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View Full Version : Kevin Love out 6-8 Weeks with a Broken Left Hand



Cal827
01-30-2018, 10:23 PM
This was an update that I just got from the score, and this tweet just came out from sportscenter


Breaking: Kevin Love has a broken left hand and will be out 6-8 weeks, via @mcten.

If this is true, the Cavs might be in serious trouble as their stars won't be able to get into sync during the stretch run for the playoffs. Also considering that the Bucks get Parker back, the Pistons just got Griffin, and Miami is on their trail (and looking to add talent), the Cavs will now likely have to make a trade (quite possibly trading away that brooklyn pick) in order to keep pace. I know Lebron's Lebron, but 3 straight series on the road could be quite problematic for him (and that would be before the finals)


Side note, I think being elected to the All Star game was a curse... Now Wall, Cousins and Love are missing the game after being named to them.

corky831
01-30-2018, 10:25 PM
Wow, big hit for the Cavs....

Cal827
01-30-2018, 10:28 PM
Sorry for the delay Ladies and Gents, here's an article from ESPN:



DETROIT -- Cleveland Cavaliers forward Kevin Love has been ruled out 6-8 weeks after suffering a fractured hand, sources told ESPN.

The injury occurred in the Cavs' game against the Detroit Pistons in the first quarter on Tuesday.

The team said Love received X-rays at the arena which revealed a non-displaced fracture in his left hand fifth metacarpal, and would update his status after additional examination and consultation tomorrow in Cleveland.

Love grabbed his hand after making contact with Detroit's Andre Drummond under the basket and bent over in pain, holding his hand.

He subbed out with 7:19 remaining in the first quarter and went to the locker room, accompanied by head athletic trainer Steve Spiro.

Love underwent surgery on the same hand in Oct. 2009, which required three screws to be inserted into his hand.

Tuesday's hand injury will put Love's availability for the All-Star game next month in jeopardy. Last season, Love underwent minor knee surgery on Feb. 14, causing him to miss the All-Star game five days later.

Via ESPN

jaydubb
01-30-2018, 10:29 PM
They are dropping like flies!

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GREATNESS ONE
01-30-2018, 10:31 PM
Lolz can’t blame Love anymore! That’s another huge blow, I don’t see how Lebron stays.

J4KOP99
01-30-2018, 10:50 PM
Wow. The dominos continue to fall. This deadline will be one for the ages.

Do we think Love has played his last game for Cleveland?

WaDe03
01-30-2018, 10:51 PM
Cavs need to get in on the Niko sweepstakes now! Idk what the hell their plan is though, I'm not sure they do either.

tredigs
01-30-2018, 10:54 PM
When it rains it pours. Puts him on pace to come back with a couple weeks to spare entering the playoffs though (if he's a Cav still).

BKLYNpigeon
01-30-2018, 10:57 PM
He will be back for the playoffs. Who cares about seeding anyway.

tredigs
01-30-2018, 11:08 PM
Fwiw K Love is probably secretly thrilled about this. Get him out of that cancerous situation for a bit.

WaDe03
01-30-2018, 11:11 PM
Fwiw K Love is probably secretly thrilled about this. Get him out of that cancerous situation for a bit.

No he's not lol

GREATNESS ONE
01-30-2018, 11:25 PM
No he's not lol

I think he’s on to something, the locker room chemistry is bad right now. Especially with the blame Love scenario, he gets a break from the bs and hopefully a different team when he comes back. One thing is for sure Lebron is leaving.

Cal827
01-30-2018, 11:28 PM
I still don't get how Kevin Love received the Flack from the team... after all of the issues, the thing that pisses everyone off the most is that Love had to leave a bit early in a blow-out due to a personal matter :laugh2: He's averaging 20-10 and next to Lebron, is probably the most consistent Cav.

AllBall
01-30-2018, 11:39 PM
They are dropping like flies!

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Heat to the ECF! lol

Scoots
01-30-2018, 11:51 PM
Being drafted by LeBron is a curse

LA_Raiders
01-30-2018, 11:56 PM
This is probably the best that happens to Love consider the current blaming situation. They will struggle to get home court for the POffs.

More-Than-Most
01-31-2018, 01:30 AM
IT probably thinks he is faking.

