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valade16
02-12-2018, 02:15 PM
So we do a ďtop 25 greatest players of all-time listĒ here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille OíNeal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry
12. Moses Malone
13. Tracy McGrady

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 02:26 PM
PSD has failed again. It's a shame.

GREATNESS ONE
02-12-2018, 02:28 PM
:laugh:

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 03:17 PM
Bill Walton.

Anchored a top 5 offense and defense with his Tim Duncan level leadership. League MVP. Finals MVP. His combination of scoring-passing-rebounding-defending outclasses the rest of the competition. This a player who averaged more than 3 blocks per game while averaging less than 3 fouls per game. That is something that Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Shaq were never able to do. He made his teammates better on both ends of the floor with his incredible passing and help defense. His outlet passing is the stuff of legend. Finally in the most important game of the season carried the team on his back with a phenomenal 20-20 game to clinch the NBA finals while dishing out 7 assists and an absurd 8 blocks. Wade may have scored more ppg but Walton more than makes up for it with everything else he brought to the table. Give it to the mountain man.

mightybosstone
02-12-2018, 03:19 PM
:facepalm: Jesus. McGrady? Really?

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 03:22 PM
:facepalm: Jesus. McGrady? Really?

What could Wade do better than him? Unless you wanna auto-pull the "clutch" card it's nothing. Dribble-shoot-pass-defend are all t-mac.

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:30 PM
What could Wade do better than him? Unless you wanna auto-pull the "clutch" card it's nothing. Dribble-shoot-pass-defend are all t-mac.

Are you serious? Wade could dribble better, for sure pass better I have no clue where you came up with that, and actually win. Wades defense is very underrated and he's the GOAT shot blocking guard. TMac could shoot better but that's about it, TMac put up empty numbers and couldn't even get out of the 1st round lol. Wade was getting out of the 1st round his rookie season and winning championships by his 3rd.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:35 PM
Lol can we get west in now

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 03:37 PM
Are you serious? Wade could dribble better, for sure pass better I have no clue where you came up with that, and actually win. Wades defense is very underrated and he's the GOAT shot blocking guard. TMac could shoot better but that's about it, TMac put up empty numbers and couldn't even get out of the 1st round lol. Wade was getting out of the 1st round his rookie season and winning championships by his 3rd.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dwyane+Wade&player_id1_select=Dwyane+Wade&y1=2006&player_id1=wadedw01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Tracy+McGrady&player_id2_select=Tracy+McGrady&y2=2003&player_id2=mcgratr01&idx=players

McGrady = 35.2% usage rate and 8.4% turnover rate
Wade = 32.5% usage rate and 13.2% turnover rate

McGrady handled the ball more and turnover the ball over less and had the better ast/to ratio.
Facts.

mightybosstone
02-12-2018, 03:38 PM
What could Wade do better than him? Unless you wanna auto-pull the "clutch" card it's nothing. Dribble-shoot-pass-defend are all t-mac.

He could actually score efficiently. Look, I loved McGrady as much as the next person, but the thing that McGrady fanboys love to overlook is that the guy was a total chucker his entire career. Take away the 02-03 season, and the second highest TS% of his entire career was 53.2 percent.

For every other inefficient scorer in NBA history, PSD loves to rip on them. Posters regularly rip on Iverson, Zeke and even Westbrook for their inefficiency and poor shot selection. But for some reason, PSD has a blind spot for McGrady. The guy was a total volume scorer. And, yes, he he had great court vision and was a better perimeter shooter. But Wade also knew how to turn down a bad shot. McGrady didn't.

Take away the 02-03 season, and you know what McGrady is? He's a longer, slightly better defensive version of Iverson minus the grit and toughness in the postseason.

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:42 PM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Dwyane+Wade&player_id1_select=Dwyane+Wade&y1=2006&player_id1=wadedw01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Tracy+McGrady&player_id2_select=Tracy+McGrady&y2=2003&player_id2=mcgratr01&idx=players

McGrady = 35.2% usage rate and 8.4% turnover rate
Wade = 32.5% usage rate and 13.2% turnover rate

McGrady handled the ball more and turnover the ball over less and had the better ast/to ratio.
Facts.

TMac was too worried about chucking so you cut down on TOs when your building brick houses as opposed to looking to get your teammates involved like Wade did which led to more wins. Facts.

If you're basing ball handling off of that then you don't have a clue what you're talking about. I'm sure a lot of guys are better than Jamal Crawford in those areas but we all know better (at least I would hope, you never know with PSD).

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:44 PM
Are you serious? Wade could dribble better, for sure pass better I have no clue where you came up with that, and actually win. Wades defense is very underrated and he's the GOAT shot blocking guard. TMac could shoot better but that's about it, TMac put up empty numbers and couldn't even get out of the 1st round lol. Wade was getting out of the 1st round his rookie season and winning championships by his 3rd.

Was rookie wade better than peak wade who couldn't beat the lowly hawks? That's why team success is the exact opposite of what's being argued here.

Wade benefited the most from the rule changes. He was like an insanely compact version of Iverson, and just look at how a 30 year old Iverson had one of his most productive seasons. Wade is obviously greater than AI, he's the closest thing we have seen to emulate a young MJ. But you overrate the **** out of his defense. Who has he ever clamped down, he's always been spared the task of defending the opposing teams best player. Tmac loses in r.1 despite being the best player in the series, as a wade fan you know what that feels like, only tmac did it on both ends. Turned 20ppg all stars into puppies, played center in zone schemes, switched onto whoever got hit in several playoff games, caught NBA coaches attention with his defense against guys outside his position. In today's NBA, he'd be even more of a versatile force.

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:46 PM
He could actually score efficiently. Look, I loved McGrady as much as the next person, but the thing that McGrady fanboys love to overlook is that the guy was a total chucker his entire career. Take away the 02-03 season, and the second highest TS% of his entire career was 53.2 percent.

For every other inefficient scorer in NBA history, PSD loves to rip on them. Posters regularly rip on Iverson, Zeke and even Westbrook for their inefficiency and poor shot selection. But for some reason, PSD has a blind spot for McGrady. The guy was a total volume scorer. And, yes, he he had great court vision and was a better perimeter shooter. But Wade also knew how to turn down a bad shot. McGrady didn't.

Take away the 02-03 season, and you know what McGrady is? He's a longer, slightly better defensive version of Iverson minus the grit and toughness in the postseason.

This. People don't like hearing the truth about TMac or AI. They're very overrated.

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:47 PM
Was rookie wade better than peak wade who couldn't beat the lowly hawks? That's why team success is the exact opposite of what's being argued here.

Wade benefited the most from the rule changes. He was like an insanely compact version of Iverson, and just look at how a 30 year old Iverson had one of his most productive seasons. Wade is obviously greater than AI, he's the closest thing we have seen to emulate a young MJ. But you overrate the **** out of his defense. Who has he ever clamped down, he's always been spared the task of defending the opposing teams best player. Tmac loses in r.1 despite being the best player in the series, as a wade fan you know what that feels like, only tmac did it on both ends. Turned 20ppg all stars into puppies, played center in zone schemes, switched onto whoever got hit in several playoff games, caught NBA coaches attention with his defense against guys outside his position. In today's NBA, he'd be even more of a versatile force.

You lost me when you compared Wade to AI, that's hilarious.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:49 PM
He could actually score efficiently. Look, I loved McGrady as much as the next person, but the thing that McGrady fanboys love to overlook is that the guy was a total chucker his entire career. Take away the 02-03 season, and the second highest TS% of his entire career was 53.2 percent.

For every other inefficient scorer in NBA history, PSD loves to rip on them. Posters regularly rip on Iverson, Zeke and even Westbrook for their inefficiency and poor shot selection. But for some reason, PSD has a blind spot for McGrady. The guy was a total volume scorer. And, yes, he he had great court vision and was a better perimeter shooter. But Wade also knew how to turn down a bad shot. McGrady didn't.

Take away the 02-03 season, and you know what McGrady is? He's a longer, slightly better defensive version of Iverson minus the grit and toughness in the postseason.

Who cares about fan boys, I've always stated he was overrated as a scorer but underrated as an offensive fulcrum due to his microscopic turnover rate. You combine that rare level of production and versatility with his skill, it's easy to see how much more dominant he would be today, if only short-lived.

TS% ignores his overall efficiency. Delve deeper and I might see your point.

Lol Iverson couldn't touch tmacs level of production throughout their careers much less ever dream of posting 03 level output, you're not even trying with your hyperbole at this point.

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:50 PM
Missed shots don't count as turnovers so that definitely helps TMac there.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:52 PM
You lost me when you compared Wade to AI, that's hilarious.
How so. Both started as pgs, both were better off at the 2, both had **** outside shooting mechanics,
both had a slashing mentality and sacrificed their bodies. Only wade is what's adoringly referred to as a shitbrick version of that. Which he is. Laughing isn't an argument millennial, you haven't lived long enough to convince anyone

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:54 PM
Missed shots don't count as turnovers so that definitely helps TMac there.
Precisely the point of the mid range game. Especially in the era where you could actually touch and zone with bigger players.

