lebron because the overall system is in place to serve the many

If you want to argue about NCAA compensation have at it but this notion that the NBA has to take HS players is laughable on its face

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:50 AM
That's where I am too. Let adults decide their career path. Not everybody is cut out for college. The only reason we have one and done is because the NBA half-azzed their minor league.

wrong... they did it to reduce the risk of busts and the NBAPA agreed to it in the CBA because they saw all the busts making huge money... its the same reason the rookie scale was put in place.

And again... you keep pushing your false choice of college or nothing... there are plenty of other leagues the player can make money in...

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 09:57 AM
Teams can scout high school players, but the level of difference from high school to the NBA is enormous.

Take someone like Zion Williamson, for example. Here is a kid who is 6'7, 270 pounds and if he stepped on an NBA court tomorrow would be one of the best athletes in the league. How the hell is your average high school player supposed to play basketball against him and how can you possibly evaluate him properly?

Just like there are players who look excellent in college and then bust in the NBA, there are top rated HS prospects who get to college and get exposed for one reason or another. That buffer is very important for the NBA and is why it exists. The level of quality in prospects has increased dramatically since the one and done rule was implemented. It's been great for the NBA.

funny you used him as an example because he is probably one of the most likely busts in the top 10 of his HS class...

He is so much like Shabazz and Bennett it isn't even funny

and the bolded shows the policy is working and could probably be enhanced by making it two years removed from HS....

Scoots
03-02-2018, 10:07 AM
Im seriously lost. What are you arguing? That NBA teams cant scout high school players?

No, they don't WANT to. The NBA wants to have some time to evaluate players at a higher level than high school which is why they have the time after high school requirement for a draft. Your solution is to draft them out of high school which the NBA specifically doesn't want. The NBA's issue is not player development which the g-league does, but higher level player evaluation BEFORE they draft a player.

Vinylman
03-02-2018, 10:27 AM
No, they don't WANT to. The NBA wants to have some time to evaluate players at a higher level than high school which is why they have the time after high school requirement for a draft. Your solution is to draft them out of high school which the NBA specifically doesn't want. The NBA's issue is not player development which the g-league does, but higher level player evaluation BEFORE they draft a player.

yep ... but this is only the bi-product of the rookie scale...

I am sure the NBA wouldn't give a **** about drafting HS players if the slotting for rookies was a lot lower... something that started with the first pick at $3 million which was their negotiating position last go around that the players rejected because they didn't think it was fair to have those players on such low contracts for so long.

Scoots
03-02-2018, 11:20 AM
yep ... but this is only the bi-product of the rookie scale...

I am sure the NBA wouldn't give a **** about drafting HS players if the slotting for rookies was a lot lower... something that started with the first pick at $3 million which was their negotiating position last go around that the players rejected because they didn't think it was fair to have those players on such low contracts for so long.

Right, so we get back to the same old issue. The NBA wants a hands-off way to evaluate players post high school and the NCAA is a mess but at least it's not the NBA's mess. And the players get screwed coming and going.

IndyRealist
03-02-2018, 01:44 PM
wrong... they did it to reduce the risk of busts and the NBAPA agreed to it in the CBA because they saw all the busts making huge money... its the same reason the rookie scale was put in place.

And again... you keep pushing your false choice of college or nothing... there are plenty of other leagues the player can make money in...

You're so busy trying to push your agenda you're not following. One an done would not exist if the NBA had a comprehensive minor league where the NBA can evaluate and develop players in a cost controlled manner.

Scoots
03-02-2018, 01:51 PM
You're so busy trying to push your agenda you're not following. One an done would not exist if the NBA had a comprehensive minor league where the NBA can evaluate and develop players in a cost controlled manner.

We agree on that, however, some teams don't want to pay for it, and I'm not sure the NBA wants to be directly in that business because it gets much trickier with the CBA negotiations if the minor league is a direct part of the NBA. I think the NBA would prefer to keep things mostly the way they are or up the minimum years out of high school to 2, but then they run afoul of the NBAPA.

I guess the issue here is, is it the NBA's job to do ANYTHING about the NCAA's issues or the NBAPA's issues with the NCAA ... and my guess is the NBA wants to stay out of that as much as possible. Ideally there would be a nice minor league system, but I don't think it's ever going to come close to an ideal system for everyone involved.

Firefistus
03-02-2018, 02:50 PM
We agree on that, however, some teams don't want to pay for it, and I'm not sure the NBA wants to be directly in that business because it gets much trickier with the CBA negotiations if the minor league is a direct part of the NBA. I think the NBA would prefer to keep things mostly the way they are or up the minimum years out of high school to 2, but then they run afoul of the NBAPA.

I guess the issue here is, is it the NBA's job to do ANYTHING about the NCAA's issues or the NBAPA's issues with the NCAA ... and my guess is the NBA wants to stay out of that as much as possible. Ideally there would be a nice minor league system, but I don't think it's ever going to come close to an ideal system for everyone involved.

This is something I've been thinking about a while, the NCAA is corrupt, the athletes that come out of college most of the time have nothing good to say about recruitment or the way athletes are paid. I think the way the NCAA treats basketball players specifically is appalling. They don't teach a kid how to manage money, how to manage agents, what to expect in the pro's. They don't even teach them the fast paced game or get them in pro shape!! All this is done after a kid is drafted. I know that most players aren't drafted to the NBA, but for those "can't miss" athletes that are going to be drafted, they need something that will teach them what to expect, how to train, what diets they will need, what to look for in agents and free agency. How to manage your money properly.

It would be best to have some sort of organization do this, and I think the G-League would be a great place to start, but for that to happen you would have to completely re-organize it into a separate entity. Right now it's kind of merged with the NBA, but you're going to want more of a college feel to it. I just don't think they will do that. Ball had a good idea, but it would take a lot to overtake the NCAA in viewership and revenue in order to keep the organization afloat.

But lets be real here, the NCAA will NEVER teach these basketball athletes what they really need to know going into the NBA.

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 02:54 PM
Perhaps not but lets be real - there is an enormous difference between high school and college. You can get by without doing anything in highschool and have your parents to guide you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Vinylman
03-05-2018, 10:27 AM
You're so busy trying to push your agenda you're not following. One an done would not exist if the NBA had a comprehensive minor league where the NBA can evaluate and develop players in a cost controlled manner.

who gives a **** what you want... you are the one with the agenda asking for something that doesn't exist.

And it isn't the NBA that wouldn't agree with your system it is the ****ing players

Vinylman
03-05-2018, 10:29 AM
We agree on that, however, some teams don't want to pay for it, and I'm not sure the NBA wants to be directly in that business because it gets much trickier with the CBA negotiations if the minor league is a direct part of the NBA. I think the NBA would prefer to keep things mostly the way they are or up the minimum years out of high school to 2, but then they run afoul of the NBAPA.

I guess the issue here is, is it the NBA's job to do ANYTHING about the NCAA's issues or the NBAPA's issues with the NCAA ... and my guess is the NBA wants to stay out of that as much as possible. Ideally there would be a nice minor league system, but I don't think it's ever going to come close to an ideal system for everyone involved.

exactly... and it is because the players won't agree to MORE cost controlled years... the one and done was a compromise to reduce risk along with the rookie scale.

LA4life24/8
03-05-2018, 10:59 AM
Should let guys go straight to pros outta high school. You can go fight for your country at 18 but you can't play professional sports? Fhuckin crazy.

But make the rookie contract straight outta high school like league minimum or possibly cheaper. But only for 2 or 3 years and then hit restricted free agency. But if you come outta college even 1 year rookie contract starts higher. This way nba teams arent paying millions to a guy who doesn't develop. Ncaa still profit off a 1 year guy but the option is there at least

IndyRealist
03-05-2018, 11:05 AM
who gives a **** what you want... you are the one with the agenda asking for something that doesn't exist.

And it isn't the NBA that wouldn't agree with your system it is the ****ing players

THE PLAYERS DON'T CARE. Why would they? Every voting member of the NBAPA is already past the point where this would affect them. It's why rookie scale contracts were implemented, because they got something in return at the bargaining table and it didn't affect a single voter. It's the reason RFA is still around. Every year you hear about rookie contract guys complaining about how RFA amounts to "slavery", YET IT NEVER GETS VOTED DOWN. Every member of the NBAPA already has a contract they're stuck with, so they have no incentive to remove RFA for future players at the cost of something they all want in the CBA. It's the same with rookie scale contracts, and it's the same with a minor league.

Vinylman
03-05-2018, 11:59 AM
THE PLAYERS DON'T CARE. Why would they? Every voting member of the NBAPA is already past the point where this would affect them. It's why rookie scale contracts were implemented, because they got something in return at the bargaining table and it didn't affect a single voter. It's the reason RFA is still around. Every year you hear about rookie contract guys complaining about how RFA amounts to "slavery", YET IT NEVER GETS VOTED DOWN. Every member of the NBAPA already has a contract they're stuck with, so they have no incentive to remove RFA for future players at the cost of something they all want in the CBA. It's the same with rookie scale contracts, and it's the same with a minor league.

You are flat out wrong... the players do care...

The league wants even more restrictions on rookies and HS yet the players would only agree to the scale and the one and done last go around...

The league has said time and time again that they want at least 2 years removed from high school and an even lower rookie scale... the players objected to it.

What is funny is that you can't even see that what the players objected to is in essence what you want to turn the G league into... more team control/lower wages

the league will always agree to do anything that pays players less at a younger age...

The argument of a minor league system vs a one and done policy is not in the interest of the league unless the scale was significantly lower which the players won't agree to and haven't in the past... not to mention it is more expensive for the league to force a minor league affiliate on all teams

you do understand that the G league players other than the two way players are all signed by the LEAGUE and not teams... right?

KingPosey
03-05-2018, 12:29 PM
Itís not about race, itís about money. They donít care if baseball players go play minor league or even say somehow one went straight to the MLB magically because college baseball typically doesnít make them huge
Money.

Vinylman
03-05-2018, 01:01 PM
I find it funny that the NCAA did just fine when players could go straight from HS to the NBA yet now that people want it again for the players that somehow the NCAA is all of a sudden trying to stop it because of the money...

The Logic is mind boggling

Scoots
03-05-2018, 01:33 PM
Should let guys go straight to pros outta high school. You can go fight for your country at 18 but you can't play professional sports? Fhuckin crazy.

But make the rookie contract straight outta high school like league minimum or possibly cheaper. But only for 2 or 3 years and then hit restricted free agency. But if you come outta college even 1 year rookie contract starts higher. This way nba teams arent paying millions to a guy who doesn't develop. Ncaa still profit off a 1 year guy but the option is there at least

You can play professional sports, just not the NBA.

I think the players would resist a 3 year rookie deal at the minimum, but I agree the teams would love that.

IndyRealist
03-05-2018, 01:34 PM
You are flat out wrong... the players do care...

The league wants even more restrictions on rookies and HS yet the players would only agree to the scale and the one and done last go around...

The league has said time and time again that they want at least 2 years removed from high school and an even lower rookie scale... the players objected to it.

What is funny is that you can't even see that what the players objected to is in essence what you want to turn the G league into... more team control/lower wages

the league will always agree to do anything that pays players less at a younger age...

The argument of a minor league system vs a one and done policy is not in the interest of the league unless the scale was significantly lower which the players won't agree to and haven't in the past... not to mention it is more expensive for the league to force a minor league affiliate on all teams

you do understand that the G league players other than the two way players are all signed by the LEAGUE and not teams... right?
Someone is completely wrong.

