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View Full Version : Best Player of All-Time At Their Peak (#16)



valade16
02-18-2018, 04:42 PM
So we do a ďtop 25 greatest players of all-time listĒ here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille OíNeal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady
14. Bill Walton
15. Kevin Durant

Chronz
02-18-2018, 04:59 PM
It's between west from 65 to 70, 63 thru 66 era Bill Russell, 04 kg and 06 through 10(with injuries) wade

ewing
02-18-2018, 05:17 PM
Russell won 4 MVPs over a 5 year span. I donít think it is bt Russell and anyone. Itís Russell

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KnicksorBust
02-18-2018, 06:55 PM
I am on fire. Torn between West and Garnett.

My gut says West but my head says KG. Will think about it. Oscar should be soon too.

ewing
02-18-2018, 08:07 PM
I am on fire. Torn between West and Garnett.

My gut says West but my head says KG. Will think about it. Oscar should be soon too.

Your head is stupid


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bootsy
02-19-2018, 02:10 PM
LOL at Bill Walton and Tracy McGrady being top 15 of any best player of all time or peak or whatever. This poll is wack like so many on this forum.

Tg11
02-19-2018, 02:15 PM
The Big O is not top 15 he is top 10

basch152
02-19-2018, 02:40 PM
LOL at Bill Walton and Tracy McGrady being top 15 of any best player of all time or peak or whatever. This poll is wack like so many on this forum.

peak McGrady was definitely one of the best players ever.

very very few I would take over him.

KnicksorBust
02-19-2018, 02:41 PM
LOL at Bill Walton and Tracy McGrady being top 15 of any best player of all time or peak or whatever. This poll is wack like so many on this forum.

Wah wah.

make an argument or go away.

KnicksorBust
02-19-2018, 02:44 PM
I will go West. Cant vote on my phone. Shammy?

Whats the poll at right now?

Shammyguy3
02-19-2018, 02:52 PM
I will go West. Cant vote on my phone. Shammy?

Whats the poll at right now?

4-way tie (1 vote apiece) for Big O, West, KG, and CP3

KnicksorBust
02-20-2018, 09:02 AM
West > Wade

Better passer, shooter, dribbler, man defender.

Jamiecballer
02-20-2018, 10:02 AM
I'm sort of in the same boat as several others here. I never chime in on old-timers because there is too much nostalgia involved but mcgrady, kobe and garnett are all of the same vintage and garnetts peak in early to mid 2000's destroys both and they are here already. Its a joke. Top defender, shot blocker, rebounder, scorer AND passer all at the same time? This isnt an all-time list, its a who's your favorite scorer list.

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KnicksorBust
02-20-2018, 12:17 PM
I'm sort of in the same boat as several others here. I never chime in on old-timers because there is too much nostalgia involved but mcgrady, kobe and garnett are all of the same vintage and garnetts peak in early to mid 2000's destroys both and they are here already. Its a joke. Top defender, shot blocker, rebounder, scorer AND passer all at the same time? This isnt an all-time list, its a who's your favorite scorer list.

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Then why is Duncan #9? :confused:

Shammyguy3
02-20-2018, 01:10 PM
Then why is Duncan #9? :confused:

And Walton #14????

WaDe03
02-20-2018, 01:33 PM
Wade in the YMCA men's league would dominate.

Jamiecballer
02-20-2018, 05:58 PM
Then why is Duncan #9? :confused:Im not sure why you are confused. I didnt say everyone was voting nba live mentality but you can understand my confusion when the majority have agreed previously that Kobe gets as high as he does in most peoples ranking for longevity more than peak and yet in this silly poll he is tenth.

I have read more than post in these threads and there are a fairly limited number of people taking part and campaigning also.

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Shammyguy3
02-20-2018, 06:01 PM
Im not sure why you are confused. I didnt say everyone was voting nba live mentality but you can understand my confusion when the majority have agreed previously that Kobe gets as high as he does in most peoples ranking for longevity more than peak and yet in this silly poll he is tenth.

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when you have a small sample size of votes, there will be those that strictly care about voting for their favorite player that high. If you see that Kobe thread (10th), you can see that a number of voters have not voted on many other threads. Hence, this debacle.

Redrum187
02-21-2018, 09:17 AM
I'm glad West finally gets picked... I've had to wait for the boss (KoB) to vote so I don't throw my vote away and have Wade win.

