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valade16
02-05-2018, 06:09 PM
So we do a “top 25 greatest players of all-time list” here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T-3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T-3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O’Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry

valade16
02-05-2018, 06:11 PM
Aside from one obvious abnormality, the list isn't looking too bad.

I have added Tracy McGrady as an option based on the nominations from the previous thread.

mightybosstone
02-05-2018, 07:13 PM
This is the first time I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on anybody. You could make a great case for a dozen guys here. I was leaning toward Wade or Oscar here, but KOB did make a pretty damn convincing case for Moses and that peak season in Philly. And if Barkley, Robinson or KD ended up going here, I wouldn't lose any sleep over over those guys either.

I'm really curious to see how this one plays out.

europagnpilgrim
02-05-2018, 08:09 PM
You should have just titled this the ''euro thread'' because I am the only one on here who speaks of who is the actually best/most dominant and you determine who is the best on who would you draft to start a team with from scratch, the media confuses most because of how they muddy the waters for certain players with rings or certain players who were backup turned starters who now turn into top 10 players greatest all time

like how can you be in the most dominant/best ever discussion and you are not even a nba starter until year 4-5?

its like some people view Nash as a top 5 PG ever based on his two mvp's but Nash isn't better to me than C.Jackson or K.Johnson who have zero combined nba mvps, but Nash and his two mvp's who make him look ''great'' while I would still say the better/more dominant player C.Jackson from HS to NCAA to NBA, Nash just had a longer run in the nba, but skill/game wise he would **** on Nash from a pure eye test

its a reason why Phil Jackson said Curry reminds him of C Jackson aka Abdul rauf, he had that type of range and release, he can still shoot lights out at his age today, because that shot doesn't go away,just the legs/bounce

europagnpilgrim
02-05-2018, 08:12 PM
Chris Jackson is not underneath Curry as far as pure shooting with range rather spotting up or coming off screens or off the bounce, he is either 1 or 1a, game film don't lie

tredigs
02-05-2018, 08:34 PM
Chris Jackson is not underneath Curry as far as pure shooting with range rather spotting up or coming off screens or off the bounce, he is either 1 or 1a, game film don't lie

Curry's the best mid range spot up shooter in the game right now, and is the GOAT FT/3pt shooter. His worst 3pt shooting season is better than Abdul Rauf's best. That's how silly your takes are sometimes.

Shammyguy3
02-05-2018, 09:07 PM
You should have just titled this the ''euro thread'' because I am the only one on here who speaks of who is the actually best/most dominant and you determine who is the best on who would you draft to start a team with from scratch, the media confuses most because of how they muddy the waters for certain players with rings or certain players who were backup turned starters who now turn into top 10 players greatest all time

like how can you be in the most dominant/best ever discussion and you are not even a nba starter until year 4-5?

its like some people view Nash as a top 5 PG ever based on his two mvp's but Nash isn't better to me than C.Jackson or K.Johnson who have zero combined nba mvps, but Nash and his two mvp's who make him look ''great'' while I would still say the better/more dominant player C.Jackson from HS to NCAA to NBA, Nash just had a longer run in the nba, but skill/game wise he would **** on Nash from a pure eye test

its a reason why Phil Jackson said Curry reminds him of C Jackson aka Abdul rauf, he had that type of range and release, he can still shoot lights out at his age today, because that shot doesn't go away,just the legs/bounce

Nash is better than K. Johnson. The gap isn't large, I could see why you would say KJ > Nash. But Abdul-Rauf? :laugh: dear lord

Shammyguy3
02-05-2018, 09:08 PM
I'm gonna go Wade ahead of Moses, but Moses will be my next vote

valade16
02-05-2018, 09:10 PM
You should have just titled this the ''euro thread'' because I am the only one on here who speaks of who is the actually best/most dominant and you determine who is the best on who would you draft to start a team with from scratch, the media confuses most because of how they muddy the waters for certain players with rings or certain players who were backup turned starters who now turn into top 10 players greatest all time

like how can you be in the most dominant/best ever discussion and you are not even a nba starter until year 4-5?