"A plan is expected to include the NBA starting relationships with elite teenagers while they are in high school, providing skills to help them develop both on and off the court. It would ultimately open an alternate path to the NBA besides playing in college and a way 18-year-olds could earn a meaningful salary either from NBA teams or as part of an enhanced option in the developmental G League, sources said."

"We are looking at changing the relationship we have with players before they reach the NBA," a high-ranking league official told Windhorst. "This is a complex challenge, and there's still a lot of discussion about how it's going to happen, but we all see the need to step in."
That is from TODAY. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2762745-report-nba-to-build-relationships-with-hs-prospects-g-league-option-discussed

Scoots
03-05-2018, 01:37 PM
THE PLAYERS DON'T CARE. Why would they? Every voting member of the NBAPA is already past the point where this would affect them. It's why rookie scale contracts were implemented, because they got something in return at the bargaining table and it didn't affect a single voter. It's the reason RFA is still around. Every year you hear about rookie contract guys complaining about how RFA amounts to "slavery", YET IT NEVER GETS VOTED DOWN. Every member of the NBAPA already has a contract they're stuck with, so they have no incentive to remove RFA for future players at the cost of something they all want in the CBA. It's the same with rookie scale contracts, and it's the same with a minor league.

Yeah, they don't care as much as they do about themselves, but if they didn't care at all they wouldn't keep talking about it.

Scoots
03-05-2018, 01:44 PM
I find it funny that the NCAA did just fine when players could go straight from HS to the NBA yet now that people want it again for the players that somehow the NCAA is all of a sudden trying to stop it because of the money...

The Logic is mind boggling

Well ... I think this started because the NCAA is not doing fine and hasn't ever really done "fine" it's just that now it's a news story so players and coaches and talking heads are talking about side stepping the NCAA corruption (like it had nothing to do with the players at all).

The story hasn't really changed ... the NCAA would have to be replaced by something similar that would like fail in a similar manner, that's the part most people don't really accept.

Scoots
03-05-2018, 01:53 PM
"A plan is expected to include the NBA starting relationships with elite teenagers while they are in high school, providing skills to help them develop both on and off the court. It would ultimately open an alternate path to the NBA besides playing in college and a way 18-year-olds could earn a meaningful salary either from NBA teams or as part of an enhanced option in the developmental G League, sources said."

"We are looking at changing the relationship we have with players before they reach the NBA," a high-ranking league official told Windhorst. "This is a complex challenge, and there's still a lot of discussion about how it's going to happen, but we all see the need to step in."

Those are interesting, but they are not about teams working with HS players but the league. It's essentially the same as it is now except the NBA puts themselves in the place of the NCAA ... but it carefully avoids talking about how they will keep it from getting corrupted, and it still isn't high school players playing for teams in the NBA, just "a relationship" and a chance to be in the g-league in some fashion. I still think the players will resist kids from being paid on small deals that lock them in to team control.

IndyRealist
03-05-2018, 02:04 PM
Those are interesting, but they are not about teams working with HS players but the league. It's essentially the same as it is now except the NBA puts themselves in the place of the NCAA ... but it carefully avoids talking about how they will keep it from getting corrupted, and it still isn't high school players playing for teams in the NBA, just "a relationship" and a chance to be in the g-league in some fashion. I still think the players will resist kids from being paid on small deals that lock them in to team control.

This is 100% a plan to cut out the NCAA and one and done. There isn't an issue of "corruption" because they will no longer be amateur athletes being exploited for free. The NBA has been moving toward a full minor league for a while now, which has been my point all along, which some people have been insisting isn't happening.

Scoots
03-05-2018, 05:48 PM
This is 100% a plan to cut out the NCAA and one and done. There isn't an issue of "corruption" because they will no longer be amateur athletes being exploited for free. The NBA has been moving toward a full minor league for a while now, which has been my point all along, which some people have been insisting isn't happening.

The league has absolutely been trying to get the entire NBA to have g-league teams.

I still don't know how the NBA as a league solves the issue, but they don't know how they might do it yet either. They have just decided to think about it.

Silver said they would discuss it this offseason and may put in some reforms, but he also said more sweeping reforms would have to wait for the next CBA.

AllBall
03-05-2018, 08:57 PM
Sorry Scoots, and everyone else I haven't responded to from earlier in this thread. But I just had to add that I'm loving what I'm seeing being reported here:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22615784/nba-making-plans-get-involved-high-school-level-once-again-espn

If Adam Silver ends up pulling this off, holy ****! I mean, if it turns out being a successful solution, I'll crown him the greatest commissioner of all time.

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 07:49 AM
Someone is completely wrong.


That is from TODAY. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2762745-report-nba-to-build-relationships-with-hs-prospects-g-league-option-discussed

Talk is talk... nothing you posted contradicts my point...

you truly are a funny dude... you have changed your argument in this thread at least 3 different times...

The league will do what is best for the league... the actions being discussed are nothing more than raising G League salaries for 18 year olds... of course you know that HS players can currently go straight to the G League since you are so well versed...

Nothing significant changes until it is agreed to in a new CBA... the minor tweaks (ie g league salaries) could have happened a long time ago... Lets see the union leadership just give more away to unproven talent at the expense of veterans... like I said... good luck

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 07:55 AM
The league has absolutely been trying to get the entire NBA to have g-league teams.

I still don't know how the NBA as a league solves the issue, but they don't know how they might do it yet either. They have just decided to think about it.

Silver said they would discuss it this offseason and may put in some reforms, but he also said more sweeping reforms would have to wait for the next CBA.

Silver is an expert at diffusing situations... he knows the whole storm over the FBI investigation will fade into the background within weeks (post tourney) and while minor tweaks might happen nothing significant is going to happen without the players approval... it isn't a big deal for the league to raise g league salaries if they fund it. Getting teams to do that is a whole other challenge.

IndyRealist
03-06-2018, 09:20 AM
Talk is talk... nothing you posted contradicts my point...

you truly are a funny dude... you have changed your argument in this thread at least 3 different times...

The league will do what is best for the league... the actions being discussed are nothing more than raising G League salaries for 18 year olds... of course you know that HS players can currently go straight to the G League since you are so well versed...

Nothing significant changes until it is agreed to in a new CBA... the minor tweaks (ie g league salaries) could have happened a long time ago... Lets see the union leadership just give more away to unproven talent at the expense of veterans... like I said... good luck

My point never changed. You just weren't comprehending it. I have no control over your reading skills.

One and done is going away, not being expanded to multiple years. The NBA is getting involved earlier, providing guidance and training, and neither the league nor the players oppose it.

Literally everything you said was wrong.

Scoots
03-06-2018, 10:22 AM
One and done is going away, not being expanded to multiple years. The NBA is getting involved earlier, providing guidance and training, and neither the league nor the players oppose it.

But that's all just talk right now right? There is nothing happening or in the works other than talk right now as far as I can tell.

AllBall
03-06-2018, 11:01 AM
Can someone clarify something for me here, because I've been googling this and can't find anything written anywhere of the Players Union's reach into the G-League. :confused: Does the Union have a say for a player who is not technically in the NBA? Isn't the G-League a separate leauge? I would assume for players who are on two-way or actual NBA contracts that get sent down the G-League the Union applies, but I'm not sure how it works for unsigned players.

IndyRealist
03-06-2018, 11:13 AM
Can someone clarify something for me here, because I've been googling this and can't find anything written anywhere of the Players Union's reach into the G-League. :confused: Does the Union have a say for a player who is not technically in the NBA? Isn't the G-League a separate leauge? I would assume for players who are on two-way or actual NBA contracts that get sent down the G-League the Union applies, but I'm not sure how it works for unsigned players.

I do not believe strictly G League players are in the NBAPA. It's why the NBAPA hasn't had much say in shaping the G League, and they don't have to abide by any of the strictures of the CBA.

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 11:34 AM
But that's all just talk right now right? There is nothing happening or in the works other than talk right now as far as I can tell.

exactly... what better response to a volatile situation is there than "we are studying the issue and plan on making changes"

Again... the league will do what is best for them and if the players want to fight to let 18 year olds into the draft they are going to either give up control or money for additional years

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 11:37 AM
My point never changed. You just weren't comprehending it. I have no control over your reading skills.

One and done is going away, not being expanded to multiple years. The NBA is getting involved earlier, providing guidance and training, and neither the league nor the players oppose it.

Literally everything you said was wrong.

wrong... they aren't doing anything at this point and if you think players are going straight from HS into the NBA draft you have lost your ****ing mind

Silver is relying on sheep like you to spread the disinformation...

I actually am enjoying this

warfelg
03-06-2018, 11:47 AM
wrong... they aren't doing anything at this point and if you think players are going straight from HS into the NBA draft you have lost your ****ing mind

Silver is relying on sheep like you to spread the disinformation...

I actually am enjoying this

What Silver really wants to do is make people think heís going to change things, not change it, and blame everyone else so he comes out looking like the good guy. Page right out of Sterns playbook, Silver is just more charismatic about it.

IndyRealist
03-06-2018, 11:50 AM
wrong... they aren't doing anything at this point and if you think players are going straight from HS into the NBA draft you have lost your ****ing mind

Silver is relying on sheep like you to spread the disinformation...

I actually am enjoying this

You notice it's never well informed people who call other people sheep? Well informed people argue with facts and cite sources, not conspiracies. Silver's spreading "disinformation" lol.

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams, man!

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 12:00 PM
What Silver really wants to do is make people think heís going to change things, not change it, and blame everyone else so he comes out looking like the good guy. Page right out of Sterns playbook, Silver is just more charismatic about it.

yep... I have a lot of respect for him as a businessman ...

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 12:01 PM
You notice it's never well informed people who call other people sheep? Well informed people argue with facts and cite sources, not conspiracies. Silver's spreading "disinformation" lol.

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams, man!

yep... the sheep mischaracterize what people like Silver say all the time... you don't have the facts on your side... as usual

AllBall
03-06-2018, 12:37 PM
You notice it's never well informed people who call other people sheep? Well informed people argue with facts and cite sources, not conspiracies. Silver's spreading "disinformation" lol.

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams, man!

Yeah, PSD posters are becoming more and more jaded each day. lol

I don't have that negative impression of Silver at all. What's being reported is quite encouraging that the existing farm system can be improved and pay brought to the level to be competitive with the foreign leagues.

IndyRealist
03-06-2018, 12:46 PM
yep... the sheep mischaracterize what people like Silver say all the time... you don't have the facts on your side... as usual
This may be helpful for you.
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-false-flag-delusion/

IndyRealist
03-06-2018, 12:53 PM
We will bump this thread in 8 months and see what has changed...

of course despite your protesting nothing has changed at this point but pliable sheep like you are eating up the rhetoric...

Yeah, it's almost like you don't change the system in the middle of the season, or something. Obviously "disinformation".

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 12:54 PM
This may be helpful for you.
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-false-flag-delusion/

We will bump this thread in 8 months and see what has changed...

of course despite your protesting nothing has changed at this point but pliable sheep like you are eating up the rhetoric...

Scoots
03-06-2018, 12:59 PM
I like Silver, he's doing a good job, but there is a pattern of him saying "we're looking into" and "we're thinking about" on a bunch of different things and the "changes" that are later made are mostly hollow. I have no issue with that at all, but I understand it's PR until it's fact.

