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Jeffy25
02-12-2018, 10:22 AM
My list:

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Dirk
4. Garnett
5. Barkley
6. Pettit
7. Gasol
8. McHale
9. Brand
10. Bosh

ewing
02-12-2018, 10:36 AM
1)Duncan
2)Dirk
3)Malone
4)Sir Charles
5)Gasol
6)KG
7) C Webb
8)McHale
9)Dennis Rodman
10) Blake Griffen

disclaimer: I didn't include anyone I've never seen play basketball. I had a hard time at 10. Bosh, Larry Nance, Buck Williams (personal fav), Brand, Terry Cummings- not sure.

Ahriman
02-12-2018, 11:27 AM
1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Garnett
4. Nowitzki
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Gasol
8. Rodman
9. Webber
10. Nance Sr.

Personal Fav: Shawn Kemp. Big fan of him when I was a kid :)

Chronz
02-12-2018, 12:47 PM
1)Duncan
2)Dirk
3)Malone
4)Sir Charles
5)Gasol
6)KG
7) C Webb
8)McHale
9)Dennis Rodman
10) Blake Griffen

disclaimer: I didn't include anyone I've never seen play basketball. I had a hard time at 10. Bosh, Larry Nance, Buck Williams (personal fav), Brand, Terry Cummings- not sure.

There's never a right or wrong path, but let me tell you why each of those has a **** meaning to them.

TD, too ez. Clearly number 1 but only because he took the ***** path and stayed on a team that would protect his center minutes. Always a great team defender but I'd argue his defensive peak came far later in his career, post peak play. Should be ranked with centers.

Dirk, you have some balls. I like the precedent you set going with a limited defensive factor and downright liability for early/final portions of his career. So my question is, why not chuck? Dude made the finals and lost to the guy you consider greater than any other involved here. I'd argue chuck played better in his finals than either of Dirks. He just ran into peak mj, oh well, at least he wasn't Malone.

Oh ****, you have Malone ahead of sir Charles too? Why is it greater to be inferior so long as you sustain that level of play longer? Remember when dream team was happening and people were hyping up how it would be Malone breaking through as a threat to the trinity. Instead it was chuck who stole the show and dominated in ways Malone never could despite having Stockton forever.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 01:44 PM
Gasol? Short peak, KG had many arguably longer stretches of superior play but gets ranked beneath? Why? Both great passers and defenders at their peak, both shunned away from big moments but kg carried franchises while pau bought into playing limited minutes as his primary intangible.

ewing
02-12-2018, 01:53 PM
what's the beef Chronz?

mightybosstone
02-12-2018, 02:26 PM
My list would look something like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Karl Malone
6. Kevin McHale
7. Bob Pettit
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Pau Gasol
10. Chris Webber

------------------------

11. Dolph Schayes
12. Bobby Jones
13. Dennis Rodman
14. Dave Debusschere
15. Chris Bosh

WaDe03
02-12-2018, 02:29 PM
what's the beef Chronz?

Angus.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 02:31 PM
what's the beef Chronz?bored

mightybosstone
02-12-2018, 02:33 PM
Power forward is one of the hardest positions to judge because so many of the all-time greats at the position played before our time and it's really tough to measure the offense-first guys against the defense-first guys. It's top heavy, so pretty much everyone will have the same top five guys in some order. But after that, the lists are going to vary drastically from 6-10 depending on how you judge newer guys versus older guys and offense versus defense.

Some people will have guys like Brand, Stoudemire and Bosh in their top 10. Others will have guys like Rodman, Debuscherre and Jones. Some will give more credit to a guy like Gasol over a guy like Pettit, whose numbers are superior but who played so long ago that it's hard to judge. But I'm willing to bet this position will be the one where we see the greatest variation in those 6-10 spots.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 02:34 PM
My list would look something like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Charles Barkley
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Karl Malone
6. Kevin McHale
7. Bob Pettit
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Pau Gasol
10. Chris Webber

------------------------

11. Dolph Schayes
12. Bobby Jones
13. Dennis Rodman
14. Dave Debusschere
15. Chris Bosh
KG was easily contained offensively. Rarely demonstrative. Lots of greats had it hard but went ham despite their cast and defensive attention. KG shriveled every step of the way, even his champ season is tainted by so many losses. KG is a great glue guy, chuck drilled you regardless.

Chronz
02-12-2018, 02:36 PM
Power forward is one of the hardest positions to judge because so many of the all-time greats at the position played before our time and it's really tough to measure the offense-first guys against the defense-first guys. It's top heavy, so pretty much everyone will have the same top five guys in some order. But after that, the lists are going to vary drastically from 6-10 depending on how you judge newer guys versus older guys and offense versus defense.