Wade and Bron weren't very impressive their rookie season tbh, luckily they changed the rules for both of them quickly

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:55 PM
You're stanning for a guy with empty numbers that couldn't get out of the 1st round. You take the empty numbers, I'll take the better more efficient player who could lead his team to a championship.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:56 PM
This. People don't like hearing the truth about TMac or AI. They're very overrated.

Show me a single statistical barometer that would put the 2 on equal footing for whatever arbitrary amount of years you wish.... otherwise just say your booty hurt

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 03:57 PM
Precisely the point of the mid range game. Especially in the era where you could actually touch and zone with bigger players.

Wade and Bron weren't very impressive their rookie season tbh, luckily they changed the rules for both of them quickly

They were very impressive, much better than TMac was.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 03:59 PM
You're stanning for a guy with empty numbers that couldn't get out of the 1st round. You take the empty numbers, I'll take the better more efficient player who could lead his team to a championship.
Nah , the Stan is the guy who avoids the questions raised. I've seen this game too long to ignore teammates. When wade was tasked with carrying trash and losing in r1 (which were his peak years btw), I saw an inferior player on both ends. Disagree all you want but begging Me to count the rings don't work no mo

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:00 PM
They were very impressive, much better than TMac was.
Lol how old was wade anyways? Definitely way behind schedule

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 04:02 PM
Show me a single statistical barometer that would put the 2 on equal footing for whatever arbitrary amount of years you wish.... otherwise just say your booty hurt

They're both chuckers who couldn't get it done (although AI was a much better winner than TMac). Both are overrated because people thought they were "cool".

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:03 PM
Anyways, tmac doesn't touch west. So what's the argument against that guy?

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 04:05 PM
Nah , the Stan is the guy who avoids the questions raised. I've seen this game too long to ignore teammates. When wade was tasked with carrying trash and losing in r1 (which were his peak years btw), I saw an inferior player on both ends. Disagree all you want but begging Me to count the rings don't work no mo

Sorry but if TMac was as good as you think he would be able to win at least 1 round.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:06 PM
They're both chuckers who couldn't get it done (although AI was a much better winner than TMac). Both are overrated because people thought they were "cool".
So nothing but vague emotions? Winners? Lmfao, sure bud, this ain't boxing. Tmac is vastly underrated cuz haters have the delusions to compare his level of production and efficiency to the likes of Iverson. Total half way effort if they're one and the same as alleged chuckers

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:07 PM
Sorry but if TMac was as good as you think he would be able to win at least 1 round.

Why? If that were true then explain why we could see the best player in the league miss the playoffs entirely? This ain't tennis bro

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 04:08 PM
TMac is far from underrated.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:09 PM
TMac is far from underrated.

Totally underrated

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:21 PM
Hmmm did prime Tmac ever lead his team to championship?

Let the Wade hate train roll on...

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:22 PM
Eliminate the variables and compare tmac and wade with relatively equal supporting casts, what is so great about his first round losses that make he and tmac so different? I know the answer but it's because I see a way better player in tmac

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:34 PM
Eliminate the variables and compare tmac and wade with relatively equal supporting casts, what is so great about his first round losses that make he and tmac so different? I know the answer but it's because I see a way better player in tmac

You're talking about a perennial first round loser throughout his career. Embarrassing.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:37 PM
People simply cannot put their personal feelings aside for not liking Wade here. Wade finished in the 20s when he was an option for at least 10 threads in the all-time rankings threads, then the OP stopped making the rankings after Wade was picked. So obvious there's a personal thing against Wade here.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:39 PM
You're talking about a perennial first round loser throughout his career. Embarrassing.

When your peak last that short, how is it embarrassing?

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:41 PM
I voted west and can't even see the voting tally. Put it this way, imagine if all we ever saw of Kobe were his 1st round exits/missing the playoffs. Is he dog **** those years?

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:45 PM
When your peak last that short, how is it embarrassing?

Bro, he basically averaged at least 26 PPG for 5 straight years. Don't give me that crap he never accomplished jack **** in his prime

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:46 PM
I voted west and can't even see the voting tally. Put it this way, imagine if all we ever saw of Kobe were his 1st round exits/missing the playoffs. Is he dog **** those years?

But he didn't though. Kobe won 5 CHAMPIONSHIPS. Can't bring in that hypothetical crap

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:48 PM
But he didn't though. Kobe won 5 CHAMPIONSHIPS. Can't bring in that hypothetical crap
Exactly my point. A 3x champ looked mortal under a certain circumstance, imagine someone in that same circumstance but actually out doing that 3x champ. Your argument holds merit if we're discussing careers, but that ain't this thread bud.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:49 PM
Bro, he basically averaged at least 26 PPG for 5 straight years. Don't give me that crap he never accomplished jack **** in his prime
So? I never said tmac sucked the rest of his career. He just wasn't on that same level of stardom after a certain point and he admits it. It's hard to carry trash forever

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:53 PM
Exactly my point. A 3x champ looked mortal under a certain circumstance, imagine someone in that same circumstance but actually out doing that 3x champ. Your argument holds merit if we're discussing careers, but that ain't this thread bud.

LOL it has to hold some merit in THIS thread. You're telling me prime TMac not making it out of the first round except for one time (lost in 2nd round) doesn't affect his standing in the all-time prime rankings? C'mon now..

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 04:57 PM
So? I never said tmac sucked the rest of his career. He just wasn't on that same level of stardom after a certain point and he admits it. It's hard to carry trash forever

We're not talking about the rest of his career, this is his PRIME. He was very ineffective as for winning in his prime goes, and 2006 PRIME Wade was ridiculous

Chronz
02-12-2018, 05:02 PM
LOL it has to hold some merit in THIS thread. You're telling me prime TMac not making it out of the first round except for one time (lost in 2nd round) doesn't affect his standing in the all-time prime rankings? C'mon now..

He never made it out, not even that year. I'm asking you why would it when we've seen guys on that level do similarly in similar team situations.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 05:03 PM
We're not talking about the rest of his career, this is his PRIME. He was very ineffective as for winning in his prime goes, and 2006 PRIME Wade was ridiculous

Honestly don't even think that was wade at his absolute best and if he's even comparable, which he is, if even that version of wade didn't impress in his first round losses then he doesn't get extra credit for having a way easier time to win games

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 05:21 PM
He never made it out, not even that year. I'm asking you why would it when we've seen guys on that level do similarly in similar team situations.

LMAO go on down the line 4 years he literally did NOT make it out of the first round. He has YAO and other GOOD role players for a bunch of years bro. Don't act like he didn't have help

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 05:23 PM
Honestly don't even think that was wade at his absolute best and if he's even comparable, which he is, if even that version of wade didn't impress in his first round losses then he doesn't get extra credit for having a way easier time to win games

Playoffs 2006 yes he was. Over a volume of 23 games, he was incredible. SHAQ didn't do much

Chronz
02-12-2018, 05:30 PM
LMAO go on down the line 4 years he literally did NOT make it out of the first round. He has YAO and other GOOD role players for a bunch of years bro. Don't act like he didn't have help

He didn't tho.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 05:31 PM
Playoffs 2006 yes he was. Over a volume of 23 games, he was incredible. SHAQ didn't do much
He had way better squads vs the opponent, depends which year when it comes to Shaq. Better than year 1 with Yao that's for sure

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 05:39 PM
He didn't tho.

SO When do you consider TMac's prime?

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 05:41 PM
He had way better squads vs the opponent, depends which year when it comes to Shaq. Better than year 1 with Yao that's for sure

YAO'S prime lasted more than 1 year and he was good in YEAR 1. Not really sure what you're on about. The year in question for Shaq was 2005-06.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 05:44 PM
YAO'S prime lasted more than 1 year and he was good in YEAR 1. Not really sure what you're on about. The year in question for Shaq was 2005-06.


SO When do you consider TMac's prime?
It definitely didn't coincide with tmacs
From about the raptors series to the Mavs series is a rough estimate with variables sprinkled in between. Arguably remained an all nba level player thereafter.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2018, 05:44 PM
tmac has become insanely overrated. i loved tmac. i watched him as a kid and was heartbroken when he left for orlando. i loved his game anyways. then houston. he was the most seductive aesthetically pleasing player i've ever seen on the court. but looking back on his numbers with the same critical standards i would have to apply to the westbrooks and AI's of the world I have to admit he is not nearly as good as i thought when he was one of my heros.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 06:02 PM
It definitely didn't coincide with tmacs
From about the raptors series to the Mavs series is a rough estimate with variables sprinkled in between. Arguably remained an all nba level player thereafter.

Yes, it DID coincide with the exception of 1 or 2 years. Look at the STATS.