I still don't see anything that has high school players going directly to being under contract to NBA teams.

LA4life24/8
03-06-2018, 01:09 PM
You can play professional sports, just not the NBA.

I think the players would resist a 3 year rookie deal at the minimum, but I agree the teams would love that.
Probably but it beats not getting paid in college for a couple years.

Maybe a 1 year league minimum? Or 2? But then their pay scale goes up quite a bit?

Or just say f it and allow high school guys to the nba via gleague. They can be called up after a certain amount of time or they are 2 way player mandatory for the 1st year only and then can move to the league full time after their first year? Maybe it doesn't count as their rookie year until the first full year so they have a chance at rookie of the year award etc?

But if you can play other professional sports why not basketball? Doesnt make any sense. You can go into the work force and flip burgers but you can't take your talents to a professional league? It's just silly. The owners were tired of paying dudes who didn't pan out and wasting draft picks. It's bs. They are just tryna cover their arse.

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 01:23 PM
I like Silver, he's doing a good job, but there is a pattern of him saying "we're looking into" and "we're thinking about" on a bunch of different things and the "changes" that are later made are mostly hollow. I have no issue with that at all, but I understand it's PR until it's fact.

I still don't see anything that has high school players going directly to being under contract to NBA teams.

Indy is convinced it is happening

warfelg
03-06-2018, 01:24 PM
Itís something that needs to happen at the NCAA level not NBA.

Vinylman
03-06-2018, 01:31 PM
Probably but it beats not getting paid in college for a couple years.

Maybe a 1 year league minimum? Or 2? But then their pay scale goes up quite a bit?

Or just say f it and allow high school guys to the nba via gleague. They can be called up after a certain amount of time or they are 2 way player mandatory for the 1st year only and then can move to the league full time after their first year? Maybe it doesn't count as their rookie year until the first full year so they have a chance at rookie of the year award etc?

But if you can play other professional sports why not basketball? Doesnt make any sense. You can go into the work force and flip burgers but you can't take your talents to a professional league? It's just silly. The owners were tired of paying dudes who didn't pan out and wasting draft picks. It's bs. They are just tryna cover their arse.

huh? football doesn't allow it...

also... there are plenty of professional basketball leagues you can play in post HS including the G League

Chronz
03-06-2018, 02:21 PM
You notice it's never well informed people who call other people sheep? Well informed people argue with facts and cite sources, not conspiracies. Silver's spreading "disinformation" lol.

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams, man!

Wait. Pm me what you know about jet fuel

AllBall
03-06-2018, 02:54 PM
I like Silver, he's doing a good job, but there is a pattern of him saying "we're looking into" and "we're thinking about" on a bunch of different things and the "changes" that are later made are mostly hollow. I have no issue with that at all, but I understand it's PR until it's fact.

I still don't see anything that has high school players going directly to being under contract to NBA teams.

I mean, Silver said they were looking at shortening the pre-season, removing back to backs, extending the break, etc....and he did all that. They said they were looking at deterring tanking, they changed the rules. What else did Silver state that it was being looked at that did not get addressed? I'm asking sincerely, my memory may be getting the better of me here.


Itís something that needs to happen at the NCAA level not NBA.

The NCAA had their chance. The failed. They G-League has only been around since 2001. This would be a great step in its evolution.

Scoots
03-06-2018, 04:08 PM
Probably but it beats not getting paid in college for a couple years.

2 years of free college education while displaying and developing your game to maybe get drafted high and get a multi-million dollar a year multi-year contract ... or play in the g-league for $75k? There are some advantages to going to college.


Maybe a 1 year league minimum? Or 2? But then their pay scale goes up quite a bit?

Or just say f it and allow high school guys to the nba via gleague. They can be called up after a certain amount of time or they are 2 way player mandatory for the 1st year only and then can move to the league full time after their first year? Maybe it doesn't count as their rookie year until the first full year so they have a chance at rookie of the year award etc?

To me the part where this becomes a problem is if a team drafts a player into their g-league team as a two-way player what does their pay jump up to when they go to the NBA? Is it a rookie minimum deal? In which case it would definitely be better for blue chip prospects to go to college because they will likely make more money in their first pro year than they would in 1 year in the g-league and 2 in the NBA.

If the g-league is bringing in and paying players directly without any influence from the teams and then the players are drafted out of the g-league after a year or two then that could work ... except then you have the huge task of trying to police team employees who work in the g-league from influencing players, and you have NBA team employees tasked with maximizing how the kids look for the draft. Why not sand bag the best players so your team can draft them because nobody else has seen what your team has seen?

NBA teams don't want to draft players directly from high school, and the G-League ideas I've seen look to me like they would be a similar level of managerial nightmare to what the NCAA is trying to do.

Scoots
03-06-2018, 10:59 PM
I agree with Steve Kerr on allowing undrafted players to go back to school and play. That's good for everyone except the agents. The NBA gets another shot at the players, the college gets more than 1 year from a player, and the player gets more free education and a chance to improve enough to get drafted.

warfelg
03-06-2018, 11:37 PM
I agree with Steve Kerr on allowing undrafted players to go back to school and play. That's good for everyone except the agents. The NBA gets another shot at the players, the college gets more than 1 year from a player, and the player gets more free education and a chance to improve enough to get drafted.

The requirement should be then donít hire an agent.

Scoots
03-07-2018, 12:07 AM
The requirement should be then donít hire an agent.

Or if they do hire an agent it should be a limited contract that meets NCAA (or whatever replaces it) requirements.

warfelg
03-07-2018, 08:51 AM
Or if they do hire an agent it should be a limited contract that meets NCAA (or whatever replaces it) requirements.

Thatís NCAA rules not NBA though. Thatís why some guys in the NBA test the water without an agent. MLB guys still in HS tend to not hire an agent unless they know they will be a high pick for the same reason.

Thatís something I donít see the NCAA changing this any time soon.

AllBall
03-07-2018, 10:20 AM
2 years of free college education while displaying and developing your game to maybe get drafted high and get a multi-million dollar a year multi-year contract ... or play in the g-league for $75k? There are some advantages to going to college.

G-League can offer a tuition program for continuing education to players. Bam. Done. Next problem?

Scoots
03-07-2018, 10:33 AM
G-League can offer a tuition program for continuing education to players. Bam. Done. Next problem?

Continuing education is not the same as college. I didn't say it was a problem I said there were advantages to going to college.

Scoots
03-07-2018, 10:34 AM
Thatís NCAA rules not NBA though. Thatís why some guys in the NBA test the water without an agent. MLB guys still in HS tend to not hire an agent unless they know they will be a high pick for the same reason.

Thatís something I donít see the NCAA changing this any time soon.

Yes, I did say the NCAA (or whatever replaces it) would have to allow it. The thing is that an agent plays a significant role in the pre-draft process and a player without an agent is setting themselves up to fail.

warfelg
03-07-2018, 11:44 AM
Ok? Iím all for having college players paid. 100% against letting them get agents then still be able to go back to NCAA (itís not getting replaced). Thereís a good reason why they donít let that happen and itís because of the benefits factor.

So you get an agent, got to a training academy, have an apartment paid for, meals, travel, workouts all paid for; and they can choose to go back? Meanwhile the guy that didnít entertain the thought has to go to classes, get a summer job, doesnít have the time to nonstop work on his craft? Your saying thatís ok?

I think thatís a little silly. If you want to test the waters you shouldnít get to have an agent to do all that for you.

The best of both worlds would be to localize the combines to 8 regions (NYC, Wash, Miami, Chicago, Dallas, LA, Seattle, OKC); make it soon after the college seasons; no agents allowed. Making it quick after the season and having multiple would let more players take part and get a quicker feedback on what teams think of their draft prospects. Because thatís the issue here. If you want to let guys be able to go back they canít get benefits, and they need to hear back on what teams think.

AllBall
03-07-2018, 11:49 AM
Continuing education is not the same as college. I didn't say it was a problem I said there were advantages to going to college.

Fine. College Tuition. Anything else?

The point I'm getting it is that these aren't impossible things to address and they don't require some sort of visionary mind blowing creativity.

G-League doesn't work out, hey, you still got your G-League tuition benefit you can use at anytime to go to college.

warfelg
03-07-2018, 12:45 PM
Fine. College Tuition. Anything else?

The point I'm getting it is that these aren't impossible things to address and they don't require some sort of visionary mind blowing creativity.

G-League doesn't work out, hey, you still got your G-League tuition benefit you can use at anytime to go to college.

Just like the GI benefits.

Vinylman
03-07-2018, 02:49 PM
Fine. College Tuition. Anything else?

The point I'm getting it is that these aren't impossible things to address and they don't require some sort of visionary mind blowing creativity.

G-League doesn't work out, hey, you still got your G-League tuition benefit you can use at anytime to go to college.

where do you propose the money comes from for this? You understand as currently constructed the G League is a loser... and that is with paying ridiculously low salaries

AllBall
03-07-2018, 03:20 PM
where do you propose the money comes from for this? You understand as currently constructed the G League is a loser... and that is with paying ridiculously low salaries

Oh, please stop it. Everyone here wants to act like they're some sort of labor attorney or master CPA where any proposal in a post must be laid out in meticulous detail for their review and approval. Finding a source to fund this is not impossible. Just because there is a challenge does not make it impossible for the NBA to do this. It's in the plans to change the G-league structure and also to increase the pay. (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22615784/nba-making-plans-get-involved-high-school-level-once-again-espn) This is what this whole damn discussion is about. :rolleyes:

Shammyguy3
03-07-2018, 03:35 PM
I think peoplw forget that you can go to college for a degree if you need or want to after your professional basketball career is over. Make the money while your physically able to do. Go to school later if you so choose where you will be able to afford it anyway.

Vinylman
03-07-2018, 04:09 PM
Oh, please stop it. Everyone here wants to act like they're some sort of labor attorney or master CPA where any proposal in a post must be laid out in meticulous detail for their review and approval. Finding a source to fund this is not impossible. Just because there is a challenge does not make it impossible for the NBA to do this. It's in the plans to change the G-league structure and also to increase the pay. (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22615784/nba-making-plans-get-involved-high-school-level-once-again-espn) This is what this whole damn discussion is about. :rolleyes:

sigh...

You obviously don't understand how it has to get paid for which was my point... it will have to come out of existing CBA money which it doesn't right now which means... guess what

THE PLAYERS WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO IT IN THE NEXT CBA

good luck with that

AllBall
03-07-2018, 04:50 PM
sigh...

You obviously don't understand how it has to get paid for which was my point... it will have to come out of existing CBA money which it doesn't right now which means... guess what

THE PLAYERS WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO IT IN THE NEXT CBA

good luck with that

Already confirmed in this thread, the CBA does not apply to the G-League and neither does the Player's Union. So no, no luck needed, Silver has free reign to manipulate the farm system as he sees fit.

Vinylman
03-08-2018, 08:14 AM
Already confirmed in this thread, the CBA does not apply to the G-League and neither does the Player's Union. So no, no luck needed, Silver has free reign to manipulate the farm system as he sees fit.

this is your response?

Ok dude... everyone knows the current situation including me since I have been posting about since the beginning of the thread...

why don't you try and explain where all this money is going to come from if not from general NBA revenues.

Are they all of a sudden going to pack arenas with fans? Are they going to get some lucrative TV deal?

I don't really expect much of a response... just more bobbing and weaving from you.

