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valade16
02-26-2018, 02:43 PM
So we do a “top 25 greatest players of all-time list” here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O’Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant
16. Jerry West
17. Dwyane Wade

valade16
02-26-2018, 02:45 PM
Sorry I took so long between the last poll and this one, I was in SC for a conference.

WaDe03
02-26-2018, 02:50 PM
7 or 8 spots too late but PSD finally got him in.

valade16
02-26-2018, 03:13 PM
Questions I have this round:

1. West going over Big O is interesting considering virtually everyone in their time believed Big O was the superior player quite clearly.

2. Given KG's playoff resume, should he really go over D-Rob (let alone Barkley or Dirk)?

3. When should CP3 start being a consideration? His numbers both in the regular season and playoffs are stellar.

dhopisthename
02-26-2018, 03:23 PM
Questions I have this round:

1. West going over Big O is interesting considering virtually everyone in their time believed Big O was the superior player quite clearly.

2. Given KG's playoff resume, should he really go over D-Rob (let alone Barkley or Dirk)?

3. When should CP3 start being a consideration? His numbers both in the regular season and playoffs are stellar.

I can't believe west went 16th after seeing how he does in redrafts. I think based on those alone he would go like 30th

valade16
02-26-2018, 03:25 PM
I can't believe west went 16th after seeing how he does in redrafts. I think based on those alone he would go like 30th

This list is weird in that an ATRD with a 3 year prime rule is perhaps the closest approximation PSD comes to the question I'm attempting to ask and the results of the draft and which players are valued is vastly different than this list.

ewing
02-26-2018, 03:25 PM
Just going to leave this here


https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2002-nba-western-conference-first-round-timberwolves-vs-mavericks.html

valade16
02-26-2018, 03:26 PM
With Russell still out there I'm not voting on old guys. winning the MVP for like 1/2 a decade should get you some love when it comes to peak

But this isn't peak according to accolades, it's according to ability. So the question is, regardless of whether he won MVP for half a decade, would he be that good in other eras vs other players? Or similarly, if say KG, or Dirk, or Shaq were transplanted to the 60's, wouldn't they have also won a comparable amount of MVPs?

Or put the way I wished to ask the question: if you were drafting a team of every player in their prime for your team, would you draft KG or Russell or Barkley or Ewing, etc., right now?

ewing
02-26-2018, 03:27 PM
Questions I have this round:

1. West going over Big O is interesting considering virtually everyone in their time believed Big O was the superior player quite clearly.

2. Given KG's playoff resume, should he really go over D-Rob (let alone Barkley or Dirk)?

3. When should CP3 start being a consideration? His numbers both in the regular season and playoffs are stellar.

With Russell still out there I'm not voting for old guys period

flips333
02-26-2018, 04:09 PM
But this isn't peak according to accolades, it's according to ability. So the question is, regardless of whether he won MVP for half a decade, would he be that good in other eras vs other players? Or similarly, if say KG, or Dirk, or Shaq were transplanted to the 60's, wouldn't they have also won a comparable amount of MVPs?

Or put the way I wished to ask the question: if you were drafting a team of every player in their prime for your team, would you draft KG or Russell or Barkley or Ewing, etc., right now?

It's an interesting question because right now, we should devalue all the big men. The way the game is played today they just don't have the same impact.

Jamiecballer
02-26-2018, 04:20 PM
Just going to leave this here


https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2002-nba-western-conference-first-round-timberwolves-vs-mavericks.htmlGreat series for nowitzki. Still not the better player of the two though.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Chronz
02-26-2018, 04:21 PM
Questions I have this round:

1. West going over Big O is interesting considering virtually everyone in their time believed Big O was the superior player quite clearly.

2. Given KG's playoff resume, should he really go over D-Rob (let alone Barkley or Dirk)?

3. When should CP3 start being a consideration? His numbers both in the regular season and playoffs are stellar.

Quite clearly? Doubtful

Nope, prolly ahead of wade tho

Prolly after Dirk, kg n chuck

ewing
02-26-2018, 04:29 PM
But this isn't peak according to accolades, it's according to ability. So the question is, regardless of whether he won MVP for half a decade, would he be that good in other eras vs other players? Or similarly, if say KG, or Dirk, or Shaq were transplanted to the 60's, wouldn't they have also won a comparable amount of MVPs?

Or put the way I wished to ask the question: if you were drafting a team of every player in their prime for your team, would you draft KG or Russell or Barkley or Ewing, etc., right now?



