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Jeffy25
01-31-2018, 10:30 PM
Same as the PG thread

What are your top 10 SG's of all-time


1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler
6. Harden
7. Gervin
8. Iverson
9. Carter
10. Reggie Miller

Honorable mentions:
Ray Allen
Sam Jones
Walt Frazier
Jones
McGrady

Lakers + Giants
01-31-2018, 10:59 PM
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden
6. Drexler
7. Gervin
8. McGrady
9. Manu
10. Ray Allen

Honorable mention:#11 Sam Jones

valade16
01-31-2018, 11:51 PM
As a Blazer fan this is painful to admit, but it's getting to the point where I have to acknowledge Harden > Drexler for the 5th spot all-time.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 12:14 AM
Without too much thought, my list would look something like:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden
6. Drexler
7. McGrady
8. Gervin
9. Allen
10. Carter

Next 5
11. Iverson
12. Jones
13. Miller
14. Monroe
15. Ginobili

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 12:16 AM
As a Blazer fan this is painful to admit, but it's getting to the point where I have to acknowledge Harden > Drexler for the 5th spot all-time.

It makes me genuinely giddy to think of Harden as a top 5 player at his position. That would have seemed so ridiculous a few years ago, but I honestly think he's on pace to be the second greatest Rocket of all-time and that he's got a good chance to pass Wade as the 4th best SG ever.

Romeo Naes
02-01-2018, 12:25 AM
It makes me genuinely giddy to think of Harden as a top 5 player at his position. That would have seemed so ridiculous a few years ago, but I honestly think he's on pace to be the second greatest Rocket of all-time and that he's got a good chance to pass Wade as the 4th best SG ever.

Not so sure he could pass Wade so easily. He's probably got MVP locked up this season, but that NBA Finals MVP Wade has and his other titles are gonna be hard to top. Especially since Wade has some great years under him under a system that doesn't have Mike D'Antoni at the helm.

JordansBulls
02-01-2018, 12:33 AM
Harden vs Drexler is a good debate at this point.

Chronz
02-01-2018, 12:38 AM
Same as the PG thread

What are your top 10 SG's of all-time


1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler
6. Harden
7. Gervin
8. Iverson
9. Carter
10. Reggie Miller

Honorable mentions:
Ray Allen
Sam Jones
Walt Frazier
Jones
McGrady
MJ Kobe west wade drexler tmac Garvin Jones Ray Allen harden

Jeffy25
02-01-2018, 12:52 AM
As a Blazer fan this is painful to admit, but it's getting to the point where I have to acknowledge Harden > Drexler for the 5th spot all-time.

It was a toss up for me at the moment....so next year, he'll likely be ahead.

valade16
02-01-2018, 01:17 AM
It makes me genuinely giddy to think of Harden as a top 5 player at his position. That would have seemed so ridiculous a few years ago, but I honestly think he's on pace to be the second greatest Rocket of all-time and that he's got a good chance to pass Wade as the 4th best SG ever.

The only way I foresee Harden passing Wade all-time is with a ring (fair or not). Their peak stats are both otherworldly and you can't really argue one as statistically superior to the other, so Harden is going to need to have playoff success, even if it means taking the Rockets to the Finals and getting a commiserate view as Barkley or Karl Malone (which will be admittedly difficult in the age of the Warriors superteam).

Lakers + Giants
02-01-2018, 01:30 AM
Agreed. To pass wade he'd need to win a chip AND an MVP imo. This season he could very well be the MVP. If he can upset the dubs....

WaDe03
02-01-2018, 01:33 AM
You guys have to stop with West over Wade. First, West was a PG. Second, he's just simply not better. You can not tell me with a straight face you would rather build a team around West than you would Wade.

WaDe03
02-01-2018, 01:33 AM
Harden Won't pass Wade but I can see him passing Drexler eventually.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:36 AM
Kobe #2? Are you guys high, heís more like 8-12.

WaDe03
02-01-2018, 01:36 AM
MJ
Kobe
Wade
Drexler
Harden
Gervin
AI
Carter
Allen
Reggie

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:37 AM
You guys have to stop with West over Wade. First, West was a PG. Second, he's just simply not better. You can not tell me with a straight face you would rather build a team around West than you would Wade.

Apparently the PSD powers to be, have West as a SG not a PG. sooooo....


Also, I am actually one who really likes Wade, heís extremely underrated, but goodness if he comes to the Lakers next year with Bron and Iím saying if.... please donít tell me Iíll have to see you in our Lakers Forum for a whole season :p

WaDe03
02-01-2018, 01:50 AM
Apparently the PSD powers to be, have West as a SG not a PG. sooooo....


Also, I am actually one who really likes Wade, heís extremely underrated, but goodness if he comes to the Lakers next year with Bron and Iím saying if.... please donít tell me Iíll have to see you in our Lakers Forum for a whole season :p

I'm in there like swimwear!!!

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:52 AM
I'm in there like swimwear!!!

:laugh2: I ****ing thought so! Lol well, I guess it is what it is!

KingPosey
02-01-2018, 03:20 AM
Mitch richmond

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 03:23 AM
Mitch richmond

Doug Christie?

