PDA

View Full Version : Official ROTY thread



Pages : [1] 2

Giannis94
02-12-2018, 11:08 AM
Well seeing that everyone thought Simmons was a run away to take ROTY; and then D-Mitch said "hold me back" and has been playing extremely well.

I think it's at least worth discussing. Because Mitchell can win it; it's not too far out of the realm.


ďI think he should be Rookie of the Year, for sure,Ē Damian Lillard said of Mitchell. ďNot just because of his numbers, but his impact on their team. Heís basically leading them. Itís special to see a rookie be able to do what heís doing out there.Ē
It was merely the latest jaw-dropping performance for the rookie guard, who was named the Western Conference Player of the Month in December and January.
ďHeís a really, really, really good player,Ē Lillard said. ďNot just for a rookie, just as a player in the league. PEriod.

GREATNESS ONE
02-12-2018, 11:17 AM
Simmons is a Sophmore. He shouldnít be the ROY plus he whines and complains a lot. I wonder how much he would complain after watching Mitchell win ROY.

More-Than-Most
02-12-2018, 11:17 AM
Mitchell will win it because the league hates the process... Mitchell doesnt deserve to win it though.

16/8/7 on 52 percent shooting

19/3/3 on 44 percent shooting

Its not close but I legit hope mitchell wins because mad ben is best ben and id rather have ben with a chip on his shoulder next year.

More-Than-Most
02-12-2018, 11:21 AM
what a jaw dropping performance last night... 27 points on 24 shots lol.

Giannis94
02-12-2018, 11:22 AM
Mitchell will win it because the league hates the process... Mitchell doesnt deserve to win it though.

16/8/7 on 52 percent shooting

19/3/3 on 44 percent shooting

Its not close but I legit hope mitchell wins because mad ben is best ben and id rather have ben with a chip on his shoulder next year.

The league does not hate the process. That's a falsified narritive that you philly fans are convinced off. It's not true.

More-Than-Most
02-12-2018, 11:24 AM
The league does not hate the process. That's a falsified narritive that you philly fans are convinced off. It's not true.

again i can live with simmons losing rookie of the year kinda like saric did... look at how that turned out... saric is on fire where brogdon is meh.. This year will be no different really.

More-Than-Most
02-12-2018, 11:27 AM
What's this years performance have to do with last year? Broggy was playing great before he got injured. Saric also struggled a lot early in the season and Saric just started heating up recently. Nice troll attempt. Dilly dilly.

it has everything to do with it... i was making a reference to how simmons will have a chip on his shoulder when he gets robbed much like saric now does because he was robbed as well : )

Giannis94
02-12-2018, 11:28 AM
again i can live with simmons losing rookie of the year kinda like saric did... look at how that turned out... saric is on fire where brogdon is meh.. This year will be no different really.

What's this years performance have to do with last year? Broggy was playing great before he got injured. Saric also struggled a lot early in the season and Saric just started heating up recently. Nice troll attempt. Dilly dilly.

JAZZNC
02-12-2018, 11:35 AM
So the 6-10 guy gets more rebounds and more assists (while having the FAR superior supporting cast). Yeah, Simmons should be ROY even though he shouldn't be eligible because of Philly's red shirt program they implement on all top picks.

They are both impressive players, but it would be interesting to see what Simmons would be able to do if his second best offensive player was Joe Ingles. They are in completely different situations and if MTM thinks Mitchell is Brogdon....well I dunno what to tell you. They are both special players and ROY doesn't mean **** so let's just enjoy both of them.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 11:44 AM
Does Simmons still suck without embiid out there? If so, then definitely Mitchell

Giannis94
02-12-2018, 11:45 AM
it has everything to do with it... i was making a reference to how simmons will have a chip on his shoulder when he gets robbed much like saric now does because he was robbed as well : )

He's also in his second year in the NBA. I'm sure that has nothing to do with it; like being able to practice, learn the ins and outs and get a structured program. Mitchell literally came from animal house, and a ton of hookers at louisville. The fact that he is figuring it out so early is a testamaent to his ability to learn and develop

GREATNESS ONE
02-12-2018, 11:50 AM
So the 6-10 guy gets more rebounds and more assists (while having the FAR superior supporting cast). Yeah, Simmons should be ROY even though he shouldn't be eligible because of Philly's red shirt program they implement on all top picks.

They are both impressive players, but it would be interesting to see what Simmons would be able to do if his second best offensive player was Joe Ingles. They are in completely different situations and if MTM thinks Mitchell is Brogdon....well I dunno what to tell you. They are both special players and ROY doesn't mean **** so let's just enjoy both of them.

Lolz good post, agree with practically everything you wrote. I also want to add to youíre ROY comment not meaning **** as right now I would take 3/4 players drafted in last years rookie class over the ROY.

GREATNESS ONE
02-12-2018, 11:51 AM
Does Simmons still suck without embiid out there? If so, then definitely Mitchell

Lolz

Giannis94
02-12-2018, 11:53 AM
Does Simmons still suck without embiid out there? If so, then definitely Mitchell

Shhhh we can't talk about that. That is heresy!

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-12-2018, 12:22 PM
I don't buy Simmons as a rookie. He's a sophomore really. I don't think he should be eligible to win ROY just because he got hurt his rookie year.

With that said, Simmons and Mitchell are basically the same age and Simmons is better. So there's that.

warfelg
02-12-2018, 12:36 PM
Depends what the criteria is this year. Efficiency or overall numbers or solo scoring.

If Ben keeps this up and the Sixers make the playoffs and Mitchell is on the outside looking in, thatís going to have some effect.

I said it before and Iíll say it again:
Mitchellís numbers are what they are scoring wise because of a lack of other options on the team. Bens scoring numbers are what they are because he doesnít need to score it the same way.

TheDish87
02-12-2018, 12:42 PM
lol there is no race here. Its 10000% Simmons. The last update I saw early this year was Simmons -475 to win and im pretty sure hes increased his odds since.

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 12:46 PM
Depends what the criteria is this year. Efficiency or overall numbers or solo scoring.

If Ben keeps this up and the Sixers make the playoffs and Mitchell is on the outside looking in, thatís going to have some effect.

I said it before and Iíll say it again:
Mitchellís numbers are what they are scoring wise because of a lack of other options on the team. Bens scoring numbers are what they are because he doesnít need to score it the same way.

That's what is funny about reading posts because the context of their stats gets ignored. "IT HAS TO MITCHELL LOOK AT HIS SCORING!" "IT HAS TO BE SIMMONS LOOK AT HIS AST/RBD"

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 12:47 PM
It's hard for me to get passionate about ROY. To me it's more about who is going to be better in 2 years and while both could be all-stars...Simmons looks like a superstar. When the 3pt shot comes it's a wrap. MVP contender.

Giannis94
02-12-2018, 12:53 PM
It's hard for me to get passionate about ROY. To me it's more about who is going to be better in 2 years and while both could be all-stars...Simmons looks like a superstar. When the 3pt shot comes it's a wrap. MVP contender.

When the 3 pt shot? How about regular jump shot. And he turns the ball over a ton whenever I watch. I dunno if it's the curse of when Giannis94 watches or if its all other games as well

LA4life24/8
02-12-2018, 01:23 PM
Simmons will win it. No doubt. But idt he should be allowed to. But since he is hes gonna win it. Averaging a near triple double and their record will be betrer than Utah's.

Mitchell would win if simmons was ineligible.

3 and 4 go to kuzma and DSJ (no particular order)

warfelg
02-12-2018, 01:37 PM
It's hard for me to get passionate about ROY. To me it's more about who is going to be better in 2 years and while both could be all-stars...Simmons looks like a superstar. When the 3pt shot comes it's a wrap. MVP contender.

He's been working on them in practice. Running theory is he's not being pushed to do it because the coaches want his moral to stay up.

sjbirds
02-12-2018, 01:38 PM
When the 3 pt shot? How about regular jump shot. And he turns the ball over a ton whenever I watch. I dunno if it's the curse of when Giannis94 watches or if its all other games as well

while he does turn it over too much in the clutch but I wouldn't say he turns it over a ton. Less the 1 to more the Giannis a game and handles it more.

bootsy
02-12-2018, 01:56 PM
This shouldn't even be a poll. Simmons is ROY period. That Mitchell guy is a ****ing ball hog and also since Brogdon won it last year because he was a 'winner':rolleyes: over Embiid and Saric then Simmons should get it because his team will be a playoff team.

Firefistus
02-12-2018, 02:03 PM
I love how the guy that posted 2 of Mitchells game stats posted 2 of his worst games of the last month. How about posting his 40 point games? Here I'll do it for you.

He has 2 of them this year, the last rookie to do this was Blake Griffin.


Those games stats are as follows

Feb 2nd against the Suns

40 points, 6 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, 2 turnovers.

He shot 14-19 from 2 and 7-9 from three. (he scored 40 points with 28 shots.)


December 1st against the Pelicans (The Pelicans had a full, healthy roster)

41 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers

He shot 13-25 from 2 and 9-11 from 3.


If you're going to tell a story, don't pick the worst days of the month, or random days at all, this is about his season, not a few games. All Rookies are inconsistent, that's just the way it is, so they will all have bad games, hell, Simmons had a bad month, but he seems to be back on track now.

I personally believe the award is going to go to the team with the highest record. But I personally believe that right now Mitchell is a more well rounded player marginally. Mitchell can shoot threes and is slightly better on defense that what I've seen this year in Simmons. But Simmons has better court decision on the floor currently, and because of his height he can rebound easier, they both seem to go at the rebounds a fair amount though.


That being said, I'm just happy that Mitchell is in the conversation, being a long time Jazz fan it's fun to watch a team grow that actually WANTS to be in Utah *Cough Betrayward*

dhopisthename
02-12-2018, 02:40 PM
Mitchell will win it because the league hates the process... Mitchell doesnt deserve to win it though.

16/8/7 on 52 percent shooting

19/3/3 on 44 percent shooting

Its not close but I legit hope mitchell wins because mad ben is best ben and id rather have ben with a chip on his shoulder next year.

if you think simmons should win fine, but can we please stop using fg%. one of the most useless stats
TS%-efg%
Mitchell-55%-51.4%
Simmons-54%-52.5%

Per 36 the numbers are pretty close pts-reb-ast-turn
Mitchell 21.9-3.9-3.8-2.9
Simmons 17-8-7.5-3.8

simmons is the better passer and mitchell is better scorer. I haven't watched simmons enough to say who I would vote for, and honestly being that Simmon is a #1 pick who got to take a year off and learn the game and Mitchell is a #13 pick I am excited that he is even being discussed.

warfelg
02-12-2018, 02:53 PM
if you think simmons should win fine, but can we please stop using fg%. one of the most useless stats
TS%-efg%
Mitchell-55%-51.4%
Simmons-54%-52.5%

Per 36 the numbers are pretty close pts-reb-ast-turn
Mitchell 21.9-3.9-3.8-2.9
Simmons 17-8-7.5-3.8

simmons is the better passer and mitchell is better scorer. I haven't watched simmons enough to say who I would vote for, and honestly being that Simmon is a #1 pick who got to take a year off and learn the game and Mitchell is a #13 pick I am excited that he is even being discussed.

I think it's a bit unfair to say that FG% is useless then state PER36. Guys on NBARadio were going nuts over someone quoting PER36 for why one player was better. I agree with the guys on NBA Radio that said if you want to look at things other than scoring, talk about REB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%. That gives a better picture of the impact of the play on the field.

Iversonfan4life
02-12-2018, 02:57 PM
if you think simmons should win fine, but can we please stop using fg%. one of the most useless stats
TS%-efg%
Mitchell-55%-51.4%
Simmons-54%-52.5%

Per 36 the numbers are pretty close pts-reb-ast-turn
Mitchell 21.9-3.9-3.8-2.9
Simmons 17-8-7.5-3.8

simmons is the better passer and mitchell is better scorer. I haven't watched simmons enough to say who I would vote for, and honestly being that Simmon is a #1 pick who got to take a year off and learn the game and Mitchell is a #13 pick I am excited that he is even being discussed.

Just curious. How has Mitchell's defense been so far? I know he was pegged as a potential 3-D guy at the draft.

TheDish87
02-12-2018, 03:13 PM
PER is dumb especially per 36 considering Simmons almost plays that much anyway

Firefistus
02-12-2018, 03:45 PM
Just curious. How has Mitchell's defense been so far? I know he was pegged as a potential 3-D guy at the draft.

His Defense is Stellar. Rubio has been long considered one of the best defensive PG's in the league. That being said Mithcell and Rubio can both guard 1-2 guards without much issue. And they both guard them at close to the same rate. I would say Rubio is a little better because of experience (Mitchell IS a rookie and it shows sometimes). But Mitchell makes up for it with his hops and quickness.

dhopisthename
02-12-2018, 03:48 PM
I think it's a bit unfair to say that FG% is useless then state PER36. Guys on NBARadio were going nuts over someone quoting PER36 for why one player was better. I agree with the guys on NBA Radio that said if you want to look at things other than scoring, talk about REB%, AST%, STL%, BLK%. That gives a better picture of the impact of the play on the field.

I used per 36 because at the start of the season Mitchell was coming off the bench behind Hood and since he started after about 10 games he has averaged about 35 minutes same as simmons. Also with 30 games left I expect Mitchell to get closer to Simmons MPG. I mean lets get real here comparing players on different teams who play different positions is extremely hard. The Jazz play at the 6th slowest pace in the NBA and the 76ers the 5th fastest as one example. also lets get real here this is the ROY, if Mitchell say wins the Dunk contest with a great dunk it massively increases his chances cause no one really cares about this award.

dhopisthename
02-12-2018, 03:50 PM
Just curious. How has Mitchell's defense been so far? I know he was pegged as a potential 3-D guy at the draft.

its been meh. Coaches have talked about how he doesn't get enough practice on it because they are focusing more on his offense for now.

Vee-Rex
02-12-2018, 03:53 PM
Mitchell is my guy. Gonna be following that kid for his career.

Iversonfan4life
02-12-2018, 04:04 PM
its been meh. Coaches have talked about how he doesn't get enough practice on it because they are focusing more on his offense for now.

He definitely has the tools. Don't see why it would be an issue going forward.

It is frustrating to me that Donovan IS literally exactly what I expected Fultz to be as a rookie... He's been really impressive.

JasonJohnHorn
02-12-2018, 04:34 PM
Wait... there is a debate to this?

I thought the only debate was who the runner up was: Simmons or Kuzma.

Joking of course... I really like Donavan... but Simmons rebounding and assist numbers are insane... hard to pick there. Leaning toward Simmons, but if Donavan's average play early is dragging down his stats a bit. If he maintains his current performanace, be may be averaging around 22 a game by season's end.

Tough call.

TheDish87
02-12-2018, 04:47 PM
I used per 36 because at the start of the season Mitchell was coming off the bench behind Hood and since he started after about 10 games he has averaged about 35 minutes same as simmons. Also with 30 games left I expect Mitchell to get closer to Simmons MPG. I mean lets get real here comparing players on different teams who play different positions is extremely hard. The Jazz play at the 6th slowest pace in the NBA and the 76ers the 5th fastest as one example. also lets get real here this is the ROY, if Mitchell say wins the Dunk contest with a great dunk it massively increases his chances cause no one really cares about this award.

youre not wrong except for the dunk contest thing, thats not gonna have any impact at all.

dhopisthename
02-12-2018, 07:08 PM
youre not wrong except for the dunk contest thing, thats not gonna have any impact at all.

I know it shouldn't matter, but it will both ways if he's horrible or great.

TheDish87
02-13-2018, 09:37 AM
it really wont. i dont know hwy you think that.

Scoots
02-13-2018, 10:09 AM
I still think Simmons should be excluded. It should be by draft class.

Firefistus
02-13-2018, 10:16 AM
it really wont. i dont know hwy you think that.