Either way he's being way overrated here. Tmac didn't win **** with the Raps

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:10 PM
tmac has become insanely overrated. i loved tmac. i watched him as a kid and was heartbroken when he left for orlando. i loved his game anyways. then houston. he was the most seductive aesthetically pleasing player i've ever seen on the court. but looking back on his numbers with the same critical standards i would have to apply to the westbrooks and AI's of the world I have to admit he is not nearly as good as i thought when he was one of my heros.

Same critical standards or just biased?

valade16
02-12-2018, 06:10 PM
The idea that T-Mac always faced tougher opponents than his team is overblown.

In 2002 the Magic faced the Charlotte Hornets who had Baron Davis and David Wesley. They had the same record as Orlando and a worse SRS (1.25 to 0.57).

In 2005 and 2007 T-Mac played the entire series with Yao Ming, against the Mavs in 05 and the Jazz in 07. T-Mac with Yao couldn't get past Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer?

Keep in mind, both those series came down to Game 7's and in G7 of the Mavs series he scored 27 pts on 10/26 shooting and 1/7 from 3 while Yao was putting up 13/23 for 33 pts.


T-Mac's team can explain some of his struggles in the postseason, but he certainly lost to teams he and his supporting talent were capable of beating.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:11 PM
Yes, it DID coincide with the exception of 1 or 2 years. Look at the STATS.

Either way he's being way overrated here. Tmac didn't win **** with the Raps

What stats? Nah massively underrated

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:20 PM
The idea that T-Mac always faced tougher opponents than his team is overblown.

In 2002 the Magic faced the Charlotte Hornets who had Baron Davis and David Wesley. They had the same record as Orlando and a worse SRS (1.25 to 0.57).

In 2005 and 2007 T-Mac played the entire series with Yao Ming, against the Mavs in 05 and the Jazz in 07. T-Mac with Yao couldn't get past Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer?

Keep in mind, both those series came down to Game 7's and in G7 of the Mavs series he scored 27 pts on 10/26 shooting and 1/7 from 3 while Yao was putting up 13/23 for 33 pts.


T-Mac's team can explain some of his struggles in the postseason, but he certainly lost to teams he and his supporting talent were capable of beating.
Why would they get past a better matchup? Did you even watch these series? Tmac wasn't the guy we're talking about vs the jazz but everyone who saw that series saw that Yao was at a huge disadvantage in his matchup.

Same thing once Dallas went small, you don't remember them just isolating Yao? Deke was often a better option and tmac tore it up on both ends that series. Your stats ignore that Houston had lost its starting pf and had traded their other option in a salary dump, they were starting Ryan Bowen against Dirk ffs. These stats don't exist in a vacuum, Houston had a descending core compared to Dallas, it was a miracle it went 7.

Tmacs teams have always been less talented with the exception being that hornets squad where it was relatively equal. Still don't see wade topping him in similar situations

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:22 PM
Houston was garbage without even a past his prime tmac, for as productive as Yao was, the team could survive without him if it had its offensive fulcrum. Tmac had that impact even in decline.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 06:25 PM
What stats? Nah massively underrated

What stats? Try 3 outta 5 seasons YAO played in the PLAYOFFS with TMAC and they did NOT make it out of the 1ST round.Get outta here with that nonsense. 3 CHIPS speaks for itself bro

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 06:28 PM
Houston was garbage without even a past his prime tmac, for as productive as Yao was, the team could survive without him if it had its offensive fulcrum. Tmac had that impact even in decline.

That's why ARGUABLY in TMAC's best season, Houston got bounced in the 1st round?

valade16
02-12-2018, 06:34 PM
Why would they get past a better matchup? Did you even watch these series? Tmac wasn't the guy we're talking about vs the jazz but everyone who saw that series saw that Yao was at a huge disadvantage in his matchup.

Same thing once Dallas went small, you don't remember them just isolating Yao? Deke was often a better option and tmac tore it up on both ends that series. Your stats ignore that Houston had lost its starting pf and had traded their other option in a salary dump, they were starting Ryan Bowen against Dirk ffs. These stats don't exist in a vacuum, Houston had a descending core compared to Dallas, it was a miracle it went 7.

Tmacs teams have always been less talented with the exception being that hornets squad where it was relatively equal. Still don't see wade topping him in similar situations

Because that's what better players do.

As for the last bolded, why not?

In 2009 and 2010 when Wade was in the same situation as T-Mac (inferior supporting cast and 1st round exits), he put up 31 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG on better scoring efficiency. So in the same position, Wade was putting up virtually identical statistics (you could even argue better).


So if you want to argue T-Mac raised his game in the playoffs even with inferior teammates, so did Wade so how is that a disqualifier for T-Mac?

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:35 PM
What stats? Try 3 outta 5 seasons YAO played in the PLAYOFFS with TMAC and they did NOT make it out of the 1ST round.Get outta here with that nonsense. 3 CHIPS speaks for itself bro

No he didn't. Lol were you too young to remember injuries wrecking the duo? Fake news. Besides, tmac was way different in Houston even he admitted as much


That's why ARGUABLY in TMAC's best season, Houston got bounced in the 1st round?

Correct and that was not a peak Yao either.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:37 PM
Because that's what better players do.

As for the last bolded, why not?

In 2009 and 2010 when Wade was in the same situation as T-Mac (inferior supporting cast and 1st round exits), he put up 31 PPG, 5 RPG, 5 APG on better scoring efficiency. So in the same position, Wade was putting up virtually identical statistics (you could even argue better).


So if you want to argue T-Mac raised his game in the playoffs even with inferior teammates, so did Wade so how is that a disqualifier for T-Mac?
Based on what tho? Why would I care about per game averages devoid of era related context on top of disregarding defensive environments from a league standard. Who did wade lock down really

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 06:41 PM
So sounds to me majority are on the same page, if you want a chucker and loser you take TMac and if you want a winner take Wade. Somehow TMac was voted ahead lol!

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:41 PM
We'll ignore wade losing to Chicago since he was so hurt but it's important to note tmac was similarly banged up in other series as well. All in all they're pretty equal statistically, I just think tmac was way better defensively and playing in a tougher environment

Chronz
02-12-2018, 06:43 PM
So sounds to me majority are on the same page, if you want a chucker and loser you take TMac and if you want a winner take Wade. Somehow TMac was voted ahead lol!
Tmac never had wades supporting cast. All I see. I saw peak wade lose in r1 putting up less of a fight.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 06:52 PM
Tmac never had wades supporting cast. All I see. I saw peak wade lose in r1 putting up less of a fight.

LOL this guy believes 2008-09 Wade was his PRIME.HIS prime was 05-06 and you're trying to compare him to TMAC's best year when TMAC never made it out the 1ST ROUND

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 06:53 PM
We'll ignore wade losing to Chicago since he was so hurt but it's important to note tmac was similarly banged up in other series as well. All in all they're pretty equal statistically, I just think tmac was way better defensively and playing in a tougher environment

Equal statistically while Wade has 3 RINGS. Hmmmm

IKnowHoops
02-12-2018, 07:04 PM
You guys already f-ed up. Peak Admiral beats half these kids

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 07:05 PM
You guys already f-ed up. Peak Admiral beats half these kids

No.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2018, 07:06 PM
Same critical standards or just biased?Do you even understand what you are saying

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Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:07 PM
LOL this guy believes 2008-09 Wade was his PRIME.HIS prime was 05-06 and you're trying to compare him to TMAC's best year when TMAC never made it out the 1ST ROUND
Lots believe that was peak wade, the point remains its comparable in stature, far more than post knee/back/ shoulder injury version of tmac in Houston that's for sure

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:09 PM
Do you even understand what you are saying

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That your critical eye is short sighted

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:11 PM
Tmac and wade shouldn't even be mentioned yet tbh

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:12 PM
Oh ok. Then which do i have wrong. Is it that Iverson is way better than i thought, or Tmac is way worse, because it cant be both.

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Sure it can, check out the difference in efficiency and production

Jamiecballer
02-12-2018, 07:12 PM
That your critical eye is short sightedOh ok. Then which do i have wrong. Is it that Iverson is way better than i thought, or Tmac is way worse, because it cant be both.

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valade16
02-12-2018, 07:16 PM
Based on what tho? Why would I care about per game averages devoid of era related context on top of disregarding defensive environments from a league standard. Who did wade lock down really

Because even when you do per 100 possessions Wade still looks as good.

T-Mac 01-08: 37.9 pts, 8.8 reb, 8.3 ast, 1.8 stl, 1.4 blck, 4.1 TO .519 TS%
Wade 09-10: 41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

As for who did Wade lock down, who did T-Mac? T-Mac definitely didn't try to play much defense for large stretches, but even the idea that he could "turn it on" based on a series or two when he was a good mismatch for Dirk isn't going to convince me.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:18 PM
Because even when you do per 100 possessions Wade still looks as good.

T-Mac 01-08: 37.9 pts, 8.8 reb, 8.3 ast, 1.8 stl, 1.4 blck, 4.1 TO .519 TS%
Wade 09-10: 41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

As for who did Wade lock down, who did T-Mac? T-Mac definitely didn't try to play much defense for large stretches, but even the idea that he could "turn it on" based on a series or two when he was a good mismatch for Dirk isn't going to convince me.