KingPosey
02-01-2018, 03:26 AM
Harden is a REALLY ****ing good basketball player, but for me, the zero defense and close to all time worst turnover rate with the rockets really need to be considered when he is placed within the greats. Also the way he absolutely CRUMBLES in elimination games hopefully corrects itself. Basketball more so than other sports, crunchtime, clutch and rings, small sample size stuff seems to Matter more when debating rankings

KingPosey
02-01-2018, 03:27 AM
Doug Christie?

One is elite and one was an awesome role player, but ya they both played for the Kings, so thereís that.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 03:36 AM
Some of you have to stop with the "Harden doesn't play defense" nonsense. Harden has looked much better defensively and slimmed down so he can be more effective out there. His defense isn't great but he's not sleeping like he used to. What matters is that his team wins games with him on the court. My only roadblock for Harden is his playoffs failure that none of us can forget when ranking him. He's a regular season God but until he gets rid of those playoffs failures, he'll never be recognized as a GOAT-type player.

I also think Wade is really underrated here for obvious reasons in longevity. When Wade was the same age as Harden, he was a more efficient scorer, more points/rebounds/assists, higher advanced stats, and won a finals MVP/ring. Harden still has a long way to go if he wants to hit that #3 spot.

KingPosey
02-01-2018, 03:50 AM
Some of you have to stop with the "Harden doesn't play defense" nonsense. Harden has looked much better defensively and slimmed down so he can be more effective out there. His defense isn't great but he's not sleeping like he used to. What matters is that his team wins games with him on the court. My only roadblock for Harden is his playoffs failure that none of us can forget when ranking him. He's a regular season God but until he gets rid of those playoffs failures, he'll never be recognized as a GOAT-type player.

I also think Wade is really underrated here for obvious reasons in longevity. When Wade was the same age as Harden, he was a more efficient scorer, more points/rebounds/assists, higher advanced stats, and won a finals MVP/ring. Harden still has a long way to go if he wants to hit that #3 spot.
So heís played bad but not horrible defense for 40 games and people have to stop with the he plays bad defense stuff? Nah. Thatís not how that works.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 04:08 AM
So heís played bad but not horrible defense for 40 games and people have to stop with the he plays bad defense stuff? Nah. Thatís not how that works.

Do you honestly think LeBron plays much better defense than Harden? My point is, if the team is winning and Harden's offense is the reason they are, then you guys take defense way too seriously. The team is improving defensively and don't require Harden to really play lockdown defense. I guarantee you that D'Antoni cares more about how many threes the team takes than whether or not Harden is playing defense. It's funny that even with Harden's defense, he's still looking like the MVP this season. Why is that? Note: It's not because of his defense.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:17 AM
So heís played bad but not horrible defense for 40 games and people have to stop with the he plays bad defense stuff? Nah. Thatís not how that works.

lolz let him rant to be right.. or

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:18 AM
Who plays defense?

KingPosey
02-01-2018, 06:33 AM
Do you honestly think LeBron plays much better defense than Harden? My point is, if the team is winning and Harden's offense is the reason they are, then you guys take defense way too seriously. The team is improving defensively and don't require Harden to really play lockdown defense. I guarantee you that D'Antoni cares more about how many threes the team takes than whether or not Harden is playing defense. It's funny that even with Harden's defense, he's still looking like the MVP this season. Why is that? Note: It's not because of his defense.No I think lebrons defense is awful. Even though his peak defense is supremely overrated as far as being able to lock down all positions, he played elite defense for a long stretch. You just can't compare harden to him defensively in any way man. That's crazy.

Their team is very good, that's why they're winning.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 09:22 AM
Harden has been inconsistent defensively throughout his career. He was actually viewed as a really solid defender in his time at OKC, but when he came to Houston, so much of his effort went to the offensive side, that people started to pick up on his lack of effort on the other end.

Here are the facts:
1. Harden is an atrocious transition defender. If you want to knock him for something, knock him for this. But this is mostly an effort/energy thing, as he exerts so much energy on the other side of the floor. The vast majority of those anti-Harden YouTube videos are him not getting back in transition. But...
2. Harden is an excellent post defender. Ever watch him get switched on a 6'11" PF in the post? His strength and ability to hold his ground makes bigger guys have to take fall away jumpers or get creative. They'll shoot over him, but they can't just back him into the paint for a layup.
3. Harden ball watches too much, but he's got good hands and it leads to a lot of steals. There are times when he loses his man, which leads to an open jumper somewhere on the floor, but there are also times when he deflects a pass or simply snatches the ball out of the air.
4. He struggles against quicker guards 1 on 1, but the guy really isn't a bad man to man defender. Watch him play man defense late in games. He's good at contesting shots without fouling and above average at blocking shooters on the perimeter. His strength makes it so guys can't just blow through him, but his so-so lateral quickness allows smaller, quicker guys to occasionally get the better of him. But go back and watch his block of Curry from a few weeks back. The guy knows how to defend a guy on the perimeter late in games.