its like some people view Nash as a top 5 PG ever based on his two mvp's but Nash isn't better to me than C.Jackson or K.Johnson who have zero combined nba mvps, but Nash and his two mvp's who make him look ''great'' while I would still say the better/more dominant player C.Jackson from HS to NCAA to NBA, Nash just had a longer run in the nba, but skill/game wise he would **** on Nash from a pure eye test

its a reason why Phil Jackson said Curry reminds him of C Jackson aka Abdul rauf, he had that type of range and release, he can still shoot lights out at his age today, because that shot doesn't go away,just the legs/bounce

I don't think you're getting the point of this exercise. I'm asking specifically if they were all at their best, so if they weren't as good their first 4-5 years and were backups and then became better players later and started games, I'm asking if them later as the better player is the best.

Essentially, we are specifically looking at if Nash were at his absolute peak abilities and Kevin Johnson were at his absolute peak abilities, which one would you take?

WaDe03
02-05-2018, 10:31 PM
This should be Wade again, well see what you all do.

lakerfan85
02-05-2018, 10:43 PM
This should be Wade again, well see what you all do.

Does D matter in these drafts??

WaDe03
02-05-2018, 10:44 PM
Does D matter in these drafts??

It definitely should.

GREATNESS ONE
02-05-2018, 11:05 PM
Does D matter in these drafts??

lolz no.

tredigs
02-05-2018, 11:06 PM
'81 to '83 Moses Malone (this is not even including an MVP season 2 years prior) is a better peak than anything we've seen from D Wade. He averaged 28 and 15 (6 Orebounds... a truly GOAT level rebounder) on a 58% TS and lead the league in PER + Win Shares both seasons (the ppg leader in 81 on 31ppg). He was the b2b MVP (one near unanimous... over guys like like Prime Bird, Magic and Dr. J) AND the best player/Finals MVP in one of the most dominant playoff runs in history by those Sixers. They swept the defending Champion Lakers in the Finals and only lost one game in total. Moses being the clear most dominant player on the floor in a series that pitted him h2h against a still prime Kareem (3 years prior to his last All NBA 1st Team and Finals MVP) and All NBA 1st Teamers Magic and Dr. J.

Simply put, that's clearly a more impressive peak than D Wade or any other SG not named Michael Jordan.

Ahriman
02-06-2018, 07:04 AM
I was torn between D-Rob, Wade & CP3. A case can be made for most of the players in that poll though (except T-Mac imo)

I'd have leant toward D-Rob for his 93/94 season. He destroyed everyone in the regular season on path to a 55-27 season but laid a huge dud in the playoffs (first round out vs Utah, 20 pts avg on 41% shooting).

Then it is a toss for me between 05/06 Wade and 07/08 Paul. While Wade culminated with a title during that season, he had a team of seasoned veterans (Shaq, Zo, Payton) with a great coach in Pat, so I think that helped a lot in the team success, even though he was unstoppable that year.

But looking at Paul, he was on a okay team but nothing exceptionnal (up & coming West, past his prime Peja, prime physical Chandler tho) and coached by... Byron Scott (though he won COY that year lmao)
Now what always amazed me with Paul is his faculty to share the ball without turning it over. That year he had a 4.3/1 AST/TO ratio (on par with Stockton best AST/TO ratio season in 88/89) and averaged more steals than turnover. Add to that a good 0.488/0.369 shooting season (league avg was 0.457/0.362).
He led the season on two raw stats (APG, STL PG) and two advanced stats (WS & WS/48)
He then followed that with an equally good offseason stat wise, ousted in the 2nd round by SA in 7. It was his first PO appareance and he led it in WS/48

So for me it is Paul :)

KnicksorBust
02-06-2018, 09:02 AM
'81 to '83 Moses Malone (this is not even including an MVP season 2 years prior) is a better peak than anything we've seen from D Wade. He averaged 28 and 15 (6 Orebounds... a truly GOAT level rebounder) on a 58% TS and lead the league in PER + Win Shares both seasons (the ppg leader in 81 on 31ppg). He was the b2b MVP (one near unanimous... over guys like like Prime Bird, Magic and Dr. J) AND the best player/Finals MVP in one of the most dominant playoff runs in history by those Sixers. They swept the defending Champion Lakers in the Finals and only lost one game in total. Moses being the clear most dominant player on the floor in a series that pitted him h2h against a still prime Kareem (3 years prior to his last All NBA 1st Team and Finals MVP) and All NBA 1st Teamers Magic and Dr. J.