AllBall
03-08-2018, 08:40 AM
this is your response?

Ok dude... everyone knows the current situation including me since I have been posting about since the beginning of the thread...

why don't you try and explain where all this money is going to come from if not from general NBA revenues.

Are they all of a sudden going to pack arenas with fans? Are they going to get some lucrative TV deal?

I don't really expect much of a response... just more bobbing and weaving from you.

I already responded to that in this thread. Go back and read.

warfelg
03-08-2018, 08:53 AM
Already confirmed in this thread, the CBA does not apply to the G-League and neither does the Player's Union. So no, no luck needed, Silver has free reign to manipulate the farm system as he sees fit.

Yup. And if these guys like LeBron are serious about protecting or helping these young kids they would find a way to pull the G-League into the protection of the NBPA. Until then Silver and the NBA can screw with the G-League any way they want.

IMO both sides will always end up doing the same thing and pay lip service to help the young guys or protect them with a better system; but in the end they won't do anything because that means less money for the stars and more responsibility for the NBA.

Vinylman
03-08-2018, 09:26 AM
I already responded to that in this thread. Go back and read.

thanks...

cluelessness confirmed

AllBall
03-08-2018, 01:12 PM
thanks...

cluelessness confirmed

Wow. 5 star post. Would read again. Thanks for your Doctorate Level Insight. Nominating it for Nobel Prize in Economics. Revolutionary. Let's hire you as head of the IMF.

It's not rocket science. The same way every other leauge gets funded. Why would this require a new form of funding? The G-League is not without capital and the change from 20K to 75K is not large enough to bankrupt it.

valade16
03-08-2018, 01:17 PM
I think peoplw forget that you can go to college for a degree if you need or want to after your professional basketball career is over. Make the money while your physically able to do. Go to school later if you so choose where you will be able to afford it anyway.

People act like this is the one shot for these players to go to college. They can always just go to college after their playing career is over.

Vinylman
03-09-2018, 08:16 AM
Wow. 5 star post. Would read again. Thanks for your Doctorate Level Insight. Nominating it for Nobel Prize in Economics. Revolutionary. Let's hire you as head of the IMF.

It's not rocket science. The same way every other leauge gets funded. Why would this require a new form of funding? The G-League is not without capital and the change from 20K to 75K is not large enough to bankrupt it.

confirming cluelessness one post at a time

warfelg
03-09-2018, 09:16 AM
People act like this is the one shot for these players to go to college. They can always just go to college after their playing career is over.

What percent actually go back though? I think that would be an interesting study to do and see if the NBA/G-League needs to somehow incentive a degree.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 09:36 AM
People act like this is the one shot for these players to go to college. They can always just go to college after their playing career is over.

Going to college at 18 is very different than going at 36. You can't get that back. It has value, but it's not monetary.

I don't really care what the NCAA and NBA and colleges do, but I don't think it's going to be any kind of simple solution. I suspect the NBAPA/agents and the NBA will never totally agree on what is "best" just as I suspect the NCAA will never be able to 100% police any policy they come up with. It's just a tempest in a tea pot right now.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 09:37 AM
confirming cluelessness one post at a time

Well do the simple math.

12 guys per G-League team with 2 on 2-way contracts, so that's 10 players to pay more.

So it's $550,000 per team to add.

26 teams (as of right now) so that's $14.3 mil to add to their budget.

I think that's actually doable.

I'll take one team that I know and that's the Delaware 87ers (the 76ers G-L team). They rent from University of Delaware to use their arena. They pay a good amount (IIRC about $250k a year) to use the arena for home games. So step number one for them cutting costs to pay players more would be to use one of the 3 arenas that the 76ers ownership has either a lease on or own. So that would mean playing at the 76ers training center, WFC, or Prudential Center (Josh Harris also owns the NJDevils of the NHL). They have a bunch of smaller local sponsors. In new negotiations, make some bigger partners pay for sponsorship around the G-League team. How about not having special uniforms for "Green Night", Sponge Bob Night, Star Wars Night, and about 5-6 other special nights.

The G-League is sponsored by Gatorade, you don't think they could find more partners at a league wide level? I think they could get someone like Southwest to help and be a partner for travel. Right now they air games on Twitter live. Couldn't they get a better deal to show the games? Increase League Pass price like $30 and sling that to G-League; and in exchange put every G-League game on there.

There are so many little ways to increase revenue.

Vinylman
03-09-2018, 10:13 AM
Well do the simple math.

12 guys per G-League team with 2 on 2-way contracts, so that's 10 players to pay more.

So it's $550,000 per team to add.

26 teams (as of right now) so that's $14.3 mil to add to their budget.

I think that's actually doable.

I'll take one team that I know and that's the Delaware 87ers (the 76ers G-L team). They rent from University of Delaware to use their arena. They pay a good amount (IIRC about $250k a year) to use the arena for home games. So step number one for them cutting costs to pay players more would be to use one of the 3 arenas that the 76ers ownership has either a lease on or own. So that would mean playing at the 76ers training center, WFC, or Prudential Center (Josh Harris also owns the NJDevils of the NHL). They have a bunch of smaller local sponsors. In new negotiations, make some bigger partners pay for sponsorship around the G-League team. How about not having special uniforms for "Green Night", Sponge Bob Night, Star Wars Night, and about 5-6 other special nights.

The G-League is sponsored by Gatorade, you don't think they could find more partners at a league wide level? I think they could get someone like Southwest to help and be a partner for travel. Right now they air games on Twitter live. Couldn't they get a better deal to show the games? Increase League Pass price like $30 and sling that to G-League; and in exchange put every G-League game on there.

There are so many little ways to increase revenue.

Good post except you are ignoring the elephant in the room

What does the NBA get for tripling the pay of G League players?

What does the player lose in terms of rookie scale or years of control?

If you are simply saying that the G League raise their salaries to $75k and there is no linkage to the NBA or players association and that they can make enough to cover $600k more per team ... which is really probably $1 million when you factor in taxes/increased insurance, etc.. there is no way they can draw enough interest in those other ways to cover that cost.

You know how we know the above... because the CBA and Dleague never made a ****ing dime... yet now we are to expect that all these marketing/promotional opportunities are suppose to happen?

Like I have posted many times... if you want to develop a minor league system for the NBA it is going to require investment by the league which means the revenue has to come from "general revenue" which means it will have to be approved by the players via the CBA which they will agree to if it is paid out of the rookie scale and modified years of control... which begs the question... is that a better system for the elite young players? because they are the only ones really losing out at this point.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 10:15 AM
Good post except you are ignoring the elephant in the room

What does the NBA get for tripling the pay of G League players?


Better replacement players.

valade16
03-09-2018, 11:49 AM
What percent actually go back though? I think that would be an interesting study to do and see if the NBA/G-League needs to somehow incentive a degree.

Incentivize it or educate players and create awareness on that possibility when they hang up their sneakers.


Going to college at 18 is very different than going at 36. You can't get that back. It has value, but it's not monetary.

I don't really care what the NCAA and NBA and colleges do, but I don't think it's going to be any kind of simple solution. I suspect the NBAPA/agents and the NBA will never totally agree on what is "best" just as I suspect the NCAA will never be able to 100% police any policy they come up with. It's just a tempest in a tea pot right now.

That depends, it has value to some and quite literally takes value from others. LeBron James would have lost how many millions by having to go to college for a year? And that's just from his rookie salary, if we include the later dates at which he could have signed max contracts, his year earlier retirement, and all the compounding interest he could have been making off those millions, it's fair to say that LeBron would have lost tens of millions of dollars by having to go to school.

Not only that, the idea that college at 18 has some non-monetary value is contradictory to the NCAA's stated reason for denying them pay at college: because they are already being monetarily compensated in the form of scholarships.

Saying that we should force players to go to college because of the non-monetary value they'll get by going to college is a pretty hollow argument. Plenty of people actually get negative value out of going to college. Forcing someone to go to college because you believe it's a good experience isn't very compelling to me.

flips333
03-09-2018, 11:58 AM
People act like this is the one shot for these players to go to college. They can always just go to college after their playing career is over.

Not only that but playing a D1 high money sport (football and basketball) require so much time that actually getting a good education is going to be really difficult for everyone except the most exceptional students. Are we really expecting 18 year olds to do this: http://www.businessinsider.com/college-student-athletes-spend-40-hours-a-week-practicing-2015-1

And then spend enough time on academics to do well? I expect at least 3 hours a week of work per credit hour. That's what I expect of my B- C+ students. So bare minimum to not embarrass yourself. 15 credits*3 = 45 + 40 hours on sports. That is an 85 hour work week for relatively **** grades. That's insane. D1 sports are ****ing stupid from an academic perspective. Let me repeat that. D1 sports are ****ing stupid from an academic perspective. The only way any of it would make any sense is to play all D1 sports in the summer.

If you can be a professional athlete be a professional athlete and when your knees give out... come to college.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 11:58 AM
Incentivize it or educate players and create awareness on that possibility when they hang up their sneakers.


Both. Have a pipeline program for players and work if the finish their degree, and if not provide and ďNBAUĒ of classes they can take on finance.

AllBall
03-09-2018, 11:59 AM
Going to college at 18 is very different than going at 36. You can't get that back. It has value, but it's not monetary.

Umm....so a player is going to go straight from HS at 18 to the G-leauge stay there for 17 years, decide it hasn't worked out and go to college at 35. WTF scenario is this? lol Even if the player did 4 years there he would be 22 by the time he came out of the G-League.

flips333
03-09-2018, 12:02 PM
Good post except you are ignoring the elephant in the room

What does the NBA get for tripling the pay of G League players?

What does the player lose in terms of rookie scale or years of control?

If you are simply saying that the G League raise their salaries to $75k and there is no linkage to the NBA or players association and that they can make enough to cover $600k more per team ... which is really probably $1 million when you factor in taxes/increased insurance, etc.. there is no way they can draw enough interest in those other ways to cover that cost.

You know how we know the above... because the CBA and Dleague never made a ****ing dime... yet now we are to expect that all these marketing/promotional opportunities are suppose to happen?

Like I have posted many times... if you want to develop a minor league system for the NBA it is going to require investment by the league which means the revenue has to come from "general revenue" which means it will have to be approved by the players via the CBA which they will agree to if it is paid out of the rookie scale and modified years of control... which begs the question... is that a better system for the elite young players? because they are the only ones really losing out at this point.

**** the NBA. The ****ing NCAA shouldn't subsidize the NBA. **** them.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 12:21 PM
Incentivize it or educate players and create awareness on that possibility when they hang up their sneakers.



That depends, it has value to some and quite literally takes value from others. LeBron James would have lost how many millions by having to go to college for a year? And that's just from his rookie salary, if we include the later dates at which he could have signed max contracts, his year earlier retirement, and all the compounding interest he could have been making off those millions, it's fair to say that LeBron would have lost tens of millions of dollars by having to go to school.

Not only that, the idea that college at 18 has some non-monetary value is contradictory to the NCAA's stated reason for denying them pay at college: because they are already being monetarily compensated in the form of scholarships.

Saying that we should force players to go to college because of the non-monetary value they'll get by going to college is a pretty hollow argument. Plenty of people actually get negative value out of going to college. Forcing someone to go to college because you believe it's a good experience isn't very compelling to me.