Saddletramp
01-31-2018, 02:00 AM
Being drafted by LeBron is a curse


Been there/done that (from the all star thread the other day):



Surprised no one has blamed Lebron on Cousins' injury yet. "Is Lebron's team cursed?!?!?!?!"

mrblisterdundee
01-31-2018, 02:31 AM
Trade Love, Thompson, Smith, Osman, Zizic, Cleveland's first-rounder and the Brooklyn pick to Orlando for Fournier, Vucevic, Gordon, Simmons and Augustin.
Cleveland dumps nearly $9 million in salary and all but one of its bad contracts. It gets younger, bigger, faster and better-shooting. The roster deep enough to rest LeBron, contend around him and not be totally hopeless if he leaves:
• PG: Thomas, Augustin, Rose, Calderon
• SG: Fournier, Wade, Shumpert
• SF: LeBron, Simmons, Korver
• PF: Gordon, Crowder, Green
• C: Vucevic, Frye
Orlando eats a big Cleveland Brown worth of bad contracts for a couple young assets, a high and low first-rounder and some fresh armor on their tank. If Love comes back strong, trade him for assets. If not, Orlando will have about $70 million coming off the books all at once in three years, just as the young guys like Isaac might need to get paid.

ManningToTyree
01-31-2018, 03:58 AM
Rip Lebrons Cavs

nastynice
01-31-2018, 07:23 AM
This is probably good for the cavs, if the team stays as is. This will give IT some time and space to get in his comfort zone. Then love back before playoffs to get some reps in. People forget how good IT was and keep fixated on his defense. He's not back in form yet, he'll get there.

LeBron is gonna be the front runner in the east until someone actually beats him. Boston and Toronto look good, but brown and Tatum kinda leveled off, maybe dipped, I still think a year away.

Cleveland has issues, no doubt, but I think it's a little overblown. They gotta start digging deeper on defense tho

Scoots
01-31-2018, 10:07 AM
Been there/done that (from the all star thread the other day):

Hehe ... I was joking as I hope you were too.

Sly Guy
01-31-2018, 10:33 AM
I still don't get how Kevin Love received the Flack from the team... after all of the issues, the thing that pisses everyone off the most is that Love had to leave a bit early in a blow-out due to a personal matter :laugh2: He's averaging 20-10 and next to Lebron, is probably the most consistent Cav

lol, this is why I didn't get the whole 'blame kevin' thing either. Hasn't this been his best statistical season in like, forever? Yeah, I can totally see him thankful for a little air. Cavs are a mess right now, but for them, at least it's still january-ish.

smith&wesson
01-31-2018, 11:52 AM
Traffic. This year everyone’s getting injured. Watered down season

Leftcoast_yg
01-31-2018, 01:17 PM
Being drafted by LeBron is a curse

Lol if your not a shooter your career is on pause with the entitled one. I like how Cleveland fans think they can dump Love to save face and please Bron Bron.

Leftcoast_yg
01-31-2018, 01:20 PM
Trade Love, Thompson, Smith, Osman, Zizic, Cleveland's first-rounder and the Brooklyn pick to Orlando for Fournier, Vucevic, Gordon, Simmons and Augustin.
Cleveland dumps nearly $9 million in salary and all but one of its bad contracts. It gets younger, bigger, faster and better-shooting. The roster deep enough to rest LeBron, contend around him and not be totally hopeless if he leaves:
• PG: Thomas, Augustin, Rose, Calderon
• SG: Fournier, Wade, Shumpert
• SF: LeBron, Simmons, Korver
• PF: Gordon, Crowder, Green
• C: Vucevic, Frye
Orlando eats a big Cleveland Brown worth of bad contracts for a couple young assets, a high and low first-rounder and some fresh armor on their tank. If Love comes back strong, trade him for assets. If not, Orlando will have about $70 million coming off the books all at once in three years, just as the young guys like Isaac might need to get paid.

:laugh: that team is a 2nd round exit lol

mightybosstone
01-31-2018, 01:25 PM
If you're the Cavs front office, at some point in the next week, you have to have a serious sit down come to Jesus meeting with Lebron. They need to ask the guy what his plans are for the future. Because with this injury, I can't imagine the Cavs are going to get much better the rest of the season and any major trades that occur could have a significant long-term impact of the franchise.