Some people will have guys like Brand, Stoudemire and Bosh in their top 10. Others will have guys like Rodman, Debuscherre and Jones. Some will give more credit to a guy like Gasol over a guy like Pettit, whose numbers are superior but who played so long ago that it's hard to judge. But I'm willing to bet this position will be the one where we see the greatest variation in those 6-10 spots.

The game has changed more in the years you've been watching than it did than any other era. It's not hard to compare because of age, but because of recent innovation

mightybosstone
02-12-2018, 02:37 PM
KG was easily contained offensively. Rarely demonstrative. Lots of greats had it hard but went ham despite their cast and defensive attention. KG shriveled every step of the way, even his champ season is tainted by so many losses. KG is a great glue guy, chuck drilled you regardless.

Measuring KG, Barkley, Dirk and Malone next to each other is really hard. I gave KG the slightest of edges over Barkley because of his defensive impact, but I gave Barkley the edge over Dirk and Malone because of he was probably the most dominant offensive player of the four. And Dirk got the edge over Malone because of the superior postseason resume.

But you could use any number of barometers to judge those four guys, and it's impossible to have a right or wrong answer.

Jamiecballer
02-12-2018, 02:45 PM
how does Brand make anybodys list? he was off the NBA radar by his 28th birthday....

Chronz
02-12-2018, 02:56 PM
how does Brand make anybodys list? he was off the NBA radar by his 28th birthday....

Twas surprised to see him, he did have that one year. He was like three Shawn Marion of tweener bigs. Not too far off from cwebb imo

KnicksorBust
02-12-2018, 03:21 PM
Whoever you put #5 looks like they got hosed. Any of them could be #2. Mine for kicks:

Duncan
Mailman
Barkley
Dirk
KG
McHale
Pau
Webber
Rodman
Debuss

Lakers + Giants
02-12-2018, 03:45 PM
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Nowitzki
4. Malone
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Rodman
8. Gasol
9. Brand
10. Amare

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:15 PM
Whoever you put #5 looks like they got hosed. Any of them could be #2. Mine for kicks:

Duncan
Mailman
Barkley
Dirk
KG
McHale
Pau
Webber
Rodman
Debuss
That's my list except for mailman being below KG and pettit above both

ewing
02-12-2018, 04:15 PM
KG was easily contained offensively. Rarely demonstrative. Lots of greats had it hard but went ham despite their cast and defensive attention. KG shriveled every step of the way, even his champ season is tainted by so many losses. KG is a great glue guy, chuck drilled you regardless.


Lot of shrinkage

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:17 PM
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Nowitzki
4. Malone
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Rodman
8. Gasol
9. Brand
10. Amare

Funny how we rank Duncan as a power forward and Amare as a pf even though his greatest success came as a center allegedly.

Shammyguy3
02-12-2018, 04:23 PM
1. Nowitzki
2. Garnett
3. Barkley
4. Malone
5. McHale
6. Rodman
7. Pau Gasol
8. Amare Stoudemire
9. Anthony Davis
10. Draymond Green

* Pettit, Bosh, Webber, Sheed, DeBusschere, are notables

**** Duncan is a center

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:30 PM
Draymond huh.. wss wondering if anyone would bring him up. So was Blake vs Draymond a thing?

kdspurman
02-12-2018, 04:30 PM
If TD is a Center, why wasn't Lebron listed in the PG's portion of this? The argument could be made the he pretty much has been the PG with whatever roster he plays with.

Timmy has played with traditional centers more times than not in his career.

ewing
02-12-2018, 04:32 PM
Replace Duncan with Rasho Nesterovic on my list

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:34 PM
If TD is a Center, why wasn't Lebron listed in the PG's portion of this? The argument could be made the he pretty much has been the PG with whatever roster he plays with.

Timmy has played with traditional centers more times than not in his career.
Cuz Bron is a point forward. Not a point guard. TD was a center playing alongside another center. It's cheating damn it

kdspurman
02-12-2018, 04:44 PM
Cuz Bron is a point forward. Not a point guard. TD was a center playing alongside another center. It's cheating damn it

:laugh2: So does that make TD a power center? or forward center? The difference between he and KG is he had a back to basket game, and would defend centers. Both could handle the rock and defend on the perimeter.

Where does that line come in between what constitutes a 4 vs a 5?

Chronz
02-12-2018, 04:50 PM
:laugh2: So does that make TD a power center? or forward center? The difference between he and KG is he had a back to basket game, and would defend centers. Both could handle the rock and defend on the perimeter.

Where does that line come in between what constitutes a 4 vs a 5?
That's a huge difference.

kdspurman
02-12-2018, 04:56 PM
That's a huge difference.

Or maybe KG is more of a SF in a PF's body?