I was talking to someone about this the other day, and I think a good analogy for Harden is a ball hawking SS in football who covers underneath stuff, deflects passes and get picks, and can cover bigger tight ends. But he loses his guy in zone coverage and gets badly beaten when forced to cover faster receivers.

ewing
02-01-2018, 10:07 AM
Same as the PG thread

What are your top 10 SG's of all-time


1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler
6. Harden
7. Gervin
8. Iverson
9. Carter
10. Reggie Miller

Honorable mentions:
Ray Allen
Sam Jones
Walt Frazier
Jones
McGrady

Nice to see Reggie in the top 10 I think he is deserving and historicity underrated


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 10:36 AM
Nice to see Reggie in the top 10 I think he is deserving and historicity underrated


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Meh. I'll agree to disagree. I think he's historically overrated. He wouldn't sniff anywhere close to my top 50 players of all-time.

KnicksorBust
02-01-2018, 12:43 PM
Same as the PG thread

What are your top 10 SG's of all-time


1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler
6. Harden
7. Gervin
8. Iverson
9. Carter
10. Reggie Miller

Honorable mentions:
Ray Allen
Sam Jones
Walt Frazier
Jones
McGrady

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Ray Allen
6. George Gervin
7. James Harden
8. Clyde Drexler
9. Sam Jones
10. Reggie Miller

Chronz
02-01-2018, 04:36 PM
Nice to see Reggie in the top 10 I think he is deserving and historicity underrated


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm beginning to feel that way too. I just remember being young and laughing at my pacers friend that he wasn't even a lock for the all star game, much less an all nba team.

Now that I'm older I have a different appreciation for him but I know it's not for the reasons you value so then, what is it. Why is Reggie underrated baby

rhino17
02-01-2018, 05:06 PM
It makes me genuinely giddy to think of Harden as a top 5 player at his position. That would have seemed so ridiculous a few years ago, but I honestly think he's on pace to be the second greatest Rocket of all-time and that he's got a good chance to pass Wade as the 4th best SG ever.

Who is ahead of Harden besides Dream? Moses Malone?

Chronz
02-01-2018, 05:21 PM
Who is ahead of Harden besides Dream? Moses Malone?
Harden has a long way to go but I admit, a title at least gives you gals an argument even tho I disrespect that more and more with each passing year. Plenty o players lose before the finals, but imagine if teams ranked players that way. Chauncey or rip over Kobe cuz of 1 year?

Does Yao get docked for his lack of relative post season TEAM success despite him being on that same level, even greater at his as apex imo. But if it's durability then yeah, harden just has to pass drexler, tho too many underrated his run there, for sure. Check his ortg

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 05:26 PM
Who is ahead of Harden besides Dream? Moses Malone?


Harden has a long way to go but I admit, a title at least gives you gals an argument even tho I disrespect that more and more with each passing year. Plenty o players lose before the finals, but imagine if teams ranked players that way. Chauncey or rip over Kobe cuz of 1 year?

Does Yao get docked for his lack of relative post season TEAM success despite him being on that same level, even greater at his as apex imo. But if it's durability then yeah, harden just has to pass drexler, tho too many underrated his run there, for sure. Check his ortg

I'd probably give Moses just the slightest of edges because of his MVPs in Houston and the fact that he led the Rockets to a Finals in 1981. But Harden's already got Moses beat in terms of tenure with the squad. And if he wins in MVP this year and the Rockets can push the Warriors a bit in the conference finals, I'd definitely say he's passed Moses at that point.

Chronz
02-01-2018, 05:49 PM
I'd probably give Moses just the slightest of edges because of his MVPs in Houston and the fact that he led the Rockets to a Finals in 1981. But Harden's already got Moses beat in terms of tenure with the squad. And if he wins in MVP this year and the Rockets can push the Warriors a bit in the conference finals, I'd definitely say he's passed Moses at that point.

Given that Mvps are a team thing, and given that Moses won his in spite of his team (then backed that decision with another on the best team+champ) it's indicative of where these players are perceived. Idc for tenure when I'm more of a who was actually the better player kind of guy. Legacy and career are different than actual ability and impact at their best. Moses utterly ***** on harden until he stops disappointing in the post season. It's sad when one of his greatest post season "runs" consisted of slaying an imploding Mavs team and watching his team save his *** from the bench in a series where Dwight was the biggest difference maker. Only to see Dwight get injured and the rockets predictably destroyed. Most true star swings who lose in round 1 put up bigger fights than harden in any round imo.

He's got so much to atone for

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 06:41 PM
Given that Mvps are a team thing, and given that Moses won his in spite of his team (then backed that decision with another on the best team+champ) it's indicative of where these players are perceived. Idc for tenure when I'm more of a who was actually the better player kind of guy. Legacy and career are different than actual ability and impact at their best. Moses utterly ***** on harden until he stops disappointing in the post season. It's sad when one of his greatest post season "runs" consisted of slaying an imploding Mavs team and watching his team save his *** from the bench in a series where Dwight was the biggest difference maker. Only to see Dwight get injured and the rockets predictably destroyed. Most true star swings who lose in round 1 put up bigger fights than harden in any round imo.

He's got so much to atone for

OK, but Moses only played for the Rockets for six seasons, and in those six seasons, he made it past the first round twice. Harden's already accomplished that twice in five years and will likely do it a third time in six years this season. Also, look at their playoff numbers, and they're very similar, if not slightly better in Harden's favor.