I think they have to judged be against there peers. Otherwise, game in rules and style hamper non current players. Even a guy like Hakeem played primarily back to the basket and only went out to about 18 feet. I think he would have played differently and developed different skills if he played today but if we just dropped in current day he would be hampered. Some guy would have even looked different If they played today. I don't Alonzo becomes such a muscle head etc. I think Bird's skill set translates even better now, so maybe we elevate him

mightybosstone
02-26-2018, 04:36 PM
I don't have time now, but I'm planning to go hard for either Oscar or Chuck in this one. I'll try to make a solid case for one of those guys this evening.

LeonFSU
02-26-2018, 04:45 PM
Questions I have this round:

1. West going over Big O is interesting considering virtually everyone in their time believed Big O was the superior player quite clearly.

2. Given KG's playoff resume, should he really go over D-Rob (let alone Barkley or Dirk)?

3. When should CP3 start being a consideration? His numbers both in the regular season and playoffs are stellar.

What about Karl Malone?

Chronz
02-26-2018, 04:46 PM
I think they have to judged be against there peers. Otherwise, game in rules and style hamper non current players. Even a guy like Hakeem played primarily back to the basket and only went out to about 18 feet. I think he would have played differently and developed different skills if he played today but if we just dropped in current day he would be hampered. Some guy would have even looked different If they played today. I don't Alonzo becomes such a muscle head etc. I think Bird's skill set translates even better now, so maybe we elevate him

I've always mentioned zo for the simple fact that he would have thrived in his youth in today's game but the dude bulked up to play for his era. Today he would've stayed slender.

Duncan shed the weight late in his career and had a defensive revival. Which is funny considering he trained with hibbert but he chose to bulk up and die out

Chronz
02-26-2018, 04:47 PM
What about Karl Malone?
They're all within each other . Starting to think we should've done this by position tbh

valade16
02-26-2018, 04:56 PM
I think they have to judged be against there peers. Otherwise, game in rules and style hamper non current players. Even a guy like Hakeem played primarily back to the basket and only went out to about 18 feet. I think he would have played differently and developed different skills if he played today but if we just dropped in current day he would be hampered. Some guy would have even looked different If they played today. I don't Alonzo becomes such a muscle head etc. I think Bird's skill set translates even better now, so maybe we elevate him

To determine who was greatest or had the best legacy I absolutely agree, however the purpose of this list is specifically to do the exact opposite. I want to separate their ability from their legacy and accolades and time period.

Just simply, how good were they compared to every player ever? Not just their own era, but all players.

valade16
02-26-2018, 05:15 PM
Quite clearly? Doubtful

Nope, prolly ahead of wade tho

Prolly after Dirk, kg n chuck

Well he finished higher in MVP voting in virtually every year before he went to the Bucks.

1961:
Big O 5th
West 12th

1962
Big O 3rd
West 5th

1963
Big O 3rd
West 5th

1964
Big O 1st
West 5th

1965
Big O 2nd
West 3rd

1966
West 2nd
Big O 3rd

1967
Big O 4th
West N/A

1968
Big O 5th
West N/A

1969
West 2nd
Big O 16th

1970
West 2nd
Big O 5th


He is also consistently ranked higher in all-time lists:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160205/all-nbarank-11-15

Big O 11th
West 13th

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

Big O 12th
West 13th

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716

Big O 11th
West 14th

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

Big O 6th
West 9th

https://hoopshabit.com/2017/09/08/nba-50-greatest-players-time/39/https://hoopshabit.com/2017/09/08/nba-50-greatest-players-time/39/

Big O 12th
West 13th

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

Big O 10th
West 15th


Big O is generally considered the superior player to West by almost everyone except PSD. Heck, when old timers argue their guys, they argue Big O and not West vs current eras:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/10/03/kareem-says-oscar-robertson-better-than-jordan-or-lebron/

Even Jerry West thought Big O was the superior player to him (and he's said so on multiple occasions).

ewing
02-26-2018, 05:29 PM
Sorry I took so long between the last poll and this one, I was in SC for a conference.

You playing grab *** with the vendor ladies is no excuse for not posting,

Chronz
02-26-2018, 05:59 PM
To determine who was greatest or had the best legacy I absolutely agree, however the purpose of this list is specifically to do the exact opposite. I want to separate their ability from their legacy and accolades and time period.

Just simply, how good were they compared to every player ever? Not just their own era, but all players.
He's Talking about comparing their abilities vs their time period, since there have been so many advances to the game outside of any individual players doing. As an example, Jerry West vs Pete maravich. Now for their eras it was a no brainer, the pistol took crazy shots whereas Jerry mastered the mid range game and took a beating. Add a 3pt shot to the mix and all of a sudden its a closer debate. Now west is still clearly superior in my books but there is no doubting the interplay between a payers development and the era he partook in. Maybe West takes his gifts out abit further, to me if west played in today's era he'd be a mix of Stockton and curry. It just wasn't beneficial to take shots out there and it certainly wasn't preached.