Chuck also played with his back to the basket, he just was vertically challenged. Heck he might be a C in today's NBA

Chronz
02-12-2018, 05:06 PM
Or maybe KG is more of a SF in a PF's body?

Chuck also played with his back to the basket, he just was vertically challenged. Heck he might be a C in today's NBA
KG is more of a 4 than Duncan that's for sure. But yeah, it took awhile for kgs body to mature into an NBA 4 and even when the league went small he detested being the lone big man out there.

Positions matter less today because its more of a position less game, it's so watered down and basically homogenized that it doesn't matter as much. Luckily we saw these 2 play in the golden era of basketball

YAALREADYKNO
02-12-2018, 05:32 PM
Duncan
Dirk
Malone
Garnett
Barkley
Mchale
Pettit
Webber
Gasol
Bosh

rhino17
02-12-2018, 05:36 PM
1) Duncan
2) Dirk
3) Malone
4) Barkley
5) KG

mightybosstone
02-13-2018, 10:55 AM
1. Nowitzki
2. Garnett
3. Barkley
4. Malone
5. McHale
6. Rodman
7. Pau Gasol
8. Amare Stoudemire
9. Anthony Davis
10. Draymond Green

* Pettit, Bosh, Webber, Sheed, DeBusschere, are notables

**** Duncan is a center

What's up with the trend of posters randomly trying to be clever by ranking guys at positions other than the positions that literally EVERYBODY would rank them at? Duncan is a PF. Quit trying to be the smartest guy in the ****ing room, shammy.

Also, this list makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little bit. Davis and Draymond Green? Really?

Shammyguy3
02-13-2018, 12:28 PM
What's up with the trend of posters randomly trying to be clever by ranking guys at positions other than the positions that literally EVERYBODY would rank them at? Duncan is a PF. Quit trying to be the smartest guy in the ****ing room, shammy.

Also, this list makes me want to throw up in my mouth a little bit. Davis and Draymond Green? Really?

Duncan quite literally is a center though.

And yeah, give me Davis and Green over other guys not in that top ten

rhino17
02-13-2018, 01:04 PM
Duncan quite literally is a center though.

What would you call David Robinson, Rasho Nesterovic, Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson, etc?

Shammyguy3
02-13-2018, 02:01 PM
What would you call David Robinson, Rasho Nesterovic, Fabricio Oberto, Francisco Elson, etc?

Bball reference lists Duncan's total career minutes. 72% of which were at center.

valade16
02-13-2018, 02:11 PM
Bball reference lists Duncan's total career minutes. 72% of which were at center.

53% of Stoudemire's minutes were at C, is he a Center as well?

More to the point, if you look at when those minutes happened, before 30, 55% of Duncan's minutes were at the PF position. He started playing Center later in his career.

kdspurman
02-13-2018, 02:16 PM
Bball reference lists Duncan's total career minutes. 72% of which were at center.

It has him at Center in some years he was without a doubt playing the 4 tho, especially the years with Splitter. So idk how much I trust that. There's really no argument to be made that Splitter was the 4 and he was the 5

Chronz
02-13-2018, 02:37 PM
It has him at Center in some years he was without a doubt playing the 4 tho, especially the years with Splitter. So idk how much I trust that. There's really no argument to be made that Splitter was the 4 and he was the 5

Agreed, but even accounting for it, there's a clear distinction between Duncan and the rest of the pf crop. It's actually quite a compliment that I'm not sure why some get their panties in a bunch about it. Maybe they want to strengthen the pf position by having a center aka the main big in there. Chuck would not be as effective as 5 tho he would abuse more offensively

kdspurman
02-13-2018, 02:43 PM
Agreed, but even accounting for it, there's a clear distinction between Duncan and the rest of the pf crop. It's actually quite a compliment that I'm not sure why some get their panties in a bunch about it. Maybe they want to strengthen the pf position by having a center aka the main big in there. Chuck would not be as effective as 5 tho he would abuse more offensively

I agree it is a compliment, and it's 1 of the many things that separates him from the pack. A versatile 4 who could defend/play multiple positions. How many guys at the 4 didn't really want to play the 5 because of the physical toll it took on them, or w/e other reasons they had?

He's primarily a 4, who played some 5 throughout his career. I think that sums it up pretty accurately

Shammyguy3
02-13-2018, 02:59 PM
53% of Stoudemire's minutes were at C, is he a Center as well?

More to the point, if you look at when those minutes happened, before 30, 55% of Duncan's minutes were at the PF position. He started playing Center later in his career.

Thats definitely arguable. If Stat had 75% of his minutes at one position over another then it is less of a debate.

Just because Duncan is capable of playing the 4 doesnt mean he is strictly a 4. He is much closer to a 5 to me.

KnicksorBust
02-13-2018, 03:47 PM
53% of Stoudemire's minutes were at C, is he a Center as well?