That still ignores league averages and focusing on peak tmac is better than overall prime run, dudes career was totally derailed by numerous injuries, at least wade had a few more years since he came in physically matured.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2018, 07:19 PM
Sure it can, check out the difference in efficiency and productionBelieve me i have. If you'd asked me where tmac stood 2 weeks ago i would have ranked him plenty higher than i do today.

If you want to prove why tmac is superior to iverson you point to all the things he was better at... not efficiency and production because the difference there isnt much at all

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valade16
02-12-2018, 07:21 PM
Sure it can, check out the difference in efficiency and production

From 99-03 AI's TO% was 10.8%. T-Mac's from 01-07 was 9.1%. AI's AST% was 24.6 during that span, T-Mac's was 27.3%.

T-Mac was more efficient than AI, but not markedly so. If we assume that T-Mac would get a boost efficiency-wise in the current era, why don't we assume the same of AI?

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:21 PM
Believe me i have. If you'd asked me where tmac stood 2 weeks ago i would have ranked him plenty higher than i do today.

If you want to prove why tmac is superior to iverson you point to all the things he was better at... not efficiency and production because the difference there isnt much at all

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I've never seen a single statistical barometer to back that assertion, certainly not throughout their peak days. Hopefully I can get behind a key board but all I can say it's much more of an argument than you guys think and that I firmly believe tmac would have benefited from the rule changes and superior teammates in his athletic prime.

Again tho, this should have been west then Walton then it get interesting

HandsOnTheWheel
02-12-2018, 07:23 PM
Lots believe that was peak wade, the point remains its comparable in stature, far more than post knee/back/ shoulder injury version of tmac in Houston that's for sure

How is that comparable when WADE brought his team a CHIP, and TMac did NOT? It's pretty simple bro

valade16
02-12-2018, 07:24 PM
That still ignores league averages and focusing on peak tmac is better than overall prime run, dudes career was totally derailed by numerous injuries, at least wade had a few more years since he came in physically matured.

OK, even using 02-05 (the playoff numbers most favorable to T-Mac), you get:

38.9 pts, 8.6 reb, 7.1 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.6 blck, 4.5 TO, .557 TS%
41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

Wade still scored more and scored more efficiently. I agree, era definitely affected that, but if you account for era are you saying T-Mac would do better than Wade did (i.e. above .600 TS%) or that Wade would do worse than T-Mac did (below .557)? Because I highly doubt T-Mac tops .600 in any era, his play was just not that conducive to that level of efficiency.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:25 PM
From 99-03 AI's TO% was 10.8%. T-Mac's from 01-07 was 9.1%. AI's AST% was 24.6 during that span, T-Mac's was 27.3%.

T-Mac was more efficient than AI, but not markedly so. If we assume that T-Mac would get a boost efficiency-wise in the current era, why don't we assume the same of AI?

We saw it from ai remember. Dude still had some quicks and he enjoyed something of a resurgence much like many perimeter stars and no **** he would've gotten more of a boost in his athletic prime. The reasons people disliked Iverson then are less of an issue in an era with simplified roles. But tmac was far more productive on both ends and at his apex was locking down come playoffs.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 07:48 PM
OK, even using 02-05 (the playoff numbers most favorable to T-Mac), you get:

38.9 pts, 8.6 reb, 7.1 ast, 1.9 stl, 1.6 blck, 4.5 TO, .557 TS%
41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

Wade still scored more and scored more efficiently. I agree, era definitely affected that, but if you account for era are you saying T-Mac would do better than Wade did (i.e. above .600 TS%) or that Wade would do worse than T-Mac did (below .557)? Because I highly doubt T-Mac tops .600 in any era, his play was just not that conducive to that level of efficiency.
You're still not posting their ortg but to answer the q, it's not just era but the strength of the teams they faced. Like those Detroit pistons were unkind to perimeter players, once they finished with tmac they did much the same to Iverson in the next round. Tmacs squads were severely undermanned vs the Mavs and tmac giving Dirk fits should not be discounted, he completely outplayed Dirk despite the loss. Wade taking on and losing to Joe Johnson and horford is understandable but not exactly defensively imposing if you know what I mean.

His 5 game series vs Boston is far more impressive given their reputation defensively, much more becoming of a hero in defeat but the Celtics weren't pushed to the brink imo, both faced +50 win squads but I just think tmac should get the nod for his 2 way ability. Still that game wade had to stave off a sweep was prolly greater than most games I've seen from over matched stars.

Still, check out their offensive rtg vs those teams.

Wade vs atl/boston
113 o rtg (112/114 respectively)

Tmac vs detroit/Dallas
112 (110/114 respectively)

So yeah wade was more efficient but it was by a hair, both had a 27 PER. Very close debate, I just think tmac had it harder and was better on both ends and as I've said before, gimme the more skilled player if it's close statistically. Iverson don't come close in this debate that's for sure

europagnpilgrim
02-12-2018, 09:09 PM
How is that comparable when WADE brought his team a CHIP, and TMac did NOT? It's pretty simple bro

This is what I mean by the ring thing, Wade was at best a 2nd round team, then they acquired a aged but still 20/10 guy in Shaq and it took a damn near 70 win team to almost go up 3-0 to blow it and the 'Heat' won the Chamion-SHIP, Chips are where the casinos are and grocery/corner stores if you are hungry

had Yao not got hurt TMac may have a Finals trip or 2, not saying he would have won the title but it sure does help like hell to be one of the last two teams fighting for that crown

so no its not that simple, had Riley stayed ''pat'' and not trading Butler/Odom then they would have been a team that could pull off a 1st round exit and be out in the 2nd round

TMac never had a title type team to lean on and when he finally sort of did in Houston then the Yao injuries happened, as well as TMac dealing with his own

if you want to base it off SHIPS then Iverson is on a whole other level for taking Snow(seniority, 1 finals in 7yrs with AI) or aged Mutombo as his sidekick to a Finals while a tandem of KD/Westbrook went 1x in 8yrs and both lost and we all know a KD/Westbrook combo is way more lethal on the court and on way way more on paper

I really wish Sixers weren't such a dumb org. and would have paired AI/TMac so we could all be sitting here talking about how many ECF/Finals that duo went to from 99-07, it would have been a scary sight for that weak East, that's for damn sure and certain

europagnpilgrim
02-12-2018, 09:15 PM
We saw it from ai remember. Dude still had some quicks and he enjoyed something of a resurgence much like many perimeter stars and no **** he would've gotten more of a boost in his athletic prime. The reasons people disliked Iverson then are less of an issue in an era with simplified roles. But tmac was far more productive on both ends and at his apex was locking down come playoffs.

picking between AI and TMAC is only a height thing, even TMAC will tell you that his damn self, you pretty much take the taller guy, if you switched heights you would easily take Iverson, and to me Iverson was more of a killer, smell blood type of guy, at that height he would have been Lebron before Lebron

Iverson is like a mini me version of Shaq, even Diesel said it himself, his words

TMac was like a Lebron/G Hill with a better pure natural shot and slightly less overall impact(more so to Bron than Hill), you cant go wrong with either but the bigger guy will always pretty much win if both have similar traits and ability, but the thing is we are comparing a midget to a giant in a giant mans game,especially at that time of era

Lil Dipper is who I would still draft over TMac and I admire both players game/style

Lil Dipper Is one of only a handful of small guys that you can actually compare to the legendary 6'8'' and up players because they play bigger than their actual size/height, you cant do that with Stockton/Nash and other lesser type players, only Tiny/Zeke/CP3/C Jackson/Wade and maybe R Strickland(underrated horribly), and for good ole measure, M Bogues(jk) but he was a beast for his size as was E Boykins but they are not on those other 4-6 small guy guards list level, Price gets a honorable mention as well, to me Price was Nash without the MVP's, Price could shoot with the best of'em, in any era

the little giants of the game are underrated horribly, every top ten greatest list doesn't have not one but others who have played the game put them on a different level than the media does, which is fine because I tend to listen to the actual player, makes it easier since I am a actual player and can see easily who impacts the game and who you would go pay and see play or looking forward to seeing play, those are the best/most dominant players, that's their role, to dominant from stats to jersey to ticket sales and hopefully a lot of wins if the team is constructed right for a title run, but that doesn't sway me to think Wade was better than TMac because of a ring, or any other player for that matter, P Pierce has a ring and many would say Baylor was better player, rings are for media folly and clutter, players play and showcase the talent regardless and that's how you truly rank a player

tredigs
02-12-2018, 09:25 PM
This is what I mean by the ring thing, Wade was at best a 2nd round team, then they acquired a aged but still 20/10 guy in Shaq and it took a damn near 70 win team to almost go up 3-0 to blow it and the 'Heat' won the Chamion-SHIP, Chips are where the casinos are and grocery/corner stores if you are hungry

had Yao not got hurt TMac may have a Finals trip or 2, not saying he would have won the title but it sure does help like hell to be one of the last two teams fighting for that crown

so no its not that simple, had Riley stayed ''pat'' and not trading Butler/Odom then they would have been a team that could pull off a 1st round exit and be out in the 2nd round