League averages matter in just about any relevant advanced stat

Chronz
02-26-2018, 06:03 PM
Well he finished higher in MVP voting in virtually every year before he went to the Bucks.

1961:
Big O 5th
West 12th

1962
Big O 3rd
West 5th

1963
Big O 3rd
West 5th

1964
Big O 1st
West 5th

1965
Big O 2nd
West 3rd

1966
West 2nd
Big O 3rd

1967
Big O 4th
West N/A

1968
Big O 5th
West N/A

1969
West 2nd
Big O 16th

1970
West 2nd
Big O 5th


He is also consistently ranked higher in all-time lists:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160205/all-nbarank-11-15

Big O 11th
West 13th

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

Big O 12th
West 13th

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716

Big O 11th
West 14th

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

Big O 6th
West 9th

https://hoopshabit.com/2017/09/08/nba-50-greatest-players-time/39/https://hoopshabit.com/2017/09/08/nba-50-greatest-players-time/39/

Big O 12th
West 13th

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

Big O 10th
West 15th


Big O is generally considered the superior player to West by almost everyone except PSD. Heck, when old timers argue their guys, they argue Big O and not West vs current eras:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/10/03/kareem-says-oscar-robertson-better-than-jordan-or-lebron/

Even Jerry West thought Big O was the superior player to him (and he's said so on multiple occasions).

Pretty sure players voted back then and it looked like a debate to me even with that.

And I'll go through the rankings later but why are you mentioning current outlets when speaking of back then? Even so, I'm always skeptical of rankings that mention the triple double yet neglect west superior production, arbitrarily shiny things need not apply but back then it was different. I'll go through my old school rankings to double check but it was clearly always a debate

valade16
02-26-2018, 06:18 PM
Pretty sure players voted back then and it looked like a debate to me even with that.

And I'll go through the rankings later but why are you mentioning current outlets when speaking of back then? Even so, I'm always skeptical of rankings that mention the triple double yet neglect west superior production, arbitrarily shiny things need not apply but back then it was different. I'll go through my old school rankings to double check but it was clearly always a debate

I know they did for a period of time, not sure if it was throughout the 60's, but either way that would only strengthen my argument as Big O while not ahead by much in years, was still almost always ahead.

I don't know why you'd be skeptical of outlets that mention the triple double considering that would be the criteria most older people would have used to judge who was better between the two.

As for West's superior production, I'm not sure what you're talking about:

Big O: 25.7 PPG | 7.5 RPG | 9.5 APG | 48.5 FG% | 83.8 FT% | 23.2 PER | .564 TS% | .207 WS/48
West: 27.0 PPG | 5.8 RPG | 6.7 APG | 47.4 FG% | 81.4 FG% | 22.9 PER | .550 TS% | .213 WS/48

Big O seemed to have put up better numbers. Even when you look at his playoff numbers before he started declining compared to West's years of playoff excellence, they stack up very similar:

Big O 62-66 playoffs
30.3 PPG | 9.9 RPG | 9.2 APG | 45.6% FG | 86.7% FT | 24.3 PER | 56.2% TS | .198 WS/48

West 62-69 playoffs
31.9 PPG | 5.9 RPG | 5.4 APG | 48.5 FG% | 81.6 FT% | 24.2 PER | 55.7 TS% | .229 WS/48

It's pretty crazy that Big O was a more efficient scorer than West both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Yeah, maybe there was some debate, but the vast majority of people were of the opinion that Big O was the pre-eminent G of the generation.

mightybosstone
02-26-2018, 09:30 PM
So after thinking about it, I'm going with Oscar. Here's my case...

From 1962-667 (six-year span), these are the averages of Oscars regular season numbers:
30.5 points
10.9 points
9.3 rebounds
48.8% shooting
83.7% free throw shooting
25.9 PER
57.1% TS%
104.3 total WS
.239 average WS/48


In terms of accolades, all he did over that six-year span was this:
One MVP
Six straight top 4 MVP finishes
Six straight All-NBA 1st teams
Six playoff appearances
Two conference (division) finals appearances

And it's worth noting that Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain's teams knocked out five of those six Royals teams Oscar played on, so he wasn't losing to scrubs. Those Cincinatti teams had some talent, but his best teammates were Jerry Lucas (pretty damn good No. 2 for his era) and a past-his-prime Jack Twyman.

But if we compare that resume to other guys left, very few guys have numbers close to that and none of them have primes that consistent or statistically dominant overall. Peak Oscar was a juggernaut of productivity, and if we could have tracked steals back then, I have no doubt he would have been among the league leaders in that as well.