Every Jazz fan knows that the Jazz aren't watched by most the media that votes on those awards. Chris Weber, who is a national sportscaster, admitted last year that he never watched 1 Jazz game before they faced the Warriors in the playoffs.

I think that's why he says that the all-star dunk contest will make a difference.

You can pretend the people voting on those awards are neutral, but that's just not the truth.

Another example and I'll be done. Spencer Checketts (The Official Utah Jazz Radio Station voice) interviewed Chris Mannix (one of Bostons Voters) yesterday trying to see if Chris will admit that Donavan Mitchell is better than Tatum, and Chris still believes that Tatum is Rookie of the Year. Claiming that the Celtics have a better record, and that always makes a difference in the Rookie of the Year vote.

After doing the research, most of the time the RoY is on a team that's almost last in the league, so that's not true, but this is just an example of someone who openly said he doesn't watch Jazz games, he's east coast and it's too late to watch their games, even though he's paid to watch teams. But he won't watch a Jazz game, and he will continue to Homer vote Tatum as RoY.

Mark my words, everything the rookie does will make a difference on voting, if a rookie tweets something offensive, that affects his vote.

BTW, Jazz have a 10 game winning streak now, and Donovan Mitchell leads the Jazz in PPG during that streak. Something that's only been accomplished by Wilt Chamberlain and Donovan Mitchell.

TheDish87
02-13-2018, 10:49 AM
I still think Simmons should be excluded. It should be by draft class.

its not like he would be the first

Giannis94
02-13-2018, 12:02 PM
its not like he would be the first

2 words. Malcolm Brogdon.

WaDe03
02-13-2018, 12:29 PM
Whether you think Simmons should be a rookie or not it doesn't matter because he is. I still think Simmons is leading but Mitchell is climbing his way up quick.

Scoots
02-13-2018, 12:58 PM
its not like he would be the first

Doesn't make me like the stupid rule. If you take a college player and pay millions for him to have trainers and full time coaching for a year and then put them in competition with someone who has had to balance working on their body/game with school work on a shoestring budget ... that's not even close to reasonable. Simmons should be excluded.

LA4life24/8
02-13-2018, 01:11 PM
Doesn't make me like the stupid rule. If you take a college player and pay millions for him to have trainers and full time coaching for a year and then put them in competition with someone who has had to balance working on their body/game with school work on a shoestring budget ... that's not even close to reasonable. Simmons should be excluded.

I completely agree. Esp since hes had time to gel off court w the guys on the team as well. Building chemistry is huge.

But dem da rules unfortunately so simmons will win it. There's not a doubt in my mind. Itll prolly be very close to unanimous too. Mitchell 2nd kuz 3rd (lakers should have q better record than the mavs) And DSJ 4th tatum 5th. Tatum has leveled off a bit too and the fact that he plays for a top 3 team in the league goes against him.

TheDish87
02-13-2018, 02:50 PM
Doesn't make me like the stupid rule. If you take a college player and pay millions for him to have trainers and full time coaching for a year and then put them in competition with someone who has had to balance working on their body/game with school work on a shoestring budget ... that's not even close to reasonable. Simmons should be excluded.

i mean its not like the true rookies havent been with pro trainers and stuff like that while preparing for the draft and after leading up to the season with summer ball and training camp. i get your general distain for the rule but i dont think there is much of an advantage for a red shirt rookie as some people make it out to be and the red shirt players were out injured with serious injuries anyway. Players are so much further ahead entering the league now then they were 10 years ago.

TheDish87
02-13-2018, 02:51 PM
I completely agree. Esp since hes had time to gel off court w the guys on the team as well. Building chemistry is huge.

But dem da rules unfortunately so simmons will win it. There's not a doubt in my mind. Itll prolly be very close to unanimous too. Mitchell 2nd kuz 3rd (lakers should have q better record than the mavs) And DSJ 4th tatum 5th. Tatum has leveled off a bit too and the fact that he plays for a top 3 team in the league goes against him.

record isnt gonna play much of a role, it rarely does (last year was BS and it did) but it wont matter with lottery teams at all. Like LAL being 5 games ahead of Dallas isnt gonna be the reason Kuzma finishes higher than Smith.

Giannis94
02-13-2018, 03:18 PM
Whether you think Simmons should be a rookie or not it doesn't matter because he is. I still think Simmons is leading but Mitchell is climbing his way up quick.

It's not like it's over. That's what I was getting at. what if simmons misses the rest of the season due to the flue or something freakish like that?

Scoots
02-14-2018, 12:27 AM
i mean its not like the true rookies havent been with pro trainers and stuff like that while preparing for the draft and after leading up to the season with summer ball and training camp. i get your general distain for the rule but i dont think there is much of an advantage for a red shirt rookie as some people make it out to be and the red shirt players were out injured with serious injuries anyway. Players are so much further ahead entering the league now then they were 10 years ago.

There is a HUGE advantage. They've spent a year with their coaches. If nothing else that alone would make a big difference. Rookies come off the draft wrecked ... and they were often training for the combine, not for basketball, and that was a month before the draft after which they are being wined and dined and then they are staying away while their deal is worked out, then they get maybe 5 practices in the pre-season and then it's game time, and that first month of the season is the start of the rookie of the year story. It is a huge advantage.

TheDish87
02-14-2018, 09:45 AM
eh i think its only a small advantage at best. we are talking about players coming off major injuries who spend the entire season rehabbing and doing little basketball work. Besides, Blake was going to win ROY no matter when he played, same goes for Simmons.

warfelg
02-14-2018, 11:43 AM
Some things to consider when talking about this ROY debate:

Simmons is currently 4th in the NBA in assists (That's whole NBA not rookies), 6th in the NBA (NBA as a whole) in steals, 27th in the NBA (again as a whole) in total rebounds, 18th in the NBA in FG%, T-38 in blocks. Other things to add in; T-17th in most double doubles, quickest ever (in total games played) to have a triple double, has 5 triple doubles so far (most for a rookie since Magic).

Basically if you look outside of scoring, Ben's performance has been hard to deny not just as good for a rookie, but good/great period.

warfelg
02-14-2018, 02:31 PM
Interesting passage I recently read talking about the ROY race:

Donovan Mitchell stans proclaim him to be the driving force in the Utah Jazzí resurgence, ignoring the fact that during Rudy Gobertís most recent absence, the team accumulated a record of 4-11. Since Gobertís return, the Jazz are 11-2. Mitchell has been pretty incredible during the Jazzí win streak, and they would not have won 10 straight without him. Mitchell, however, is not solely responsible for the teamís success and using the streak as evidence of his superiority to Simmons is faulty at best.

Simmons is not the go-to scorer for the Sixers. And Joel Embiid is typically the most important factor in the Sixers winning or losing a game. Of course the team performs better when Simmons is on the court with Embiid, versus just Simmons. (Similar to the way that the Jazz perform better with Mitchell and Gobert, rather than just Mitchell.) However, Simmons also elevates Joel Embiidís game, enabling Embiid and the team, to perform at a higher level. Simply put, in no way is Simmonsí performance less impressive or valuable because he isnít Option #1.

I like Donovan Mitchell. I really like Donovan Mitchell. Heís exactly what I hope Markelle Fultz becomes. And in comparing Simmons and Mitchell, itís easy to see that Mitchell is a more reliable scorer than Simmons. However, overall, Simmons has been the superior player on a team that would make the playoffs if the playoffs started today. Mitchellís Jazz? On the outside looking in.

Vee-Rex
02-14-2018, 02:36 PM
I like Mitchell better than Simmons but I think ROY goes to Simmons as of now. He has been better.

Giannis94
02-14-2018, 09:33 PM
What is Simmons record without embi? Serious question

More-Than-Most
02-14-2018, 09:51 PM
What is Simmons record without embi? Serious question

Not very good at all I believe... but Simmons is playing damn well tonight without him and usually does its just the impact embiid has is other worldly on both ends of the floor... without embiid we become a jump shooting team and live or die by the 3... tonight simmons through 3 quarters has 12/9/8

Jamiecballer
02-14-2018, 10:59 PM
As impressive as Mitchell has been of late Simmons should still be comfortably ahead. Mitchell might steal it depending on how long this win streak goes but im sorry, you arent going to convince me a guy with averages of 22 ppg, 4 apg and roughly 3.5 rpg is carry a team on his back, the numbers dont add up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Scoots
02-14-2018, 11:56 PM
As impressive as Mitchell has been of late Simmons should still be comfortably ahead. Mitchell might steal it depending on how long this win streak goes but im sorry, you arent going to convince me a guy with averages of 22 ppg, 4 apg and roughly 3.5 rpg is carry a team on his back, the numbers dont add up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

In the end it comes down to the last few weeks of the season.

TrustJoseph
02-15-2018, 01:04 AM
So Ben simmons was gelling with the team while rehabbing? How do you gel off the court? I always thought gelling was something that happened in practice and during game's. But now im learning you can gel off the court.

TheDish87
02-15-2018, 09:34 AM
this race was never really close, still isnt close, and likely wont end up close.

Firefistus
02-15-2018, 09:46 AM
As impressive as Mitchell has been of late Simmons should still be comfortably ahead. Mitchell might steal it depending on how long this win streak goes but im sorry, you arent going to convince me a guy with averages of 22 ppg, 4 apg and roughly 3.5 rpg is carry a team on his back, the numbers dont add up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Mitchell is tied in 5th among 4th quarter points scored per game this year. He's also the ONLY rookie ever to lead a team in ppg during an 11 game winning streak. No one has ever done that.

If you think Mitchell isn't the reason the Jazz have this 11 game winning streak then frankly you aren't watching Jazz games. I understand though, very small market team in the west with late games. Who wants to watch Utah until 1 am on the east coast?

As a man who's watched every Jazz game this season, I can tell you without a doubt that Mitchell has literally dragged the Jazz through some muddy victories this season. And it's very impressive to see a rookie take over a team like he has.

More-Than-Most
02-15-2018, 10:25 AM
https://medium.com/@MWhittington13/roy-is-still-not-a-close-race-50dce2465ddc

warfelg
02-15-2018, 10:41 AM
Mitchell is tied in 5th among 4th quarter points scored per game this year. He's also the ONLY rookie ever to lead a team in ppg during an 11 game winning streak. No one has ever done that.

If you think Mitchell isn't the reason the Jazz have this 11 game winning streak then frankly you aren't watching Jazz games. I understand though, very small market team in the west with late games. Who wants to watch Utah until 1 am on the east coast?

As a man who's watched every Jazz game this season, I can tell you without a doubt that Mitchell has literally dragged the Jazz through some muddy victories this season. And it's very impressive to see a rookie take over a team like he has.

They were 4-11 without Gobert and now 12-2 with him back (IIRC). He might have something to do with it.

Like, Mitchell has been playing great an all, but the return of Gobert certainly is a part of this. Not to mention Ingles has the highest net rating in the NBA in the win streak.

Thereís a lot going right for the Jazz right now. But continuing to talk about Mitchell without acknowledging what those other guys are bringing is disingenuous to whatís happening with the Jazz right now.

JAZZNC
02-15-2018, 10:58 AM
They were 4-11 without Gobert and now 12-2 with him back (IIRC). He might have something to do with it.

Like, Mitchell has been playing great an all, but the return of Gobert certainly is a part of this. Not to mention Ingles has the highest net rating in the NBA in the win streak.

Thereís a lot going right for the Jazz right now. But continuing to talk about Mitchell without acknowledging what those other guys are bringing is disingenuous to whatís happening with the Jazz right now.

It's just like how Simmons record without Embiid is trash. Or how Simmons assists aren't effected by the fact the he plays with a FAR superior offensive cast or that his rebounding numbers are probably better because he's 6-10 or posting links saying they are in the playoffs and the Jazz aren't even though there's just a few games difference in each team being in the 8 spot. I mean I already said Simmons should win but you guys acting like it's not even legimately close is a little ridiculous.

Giannis94
02-15-2018, 11:00 AM
If you replace Simmons with Mitchell, and say Mitchell is on the Jazz and Simmons on 76ers- would record change? Overall play?

More-Than-Most
02-15-2018, 11:03 AM
It's just like how Simmons record without Embiid is trash. Or how Simmons assists aren't effected by the fact the he plays with a FAR superior offensive cast or that his rebounding numbers are probably better because he's 6-10 or posting likes saying they are in the playoffs and the Jazz aren't even though there's just a few games difference in each team being in the 8 spot. I mean I already said Simmons should win but you guys acting like it's not even legimately close is a little ridiculous.

again see my post above... it breaks down how simmons has literally been better/more valuable all around in almost every single area by a bit.

Firefistus
02-15-2018, 11:54 AM
If you replace Simmons with Mitchell, and say Mitchell is on the Jazz and Simmons on 76ers- would record change? Overall play?

I would say the Jazz would be garbage with Simmons, they have a completely different situation and very much depend on having people that can hit three's on the floor. At the beginning of the year Rubio wasn't hitting his threes, and we had Gobert, Favors, and Rubio on the floor at the same time. It wasn't working AT ALL. The Jazz just couldn't score because every pick and roll would turn into the defense just staying in the paint letting Rubio try to shoot three pointers.

Simmons doesn't have a three pointer game and that would be devistating to Utah's system (who has the most open three pointers per game in the NBA)

So I would say yes, the records would change, I don't know how it would change for the 76ers, but Simmons wouldn't be in the running for RoY in Utah unless he suddenly learned how to shoot 3's.

(I'm NOT saying Simmons isn't as good by any means, I'm trying to insinuate that both players are in systems that work well for them)

TheDish87
02-15-2018, 11:57 AM
It's just like how Simmons record without Embiid is trash. Or how Simmons assists aren't effected by the fact the he plays with a FAR superior offensive cast or that his rebounding numbers are probably better because he's 6-10 or posting links saying they are in the playoffs and the Jazz aren't even though there's just a few games difference in each team being in the 8 spot. I mean I already said Simmons should win but you guys acting like it's not even legimately close is a little ridiculous.

well Vegas hasnt thought it was close all season, that holds weight. Its not even knock, its just reality.

TheDish87
02-15-2018, 11:59 AM
I would say the Jazz would be garbage with Simmons, they have a completely different situation and very much depend on having people that can hit three's on the floor. At the beginning of the year Rubio wasn't hitting his threes, and we had Gobert, Favors, and Rubio on the floor at the same time. It wasn't working AT ALL. The Jazz just couldn't score because every pick and roll would turn into the defense just staying in the paint letting Rubio try to shoot three pointers.

Simmons doesn't have a three pointer game and that would be devistating to Utah's system (who has the most open three pointers per game in the NBA)

So I would say yes, the records would change, I don't know how it would change for the 76ers, but Simmons wouldn't be in the running for RoY in Utah unless he suddenly learned how to shoot 3's.

(I'm NOT saying Simmons isn't as good by any means, I'm trying to insinuate that both players are in systems that work well for them)

Eh the Jazz might not be any better with simmons but hed prob have similar stats i think and the fav for ROY just probably less of a fav. Simmons is our pg so Mitchell does nothing for us either

Giannis94
02-15-2018, 12:15 PM
Eh the Jazz might not be any better with simmons but hed prob have similar stats i think and the fav for ROY just probably less of a fav. Simmons is our pg so Mitchell does nothing for us either

But if you have Mitchell isntead of Belly, then he does, no?

TheDish87
02-15-2018, 12:26 PM
thats like saying if the Jazz had Simmons instead of Rubio but thats not the question. I dont think anyone doubts Mitchell and Simmons would fit really well together.

Giannis94
02-15-2018, 12:38 PM
thats like saying if the Jazz had Simmons instead of Rubio but thats not the question. I dont think anyone doubts Mitchell and Simmons would fit really well together.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you had mitchell instead of simmons, you probably don't acquire belly on a buyout

TheDish87
02-15-2018, 12:39 PM
i dont see why we wouldnt or how thats related to the discussion?