More to the point, if you look at when those minutes happened, before 30, 55% of Duncan's minutes were at the PF position. He started playing Center later in his career.


Thats definitely arguable. If Stat had 75% of his minutes at one position over another then it is less of a debate.

Just because Duncan is capable of playing the 4 doesnt mean he is strictly a 4. He is much closer to a 5 to me.

This analogy might not work for everyone on here but it makes me think of Rod Woodson. Rod Woodson had some great seasons at safety but to me he will always be considered one of the best cornerbacks of all-time. Peak Duncan played PF...

ewing
02-13-2018, 04:39 PM
Thats definitely arguable. If Stat had 75% of his minutes at one position over another then it is less of a debate.

Just because Duncan is capable of playing the 4 doesnt mean he is strictly a 4. He is much closer to a 5 to me.

Greg Popovich didn't seem to think so. I'm going with him

Shammyguy3
02-13-2018, 05:06 PM
Greg Popovich didn't seem to think so. I'm going with him

"Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year’s playoff series against Utah. When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the
last 15 years.”

:eyebrow:

Redrum187
02-13-2018, 05:22 PM
Dan Roundfield

Redrum187
02-13-2018, 05:36 PM
1.) Duncan
2.) Dirk
3.) Malone
4.) Barkley
5.) Garnett
6.) McHale
7.) Pettit
8.) Gasol
9.) Rodman
10.) Bobby Jones

Webber and Hayes don't make the list. Why do I want PF's who shoot 24 times to score 25 points? Bobby Jones could pass it almost as well as Webber, rebound as well as Webber, defend astronomically better than Webber (at either forward position), and led the league in TS% in an area where efficiency wasn't even considered.

Webber choked in the playoffs... he couldn't play in the big game. Elvin Hayes... the dude is worse than Webber and it's not even close... at least Webber would pass the damn ball.

I wouldn't want Webber as my #1 or #2 scoring option... I wouldn't want Bobby Jones as my #1 or #2 option, but that isn't his primary function on a team... he is a defensive beast, and while not being a main scoring option, he'll get you 15 points on .600+ TS%. Bobby Jones is underrated as ***k. :confused:

kdspurman
02-13-2018, 05:37 PM
"Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year’s playoff series against Utah. When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the
last 15 years.”

:eyebrow:

You don't understand Pop's dry humor by that comment lol


At least Popovich is doing something familiar as he takes the first step toward another season. He and his staff leave for the West Coast on Friday for their annual retreat, where, as Popovich said, “the arguing will begin.” […] Otherwise, Popovich says this is business as usual. “Same culture, same philosophy,” he said. “I only know what I know. We’ll hang our hat on defense. We just don’t have the greatest power forward of all-time playing for us anymore.”

Also the fact that he said it against Utah. Lots of Jazz fans, even their commentators refuse to say he's a PF, for obvious reasons. TD was hardly listed on the lineup sheets listed as a C, and obviously it's Pop and the coaching staff who does that. Pop just playing some mind games.

Redrum187
02-13-2018, 05:42 PM
Someone needs to ask Duncan who he thinks the 2nd greatest PF is. My boner for Duncan and Dirk make me think he'll say Dirk...

Shammyguy3
02-13-2018, 06:47 PM
You don't understand Pop's dry humor by that comment lol



Also the fact that he said it against Utah. Lots of Jazz fans, even their commentators refuse to say he's a PF, for obvious reasons. TD was hardly listed on the lineup sheets listed as a C, and obviously it's Pop and the coaching staff who does that. Pop just playing some mind games.

maybe the dry humor went over my head, but honestly, what makes Duncan's game any different than other centers? There have been a lot of "bigs" that are able to play both positions, right? If David Robinson wasn't with the Spurs for Duncan's early years, would we all think differently? My guess is, yes. Duncan played the 4 next to the Admiral, but through it all he still played an excessive amount of minutes at the 5.

flea
02-13-2018, 08:35 PM
maybe the dry humor went over my head, but honestly, what makes Duncan's game any different than other centers? There have been a lot of "bigs" that are able to play both positions, right? If David Robinson wasn't with the Spurs for Duncan's early years, would we all think differently? My guess is, yes. Duncan played the 4 next to the Admiral, but through it all he still played an excessive amount of minutes at the 5.

He didn't just play the 4 next to Robinson though. Rasho, Splitter, Perdue, etc. He could play both. Bird played PF for basically half his career, so did Worthy and I'd almost consider Worthy a PF because he did it when he was at his best. Every great player can play multiple positions - the one they functionally play on defense depends on a lot of things. Lebron is much more of a PG than Duncan is a C, for example. And if you disagree, then Magic is much more of a SF than he is a PG for the same reasons you'll say Lebron is a SF.