TMac never had a title type team to lean on and when he finally sort of did in Houston then the Yao injuries happened, as well as TMac dealing with his own

if you want to base it off SHIPS then Iverson is on a whole other level for taking Snow(seniority, 1 finals in 7yrs with AI) or aged Mutombo as his sidekick to a Finals while a tandem of KD/Westbrook went 1x in 8yrs and both lost and we all know a KD/Westbrook combo is way more lethal on the court and on way way more on paper

I really wish Sixers weren't such a dumb org. and would have paired AI/TMac so we could all be sitting here talking about how many ECF/Finals that duo went to from 99-07, it would have been a scary sight for that weak East, that's for damn sure and certain
In AI's championship run (that they can thank Mutombo and their defense for more so than AI), they beat a .500 Pacers team (still lost a game), a 47 win Raptors team (in 7), and (now we're on to the teams that would actually MAKE the Western Conference playoffs...) a 52 win Bucks team in the ECF's (AI shot 34% from the field but they won due to their D despite his woes). They were then absolutely torched in the Finals once they faced the West. And that's his hallmark achievement. Sorry, he's no GOAT buddy. He should join the list around the 40-60 range if we're still going.

tredigs
02-12-2018, 09:35 PM
As for this list, 77 Walton.

europagnpilgrim
02-12-2018, 09:39 PM
In AI's championship run (that they can thank Mutombo and their defense for more so than AI), they beat a .500 Pacers team (still lost a game), a 47 win Raptors team (in 7), and (now we're on to the teams that would actually MAKE the Western Conference playoffs...) a 52 win Bucks team in the ECF's (AI shot 34% from the field but they won due to their D despite his woes). They were then absolutely torched in the Finals once they faced the West. And that's his hallmark achievement. Sorry, he's no GOAT buddy. He should join the list around the 40-60 range if we're still going.

They were a better structure team before Mutombo with Ratliff who was a athletic rim runner and shot blocker who fit like a glove with AI, you are kidding yourself talking about AI needs to thank that defense and ignore the other side and not tell Mutombo and those 6ppg scorers to thank Iverson for shooting willingly to cover their non scoring abilities, you had more post moves than Mutombo and I bet you could outshoot Snow from the elbow with your eyes closed, that Pacers team just came off a Finals trip so its their fault they were barely 500. not AI's, and they lost the game against Pacers because Iverson had a ''off offensive'' game, keyword '''OFFENSE''', see how much they depend on AI scoring? or it basketball all defense for 48minutes for both teams?

Raptors series came down once again between franchise players in Carter vs Iverson, Carter went for 50pts one game, Iverson did it twice that series, so does the Sixers owe Iverson for carrying the load or is it just only defense carried Iverson? the media GOAT ''JORDAN'' and Iverson are the only players to drop 50 or more twice in a playoff series, imagine that the Lil Dipper is in the same breath as the media whore GOAT, JORDAN

Once again on paper Milwaukee had a true legit big 3 and possible 4 with super sub T Thomas(another wasted pick by philly prior), Iverson missed a game that series as well because he could barely walk and was hurt/injured but we should just ignore that and say he shot 34pct for the series but in game 7 when the chips are all on the table he drops 44pts, meaning he is clutch and carried the entire offense right?

no his hallmark achievement is doing it with Mckie and Snow as his 2nd and 3rd options, and if it makes you feel better you can swap one of those for Mutombo, and if Iverson is 40-60 range where does Mckie and Snow rank? between 800-2000? just want to clear this up because its nothing you can really do but what he did with that team, go from 18 wins and max out at 56 from 98-2004 with 6ppg career scorers, that is amazing once you truly wrap your brain around it

this is what I don't get, Lebron James was basically Iverson his first 7yrs in Cleveland, 1 finals trip that was a shocker to get there and maxed out winning 60 games back to back and had to relocate to finally reach more Finals, except AI did the stupid thing of showing loyalty and he flamed out, Lebron said in 3yrs I don't want to have bad knees, meaning he didn't want to carry the load like that no more, AI did the same thing and gets killed for it

Lebron use to dribble dribble dribble and either shot or look for a shooter, and years later he is doing the same thing but played with a better roster since the 11' season and has the Finals to show for it, but had he stayed pat in Cleveland he wouldn't have went to 7 straight Finals and would still be a ringless beast, now he is just a beast with 3 rings, rings don't change a players game/impact, the players do, solo acts in a team sport, that's all it is and all it ever will be no matter how they try and brainwash you to think different

If any one can think of a weaker second option in Finals nba history post it on here ASAP

choose one, Mckie or Snow to team with Iverson

and go through the past Finals of duos and I bet its the weakest ever or at worst 2nd, just remember this past Finals we had Irving/Bron vs KD/Curry(could swap Klay to show you how strong that cast is)

Iverson/Snow, they really made a finals trip? Snow and his 6ppg career

you guys are overrating defensive only players and forgetting that its a 2 side game, and Iverson led the league in scoring and steals with that defense around him, so he did his part, roaming the perimeter causing havoc, gambling just as a shot blocker gambles for a block from the weak side, Rodman gambled a lot for those rebounds, Stockton gambled a lot looking for that right pass to rack up an assist, so what big deal

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 09:39 PM
That still ignores league averages and focusing on peak tmac is better than overall prime run, dudes career was totally derailed by numerous injuries, at least wade had a few more years since he came in physically matured.

Wades career was derailed too and he still managed to be a top 20 player ever. Wades best season probably would've been 06-07

tredigs
02-12-2018, 09:47 PM
They were a better structure team before Mutombo with Ratliff who was a athletic rim runner and shot blocker who fit like a glove with AI, you are kidding yourself talking about AI needs to thank that defense and ignore the other side and not tell Mutombo and those 6ppg scorers to thank Iverson for shooting willingly to cover their non scoring abilities, you had more post moves than Mutombo and I bet you could outshoot Snow from the elbow with your eyes closed, that Pacers team just came off a Finals trip so its their fault they were barely 500. not AI's, and they lost the game against Pacers because Iverson had a ''off offensive'' game, keyword '''OFFENSE''', see how much they depend on AI scoring? or it basketball all defense for 48minutes for both teams?

Raptors series came down once again between franchise players in Carter vs Iverson, Carter went for 50pts one game, Iverson did it twice that series, so does the Sixers owe Iverson for carrying the load or is it just only defense carried Iverson? the media GOAT ''JORDAN'' and Iverson are the only players to drop 50 or more twice in a playoff series, imagine that the Lil Dipper is in the same breath as the media whore GOAT, JORDAN

Once again on paper Milwaukee had a true legit big 3 and possible 4 with super sub T Thomas(another wasted pick by philly prior), Iverson missed a game that series as well because he could barely walk and was hurt/injured but we should just ignore that and say he shot 34pct for the series but in game 7 when the chips are all on the table he drops 44pts, meaning he is clutch and carried the entire offense right?

no his hallmark achievement is doing it with Mckie and Snow as his 2nd and 3rd options, and if it makes you feel better you can swap one of those for Mutombo, and if Iverson is 40-60 range where does Mckie and Snow rank? between 800-2000? just want to clear this up because its nothing you can really do but what he did with that team, go from 18 wins and max out at 56 from 98-2004 with 6ppg career scorers, that is amazing once you truly wrap your brain around it

If you shoot the ball 30 times a game (34 and 39 times in his big scoring nights), you're going to put up some points. Their D held the Raps to 92 and 88 points in those games. Yes, they needed AI's scoring, but any number of players could chuck up 30-40 shots a game and get them buckets. They ultimately moved on because they had a fantastic defense anchored by the DPOY/All-Star Mutombo. Your hilarious analysis of the Bucks aside, no, they were not an impressive Conference Finals team in the least. And AI was absolute dog-**** in being carried to victory again by their defense.

europagnpilgrim
02-12-2018, 09:48 PM
You're still not posting their ortg but to answer the q, it's not just era but the strength of the teams they faced. Like those Detroit pistons were unkind to perimeter players, once they finished with tmac they did much the same to Iverson in the next round. Tmacs squads were severely undermanned vs the Mavs and tmac giving Dirk fits should not be discounted, he completely outplayed Dirk despite the loss. Wade taking on and losing to Joe Johnson and horford is understandable but not exactly defensively imposing if you know what I mean.

His 5 game series vs Boston is far more impressive given their reputation defensively, much more becoming of a hero in defeat but the Celtics weren't pushed to the brink imo, both faced +50 win squads but I just think tmac should get the nod for his 2 way ability. Still that game wade had to stave off a sweep was prolly greater than most games I've seen from over matched stars.

Still, check out their offensive rtg vs those teams.