Giannis94
02-15-2018, 12:44 PM
i dont see why we wouldnt or how thats related to the discussion?

I got off track. But you said Mitchell doesn't do anything for you. I assumed that you were talking about your roster right now. Because sure, with Belly at SG, who is a passable player, maybe not. But at the start of the season or before the season when the swap would have occured- then his outside shooting does, no?

My bad. I should have clarified better

Chronz
02-15-2018, 12:45 PM
Doesn't make me like the stupid rule. If you take a college player and pay millions for him to have trainers and full time coaching for a year and then put them in competition with someone who has had to balance working on their body/game with school work on a shoestring budget ... that's not even close to reasonable. Simmons should be excluded.

When you lay it down like that, really makes me want to never mention Blake's roy campaign

TheDish87
02-15-2018, 01:21 PM
I got off track. But you said Mitchell doesn't do anything for you. I assumed that you were talking about your roster right now. Because sure, with Belly at SG, who is a passable player, maybe not. But at the start of the season or before the season when the swap would have occured- then his outside shooting does, no?

My bad. I should have clarified better

starting the season with Mitchell and not Simmons? i dont see how we would be better if we are assuming Fultz situation remains the same. Our starting point guard would be TJ and as much as i adore him that would be a nightmare in that role. I was saying a swap doesnt benefit either team due to the construction of the teams but that Simmons would still be ROY fav

TheDish87
02-23-2018, 09:46 AM
ltest odds from Bovada have Simmons 2/5 favorite to Mitchell 17/10.

yeah, its close. lol

sixer04fan
02-23-2018, 09:46 AM
Wait. I thought Simmons was supposed to be a bust because he didnít make the NCAA tournament. And he made a documentary while he was in college so that somehow made him a terrible person.

How is it possible that heís actually really good? I donít get it

Jamiecballer
02-23-2018, 10:53 AM
Mitchell is tied in 5th among 4th quarter points scored per game this year. He's also the ONLY rookie ever to lead a team in ppg during an 11 game winning streak. No one has ever done that.

If you think Mitchell isn't the reason the Jazz have this 11 game winning streak then frankly you aren't watching Jazz games. I understand though, very small market team in the west with late games. Who wants to watch Utah until 1 am on the east coast?

As a man who's watched every Jazz game this season, I can tell you without a doubt that Mitchell has literally dragged the Jazz through some muddy victories this season. And it's very impressive to see a rookie take over a team like he has.I think he is definitely an impressive rookie and I'm equally impressed with this narrative.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Giannis94
03-16-2018, 11:44 AM
And like that, we have a 2 horse race! Simmons has opened up the race. not a doubt in my mind.

More-Than-Most
03-16-2018, 11:51 AM
lol a 2 horse race... hey if last years screwing taught me anything i hope and pray mitch wins it so simmons can do what super dario the best rookie last year is doing now.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22785590/ben-simmons-philadelphia-76ers-joins-magic-johnson-oscar-robertson-only-rookies-1000-500-500-club

warfelg
03-16-2018, 12:01 PM
I don't know if Simmons will run away with it, but Mitchell will come close

I think it will be close but when you have ties Magic for the second most Triple Doubles as a rookie thatís hard to deny. FWIW Vegas put the U/O at .5; heís at 8.

rayden
03-16-2018, 12:04 PM
I don't know if Simmons will run away with it, but Mitchell will come close

Giannis94
03-16-2018, 12:10 PM
lol a 2 horse race... hey if last years screwing taught me anything i hope and pray mitch wins it so simmons can do what super dario the best rookie last year is doing now.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22785590/ben-simmons-philadelphia-76ers-joins-magic-johnson-oscar-robertson-only-rookies-1000-500-500-club

Broggy is injured otherwise he'd be ****ing dominating everyone in the NBA. You're a 76ers fan. So I expect you to understand "injuries" and give it a few years before you make any further irrational comments.

Giannis94
03-16-2018, 12:11 PM
I think it will be close but when you have ties Magic for the second most Triple Doubles as a rookie thatís hard to deny. FWIW Vegas put the U/O at .5; heís at 8.

And I didn't bump this thread to say Mitchell would run away with it. I think it's closer than everyone was anticipating especially say in DEC/JAN.

More-Than-Most
03-16-2018, 09:25 PM
another insane performance.... 21/12/9/3 with only 2 turnovers and 58pct shooting... but yo... its close

Giannis94
03-16-2018, 09:35 PM
another insane performance.... 21/12/9/3 with only 2 turnovers and 58pct shooting... but yo... its close

How boit his last few games? He was playing vs Kobe light tonight. And lord knows kobe didn't play any defense except for In court proceedings.

TheDish87
03-19-2018, 10:52 AM
And I didn't bump this thread to say Mitchell would run away with it. I think it's closer than everyone was anticipating especially say in DEC/JAN.

it never was all that close and still isnt

Giannis94
03-19-2018, 10:54 AM
another insane performance.... 21/12/9/3 with only 2 turnovers and 58pct shooting... but yo... its close

Next time anyone goes 4/5 shooting I am declaring that an INSANE PERFORMANCE and GOAT status.

Giannis94
03-19-2018, 08:57 PM
Nights like tonight are nights why Mitchell has made it close.

More-Than-Most
03-19-2018, 09:13 PM
just an 11/12/15 performance with 3 steals and 0 turnovers from ben simmons... 3 triple doubles in his last 4 games.

More-Than-Most
03-19-2018, 09:14 PM
Nights like tonight are nights why Mitchell has made it close.

:laugh:

Giannis94
03-19-2018, 09:25 PM
:laugh:

Didn't see pts and rebounds. But **** it. No one cares about those stats. Hardens going to win mvp for that reason. So I assume dmitch should make it close as long as he continues to score.

MTA12
03-20-2018, 02:43 AM
Simmons would've had to be head above shoulders to garner roty from me like Griffin was in his rookie campaign and he's just not. Unfortunate for Ben but Donovan truly deserves it.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 07:30 AM
Simmons would've had to be head above shoulders to garner roty from me like Griffin was in his rookie campaign and he's just not. Unfortunate for Ben but Donovan truly deserves it.

Other than scoring what has Mitchell been better at?

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 07:41 AM
Other than scoring what has Mitchell been better at?

Quite obvious. His team has a better record in a tougher West where two games will drop you out of the playoffs whereas Sixers could lose 7 straight games and still be in the playoffs. Simmons would not be able to replicate what Donovan has been doing for the Jazz just by dropping rebounds and assists. Donovan is scoring when the Jazz really need him to do so and he's been great at it. The guy has been very clutch for them. He's not as talented as Ben is with the passing and overall ability but it's tough to not give it to him when he's been arguably the Jazz best player in a Western Conference where some teams have THREE All-Stars and Jazz have ZERO.

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 07:41 AM
Simmons would've had to be head above shoulders to garner roty from me like Griffin was in his rookie campaign and he's just not. Unfortunate for Ben but Donovan truly deserves it.

lol no

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 07:41 AM
Other than shooting what has Mitchell been better at?

fixed

Mitchell scores just 3 more point a game on 4 more shots

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 07:44 AM
Quite obvious. His team has a better record in a tougher West where two games will drop you out of the playoffs whereas Sixers could lose 7 straight games and still be in the playoffs. Simmons would not be able to replicate what Donovan has been doing for the Jazz just by dropping rebounds and assists. Donovan is scoring when the Jazz really need him to do so and he's been great at it. The guy has been very clutch for them. He's not as talented as Ben is with the passing and overall ability but it's tough to not give it to him when he's been arguably the Jazz best player in a Western Conference where some teams have THREE All-Stars and Jazz have ZERO.

lol this is the worst argument. if Simmons doesnt win ROY (he 1000% will) it would be the biggest robbery of all time for the award.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 07:47 AM
lol this is the worst argument. if Simmons doesnt win ROY (he 1000% will) it would be the biggest robbery of all time for the award.

And you've made no arguments because all you do is use generic statements. Good for you. I'm glad you're here. And FYI, I don't care who wins ROTY. Simmons definitely has a case but to say Donovan isn't deserving of it is quite silly considering the team success Donovan has been generating. It will come down to this last month where Jazz can still move up the seeding. If they're the third seed, how do you deny Donovan when he's the one leading them there? Seriously, look how stack some of these WC teams are.. then tell me the Jazz isn't surprising you. We all knew Sixers were going to be a playoff team once Embiid and Simmons were healthy. No one expected the Jazz to be this good without Hayward.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 07:50 AM
fixed

Mitchell scores just 3 more point a game on 4 more shots

fixed:

Mitchell plays in a stacked WC where guards have to be exceptionally great every night or they lose the game vs the elite guards on the opposing team.

Come talk to me when Simmons is playing elite guards night after night the way Mitchell has to.

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 07:53 AM
And you've made no arguments because all you do is use generic statements. Good for you. I'm glad you're here. And FYI, I don't care who wins ROTY. Simmons definitely has a case but to say Donovan isn't deserving of it is quite silly considering the team success Donovan has been generating. It will come down to this last month where Jazz can still move up the seeding. If they're the third seed, how do you deny Donovan when he's the one leading them there? Seriously, look how stack some of these WC teams are.. then tell me the Jazz isn't surprising you. We all knew Sixers were going to be a playoff team once Embiid and Simmons were healthy. No one expected the Jazz to be this good without Hayward.

youre not making an argument. everything you said is subjective. basically you think the Jazz are better then the Sixers (theyre not) and bcuz they play in the west Mithcell should win. Team record has nothing to do with ROY anyway. you jsut go out of your way to hate on the sixers. seriously every single time.

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 07:53 AM
fixed:

Mitchell plays in a stacked WC where guards have to be exceptionally great every night or they lose the game vs the elite guards on the opposing team.

Come talk to me when Simmons is playing elite guards night after night the way Mitchell has to.

thank you for proving my point of your own subjective bias.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 08:21 AM
Quite obvious. His team has a better record in a tougher West where two games will drop you out of the playoffs whereas Sixers could lose 7 straight games and still be in the playoffs. Simmons would not be able to replicate what Donovan has been doing for the Jazz just by dropping rebounds and assists. Donovan is scoring when the Jazz really need him to do so and he's been great at it. The guy has been very clutch for them. He's not as talented as Ben is with the passing and overall ability but it's tough to not give it to him when he's been arguably the Jazz best player in a Western Conference where some teams have THREE All-Stars and Jazz have ZERO.

Yet the Jazz were under .500 when Gobert has been out, and in their recent surge Joe Ingles has been shooting 45+% from 3.

We give Mitchell way too much credit. He's 248th in the league in TS%. So often guys would get ripped for a 54.3% TS%, yet Mitchell get's a pass because he scores. 19.9 PPG on 17 shots.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 08:23 AM
youre not making an argument. everything you said is subjective. basically you think the Jazz are better then the Sixers (theyre not) and bcuz they play in the west Mithcell should win. Team record has nothing to do with ROY anyway. you jsut go out of your way to hate on the sixers. seriously every single time.

The Jazz are "better" but lost to us both times. Also 14-14 against Eastern Conference teams. :laugh:

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 08:56 AM
youre not making an argument. everything you said is subjective. basically you think the Jazz are better then the Sixers (theyre not) and bcuz they play in the west Mithcell should win. Team record has nothing to do with ROY anyway. you jsut go out of your way to hate on the sixers. seriously every single time.

Your argument is strictly based off stats. My argument is that Donovan has been playing tougher opponents in the West. Are you really denying that the West isn't tougher in the guard position? Seriously, go make that argument and reveal how lame your takes are. Yeah, I totally hate the Sixers. I was one of the first to proclaim Ben the ROTY until Donovan started lighting up the league. But yeah, I'm a Sixers hater. News Alert: Anyone who says Embiid has injury problems and Ben isn't ROTY is a Sixers hater. Be warned, TheDish87 says so.


Yet the Jazz were under .500 when Gobert has been out, and in their recent surge Joe Ingles has been shooting 45+% from 3.

We give Mitchell way too much credit. He's 248th in the league in TS%. So often guys would get ripped for a 54.3% TS%, yet Mitchell get's a pass because he scores. 19.9 PPG on 17 shots.

Sixers record without Embiid = 3-8. It's not helping your case with this silly argument. Ben Simmons is 55 TS%. Again, you are not helping your case. Ben Simmons might do more but his shot selection is very limited compared to Donovan Mitchell. They're two entirely different players.. When Ben can shoot the ball, he will be a top 20 player. Too bad he can't, yet.


The Jazz are "better" but lost to us both times. Also 14-14 against Eastern Conference teams. :laugh:

War, you're not stupid. You and I both know head 2 head matchups don't determine the better team.

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 08:59 AM
in what ****ing world is 19/3/3 on 16 shots a night with a 28% usg lighting up the league and 16/8/8 on 12 shots and 22% usg not? done with this one.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 09:00 AM
You know Sixers fans are getting out of control when warfelg (who is usually calm) starts trolling with TheDish87 and uses horrible arguments like H2H matchups to determine who the better team is. I guess OKC is better than the Warriors.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 09:17 AM
in what ****ing world is 19/3/3 on 16 shots a night with a 28% usg lighting up the league and 16/8/8 on 12 shots and 22% usg not? done with this one.

Because you're not reading correctly. I wouldn't expect different from some guy who claims to be a Sixers fan but only started showing up after they got a healthy Ben Simmons and Embiid. Where were you all these other years where Sixers were tanking? Oh, I guess you just had the sudden urge to proclaim your Sixers spirit.

Read first, type second. I said, UNTIL. Donovan had a rough first two months. He's been a 22 PPG scorer since December on 47% shooting. Of course his USG% will be high... Look at the team he's on. They just lost two of their top scorers last season and they brought in a rookie to be their scorer.. He's a shooting guard. No one else on this team can create their own shot consistently like Donovan can. Do you guys even know what you're talking about? warfelg might but TheDish87 is an absolute mockery of a basketball fan. This guy just rambles on about nonsense with zero basketball insight. Ben Simmons is not even the 2nd leading scorer on his team. The guy has a different responsibility so obviously his USG% will be LOWER. Use your brain, dude. I love how you keep comparing these two as if they are playing the same role. I never once mentioned stats because a guy like Simmons in today's league will continue pumping up stats. The league today is built for it and as Tredigs said in another thread, triple double stats has never been easier. What matters to me is the guy who is playing in a stacked conference with high quality guards every night and has been leading his team to a fricking 18-3 record the past 21 games where three games puts them out of the playoffs. Think about that. Jazz could have gone 15-6 (elite level record) and be out of the playoffs. Your Sixers team could lose the next five games and still be in the playoffs. There's a different level of competition these guys are going up against in a race in which EVERY game literally matters. Sixers don't have that pressure. As I've said before, I don't care who wins ROTY. This is honestly an award that could disappear tomorrow and no one would care. But my personal opinion is that while Ben has been pumping up stats and has been the most consistent player this season for a rookie, Donovan has been great as well and is doing so in a conference where quality guards are needed to take your team to the next level. He's doing that. Jazz have a better record than they should. No one would have expected the playoffs for them when the season began. I mean, who did they replace Gordon Hayward with?

warfelg
03-20-2018, 09:26 AM
Not trolling. If the Jazz are better in a tougher west they should be better than .500 in the east.

And Iím aware I brought up things that you can do the same with the Sixers. Because if you want to say that Simmons isnít doing it alone then neither is Mitchell! You canít hold a sub .500 record without Embiid against Simmons but not do the same for Mitchell without Gobert.

You canít get so focused on heís a scorer on a west playoff team. Simmons contributes far more to the Sixers because of his passing, rebounding, and putting up better defense. You talk about Mitchell playing hard defensive assignments. But nothing about Simmons playing damn near elite defense as a near 7í player against all guards.