Simply put, that's clearly a more impressive peak than D Wade or any other SG not named Michael Jordan.

Saved me the trouble here. Pure stats makes it possible to argue several players here but the most compelling argument here is that he wins regular season mvp over #7 on this list and sweeps #6 and #3 in the Finals. Sweeps them. While clearly outplaying Kareem in that series. He has a better case to be put in top 10 than to be pushed to 13/14/15.To me personally Moses is a tier above the players that are left. He needs to go here.

More-Than-Most
02-06-2018, 09:42 AM
didnt see moses... can you change my vote to moses please. I voted Tmac

WaDe03
02-06-2018, 10:36 AM
Blasphemy

europagnpilgrim
02-06-2018, 10:43 AM
I don't think you're getting the point of this exercise. I'm asking specifically if they were all at their best, so if they weren't as good their first 4-5 years and were backups and then became better players later and started games, I'm asking if them later as the better player is the best.

Essentially, we are specifically looking at if Nash were at his absolute peak abilities and Kevin Johnson were at his absolute peak abilities, which one would you take?

what do you mean absolute peak? like for instance what did Nash do any different from college to pros? besides eventually start after being a backup? So should I just say his absolute peak was his back to back mvps? I mean he was still the same player with the Mavs but the Suns system was more uptempo which allowed him to play more freely and accumulate more assists, Nash was the same player his first stint with Suns as well so I don't get this absolute peak ****, its like when did Wilt peak? the guy almost avg 40ppg as a rookie so did he peak at 50ppg 2yrs later? or did he peak at Kansas when he was destroying that competition

see the best/most dominant players have no peak, they just decline after a decade plus of dominanting on a individual level, like that player you know is going to get the ball and not be stopped rather it be scoring or playmaking for mates

K Johnson is drafted over Nash, C Jackson Abdul rauf over both, he had so many 50pt college games with a missile 3pt heat seeker

I get exactly what you are saying because I am the reason why this thread is even up, I know who are the best most dominant players, it takes no PER or TS% or whatever alphabet stat gang you psd experts love to preach about and lean on until it gets totally destroyed like it did with the Iverson debate and his inefficient ways(while glossing over his inefficient roster)

europagnpilgrim
02-06-2018, 10:50 AM
So we do a “top 25 greatest players of all-time list” here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T-3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T-3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille O’Neal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Steph Curry

Wilt and Jabbar are too low and Bird is way too damn high, he is not a top 10 best most dominant player ever, Maravich was better offensively and way more exciting to watch, Bird was good don't get it twisted but I will always fall back on what Rodman said about him during that playoff series, if he was a ''black'' player it would just be another day at the office with those stats

J West should be over Bird and West isn't in my top 10 best most dominant players, you got Curry at 11th? you got Kobe at 10th? a backup to Eddie Jones for almost 4yrs?

what the hell? its like you still went with the most decorated players and not the most dominant because Wilt is easily number 1 overall, they call the record books the unauthorized biography of Wilt, he is no less than 1a, but you got him tied for 3rd, get the **** outta here

just based on the dominance that Wilt and Jabbar/Alcindor showed from HS to NCAA to NBA is the most dominant stretch by any players ever

C Jackson is every bit the player Curry was and to me his killer instinct kills Curry since we all know they both can shoot the lights out off the dribble or spot up but Curry has 2 mvps to his resume which means his career is more decorated and not necessarily is the 'better' player, Curry father can shoot just as good as his son and C Jackson but he couldn't create it off the bounce like those two could which seperates them from the father

its what seperates Iverson from the Nash/Stockton tier, CP3/AI/Magic/Zeke/Oscar are the cream of the crop PG's with a few others there, and yeah Iverson was drafted a PG out of G'Town, and his height warrants that label as well, he was 5'10'' max, go ask Lebron

HandsOnTheWheel
02-06-2018, 11:08 AM
Seriously, Moses? Lmao how many of you actually watched that season? Be honest.