I would ask that Dirk be placed in the voting options for #17. I'd take playoff Dirk over KG any day.

ewing
02-21-2018, 11:57 AM
Im not sure why you are confused. I didnt say everyone was voting nba live mentality but you can understand my confusion when the majority have agreed previously that Kobe gets as high as he does in most peoples ranking for longevity more than peak and yet in this silly poll he is tenth.

I have read more than post in these threads and there are a fairly limited number of people taking part and campaigning also.

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Other posters are pointing out that guys other then KG have been voted on based on there all around game but you are hanging on the argument based on KG alone. Perhaps not everyone regards KG's all around game as highly as you do

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 12:17 PM
Im not sure why you are confused. I didnt say everyone was voting nba live mentality but you can understand my confusion when the majority have agreed previously that Kobe gets as high as he does in most peoples ranking for longevity more than peak and yet in this silly poll he is tenth.

I have read more than post in these threads and there are a fairly limited number of people taking part and campaigning also.

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I'm confused because by the way you are talking you make it sound like it's a scoring title list when it is definitely not that. Shammy pointing out Walton is an even better example of that then my Duncan post. Bill Walton peak's scoring season was in the 18ppg range. That wouldn't even rank in the top 1000 scoring seasons of all-time but he's a top 15 player of all-time on the list. Clearly there is more being weighted than you are giving credit.

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 12:21 PM
I'm glad West finally gets picked... I've had to wait for the boss (KoB) to vote so I don't throw my vote away and have Wade win.

I would ask that Dirk be placed in the voting options for #17. I'd take playoff Dirk over KG any day.

Agree 100% that Dirk needs to be added now. To be honest I'm disappointed that the debates are dying down. To me this is when the debates finally get good. Peak Oscar vs. Peak KG vs. Peak Wade. vs. Peak Dirk vs. Peak Barkley. I'd hate to see any slip out of the top 20 but someone will.

I'm going to keep voting and making sure these stay alive just so we can see when Bill Russell will actually win the poll. That's going to be interesting too.

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 12:24 PM
Other posters are pointing out that guys other then KG have been voted on based on there all around game but you are hanging on the argument based on KG alone. Perhaps not everyone regards KG's all around game as highly as you do

Where do you see KG landing?

Shammyguy3
02-21-2018, 01:08 PM
Agree 100% that Dirk needs to be added now. To be honest I'm disappointed that the debates are dying down. To me this is when the debates finally get good. Peak Oscar vs. Peak KG vs. Peak Wade. vs. Peak Dirk vs. Peak Barkley. I'd hate to see any slip out of the top 20 but someone will.

I'm going to keep voting and making sure these stay alive just so we can see when Bill Russell will actually win the poll. That's going to be interesting too.

Peak, give me Wade >/= Oscar > Garnett >/= Dirk >/= Barkley


Where do you see KG landing?

I bet he goes #18. Wade will go #17. Oscar #19. Dirk #20. Chuck misses top-20

valade16
02-21-2018, 01:18 PM
Agree 100% that Dirk needs to be added now. To be honest I'm disappointed that the debates are dying down. To me this is when the debates finally get good. Peak Oscar vs. Peak KG vs. Peak Wade. vs. Peak Dirk vs. Peak Barkley. I'd hate to see any slip out of the top 20 but someone will.

I'm going to keep voting and making sure these stay alive just so we can see when Bill Russell will actually win the poll. That's going to be interesting too.

The debate is up and down, I think last one was like 6-7 pages worth of discussion. And there have been 21 votes, which is about as many as we've seen for every selection except the first few. I'm willing to keep posting this until it completely dies out. I'd be really interested if we get down to like Top 50.

YAALREADYKNO
02-21-2018, 02:25 PM
Iíll go with KG here. Basically 22 & 12 & 5 along with his defense is hard to pass up

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 03:17 PM
Agree 100% that Dirk needs to be added now. To be honest I'm disappointed that the debates are dying down. To me this is when the debates finally get good. Peak Oscar vs. Peak KG vs. Peak Wade. vs. Peak Dirk vs. Peak Barkley. I'd hate to see any slip out of the top 20 but someone will.

I'm going to keep voting and making sure these stay alive just so we can see when Bill Russell will actually win the poll. That's going to be interesting too.

Peak, give me Wade >/= Oscar > Garnett >/= Dirk >/= Barkley


Where do you see KG landing?