If you want to say that I make points that donít really help; some of yours do the same.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 09:32 AM
Flash let me ask you something. You seem to be putting a big emphasis on scoring and role. So then Saric was your ROY (top scorer and top option for a good chunk of the season on a bad Sixers team) and Harden was your MVP (top option on a better team scoring more PPG), right?

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 09:44 AM
Not trolling. If the Jazz are better in a tougher west they should be better than .500 in the east.

And Iím aware I brought up things that you can do the same with the Sixers. Because if you want to say that Simmons isnít doing it alone then neither is Mitchell! You canít hold a sub .500 record without Embiid against Simmons but not do the same for Mitchell without Gobert.

You canít get so focused on heís a scorer on a west playoff team. Simmons contributes far more to the Sixers because of his passing, rebounding, and putting up better defense. You talk about Mitchell playing hard defensive assignments. But nothing about Simmons playing damn near elite defense as a near 7í player against all guards.

If you want to say that I make points that donít really help; some of yours do the same.

1) Point out where I've made the argument that Mitchell's TS% was relevant here? The guy's TS% sucks because he's shooting threes. Why does Ben Simmons's TS% suck when he shoots zero threes? The guy can't hit FT's. That's a completely different problem. When your offensive player can't shoot threes or knock FT's down, that's not a good sign. Thankfully, Simmons doesn't have to worry about that because all he would have to do is pass the ball to Embiid and watch The Dream Shake 2.0 happen. Who can Donovan rely on to do that? Ingles is a very fine player but those two are the Jazz's best shooters. Donovan has to simply work harder for his shots because they are limited offensively.

2) Donovan needs Gobert just as much as Simmons needs Embiid. You're the one who brought up that silly argument and caught yourself into that ditch. Gobert is a DPOY player. You take him or Mitchell out, that team doesn't make the playoffs. Same with Philly. So why should Mitchell be penalized?

So how are the Sixers that bad of a record if they have two elite defenders on the team? That's a very troubling sign for them. Simmons, as I've said, plays an entirely different position. You keep talking about these rebounding and assists stats. Dude, Simmons will beat out A LOT of players in that category. Like I've explained to you, context matters a lot. Being on a team where you're allowed to play to your comfort level helps. Ben isn't the one expected to carry that team.. it's Embiid. And we all know it. Cut the crap out, Sixers go as far as Embiid takes them. But let's keep your assists/rebounds argument. Ben Simmons contributes far more to the Sixers because of his passing, rebound, and putting up better defense. Okay: Ben Simmons beats out Curry, Lillard, CJ McCollum, Kyrie Irving, DeMar DeRozan, and Kyle Lowry in that department as well. Is Ben better than any of those players?

We can broaden this area if you want: Ben Simmons beats out PG, KD, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Oladipo, Gordon Hayward, and many others if we just include rebounds/assists.

Listen, it's an overrated feature. Players are averaging triple doubles (RWB) but he's not even CLOSE to being the best player in the NBA. Ben Simmons is a superstar talent but if your only argument is that he contributes more because he grabs more rebounds and assists, you've already lost because he beats MANY players in that category but you won't admit he is a better player than any of the players I've mentioned above. If Simmons contributes more, please explain to me why he has a poor record without Embiid but Donovan Mitchell (who sucked in the first two months of basketball) still managed to have a better record without Gobert compared to Simmons without Embiid. Ben Simmons isn't expected to dominate games like Embiid does for the team. Donovan is expected, right now, to lead his team to the playoffs. These two are playing for two different things right now.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 09:53 AM
Flash let me ask you something. You seem to be putting a big emphasis on scoring and role. So then Saric was your ROY (top scorer and top option for a good chunk of the season on a bad Sixers team) and Harden was your MVP (top option on a better team scoring more PPG), right?

1) That ROTY season was terrible after Embiid got injured. I don't care who would've won it but Saric was a top scorer on terrible efficiency. Brogdon was a much more efficient scorer. I don't get your point in regards to this. That was a very weak Eastern Conference.. was Brogdon doing what Donovan is doing vs the West?

2) Actually, Harden didn't lead the league in PPG last season. He was the top option on a better team because his roster was built for a player in today's system. If you check our roster last season, it was just poor because KD left such a void on our team to where it's not easy to replace a guy like him when you've built him into the system for seven seasons. I had Russ winning because he was putting up extraordinary effort and numbers every night. It's just our team wasn't able to muster up the same impact once Russ was off the floor. But I've also said Harden has just as much of a case because his team is winning more games and that's certainly a valid argument. But FYI, ROTY and MVP are judged entirely different. ROTY has almost never used W/L as the main factor because the best rookies usually go to poor teams. So I'm not sure why you're trying to focus on two different awards that are voted on differently.

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 09:55 AM
Flash let me ask you something. You seem to be putting a big emphasis on scoring and role. So then Saric was your ROY (top scorer and top option for a good chunk of the season on a bad Sixers team) and Harden was your MVP (top option on a better team scoring more PPG), right?

just block hm, its easier. he doesnt use logic. he uses his own weird bias.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 10:02 AM
Warfelg, do me a favor and look up the West standings. If the Jazz seriously lost three games, they would be in the tenth seed. Even after their 18-3 record the past 21 games, could you imagine if this team somehow played 60% ball during that stretch (which is higher than their W/L record currently?)? They would be out of the playoff picture. So you have to give Donovan an extraordinary amount of credit for being the leader of this team at such a young age with the massive amount of responsibility he has. Their past 21 games, nine wins have come against playoff teams. They aren't beating just scrubs. They are winning games that are tough to win. Every game matters for them even AFTER their 18-3 stretch. None of us are Jazz fans but if you're a fan of your own team and your team is being led by a rookie and you go on a 18-3 run, you have to admit that this damn rookie deserves MUCH more credit than he is getting. Look, the boring and easy answer is Simmons because he has the nice numbers. But I've explained to you, I value the guy who just has more load. That's just the facts. Simmons gets easier assists because he has a guy in Embiid who he can feed it to. Gobert is a very fine defensive player but he's no Embiid on the offensive weapon. With Hood out, there is no one to pass the ball to other than Ingles who can knock down threes. And even without Hood, they're still winning games. This is a team that lost Hayward and Hill and replaced them with Donovan and Rubio. If no one will make a case for Donovan, I will. Because in a league today where stats are the only thing that matters to some people and the fancy triple doubles are NEWS, it's the players like Donovan who go unnoticed.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 10:04 AM
just block hm, its easier. he doesnt use logic. he uses his own weird bias.

Good, so you blocked me. Saves me the trouble of having to navigate to your profile and doing the same. I'd prefer that anyways. You've never engaged yourself in a basketball discussion. All you do is string out generic sentences that leave nothing to be discussed. Funny how Sixers have sucked for so many consecutive years but this guy somehow decided that 2016 (when they get Ben and healthy Embiid) is the year he is a Sixers fan.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 10:06 AM
TheDish87 brings up USG% when comparing a pass-first PG to a score-first SG.. this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Thank God he put me on ignore so I don't have to tolerate this guy calling everyone who disagrees with Sixers logic a hater.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 11:58 AM
Warfelg, do me a favor and look up the West standings. If the Jazz seriously lost three games, they would be in the tenth seed. Even after their 18-3 record the past 21 games, could you imagine if this team somehow played 60% ball during that stretch (which is higher than their W/L record currently?)? They would be out of the playoff picture. So you have to give Donovan an extraordinary amount of credit for being the leader of this team at such a young age with the massive amount of responsibility he has. Their past 21 games, nine wins have come against playoff teams. They aren't beating just scrubs. They are winning games that are tough to win. Every game matters for them even AFTER their 18-3 stretch. None of us are Jazz fans but if you're a fan of your own team and your team is being led by a rookie and you go on a 18-3 run, you have to admit that this damn rookie deserves MUCH more credit than he is getting. Look, the boring and easy answer is Simmons because he has the nice numbers. But I've explained to you, I value the guy who just has more load. That's just the facts. Simmons gets easier assists because he has a guy in Embiid who he can feed it to. Gobert is a very fine defensive player but he's no Embiid on the offensive weapon. With Hood out, there is no one to pass the ball to other than Ingles who can knock down threes. And even without Hood, they're still winning games. This is a team that lost Hayward and Hill and replaced them with Donovan and Rubio. If no one will make a case for Donovan, I will. Because in a league today where stats are the only thing that matters to some people and the fancy triple doubles are NEWS, it's the players like Donovan who go unnoticed.

Ok so you value scoring and nothing else really matters?

And this is why is asked if Harden and Saric should have won last year. Because if the argument is scoring matter more than having a larger overall impact (Sorry not sorry but assists and rebounds have as big of an impact as scoring); then those two should have easily won the award if scoring was the only thing that mattered.

Thereís a site out there, I think Nylon Calculus, that talks about ďtotal points addedĒ. It takes all points scored, points off assists, and second chance points, to show how much of an impact some players can have. Using that, offensively Ben blows Donovan out of the water.

Again Iíve seen you admit it a few times that they are wildly different players. Really different effects on the offense.

So why are we looking at one singular thing (scoring) as opposed to overall impact.

I donít want to make it sound like I hate Mitchell or whatever, but Scoring is the only place heís shown to be the slightest bit better.

So if Ben is having a broader impact on his team, even if he isnít the #1 scoring option, it still makes him better.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 12:36 PM
there are people that get to actually vote on this that have said its not close lol. lets be clear here.... it honestly wont be close.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 12:41 PM
the thing that actually makes this even more adorable is ben has been a much better defender than Mitch as well lol.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 12:45 PM
https://hoopshabit.com/2018/03/19/philadelphia-76ers-ben-simmons-show-continues/

i mean people please just stop... stop arguing... its over. There isnt a statistic that points to mitchell.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 12:49 PM
you also cant make the argument about playing in a tougher conference because not only is utah 0-2 vs us and 14-14 vs the east the sixers have had the harder SOS

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/ranking/schedule-strength-by-other

phila and utah neck and neck in SOS but again if one is trying to use conference you are just being delusional.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 12:53 PM
Ok so you value scoring and nothing else really matters?

And this is why is asked if Harden and Saric should have won last year. Because if the argument is scoring matter more than having a larger overall impact (Sorry not sorry but assists and rebounds have as big of an impact as scoring); then those two should have easily won the award if scoring was the only thing that mattered.

Thereís a site out there, I think Nylon Calculus, that talks about ďtotal points addedĒ. It takes all points scored, points off assists, and second chance points, to show how much of an impact some players can have. Using that, offensively Ben blows Donovan out of the water.

Again Iíve seen you admit it a few times that they are wildly different players. Really different effects on the offense.

So why are we looking at one singular thing (scoring) as opposed to overall impact.

I donít want to make it sound like I hate Mitchell or whatever, but Scoring is the only place heís shown to be the slightest bit better.

So if Ben is having a broader impact on his team, even if he isnít the #1 scoring option, it still makes him better.

I'm not looking at a single thing. I'm looking at expectations, difficulty, reliance, and amount of effort required. Be honest, Ben is not the focal point of the Sixers. The guy may have insane talent but he's not the one relied on to lead the team. Donovan, on his rookie season, is already on that pedestal on a stacked western conference that I don't even have to mention has been brutal all year long. If Donovan doesn't score, who does? Ben can pass and rebound but look at who he is passing to.. Joel Embiid is automatic in many areas of the court. Donovan has much less to work with. And IDK why you're talking about scoring still in regards to Saric and Harden. Not every award is the same. Saric was inefficient as hell and the story (which matters in MVP cases) was heightened with KD's departure and Russ putting in a triple double season (first since Big O). I'm just stating my case for Donovan. This isn't about who the voters are voting. I find it impressive that Donovan has led his team to a (correcting myself here, a 19-2 record the past 21 games). 19-2! In the WEST. Where seven games is the difference from 3rd to 9th seed. Simmons is a great at putting up the numbers but who expected the Jazz to make the playoffs and Donovan to be averaging 23 points since December? We all expected this from Simmons. Btw, he's had the extra NBA year of experience but I won't use that against him. I don't think players who have been injured should qualify next season.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 12:55 PM
you also cant make the argument about playing in a tougher conference because not only is utah 0-2 vs us and 14-14 vs the east the sixers have had the harder SOS

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/ranking/schedule-strength-by-other

phila and utah neck and neck in SOS but again if one is trying to use conference you are just being delusional.

And you guys have a lesser record vs West than East so what does that prove? The West is better than the East. Do you agree or disagree? It's an easy question. Idc about this SOS stuff because what happens is people with nothing better to do try and equate everything into numbers. Not everything is mathematically proven just by bunching up numbers. By that logic, none of us need to watch NBA because these numbers will sum up everything.

TheDish87
03-20-2018, 12:59 PM
you also cant make the argument about playing in a tougher conference because not only is utah 0-2 vs us and 14-14 vs the east the sixers have had the harder SOS

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/ranking/schedule-strength-by-other

phila and utah neck and neck in SOS but again if one is trying to use conference you are just being delusional.

shame there is no award for east/west then Mitchell could win it for the conf. lolol

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 12:59 PM
shame there is no award for east/west then Mitchell could win it for the conf. lolol

-Sixers fan since Ben Simmons was announced as the draft selection.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 01:11 PM
And you guys have a lesser record vs West than East so what does that prove? The West is better than the East. Do you agree or disagree? It's an easy question. Idc about this SOS stuff because what happens is people with nothing better to do try and equate everything into numbers. Not everything is mathematically proven just by bunching up numbers. By that logic, none of us need to watch NBA because these numbers will sum up everything.

when literally all the numbers point in 1 direction the numbers are easily everything :shrug:

advanced stats/regular stats/team stats... it literally all points to ben simmons.


also we are 2 games over 500 against the west and the jazz are 10

warfelg
03-20-2018, 01:23 PM
I'm not looking at a single thing. I'm looking at expectations, difficulty, reliance, and amount of effort required. Be honest, Ben is not the focal point of the Sixers. The guy may have insane talent but he's not the one relied on to lead the team. Donovan, on his rookie season, is already on that pedestal on a stacked western conference that I don't even have to mention has been brutal all year long. If Donovan doesn't score, who does? Ben can pass and rebound but look at who he is passing to.. Joel Embiid is automatic in many areas of the court. Donovan has much less to work with. And IDK why you're talking about scoring still in regards to Saric and Harden. Not every award is the same. Saric was inefficient as hell and the story (which matters in MVP cases) was heightened with KD's departure and Russ putting in a triple double season (first since Big O). I'm just stating my case for Donovan. This isn't about who the voters are voting. I find it impressive that Donovan has led his team to a (correcting myself here, a 19-2 record the past 21 games). 19-2! In the WEST. Where seven games is the difference from 3rd to 9th seed. Simmons is a great at putting up the numbers but who expected the Jazz to make the playoffs and Donovan to be averaging 23 points since December? We all expected this from Simmons. Btw, he's had the extra NBA year of experience but I won't use that against him. I don't think players who have been injured should qualify next season.

And through there you hit on the issue Iím having with the argument:
Ben has Embiid.

Zilch about how Mitchell is playing with the DPOY (IMO); nothing about how over their streak Ingles has been the best 3-pt shooter in the NBA; nada about how Rubio is shooting his best.

Itís all about Mitchell and nothing about how they guys around him are also playing at high levels.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 01:29 PM
And through there you hit on the issue Iím having with the argument:
Ben has Embiid.

Zilch about how Mitchell is playing with the DPOY (IMO); nothing about how over their streak Ingles has been the best 3-pt shooter in the NBA; nada about how Rubio is shooting his best.

Itís all about Mitchell and nothing about how they guys around him are also playing at high levels.

its not even close at this point... i love embiid but what gobert is doing on defense is insane.

JAZZNC
03-20-2018, 01:58 PM
its not even close at this point... i love embiid but what gobert is doing on defense is insane.

Nice to see that somebody is paying attention to Goberts D. If he doesn't get DPOY it's a mockery. Since he's come back from injury our D has been other worldy.