More-Than-Most
02-27-2018, 03:01 AM
7 or 8 spots too late but PSD finally got him in.

there is no argument for him over cp3/KG... but then again defense is irrelevant i guess. Was Wade ever the best at his position?

GREATNESS ONE
02-27-2018, 03:18 AM
Big O, Chuck, MailMan, or Dirk for me.

GREATNESS ONE
02-27-2018, 03:18 AM
Since my name is Oscar, I’ll vote for the Big O.

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 10:25 AM
there is no argument for him over cp3/KG... but then again defense is irrelevant i guess. Was Wade ever the best at his position?

Get the hell out of here, you're clueless. You literally only hate on Wade to try and boost LeBrons status, you've done this since LeBron went to Miami.

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 10:27 AM
You're asking "was Wade ever even the best at his position" like majority of his career wasn't played with a top 10 player ever at his position lol! That's not even a knock but to answer your question, yes he was. He was the best player in the world at times regardless of position.

More-Than-Most
02-27-2018, 11:23 AM
You're asking "was Wade ever even the best at his position" like majority of his career wasn't played with a top 10 player ever at his position lol! That's not even a knock but to answer your question, yes he was. He was the best player in the world at times regardless of position.

there was never a time where wade was ever the best player in the world... ever. From 2004 on their 2nd years lebron was above him every single year.

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 11:31 AM
there was never a time where wade was ever the best player in the world... ever. From 2004 on their 2nd years lebron was above him every single year.

Give me 05-06, 06-07 pre-injury, 08-09, and 10-11 Wade over LeBron. We can go back and forth all day but in the end you just made a terrible claim to hate on Wade to try and boost LeBron and you know it. You youre trolling when you say there's no debate for Wade over CP3 or KG.

mightybosstone
02-27-2018, 12:32 PM
there was never a time where wade was ever the best player in the world... ever. From 2004 on their 2nd years lebron was above him every single year.

I would say the same for Kobe, but the guy is still a top 10-15 player of all-time. These guys played in an era with an insane amount of talent with a top 2 all-time player and another top 5 caliber all-time player.

valade16
02-27-2018, 01:32 PM
there was never a time where wade was ever the best player in the world... ever. From 2004 on their 2nd years lebron was above him every single year.

You mean besides the 2011 playoffs, when Wade was the superior player to LeBron while they were on the same team?

bigmac8675
02-27-2018, 03:36 PM
It's kind of a toss-up between Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell for me. I went with Russell.

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 06:24 PM
Quite clearly? Doubtful

Nope, prolly ahead of wade tho

Prolly after Dirk, kg n chuck

Well he finished higher in MVP voting in virtually every year before he went to the Bucks.

1961:
Big O 5th
West 12th

1962
Big O 3rd
West 5th

1963
Big O 3rd
West 5th

1964
Big O 1st
West 5th

1965
Big O 2nd
West 3rd

1966
West 2nd
Big O 3rd

1967
Big O 4th
West N/A

1968
Big O 5th
West N/A

1969
West 2nd
Big O 16th

1970
West 2nd
Big O 5th


He is also consistently ranked higher in all-time lists:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160205/all-nbarank-11-15

Big O 11th
West 13th

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cbs-sports-50-greatest-nba-players-of-all-time-where-do-lebron-curry-rank/

Big O 12th
West 13th

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716

Big O 11th
West 14th

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/09/michael-jordan-lebron-james-stephen-curry-nba-greatest

Big O 6th
West 9th

https://hoopshabit.com/2017/09/08/nba-50-greatest-players-time/39/https://hoopshabit.com/2017/09/08/nba-50-greatest-players-time/39/

Big O 12th
West 13th

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

Big O 10th
West 15th


Big O is generally considered the superior player to West by almost everyone except PSD. Heck, when old timers argue their guys, they argue Big O and not West vs current eras:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/10/03/kareem-says-oscar-robertson-better-than-jordan-or-lebron/

Even Jerry West thought Big O was the superior player to him (and he's said so on multiple occasions).

That moment Valade owned Chronz but in a polite way.

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 06:25 PM
Questions I have this round:

1. West going over Big O is interesting considering virtually everyone in their time believed Big O was the superior player quite clearly.

2. Given KG's playoff resume, should he really go over D-Rob (let alone Barkley or Dirk)?

3. When should CP3 start being a consideration? His numbers both in the regular season and playoffs are stellar.

I can't believe west went 16th after seeing how he does in redrafts. I think based on those alone he would go like 30th

Makes anyone that ever had tmac in one of those games feel they got hosed.