So regardless of Harden's reputation, if we look at what they've done in Houston in terms of postseason resume, really the only thing Moses has over James is the one Finals appearance in 81. And it's worth noting that he wasn't exactly spectacular in that series. The dude averaged 22.3 points in that series on 19.8 FGA and shot 40.3 percent from the floor.

Moses didn't really earn his postseason respect until he left Houston for Philly, and that 83 season also happened to be his peak year in the league. If you compare his best seasons in Houston to Harden's best, Jimmy's peak crushes his and it's not close.

So, in review, Moses' postseason resume isn't that much better, his regular season numbers are significantly worse and Harden's likely going to crush him in terms of longevity and tenure with the team. So why should Moses be ranked higher?

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 06:49 PM
Harden is easily the 2nd best Rocket IMO. Clyde has longevity but not enough peak performances that Harden has generated. Moses sixth seasons < Harden. Yao wasn't this good. T-Mac for injury reasons.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 06:57 PM
Harden is easily the 2nd best Rocket IMO. Clyde has longevity but not enough peak performances that Harden has generated. Moses sixth seasons < Harden. Yao wasn't this good. T-Mac for injury reasons.

There's a decent case to be made for Moses at least, but nobody else in the entire franchise's history even has a legitimate argument. Drexler was past his prime by the time he got to Houston and really only played there for three and a half seasons (which were fairly injury-plagued). Yao, unfortunately, could never stay healthy, and his peak doesn't come close to Harden's. And we only really got three seasons of prime T-Mac, whose peak doesn't touch James and whose tenure in Houston was also plagued by injuries.

Honestly, of every other Rocket side from Moses and James, the guy who probably makes the best case for No. 2 is Calvin Murphy because of his tenure with the team. He's first in terms of career franchise assists and second in most other career numbers in the franchise's history. I'd probably rank him fourth behind Dream, Harden and Moses.

Shammyguy3
02-01-2018, 07:18 PM
I'm gonna give this list a couple qualifiers again

Best Careers
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Sam Jones
6. Clyde Drexler
7. Ray Allen
8. Manu Ginobili
9. James Harden
10. George Gervin / Tracy McGrady


Best Player (Entirety of Career)
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Jerry West
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Ray Allen
7. Sam Jones
8. Manu Ginobili
9. James Harden
10. George Gervin




Best Player (Strictly Prime/Peak Production)
1. Michael Jordan
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Jerry West
5. James Harden
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Clyde Drexler
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
10. Sam Jones

Chronz
02-01-2018, 07:22 PM
OK, but Moses only played for the Rockets for six seasons, and in those six seasons, he made it past the first round twice. Harden's already accomplished that twice in five years and will likely do it a third time in six years this season. Also, look at their playoff numbers, and they're very similar, if not slightly better in Harden's favor.
Again, I'm more of a who was actually better kind of guy. Seen the numbers disagree with you.




So regardless of Harden's reputation, if we look at what they've done in Houston in terms of postseason resume, really the only thing Moses has over James is the one Finals appearance in 81. And it's worth noting that he wasn't exactly spectacular in that series. The dude averaged 22.3 points in that series on 19.8 FGA and shot 40.3 percent from the floor. that's pretty amazing given the comp, he also averaged an absurd number of offensive rebounds so any talk of his efficiency has to go beyond fg%, even if i agreed this is akin to pointing at brons struggles vs sas despite his team having no business in the finals to begin with. For reference, hakeem (with much more support) wasn't all that different against the very same team. As for harden, ****, we've seen him lose in r1 with sub allstar production



Moses didn't really earn his postseason respect until he left Houston for Philly, and that 83 season also happened to be his peak year in the league. If you compare his best seasons in Houston to Harden's best, Jimmy's peak crushes his and it's not close. who's Jimmy? I don't know what narrative you're trying to spin but it just sounds like so and so made his name the year he finally won a chip. Even if I agreed, what's that got to do with a guy like harden who's yet to earn any sort of post season respect. At this point, I think we're all just happy he's no longer among the first psd thought of when considering playoff chokers.



So, in review, Moses' postseason resume isn't that much better, his regular season numbers are significantly worse and Harden's likely going to crush him in terms of longevity and tenure with the team. So why should Moses be ranked higher?
Because he was the better player, especially come playoffs

Chronz
02-01-2018, 07:26 PM
Harden is easily the 2nd best Rocket IMO. Clyde has longevity but not enough peak performances that Harden has generated. Moses sixth seasons < Harden. Yao wasn't this good. T-Mac for injury reasons.
Yao was easily better at his best but like tmac, he only had 1 year, harden better be better than old man Mac but it's been debatable based on their performances. Harden has been that inconsistent in the playoffs.
Definitely more durable tho

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 07:26 PM
Lolz 6th? Heís 10th ;)

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 07:28 PM
Yao was easily better at his best but like tmac, he only had 1 year, harden better be better than old man Mac but it's been debatable based on their performances. Harden has been that inconsistent in the playoffs.
Definitely more durable tho