More-Than-Most
03-20-2018, 02:04 PM
Nice to see that somebody is paying attention to Goberts D. If he doesn't get DPOY it's a mockery. Since he's come back from injury our D has been other worldy.

its legit not close.... like there isnt another player right now that stops another team like this guy does.... gobert also doesnt let his pride get in the way like embiid does... embiid would probably be a distant 2nd or 3rd right now behind gobert which is fine because embiid is insane defensively but that just shows how god like gobert has been on defense this year..... embiids one isue is he tries to guard any and every position and he really needs to relax with that... he wants to dribble like a PG and defend PG but its just not beneficial to him or the team... gobert just dominates and if there is a weakness anywhere on defense he wont let another team exploit it by constantly going at it results be damned.

If he doesnt win DPOY something is seriously seriously wrong.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 02:06 PM
And through there you hit on the issue Iím having with the argument:
Ben has Embiid.

Zilch about how Mitchell is playing with the DPOY (IMO); nothing about how over their streak Ingles has been the best 3-pt shooter in the NBA; nada about how Rubio is shooting his best.

Itís all about Mitchell and nothing about how they guys around him are also playing at high levels.

1) Nada on how RoCo was shooting like Steph Curry on roids early on the season?
2) Nada on how a bad season of shooting for Reddick is 40% from the three? What a great shooter he is.
3) Nada on how TJ McConnell can come off the bench and give 10/5/5 on any given night?

I never said it was all about Mitchell. If anything, you're the one forgeting the luxury Simmons has. Years of tanking and all those quality players and you're trying to make it seem as if I'm the one ignoring Mitchell's teammates? You can bring up Gobert all you want but you and I both know you would take Embiid over Gobert ten times over. Don't make that mistake, warfelg. I'm not a Jazz fan. Go ask yourself why I would side with Donovan. Oh, I must be a Ben Simmons hater?

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?931472-1-4-Season-MVP-DPOY-and-ROY-rankings

Post #12.

I have no reason to side with Donovan. Since I'm such a LeBron fan, I'd probably want Ben to win a bit more just if I was being biased. But I honestly don't care. Embiid can do what Gobert does defensively but Gobert can't do a quarter of what Embiid can do defensively. And you mention Rubio as if he's not having one of the worst seasons of his career.. are you being serious or did you just Basketball reference > Utah Jazz > 2017-2018 > "Oh, Ricky Rubio. Bing." and assume I won't do the same and see he's been terrible? He's down on every advanced metric and his ast/to is the worst of his career by far. Shooting the best? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Do you do this with every player? He's shooting 32% from three. That's below league average for guards. In what world is that a good thing that Rubio is shooting his best when he's one of the worst shooters in the league? RoCo started off the season blazing hot. He's now down to 37% which is still great for a player shooting the three ball with that volume. How many times have you crapped on him lately for shooting the three like that? I know I've seen it many times. What a terrible argument.... "Ricky Rubio is shooting the best for his career. A whooping 32% from the field!" Seriously?

warfelg
03-20-2018, 02:22 PM
Nice to see that somebody is paying attention to Goberts D. If he doesn't get DPOY it's a mockery. Since he's come back from injury our D has been other worldy.

Oh itís been amazing. Iím absolutely amazed. And his missed time proves how good he is too.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 02:25 PM
Wow imagine that. I didnít bring up out 8th man, a streaky shooter, or the fact the Simmons assist numbers are down because a 3pt shooter is having a sub-average (for his career) year.

Man that makes the argument. Mitchell for ROY because of streaky players and the 8th man.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 02:25 PM
Wow imagine that. I didnít bring up out 8th man, a streaky shooter, or the fact the Simmons assist numbers are down because a 3pt shooter is having a sub-average (for his career) year.

Man that makes the argument. Mitchell for ROY because of streaky players and the 8th man.

Wow, you've convinced me of who you really are when Sixers are mentioned. See ya next time. Brings up Rubio shooting his best career % from three (even though it's false) when Rubio is shooting below league average but then claims I'm the one bringing up streaky shooters...?

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 02:27 PM
"Ben Simmons assists are down."

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/3907387/ben-simmons

Really? Shows that it's been better. I guess I'm just a hater.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 02:40 PM
Wow, you've convinced me of who you really are when Sixers are mentioned. See ya next time. Brings up Rubio shooting his best career % from three (even though it's false) when Rubio is shooting below league average but then claims I'm the one bringing up streaky shooters...?

You missed the key word I said about Rubio of ďlatelyĒ. Not all season but lately. But you do you.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 02:42 PM
"Ben Simmons assists are down."

http://www.espn.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/3907387/ben-simmons

Really? Shows that it's been better. I guess I'm just a hater.

Down from what they could be if RoCo wasnít in a slump or JJ was shooting below his career average (41.2 vs 41.4. Oh no!)

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 02:44 PM
You missed the key word I said about Rubio of ďlatelyĒ. Not all season but lately. But you do you.

"And through there you hit on the issue Iím having with the argument:
Ben has Embiid.

Zilch about how Mitchell is playing with the DPOY (IMO); nothing about how over their streak Ingles has been the best 3-pt shooter in the NBA; nada about how Rubio is shooting his best.

Itís all about Mitchell and nothing about how they guys around him are also playing at high levels."

Post #127 in case you think it's edited.

I don't see the word lately.


Down from what they could be if RoCo wasnít in a slump or JJ was shooting below his career average (41.2 vs 41.4. Oh no!)

I can say that for every single player in the NBA. Don't use this excuse. And it seems like a poor one to explain why Ben's assists haven't gone down after I proved it to you.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 02:50 PM
FWIW: Donovan Mitchell has no help even though Joe Ingles set a Jazz record for most 3ís made in a season. 10th in the nba this year in 3ís made

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 02:52 PM
FWIW: Donovan Mitchell has no help even though Joe Ingles set a Jazz record for most 3ís made in a season. 10th in the nba this year in 3ís made

You're just throwing stuff I never said onto this. I acknowledge Ingles before you ever even realized he was on the team. War, you're a good mod and a great poster but you've been terrible at this so far. You're accusing me of things I've never said and using arguments that you are now trying to defend to death after they have been proven to be false. You try and bring up Rubio and failed. You bring up Simmons APG being down when I just showed you it's improving. Then you try to defend that by saying, "it could be much higher." You bring up Gobert and I bring up Embiid and you have no counter. I say RoCo is shooting 37% from three shooting 7 shots per game. That's above league average. You bring up Harden and say he led the league in scoring last season.. false, but you continue trying to drive that narrative that I only value scoring when that's not the case. Just stop it, dude. Stop running off the discussion by using these stupid short 1-2 sentences summary of what you think I'm trying to say so you can make it seem as if my argument is based solely on that. You're like Cathy Newman right now. "Donovan has no help." "Donovan wins because streaky shooters and 8th man blah blah blah." No, I never said that. Quit posting nonsense and either discuss or go back to modding.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Iíll give you a challenge. Without saying conference, explain and prove that Donovan has been better. Thereís only 2 places. Scoring and on/off, and at that the Jazz are still a positive net without Mitchell.

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 02:56 PM
Iíll give you a challenge. Without saying conference, explain and prove that Donovan has been better. Thereís only 2 places. Scoring and on/off, and at that the Jazz are still a positive net without Mitchell.

I'm tired of explaining things to you. You'll end up doing this:

FWIW: Blah blah blah blah

You won't admit you've been incorrect numerous times and have no counter arguments to any of the rebuttals I've made. You've consistently said completely false statements the entire time.

"Harden led the league in scoring last year." No, he did not.
"Key word, I said "lately in reference to Rubio." No, you never said lately.
"Rubio is shooting his best." He's been shooting 27% from the field in this latest win streak.
"Ben Simmons APG is down." No, it's been up.

Why should I spend more time "debating" someone who just lies and then expects me to give another second into it?

FlashBolt
03-20-2018, 03:00 PM
I said I will stop posting a few posts ago. I will really do that now. For reference, you guys have numerous posts from me praising Ben and saying he is the ROTY. Things change and Donovan has impressed me more. None of you other than MTM (Shockingly here) has made any other argument worth reading into. Warfelg, usually a great poster, just has been lying nonstop and then resorting to fallacy tactics but wants to issue me a challenge in answering his question. Hah, no thanks. It's my personal opinion. I don't care who wins, end of story. And warfelg, read up on these past pages. You've been lying the entire time and trying to defend it even when it's proven false. Just stop it.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 03:26 PM
Sorry I have a job and canít randomly fact check whenever. Sorry I busted you on failing to acknowledge the play of Donovanís teammates while you keep using it as a reason against Ben. Iíve held for a while itís going to be close because of Donovanís scoring, but ultimately the overall impact of Ben is going to keep him in the lead. A lot of his other impacts on the team has him up there in the league for a few categories.

I asked about last years MVP race and ROY because the guy with better overall stats won, as opposed to the guy who was seen as a scorer. If you think Brogdon should have been ROY you put yourself in a pickle, because he wasnít a starter, and was the well rounded guy.

I like Donovan. I really do. Heís been really damn good as the leading scorer of the Jazz. But Ben has been better overall. And thatís why Ben should be ROY. If you want to discount his numbers because of Embiid I dunno what to say man. You do you and thatís about it at that point.

JAZZNC
03-20-2018, 04:35 PM
Oh itís been amazing. Iím absolutely amazed. And his missed time proves how good he is too.

I saw a stat somewhere that since he's come back the difference between our D and second place during that span is the same as the difference between 1st for the year and 10th for the year(It's a HUGE gap). He's playing out of this world since his return. I love how he stays within himself on both ends, those 20/14/3 games on 8 or 9 shots are just incredible. An aspect of his game that gets overlooked is that he can hit his free throws.

But this isn't a thread about Gobert Haha!

Simmons should win this award pretty easily. He's the better player but there are some things that need context....like rebounds, what does that matter when one guy should obviously be getting more?? Mitchell is the only guy on offense, yes Ingles hits 3's but he's not getting his own shot. Mitchell's assist #s wouldn't be what Simmons puts up but they'd very likely be better playing next to an Embiid. Would Simmons shoot as well if he had to be the only offensive option? If he had to bail the offense out at the end of the shot clock all the time?

I think the big difference comes on the defensive end. Simmons is better there period end of story and that's what really separates the 2 in my opinion. Donovan has the tools to be a good defender but we'll see if he can make that adjustment next year I suppose. I'm just happy that a late lottery pick has been able to get into the conversation with a blue chipper with all time great measureables and skillset.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 04:59 PM
I saw a stat somewhere that since he's come back the difference between our D and second place during that span is the same as the difference between 1st for the year and 10th for the year(It's a HUGE gap). He's playing out of this world since his return. I love how he stays within himself on both ends, those 20/14/3 games on 8 or 9 shots are just incredible. An aspect of his game that gets overlooked is that he can hit his free throws.

But this isn't a thread about Gobert Haha!

Quick lets make a DPOTY thread to drool over Gobert!


Simmons should win this award pretty easily. He's the better player but there are some things that need context....like rebounds, what does that matter when one guy should obviously be getting more?? Mitchell is the only guy on offense, yes Ingles hits 3's but he's not getting his own shot. Mitchell's assist #s wouldn't be what Simmons puts up but they'd very likely be better playing next to an Embiid. Would Simmons shoot as well if he had to be the only offensive option? If he had to bail the offense out at the end of the shot clock all the time?

Well that brings up a few things....should Simmons be obviously getting more because of size? They both spend a majority of their time defending wing players, so in straight theory they are fighting for rebounds from the same position. And if it were 1 or 2 rebounds difference I would agree a bit more. But it's a 4 reb per game difference. As far as the guy on offense: 63% of Mitchell's shots are unassisted, 66% of Ben's are unassisted. Embiid is about 50/50 assisted/unassisted as the next closest starter. Rubio is about 42/58 assisted/unassisted. So Mitchell does have a tad more help in another guy that can take the ball and break down his man. Now granted Embiid is much much better at it, Rubio just gets it on his own more frequently.

I think it's less Embiid that would make Mitchell's assist number go up, and more him being the solo guy to initiate offense from the wing. I say it like that because where it's started is important. TJ McConnell is the only other guy we have to start offense like that. I almost rather have Rubio for that.

I get asking if Ben would do as well if he didn't have other weapons. That's a very fair point of this. I could also flip and ask if Donovan would be as effective if defenders knew he was driving a majority of the time and only had a 15' range and fouling him didn't hurt you as bad on the scoreboard.

A strange thing with the Sixers and end of shotclock moments is Embiid being in changes things. And not in the "we have a guy to give it to". With Embiid in we move off ball better on offense. Like we run this cool downscreen thing where Simmons sits up top with the ball. JJ runs baseline like he's going to run off an Embiid pick, but JJ sets the pick for Embiid. And if the defenders go with Embiid, JJ rolls out for the corner three. For some reason we don't get any movement like that without Embiid. The backups are content to watch Ben do something and react to him beating his man.


I think the big difference comes on the defensive end. Simmons is better there period end of story and that's what really separates the 2 in my opinion. Donovan has the tools to be a good defender but we'll see if he can make that adjustment next year I suppose. I'm just happy that a late lottery pick has been able to get into the conversation with a blue chipper with all time great measureables and skillset.

Without a doubt that's were the conversation really splits to me. Ben and RoCo's wing defense has been a huge reason why our starting unit has been one of the best +/- units on the year. So many people roasted Ben's defense in college and was telling us the past year when he was out that he was going to be a turnstyle. Instead he's turned into a guy that can cover the 1-5 spots, create turnovers, and protect the rim, seemingly at the same time. His defense has me hard lol.

Firefistus
03-20-2018, 05:15 PM
Quick lets make a DPOTY thread to drool over Gobert!

NOW we're talking Jazz ball ;-)

Just a fun little stat.

The Warriors have their "Death Lineup" with a crazy high offensive rating.

The Jazz have one for defensive rating as well.

Gobert, Crowder, Ingles, Mitchell, Rubio. Def Rtg = 76.4, Offensive Rtg = 118.2

Ya, I think Crowder is fitting in our system pretty well =)

JAZZNC
03-20-2018, 07:37 PM
Quick lets make a DPOTY thread to drool over Gobert!



Well that brings up a few things....should Simmons be obviously getting more because of size? They both spend a majority of their time defending wing players, so in straight theory they are fighting for rebounds from the same position. And if it were 1 or 2 rebounds difference I would agree a bit more. But it's a 4 reb per game difference. As far as the guy on offense: 63% of Mitchell's shots are unassisted, 66% of Ben's are unassisted. Embiid is about 50/50 assisted/unassisted as the next closest starter. Rubio is about 42/58 assisted/unassisted. So Mitchell does have a tad more help in another guy that can take the ball and break down his man. Now granted Embiid is much much better at it, Rubio just gets it on his own more frequently.

I think it's less Embiid that would make Mitchell's assist number go up, and more him being the solo guy to initiate offense from the wing. I say it like that because where it's started is important. TJ McConnell is the only other guy we have to start offense like that. I almost rather have Rubio for that.

I get asking if Ben would do as well if he didn't have other weapons. That's a very fair point of this. I could also flip and ask if Donovan would be as effective if defenders knew he was driving a majority of the time and only had a 15' range and fouling him didn't hurt you as bad on the scoreboard.

A strange thing with the Sixers and end of shotclock moments is Embiid being in changes things. And not in the "we have a guy to give it to". With Embiid in we move off ball better on offense. Like we run this cool downscreen thing where Simmons sits up top with the ball. JJ runs baseline like he's going to run off an Embiid pick, but JJ sets the pick for Embiid. And if the defenders go with Embiid, JJ rolls out for the corner three. For some reason we don't get any movement like that without Embiid. The backups are content to watch Ben do something and react to him beating his man.