And if he is going, now might be the time to make the deal to maximize the Cavs value for him. It seems crazy to think that anybody would deal a player of Lebron's value at a trade deadline, but this team is as far from contending as any Lebron team since his first stint in Cleveland. And if this team isn't going to win a title and Lebron's on his way out, a clean break now would be a hell of a lot less painful for everyone involved than a long drawn out decision in the offseason like last time.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 01:37 PM
The east is now the Raptors. Sorry for Love but not so secretly thrilled.

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bootsy
01-31-2018, 01:45 PM
The east is now the Raptors.

Lol no.

WaDe03
01-31-2018, 01:46 PM
If you're the Cavs front office, at some point in the next week, you have to have a serious sit down come to Jesus meeting with Lebron. They need to ask the guy what his plans are for the future. Because with this injury, I can't imagine the Cavs are going to get much better the rest of the season and any major trades that occur could have a significant long-term impact of the franchise.

And if he is going, now might be the time to make the deal to maximize the Cavs value for him. It seems crazy to think that anybody would deal a player of Lebron's value at a trade deadline, but this team is as far from contending as any Lebron team since his first stint in Cleveland. And if this team isn't going to win a title and Lebron's on his way out, a clean break now would be a hell of a lot less painful for everyone involved than a long drawn out decision in the offseason like last time.

He has a NTC

mightybosstone
01-31-2018, 01:49 PM
He has a NTC

So? That doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has to have some say in where he's dealt.

mrblisterdundee
01-31-2018, 01:50 PM
:laugh: that team is a 2nd round exit lol

I'm going to assume you have no clue what you're talking about, unless you can offer anything more than a rolling head emoji and a half-*** comeback.
The Cavaliers would basically be trading Love for three players, all of whom are averaging nearly as many points as him, and each of whom fit great as complimentary pieces to LeBron. They're all younger and better defensively. Vucevic replaces Love's rebounding by himself, while Fournier nearly replaces his shooting — not to mention every one of those guys has legitimate three-point range. That's not even counting all the upside with Gordon, who provides insurance if LeBron leaves. That second unit would be one of the best in the NBA.
If anything, Orlando's getting hoodwinked in that deal. We don't even know if the Brooklyn pick will be high enough land a blue-chipper. Cleveland's pick surely won't be very high, considering the team would be better after that trade then they were now.

Vee-Rex
01-31-2018, 01:56 PM
If you're the Cavs front office, at some point in the next week, you have to have a serious sit down come to Jesus meeting with Lebron. They need to ask the guy what his plans are for the future. Because with this injury, I can't imagine the Cavs are going to get much better the rest of the season and any major trades that occur could have a significant long-term impact of the franchise.

And if he is going, now might be the time to make the deal to maximize the Cavs value for him. It seems crazy to think that anybody would deal a player of Lebron's value at a trade deadline, but this team is as far from contending as any Lebron team since his first stint in Cleveland. And if this team isn't going to win a title and Lebron's on his way out, a clean break now would be a hell of a lot less painful for everyone involved than a long drawn out decision in the offseason like last time.

Agreed on the sitdown part.

The chance at a title is probably less than zero right now. The team from top to bottom is a mess. Time to clinch our butt cheeks and hold onto the Brooklyn pick and any future assets. The only way this changes is if LeBron commits, which it doesn't look like he will.

I still have confidence that we can make it out of the East (Love got injured last year around this time and torched the East in the playoffs) if we're fully healthy, but this Cavs team is definitely vulnerable. Regardless, a West team is gonna throttle whoever appears out of the East so it really doesn't matter at this point.

We do need to sit down with LeBron. If he commits, then we trade everything we can to improve. If he says he's leaving, then we blow it up. If he says he hasn't decided or won't give an answer, then we leave everything the same and keep the Brooklyn pick. We've been burned once by his indecisive nature and tendency to keep everything close to his chest (and so has Pat Riley) and I'm glad Gilbert refuses to make big moves and allow us to get burned again.

WaDe03
01-31-2018, 02:13 PM
So? That doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has to have some say in where he's dealt.

Well he already said he's not going to waive it, I doubt that's changed.