Yao wasn't healthy enough and didn't put the same amount of performances by most metrics both advanced and regular. The playoffs is a concern but again, his numbers still put him above Yao and T-Mac.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 08:26 PM
Again, I'm more of a who was actually better kind of guy. Seen the numbers disagree with you.
I'm not old enough to have watched the guy, so I only have numbers and resume to go off of. Based on that information, Harden is better. :shrug:


that's pretty amazing given the comp, he also averaged an absurd number of offensive rebounds so any talk of his efficiency has to go beyond fg%, even if i agreed this is akin to pointing at brons struggles vs sas despite his team having no business in the finals to begin with. For reference, hakeem (with much more support) wasn't all that different against the very same team. As for harden, ****, we've seen him lose in r1 with sub allstar production
Hakeem's numbers (25/12/3/2/1 on 48% shooting) are actually much better. And that was only his second season in the league. And Moses also got beat in the first round with mediocre numbers. So it's a moot point. Also, you're talking about an insanely small sample size in the playoffs. Harden's numbers are similar, and Moses didn't exactly accomplish substantially more in the playoffs in this time in Houston that Harden did.

If Moses had won some titles in Houston, this would be a different conversation. He didn't.


who's Jimmy?
Clearly talking about Harden.


I don't know what narrative you're trying to spin but it just sounds like so and so made his name the year he finally won a chip. Even if I agreed, what's that got to do with a guy like harden who's yet to earn any sort of post season respect. At this point, I think we're all just happy he's no longer among the first psd thought of when considering playoff chokers.
I'm not trying to spin a narrative at all. You're making Moses sound like he's some postseason stud in his time in Houston, and he wasn't. He took a team to an NBA Finals in a time where the West totally sucked (that Rockets team won 40 games that year) and that's about all you're resting his postseason resume on. Harden was superior in the regular season, and Moses' playoff resume isn't so impressive that it makes up for the difference.


Because he was the better player, especially come playoffs
Agree to disagree.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 08:27 PM
Yao was easily better at his best but like tmac, he only had 1 year, harden better be better than old man Mac but it's been debatable based on their performances. Harden has been that inconsistent in the playoffs.
Definitely more durable tho

Now you're just being intentionally dense. Yao? Really?

I'm a Rockets fan who's watched thousands of Rockets games since I was in like the first grade. You can believe me or not, but I can assure you that peak Yao doesn't deserve to be spoken in the same breath as peak Harden. He was a damn good basketball player and is one hell of a good dude, but in his entire career, he may never have been a top 10 player in the league at any given time.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 08:34 PM
Also, for the people voting T-Mac higher than Harden, I just don't see it. Granted, I didn't watch much of T-Mac in Orlando (to be fair, why would anyone have watched Magic games back then unless they were Magic fans?). But I watched both guys in Houston, and Harden is just a much smarter, much more impactful player than Tracy ever was as a Rocket.

I loved Tracy, but that dude never met a shot he didn't like. He was a volume scorer with really good court vision and athleticism, and he took WAY too many jump shots in his career. More than 57 percent of his field goal attempts in his career were long twos or threes, but he shot only 41.5 percent on long 2s and 34.1 percent on 3s in his career. The guy was basically a poor man's Kobe without the midrange shot or defensive effort.

WaDe03
02-02-2018, 10:17 AM
West is a PG and regardless not better than Wade.

Shammyguy3
02-02-2018, 11:07 AM
West is a PG and regardless not better than Wade.

For the guy's career he averaged 27/7/6 with a 55.0ts% playing without a 3 point line even though he was the best shooter of his time. It's definitely debatable

WaDe03
02-02-2018, 11:19 AM
For the guy's career he averaged 27/7/6 with a 55.0ts% playing without a 3 point line even though he was the best shooter of his time. It's definitely debatable

If you took Wade and dropped him in that exact era we're talking about him like we do Jordan and LeBron.

mightybosstone
02-02-2018, 11:41 AM
West is a PG and regardless not better than Wade.

Why is he a PG? Because you claim that he is?

To me, PG and SG are really pointless designations in a lot of cases. But I think you've got to base it on who the larger guard was and who took on the bigger opposing team's guard on a nightly basis. I also think of SG typically more of a guy who looked to score first and distribute second. In both cases, that guy for the Lakers in that era was Jerry West.

WaDe03
02-02-2018, 11:46 AM
Why is he a PG? Because you claim that he is?

To me, PG and SG are really pointless designations in a lot of cases. But I think you've got to base it on who the larger guard was and who took on the bigger opposing team's guard on a nightly basis. I also think of SG typically more of a guy who looked to score first and distribute second. In both cases, that guy for the Lakers in that era was Jerry West.

He's listed as a PG all but 2 years. Do you say Curry and Westbrook are SGs as well since they're score first?

Regardless I just don't see West as a better player whether he was a SG or not.

mightybosstone
02-02-2018, 12:25 PM
He's listed as a PG all but 2 years. Do you say Curry and Westbrook are SGs as well since they're score first?
The definition of PG and SG has really changed, though, over the last 10-15 years. In that timeframe, we've seen smaller, more athletic guys handle the ball a lot more and the size of guards and wings in the NBA get taller and longer. SGs and SFs who handle a team's distribution duties are no longer an anomaly, and 6'1" and 6'2" guys who score 25+ a night and look to score first are far more common. Guys like Rose and Westbrook would have certainly been SGs in the 80s or 90s. And now you have a guy like Harden listed as a PG even though he clearly has the frame, defensive assignments and scoring responsibilities of a SG.