Without a doubt that's were the conversation really splits to me. Ben and RoCo's wing defense has been a huge reason why our starting unit has been one of the best +/- units on the year. So many people roasted Ben's defense in college and was telling us the past year when he was out that he was going to be a turnstyle. Instead he's turned into a guy that can cover the 1-5 spots, create turnovers, and protect the rim, seemingly at the same time. His defense has me hard lol.

Yeah, call it simplistic, but I'd fully expect the guy with PF size built like a brick **** house to get 4 more rebounds than an undersized 2 guard haha. Like I said earlier that doesn't sway the argument for me.

And man, come on comparing Rubio and Embiid saying that Mitchell has a guy who can create. Yeah Rubio has more makes on his own % wise but since Embiid makes twice as many shots per game that number is kinda useless.

Simmons is gonna win and he damn well should. Both these guys are in great positions to succeed and play to their strengths. I'm perfectly happy with what we've got in Mitchell and y'all are ecstatic with Simmons.

Now let's start that DPOY thread so we can prop my boy Rudy up some!

warfelg
03-20-2018, 07:42 PM
Yeah, call it simplistic, but I'd fully expect the guy with PF size built like a brick **** house to get 4 more rebounds than an undersized 2 guard haha. Like I said earlier that doesn't sway the argument for me.

And man, come on comparing Rubio and Embiid saying that Mitchell has a guy who can create. Yeah Rubio has more makes on his own % wise but since Embiid makes twice as many shots per game that number is kinda useless.

Simmons is gonna win and he damn well should. Both these guys are in great positions to succeed and play to their strengths. I'm perfectly happy with what we've got in Mitchell and y'all are ecstatic with Simmons.

Now let's start that DPOY thread so we can prop my boy Rudy up some!

Oh I admitted that the Embiid/Rubio thing is a bit unfair because of how much better Embiid is. I think it shows though how much is on Simmons to create even though he has Embiid.

And Iím with you. Mitchell is exciting. I do have my doubts of him long term being the guy but I do trust your GM more than ours.

JAZZNC
03-20-2018, 07:54 PM
He's definitely going to have to improve if he's gonna be a #1 type guy on a "contender". One thing he HAS to do is realise he has a freaking left hand. I still have no idea how a guy can make it this far and have absolutely no ability to use both hands. That will help him get his 2pt fg% up. Always finishing with his right hand ups his degree of difficulty in the paint a lot. He's gotta get the TO's down and get better on defense. But those are all things that can be improved. Next year will be very telling.

tp13baby
03-20-2018, 09:13 PM
Down from what they could be if RoCo wasnít in a slump or JJ was shooting below his career average (41.2 vs 41.4. Oh no!)

Roco slumping>Gary Harris.

Anyways Iíll take Mitchell. Best scorer on a team that most believed were on the outside looking in. Ben Simmons is Robin to embiid

bootsy
03-20-2018, 11:53 PM
Roco slumping>Gary Harris.

Anyways Iíll take Mitchell. Best scorer on a team that most believed were on the outside looking in. Ben Simmons is Robin to embiid

:rolleyes: OK and... so what.

warfelg
03-20-2018, 11:55 PM
Roco slumping>Gary Harris.

Anyways Iíll take Mitchell. Best scorer on a team that most believed were on the outside looking in. Ben Simmons is Robin to embiid

And last yearís winner was a bench player. Have issues with that?

MTA12
03-21-2018, 12:19 AM
lol no
Let me clarify that I do think that Ben is having a better season, but I still think the Mitchell deserves it more for having the best TRUE rookie season.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2018, 01:47 AM
Roco slumping>Gary Harris.

Anyways Iíll take Mitchell. Best scorer on a team that most believed were on the outside looking in. Ben Simmons is Robin to embiid

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goberru01.html


you do realize this dude is putting up 14/11 on 61 percent shooting while easily winning defensive player of the year right?

TheDish87
03-21-2018, 08:44 AM
Let me clarify that I do think that Ben is having a better season, but I still think the Mitchell deserves it more for having the best TRUE rookie season.

all Mithchell does better is shoot 3 and foul shots. Simmons is better in every other aspect of the game and its not even that close. there is a reason why Vegas has him a big favorite to win. being 'true rookie' has no meaning on this and isnt a thing. they are both in fact, rookies.

ewing
03-21-2018, 12:02 PM
Nice to see that somebody is paying attention to Goberts D. If he doesn't get DPOY it's a mockery. Since he's come back from injury our D has been other worldy.

He should win every year right now. He has been by far the most impactful defender in the league since they started playing him


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TheDish87
03-21-2018, 12:38 PM
MCW beat Burke. MCW had a decent/typical type season for a guard. Was Burke even in that race? i dont even remember.

Firefistus
03-21-2018, 12:40 PM
And last yearís winner was a bench player. Have issues with that?

Last time Utah had a Rookie of the Year was Trey Burke beating Michael Carter Williams out.....and they both sucked. So RoY isn't everything honestly. It's all about how hard they continue to work their entire career. I would definitely like to see a DPoY thread though, see who people think deserve the award. Throw Gobert out because of lack of games and who wins it? (honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he's DQ for not playing enough, in the last 10 years the DPoY award winner that missed the most games in the season was Kawhi Leonard at 16 I think it was, and Gobert missed over 20 this season.)

Raps08-09 Champ
03-21-2018, 12:49 PM
Simmons.

warfelg
03-21-2018, 12:53 PM
Last time Utah had a Rookie of the Year was Trey Burke beating Michael Carter Williams out.....and they both sucked.

MCW won that ROY....

JAZZNC
03-21-2018, 01:34 PM
MCW beat Burke. MCW had a decent/typical type season for a guard. Was Burke even in that race? i dont even remember.

Ugh, don't bring that up...still stings that we traded up and picked Burke and CJ McCollum went with the next pick. That **** hurts.

TheDish87
03-21-2018, 01:41 PM
CJ going the pick before us bummed me out too. He was my primary target at the time. I was cool MCW back then but we all know their paths lol

warfelg
03-21-2018, 06:56 PM
Here's a fun one:

If Ben were on the following franchises he would be the ALL TIME FRANCHISE leader for triple doubles:
LAC (Griffin/Odom 7); Mem (MGasol 4); ATL (Blaylock 7); Miami (LeBron 9); CHA (Mason 7); UTA (Pete Maravich 7); NYK (Michaek Ray Richardson 9); ORL (Elfrid Payton 8); Indy (Schrempf 6); Tor (Lowry 9)

MTA12
03-21-2018, 10:43 PM
Here's a fun one:

If Ben were on the following franchises he would be the ALL TIME FRANCHISE leader for triple doubles:
LAC (Griffin/Odom 7); Mem (MGasol 4); ATL (Blaylock 7); Miami (LeBron 9); CHA (Mason 7); UTA (Pete Maravich 7); NYK (Michaek Ray Richardson 9); ORL (Elfrid Payton 8); Indy (Schrempf 6); Tor (Lowry 9)

That's Crazy!

More-Than-Most
03-22-2018, 01:35 AM
sixers now have a better record than the Jazz.... The sixers now have the 4th seed in their conference and could finish ahead of the cavs for the 3rd seed.... I guess that now means yet another thing points in Bens favor?

sixer04fan
03-22-2018, 01:53 PM
sixers now have a better record than the Jazz.... The sixers now have the 4th seed in their conference and could finish ahead of the cavs for the 3rd seed.... I guess that now means yet another thing points in Bens favor?

No. The better record argument only applies when it helps Mitchellís case. If the Sixers finish with a better record, it wonít get mentioned.

sixer04fan
03-22-2018, 02:04 PM
The debate shouldnít be resorted to trying to bring the other player down. Itís such a dumb tactic. Both are great young exciting talents. Both can have great rookie seasons - theyíre not mutually exclusive events lol. We can root for both players to succeed. So whatís the point in trying to say one of them isnít as good as they actually are?

However, Simmons is objectively having one of the greatest rookie seasons of all time. And by the letter of the law, he is a rookie. For voters - Itís a black and white matter, no shades of grey. It is completely wrong to hold a vote against him because of a personal belief that heís not a ďtrue rookie.Ē He has to be the rookie of the year.

And that doesnít mean Donovan Mitchell a worse player than he actually is. And that doesnít take anything away from how good he has been this year.

TheDish87
03-22-2018, 02:06 PM
No. The better record argument only applies when it helps Mitchellís case. If the Sixers finish with a better record, it wonít get mentioned.

bcuz the west is too domiant

More-Than-Most
03-22-2018, 11:29 PM
Sixers record vs west playoff teams
Utah 2-0
Spurs 2-0
Minny 1-0
Portland 1-1
Houston 1-1
Pelicans 1-1
GS 0-2
Okc 0-2
Clippers 2-0
Denver 1-0
11-7 vs west teams with winning records And everyone knows how the west is sooooo much better!


Fun note in 3 of those 7 losses we lost on buzzer beater 3s by Houston and OKC and someone else i believe and we blew 3 20 plus point leads in 3 of the other games.

Firefistus
03-23-2018, 12:35 PM
Mitchell's three point shot has dropped off this month. I personally think it's because he's getting worn out. With Exum out all season until this week, and our backup PG Raul Neto being on and off with injuries Mitchell has been picking up double duty, and I think he's just hitting the rookie wall.

Mitchell is still putting up 25+ points a game, and just passed Lebron in the 25+ points a game in a rookie season. Melo holds the most 25+ point games with 32 I think? But Mitchell has been doing it lately with 20+ shots a game, the first half of the season he was doing it with half the shots because his three pointers were dropping.

Because of this I think his value vs. Simmons is dropping as well. And I personally feel Simmons will deserve it more as he finishes the season, if he keeps it up the rest of the season.

warfelg
03-24-2018, 11:10 PM
Ben is 1 of 12 active players with 10+ Triple Doubles. There's no discussion for ROY.

More-Than-Most
03-24-2018, 11:40 PM
Ben is 1 of 12 active players with 10+ Triple Doubles. There's no discussion for ROY.

we also just beat yet another west team... so conference record is becoming irrelevent.. We already have a 12-7 record against west playoff teams now and a record against the west of 16-11... so we are 5 games over 500 against the west where utah is 10 but we own west playoff teams.

Sooooo

statistics
Win/loss
Wins against west uber conference teams
advanced metrics
Eye test

Points to simmons

warfelg
03-26-2018, 10:14 AM
So I had a bit of fun with this metric I found called "Points Created". It is measured by:

Points Created= PTS + AST*(2-VBP) + (REB + STL + BLK)*VBP -(FGMiss + FTMiss + TOV)*VBP Ė 0.5*VBP*PF

VBP - Value of basketball possession, taking the average for the league of points per possession, and dividing it by a factor of 100. Effectively, how many points the average team scores in a possession. This year that number is 1.08.

Everything else is laid out there as to what you need to calculate this.

Points Created for Ben (season): 1503.52
Points Created for Mitchell (season): 991.96

Both teams have played 71 games. So:

Points Created per game for Ben: 21.18
Points Created per game for Mitchell: 13.97

What this does is really takes in everything that a player does and finds a way to evaluate how much a player's total skillset effects the given team.

For comparison sake, here's LBJ and Harden:
LBJ: 2275.2
Harden: 1829.22

Lil Rhody
03-26-2018, 03:21 PM
Ben is 1 of 12 active players with 10+ Triple Doubles. There's no discussion for ROY.Your right because he is in year two of training with an NBA regiment [emoji16]

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

TheDish87
03-26-2018, 05:25 PM
i mean he had a serious foot injury that required him to miss at the very least the majority of the season. how much training do you really think he got in while needing to be focused on rehab? Be real, this is pretty much (better) the type of performance that was expected from him from the jump anyway

warfelg
03-26-2018, 06:03 PM
Ben, Magic, Oscar Robinson only 3 rookies with 1,000+ points, 500+ Ast, 500+ reb.

nastynice
03-26-2018, 06:36 PM
No. The better record argument only applies when it helps Mitchellís case. If the Sixers finish with a better record, it wonít get mentioned.

Pretty much this. Jazz were supposed to be forgotten after Hayward left, but Mitchell has them battling for a playoff spot

nastynice
03-26-2018, 06:37 PM
Your right because he is in year two of training with an NBA regiment [emoji16]

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Yea, this kinda makes me wanna see Mitchell win it

M.L.G.A.
03-26-2018, 11:17 PM
regardless, Simmons play on the court is his first year, how many players in the league for 10 years and still cant average a double double....game day is completely different than training and practice etc...

with that said, it's a fine line, both are straight ballers...why not co-rookie of the year, that way each get it for their "respective years" haha...both are going to be studs...with the Lakers got to draft both...

nastynice
03-27-2018, 01:24 AM
regardless, Simmons play on the court is his first year, how many players in the league for 10 years and still cant average a double double....game day is completely different than training and practice etc...

with that said, it's a fine line, both are straight ballers...why not co-rookie of the year, that way each get it for their "respective years" haha...both are going to be studs...with the Lakers got to draft both...

Very diff games, I think Simmons will have a better career. Heís already playing at an all star level. Dario just second year, legit first overall talent waiting to join in Fultz, philly is gonna be so nasty

More-Than-Most
04-06-2018, 09:58 PM
BOOM.... Dagger

bootsy
04-06-2018, 11:24 PM
BOOM.... Dagger

Yeah if he didn't shut that door before, it's officially shut now.

nastynice
04-07-2018, 12:40 AM
I can't remember the last time a rookie had a season as good as either Mitchell or Simmons, the fact that these two guys are playing how they are in the same years is pretty crazy

Taking out my disdain of Simmons not being a true rookie I still think Id go Mitchell. I think a lot of people haven't seen a lot of Mitchell

I also rescind my earlier comment of Simmons gonna have a better career. It's unknown to me as of right now

More-Than-Most
04-07-2018, 01:51 AM
I can't remember the last time a rookie had a season as good as either Mitchell or Simmons, the fact that these two guys are playing how they are in the same years is pretty crazy

Taking out my disdain of Simmons not being a true rookie I still think Id go Mitchell. I think a lot of people haven't seen a lot of Mitchell

I also rescind my earlier comment of Simmons gonna have a better career. It's unknown to me as of right now

I can because it happens quite often if we are going by what DMitch is doing... Go see towns rookie year where he was way better than mitchell


Damian lillard ROY was much better than Dmitch.

Kyrie irving was better than Dmitch

Blake was better than him

Lol without going any further 4 of the past 7 Roys were doing better than DMitch... I know you will scream hater but the statistics arent even really that close if you go look.

nastynice
04-07-2018, 02:35 AM
I can because it happens quite often if we are going by what DMitch is doing... Go see towns rookie year where he was way better than mitchell


Damian lillard ROY was much better than Dmitch.

Kyrie irving was better than Dmitch

Blake was better than him

Lol without going any further 4 of the past 7 Roys were doing better than DMitch... I know you will scream hater but the statistics arent even really that close if you go look.

Oh statistically maybe, I donít know. I have no clue what kinda numbers Mitchell is putting up, Simmons either. But the way Mitchell attacks the basket, that aggressive yet controlled, to be the focal point and still keep coming thru at this age, the way Simmons move like butter w crazy high iq already at this age, its hard to imagine either player not having a solid run of elite/borderline elite years, especially Simmons

I donít think youíre a hater, I think youíre a philly fan and your boy Simmons looks nasty as ****, and pointing out how Mitchell is looking kinda equally nasty in his own way kinda takes some shine from your boy. You just loving the shine, I ainít mad at that

Those guys were very very good players for a rookie, these two guys this year are just very very good period. Both players look like they coulda legit made the all star squad this year

jaydubb
04-07-2018, 03:43 AM
It's over

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
04-07-2018, 03:48 AM
Its not me being a philly boy and having anything to do with simmons... Mitch is impressive but me being a philly boy if that is the case is over the 20 shots for 20 points type of player because we had that in iverson and he is/was and will always be overrated as ****... Mitch is having a fine rookie year but its in all honesty far from impressive to say the least... PPG does nothing for me is all... Not in todays NBA.

nastynice
04-07-2018, 05:48 AM
Its not me being a philly boy and having anything to do with simmons... Mitch is impressive but me being a philly boy if that is the case is over the 20 shots for 20 points type of player because we had that in iverson and he is/was and will always be overrated as ****... Mitch is having a fine rookie year but its in all honesty far from impressive to say the least... PPG does nothing for me is all... Not in todays NBA.