WaDe03
01-31-2018, 02:15 PM
Agreed on the sitdown part.

The chance at a title is probably less than zero right now. The team from top to bottom is a mess. Time to clinch our butt cheeks and hold onto the Brooklyn pick and any future assets. The only way this changes is if LeBron commits, which it doesn't look like he will.

I still have confidence that we can make it out of the East (Love got injured last year around this time and torched the East in the playoffs) if we're fully healthy, but this Cavs team is definitely vulnerable. Regardless, a West team is gonna throttle whoever appears out of the East so it really doesn't matter at this point.

We do need to sit down with LeBron. If he commits, then we trade everything we can to improve. If he says he's leaving, then we blow it up. If he says he hasn't decided or won't give an answer, then we leave everything the same and keep the Brooklyn pick. We've been burned once by his indecisive nature and tendency to keep everything close to his chest (and so has Pat Riley) and I'm glad Gilbert refuses to make big moves and allow us to get burned again.

We're looking st the wrong guy here though. They need to have a sit down with Wade and see what his plans are, he's the best/most impactful player on the team and he doesn't have many years left. If he says he'll stay then trade the Nets pick and maybe even Love, if not then take the gamble and still do it.

nastynice
01-31-2018, 02:54 PM
So? That doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has to have some say in where he's dealt.

If LeBron plans to leave why would he go somewhere and make them trade pieces? He's made it clear he wants his teams as stacked as they can get, no way he goes somewhere in a manner that makes that place give up assets

Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 03:43 PM
Lol no.I'm gonna tell you what is going to happen here. The Celtics and Raptors will go neck and neck to the finish line for 1st. The Cavs are a deeply flawed roster with serious health issues and locker room distractions - they are unlikely to be a serious threat with so much dysfunction.

So the Raptors and Celtics will very likely meet for the East finals. Kyrie will see his LeBron or Jordan moment, the one he's been dreaming of since he entered the league. Remember this is the guy who famously told his coach that playing faster to get shots easier was unnecessary because he doesn't need to to get HIS shots.

The Raptors will invite it because they know the same thing everyone except him already knew - he's not even close to that level.

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Vee-Rex
01-31-2018, 03:58 PM
I'm gonna tell you what is going to happen here. The Celtics and Raptors will go neck and neck to the finish line for 1st. The Cavs are a deeply flawed roster with serious health issues and locker room distractions - they are unlikely to be a serious threat with so much dysfunction.

So the Raptors and Celtics will very likely meet for the East finals. Kyrie will see his LeBron or Jordan moment, the one he's been dreaming of since he entered the league. Remember this is the guy who famously told his coach that playing faster to get shots easier was unnecessary because he doesn't need to to get HIS shots.

The Raptors will invite it because they know the same thing everyone except him already knew - he's not even close to that level.

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I get you're probably giddy and excited, but remember to curb those guarantees. Afterall, you still have yet to eat your crow on GUARANDAMN-TEEING to the 324098234th degree that Kevin Love was FOR SURE gonna bolt from the Cavs after the 2014-15 season.

;)

nastynice
01-31-2018, 04:05 PM
I get that this year is worse, but do people really not have the cavs favored to come out the east? It'll be tougher, but they'll still be. The best team come playoffs

goingfor28
01-31-2018, 04:27 PM
I'm gonna tell you what is going to happen here. The Celtics and Raptors will go neck and neck to the finish line for 1st. The Cavs are a deeply flawed roster with serious health issues and locker room distractions - they are unlikely to be a serious threat with so much dysfunction.

So the Raptors and Celtics will very likely meet for the East finals. Kyrie will see his LeBron or Jordan moment, the one he's been dreaming of since he entered the league. Remember this is the guy who famously told his coach that playing faster to get shots easier was unnecessary because he doesn't need to to get HIS shots.

The Raptors will invite it because they know the same thing everyone except him already knew - he's not even close to that level.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using TapatalkThe raptors will be a 1st or 2nd rd exit. They are just like the Clippers had been the past several years. Good regular season team who fails in the playoffs. If they make the 2nd rd they will not beat Cleveland or Boston. No chance.