Wade should be the selection here but people seem to have a personal vendetta against him on this site so he probably won't get picked till around 20. Watch.

GREATNESS ONE
02-06-2018, 11:09 AM
Seriously, Moses? Lmao how many of you actually watched that season? Be honest.

Wade should be the selection here but people seem to have a personal vendetta against him on this site so he probably won't get picked till around 20. Watch.

lolz agreed.

KnicksorBust
02-06-2018, 12:21 PM
what do you mean absolute peak? like for instance what did Nash do any different from college to pros? besides eventually start after being a backup? So should I just say his absolute peak was his back to back mvps? I mean he was still the same player with the Mavs but the Suns system was more uptempo which allowed him to play more freely and accumulate more assists, Nash was the same player his first stint with Suns as well so I don't get this absolute peak ****, its like when did Wilt peak? the guy almost avg 40ppg as a rookie so did he peak at 50ppg 2yrs later? or did he peak at Kansas when he was destroying that competition

see the best/most dominant players have no peak, they just decline after a decade plus of dominanting on a individual level, like that player you know is going to get the ball and not be stopped rather it be scoring or playmaking for mates

K Johnson is drafted over Nash, C Jackson Abdul rauf over both, he had so many 50pt college games with a missile 3pt heat seeker

I get exactly what you are saying because I am the reason why this thread is even up, I know who are the best most dominant players, it takes no PER or TS% or whatever alphabet stat gang you psd experts love to preach about and lean on until it gets totally destroyed like it did with the Iverson debate and his inefficient ways(while glossing over his inefficient roster)


Wilt and Jabbar are too low and Bird is way too damn high, he is not a top 10 best most dominant player ever, Maravich was better offensively and way more exciting to watch, Bird was good don't get it twisted but I will always fall back on what Rodman said about him during that playoff series, if he was a ''black'' player it would just be another day at the office with those stats

J West should be over Bird and West isn't in my top 10 best most dominant players, you got Curry at 11th? you got Kobe at 10th? a backup to Eddie Jones for almost 4yrs?

what the hell? its like you still went with the most decorated players and not the most dominant because Wilt is easily number 1 overall, they call the record books the unauthorized biography of Wilt, he is no less than 1a, but you got him tied for 3rd, get the **** outta here

just based on the dominance that Wilt and Jabbar/Alcindor showed from HS to NCAA to NBA is the most dominant stretch by any players ever

C Jackson is every bit the player Curry was and to me his killer instinct kills Curry since we all know they both can shoot the lights out off the dribble or spot up but Curry has 2 mvps to his resume which means his career is more decorated and not necessarily is the 'better' player, Curry father can shoot just as good as his son and C Jackson but he couldn't create it off the bounce like those two could which seperates them from the father

its what seperates Iverson from the Nash/Stockton tier, CP3/AI/Magic/Zeke/Oscar are the cream of the crop PG's with a few others there, and yeah Iverson was drafted a PG out of G'Town, and his height warrants that label as well, he was 5'10'' max, go ask Lebron

Your posts are impossible. I want to take you seriously but you keep calling C Jackson better than Curry and it makes no sense.

KnicksorBust
02-06-2018, 12:21 PM
Seriously, Moses? Lmao how many of you actually watched that season? Be honest.

Wade should be the selection here but people seem to have a personal vendetta against him on this site so he probably won't get picked till around 20. Watch.

So unless we are 80 years old we can't put Wilt on the list either? Make a real argument.