I feel you, like I said I honestly have no clue how much ppg, apg, and rpg either guy has, does nothing for me either

TheDish87
04-07-2018, 04:32 PM
if you dont think Simmons is the ROY you should just stop watching ball. hes having far more then just a ROY season, this is borderline all NBA play we have seen.

mrblisterdundee
04-07-2018, 05:37 PM
Simmons officially locked up the rookie of the year award after getting a triple double last night against LeBron and passing Cleveland in the standings without Embiid. I don't care if he red-shirted last season. He didn't play. What he's doing without any semblance of an offense outside 10 feet is slightly more impressive than Mitchell's dominance. Add to that how Philadelphia has more wins and is higher in the standings than Utah.

jaydubb
04-07-2018, 05:40 PM
Yea. There was an argument at one point but I just don't see an argument for donovan Mitchell anymore.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
04-07-2018, 06:46 PM
I dont disagree that simmons had a slight advantage and if it was even close Id have 0 issues with someone saying anyone else but it hasnt been close and def isnt close... That being said I dont buy that 1 year without playing is a massive advantage esp when you look at all the players throughout the years in the draft whom have come in and have accomplished nothing... Okafor had a better rookie year than he did a 2nd year.... Is simmons really going to just drastically be super better and a 25/8/8 guy next year because he had a full year of play time? I highly doubt it... Simmons will make strides next year and maybe he will be a 21/7/7 player but nothing super drastic unless he starts nailing 3s.

nastynice
04-07-2018, 07:00 PM
if you dont think Simmons is the ROY you should just stop watching ball. hes having far more then just a ROY season, this is borderline all NBA play we have seen.

Sure, you musta missed my post where I said just as much regarding these two guys looking like legitimate all stars

JAZZNC
04-08-2018, 10:39 AM
Simmons is gonna win this award EASILY. As I've said numerous times, I'm just happy that an undersized late lotto pick was even able to get in the same conversation as a #1 overall pick 6'9 point guard with all time great measureables. I think we may be e a future All-Star but Philly has a first ballot Hall of Famer if he continues his trajectory.

IndyRealist
04-08-2018, 11:19 AM
Mitchell looks much more impressive than he actually is. Good for a rookie? Okay. But Simmons is flat out top tier for an NBA player, not just for a rookie.

Mitchell still needs a couple of years to round out into Lillard/Irving level, just like they needed.

nastynice
04-11-2018, 02:50 PM
Was watching sports center last night, everyone for the rookie of the year said either Mitchell or both, not one person had Simmons only

Itís just someoneís opinion, but donít think this is as run away as some people are making it seem. Maybe one said Simmons it that was due to apparently mitchell missed a bunch of games this year

Like I said earlier, I think a lot of people havenít seen a lot of Mitchell

nastynice
04-11-2018, 02:52 PM
Mitchell looks much more impressive than he actually is. Good for a rookie? Okay. But Simmons is flat out top tier for an NBA player, not just for a rookie.

Mitchell still needs a couple of years to round out into Lillard/Irving level, just like they needed.

Mitchell isnít impressive for a rookie, heís just flat out impressive, legit all star talent already like Simmons. Thatís why I was saying itís so crazy that in one year we have two players like this..

warfelg
04-11-2018, 02:55 PM
Was watching sports center last night, everyone for the rookie of the year said either Mitchell or both, not one person had Simmons only

Itís just someoneís opinion, but donít think this is as run away as some people are making it seem. Maybe one said Simmons it that was due to apparently mitchell missed a bunch of games this year

Like I said earlier, I think a lot of people havenít seen a lot of Mitchell

And a lot were saying that because they donít agree with the rule that made Simmons eligible.

nastynice
04-11-2018, 03:21 PM
And a lot were saying that because they donít agree with the rule that made Simmons eligible.

No one brought that up in the segment I was watching

You guy said see Mitchellís hoodie with the definition of rookie on it? lol, takin shots

warfelg
04-11-2018, 03:23 PM
No one brought that up in the segment I was watching

You guy said see Mitchellís hoodie with the definition of rookie on it? lol, takin shots

Thatís all Iíve seen people bring up.

Also Mitchellís hoodie helps Ben since it says ďfirst year playingĒ. Whoops.

nastynice
04-11-2018, 03:35 PM
Thatís all Iíve seen people bring up.

Also Mitchellís hoodie helps Ben since it says ďfirst year playingĒ. Whoops.

Mitchell is CLEARLY a superior scorer and carrying a bigger load, how could that possibly be the only thing people would bring up?

TheDish87
04-11-2018, 03:48 PM
how much better of a scorer is he really? He scores 20 on over 17 shots a game while Simmons scores 16 on just 12 shots and he doesnt even take 3's! he is just a better shooter and his FG and 3's are now below league avg. This isnt MVP the ROY is simply who had the better rookie season statistically and thats Simmons very clearly

warfelg
04-11-2018, 03:57 PM
Mitchell is CLEARLY a superior scorer and carrying a bigger load, how could that possibly be the only thing people would bring up?

ďBetterĒ as in more points with a lower TS%, eFG%, FG%; all on more shots per game.

nastynice
04-11-2018, 04:15 PM
ďBetterĒ as in more points with a lower TS%, eFG%, FG%; all on more shots per game.

No better as in if he has the ball in his hand and you tell him go score the ball he has a vastly superior offensive array which allows him to do so.

Cmon man, you guys really trying to argue Simmons a better scorer? Thatís way too homer. Both players got their strength and weakness

warfelg
04-11-2018, 04:23 PM
No because what you mean to say is ďIf you ignore efficiency and number of shots, Mitchell has more points than Simmons.Ē

cmellofan15
04-11-2018, 05:09 PM
No better as in if he has the ball in his hand and you tell him go score the ball he has a vastly superior offensive array which allows him to do so.

Cmon man, you guys really trying to argue Simmons a better scorer? Thatís way too homer. Both players got their strength and weakness

If you tell him to go score a basketball heís more likely to miss. Please explain to me why you value that???

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:09 PM
ďBetterĒ as in more points with a lower TS%, eFG%, FG%; all on more shots per game.

It's the same thing as the Kobe vs LeBron scoring arguments. Donovan is just a better pure scorer than Ben is and I don't think there is a debate about that at all. Ben might be more efficient but it's all about shot selection for him. He's taking shots he knows are very efficient while Donovan has to take shots that are a bit more radical due to him being the 1st option on his team. And you have to admit, what Donovan is able to do as a rookie leading the Jazz to a possible third seed is very impressive.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:12 PM
If you tell him to go score a basketball heís more likely to miss. Please explain to me why you value that???

Ben can't shoot threes, FT's, and has a below average midrange game. Why do you guys act like it's not entirely possible for Mitchell to be a more versatile scorer? If you're arguing efficiency, TS%, they are the same. But one guy is taking shots that allows him to space the floor for his team and also, free up the lanes. There's value in both players. It just so happens Ben's passing, rebounding, and defense is much superior to that of Donovan. I just respect a rookie leading his team in a tough WC. Like, c'mon. He's playing fantastic as well.

warfelg
04-11-2018, 06:13 PM
It's the same thing as the Kobe vs LeBron scoring arguments. Donovan is just a better pure scorer than Ben is and I don't think there is a debate about that at all. Ben might be more efficient but it's all about shot selection for him. He's taking shots he knows are very efficient while Donovan has to take shots that are a bit more radical due to him being the 1st option on his team. And you have to admit, what Donovan is able to do as a rookie leading the Jazz to a possible third seed is very impressive.

Iíve never said it isnít impressive. But the argument keeps being ďI donít like the nba ruleĒ or ďZOMGPOITZ!Ē Points arenít the only way you can contribute.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:18 PM
Iíve never said it isnít impressive. But the argument keeps being ďI donít like the nba ruleĒ or ďZOMGPOITZ!Ē Points arenít the only way you can contribute.

I'm referring to Donovan's scoring. There is no argument Ben has that he's a more versatile scorer than Donovan. None. And forget about the rule. I can care less about it. Both players are having tremendous seasons. It's obvious Ben is the superior player but the contributions made by Donovan in replacing Hayward, leading his team to one game from the third seed, being the primary scorer on his team, and also being an absolute professional this young into his career is something to be aware of.

FlashBolt
04-11-2018, 06:36 PM
I just want to say, forget about Donovan and Simmons for a second. Utah is 29-5 the past 34 games. That's more than enough games to say this is a legit squad. Over a span of a season, that's 70 wins. Absolutely ridiculous.

warfelg
04-11-2018, 07:17 PM
I'm referring to Donovan's scoring. There is no argument Ben has that he's a more versatile scorer than Donovan. None. And forget about the rule. I can care less about it. Both players are having tremendous seasons. It's obvious Ben is the superior player but the contributions made by Donovan in replacing Hayward, leading his team to one game from the third seed, being the primary scorer on his team, and also being an absolute professional this young into his career is something to be aware of.

Ok. What other than scoring is Donovan better at? There's more to playing basketball than that.

warfelg
04-11-2018, 07:21 PM
I just want to say, forget about Donovan and Simmons for a second. Utah is 29-5 the past 34 games. That's more than enough games to say this is a legit squad. Over a span of a season, that's 70 wins. Absolutely ridiculous.

Sixers are 37-12 since Christmas. Second best to the Rockets. Riding a 15 game win streak. 7 of which have come without Embiid. If a 34 game sample makes Utah legit, what does the 49 game sample and win streak say about the Sixers?

warfelg
04-11-2018, 07:28 PM
For those that say Ben shouldn't be eligible:

Should we retroactively strip Blake Griffin, David Robinson, Larry Bird, and Jerry Lucas of their ROY awards for not being in their first year?

JAZZNC
04-11-2018, 09:15 PM
Sixers are 37-12 since Christmas. Second best to the Rockets. Riding a 15 game win streak. 7 of which have come without Embiid. If a 34 game sample makes Utah legit, what does the 49 game sample and win streak say about the Sixers?

This is why I said you guys are the most sensitive fans I've ever seen. He literally said multiple times that your dude is better but if somebody isn't completely taking your boys balls deep you have to come up with a reply like this. All he is saying is that what Mitchell is doing is impressive. But you guys for some reason are so sensitive you take it as some sort of slight to your player/team??? I don't get it at all.

More-Than-Most
04-11-2018, 09:35 PM
This is why I said you guys are the most sensitive fans I've ever seen. He literally said multiple times that your dude is better but if somebody isn't completely taking your boys balls deep you have to come up with a reply like this. All he is saying is that what Mitchell is doing is impressive. But you guys for some reason are so sensitive you take it as some sort of slight to your player/team??? I don't get it at all.

its more so the PPG argument... PPG is just a horribly horribly terribly flawed stat... there just isnt anything worse... i personally dont care who wins it because its a dumb award... look who won it last year. My issues is the comments of ppg or this guy leads this team to this and this and is the first option or does it all by himself... what was mitch record before gob came back and what was it after? yet that is irrelevant.

ewing
04-11-2018, 09:45 PM
its more so the PPG argument... PPG is just a horribly horribly terribly flawed stat... there just isnt anything worse... i personally dont care who wins it because its a dumb award... look who won it last year. My issues is the comments of ppg or this guy leads this team to this and this and is the first option or does it all by himself... what was mitch record before gob came back and what was it after? yet that is irrelevant.

trying to prove his point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JAZZNC
04-11-2018, 09:50 PM
trying to prove his point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He damn sure is....lmao!

More-Than-Most
04-11-2018, 10:14 PM
trying to prove his point?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

more like trying to further peoples basketball knowledge :shrug:

warfelg
04-11-2018, 10:40 PM
This is why I said you guys are the most sensitive fans I've ever seen. He literally said multiple times that your dude is better but if somebody isn't completely taking your boys balls deep you have to come up with a reply like this. All he is saying is that what Mitchell is doing is impressive. But you guys for some reason are so sensitive you take it as some sort of slight to your player/team??? I don't get it at all.

It's not about being sensitive.

Both sides are doing impressive things. To me, it's about keeping in mind that both the Sixers and Jazz are massively outperforming expectations, and part of that for both sides is Mitchell/Simmons. To me continually pushing that the Jazz are good and it's all because of Mitchell; but not talking about how good the Sixers are and how big of a role in that Simmons plays feels like that artificial tilt to the conversation.

To me at least, what the Jazz have done record wise and performance speaks very very highly of Snyder and what he's done. He's always kept the focus of that team on defense, has made that the diving force of the team. I love the job he's done.

IMO you guys have the COTY and DPOTY. Just not the ROY.

JAZZNC
04-11-2018, 10:42 PM
more like trying to further peoples basketball knowledge :shrug:

I wouldn't expect you to get it. Carry on arguing with people who agree with you. Ya do realize that it is actually possible to think Simmons is the better player while simultaneously thinking Mitchell is a nice player too??

warfelg
04-11-2018, 10:50 PM
I wouldn't expect you to get it. Carry on arguing with people who agree with you. Ya do realize that it is actually possible to think Simmons is the better player while simultaneously thinking Mitchell is a nice player too??

And a lot of us do. It just makes us look like haters when people push Mitchell for ROY and we ask other than scoring where he's been better. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate everything Mitchell has done, and any other year he would be a great pick. It's just unfortunate for him and Jazz fans that Simmons is considered a rookie by NBA rules.

More-Than-Most
04-11-2018, 11:39 PM
I wouldn't expect you to get it. Carry on arguing with people who agree with you. Ya do realize that it is actually possible to think Simmons is the better player while simultaneously thinking Mitchell is a nice player too??

when did i ever say Mitch isnt a good player? id take him over anyone drafted last year not named fultz and possibly tatum.... Why does me pointing out how stupid one argument is a jab at what Mitch is or will be? He is a damn good rookie but i will let you in on a secret... DEFENSE.... Defense has forever been the end all be all to me and the notion that Mitch is doing this and this and is the leader etc etc and how undervalued guys like Rubio/Gob have become is hilarious... The only difference in the team from last year is you lost Hayward whom to me is/was overrated and I said it during free agency... You had a legit team last year and who really did you lose? DEFENSE.... the reason you guys are winning isnt all of a sudden because of mitch its because of the team defense from top to bottom... mitch is a piece and he is a sick rookie but his overall impact is being extremely over inflated when you look at the statistical output on both sides of the ball... You have by far the defensive player of the year and he barely gets love for the Jazz getting hot even though it started when he came back.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:40 AM
Ok. What other than scoring is Donovan better at? There's more to playing basketball than that.

Uhm.. You're responding to a post saying Donovan is a more versatile scorer with, "How so? He's taking more shots, etc.," I'm not sure you're understanding what you're quoting right now.

nastynice
04-12-2018, 01:09 AM
It's not about being sensitive.

Both sides are doing impressive things. To me, it's about keeping in mind that both the Sixers and Jazz are massively outperforming expectations, and part of that for both sides is Mitchell/Simmons. To me continually pushing that the Jazz are good and it's all because of Mitchell; but not talking about how good the Sixers are and how big of a role in that Simmons plays feels like that artificial tilt to the conversation.

To me at least, what the Jazz have done record wise and performance speaks very very highly of Snyder and what he's done. He's always kept the focus of that team on defense, has made that the diving force of the team. I love the job he's done.

IMO you guys have the COTY and DPOTY. Just not the ROY.