I was recently watching Duncan's first playoff game in 1998 against the Suns and Duncan started at SF in that game. Pop started Will Perdue on Cliff Robinson, Robinson on McDyess, and Duncan actually guarded Jason Kidd. He did a lot of different things early in his career because of how well he moved. I think Pop did it there though mainly because Duncan could handle it and because he didn't want his young star in early foul trouble - probably also to get his only real backup big involved early too since Ainge played smallball.

1) Duncan
2) Dirk
3) Barkely
4) Malone
5) McHale
6) KG
7) Gasol
8) Webber
9) Pettit
10) Debuscherre I guess, could go Bosh or maybe Rodman if I really convinced myself.

KnicksorBust
02-13-2018, 10:20 PM
Dan Roundfield

:laugh: Mad I didn't think to do it first.

Chronz
02-14-2018, 08:20 AM
"Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year’s playoff series against Utah. When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the
last 15 years.”

:eyebrow:

Lol first thing I thought of

kdspurman
02-14-2018, 01:55 PM
Lol first thing I thought of

You got Pop'd too

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-14-2018, 05:39 PM
Duncan is a power forward. That's the position he played most in his prime.

Heediot
02-14-2018, 05:50 PM
maybe the dry humor went over my head, but honestly, what makes Duncan's game any different than other centers? There have been a lot of "bigs" that are able to play both positions, right? If David Robinson wasn't with the Spurs for Duncan's early years, would we all think differently? My guess is, yes. Duncan played the 4 next to the Admiral, but through it all he still played an excessive amount of minutes at the 5.

I agree.

Duncan was projected as a 5 before the draft. He was probably the tallest and biggest starter for most of the post admiral years.

Heediot
02-14-2018, 06:14 PM
If Drafted by most other teams outside of a select few, there is no doubt in my mind Tim would have been a 5.

Pops kept him the ''4'' because the saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it. Spurs and what they had going = bread and butter (in terms of winning and contending) with him playing where he was for the first decade.

If you look at the so called 5's in the year he was drafted, he was closely built more like them vs. the so called PF's.

Pre-draft he was Projected to be more of a 5 with the ability to play the 4.

Nothing wrong with him being a 4 or PF, but in my subjective opinion he's more of a natural 5.

ewing
02-14-2018, 06:41 PM
So Duncan is a 5 b/c he was more versatile then the other 4s?

valade16
02-14-2018, 06:42 PM
Here is a draft profile on Duncan:

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1997_draft/scout/c.html

Scouts have mixed opinions on Duncan's NBA position. He may be a more
dominant player early on in his career at power forward but has the
tools to be a dominant center. His position will depend on the team
that selects him.

Heediot
02-14-2018, 09:36 PM
Here is a draft profile on Duncan:

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1997_draft/scout/c.html

Scouts have mixed opinions on Duncan's NBA position. He may be a more
dominant player early on in his career at power forward but has the
tools to be a dominant center. His position will depend on the team
that selects him.


So Duncan is a 5 b/c he was more versatile then the other 4s?


Watching the draft videos the profile for Duncan is Center, and you can here John Thompson mention how much work it's going to be for the Spurs for him to be a forward for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho8OT89WI6w

Marcus Camby another tweener coming out the year before has PF on his draft profile. Personally I thought he was more a natural PF vs. C, His draft profile in this video states PF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljHn1MLdO1I

I stand by my view that I think he would of been a center on most teams if he weren't drafted by the Spurs. He'd play PF due to fit next to teams that would already had an Elite 5 like Spurs, NY, LAL, Hou, Mia, etc....

Back then I followed the expansion Raptors hard too, and most of the time I remembered him pre draft lottery mentioned as more of a 5 in the nba. Once the Spurs won the draft lottery, the talk of PF picked up more steam. If the Celtics would have won the Lottery like the way they tanked and were wanting to, he would of been a 5 for them.

I also followed Duncan and Camby a lot in their College days. Camby was a beast in College, him and Calipari led UMAss to a number overall seed in the tourney could've been 2 overall next to Kentucky, but it was one or the other. Him and Duncan were the big talk and media made Rivals because of their size, skill and defense. Camby was more projected as the 4 and Duncan leaned more towards the 5.

This is my personal experience of the draft scene around 96-97.

Being from Toronto, I was following guys like the two above and guys like Iverson, Ray Allen, Marbury, and KG because in HS I was big on the expansion Raptors.

ewing
02-15-2018, 12:37 PM
Watching the draft videos the profile for Duncan is Center, and you can here John Thompson mention how much work it's going to be for the Spurs for him to be a forward for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho8OT89WI6w

Marcus Camby another tweener coming out the year before has PF on his draft profile. Personally I thought he was more a natural PF vs. C, His draft profile in this video states PF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljHn1MLdO1I

I stand by my view that I think he would of been a center on most teams if he weren't drafted by the Spurs. He'd play PF due to fit next to teams that would already had an Elite 5 like Spurs, NY, LAL, Hou, Mia, etc....