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Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 04:32 PM
I get you're probably giddy and excited, but remember to curb those guarantees. Afterall, you still have yet to eat your crow on GUARANDAMN-TEEING to the 324098234th degree that Kevin Love was FOR SURE gonna bolt from the Cavs after the 2014-15 season.

;)I can't say I remember ever having any conversations before today about Kevin Love, regarding just about anything, much less what you are saying. Not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't remember anything like this.

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Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 07:21 PM
The raptors will be a 1st or 2nd rd exit. They are just like the Clippers had been the past several years. Good regular season team who fails in the playoffs. If they make the 2nd rd they will not beat Cleveland or Boston. No chance.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using TapatalkThat's fairly ignorant. It's not the same team unless your point is that Lowry and Derozan are still there.

They are outperforming both Boston and Cleveland by just about any metric you care to look at.

VanVleet
Siakam
Anunoby
Wright
Poeltle

are all playing significant roles, and very well. those 5 have played 4,500 minutes thus far. Last year they account for 2,225. We haven't even got to the break yet either. The composition has changed a lot don't be fooled. Even if you haven't heard much about these young players.


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FlashBolt
01-31-2018, 07:32 PM
LeBron doesn't want to hurt his legacy and distrust with Wade (since he's the reason Wade went to CLE). But if the Cavs had a good trade that would put LeBron on a team that can win, he would take it.. this team ain't winning. If Cavs don't trade the BKLYN pick this season, they will get swept by the Warriors and LeBron leaves 100%.

WaDe03
01-31-2018, 07:55 PM
LeBron doesn't want to hurt his legacy and distrust with Wade (since he's the reason Wade went to CLE). But if the Cavs had a good trade that would put LeBron on a team that can win, he would take it.. this team ain't winning. If Cavs don't trade the BKLYN pick this season, they will get swept by the Warriors and LeBron leaves 100%.

They could always just send Wade too, he's on a minimum contract. They definitely will make moves though.

Scoots
01-31-2018, 11:39 PM
LeBron doesn't want to hurt his legacy and distrust with Wade (since he's the reason Wade went to CLE). But if the Cavs had a good trade that would put LeBron on a team that can win, he would take it.. this team ain't winning. If Cavs don't trade the BKLYN pick this season, they will get swept by the Warriors and LeBron leaves 100%.

Do you think LeBron is maybe just a little hoping the Cavs fall apart this year so it's easier to leave?

BKLYNpigeon
02-01-2018, 12:09 AM
I think they will all still hate on Lebron for leaving.

He is setting up the narrative and leaving breadcrumbs with his latest comments about Blake being traded. said its a double standard when teams trade you and when players leave in free agency.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 04:03 AM
Do you think LeBron is maybe just a little hoping the Cavs fall apart this year so it's easier to leave?

I think it's past easier. LeBron didn't want Kyrie to get traded but it seems management tried to trade Kyrie in an attempt to get PG/Bledsoe. Reports are LeBron never wanted IT and when David Griffin was out as GM, Dan Gilbert took over and forced a trade. They said IT and Gilbert are really "close" so it would make sense that Gilbert pushed for a trade. I think it's a foregone conclusion LeBron is leaving. If Cavs don't trade that 1st BKLYN, LeBron would probably feel slighted and just move on. Best case scenario is a S&T and LeBron gets to a team where they don't have to do a massive overhaul. IMO, I think if Rockets can pull off a S&T for LeBron, Wade would follow and Melo would opt out of OKC. They'll all probably take paycuts. Realistic scenario.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:24 AM
Lebron has already left.

nastynice
02-01-2018, 06:29 AM
. If Cavs don't trade that 1st BKLYN, LeBron would probably feel slighted and just move on.

lol, bro I'm sure he understands

Scoots
02-01-2018, 11:18 AM
I think it's past easier. LeBron didn't want Kyrie to get traded but it seems management tried to trade Kyrie in an attempt to get PG/Bledsoe. Reports are LeBron never wanted IT and when David Griffin was out as GM, Dan Gilbert took over and forced a trade. They said IT and Gilbert are really "close" so it would make sense that Gilbert pushed for a trade. I think it's a foregone conclusion LeBron is leaving. If Cavs don't trade that 1st BKLYN, LeBron would probably feel slighted and just move on. Best case scenario is a S&T and LeBron gets to a team where they don't have to do a massive overhaul. IMO, I think if Rockets can pull off a S&T for LeBron, Wade would follow and Melo would opt out of OKC. They'll all probably take paycuts. Realistic scenario.