Wade vs atl/boston
113 o rtg (112/114 respectively)

Tmac vs detroit/Dallas
112 (110/114 respectively)

So yeah wade was more efficient but it was by a hair, both had a 27 PER. Very close debate, I just think tmac had it harder and was better on both ends and as I've said before, gimme the more skilled player if it's close statistically. Iverson don't come close in this debate that's for sure

Iverson destroyed that Detroit team individually, its a reason why Daly said he was a top 10 player all time when he went for damn near 40 and 10+ for one of those series

you are right Iverson doesn't come close because he never blew a 3-1 lead and TMac never got praised by Daly after losing by saying he was a top 10 player like he did for Iverson

so you are right Iverson doesn't come down close enough, he is too far up, more so over TMac than Wade, Wade was basically a bigger version of Iverson without the natural shooting of Iverson

valade16
02-12-2018, 09:53 PM
In AI's championship run (that they can thank Mutombo and their defense for more so than AI), they beat a .500 Pacers team (still lost a game), a 47 win Raptors team (in 7), and (now we're on to the teams that would actually MAKE the Western Conference playoffs...) a 52 win Bucks team in the ECF's (AI shot 34% from the field but they won due to their D despite his woes). They were then absolutely torched in the Finals once they faced the West And that's his hallmark achievement. Sorry, he's no GOAT buddy. He should join the list around the 40-60 range if we're still going.

While I agree with the premise of your list, the 76ers were actually the only team in the playoffs to beat the Lakers that year, so they were torched less than any other West team. But yes, that 76ers team was among the worst finals team ever.

tredigs
02-12-2018, 10:00 PM
While I agree with the premise of your list, the 76ers were actually the only team in the playoffs to beat the Lakers that year, so they were torched less than any other West team. But yes, that 76ers team was among the worst finals team ever.
Kobe and the Lakers backcourt got shut down in the first game by their D and they caught them before getting backdoor swept, but there was never another outcome in that series. They definitely got torched. The 01 Kings and 01 Spurs would've done the same to Philly mind you. That was a garbage, garbage conference that year that they made it to the Finals in.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 10:02 PM
As for this list, 77 Walton.

What's not to love about west 65 thru 70

europagnpilgrim
02-12-2018, 10:16 PM
If you shoot the ball 30 times a game (34 and 39 times in his big scoring nights), you're going to put up some points. Their D held the Raps to 92 and 88 points in those games. Yes, they needed AI's scoring, but any number of players could chuck up 30-40 shots a game and get them buckets. They ultimately moved on because they had a fantastic defense anchored by the DPOY/All-Star Mutombo. Your hilarious analysis of the Bucks aside, no, they were not an impressive Conference Finals team in the least. And AI was absolute dog-**** in being carried to victory again by their defense.

See you finally admitted it, way to be a good debater and admit when you clearly see the fault

you keep mentioning his shot attempts and it adds to what I keep saying on here, he had to shoot 30+ times a game and had to play Wilt like minutes(he is the Lil Dipper for a reason) and still led the league in steals 3 straight years, what would you expect a player to do on defense when he is asked to shoot 30+ times a game and play 46-48 minutes out of 48minutes?

if Mutombo was Shaq and Mckie was TMac or if Snow was R Allen do you think in your right frame of mind Iverson would have been asked to shoot 30+ times? If your answer is yes then don't ever reply back to me about basketball, lets talk WWE instead if you are this lost

and no not any number of players can carry a load for 7yrs like AI did, are you kidding yourself? he carried with a purpose not because he froze out players, he didn't freeze out allstars, he picked up and shoot more for gleaguers(scoring wise)

Mutumbo was pushing 38yrs of age or so when he got there for his 1 1/2yr tenure with AI, so much for trying to build something right

on top of no stability you had a ****** GM, a stubborn defense only minded HOF coach(which makes it worse because he is HOF material so his way or highway) and 6ppg scorers for 7yrs, if you cant see that then I don't know what to tell you, other than take up another sport to watch and dissect

on paper the Bucks were better with Glenn/Cassell/Allen and 6th man candidate who was better than Mckie who actually won it, imagine that

if Sixers carried AI that Bucks series then did they win the game he sat out injured? why did they lose the final 5 games of 01' season when AI sat out to heal up for playoffs? that team would have won 60 games had he played those 5 final games, that would have even been more amazing to win 60 games with 6ppg scorers, its why Lebron was being praised his first round with Cavs, he had them winning 60 games with Drew Gooden as 2nd best player or Big Z or Boobie/Hughes, what more do you want Lebron to do after being drafted by a 20 win team? he couldn't do nothing more but to leave and try and get on a better team, congrats to Lebron and maybe he learned from his idol Iverson not to burn out your peak/prime years with gleaguers

tredigs
02-12-2018, 10:18 PM
What's not to love about west 65 thru 70

He has a case and so do quite a few others here ('03 to '05 KG is due and DRob + Russell need to get more love soon as well) . I love Walton that season though (and into next year before his foot finally gave way). A player with no weaknesses and incredible attributes (playmaking + rebounding + defense notably). Every time I watch a peak Walton game I'm overwhelmed by his BBIQ and overall dominance on the floor. Unlike most he clearly never looked for the stats but would get them regardless. More importantly, he was the fulcrum of a truly dominant team and was the best player on the floor in series against guys like prime David Thompson and Kareem. I'm taking that guy over the best of West (who I like a ton).

europagnpilgrim
02-12-2018, 10:23 PM
Kobe and the Lakers backcourt got shut down in the first game by their D and they caught them before getting backdoor swept, but there was never another outcome in that series. They definitely got torched. The 01 Kings and 01 Spurs would've done the same to Philly mind you. That was a garbage, garbage conference that year that they made it to the Finals in.

With a garbage support cast, take Iverson off and that Philly team is garbage, put him on there in that time and they have a punchers chance, give him another all star or two in that era and its multiple Finals trips, don't know if they would win but they would have gotten there to try at least 3 times

so the east was garbage and take Iverson off and that Sixers team doesn't make the playoffs and if they do it would be as a 8th seed on the last day of the season

its a reason why I said they didn't draft right because of they would have they would have been the OKC earlier version of the 00's but more successful because of the weak East,the West was tougher for OKC but they still had the horses to chase for it and that's 80pct of the battle, the rest is coaching/adjustments

tredigs
02-12-2018, 10:25 PM
See you finally admitted it, way to be a good debater and admit when you clearly see the fault

you keep mentioning his shot attempts and it adds to what I keep saying on here, he had to shoot 30+ times a game and had to play Wilt like minutes(he is the Lil Dipper for a reason) and still led the league in steals 3 straight years, what would you expect a player to do on defense when he is asked to shoot 30+ times a game and play 46-48 minutes out of 48minutes?

if Mutombo was Shaq and Mckie was TMac or if Snow was R Allen do you think in your right frame of mind Iverson would have been asked to shoot 30+ times? If your answer is yes then don't ever reply back to me about basketball, lets talk WWE instead if you are this lost

and no not any number of players can carry a load for 7yrs like AI did, are you kidding yourself? he carried with a purpose not because he froze out players, he didn't freeze out allstars, he picked up and shoot more for gleaguers(scoring wise)

Mutumbo was pushing 38yrs of age or so when he got there for his 1 1/2yr tenure with AI, so much for trying to build something right

on top of no stability you had a ****** GM, a stubborn defense only minded HOF coach(which makes it worse because he is HOF material so his way or highway) and 6ppg scorers for 7yrs, if you cant see that then I don't know what to tell you, other than take up another sport to watch and dissect

on paper the Bucks were better with Glenn/Cassell/Allen and 6th man candidate who was better than Mckie who actually won it, imagine that

if Sixers carried AI that Bucks series then did they win the game he sat out injured? why did they lose the final 5 games of 01' season when AI sat out to heal up for playoffs? that team would have won 60 games had he played those 5 final games, that would have even been more amazing to win 60 games with 6ppg scorers, its why Lebron was being praised his first round with Cavs, he had them winning 60 games with Drew Gooden as 2nd best player or Big Z or Boobie/Hughes, what more do you want Lebron to do after being drafted by a 20 win team? he couldn't do nothing more but to leave and try and get on a better team, congrats to Lebron and maybe he learned from his idol Iverson not to burn out your peak/prime years with gleaguers

I like your posts, they're fun. A bit exhausting though. Having some wine and focusing on my NBA bets for the night now. I'll get back to this more tomorrow. I'm pretty sure Mutombo was in his early to mid 30's on the Sixers btw (just skimming through seeing 38? Don't have those pages up now but no I doubt that). I don't think AI was a nobody. But what he did offensively for that elite D in that horrible conference can be replicated by a number of players. There's no merit badges for being a midget. All is equal when we're talking GOAT's. And to me he's simply objectively not one of them. Again though I can dive a little deeper tomorrow. On to tonight --->

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 10:32 PM
Bill Walton.