Back then I followed the expansion Raptors hard too, and most of the time I remembered him pre draft lottery mentioned as more of a 5 in the nba. Once the Spurs won the draft lottery, the talk of PF picked up more steam. If the Celtics would have won the Lottery like the way they tanked and were wanting to, he would of been a 5 for them.

I also followed Duncan and Camby a lot in their College days. Camby was a beast in College, him and Calipari led UMAss to a number overall seed in the tourney could've been 2 overall next to Kentucky, but it was one or the other. Him and Duncan were the big talk and media made Rivals because of their size, skill and defense. Camby was more projected as the 4 and Duncan leaned more towards the 5.

This is my personal experience of the draft scene around 96-97.

Being from Toronto, I was following guys like the two above and guys like Iverson, Ray Allen, Marbury, and KG because in HS I was big on the expansion Raptors.

I don't see what your point is. He played 4 therefore he is was a 4. The fact that he was the greatest 4 of all time despite you thinking he would be a more natural 5 just makes him that much more incredible. Tim Duncan played PF and therefore is the greatest PF of all time.

Chronz
02-15-2018, 12:48 PM
He didn't just play the 4 next to Robinson though. Rasho, Splitter, Perdue, etc. He could play both. Bird played PF for basically half his career, so did Worthy and I'd almost consider Worthy a PF because he did it when he was at his best. Every great player can play multiple positions - the one they functionally play on defense depends on a lot of things. Lebron is much more of a PG than Duncan is a C, for example. And if you disagree, then Magic is much more of a SF than he is a PG for the same reasons you'll say Lebron is a SF.

I was recently watching Duncan's first playoff game in 1998 against the Suns and Duncan started at SF in that game. Pop started Will Perdue on Cliff Robinson, Robinson on McDyess, and Duncan actually guarded Jason Kidd. He did a lot of different things early in his career because of how well he moved. I think Pop did it there though mainly because Duncan could handle it and because he didn't want his young star in early foul trouble - probably also to get his only real backup big involved early too since Ainge played smallball.

1) Duncan
2) Dirk
3) Barkely
4) Malone
5) McHale
6) KG
7) Gasol
8) Webber
9) Pettit
10) Debuscherre I guess, could go Bosh or maybe Rodman if I really convinced myself.

I remember that series, didn't ainge try to go big and pop countered by going bigger, lol what a troll. Suns always suffer injuries in the playoffs so my memory is hazy on that one but I do recall Avery going berserk tho, really made me doubt kidds defense for the first time

Chronz
02-15-2018, 12:51 PM
I don't see what your point is. He played 4 therefore he is was a 4. The fact that he was the greatest 4 of all time despite you thinking he would be a more natural 5 just makes him that much more incredible. Tim Duncan played PF and therefore is the greatest PF of all time.

Yeah but he played center more than most and in today's game would play it even more. Of course it makes him more incredible, that's kind of the point. It's hard to find pf that would rank higher than most centers. He can hide behind the pf label but that's why I rank swings and bigs separately, in today's game the pg is basically dead

Heediot
02-15-2018, 12:52 PM
I don't see what your point is. He played 4 therefore he is was a 4. The fact that he was the greatest 4 of all time despite you thinking he would be a more natural 5 just makes him that much more incredible. Tim Duncan played PF and therefore is the greatest PF of all time.

I think Shammyguy has a valid point. I'm chiming in that he has a valid viewpoint.

Will Perdue played the 4 after he was traded for Rodman on the Spurs in many lineups. Before that he was mainly a 5 on the Bulls. I think team construction matters.

I have no problem with Duncan being labelled a 4.

I am a big Duncan homer and it would serve my bias towards him better being a 4, as the 5 position is historically the most stacked.

That's true what you said though about his ability to play the 4 as well as he has considering how his body, game and main strengths lean towards a dominant 5. The again for the early part of his career, you can get away more with two massive bigs. Nowadays, it's hard to have an elite team with two all-star level bigs on your team.