Wade will go top 15. Watch.

valade16
02-06-2018, 01:18 PM
what do you mean absolute peak? like for instance what did Nash do any different from college to pros? besides eventually start after being a backup? So should I just say his absolute peak was his back to back mvps? I mean he was still the same player with the Mavs but the Suns system was more uptempo which allowed him to play more freely and accumulate more assists, Nash was the same player his first stint with Suns as well so I don't get this absolute peak ****, its like when did Wilt peak? the guy almost avg 40ppg as a rookie so did he peak at 50ppg 2yrs later? or did he peak at Kansas when he was destroying that competition

see the best/most dominant players have no peak, they just decline after a decade plus of dominanting on a individual level, like that player you know is going to get the ball and not be stopped rather it be scoring or playmaking for mates

K Johnson is drafted over Nash, C Jackson Abdul rauf over both, he had so many 50pt college games with a missile 3pt heat seeker

I get exactly what you are saying because I am the reason why this thread is even up, I know who are the best most dominant players, it takes no PER or TS% or whatever alphabet stat gang you psd experts love to preach about and lean on until it gets totally destroyed like it did with the Iverson debate and his inefficient ways(while glossing over his inefficient roster)

I'm not sure how to respond since in the same post you both asked what I meant and then said you know what I mean lol. I'm saying if all these players were at their best (according to however and whenever you think they were at their best), who would you want on your team?

As for the last paragraph I bolded, your complaint seems to be with others since I was the one in the AI thread defending AI lol.

valade16
02-06-2018, 01:27 PM
I get the love for Moses, but were his seasons really that much more impressive than Wade's?

Moses lost in the first round to the Rockets and then was traded to a 76ers team that was already stacked. Seriously, that 76er team had lost in the Finals to the Magic/Kareem Lakers 2-4 after beating the Bird Celtics. They had gone to the Finals 2/3 years prior to Moses.

They were already a championship contending level team, he just put them over the top. I'm still deciding between Wade and Moses personally.

tredigs
02-06-2018, 01:34 PM
Your posts are impossible. I want to take you seriously but you keep calling C Jackson better than Curry and it makes no sense.

What's not to take seriously? I mean like he said, if Joe Black-Guy was averaging 27/10/7 on near 50/40/90 as the leader of one of the greatest teams in history for the better part of a decade, he would still just be Joe Black-Guy. But because he's white now he's "Larry Legend"?!

And I'm with him. Abdul Rauf = Curry. Also I agree with his takes that players are who they are and don't improve. Take Giannis for example. This guy averaged 10/6/2 per 36 minutes on 41% from thr field as a rookie. WHY does everyone suddenly think THAT player deserves to be mentioned with the truly great players who dominated in college and were star #1 picks like Joe Smith?

tredigs
02-06-2018, 04:07 PM
Seriously, Moses? Lmao how many of you actually watched that season? Be honest.

Wade should be the selection here but people seem to have a personal vendetta against him on this site so he probably won't get picked till around 20. Watch.

This isn't the list for best peaks since the year 2000. Just because you did not see it, does not mean it did not happen.

HandsOnTheWheel
02-06-2018, 04:47 PM
This isn't the list for best peaks since the year 2000. Just because you did not see it, does not mean it did not happen.

..and you did?

valade16
02-06-2018, 05:08 PM
...and you did?

Is that really so implausible? How many games of all the modern NBA players has everybody actually seen? I watch Hardwood classics more than the regular NBA at times. Heck, I know for a fact I've seen more Moses Malone games all the way through than I have games of Devin Booker.

FlashBolt
02-06-2018, 06:32 PM
Can we do a citizen ban on Euro? This guy is nuts. At least his Wilt evidence made some sense but now he's just a troll. That Curry sentence was all you needed to know about how silly his takes are. I bet he thinks Allen Iverson is #2.

tredigs
02-06-2018, 06:45 PM
..and you did?
Whole season? Of course not. But I've seen the entire Finals sweep over the Lake Show, and I know how to interpret stats/accolades/opinions. Very few people here watched Wilt or Kareem's prime. Yet, that doesn't mean we don't know how to interpret how great they were. He'll most people on this site didn't watch Jordan's prime. He's still going 1. And really, how many times have you even seen an MVP level talent like Giannis play this season?