For that era of basketball, though, West was more of a 2 than a 1. And you're basing your analysis solely on what his designation is on BR. But look at any list of all-time great SGs, and I guarantee you that Jerry West's name is going to be on it.


Regardless I just don't see West as a better player whether he was a SG or not.
Peak play? I'll take Wade all day. But West was better for longer. The dude averaged basically 26/5/5 for 11 straight seasons. And he posted a WS/48 over .200 11 out of 12 seasons and a PER of 22+ for 12 of 13 seasons. Wade only accomplished those feats maybe 5-6 seasons in his career. Wade's prime only lasted probably only lasted like 6-8 seasons compared to 11-12 seasons of West's prime.

West also went All-NBA 12 times with 10 1st teams compared to eight for Wade, who only cracked the 1st team twice. Wade's postseason resume is a little stronger, but if you look at their actual postseason numbers, I'd probably give the edge to West.

One other thing worth noting is that West was efficient in an era where nobody was efficient, especially guards. And his career TS% was only 0.8 percentage points behind Wade despite no 3-point line in his era. Wade isn't the shooter that West was, and I've got to think that if West had a 3-point line, he would have been at least a competent 3-point shooter, which would have given his numbers even more of a boost.

I just don't think there's a great case to be made for Wade over West aside from a slightly better peak and a postseason resume that's stronger, but not by a huge margin.

FlashBolt
02-02-2018, 01:26 PM
He's listed as a PG all but 2 years. Do you say Curry and Westbrook are SGs as well since they're score first?

Regardless I just don't see West as a better player whether he was a SG or not.

They didn't even have an official PG/SG role during West's time.. so what BBRall reference listed him as isn't exactly evidence. Do we really need evidence to realize that Harden is actually more of a SG than PG but could play both? I mean, I haven't really seen Harden's game change at all. West was a better scorer than passer. A lot of West's position had to do with Goodrich coming over and it simply made more sense to have West facilitate more because Goodrich wasn't as good in handling the ball.

FlashBolt
02-02-2018, 01:30 PM
He's listed as a PG all but 2 years. Do you say Curry and Westbrook are SGs as well since they're score first?

Regardless I just don't see West as a better player whether he was a SG or not.

1) Because both are rather small SG's if they did play it. They aren't big enough to guard those guys.

2) Both demand the ball to be useful. In today's smallball, it makes more sense for one player to be that threat so you can spread the floor with shooters. Imagine if Curry had to share the bulk of the ball with another PG. Do you think his career ends up being the same? If Monta was still in the Warriors, Curry wouldn't have blossomed the way he has.

3) Even Wade is a small shooting guard. Take a look at some of the best. Wade is probably 6'3. Jordan, Kobe, McGrady, Drexler, Ray Allen, Reggie, Vince, Manu, and Gervin...

What we're basically seeing is small ball combined with a strong mix of three point shooting that has allowed for these PG's to now be designated to create and also score the ball. Is it a coincidence that PG's today are all looked at as scorers as well?

Chronz
02-02-2018, 10:09 PM
Yao wasn't healthy enough and didn't put the same amount of performances by most metrics both advanced and regular. The playoffs is a concern but again, his numbers still put him above Yao and T-Mac.
Disagree 100 that's for sure. Health is removed from the equation in my opinion, it's why guys like Bill Walton have more of a shot in this type of discussion. Simply put, harden was healthier, he's just never been better than the 2

FlashBolt
02-02-2018, 10:39 PM
Disagree 100 that's for sure. Health is removed from the equation in my opinion, it's why guys like Bill Walton have more of a shot in this type of discussion. Simply put, harden was healthier, he's just never been better than the 2

I like Yao more than Harden but I don't see a season in which he was better. And if we're going by the greatest X of a team, longevity (health) should matter. Only reason Kobe beats out Magic for me.

flea
02-04-2018, 06:05 PM
As a Blazer fan this is painful to admit, but it's getting to the point where I have to acknowledge Harden > Drexler for the 5th spot all-time.

Oh please, Harden isn't anywhere close to Drexler yet. He still has a chance but why do people pretend Harden's playoff resume is anything other than what it is: pathetic. Drexler won the WC 3 times, twice as "the guy," and has a ring as a very good #2.

Harden's most notable playoff moment was when he got benched for Corey Brewer and the Rockets went the WCF on the backs of a Beverly/Brewer/Ariza/Smith/Howard transition+defensive showing. Even the one thing you'd expect Harden to be better at Drexler at (besides flopping) he is worse at in playmaking - high turnover playoff performer with less assists and that is including Drexler's decline.

ewing
02-05-2018, 10:33 AM
I'm beginning to feel that way too. I just remember being young and laughing at my pacers friend that he wasn't even a lock for the all star game, much less an all nba team.