Anchored a top 5 offense and defense with his Tim Duncan level leadership. League MVP. Finals MVP. His combination of scoring-passing-rebounding-defending outclasses the rest of the competition. This a player who averaged more than 3 blocks per game while averaging less than 3 fouls per game. That is something that Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Shaq were never able to do. He made his teammates better on both ends of the floor with his incredible passing and help defense. His outlet passing is the stuff of legend. Finally in the most important game of the season carried the team on his back with a phenomenal 20-20 game to clinch the NBA finals while dishing out 7 assists and an absurd 8 blocks. Wade may have scored more ppg but Walton more than makes up for it with everything else he brought to the table. Give it to the mountain man.

Good post.

tredigs
02-12-2018, 10:34 PM
Good post.

Lol. Had not read this (or most of the thread) but agreed.

Redrum187
02-12-2018, 11:15 PM
Wow... I regret not getting on sooner... How in the ***k is McGrady's peak higher than Durant's? Look, I dislike that p***y @** b**** as much as the next non-Golden State fanboy, but his peak is noticeably better than McGrady's. Good lord...

Redrum187
02-12-2018, 11:19 PM
My vote would be for Jerry West, but since no one gives a ***t about old white guards, I have to be strategic and vote for Bill Walton. The dude barely had a peak... but if we are basing it off one season, then I give him the nod over Wade... Get real refs who didn't have money on the game in 2006 NBA Finals, and Dirk would be the undisputed 2nd greatest PF of all time and Wade would have 1 less ring and 0 FMVPs.

Redrum187
02-12-2018, 11:21 PM
By the way, Wade is an overrated piece of ***t, but he is better than McGrady too...

Chronz
02-12-2018, 11:27 PM
Iverson destroyed that Detroit team individually, its a reason why Daly said he was a top 10 player all time when he went for damn near 40 and 10+ for one of those series

you are right Iverson doesn't come close because he never blew a 3-1 lead and TMac never got praised by Daly after losing by saying he was a top 10 player like he did for Iverson

so you are right Iverson doesn't come down close enough, he is too far up, more so over TMac than Wade, Wade was basically a bigger version of Iverson without the natural shooting of Iverson
Nah AI got shut down, played far worse and got his team to less wins. Daly wasn't around to watch the massacre

Ebbs
02-12-2018, 11:35 PM
McGrady :laugh:

Duncan over Garnett in a peak scenario?!?

This list is ***.

tredigs
02-12-2018, 11:40 PM
McGrady :laugh:

Duncan over Garnett in a peak scenario?!?

This list is ***.
McGrady was random and weird given that he never made a conference Finals and to me never demanded/taught dominance concerning his teammates (integral to GOAT players IMO), but '03 Duncan > anything Garnett. Yes. And clearly.

ewing
02-13-2018, 12:23 AM
can i change my vote to Tredigs?

IKnowHoops
02-13-2018, 02:11 AM
Tmac and wade shouldn't even be mentioned yet tbh

Finally someone said it.

IKnowHoops
02-13-2018, 02:14 AM
Because even when you do per 100 possessions Wade still looks as good.

T-Mac 01-08: 37.9 pts, 8.8 reb, 8.3 ast, 1.8 stl, 1.4 blck, 4.1 TO .519 TS%
Wade 09-10: 41.6 pts, 7.1 reb, 8.0 ast, 1.6 stl, 2.1 blck, 5.7 TO .600 TS%

As for who did Wade lock down, who did T-Mac? T-Mac definitely didn't try to play much defense for large stretches, but even the idea that he could "turn it on" based on a series or two when he was a good mismatch for Dirk isn't going to convince me.

Can you put Drobs 93-94 season up next to this filth to at least put all Dolphins fans on notice?

IKnowHoops
02-13-2018, 02:19 AM
In AI's championship run (that they can thank Mutombo and their defense for more so than AI), they beat a .500 Pacers team (still lost a game), a 47 win Raptors team (in 7), and (now we're on to the teams that would actually MAKE the Western Conference playoffs...) a 52 win Bucks team in the ECF's (AI shot 34% from the field but they won due to their D despite his woes). They were then absolutely torched in the Finals once they faced the West. And that's his hallmark achievement. Sorry, he's no GOAT buddy. He should join the list around the 40-60 range if we're still going.

No way you watched those series did you. Blasphemous statements! Itís Nonscene!

IKnowHoops
02-13-2018, 02:23 AM
No.

Da ó-k?

IKnowHoops
02-13-2018, 02:25 AM
Hereís an idea, compare Drob to AI, Wade, Tmac and realize this whole argument has been pointless.

Chronz
02-13-2018, 06:47 AM
Can you put Drobs 93-94 season up next to this filth to at least put all Dolphins fans on notice?
We're looking at playoff numbers when both were on **** teams.

Drob actually falls woefully short in his 4 game appearance that post season. He was totally and utterly shown up by Karl Malone, you could argue drob was like the 3rd best player in the series that year.

Drob had a tendency to shrink in the playoffs but you still chose one of his worst showings. Looking at drob vs quality teams it gets worse.

WaDe03
02-13-2018, 10:08 AM
Imagine thinking prime TMac Walton West Dirk etc. are better than prime Wade lol! ***** honestly hilarious.

Redrum, I agree on KD over TMac and Wade over both but not on Walton and definitely not your shots at Wade who **** all over the Mavericks. It's not Wades fault that no one on Dallas was nearly good enough defensively to stay in front of him. What you saw was the best player in the world taking over like we've never seen before. Took over like these other bums being voted ahead of him could never do.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-13-2018, 10:19 AM
DROB lost in the 1ST ROUND that year. He never even made it to the Finals until DUNCAN came along.

WADE had one of the best playoffs/Finals EVER

Some calling Prime WADE the 08-09 season. It was him, grandpa MARION, rookies and scrubs. He had NOBODY.

Pfeifer
02-13-2018, 10:39 AM
Are you serious? Wade could dribble better, for sure pass better I have no clue where you came up with that, and actually win. Wades defense is very underrated and he's the GOAT shot blocking guard. TMac could shoot better but that's about it, TMac put up empty numbers and couldn't even get out of the 1st round lol. Wade was getting out of the 1st round his rookie season and winning championships by his 3rd.

With Shaq. What did he do on his own? Nothing.

WaDe03
02-13-2018, 10:43 AM
With Shaq. What did he do on his own? Nothing.

Shaqs numbers in the Finals were the same as his averages in Cleveland.

WaDe03
02-13-2018, 10:45 AM
With Shaq. What did he do on his own? Nothing.

But on his own he was able to get to the 2nd round as a rookie and was hitting game winners in the playoffs.

2016 carried the Heat to the 2nd round and a game 7 without Bosh and Whiteside.

Pfeifer
02-13-2018, 10:48 AM
Oscar is the right choice here. Mcgrady over Oscar is laughable.

mightybosstone
02-13-2018, 10:49 AM
Oscar is the right choice here. Mcgrady over Oscar is laughable.

McGrady over A LOT of guys was laughable. But voters on PSD aren't too bright, so...

WaDe03
02-13-2018, 11:25 AM
People are forgetting Mchrady actually made the NBA Finals once but he ended up losing to Wade, end of debate.

KnicksorBust
02-13-2018, 12:38 PM
After Walton goes #14 I think I'm going Durant next.

Great read on Durant today from the Ringer. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/13/17005976/kevin-durant-defense-dpoy

He'll be the first player since Michael Jordan you could argument is the best overall offensive and defensive player in the world at the same time.

europagnpilgrim
02-13-2018, 12:41 PM
Nah AI got shut down, played far worse and got his team to less wins. Daly wasn't around to watch the massacre

32ppg and 7apg is being shut down in 2003? Chronz you be on some bi polar ish lately and they lost in 6 games, he is the Lil Dipper for a reason, is 31 and 10 in 2005 being shut down? and he damn near played all 48 per game(47.6), he is the Lil Dipper Chamberlain Iverson, that's his name from now on, all this disrespect on here to a legend, the league is more Iverson than ever, especially all those scoring undersized guards

Daly was around because he said/quoted after the series I think in 05 or 06(webber deal) that Iverson was a top 10 player ever after he lit up Detroit for like 37pts and 15 dimes and Daly passed I think around 08 or 2009 so he was there, man you are either drunk when you post on here or have completely fell off the basketball map because you ''use'' to be way better at analyzing or speaking on ish that actually happened

so if 32 and 7 is getting shut down then damn it Lebron and his triple double in Finals got extremely shut down by the Warriors


Chuck Daly, on a mission to stop the high-scoring Iverson, delved into his formidable memory bank and searched for a scheme that might help. He found it in a dusty old folder bearing a familiar name.

Michael Jordan.

A little retro-strategy by an old master has spiced up this first-round series between Daly's Orlando Magic and the Philadelphia 76ers. In Game 3 tonight in Philadelphia, the 76ers will have to come up with an answer for Daly's latest masterpiece - the "Iverson Rules."

The Magic tied the series at 1-1 with the same kind of physical play that helped Daly's "Bad Boy" Pistons twice defeat Jordan's Chicago Bulls on the way to NBA championships. Those tactics, which came to be known as the "Jordan Rules," meant simply this: Wherever Jordan went, whether he had the ball or not, he would be greeted by numerous defenders, with arms and elbows flailing.