I bet he goes #18. Wade will go #17. Oscar #19. Dirk #20. Chuck misses top-20

Its funny because I honestly feel like if you listed those in reverse I would be okay with it too. That is how close they are as a group.

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 03:19 PM
Agree 100% that Dirk needs to be added now. To be honest I'm disappointed that the debates are dying down. To me this is when the debates finally get good. Peak Oscar vs. Peak KG vs. Peak Wade. vs. Peak Dirk vs. Peak Barkley. I'd hate to see any slip out of the top 20 but someone will.

I'm going to keep voting and making sure these stay alive just so we can see when Bill Russell will actually win the poll. That's going to be interesting too.

The debate is up and down, I think last one was like 6-7 pages worth of discussion. And there have been 21 votes, which is about as many as we've seen for every selection except the first few. I'm willing to keep posting this until it completely dies out. I'd be really interested if we get down to like Top 50.

Don't just post them. Roll your sleeves up and mix it up. What are you thinking next 3?

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 03:24 PM
null

I almost went KG here so that's where I gotta go next. How he carried those Timberwolves was very Walton-esque so if I was backing Walton at #14 I gotta respect Garnett next.

valade16
02-21-2018, 03:30 PM
Don't just post them. Roll your sleeves up and mix it up. What are you thinking next 3?

Well I've been voting for Wade the past 3 rounds or so, I'm pretty shocked he is falling this far. It seems with him we magnify his weaknesses (injuries, lack of outside shooting) while massively underselling his impact.

After him? I see everyone arguing for KG and possibly Dirk, but I'm wondering about CP3 and Barkley? They were beasts not only in the regular season but also in the playoffs as well. The only knock on them seems to be their lack of team success, which is exactly what this poll is trying to differentiate.

WaDe03
02-21-2018, 03:33 PM
At least I'm getting a good laugh out of all of this.

KnicksorBust
02-21-2018, 03:41 PM
Don't just post them. Roll your sleeves up and mix it up. What are you thinking next 3?

Well I've been voting for Wade the past 3 rounds or so, I'm pretty shocked he is falling this far. It seems with him we magnify his weaknesses (injuries, lack of outside shooting) while massively underselling his impact.

After him? I see everyone arguing for KG and possibly Dirk, but I'm wondering about CP3 and Barkley? They were beasts not only in the regular season but also in the playoffs as well. The only knock on them seems to be their lack of team success, which is exactly what this poll is trying to differentiate.

Just based on skills would you really rather build around Barkley than KG?

valade16
02-21-2018, 03:54 PM
Just based on skills would you really rather build around Barkley than KG?

It's tough, KG could do it all but to me he did not play as well in high pressure situations in the playoffs. His TS% went to AI territories when asked to be the man in the playoffs, whereas Barkley's stayed incredibly efficient.

Maybe if I was convinced KG could anchor my defense and there was a better scoring option, but Barkley gives you relentless energy and hustle, rebounding every bit as good as KG's, superior scoring ability and efficiency (about the only way KG was a better scorer was his 18-20 ft. automatic midrange shot). Peak Charles was also a very adept passer.

I'm leaning Charles just because I'd trust him more, but it's definitely a close argument.

Jamiecballer
02-21-2018, 04:36 PM
Other posters are pointing out that guys other then KG have been voted on based on there all around game but you are hanging on the argument based on KG alone. Perhaps not everyone regards KG's all around game as highly as you doThats not true. I am speaking on that that i am familiar, its not a reflection on any of the other players.

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Jamiecballer
02-21-2018, 04:37 PM
I'm confused because by the way you are talking you make it sound like it's a scoring title list when it is definitely not that. Shammy pointing out Walton is an even better example of that then my Duncan post. Bill Walton peak's scoring season was in the 18ppg range. That wouldn't even rank in the top 1000 scoring seasons of all-time but he's a top 15 player of all-time on the list. Clearly there is more being weighted than you are giving credit.No, with all due respect i think shammy's previous post explained it quite well.

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ewing
02-21-2018, 05:28 PM
Where do you see KG landing?

Not top 20 thatís for sure


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ewing
02-21-2018, 05:44 PM
It's tough, KG could do it all but to me he did not play as well in high pressure situations in the playoffs. His TS% went to AI territories when asked to be the man in the playoffs, whereas Barkley's stayed incredibly efficient.