Now that I'm older I have a different appreciation for him but I know it's not for the reasons you value so then, what is it. Why is Reggie underrated baby

Scoring was no easy task at with pace and style the Pacers played. Despite the narrative Reggie was an elite scorer from everywhere on the floor and was his best when it mattered most. Dude was also very long 2 that was an underrated one on one defender. Yeah he looked nerdy, was a huge whiner, and came off kind of female but Reggie was a bad ***


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KnicksorBust
02-05-2018, 12:50 PM
Scoring was no easy task at with pace and style the Pacers played. Despite the narrative Reggie was an elite scorer from everywhere on the floor and was his best when it mattered most. Dude was also very long 2 that was an underrated one on one defender. Yeah he looked nerdy, was a huge whiner, and came off kind of female but Reggie was a bad ***


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To this day I can't stand him. Hearing him talk. Looking at him. David Ortiz I have found a way to get over it. Miller will clearly last till the end of time.

valade16
02-05-2018, 03:28 PM
Oh please, Harden isn't anywhere close to Drexler yet. He still has a chance but why do people pretend Harden's playoff resume is anything other than what it is: pathetic. Drexler won the WC 3 times, twice as "the guy," and has a ring as a very good #2.

Harden's most notable playoff moment was when he got benched for Corey Brewer and the Rockets went the WCF on the backs of a Beverly/Brewer/Ariza/Smith/Howard transition+defensive showing. Even the one thing you'd expect Harden to be better at Drexler at (besides flopping) he is worse at in playmaking - high turnover playoff performer with less assists and that is including Drexler's decline.

Well if Harden and the Rockets go to the WCF this year will it be because Harden became a better playoff performer or will it simply be because the team around him got better?

I do agree that Drexler has a better playoff resume however it's important to consider that Drexler was considered somewhat of a playoff failure prior to his title with Houston as his favored Blazers lost to the Lakers in 1991 and then had a very underwhelming Finals performance vs MJ the next year.

Jamiecballer
02-05-2018, 11:06 PM
Swap Harden with Drexler, put Mcgrady at 10, push Vince down to 9 and im good with the rest. Iverson not just out but well below the rest for me.

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Wrigheyes4MVP
02-06-2018, 04:10 PM
T-Mac is a SF IMO

mightybosstone
02-06-2018, 06:09 PM
T-Mac is a SF IMO

How do you figure? In Orlando, he played most of his minutes on the same floor as Mike Miller. And in Houston, he played next to Shane Battier. Dude played way more SG on both teams than he played SF.

FlashBolt
02-06-2018, 06:59 PM
How do you figure? In Orlando, he played most of his minutes on the same floor as Mike Miller. And in Houston, he played next to Shane Battier. Dude played way more SG on both teams than he played SF.

I don't think positions have mattered as much as we'd like to make it. Does T-Mac play any differently than KD?

mightybosstone
02-06-2018, 07:02 PM
I don't think positions have mattered as much as we'd like to make it. Does T-Mac play any differently than KD?

OK, so it doesn't really matter on the floor, but if that's the case, why in the hell are we having a conversation about the top 10 greatest SGs of all-time in the first place? If we are honestly going to have those conversations, then I think we have to determine first which guys belong in what positions. And if you have to pick which position McGrady belongs to, clearly it makes more sense for him at the 2 than the 3.

Edit: And, yes, there are a ton of things that KD does that McGrady doesn't do. The guy posts up more regularly, defends bigger players, blocks shots, rebounds better, etc. Essentially all the things that SFs are supposed to do better than SGs, Durant does better than McGrady did.

FlashBolt
02-06-2018, 07:15 PM
OK, so it doesn't really matter on the floor, but if that's the case, why in the hell are we having a conversation about the top 10 greatest SGs of all-time in the first place? If we are honestly going to have those conversations, then I think we have to determine first which guys belong in what positions. And if you have to pick which position McGrady belongs to, clearly it makes more sense for him at the 2 than the 3.

Edit: And, yes, there are a ton of things that KD does that McGrady doesn't do. The guy posts up more regularly, defends bigger players, blocks shots, rebounds better, etc. Essentially all the things that SFs are supposed to do better than SGs, Durant does better than McGrady did.

I'm talking about the defined roles. Some guys have played SG/SF while some have played SG/PG. it really isn't as big of a deal. It's the same with jerry West. Does it really matter to argue that one player played more SG than SF when their roles have basically been the same?

FlashBolt
02-06-2018, 07:18 PM
OK, so it doesn't really matter on the floor, but if that's the case, why in the hell are we having a conversation about the top 10 greatest SGs of all-time in the first place? If we are honestly going to have those conversations, then I think we have to determine first which guys belong in what positions. And if you have to pick which position McGrady belongs to, clearly it makes more sense for him at the 2 than the 3.

Edit: And, yes, there are a ton of things that KD does that McGrady doesn't do. The guy posts up more regularly, defends bigger players, blocks shots, rebounds better, etc. Essentially all the things that SFs are supposed to do better than SGs, Durant does better than McGrady did.