So Daly used the same tactics on the media whore GOAT Jordan and poundforpoundthegreatest player ever Iverson, damn the Lil Dipper is really ****ing good at playing ball


another classic Daly quote:

"They deserve to win this series," said Magic coach Chuck Daly, who watched Iverson score 30 or more points in three of four games in the series. "This was Allen Iverson's show. He scored 37 points on 14-of-27 shooting and he is such a tough competitor. I don't think you '''(the media)''' realize all the things he does."


ďHeís an incredible player, one of the top 10 in history,Ē former Pistons coach Chuck Daly told a visitor before Iverson ignited and torched Detroitís defense for game-high totals of 37 points and 15 assists in a 2005 game at Wachovia Center.

europagnpilgrim
02-13-2018, 12:56 PM
I like your posts, they're fun. A bit exhausting though. Having some wine and focusing on my NBA bets for the night now. I'll get back to this more tomorrow. I'm pretty sure Mutombo was in his early to mid 30's on the Sixers btw (just skimming through seeing 38? Don't have those pages up now but no I doubt that). I don't think AI was a nobody. But what he did offensively for that elite D in that horrible conference can be replicated by a number of players. There's no merit badges for being a midget. All is equal when we're talking GOAT's. And to me he's simply objectively not one of them. Again though I can dive a little deeper tomorrow. On to tonight --->

of course you like my posts, you cant get much substance/form from one liners, we are trading dialogue about sports, it takes at least a paragraph, especially if it carries weight, I be sipping that wine as well but instead of making bets on the game I am the bet, a for sure bet at that

I didn't mean literally 38yrs for Deke, I was speaking more so to his natural slow footed non athletic nature and the age factor, he played until he was like 44yrs I think, so him in his 35-36yr range is a terrible fit over a young athletic big like Ratliff though I get why the trade was made due to injury and Philly in a position to come out the East and Mutumbo was like on his last hurrah as Defensive player because the following season he became worthless with the 3 second D paint rule

I don't fault or use his height against him, it is what it is, its why Lebron said he played like he was 6'8'' shooting guard, he played way bigger than his height which is incredible once you sit back and digest it, just like I don't fault Lebron for being so damn fast at his size, its amazing he is that fast at that size, he had AI speed basically as AI had physical ability like Lebron just in a 150lb 5'10'' frame

that defense could have been replicated by other players as well, its L Brown scheme and it went with him everywhere prior to joining Philly because he was a supreme strictly D minded coach, see how that works now for both sides since you said any offensive player could be plugged in, without factoring in the 45+ minutes per game needed to be played, Jordan rules thrown at you and having to shoot with a purpose 30+ times a night just to keep your team in the game, you are on drugs if you think any player could just step in there and do that,no way no how

valade16
02-13-2018, 12:58 PM
After Walton goes #14 I think I'm going Durant next.

Great read on Durant today from the Ringer. https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/13/17005976/kevin-durant-defense-dpoy

He'll be the first player since Michael Jordan you could argument is the best overall offensive and defensive player in the world at the same time.

Is he even the best defensive player on his own team? I am leery of attributing excellent defense to KD when he was never more than good until he goes to a juggernaught defensive team and suddenly looks excellent.

ewing
02-13-2018, 01:28 PM
Is he even the best defensive player on his own team? I am leery of attributing excellent defense to KD when he was never more than good until he goes to a juggernaught defensive team and suddenly looks excellent.

No

KnicksorBust
02-13-2018, 03:50 PM
Is he even the best defensive player on his own team? I am leery of attributing excellent defense to KD when he was never more than good until he goes to a juggernaught defensive team and suddenly looks excellent.

Probably not... but will he make all-nba defensive 1st team? Yes. Will it be deserved? Yes. Is he still the toughest 1 v 1 cover in the NBA? Yes. So either way top 2 offensive player and top 5 defensive player in the league.

I'm okay with putting that guy #15 all-time.

valade16
02-13-2018, 04:05 PM
Probably not... but will he make all-nba defensive 1st team? Yes. Will it be deserved? Yes. Is he still the toughest 1 v 1 cover in the NBA? Yes. So either way top 2 offensive player and top 5 defensive player in the league.

I'm okay with putting that guy #15 all-time.

I'm not arguing against him going around here (indeed I was considering him at this spot). But him being a Top 5 defensive player is because the 5 actual best defenders are all hurt this year, so is he having a top 5 defensive season? Probably. Does that make him a top 5 defender if everyone is healthy? No.

KnicksorBust
02-13-2018, 04:10 PM
I'm not arguing against him going around here (indeed I was considering him at this spot). But him being a Top 5 defensive player is because the 5 actual best defenders are all hurt this year, so is he having a top 5 defensive season? Probably. Does that make him a top 5 defender if everyone is healthy? No.

Kawhi
Draymond
Gobert

Who????????? I'm not going to waste energy arguing him against the 3 above but nobody else in the league can switch 1-5 and rim protect like he can now.

Redrum187
02-13-2018, 05:21 PM
Valade, Bill Walton said he wishes you weren't a Blazers fan. :mad:

valade16
02-13-2018, 05:43 PM
Valade, Bill Walton said he wishes you weren't a Blazers fan. :mad:

:laugh: Trust me I know, I'm not happy voting against him, though I had no idea he would be considered quite this high (thought he'd be considered around 20th).

europagnpilgrim
02-13-2018, 05:58 PM
:laugh: Trust me I know, I'm not happy voting against him, though I had no idea he would be considered quite this high (thought he'd be considered around 20th).


He is way way overrated and I don't care what he did, he is not ranked this high

you need to start a albion thread on the best most dominant basketball players

Walton nor Bird nor Stockton nor Dirk nor West are on my list of 20 best players, or 25 but Bird/Dirk or West would be my choice after daddy Sabonis who was better then them all at his peak but didn't get to showcase it in the nba during his peak

Shammyguy3
02-13-2018, 09:25 PM
He is way way overrated and I don't care what he did, he is not ranked this high

you need to start a albion thread on the best most dominant basketball players

Walton nor Bird nor Stockton nor Dirk nor West are on my list of 20 best players, or 25 but Bird/Dirk or West would be my choice after daddy Sabonis who was better then them all at his peak but didn't get to showcase it in the nba during his peak

You don't have Larry Bird in your top-20? What the fudge nugget? You don't have Jerry West in your top-20? What the double fudge nugget. I could see one arguing against Dirk top-20, but c'mon. This is ridiculous

JAZZNC
02-14-2018, 02:11 PM
You don't have Larry Bird in your top-20? What the fudge nugget? You don't have Jerry West in your top-20? What the double fudge nugget. I could see one arguing against Dirk top-20, but c'mon. This is ridiculous

He thinks Iverson is better than Bird....there's no reasoning with that kind of insanity.

IKnowHoops
02-15-2018, 12:17 AM
We're looking at playoff numbers when both were on **** teams.

Drob actually falls woefully short in his 4 game appearance that post season. He was totally and utterly shown up by Karl Malone, you could argue drob was like the 3rd best player in the series that year.

Drob had a tendency to shrink in the playoffs but you still chose one of his worst showings. Looking at drob vs quality teams it gets worse.

Thought you were comparing prime regular seasons. Iíll find a playoff series easily

KingPosey
02-15-2018, 02:08 AM
Are you serious? Wade could dribble better, for sure pass better I have no clue where you came up with that, and actually win. Wades defense is very underrated and he's the GOAT shot blocking guard. TMac could shoot better but that's about it, TMac put up empty numbers and couldn't even get out of the 1st round lol. Wade was getting out of the 1st round his rookie season and winning championships by his 3rd.
Iím so sick of the mcgrady didnít play well in the playoffs ********. Before he came back from his final injury as a limited minutes bench player, he actually had some of the best post season numbers of all time. Thatís not
Hyperbole. He played EXTREMELY well in the playoffs.

But it is true he gets a pass for being a volume scorer. Canít argue that. I think itís because he was soooo ****ing talented and had every move and could make every shot it gets overlooked, the same exact way Kobe does.

LeonFSU
02-15-2018, 02:42 PM
Why? If that were true then explain why we could see the best player in the league miss the playoffs entirely? This ain't tennis bro

That McGrady was able to carry those Magic teams to the playoffs at all is insane.

Chronz
02-15-2018, 03:02 PM
Thought you were comparing prime regular seasons. Iíll find a playoff series easily

Well yeah, good luck finding one where he outperformed expectations cuz he has a plethora of true stinkers

Chronz
02-15-2018, 03:04 PM
That McGrady was able to carry those Magic teams to the playoffs at all is insane.
It's a shame, in today's era he would coasted far better, unfortunately his body/back was crooked. At least he outlived his doctors expectations of him in the league

KnicksorBust
02-15-2018, 03:05 PM
Walton at #14 :win:

Time for Durant next. No more games.