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 06:27 PM
So after thinking about it, I'm going with Oscar. Here's my case...

From 1962-667 (six-year span), these are the averages of Oscars regular season numbers:
30.5 points
10.9 points
9.3 rebounds
48.8% shooting
83.7% free throw shooting
25.9 PER
57.1% TS%
104.3 total WS
.239 average WS/48

l.

Dayyyyum 30.5 points AND 10.9 points! Scoring machine. If that is 1st half and 2nd half tho then he is a choker like KG.

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 06:27 PM
You're asking "was Wade ever even the best at his position" like majority of his career wasn't played with a top 10 player ever at his position lol! That's not even a knock but to answer your question, yes he was. He was the best player in the world at times regardless of position.

there was never a time where wade was ever the best player in the world... ever. From 2004 on their 2nd years lebron was above him every single year.

Silly argument at this point because whoever we vote next will have overlapped careers with multiple top 10 players.

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 06:31 PM
Pretty sure players voted back then and it looked like a debate to me even with that.

And I'll go through the rankings later but why are you mentioning current outlets when speaking of back then? Even so, I'm always skeptical of rankings that mention the triple double yet neglect west superior production, arbitrarily shiny things need not apply but back then it was different. I'll go through my old school rankings to double check but it was clearly always a debate

I know they did for a period of time, not sure if it was throughout the 60's, but either way that would only strengthen my argument as Big O while not ahead by much in years, was still almost always ahead.

I don't know why you'd be skeptical of outlets that mention the triple double considering that would be the criteria most older people would have used to judge who was better between the two.

As for West's superior production, I'm not sure what you're talking about:

Big O: 25.7 PPG | 7.5 RPG | 9.5 APG | 48.5 FG% | 83.8 FT% | 23.2 PER | .564 TS% | .207 WS/48
West: 27.0 PPG | 5.8 RPG | 6.7 APG | 47.4 FG% | 81.4 FG% | 22.9 PER | .550 TS% | .213 WS/48

Big O seemed to have put up better numbers. Even when you look at his playoff numbers before he started declining compared to West's years of playoff excellence, they stack up very similar:

Big O 62-66 playoffs
30.3 PPG | 9.9 RPG | 9.2 APG | 45.6% FG | 86.7% FT | 24.3 PER | 56.2% TS | .198 WS/48

West 62-69 playoffs
31.9 PPG | 5.9 RPG | 5.4 APG | 48.5 FG% | 81.6 FT% | 24.2 PER | 55.7 TS% | .229 WS/48

It's pretty crazy that Big O was a more efficient scorer than West both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

Yeah, maybe there was some debate, but the vast majority of people were of the opinion that Big O was the pre-eminent G of the generation.

My vote is for Big O.

Chronz
02-27-2018, 06:33 PM
Wait. How does the players voting mean a thing in this context? How is that indicative of the intelligentsia

Chronz
02-27-2018, 06:34 PM
Dayyyyum 30.5 points AND 10.9 points! Scoring machine. If that is 1st half and 2nd half tho then he is a choker like KG.
That was his thing. Almost mundane in his stats. West outplayed him when both were at their best.

Chronz
02-27-2018, 06:35 PM
It's kind of a toss-up between Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell for me. I went with Russell.

Smart man

Chronz
02-27-2018, 06:36 PM
Give me 05-06, 06-07 pre-injury, 08-09, and 10-11 Wade over LeBron. We can go back and forth all day but in the end you just made a terrible claim to hate on Wade to try and boost LeBron and you know it. You youre trolling when you say there's no debate for Wade over CP3 or KG.

Over Bron? Lmfao boy you crazy

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 06:45 PM
Over Bron? Lmfao boy you crazy

05-06 the greatest finals performance ever, proved he was the best player in the world.

06-07 was proving it again and then hit with injury

08-09 MVP snub, him LeBron and Kobe were running the league

10-11 the Heats best player and the only one of the 2 to show up to the finals

mightybosstone
02-27-2018, 07:08 PM
05-06 the greatest finals performance ever, proved he was the best player in the world.

06-07 was proving it again and then hit with injury

08-09 MVP snub, him LeBron and Kobe were running the league

10-11 the Heats best player and the only one of the 2 to show up to the finals

Wade was DEFINITELY not better than Lebron in 08-09. That's absurd. That was one of Lebron's best statistical seasons, and the guy was an absolute monster that year. Wade's numbers don't come close. 06-07 was kind of a down year for Lebron, and you could make a solid case that Wade was better that year... except Wade only played in 51 games and the Heat were swept in the first round. AND that was the year Lebron drug a mediocre Cavs team to the Finals and he had that insane series against Detroit. So your case there is pretty weak, IMO.