Only because KD is on a different team. OKC, he was the exact same player as McGrady. Posted up a bit more but you could make a case Kobe posted up more than KD did as well. There really wasn't anything different from McGrady and KD. In fact, his draft comparison was Tracy McGrady.

flea
02-07-2018, 09:33 PM
Well if Harden and the Rockets go to the WCF this year will it be because Harden became a better playoff performer or will it simply be because the team around him got better?

I do agree that Drexler has a better playoff resume however it's important to consider that Drexler was considered somewhat of a playoff failure prior to his title with Houston as his favored Blazers lost to the Lakers in 1991 and then had a very underwhelming Finals performance vs MJ the next year.

Oh good Lord not the "Lebron defense." Harden has had plenty of help - he just been terrible. His brightest moment was probably as a sixth man with the Thunder, and even then he folded like a chair in the Finals. It would be one thing if he'd actually performed well and lost. He has just been bad to very bad - turnover prone (didn't he have like 13 turnovers in one game, maybe all time playoff record?), low shooting percentages, bad decisions, no defense, zero floor game.

Drexler on the other hand only got that reputation because of how the MJ/Drexler game was billed. Drexler was never MJ and his Blazers team wasn't as good as the Bulls but it made for good marketing. Drexler was, though, a very strong superstar opposite MJ. He was just as athletic and heady as MJ, just not near as skilled or tenacious. Winning your conference twice in 3 years is not underwhelming - especially since the West wasn't what it was in the 80s anymore when the Blazers did it.

rhino17
02-07-2018, 09:56 PM
OK, so it doesn't really matter on the floor, but if that's the case, why in the hell are we having a conversation about the top 10 greatest SGs of all-time in the first place? If we are honestly going to have those conversations, then I think we have to determine first which guys belong in what positions. And if you have to pick which position McGrady belongs to, clearly it makes more sense for him at the 2 than the 3.

Edit: And, yes, there are a ton of things that KD does that McGrady doesn't do. The guy posts up more regularly, defends bigger players, blocks shots, rebounds better, etc. Essentially all the things that SFs are supposed to do better than SGs, Durant does better than McGrady did.

McGrady was also the primary ball handler, at least during his time in Houston. KD is not that. And like you said KD plays in the paint a bit. If anything, tmac was more of a combo guard considering the duties he had on the court.

YAALREADYKNO
02-07-2018, 11:44 PM
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler
Harden
Iverson
Allen
Carter
Miller

Sanjay
06-23-2018, 12:49 AM
Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Drexler
Harden
Iverson
Allen
Carter
Miller

Drexler and Harden over Iverson?

FlashBolt
06-23-2018, 01:52 AM
Drexler and Harden over Iverson?

I don't agree with Clyde but I think Harden is the fifth best SG right now as it is.

YAALREADYKNO
06-23-2018, 09:19 AM
Drexler and Harden over Iverson?

You right updated list

Jordan
Kobe
Wade
West
Iverson
Drexler
Harden
Allen
Carter
Miller

mrblisterdundee
06-23-2018, 12:18 PM
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West: It's always difficult to judge West, considering how much more awesome he would have been with a three-point line.
4. Wade
5. Drexler
6. Harden: Harden has played 63 percent of the games Drexler did, and yet he seems to clearly be the superior player. But he's not superior enough to override the rest of Drexler's career, including a championship. I'm confident Harden will pass Drexler up in the next few years, with or without a championship, but not now.
7. Gervin
8. Miller
9. Allen
10. Iverson
It was difficult leaving McGrady off, considering he had the highest peak performance between Jordan and LeBron. Injuries suck.
I knocked Carter down a few spots because of everything he left on the table with his effort. He could have done a lot more in his prime. Instead he gave up on Toronto.

Chronz
06-23-2018, 11:00 PM
Drexler and Harden over Iverson?

Harden no.

numba1CHANGsta
06-23-2018, 11:13 PM
Is the SG position the weakest position in the NBA in terms of hall of fame players?

AntiG
06-24-2018, 01:39 AM
Jordan

toss up between Kobe, Drexler, Wade

West

numba1CHANGsta
06-25-2018, 03:22 PM
Jordan

toss up between Kobe, Drexler, Wade

West

lmao @ toss up

Kobe is the undeniable 2nd best SG of all time and it aint even close!

Oakmont_4
06-25-2018, 03:40 PM
SG is a tough position.

I think the top 4 are pretty concrete. MJ, Kobe, West, Wade.

After that there's a pretty significant drop and you have to find a balance between numbers, championships, longevity, defense and big time shots. Ray Allen and Reggie Miller have to factor into the top 10.

After that I have quite a few in consideration. Drexler, Iverson, Mitch Richmond (not seeing his name here much and should be), George Gervin, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Pete Maravich.

Final list...
1. MJ - The GOAT
2. Kobe - Top 10 NBA player all time
3. West - NBA Icon
4. Wade - One of the best to ever do it from day 1
5. Miller - 3pt assassin who was clutch and backed down from nobody
6. Allen - Could lead a team by himself but was killer when a side kick. Longevity is the mark
7. Iverson - Impressive career, won a lot of games too with little help. Oh and he was really undersized.
8. Drexler - Longevity, numbers, consistency, you name it, he had it
9. McGrady - If not for injuries, he's likely top 5
10. Richmond - Consistently dominant, but wasted away in SAC