People REALLY have to stop using the word "force". Force implies a threat of violence. High school athletes are not forced by rule into anything. They want 1 thing and they have hoops to jump through to get there and the discussion is simply what hoops they don't want to have to do.

The current rules have NO requirements that high school players have to attend college at all.

Using LeBron James as a model for anything is a logical fallacy. LeBron is literally a once in a lifetime example and any system put in place is going to effect directly or tangentially near 200000 high school graduate student athletes every year.

The NCAA HEAVILY markets the values of college beyond the scholarships. It's not contradictory it's consonant with their position that the players are getting enough recompense (I think they should get more money).

Scoots
03-09-2018, 12:23 PM
Not only that but playing a D1 high money sport (football and basketball) require so much time that actually getting a good education is going to be really difficult for everyone except the most exceptional students. Are we really expecting 18 year olds to do this: http://www.businessinsider.com/college-student-athletes-spend-40-hours-a-week-practicing-2015-1

And then spend enough time on academics to do well? I expect at least 3 hours a week of work per credit hour. That's what I expect of my B- C+ students. So bare minimum to not embarrass yourself. 15 credits*3 = 45 + 40 hours on sports. That is an 85 hour work week for relatively **** grades. That's insane. D1 sports are ****ing stupid from an academic perspective. Let me repeat that. D1 sports are ****ing stupid from an academic perspective. The only way any of it would make any sense is to play all D1 sports in the summer.

If you can be a professional athlete be a professional athlete and when your knees give out... come to college.

I agree, and that too needs to be reformed. The requirements for athletes should be reduced on both the athletic and academic side.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 12:24 PM
Umm....so a player is going to go straight from HS at 18 to the G-leauge stay there for 17 years, decide it hasn't worked out and go to college at 35. WTF scenario is this? lol Even if the player did 4 years there he would be 22 by the time he came out of the G-League.

He said "at the end of his playing career" ... that would include all of the players who come out of high school since that's what we are talking about, and while not all players make it that long some of them certainly do.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 12:33 PM
So, the proposed solution is (please correct me if I'm wrong):

- The NBA requires every NBA team to buy and finance a g-league team.
- The NBA requires every NBA team to fill the roster with players on two-way contracts.
- Those players are not actually under control of the NBA teams because that would require approval of the NBAPA in the CBA.
- g-league players are given incentivized future college scholarships.

So, my issues from there are:

- How do players end up on certain g-league teams? Are they drafted by the team?
- How much control does the team have of that player? 5 years? (that would be approximately equivalent of the one college year and a 4 year rookie contract)
- How do you determine what their NBA contract will be if they are called up to the NBA?
- Are g-league players capable of re-entering the draft after spending time in the g-league?
- How do you ensure g-league staffs maximize a player publicly and don't just work like scouts for their owner team?

valade16
03-09-2018, 12:37 PM
People REALLY have to stop using the word "force". Force implies a threat of violence. High school athletes are not forced by rule into anything. They want 1 thing and they have hoops to jump through to get there and the discussion is simply what hoops they don't want to have to do.

The current rules have NO requirements that high school players have to attend college at all.

Using LeBron James as a model for anything is a logical fallacy. LeBron is literally a once in a lifetime example and any system put in place is going to effect directly or tangentially near 200000 high school graduate student athletes every year.

The NCAA HEAVILY markets the values of college beyond the scholarships. It's not contradictory it's consonant with their position that the players are getting enough recompense (I think they should get more money).

It is not direct force, but it is a form of forced compliance. The NBA is prohibiting players from going to the NBA until they are a year out of High School. Certainly they aren't forced to go to college to get to the NBA, but they have made it so difficult to go to the NBA and have success through any other model (how many who chose to play overseas for a year have made it in the NBA or got drafted as high as they were projected?), that it is a strong influence tantamount to force.

As for LeBron James, I could change it to quite literally any NBA player that was forced to play in college for a year. KD has lost a sizeable amount of money to his one year. Ditto to anyone who wanted to come out after High School and would have been drafted.

The NCAA attempts to market the value of college beyond scholarships, but their main argument against paying players is they are already getting compensated in the form of a college scholarship. Well they would get compensated more in some cases than the scholarship. Not to mention, nobody is being deprived of a material achievement they can't simply go later and achieve (a college degree).


Denying someone the opportunity to make millions in the NBA as opposed to going to a corrupt college program and receiving no official compensation because there is some magical intangible value to going to college for a year is again, a pretty hollow argument.

valade16
03-09-2018, 12:40 PM
And clouding this entire discussion is every NCAA college program worth their salt is likely paying players, so even the colleges have determined that the players skills deserve monetary compensation (even beyond their scholarships).

If college programs pay players to play basketball, what compelling reason is there to deny those players the opportunity to get paid by the NBA?

warfelg
03-09-2018, 12:48 PM
It is not direct force, but it is a form of forced compliance. The NBA is prohibiting players from going to the NBA until they are a year out of High School. Certainly they aren't forced to go to college to get to the NBA, but they have made it so difficult to go to the NBA and have success through any other model (how many who chose to play overseas for a year have made it in the NBA or got drafted as high as they were projected?), that it is a strong influence tantamount to force.

As for LeBron James, I could change it to quite literally any NBA player that was forced to play in college for a year. KD has lost a sizeable amount of money to his one year. Ditto to anyone who wanted to come out after High School and would have been drafted.

The NCAA attempts to market the value of college beyond scholarships, but their main argument against paying players is they are already getting compensated in the form of a college scholarship. Well they would get compensated more in some cases than the scholarship. Not to mention, nobody is being deprived of a material achievement they can't simply go later and achieve (a college degree).


Denying someone the opportunity to make millions in the NBA as opposed to going to a corrupt college program and receiving no official compensation because there is some magical intangible value to going to college for a year is again, a pretty hollow argument.

I know this isnít the same:
But why not? The 99% of us have to go through training for our jobs. Heck I have my PGA card, 2 teaching certificates, and a masters in coaching; but for my current job I had to go through a month of training and 2 weeks at HQ on more training and a month of training again when I got back.

Should I have been exempt? No.

What is wrong with job requirements?

I see all the time ďif you can go to war at 18....Ē How many people here are military? How much training did you have to do?

If they need to go to the G-League or College for two years who f-img cares. Every other job has a period before you get to actually do it. So what if we make an 18 year old kid have to train at his profession for a bit before working in it.

valade16
03-09-2018, 01:09 PM
I know this isnít the same:
But why not? The 99% of us have to go through training for our jobs. Heck I have my PGA card, 2 teaching certificates, and a masters in coaching; but for my current job I had to go through a month of training and 2 weeks at HQ on more training and a month of training again when I got back.

Should I have been exempt? No.

What is wrong with job requirements?

I see all the time ďif you can go to war at 18....Ē How many people here are military? How much training did you have to do?

If they need to go to the G-League or College for two years who f-img cares. Every other job has a period before you get to actually do it. So what if we make an 18 year old kid have to train at his profession for a bit before working in it.

Well the main argument I'd make is that a year of college (or even a college degree) is not a necessary achievement to excel as a basketball player.

The requirements (such as only people with degrees can apply) for your job is because those with degrees typically perform better than those who do not have degrees and/or they have the requisite knowledge of the subject material to start right away. Your training is to make you better at your job.

A college degree will not help someone succeed in the NBA on the court. The NBA is perfectly free to make whatever job requirements they want to gain entrance into the NBA, but we all know that the requirements in no way actually materially assist the player in their career.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 01:18 PM
Well the main argument I'd make is that a year of college (or even a college degree) is not a necessary achievement to excel as a basketball player.

The requirements (such as only people with degrees can apply) for your job is because those with degrees typically perform better than those who do not have degrees and/or they have the requisite knowledge of the subject material to start right away. Your training is to make you better at your job.

A college degree will not help someone succeed in the NBA on the court. The NBA is perfectly free to make whatever job requirements they want to gain entrance into the NBA, but we all know that the requirements in no way actually materially assist the player in their career.

So wouldnít logically a year or two at the G-League level or College level help them develop better and be better at their job?

valade16
03-09-2018, 01:29 PM
So wouldnít logically a year or two at the G-League level or College level help them develop better and be better at their job?

If that were the case, NBA teams wouldn't be drafting these players so high without those prerequisites. So yes a year or two at the G-League or College level could help them develop to be better at their job, but they would not be able to not do their job if they did not go there.

Contrast that to an accountant, or a doctor, or a lawyer. Outside of a few savants, you simply could not do those jobs without the required credentials and training. You can be an NBA caliber player with exactly 0 experience in both the G-League or NCAA.

LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett all went to the NBA straight from High School and they are a whose who list of the greatest players of their generations.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 01:47 PM
If that were the case, NBA teams wouldn't be drafting these players so high without those prerequisites. So yes a year or two at the G-League or College level could help them develop to be better at their job, but they would not be able to not do their job if they did not go there.

Contrast that to an accountant, or a doctor, or a lawyer. Outside of a few savants, you simply could not do those jobs without the required credentials and training. You can be an NBA caliber player with exactly 0 experience in both the G-League or NCAA.

LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett all went to the NBA straight from High School and they are a whose who list of the greatest players of their generations.

And on the flip side of that last point I give you Darius Miles, Andray Blatche, Eddy Curry, Robert Swift, Jonathan Bender, Kwame Brown.

But basically what I'm saying comes down to is recently we've seen guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Kyle Kuzma, Donovan Mitchell (and there's a few of these every year) that have "unexpected" good rookie years. I always counter that they aren't 'unexpected' but rather people saw them staying longer in college was a sign of "not good". In reality they got to stay longer, work on their craft, and become better players.

If the Parker/Embiid/Wiggins trio had to stay another year at school (barring health of course) there's a chance Wiggins goes lower outside of 3. I'm looking at that draft now. Wanna take a guess of where guys that had training like Jusuf Nurkic, Rodney Hood, Clint Capela, Dario Saric, Jordan Clarkson went in the draft? Out of that group you got 4 starers, 1 6th man. Let's look at the 1 and dones in that draft:
Wiggins - Certainly not living up to the #1 pick status and a big disappointment.
Parker - Oft injured role player.
Embiid - Oft injured star player.
Aaron Gordon - He's a mixed bag kinda like Wiggins.
Randle - Ok player but you expect more out of the 7th pick than a bench player.
Noah Vonleh - He's on his like 3rd team.

Having them stay an extra year isn't going to 'hurt' them and it isn't some right. In fact it would do just the opposite. It would help them be better players. It would help them if they don't make it. It would help the NBA have a better product.

Face it. This current generation of stars isn't going to be around forever. LeBron, KD guys like that....they're closer to the end than the beginning. And the young crop of up coming stars? There isn't as many and they aren't as good.

Having them stay isn't going to help them. More training never hurt anyone.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:02 PM
I know this isnít the same:
But why not? The 99% of us have to go through training for our jobs. Heck I have my PGA card, 2 teaching certificates, and a masters in coaching; but for my current job I had to go through a month of training and 2 weeks at HQ on more training and a month of training again when I got back.

Should I have been exempt? No.

What is wrong with job requirements?

I see all the time ďif you can go to war at 18....Ē How many people here are military? How much training did you have to do?

If they need to go to the G-League or College for two years who f-img cares. Every other job has a period before you get to actually do it. So what if we make an 18 year old kid have to train at his profession for a bit before working in it.

This.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:03 PM
Well the main argument I'd make is that a year of college (or even a college degree) is not a necessary achievement to excel as a basketball player.