I also don't buy Wade as the better player in 10-11. Lebron was clearly better. Wade just had a better Finals and a slightly more productive and efficient postseason overall. Your best case is 05-06 because of his Finals performance and because Wade's regular season advanced numbers aren't too far off Lebron.

But it's hard to find a season where you can definitively say "Wade was better than Lebron that season." There's 1-2 decent chances there, but you have to do some mental gymnastics to justify it.

Jamiecballer
02-27-2018, 07:21 PM
The guys name is wade03. Why do we continue to take the bait on ANYTHING wade related.

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KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 07:40 PM
Dayyyyum 30.5 points AND 10.9 points! Scoring machine. If that is 1st half and 2nd half tho then he is a choker like KG.
That was his thing. Almost mundane in his stats. West outplayed him when both were at their best.

Another mundane triple double. Lmfao

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 07:47 PM
The guys name is wade03. Why do we continue to take the bait on ANYTHING wade related.

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Bc its fun and Wade is debatable anywhere from 15 to 25? Now that Wade went tho its trolling

valade16
02-27-2018, 08:06 PM
Another mundane triple double. Lmfao

I think at this point his triple double actually hurts him in that people see it and dismiss it as a product of the era and then sort of dismiss him overall as well.

If you look at his stats, his efficiency was at or above West for virtually his entire peak, and he did that while rebounding and passing more than West, even in the playoffs. Yet people generally give West the benefit of the doubt because he could shoot but dismiss Big O despite the fact he was also a very good shooter for his time.

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 08:23 PM
Another mundane triple double. Lmfao

I think at this point his triple double actually hurts him in that people see it and dismiss it as a product of the era and then sort of dismiss him overall as well.

If you look at his stats, his efficiency was at or above West for virtually his entire peak, and he did that while rebounding and passing more than West, even in the playoffs. Yet people generally give West the benefit of the doubt because he could shoot but dismiss Big O despite the fact he was also a very good shooter for his time.

Oscar's free throw percentage by itself is pretty convincing. I would be curious to look how many +80% free throw shooters are bad 3pt shooters. 1 out of 5? 1 out of 10?

valade16
02-27-2018, 08:24 PM
Oscar's free throw percentage by itself is pretty convincing. I would be curious to look how many +80% free throw shooters are bad 3pt shooters. 1 out of 5? 1 out of 10?

We really need PSK here lol, he had talked about another guy who looked into the correlation between FT shooting and 3PT shooting and found a strong correlation (I forget the exact formula).

KnicksorBust
02-27-2018, 08:46 PM
Oscar's free throw percentage by itself is pretty convincing. I would be curious to look how many +80% free throw shooters are bad 3pt shooters. 1 out of 5? 1 out of 10?

We really need PSK here lol, he had talked about another guy who looked into the correlation between FT shooting and 3PT shooting and found a strong correlation (I forget the exact formula).

I wanna say something like divide by 2 then minus something. Maybe 5?

So an 90% ft is 40% 3pt and 80% means he should be around 35% or better. Either way with the exception of Ricky Rubio the correlation is definitely strong.

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 09:37 PM
Wade was DEFINITELY not better than Lebron in 08-09. That's absurd. That was one of Lebron's best statistical seasons, and the guy was an absolute monster that year. Wade's numbers don't come close. 06-07 was kind of a down year for Lebron, and you could make a solid case that Wade was better that year... except Wade only played in 51 games and the Heat were swept in the first round. AND that was the year Lebron drug a mediocre Cavs team to the Finals and he had that insane series against Detroit. So your case there is pretty weak, IMO.

I also don't buy Wade as the better player in 10-11. Lebron was clearly better. Wade just had a better Finals and a slightly more productive and efficient postseason overall. Your best case is 05-06 because of his Finals performance and because Wade's regular season advanced numbers aren't too far off Lebron.

But it's hard to find a season where you can definitively say "Wade was better than Lebron that season." There's 1-2 decent chances there, but you have to do some mental gymnastics to justify it.

That's why I said 06-07 pre injury. He was running away with the MVP and was looking prime to leading the team to a repeat. They were swept because Wade came back banged up when he shouldn't have.

That's fine if you all don't think he was better, LeBron is the 2nd greatest player and Wade was on his level multiple years. Wade was possibly on his way to accomplishing more.

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 09:37 PM
Bc its fun and Wade is debatable anywhere from 15 to 25? Now that Wade went tho its trolling

Should've been 10th though.