Shammyguy3
02-15-2018, 02:18 PM
Yeah but he played center more than most and in today's game would play it even more. Of course it makes him more incredible, that's kind of the point. It's hard to find pf that would rank higher than most centers. He can hide behind the pf label but that's why I rank swings and bigs separately, in today's game the pg is basically dead

This is kinda my point. Just because I see him as a 5, doesn't mean he couldn't play the 4. That brings value, certainly. And it's not about me "being the smartest guy in the room" @MBT. So to me, he's a top-5 center of all-time. I don't consider him a 4, but if you labeled him a 4 then yes he would be the greatest ever. Which, I think some people like to do just because it is easier to rank him versus those other PFs than other Cs.

valade16
02-15-2018, 02:47 PM
This is kinda my point. Just because I see him as a 5, doesn't mean he couldn't play the 4. That brings value, certainly. And it's not about me "being the smartest guy in the room" @MBT. So to me, he's a top-5 center of all-time. I don't consider him a 4, but if you labeled him a 4 then yes he would be the greatest ever. Which, I think some people like to do just because it is easier to rank him versus those other PFs than other Cs.

I do wonder where people would rank Duncan as a Center.

Chronz
02-15-2018, 03:08 PM
This is kinda my point. Just because I see him as a 5, doesn't mean he couldn't play the 4. That brings value, certainly. And it's not about me "being the smartest guy in the room" @MBT. So to me, he's a top-5 center of all-time. I don't consider him a 4, but if you labeled him a 4 then yes he would be the greatest ever. Which, I think some people like to do just because it is easier to rank him versus those other PFs than other Cs.
Bingo. It's partly why i grade west as a pg, it's just easier to classify and its a position he would play far more today

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-15-2018, 05:01 PM
Bingo. It's partly why i grade west as a pg, it's just easier to classify and its a position he would play far more today

They shouldn't be judged by what position they "would" play today. They should judged by the position they actually did play in their era and more specifically, the position they played in their peak. This is why I classify Duncan as a PF.

flea
02-15-2018, 09:14 PM
I remember that series, didn't ainge try to go big and pop countered by going bigger, lol what a troll. Suns always suffer injuries in the playoffs so my memory is hazy on that one but I do recall Avery going berserk tho, really made me doubt kidds defense for the first time

Elliott tore his quad (2nd in like 2 years) and was out for the year but yeah the Suns also had injuries (KJ always hurt but he played) but nothing as important as him as a starter. I think it really was more Pop playing chess and trying to get his backup big minutes early since Rifleman was ancient and the Spurs guards were pretty weak.

Anyway the only really cool thing about the series besides being Duncan's first was watching McDyess. He has always been a favorite role player of mine but he was such a superstar-in-waiting before knees killed it. Between him and Grant Hill we were really robbed of some great frontcourt basketball. I think KG vs. Dice would be an argument today if not for that, same as Carter or T-Mac v. Hill being a real debate.

bagwell368
02-23-2018, 04:34 PM
Go sort out Duncan's career by highest WS/48. All top 4: PF. Also 6 of the top 8. Now it's true that was in his age 29 and earlier seasons - but he had 4 more big years at C before the age caught up with him.

In baseball they count guys where they were more valuable. Carew at 2B, not 1B.

When I sit around thinking up the best 12 man team of all time. I think tweeners at PF. Duncan. KG lesser extent, McHale (PF, SF, C), Bird (SF, PF)

To me a guy is more valuable if he's capable at two positions. Problems with categorization is your problem, not his.

Duncan is the #1 PF IMO.

At Center?

You have dominant low post guys. Wilt, Moses, Shaq

You have Jabbar who could not handle very strong guys like Moses and Walton, but had the hook.

You have more athletic mobile guys like Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem

No way Duncan is #1 at C. Hakeem is the best all around. Others better depending on what you want.

Duncan makes the most sense at PF - because he was best at that.

Shammyguy3
02-23-2018, 04:54 PM
Go sort out Duncan's career by highest WS/48. All top 4: PF. Also 6 of the top 8. Now it's true that was in his age 29 and earlier seasons - but he had 4 more big years at C before the age caught up with him.

In baseball they count guys where they were more valuable. Carew at 2B, not 1B.

When I sit around thinking up the best 12 man team of all time. I think tweeners at PF. Duncan. KG lesser extent, McHale (PF, SF, C), Bird (SF, PF)

To me a guy is more valuable if he's capable at two positions. Problems with categorization is your problem, not his.

Duncan is the #1 PF IMO.

At Center?

You have dominant low post guys. Wilt, Moses, Shaq

You have Jabbar who could not handle very strong guys like Moses and Walton, but had the hook.

You have more athletic mobile guys like Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem

No way Duncan is #1 at C. Hakeem is the best all around. Others better depending on what you want.

Duncan makes the most sense at PF - because he was best at that.

Question, if Kareem and Duncan swapped eras and teams. Wouldn't Kareem be considered a PF because Robinson was more of a back to the basket player, and Kareem had range with that sky hook? And then, wouldn't Duncan be considered a center?

kdspurman
02-23-2018, 05:07 PM
Question, if Kareem and Duncan swapped eras and teams. Wouldn't Kareem be considered a PF because Robinson was more of a back to the basket player, and Kareem had range with that sky hook? And then, wouldn't Duncan be considered a center?