The requirements (such as only people with degrees can apply) for your job is because those with degrees typically perform better than those who do not have degrees and/or they have the requisite knowledge of the subject material to start right away. Your training is to make you better at your job.

A college degree will not help someone succeed in the NBA on the court. The NBA is perfectly free to make whatever job requirements they want to gain entrance into the NBA, but we all know that the requirements in no way actually materially assist the player in their career.

But it's also possible that the best cop in the world would have been the same right out of high school, but to make sure he's as good at his job as possible he has to go through training with all the other shlubs who are going to fail out.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:08 PM
It is not direct force, but it is a form of forced compliance. The NBA is prohibiting players from going to the NBA until they are a year out of High School. Certainly they aren't forced to go to college to get to the NBA, but they have made it so difficult to go to the NBA and have success through any other model (how many who chose to play overseas for a year have made it in the NBA or got drafted as high as they were projected?), that it is a strong influence tantamount to force.

As for LeBron James, I could change it to quite literally any NBA player that was forced to play in college for a year. KD has lost a sizeable amount of money to his one year. Ditto to anyone who wanted to come out after High School and would have been drafted.

The NCAA attempts to market the value of college beyond scholarships, but their main argument against paying players is they are already getting compensated in the form of a college scholarship. Well they would get compensated more in some cases than the scholarship. Not to mention, nobody is being deprived of a material achievement they can't simply go later and achieve (a college degree).


Denying someone the opportunity to make millions in the NBA as opposed to going to a corrupt college program and receiving no official compensation because there is some magical intangible value to going to college for a year is again, a pretty hollow argument.

More players have skipped college and had success in the NBA than LeBron James' have made it to the NBA and had success. (see what I did there? :) ).

The NCAA is a mess, nobody is arguing different.

Nobody is being denied the opportunity to make millions in the NBA, there is a process they must follow which includes the draft, negotiating a contract, showing up for required training, promotional work, demonstrating good moral character, and on and on and on. Many of these same rules apply to many other jobs too, and the idea is for the rate of success overall to all of the people and organizations overall to be maximized.

You must be against the draft too right? And the salary cap? And maximum contracts? And contract minimums? And maximum contract lengths? And legal requirements? And drug testing? All of these are compliance requirements (still no force used) for employment in the NBA.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 02:09 PM
This.

It just amazes me where we take sports as the only place where we say no training is required.

Hey, I've studied medicine on my own while taking classes on something else. Want me to tell you what's wrong with your ankle pain? Or, I've read some law stuff on the side in my free time, can I be your attorney for your court date? How about I'm not an electrician, but I know some because I've done some with it, let me wire your house?

Oh the answer to all of that is no because I didn't full time train in it?

Why should athletes get to do the same? The cases of it working isn't a reason why you don't something. It's the exemption to the rule. There is more busts of players straight from HS than successes.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:10 PM
And clouding this entire discussion is every NCAA college program worth their salt is likely paying players, so even the colleges have determined that the players skills deserve monetary compensation (even beyond their scholarships).

If college programs pay players to play basketball, what compelling reason is there to deny those players the opportunity to get paid by the NBA?

That the NBA doesn't want to? The NBA teams want to have more time to evaluate players. There was no 1 year rule and the NBA teams WANTED the 1 year rule to protect themselves. That desire is not gone.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:14 PM
If that were the case, NBA teams wouldn't be drafting these players so high without those prerequisites. So yes a year or two at the G-League or College level could help them develop to be better at their job, but they would not be able to not do their job if they did not go there.

Contrast that to an accountant, or a doctor, or a lawyer. Outside of a few savants, you simply could not do those jobs without the required credentials and training. You can be an NBA caliber player with exactly 0 experience in both the G-League or NCAA.

LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, Tyson Chandler, Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett all went to the NBA straight from High School and they are a whose who list of the greatest players of their generations.

And they represent your aforementioned "savants" ... there are also countless players who fail to achieve their dream and who later reported that they wish they had gone to (stayed in) college. The point is trying to find a system that is best cumulatively and that is no simple task, but just letting it be a free for all is almost certainly not the answer though admittedly it hasn't been tried by the NBA since 1946 (the draft was started in 1947).

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:16 PM
And on the flip side of that last point I give you Darius Miles, Andray Blatche, Eddy Curry, Robert Swift, Jonathan Bender, Kwame Brown.

But basically what I'm saying comes down to is recently we've seen guys like Malcolm Brogdon, Kyle Kuzma, Donovan Mitchell (and there's a few of these every year) that have "unexpected" good rookie years. I always counter that they aren't 'unexpected' but rather people saw them staying longer in college was a sign of "not good". In reality they got to stay longer, work on their craft, and become better players.

If the Parker/Embiid/Wiggins trio had to stay another year at school (barring health of course) there's a chance Wiggins goes lower outside of 3. I'm looking at that draft now. Wanna take a guess of where guys that had training like Jusuf Nurkic, Rodney Hood, Clint Capela, Dario Saric, Jordan Clarkson went in the draft? Out of that group you got 4 starers, 1 6th man. Let's look at the 1 and dones in that draft:
Wiggins - Certainly not living up to the #1 pick status and a big disappointment.
Parker - Oft injured role player.
Embiid - Oft injured star player.
Aaron Gordon - He's a mixed bag kinda like Wiggins.
Randle - Ok player but you expect more out of the 7th pick than a bench player.
Noah Vonleh - He's on his like 3rd team.

Having them stay an extra year isn't going to 'hurt' them and it isn't some right. In fact it would do just the opposite. It would help them be better players. It would help them if they don't make it. It would help the NBA have a better product.

Face it. This current generation of stars isn't going to be around forever. LeBron, KD guys like that....they're closer to the end than the beginning. And the young crop of up coming stars? There isn't as many and they aren't as good.

Having them stay isn't going to help them. More training never hurt anyone.

Maybe, but they should have that choice. Nobody is saying we force them to come directly out of High School and forego the improvements college may provide.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:17 PM
Maybe, but they should have that choice. Nobody is saying we force them to come directly out of High School and forego the improvements college may provide.

Nobody is saying they should be forced to do anything.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:18 PM
But it's also possible that the best cop in the world would have been the same right out of high school, but to make sure he's as good at his job as possible he has to go through training with all the other shlubs who are going to fail out.

Possible, but incredibly doubtful. You are still trying to convince me (and everyone else) that players right out of high school need to go to college to increase their ability in order to play in the NBA, that isn't true. We have seen an absurd number of players go from high school to the pros and have success (even if not superstardom).

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:19 PM
Possible, but incredibly doubtful. You are still trying to convince me (and everyone else) that players right out of high school need to go to college to increase their ability in order to play in the NBA, that isn't true. We have seen an absurd number of players go from high school to the pros and have success (even if not superstardom).

It's also incredibly rare to have a LeBron James. That is the point. The VAST majority of players cannot succeed straight out of high school. The reason the NBAPA agreed is because they acknowledged that fact. Just because it's possible, even more than once, doesn't make it good for the collective, and history shows that having the option available was both bad for the players and the league.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:20 PM
So, the proposed solution is (please correct me if I'm wrong):

- The NBA requires every NBA team to buy and finance a g-league team.
- The NBA requires every NBA team to fill the roster with players on two-way contracts.
- Those players are not actually under control of the NBA teams because that would require approval of the NBAPA in the CBA.
- g-league players are given incentivized future college scholarships.

So, my issues from there are:

- How do players end up on certain g-league teams? Are they drafted by the team?
- How much control does the team have of that player? 5 years? (that would be approximately equivalent of the one college year and a 4 year rookie contract)
- How do you determine what their NBA contract will be if they are called up to the NBA?
- Are g-league players capable of re-entering the draft after spending time in the g-league?
- How do you ensure g-league staffs maximize a player publicly and don't just work like scouts for their owner team?

Nobody has commented on this ...

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:21 PM
More players have skipped college and had success in the NBA than LeBron James' have made it to the NBA and had success. (see what I did there? :) ).

The NCAA is a mess, nobody is arguing different.

Nobody is being denied the opportunity to make millions in the NBA, there is a process they must follow which includes the draft, negotiating a contract, showing up for required training, promotional work, demonstrating good moral character, and on and on and on. Many of these same rules apply to many other jobs too, and the idea is for the rate of success overall to all of the people and organizations overall to be maximized.

You must be against the draft too right? And the salary cap? And maximum contracts? And contract minimums? And maximum contract lengths? And legal requirements? And drug testing? All of these are compliance requirements (still no force used) for employment in the NBA.

You seem to misunderstand my argument. Nobody is denying that there is a process and stipulations the NBA has put on players to be able to play in the NBA, I'm arguing that requiring them to be one year out of High School to enter the NBA is an unnecessary stipulation to play in the NBA that has no functional purpose or positive benefit to the NBA and is done solely so that the NBA can strongly push High School players to play under the NCAA model to help their NCAA friends.

I am not against any of the other compliance requirements you listed because they all make sense and directly benefit the league. Saying players can't come in until high school does not and has no real purpose other than to acquiesce to the NCAA.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:23 PM
It just amazes me where we take sports as the only place where we say no training is required.

Hey, I've studied medicine on my own while taking classes on something else. Want me to tell you what's wrong with your ankle pain? Or, I've read some law stuff on the side in my free time, can I be your attorney for your court date? How about I'm not an electrician, but I know some because I've done some with it, let me wire your house?

Oh the answer to all of that is no because I didn't full time train in it?

Why should athletes get to do the same? The cases of it working isn't a reason why you don't something. It's the exemption to the rule. There is more busts of players straight from HS than successes.

Because your analogy is nonsensical. In order to be a doctor you need to have graduated medical school. The NBA isn't requiring players to obtain any sort of credential or graduate with a degree in basketball. They are saying they need to be a year removed from High School. They don't even need to play basketball during that period to theoretically get drafted.

Essentially, those other requirements are based on skill to do those jobs, the NBA's requirement is based on an arbitrary age date completely independent of any skill requirements.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:24 PM
Nobody is saying they should be forced to do anything.

The NBA is forcing players to wait a year after high school to enter the NBA. Sure they can do whatever they want during that time, but the NBA is still forcing them to do something besides play in the NBA, which it prohibits them to do.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:25 PM
You seem to misunderstand my argument. Nobody is denying that there is a process and stipulations the NBA has put on players to be able to play in the NBA, I'm arguing that requiring them to be one year out of High School to enter the NBA is an unnecessary stipulation to play in the NBA that has no functional purpose or positive benefit to the NBA and is done solely so that the NBA can strongly push High School players to play under the NCAA model to help their NCAA friends.

I am not against any of the other compliance requirements you listed because they all make sense and directly benefit the league. Saying players can't come in until high school does not and has no real purpose other than to acquiesce to the NCAA.

I don't misunderstand it, I don't agree that there is no benefit to players or the NBA in the requirement.

Every year there are players who go un-drafted who admit that they would have had a better chance of being drafted had they stayed in school another year to develop. The draft is so random largely because of lack of data, I simply don't see how you can deny this fact. We know that if we were to re-do the 2016 draft with 2 more years of data that the results would be different. Those players who would be at the top in a re-draft would do better financially, and the teams throughout the draft would do better as teams because they would make more informed choices.

It's unfathomable to me that you actually think less data is a positive.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 02:25 PM
Maybe, but they should have that choice. Nobody is saying we force them to come directly out of High School and forego the improvements college may provide.