WaDe03
02-27-2018, 09:39 PM
And it's absurd for someone to say CP3 and KG we're better than Wade and it's not debatable and then their argument is "was he ever even the best player at his position?" Which he was, and his rival at that position is a top 10 player ever.

jaydubb
02-27-2018, 10:33 PM
Wade went way too early

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YAALREADYKNO
02-27-2018, 11:49 PM
Wade hit a game winner tonight so he should be elevated to #3 behind Jordan and Lebron

WaDe03
02-28-2018, 12:58 AM
Wade went way too late

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This!

jaydubb
02-28-2018, 09:50 PM
This is why you are so wise jaydubb! You're right, wade should be much lower on the list, maybe around 20-25. I shouldn't have made all of those fake accounts to vote wade in!

How courteous of you to admit your faults! It takes a real man to do that. :cheers:

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KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 09:00 AM
The "When will Bill Russell go?" saga continues...

WaDe03
03-01-2018, 11:00 AM
How courteous of you to admit your faults! It takes a real man to do that. :cheers:

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In all seriousness though, I'm guessing you're a Kobe fan. If that's the case I know you watched him and Wade head to head in their primes and saw Wade outplay him multiple times. Wade was the better peak player but it was close and I assume you were voting for Kobe even a few spots before 10th where he was selected.

WaDe03
03-01-2018, 12:37 PM
Do ever watch a game without Wade and do you even look at the guys not named Wade when you watch his games?

I watch multiple games every night.

ewing
03-01-2018, 12:39 PM
In all seriousness though, I'm guessing you're a Kobe fan. If that's the case I know you watched him and Wade head to head in their primes and saw Wade outplay him multiple times. Wade was the better peak player but it was close and I assume you were voting for Kobe even a few spots before 10th where he was selected.

Do ever watch a game without Wade and do you even look at the guys not named Wade when you watch his games?

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 12:43 PM
Congrats Big O. Time for KG. Also can we bury the Wade talk now? He's on the board.

jaydubb
03-01-2018, 01:15 PM
In all seriousness though, I'm guessing you're a Kobe fan. If that's the case I know you watched him and Wade head to head in their primes and saw Wade outplay him multiple times. Wade was the better peak player but it was close and I assume you were voting for Kobe even a few spots before 10th where he was selected.Lol.. I don't wanna get into the age old debate of kobe versus wade because that will go on forever. Yes I'm a laker/kobe fan but I'm also a wade fan tbh, I was just messing with ya earlier.

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mightybosstone
03-01-2018, 01:26 PM
Congrats Big O. Time for KG. Also can we bury the Wade talk now? He's on the board.

Mmm.... I dunno man. I'm still not sure why KG is so clearly above Barkley, Robinson or Dirk. I already posted in the last thread why his peak isn't better than Robinson's and just glancing at Barkley's peak from 88-91 in Philly and Dirk's from 05-07, I'm probably going to take those as well. KG's peak in Minnesota is just totally overrated on this site. The dude posted great numbers on mediocre Minnesota teams and then totally disappeared in the playoffs. If he doesn't go to Boston and win titles, we aren't even having this conversation right now. And he was past his peak as a Celtic, which makes this even more of a moot point.

ewing
03-01-2018, 02:14 PM
Mmm.... I dunno man. I'm still not sure why KG is so clearly above Barkley, Robinson or Dirk. I already posted in the last thread why his peak isn't better than Robinson's and just glancing at Barkley's peak from 88-91 in Philly and Dirk's from 05-07, I'm probably going to take those as well. KG's peak in Minnesota is just totally overrated on this site. The dude posted great numbers on mediocre Minnesota teams and then totally disappeared in the playoffs. If he doesn't go to Boston and win titles, we aren't even having this conversation right now. And he was past his peak as a Celtic, which makes this even more of a moot point.

I think he was at the end of his prime when he went to the Celtics. his first couple years in Boston he was playing a role that was more suitable for him and his numbers dropped accordingly. I think if anything Flip gave him the ball too much in Minn and it resulted in some inflated #s. Regardless he was a ghost act in the playoffs.

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 03:23 PM
Mmm.... I dunno man. I'm still not sure why KG is so clearly above Barkley, Robinson or Dirk.

I agree that is definitely up for debate.


I already posted in the last thread why his peak isn't better than Robinson's and just glancing at Barkley's peak from 88-91 in Philly and Dirk's from 05-07,

Statistically he wasn't but I'm looking more at skills. He was never as good a scorer as any of those players but I'll take his passing #1, his rebounding #2, his defense #1, and his work ethic tied for #1 and it's not like he couldn't score. Mid 20's with good efficiency and could spread the floor. Never clogged the lane.


I'm probably going to take those as well. KG's peak in Minnesota is just totally overrated on this site. The dude posted great numbers on mediocre Minnesota teams and then totally disappeared in the playoffs. If he doesn't go to Boston and win titles, we aren't even having this conversation right now. And he was past his peak as a Celtic, which makes this even more of a moot point.