D-Rob played super versatile ball tho. Face up, ran the break well, had the mid range shot. He probably had more range shooting the ball from the outside than KAJ did.

Shammyguy3
02-23-2018, 05:23 PM
D-Rob played super versatile ball tho. Face up, ran the break well, had the mid range shot. He probably had more range shooting the ball from the outside than KAJ did.

So would we consider David Robinson a PF then?


:eyebrow: you kinda still make my point. Many consider Duncan a PF due to circumstance, just like the above hypothetical would change many's viewpoint on either Robinson's or Kareem's position.

Chronz
02-23-2018, 05:51 PM
So would we consider David Robinson a PF then?


:eyebrow: you kinda still make my point. Many consider Duncan a PF due to circumstance, just like the above hypothetical would change many's viewpoint on either Robinson's or Kareem's position.
My thoughts exactly. Drob, 3rd greatest pf

Shammyguy3
02-23-2018, 05:58 PM
My thoughts exactly. Drob, 3rd greatest pf

:laugh2:

kdspurman
02-23-2018, 06:07 PM
So would we consider David Robinson a PF then?


:eyebrow: you kinda still make my point. Many consider Duncan a PF due to circumstance, just like the above hypothetical would change many's viewpoint on either Robinson's or Kareem's position.

I mean they're just versatile players who probably could play either position if needed depending on the circumstances.

But Duncan's best years came with him playing the 4, and he was at that position most of his career. That's what we rank based upon right? Not ranked based upon what they "could have been positioned at if they were drafted by X team"

Teams played with 2 bigs more in his days anyway. Webber/Divac, Wallace/Wallace, Pau/Bynum, to name a few. Do you consider all those guys who are listed as PF's to be C's because of who they play next to? All of the 4's were capable of playing the 5 and probably did at some point.

Shammyguy3
02-23-2018, 06:13 PM
I mean they're just versatile players who probably could play either position if needed depending on the circumstances.

But Duncan's best years came with him playing the 4, and he was at that position most of his career. That's what we rank based upon right? Not ranked based upon what they "could have been positioned at if they were drafted by X team"

Teams played with 2 bigs more in his days anyway. Webber/Divac, Wallace/Wallace, Pau/Bynum, to name a few. Do you consider all those guys who are listed as PF's to be C's because of who they play next to? All of the 4's were capable of playing the 5 and probably did at some point.

I understand why it is easier to make those rankings/lists by this line of logic. But do you see where I am coming from? I think my Duncan/Kareem swap made it rather clear, that we would have totally different opinions on at least 2 of Duncan/Kareem/Robinson.

kdspurman
02-23-2018, 06:17 PM
I understand why it is easier to make those rankings/lists by this line of logic. But do you see where I am coming from? I think my Duncan/Kareem swap made it rather clear, that we would have totally different opinions on at least 2 of Duncan/Kareem/Robinson.

Yea I get that, but that's all hypothetical. We have to rank on what happened, not hypothetical situations, no?

Shammyguy3
02-23-2018, 06:19 PM
I understand why it is easier to make those rankings/lists by this line of logic. But do you see where I am coming from? I think my Duncan/Kareem swap made it rather clear, that we would have totally different opinions on at least 2 of Duncan/Kareem/Robinson.

EDIT: I will add, and reconfirm, that Duncan's ability to be labeled a 4 or 5 is immensely valuable. He's a lot more fun to build a team around in an all-time draft than Kareem/Wilt/Shaq/Hakeem/Admiral because he provides versatility with the next picks, allowing you to take BPA at the 4 or 5 slot and work it out from there.

Chronz
02-23-2018, 06:33 PM
I mean they're just versatile players who probably could play either position if needed depending on the circumstances.

But Duncan's best years came with him playing the 4, and he was at that position most of his career. That's what we rank based upon right? Not ranked based upon what they "could have been positioned at if they were drafted by X team"

Teams played with 2 bigs more in his days anyway. Webber/Divac, Wallace/Wallace, Pau/Bynum, to name a few. Do you consider all those guys who are listed as PF's to be C's because of who they play next to? All of the 4's were capable of playing the 5 and probably did at some point.
Agreed, paus ability to play the five is a plus over a guy like KG who loathed it, but what's the big deal about ranking players based on tradition? Duncan played more like a center than any of the guys you listed for the majority of his career. On most teams in history, he's their center. Rank him where you want but there's a difference in comp. Duncan had the luxury to play the 4 just as much as he had the skill set for it. Lucky mo****r man

Chronz
02-23-2018, 06:34 PM
Yea I get that, but that's all hypothetical. We have to rank on what happened, not hypothetical situations, no?

Why tho. It's circumstantial, should the circumstances not be noticed