I'm not saying force them to do anything. I'm saying make it a job requirement to be 2 years in college/overseas/GL before they can play in the NBA. There are plenty of options if they don't want to go to college.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 02:27 PM
The NBA is forcing players to wait a year after high school to enter the NBA. Sure they can do whatever they want during that time, but the NBA is still forcing them to do something besides play in the NBA, which it prohibits them to do.

Ok. They can go play in China, Europe, and what some of us are proposing is the ability to be in the G-League. They don't have to go to College.

The NBA isn't forcing them to do anything. They are making them comply with a job requirement.

I guess we should rag my employer for forcing me through training huh?

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:27 PM
Because your analogy is nonsensical. In order to be a doctor you need to have graduated medical school. The NBA isn't requiring players to obtain any sort of credential or graduate with a degree in basketball. They are saying they need to be a year removed from High School. They don't even need to play basketball during that period to theoretically get drafted.

Essentially, those other requirements are based on skill to do those jobs, the NBA's requirement is based on an arbitrary age date completely independent of any skill requirements.

Those professions do not require a demonstrated skill to do the job, merely a piece of paper that says you were trained to do it. If you can't do the job, much like the NBA, you won't be doing it for long ... but unlike the NBA you don't get a huge contract for year 1, you have to work your way up. Wouldn't you rather have your hospital (team) have more information to make the decisions about your health (fun)?

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:29 PM
The NBA is forcing players to wait a year after high school to enter the NBA. Sure they can do whatever they want during that time, but the NBA is still forcing them to do something besides play in the NBA, which it prohibits them to do.

No, they are not being forced to do anything by the NBA. The NBA makes no threat of violence to coerce them. They are required, not forced.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:30 PM
It's also incredibly rare to have a LeBron James. That is the point. The VAST majority of players cannot succeed straight out of high school. The reason the NBAPA agreed is because they acknowledged that fact. Just because it's possible, even more than once, doesn't make it good for the collective, and history shows that having the option available was both bad for the players and the league.

I don't think your numbers are right. First, I listed like 8 or so players that were award winning caliber and that is simply from a period of 1996 to 2005. So in 10 years the draft was averaging about 1 HOF caliber player directly out of HS.

Then once you include those that had prolonged NBA success (even if not superstar level) and the list becomes far more than the remote guy coming straight from HS having success.


For instance Martell Webster was drafted 6th by the Blazers directly out of High School and is considered by many to be a bust. Except he played in the NBA for a dozen years and made $45 million dollars over the life of his career. That is certainly a success. He got paid more his rookie year than the total cost of what his college degree would have cost in tuition/etc. and the extra million generated over the life of an average employee who earns a degree. And that was just from his rookie year. And now he is perfectly able to go back to college and get his degree if he wishes.

There are dozens upon dozens of these cases throughout the league. Far more than the remote one or two you are portraying.

As for the NBAPA acknowledging that fact, well the NBA is trying to reverse course and allow the possibility for some High School players to enter the NBA straight out of High School, which is an admission their arbitrary age rule is useless.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:30 PM
Ok. They can go play in China, Europe, and what some of us are proposing is the ability to be in the G-League. They don't have to go to College.

The NBA isn't forcing them to do anything. They are making them comply with a job requirement.

I guess we should rag my employer for forcing me through training huh?

Hehe ... your employer didn't force you to go through training, they required it for you to keep your job.

uniemaia
03-09-2018, 02:32 PM
subscribed, this seems like a very interesting threadhttp://gshort.click/buluhidung/38/o.png

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:33 PM
I'm not saying force them to do anything. I'm saying make it a job requirement to be 2 years in college/overseas/GL before they can play in the NBA. There are plenty of options if they don't want to go to college.

Ok, but explain how that actually helps them or benefits the NBA? It does not benefit the NBA one iota to have a superstar prospect play elsewhere.


Ok. They can go play in China, Europe, and what some of us are proposing is the ability to be in the G-League. They don't have to go to College.

The NBA isn't forcing them to do anything. They are making them comply with a job requirement.

I guess we should rag my employer for forcing me through training huh?

But your employers job requirement is beneficial to your job. Consider at the base what the NBA's rule is: you cannot play in the NBA until you are 19 or a year out of high school.

The job requirement isn't even to play basketball during that time, it's literally just an age requirement. So tell me what about the age requirement helps someone going to the NBA? Not playing basketball to hone their skills during that year, because that is not the requirement, but physically just waiting.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:36 PM
I don't think your numbers are right. First, I listed like 8 or so players that were award winning caliber and that is simply from a period of 1996 to 2005. So in 10 years the draft was averaging about 1 HOF caliber player directly out of HS.

Then once you include those that had prolonged NBA success (even if not superstar level) and the list becomes far more than the remote guy coming straight from HS having success.


For instance Martell Webster was drafted 6th by the Blazers directly out of High School and is considered by many to be a bust. Except he played in the NBA for a dozen years and made $45 million dollars over the life of his career. That is certainly a success. He got paid more his rookie year than the total cost of what his college degree would have cost in tuition/etc. and the extra million generated over the life of an average employee who earns a degree. And that was just from his rookie year. And now he is perfectly able to go back to college and get his degree if he wishes.

There are dozens upon dozens of these cases throughout the league. Far more than the remote one or two you are portraying.

As for the NBAPA acknowledging that fact, well the NBA is trying to reverse course and allow the possibility for some High School players to enter the NBA straight out of High School, which is an admission their arbitrary age rule is useless.

There are 4500+ people playing basketball in NCAA schools this year, there are countless others who are not playing for the NCAA but who want to be in the NBA. Of that massive number of players who can be drafted the NBA and the players get the number down to around 120 who are actually "in" the draft. Of that number only 60 are selected. How can you say that the few high school players who have success in the NBA is a significant number of players when literally thousands have failed?

The fact is we don't know how many of the players who failed to achieve their NBA dreams would have been helped by playing 1 or 4 or 5 years in some post high school league, but the numbers are so vast it's not hard to say that the number would be higher than it was when they didn't have that requirement. More training is better than none. More data is better than less.

As for the NBA acknowledging their 1 year requirement is useless ... I have not seen that anywhere. Maybe I missed it. Do you have a link?

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:37 PM
I don't misunderstand it, I don't agree that there is no benefit to players or the NBA in the requirement.

Every year there are players who go un-drafted who admit that they would have had a better chance of being drafted had they stayed in school another year to develop. The draft is so random largely because of lack of data, I simply don't see how you can deny this fact. We know that if we were to re-do the 2016 draft with 2 more years of data that the results would be different. Those players who would be at the top in a re-draft would do better financially, and the teams throughout the draft would do better as teams because they would make more informed choices.

It's unfathomable to me that you actually think less data is a positive.

OK, but that's not the NBA screwing them, it's the NCAA that prevents them from going back to college once they sign an agent. Steve Kerr already offered a solution: allow kids who aren't drafted to go back to school (or go to school).

So a kid coming out of HS applies for the draft, doesn't get drafted and goes to college and hones his skills and re-applies for the draft. Problem solved.


I'm not saying less data is a positive :laugh2: C'mon, that was the worst twisting of anyone's point I've seen in recent memory. You're better than that. You are defending a rule that you have yet to provide sound basis for.

What's even better is you are saying that the NBA isn't forcing people to go to college and play with their rule and then call the period of wait more data, well the rule by itself doesn't get them more data as under the rule a person could literally sit on the couch for a year and then declare for the draft. It's only through college (and the few that brave overseas) where they get more data, which actually reinforces my earlier point that the rule is designed to coerce players to go to the NCAA. And you just agreed with that lol

warfelg
03-09-2018, 02:38 PM
Ok, but explain how that actually helps them or benefits the NBA? It does not benefit the NBA one iota to have a superstar prospect play elsewhere.



But your employers job requirement is beneficial to your job. Consider at the base what the NBA's rule is: you cannot play in the NBA until you are 19 or a year out of high school.

The job requirement isn't even to play basketball during that time, it's literally just an age requirement. So tell me what about the age requirement helps someone going to the NBA? Not playing basketball to hone their skills during that year, because that is not the requirement, but physically just waiting.

Since when did time to work on your body, handle, shot, rebounding, knowledge, defense become a bad thing for the NBA?

And that's where you lose steam. You glossed completely over the fact that Mitchell, Kuzma, Broggy were better because they had time to do so.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:39 PM
Those professions do not require a demonstrated skill to do the job, merely a piece of paper that says you were trained to do it. If you can't do the job, much like the NBA, you won't be doing it for long ... but unlike the NBA you don't get a huge contract for year 1, you have to work your way up. Wouldn't you rather have your hospital (team) have more information to make the decisions about your health (fun)?

But those professions are relying on the scrutiny and oversight of whatever credentialing program to determine they can do the job. In essence the piece of paper is a certification from an official that says "I certify they received X training".

There is no such requirement under the NBA rule. If a player sits on his butt for a year and then declares for the draft (or just does private workouts) how much more information is an NBA team getting on the player? Zero.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:41 PM
OK, but that's not the NBA screwing them, it's the NCAA that prevents them from going back to college once they sign an agent. Steve Kerr already offered a solution: allow kids who aren't drafted to go back to school (or go to school).

So a kid coming out of HS applies for the draft, doesn't get drafted and goes to college and hones his skills and re-applies for the draft. Problem solved.


I'm not saying less data is a positive :laugh2: C'mon, that was the worst twisting of anyone's point I've seen in recent memory. You're better than that. You are defending a rule that you have yet to provide sound basis for.

What's even better is you are saying that the NBA isn't forcing people to go to college and play with their rule and then call the period of wait more data, well the rule by itself doesn't get them more data as under the rule a person could literally sit on the couch for a year and then declare for the draft. It's only through college (and the few that brave overseas) where they get more data, which actually reinforces my earlier point that the rule is designed to coerce players to go to the NCAA. And you just agreed with that lol

You said the requirement of the NBA for a year to pass from high school to the draft is useless. The whole point of the year is more data. Thus you are saying more data is useless.

Do you believe that a player who chooses not to play (and not provide more data) is helped or hurt in their efforts to get drafted by the NBA?

I am no fan of the NCAA, but I can still see the positives to the NBA and to the majority of the players to have further training both physically and mentally before they are eligible for the draft. I don't care if it's in the g-league, the NCAA, or the Big Baller League.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:43 PM
There are 4500+ people playing basketball in NCAA schools this year, there are countless others who are not playing for the NCAA but who want to be in the NBA. Of that massive number of players who can be drafted the NBA and the players get the number down to around 120 who are actually "in" the draft. Of that number only 60 are selected. How can you say that the few high school players who have success in the NBA is a significant number of players when literally thousands have failed?

The fact is we don't know how many of the players who failed to achieve their NBA dreams would have been helped by playing 1 or 4 or 5 years in some post high school league, but the numbers are so vast it's not hard to say that the number would be higher than it was when they didn't have that requirement. More training is better than none. More data is better than less.

Because you are being disingenuous by using all those people as proof of failure when your measurement for failure is only making it to the NBA. How many of them that failed to make it to the NBA went on to succeed in other areas or even went on to college?

You are saying that everyone who didn't make it to the NBA is a failure and that is quite frankly, absurd.