Jazz have a good team, Mitchell isnít playing with scrubs, but thereís still a difference having a teammate like Embiid who can legitimate be the focus of the defenses game plan. In Utah itís always gonna be mitchell, obviously. (Yet he stay ballin. You guys responding to me calling him a better scorer with all this ts and per, cmon, that donít mean ****, anyone should be able to see Mitchell is better at getting buckets)

Philly is also playing above expectation, Simmons is clearly a big part of that, but Mitchellís situation was definitely more unexpected

Like if the dubs win 65 games, would that impress anyone? Its like meh. Of course this example is exaggerated, Philly actually has been very impressive, I donít think anyone expected them to grow this fast. But the jazz are like damn, these guys ballin outta nowhere

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 01:14 AM
Sixers are 37-12 since Christmas. Second best to the Rockets. Riding a 15 game win streak. 7 of which have come without Embiid. If a 34 game sample makes Utah legit, what does the 49 game sample and win streak say about the Sixers?

WTF did my post have to do with the Sixers? my God, not everything revolves around you guys. I can't show respect to Utah? I don't even like them. You make it seem as if I'm riding the Jazz or something.

More-Than-Most
04-12-2018, 01:53 AM
Jazz have a good team, Mitchell isnít playing with scrubs, but thereís still a difference having a teammate like Embiid who can legitimate be the focus of the defenses game plan. In Utah itís always gonna be mitchell, obviously. (Yet he stay ballin. You guys responding to me calling him a better scorer with all this ts and per, cmon, that donít mean ****, anyone should be able to see Mitchell is better at getting buckets)

Philly is also playing above expectation, Simmons is clearly a big part of that, but Mitchellís situation was definitely more unexpected

Like if the dubs win 65 games, would that impress anyone? Its like meh. Of course this example is exaggerated, Philly actually has been very impressive, I donít think anyone expected them to grow this fast. But the jazz are like damn, these guys ballin outta nowhere

this is what i dont understand though... why is the jazz so shocking? they lost hayward but kept favors/gobert and added rubio... they were a 51 win team last year werent they?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2017.html


they lost hayward but were a 51-31 and gained pieces... how and why the heck is this shocking.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:05 AM
this is what i dont understand though... why is the jazz so shocking? they lost hayward but kept favors/gobert and added rubio... they were a 51 win team last year werent they?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2017.html


they lost hayward but were a 51-31 and gained pieces... how and why the heck is this shocking.

This is a joke, right? They lost three of their top four scorers and implemented new pieces with Donovan being their "Hayward" as a rookie.

More-Than-Most
04-12-2018, 02:18 AM
This is a joke, right? They lost three of their top four scorers and implemented new pieces with Donovan being their "Hayward" as a rookie.

no its not a joke.... the moment when losing 2 of those 3 that are known as top scorers are all under 15ppg lolololol... is this real life??? They kept Gobert... They kept favors... they added a defensive PG and jae crowder... mitch helped fill the void but this is what i mean about these stupid arguments... the 51 win jazz are a more surprising team than the 28 win sixers who were known to not stay healthy that upped their win total 24 games all because the jazz lost hayward who is a top 25 player?

GH was the only one at 16... everyone else is under 12 except gobert/hayward... losing hayward was big... losing anyone else meant nothing because they filled those voids with better 2 way players.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:34 AM
no its not a joke.... the moment when losing 2 of those 3 that are known as top scorers are all under 15ppg lolololol... is this real life??? They kept Gobert... They kept favors... they added a defensive PG and jae crowder... mitch helped fill the void but this is what i mean about these stupid arguments... the 51 win jazz are a more surprising team than the 28 win sixers who were known to not stay healthy that upped their win total 24 games all because the jazz lost hayward who is a top 25 player?

GH was the only one at 16... everyone else is under 12 except gobert/hayward... losing hayward was big... losing anyone else meant nothing because they filled those voids with better 2 way players.

Your only concern was staying healthy.. Jazz lost an All-Star and no one expected them to be a 50 win team in the West.. and you are lying if you say you did. Defensive PG who can't score... And Jae Crowder? Bro, stop it. You were probably talking about how bad he was for the Cavs but he has been terrible for Jazz as well. How is it a stupid argument? Are you telling me that if before the season, they would lose Hayward+Hill+Hood for Mitchell+Rubio+Crowder, they should win the same amount of games? Stop lying man.. We knew Ben+Embiid were gonna be good but health was their only concern. We had no idea what Donovan was going to do. None.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:37 AM
no its not a joke.... the moment when losing 2 of those 3 that are known as top scorers are all under 15ppg lolololol... is this real life??? They kept Gobert... They kept favors... they added a defensive PG and jae crowder... mitch helped fill the void but this is what i mean about these stupid arguments... the 51 win jazz are a more surprising team than the 28 win sixers who were known to not stay healthy that upped their win total 24 games all because the jazz lost hayward who is a top 25 player?

GH was the only one at 16... everyone else is under 12 except gobert/hayward... losing hayward was big... losing anyone else meant nothing because they filled those voids with better 2 way players.

Yeah.. I think it's time we change the subject. I don't believe you know what you're talking about here. And top three/four scorers were half their PPG. You don't replace that easily and if I told you that a rookie would be their leading scorer by a large margin, you wouldn't believe it. He's their most versatile and reliable scorer 100%. He's a large part of why they have won games because as good as their defense is, how many games do you think they win if Donovan isn't scoring? Hayward and Hill were also good two-way players... we don't even need to talk about offense, do we?

More-Than-Most
04-12-2018, 02:43 AM
I am legit at a loss for words that we are discussing the loss of HILL and hood... yes hayward was a big loss but again its not like they lost a top 10 player... let me make sure I am understanding this..... mitchell made this team a 50 win team by shooting 20ppg on an inefficient level and in the same sentence you are telling me how important Hill and hood are because of PPG and that is why this was so amazing.... Dmitch covered up for their combined loss even though he didnt come close to hayward let alone hayward/hood/hill???

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:46 AM
What's the point. It feels like unless we all suck Ben Simmons dry, you refuse to listen anyways. I'm out

More-Than-Most
04-12-2018, 02:47 AM
What's the point. It feels like unless we all suck Ben Simmons dry, you refuse to listen anyways. I'm out

lmfao amazing rebuttal.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:53 AM
lmfao amazing rebuttal.

It's not a rebuttal. It's a statement. You really don't want to give Donovan any credit it seems.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 02:59 AM
https://i.gyazo.com/ff3ca8055debd640a38d24d69b260df4.jpg

https://youtu.be/czAeQyp4HJM?list=PL_oLcJBinehOwJ7iCub6xnxMAzQ1ldX3 K&t=269

But yeah, Donovan is not important. He's just someone who shoots the ball more. Give me a break. Simmons is the better player but he does not score the ball as well as Donovan can. Donovan's offense gives the Jazz the ability to focus more on defense because they have someone who can score. If you think he's just stealing shots from his teammate's or something, it's because you very clearly, as I've pointed out already, haven't watched a single Jazz game. And you know it.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 03:02 AM
And for argument's sake, Ben would not be able to help the Jazz the way Donovan has the same way Donovan won't help the Sixers the way Ben can. They're playing two entirely different games based on the system of the team. Simply trying to compare stats at this point is beyond comparison. It's about who does what and Donovan can score the ball on a team that needs scoring while Ben can be a lesser-LeBron for a team that needs it.

Saddletramp
04-12-2018, 03:23 AM
I'm starting to like this new Sixers team and they're only going to get better.

But goddamn.....these fans......At least Warriors fans had a championship team to hang their hat on (haven't seen some of the worst ones lately but if they win the championship this year, they'll be back).

nastynice
04-12-2018, 05:17 AM
I am legit at a loss for words that we are discussing the loss of HILL and hood... yes hayward was a big loss but again its not like they lost a top 10 player... let me make sure I am understanding this..... mitchell made this team a 50 win team by shooting 20ppg on an inefficient level and in the same sentence you are telling me how important Hill and hood are because of PPG and that is why this was so amazing.... Dmitch covered up for their combined loss even though he didnt come close to hayward let alone hayward/hood/hill???

Mitchell is legitimately LEADING that team as a rookie, a good squad with good pieces but no one expected them to be in the mix like this. Simmons has kinda been doing that himself recently, but majority of the year Embiid was a dominant player next to him

JAZZNC
04-12-2018, 07:55 AM
when did i ever say Mitch isnt a good player? id take him over anyone drafted last year not named fultz and possibly tatum.... Why does me pointing out how stupid one argument is a jab at what Mitch is or will be? He is a damn good rookie but i will let you in on a secret... DEFENSE.... Defense has forever been the end all be all to me and the notion that Mitch is doing this and this and is the leader etc etc and how undervalued guys like Rubio/Gob have become is hilarious... The only difference in the team from last year is you lost Hayward whom to me is/was overrated and I said it during free agency... You had a legit team last year and who really did you lose? DEFENSE.... the reason you guys are winning isnt all of a sudden because of mitch its because of the team defense from top to bottom... mitch is a piece and he is a sick rookie but his overall impact is being extremely over inflated when you look at the statistical output on both sides of the ball... You have by far the defensive player of the year and he barely gets love for the Jazz getting hot even though it started when he came back.

Jesus ****ing Christ....

warfelg
04-12-2018, 08:02 AM
Alright, why Sixers fans are a little frustrated:

Every time that the ROY conversation comes up, someone is bound to bring up the Jazz record, as if Mitchell is the only one that should get credit for that happening. Is Mitchell a reason for that? Sure.

But there are other things going on with the Jazz.

Even though he only played 56 games, IMO, Rudy Gobert is the DPOY. They were by far the leagues best defense with him on the court. They were still a great defensive team without him. I've never seen a team able to play help defense like they can and not get out of position. Gobert being such a great shot altering center, the defense can funnel players into the middle and use that help (as they should). Jazz also defensively have great length at every position and off the bench. Their ability to do that is amazing.

Offensively there's some other things going into it. Joe Ingles is having an amazing year shooting, posting 44% shooting from 3 pt range. Great shooting like that makes it hard for defenders to collapse. Ricky Rubio is also having a career year shooting and scoring. That certainly helps open some things up. I love the ball movement and overall movement that they use offensively. They also cranked up the pace this year from ~93 to close to ~98; and that's certainly helped out.

To me the way they have adjusted, and what Snyder has done and changed as a coach is very Popovichian like. Popovich is one of the few coaches I've seen able to change almost everything about the style of the team to keep them up there. Again, Mitchell is a reason for them being there, but he's not the sole reason.

What the Jazz have done as a team this season has been unbelievable and is something that should be talked about more. But yet it's only brought up in connection to Mitchell. Not Gobert. Not Snyder. No talk about how if it weren't for Olandipo that Ingles and Rubio would be in the talks for Most Improved Player.

So that's where Sixers fans get a little perturbed when the Jazz record is brought up as if Mitchell does everything alone, but we get the asterisk of Joel Embiid. I've seen some comments of having JJ (and some RoCo) helps Ben because of shooting (despite Ingles having the better year). I've tried a few times in spots to get people to talk about these other factors, but not one wants to talk about it. And I feel as though it's because it doesn't fit the narrative that Mitchell is doing things alone.

Mr. Baller
04-12-2018, 08:14 AM
Its Ben Simmons and it honestly shouldn't be close

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 11:11 AM
Alright, why Sixers fans are a little frustrated:

Every time that the ROY conversation comes up, someone is bound to bring up the Jazz record, as if Mitchell is the only one that should get credit for that happening. Is Mitchell a reason for that? Sure.

But there are other things going on with the Jazz.

Even though he only played 56 games, IMO, Rudy Gobert is the DPOY. They were by far the leagues best defense with him on the court. They were still a great defensive team without him. I've never seen a team able to play help defense like they can and not get out of position. Gobert being such a great shot altering center, the defense can funnel players into the middle and use that help (as they should). Jazz also defensively have great length at every position and off the bench. Their ability to do that is amazing.

Offensively there's some other things going into it. Joe Ingles is having an amazing year shooting, posting 44% shooting from 3 pt range. Great shooting like that makes it hard for defenders to collapse. Ricky Rubio is also having a career year shooting and scoring. That certainly helps open some things up. I love the ball movement and overall movement that they use offensively. They also cranked up the pace this year from ~93 to close to ~98; and that's certainly helped out.

To me the way they have adjusted, and what Snyder has done and changed as a coach is very Popovichian like. Popovich is one of the few coaches I've seen able to change almost everything about the style of the team to keep them up there. Again, Mitchell is a reason for them being there, but he's not the sole reason.

What the Jazz have done as a team this season has been unbelievable and is something that should be talked about more. But yet it's only brought up in connection to Mitchell. Not Gobert. Not Snyder. No talk about how if it weren't for Olandipo that Ingles and Rubio would be in the talks for Most Improved Player.

So that's where Sixers fans get a little perturbed when the Jazz record is brought up as if Mitchell does everything alone, but we get the asterisk of Joel Embiid. I've seen some comments of having JJ (and some RoCo) helps Ben because of shooting (despite Ingles having the better year). I've tried a few times in spots to get people to talk about these other factors, but not one wants to talk about it. And I feel as though it's because it doesn't fit the narrative that Mitchell is doing things alone.

So we can't give Mitchell credit but I see Ben Simmons getting spammed everywhere like he is a God by Sixers fans? Wow, you guys just don't take winning in a good way. You guys gotta change the way you act here.. It's not the Sixers forum but the NBA forum.

warfelg
04-12-2018, 11:17 AM
I never said not to give him credit. Quote me saying that. Iíve said other players deserve credit as well and we arenít talking about them.

warfelg
04-12-2018, 11:25 AM
And this is the problem that a lot of Sixer fans are having.

Every time the Jazz come up itís Mitchell Mitchell Mitchell. I want to take a moment to talk about how good that whole team is and suddenly is trying to discredit Mitchell.

Like others donít do it by saying Simmons has Embiid, or saying the Sixers play in the east.

Itís going both ways right now with that crap, so donít act like itís one side.

Sorry I wanted to talk about the Jazz as a whole for a bit second and how Iím impressed they got more from Rubio than the Wolves got. How Joe Ingles stepped up his game without Heyward. How Gobert is the DPOY.

None of that takes away from Mitchell or what heís done offensively. It adds to how good that team is and is a testament to how well run they are and how well they are set up that they can lose Heyward, slide in a rookie, and still be competitive. Of course it still takes a good and special rookie to pull that off.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:25 PM
Okay, so let's not talk about Reddick shooting (for this month) 52% from three averaging 23 points. Shooting 53% overall.

For March, averaged 16.5 PPG on 45 from 3P%.

None of you have mentioned that but you're upset that we don't mention Rubio...? Lmao, c'mon man. "We Sixers fans." Stop it, dude. This isn't a Sixers vs Jazz fan debate. In fact, there aren't many Jazz fans here. We're just saying Donovan deserves a lot of credit for stepping up being a rookie who was the 14th pick and only averaged 14 points in college... Ben was expected to be the new superstar before he stepped foot into the league.

FlashBolt
04-12-2018, 12:26 PM
I never said not to give him credit. Quote me saying that. Iíve said other players deserve credit as well and we arenít talking about them.

When did I hear you giving J.J. Reddick credit?

warfelg
04-12-2018, 12:28 PM
When did I hear you giving J.J. Reddick credit?

I did a while ago (close to 2-3 weeks) when I said itís nice having a 40% career shooter.

warfelg
04-12-2018, 12:29 PM
Okay, so let's not talk about Reddick shooting (for this month) 52% from three averaging 23 points. Shooting 53% overall.

For March, averaged 16.5 PPG on 45 from 3P%.

None of you have mentioned that but you're upset that we don't mention Rubio...? Lmao, c'mon man. "We Sixers fans." Stop it, dude. This isn't a Sixers vs Jazz fan debate. In fact, there aren't many Jazz fans here. We're just saying Donovan deserves a lot of credit for stepping up being a rookie who was the 14th pick and only averaged 14 points in college... Ben was expected to be the new superstar before he stepped foot into the league.

Again show where we said Donovan doesnít deserve credit. Iíll wait.