Maybe if I was convinced KG could anchor my defense and there was a better scoring option, but Barkley gives you relentless energy and hustle, rebounding every bit as good as KG's, superior scoring ability and efficiency (about the only way KG was a better scorer was his 18-20 ft. automatic midrange shot). Peak Charles was also a very adept passer.

I'm leaning Charles just because I'd trust him more, but it's definitely a close argument.

Chuck also created pace a ball handler and KG wasnít a defensive anchor. For most of his career he was a skinny PF. Even in Boston they suffered without a bully next to him. He doesnít belong in the conversation.


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Jamiecballer
02-21-2018, 05:46 PM
Not top 20 thatís for sure


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this is a guy who once averaged 23ppg, 13.4rbp, 6.0apg, 1.4spg and 1.6bpg while also being an incredible defender. if this is supposed about peak how could he not? this list is wacko. although mostly due to 2 players.

ewing
02-21-2018, 05:53 PM
this is a guy who once averaged 23ppg, 13.4rbp, 6.0apg, 1.4spg and 1.6bpg while also being an incredible defender. if this is supposed about peak how could he not? this list is wacko. although mostly due to 2 players.

So Kevin Love averaged 26 and 13. Can we agree that #s alone are not indicative of impact?


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Shammyguy3
02-21-2018, 07:03 PM
So Kevin Love averaged 26 and 13. Can we agree that #s alone are not indicative of impact?


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Is K Love DPOY caliber?

ewing
02-21-2018, 07:16 PM
Is K Love DPOY caliber?

So is that a no?

Shammyguy3
02-22-2018, 01:05 PM
So is that a no?

Its not nearly the same, because you have to factor in other variables. Should we measure everyone on ppg and rpg and call.it a day?

ewing
02-22-2018, 02:42 PM
Its not nearly the same, because you have to factor in other variables. Should we measure everyone on ppg and rpg and call.it a day?

What is this the "i know you are but what am I?" defense? The comment I quoted bolded a stat line and said how can he not be top 20? I gave an example of a guy who was a very good basketball player but whose stats did not line up with his on court impact. Yes he did mention KG's defense and Love was/is not the the defender KG was but the point was that stats are not a stand alone argument and do not always reflect impact.

Jamiecballer
02-22-2018, 04:27 PM
So Kevin Love averaged 26 and 13. Can we agree that #s alone are not indicative of impact?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSure, but you left off the remaining numbers from loves line: 4.4apg (which is a clear outlier since it is couched between 6 consecutive seasons of low 2's), 0.8spg and 0.5bpg and reputation as a turnstile defensively.

Garnett was a great big that could score like a wing and pass like a guard. Until James came along i had seen nothing like him. And his numbers in their entirety reflect that rarity.

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ewing
02-22-2018, 07:31 PM
Sure, but you left off the remaining numbers from loves line: 4.4apg (which is a clear outlier since it is couched between 6 consecutive seasons of low 2's), 0.8spg and 0.5bpg and reputation as a turnstile defensively.

Garnett was a great big that could score like a wing and pass like a guard. Until James came along i had seen nothing like him. And his numbers in their entirety reflect that rarity.

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Those stats are irreverent to my point. individual player stats do not evenly correlate to positive impact on play. Both love and Garnet had somewhat hollow stats imo. I do think this is reflected KG inability to achieve team success during his statistical peak. With regard to your other point I disagree. A lot teams used bigs as passer before KG and a lot of bigs could but pass and score. James was a face up play maker and ball handler from day one. That is what set him apart along with his size and power. KG never had those skills


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Chronz
02-22-2018, 08:13 PM
Not voting kg but I really don't like the idea that kg was at his most productive in Minnesota vs his year and a half of healthy play in Boston.

Shammyguy3
02-22-2018, 08:20 PM
What is this the "i know you are but what am I?" defense? The comment I quoted bolded a stat line and said how can he not be top 20? I gave an example of a guy who was a very good basketball player but whose stats did not line up with his on court impact. Yes he did mention KG's defense and Love was/is not the the defender KG was but the point was that stats are not a stand alone argument and do not always reflect impact.

You are mitigating a players impact to 2 numbers. Two players who are very different on one side of the ball. Your argument is bogus. Thats what.

If i give you 10 stats versus one, you can see the difference in analysis and how that impacts the court. But nope, lets stick with laziness

Chronz
02-22-2018, 08:24 PM
You are mitigating a players impact to 2 numbers. Two players who are very different on one side of the ball. Your argument is bogus. Thats what.