I agree with Ewing we still had the "A" version of KG when he got to Boston. That's why he was DPOY and he finally could play the role he was meant to play. If I want to advocate that Bill Walton was transcendent for his impact then I have to be consistent and show KG the same respect. KG was meant to be an 18-20ppg/13rpg/5apg player with all-nba defense who made his teammates better.

ewing
03-01-2018, 05:09 PM
I agree that is definitely up for debate.



Statistically he wasn't but I'm looking more at skills. He was never as good a scorer as any of those players but I'll take his passing #1, his rebounding #2, his defense #1, and his work ethic tied for #1 and it's not like he couldn't score. Mid 20's with good efficiency and could spread the floor. Never clogged the lane.



I agree with Ewing we still had the "A" version of KG when he got to Boston. That's why he was DPOY and he finally could play the role he was meant to play. If I want to advocate that Bill Walton was transcendent for his impact then I have to be consistent and show KG the same respect. KG was meant to be an 18-20ppg/13rpg/5apg player with all-nba defense who made his teammates better.

Walton was a legit center with a McHale like post game and ability to rim protect. KG was a skinny power foward who played a mid range post. He neither collapsed defenses in the low post or rim protected like what Walton was said to

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KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 06:51 PM
I agree that is definitely up for debate.



Statistically he wasn't but I'm looking more at skills. He was never as good a scorer as any of those players but I'll take his passing #1, his rebounding #2, his defense #1, and his work ethic tied for #1 and it's not like he couldn't score. Mid 20's with good efficiency and could spread the floor. Never clogged the lane.



I agree with Ewing we still had the "A" version of KG when he got to Boston. That's why he was DPOY and he finally could play the role he was meant to play. If I want to advocate that Bill Walton was transcendent for his impact then I have to be consistent and show KG the same respect. KG was meant to be an 18-20ppg/13rpg/5apg player with all-nba defense who made his teammates better.

Walton was a legit center with a McHale like post game and ability to rim protect. KG was a skinny power foward who played a mid range post. He neither collapsed defenses in the low post or rim protected like what Walton was said to

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So KG went to 12 straight All-Defensive teams by luck? That 2008 dpoy was by accident? He didnt get attention by defenses? This is getting absurd. The revisionist history of Wade and KG's flaws game has become ridiculous. We SAW THEM. Wtf

Shammyguy3
03-01-2018, 07:14 PM
So KG went to 12 straight All-Defensive teams by luck? That 2008 dpoy was by accident? He didnt get attention by defenses? This is getting absurd. The revisionist history of Wade and KG's flaws game has become ridiculous. We SAW THEM. Wtf

Whose eyes did you see with though?!

KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 07:45 PM
So KG went to 12 straight All-Defensive teams by luck? That 2008 dpoy was by accident? He didnt get attention by defenses? This is getting absurd. The revisionist history of Wade and KG's flaws game has become ridiculous. We SAW THEM. Wtf

Whose eyes did you see with though?!

A 20 year olds. Lmao. I feel pretty confident about it

ewing
03-01-2018, 10:01 PM
So KG went to 12 straight All-Defensive teams by luck? That 2008 dpoy was by accident? He didnt get attention by defenses? This is getting absurd. The revisionist history of Wade and KG's flaws game has become ridiculous. We SAW THEM. Wtf

Yeah I saw him. I saw his teams consistently underachieve. I saw guys single cover in the post in the playoffs and him **** the bed. I saw teams with quality secondary guys have trouble getting looks playing through him bc his mid range turn around game didn’t collapse defenses. I saw him be an elite wing defending big but not an anchor bc he was too slight and needed a guy like Perkins next to him. He wasn’t facilitator or a scorer when his team needed a bucket. He was the guy who failed more often then not or cleared out and watched for a legit scorer. Like it or not everything points to KG #s in Minn being inflated.


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KnicksorBust
03-01-2018, 10:02 PM
null

Post this in the new thread if u want a reply.

Chronz
03-02-2018, 04:13 PM
I think he was at the end of his prime when he went to the Celtics. his first couple years in Boston he was playing a role that was more suitable for him and his numbers dropped accordingly. I think if anything Flip gave him the ball too much in Minn and it resulted in some inflated #s. Regardless he was a ghost act in the playoffs.
His numbers were better his first year in Boston than his prior year in Boston

Jamiecballer
03-02-2018, 06:41 PM
His numbers were better his first year in Boston than his prior year in BostonWtf?

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Chronz
03-02-2018, 08:55 PM
Boston boss