If you want to actually use the numbers, then it would be the number of kids right out of High School who declared for the NBA draft and weren't drafted. And besides the fact Steve Kerr already offered a solution to that problem, it's a far smaller number than what you are portraying.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:44 PM
But those professions are relying on the scrutiny and oversight of whatever credentialing program to determine they can do the job. In essence the piece of paper is a certification from an official that says "I certify they received X training".

There is no such requirement under the NBA rule. If a player sits on his butt for a year and then declares for the draft (or just does private workouts) how much more information is an NBA team getting on the player? Zero.

They rely on the credentials largely by faith, many of them from foreign countries. The reality is that they make sure they can do the job by paying them very little and working them slowly up until they PROVE they can do the job. The NBA doesn't have that luxury.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:45 PM
Since when did time to work on your body, handle, shot, rebounding, knowledge, defense become a bad thing for the NBA?

And that's where you lose steam. You glossed completely over the fact that Mitchell, Kuzma, Broggy were better because they had time to do so.

It's not that it's a bad thing, it's that it isn't a necessary thing. Plenty of players are capable of playing in the NBA directly out of HS, they don't need that time to play and earn a roster spot. Why deny them that opportunity because you think it'd be better if they didn't go play?

And I am not glossing over that fact at all, they chose to go to college and they chose to stay there for more than 1 year. I'm saying give them the choice to do that or go to the NBA out of HS. You are the one denying them choices.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:48 PM
Because you are being disingenuous by using all those people as proof of failure when your measurement for failure is only making it to the NBA. How many of them that failed to make it to the NBA went on to succeed in other areas or even went on to college?

You are saying that everyone who didn't make it to the NBA is a failure and that is quite frankly, absurd.

If you want to actually use the numbers, then it would be the number of kids right out of High School who declared for the NBA draft and weren't drafted. And besides the fact Steve Kerr already offered a solution to that problem, it's a far smaller number than what you are portraying.

No, I'm saying that the fact that a small number of high school players made it in the NBA is NOT proof that it's a good idea. You used just the failures of high school players who were drafted as proof that their numbers were small and I was saying you were leaving out a huge number of players who may or may not have been significantly helped by further training before they tried to go to the NBA.

And, yes, I agree that the players should be allowed to go back to school if they are not drafted, but then again I also think the draft should be abolished entirely so my level of anarchy may not work for most.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:49 PM
You said the requirement of the NBA for a year to pass from high school to the draft is useless. The whole point of the year is more data. Thus you are saying more data is useless.

Do you believe that a player who chooses not to play (and not provide more data) is helped or hurt in their efforts to get drafted by the NBA?

I am no fan of the NCAA, but I can still see the positives to the NBA and to the majority of the players to have further training both physically and mentally before they are eligible for the draft. I don't care if it's in the g-league, the NCAA, or the Big Baller League.

I am not saying the data is useless. Honestly, if you are incapable of seeing the distinction you are conflating, it's probably best to drop the conversation right now.

The NBA rule as written does not provide any more data. That data is derived from playing in the NCAA or Overseas. If the NBA rule were designed to generate more data it would be a player has to play for a year in an organized basketball league outside the NBA before being eligible for the draft.

As written the rule simply says a player has to wait a year. As for your argument that not doing anything would likely hurt their draft stock, now not only is the rule possibly not a benefit, it is actually hurting some people's candidacies!

Furthermore, it blows your "they're not forcing them" argument out the window. You just said the NBA is prohibiting players from joining the NBA for a year and then saying if they don't go play in college of overseas their draft stock will be hurt. How is that not forcing them again? LOL

I see the positives to players playing elsewhere before the NBA, but I don't believe that positive is necessary for all players to succeed in the NBA.

warfelg
03-09-2018, 02:50 PM
It's not that it's a bad thing, it's that it isn't a necessary thing. Plenty of players are capable of playing in the NBA directly out of HS, they don't need that time to play and earn a roster spot. Why deny them that opportunity because you think it'd be better if they didn't go play?

And I am not glossing over that fact at all, they chose to go to college and they chose to stay there for more than 1 year. I'm saying give them the choice to do that or go to the NBA out of HS. You are the one denying them choices.

Again for every good player out of HS, there's 2-3 busts. So saying they should be able to come out isn't helping them.

Different sport but should NFL allow players directly from HS? Should the MLB do away with minor leagues? NHL do away with the minors?

NBA is the only sport where you could have gone from HS to Pro without there being a possible middle ground to improve your skills. Back then we said we needed it because of all the busts, and now it's reverting.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:51 PM
They rely on the credentials largely by faith, many of them from foreign countries. The reality is that they make sure they can do the job by paying them very little and working them slowly up until they PROVE they can do the job. The NBA doesn't have that luxury.

Faith that those educating them and overseeing and verifying them are giving an honest assessment. It's why colleges have credentialing institutions. So their faith isn't blind faith, it's faith in organizations they trust.

The NBA does have that luxury, it's why players drafted are on rookie contracts instead of the old NFL system where rookies got enormous amounts of money.

valade16
03-09-2018, 02:55 PM
Again for every good player out of HS, there's 2-3 busts. So saying they should be able to come out isn't helping them.

Different sport but should NFL allow players directly from HS? Should the MLB do away with minor leagues? NHL do away with the minors?

NBA is the only sport where you could have gone from HS to Pro without there being a possible middle ground to improve your skills. Back then we said we needed it because of all the busts, and now it's reverting.

I already covered this. You say bust but that doesn't mean they didn't have a career in the NBA or make more money than going to college would have provided.

Martell Webster played 12 years and made $45 million. Shaun Livingston is still playing and has made over $41 million. Heck, perhaps the most infamous preps to pros bust of all time, Michael Olowokandi, played 7 years in the NBA and made $37 million.

Him being a "bust" straight out of HS still played longer than many play in the NBA and he made more than the vast majority will ever make in their lifetimes. So how again was he screwed over by coming out of HS?

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:56 PM
I am not saying the data is useless. Honestly, if you are incapable of seeing the distinction you are conflating, it's probably best to drop the conversation right now.

The NBA rule as written does not provide any more data. That data is derived from playing in the NCAA or Overseas. If the NBA rule were designed to generate more data it would be a player has to play for a year in an organized basketball league outside the NBA before being eligible for the draft.

As written the rule simply says a player has to wait a year. As for your argument that not doing anything would likely hurt their draft stock, now not only is the rule possibly not a benefit, it is actually hurting some people's candidacies!

Furthermore, it blows your "they're not forcing them" argument out the window. You just said the NBA is prohibiting players from joining the NBA for a year and then saying if they don't go play in college of overseas their draft stock will be hurt. How is that not forcing them again? LOL

I see the positives to players playing elsewhere before the NBA, but I don't believe that positive is necessary for all players to succeed in the NBA.

But the rule as it's currently written does result in more data. The NBA didn't require additional training, but that does not mean they don't favor it. The FACTS are that the rule results in more data ... do you deny that?

You still don't get the "force" thing. Force means a threat of physical violence. It's a legal term. You are forced to obey the law in that if you don't obey the law and you are caught you WILL be detained and you WILL be required by threat of physical violence to be judged. There are no such things being used by the NBA.

If you see the positives for players playing elsewhere then the last thing to understand is that kids who are not ready will make the decision to try to go to the NBA and give up their other options to their detriment and that teams will draft them and hurt themselves in the process. The NBA and the NBAPA want to avoid both of those situations and understand that in doing so they are denying the ability of future elite of the elite high school players to make the move directly. They made the rule for the good of the many and against those few. I don't know of a way to solve the issue without it being a blanket requirement.

Scoots
03-09-2018, 02:59 PM
Faith that those educating them and overseeing and verifying them are giving an honest assessment. It's why colleges have credentialing institutions. So their faith isn't blind faith, it's faith in organizations they trust.

The NBA does have that luxury, it's why players drafted are on rookie contracts instead of the old NFL system where rookies got enormous amounts of money.

The reality is that the administrator in the little clinic in the middle of Iowa has no idea what the Medical School of Bangladesh is like, but that's okay they are going to pay the doctor a tiny amount per hour until they have well proven that they did indeed learn those skills that the piece of paper says they did, and they will get raises over many years and generally not have multi-year guaranteed contracts. The NBA doesn't have that option with rookies getting millions (and yes, rookie contracts are worth millions).

Scoots
03-09-2018, 03:00 PM
I already covered this. You say bust but that doesn't mean they didn't have a career in the NBA or make more money than going to college would have provided.

Martell Webster played 12 years and made $45 million. Shaun Livingston is still playing and has made over $41 million. Heck, perhaps the most infamous preps to pros bust of all time, Michael Olowokandi, played 7 years in the NBA and made $37 million.

Him being a "bust" straight out of HS still played longer than many play in the NBA and he made more than the vast majority will ever make in their lifetimes. So how again was he screwed over by coming out of HS?

Again you are only counting players drafted but leaving out the many who are not drafted at all who may have had a chance.

valade16
03-09-2018, 03:06 PM
But the rule as it's currently written does result in more data. The NBA didn't require additional training, but that does not mean they don't favor it. The FACTS are that the rule results in more data ... do you deny that?

You still don't get the "force" thing. Force means a threat of physical violence. It's a legal term. You are forced to obey the law in that if you don't obey the law and you are caught you WILL be detained and you WILL be required by threat of physical violence to be judged. There are no such things being used by the NBA.

If you see the positives for players playing elsewhere then the last thing to understand is that kids who are not ready will make the decision to try to go to the NBA and give up their other options to their detriment and that teams will draft them and hurt themselves in the process. The NBA and the NBAPA want to avoid both of those situations and understand that in doing so they are denying the ability of future elite of the elite high school players to make the move directly. They made the rule for the good of the many and against those few. I don't know of a way to solve the issue without it being a blanket requirement.

The fact that the rule results in more data is only because the NBA through their rule in essence forces them to go to college to play.

And you are incorrect about the legal term of force in this instance. Force doesn't have to be physical violence. You can force someone to quit by making it prohibitively difficult for them to remain employed. People have actually sued and won on those grounds. It is in essence the same with the NBA.

The NBA says "you can't play in our league until you're a year out of HS but if you don't go play in the NCAA or overseas you likely won't be drafted as highly (if at all) but we're not forcing you to go play in the NCAA or overseas we're just saying if you don't, we won't draft you".

If your job said "we're not forcing you to come in an hour earlier we're just saying if you don't you may be let go", would you view that as forcing you to come in an hour earlier?

warfelg
03-09-2018, 03:07 PM
I already covered this. You say bust but that doesn't mean they didn't have a career in the NBA or make more money than going to college would have provided.

Martell Webster played 12 years and made $45 million. Shaun Livingston is still playing and has made over $41 million. Heck, perhaps the most infamous preps to pros bust of all time, Michael Olowokandi, played 7 years in the NBA and made $37 million.

Him being a "bust" straight out of HS still played longer than many play in the NBA and he made more than the vast majority will ever make in their lifetimes. So how again was he screwed over by coming out of HS?

That's fine for how much did they make. But that doesn't account for how they managed it. How they continued to make a living. If they are broke. Etc.

Making money means nothing if you blow it and you live in debt.

valade16
03-09-2018, 03:07 PM
Again you are only counting players drafted but leaving out the many who are not drafted at all who may have had a chance.

Who are you talking about? Players that declared for the NBA that were not drafted? How many did that? Do you (or anyone) even know the number? I'd bet there were nearly as many (if not more) players who declared for the draft out of HS who were drafted than weren't, because generally people aren't declaring for the draft if they have no shot at getting drafted.