If i give you 10 stats versus one, you can see the difference in analysis and how that impacts the court. But nope, lets stick with laziness

Agreed. Now check his playoff line

ewing
02-22-2018, 10:39 PM
You are mitigating a players impact to 2 numbers. Two players who are very different on one side of the ball. Your argument is bogus. Thats what.

If i give you 10 stats versus one, you can see the difference in analysis and how that impacts the court. But nope, lets stick with laziness

Like I said itís a no


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Shammyguy3
02-22-2018, 11:51 PM
Like I said itís a no


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Mmkay

Jamiecballer
02-23-2018, 11:34 AM
Agreed. Now check his playoff lineBut his playoff numbers reflect exactly what we would expect if we acknowledge that Garnett was an exceptional talent whose weakest skill was scoring in one on one situations. Thats not something i hold against him because its fairly predictable in the playoffs that everyone would look to him. Thats one of those situations where at the time we wanted to believe he had that gear and so the media was hard on him for those playoff losses but he just wasnt a go to scorer, never was.


And if being capable of being a go to scorer was a requirement of this poll well then bill russell will never be called and thats dumb IMO

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Chronz
02-23-2018, 01:03 PM
But his playoff numbers reflect exactly what we would expect if we acknowledge that Garnett was an exceptional talent whose weakest skill was scoring in one on one situations. Thats not something i hold against him because its fairly predictable in the playoffs that everyone would look to him. Thats one of those situations where at the time we wanted to believe he had that gear and so the media was hard on him for those playoff losses but he just wasnt a go to scorer, never was.


And if being capable of being a go to scorer was a requirement of this poll well then bill russell will never be called and thats dumb IMO

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That wasn't his weakness. You're setting up a straw man to lure me in, not right now bud.

Bill Russell elevated his play in the matchups I'm focusing on, can you use a different example cuz I seriously think your misguided as always

ewing
02-23-2018, 02:16 PM
But his playoff numbers reflect exactly what we would expect if we acknowledge that Garnett was an exceptional talent whose weakest skill was scoring in one on one situations. Thats not something i hold against him because its fairly predictable in the playoffs that everyone would look to him. Thats one of those situations where at the time we wanted to believe he had that gear and so the media was hard on him for those playoff losses but he just wasnt a go to scorer, never was.



And if being capable of being a go to scorer was a requirement of this poll well then bill russell will never be called and thats dumb IMO

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Its what I expected of him b/c I knew he was overrated.

Jamiecballer
02-23-2018, 02:43 PM
That wasn't his weakness. You're setting up a straw man to lure me in, not right now bud.

Bill Russell elevated his play in the matchups I'm focusing on, can you use a different example cuz I seriously think your misguided as always

no because if you don't agree there is no point in discussing it because we know where it's going.

Chronz
02-23-2018, 02:47 PM
no because if you don't agree there is no point in discussing it because we know where it's going.
To quitsville.

WaDe03
02-23-2018, 02:53 PM
You ladies are funny!

europagnpilgrim
02-23-2018, 04:15 PM
That wasn't his weakness. You're setting up a straw man to lure me in, not right now bud.

Bill Russell elevated his play in the matchups I'm focusing on, can you use a different example cuz I seriously think your misguided as always


I don't get why people cant wrap their brains around if Russell wanted to score 25+ppg back then he would have done it easily, he went head to head with the most dominant player in nba history and avg 24ppg and they played a volume amount so its not no 7game sample size more like 100, because Russell said it himself that it was needed against Chamberlain, not so much for the other teams since they didn't have a Wilt so he just rebounded like Rodman/Wallace combined played blocked a bunch of shot like Wilt did

the best most dominant players usually always show up when we are speaking of their youth/apex, regardless of the w-l outcome, that's how I rank/judge players

europagnpilgrim
02-23-2018, 04:17 PM
To quitsville.

I have sent many long faces there, church mouses

Jamiecballer
02-23-2018, 04:34 PM
I have sent many long faces there, church mousesIf we can't agree that one on one offense was the weakest part of Garnetts game there's little point in discussing his poor playoff showings in minnesota when he was expected to carry them and did not.

I mean, i get why you think it makes sense to bicker endlessly on something when its clear both parties wont agree because thats sorta been your thing but it seems sorta pointless.

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