NOW LeBron says he didn't want Kyrie traded ... who knows what he wanted at the end of last season. It does seem things are lining up for him in every way but winning. Even this failed trade for Hill is reported by Brian Windhorst (LeBron's guy, but a decent reporter), as the Cavs being "cheap" further paving LeBron's legacy's smooth exit from Cleveland.

Think how comparatively hard it would have been to leave if things went smooth and they made the finals again and won a couple games?

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 03:21 PM
NOW LeBron says he didn't want Kyrie traded ... who knows what he wanted at the end of last season. It does seem things are lining up for him in every way but winning. Even this failed trade for Hill is reported by Brian Windhorst (LeBron's guy, but a decent reporter), as the Cavs being "cheap" further paving LeBron's legacy's smooth exit from Cleveland.

Think how comparatively hard it would have been to leave if things went smooth and they made the finals again and won a couple games?

How do you know what he did or didn't say? Last year after Cavs lost the Finals, LeBron said to Kyrie: "We'll get them back next year." Why would he then want to trade Kyrie KNOWING Kyrie was a large part of their success? It's just inconsistent with him wanting Kyrie to leave. So this George Hill trade, can you tell me the roadblock? Are you seriously gonna sit there and say LeBron is paying Brian Windhorst to make his team look as bad as possible? Lol, c'mon. You and I both know that if the Cavs stink this season and LeBron leaves, he would be seen as a quitter whereas if they lost in the Finals and they played well, it would just be another case of the Warriors are too good.

Scoots
02-01-2018, 07:31 PM
How do you know what he did or didn't say? Last year after Cavs lost the Finals, LeBron said to Kyrie: "We'll get them back next year." Why would he then want to trade Kyrie KNOWING Kyrie was a large part of their success? It's just inconsistent with him wanting Kyrie to leave. So this George Hill trade, can you tell me the roadblock? Are you seriously gonna sit there and say LeBron is paying Brian Windhorst to make his team look as bad as possible? Lol, c'mon. You and I both know that if the Cavs stink this season and LeBron leaves, he would be seen as a quitter whereas if they lost in the Finals and they played well, it would just be another case of the Warriors are too good.

Did I claim to know what he did or didn't say? Are you saying LeBron always says what he means when cameras around? Windhorst has knowingly built his career around LeBron and he knows where his bread is buttered. Does LeBron pay him directly? I hope not, but indirectly? Absolutely.

If LeBron leaves after this season he can spin it easily ... The team screwed up the trades, they didn't keep the GM who made winning moves, they cheaped out on moves to improve.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 07:35 PM
Did I claim to know what he did or didn't say? Are you saying LeBron always says what he means when cameras around? Windhorst has knowingly built his career around LeBron and he knows where his bread is buttered. Does LeBron pay him directly? I hope not, but indirectly? Absolutely.

If LeBron leaves after this season he can spin it easily ... The team screwed up the trades, they didn't keep the GM who made winning moves, they cheaped out on moves to improve.

It seems everyone uses the, "I never said that or this." It was a generic statement. No one knows. That's my point. I'm basing it off whether or not it adds up from my end. Saying "we'll be back here again next here" and then saying he wants to trade Kyrie is inconsistent from his part. Windhorst has said negative things about LeBron before. He understands his role in this but to say Windhorst is orchestrating the media as if he has that type of leverage is quite a power statement from you.

Scoots
02-03-2018, 03:22 PM
It seems everyone uses the, "I never said that or this." It was a generic statement. No one knows. That's my point. I'm basing it off whether or not it adds up from my end. Saying "we'll be back here again next here" and then saying he wants to trade Kyrie is inconsistent from his part. Windhorst has said negative things about LeBron before. He understands his role in this but to say Windhorst is orchestrating the media as if he has that type of leverage is quite a power statement from you.

I literally said "who knows" and you replied with "how do you know" ... I don't think you even read what I wrote. :)

LeBron saying things for teammates doesn't mean he thinks them.

I didn't say LeBron was orchestrating it, I just said it's all working out perfectly for him getting the easiest possible exit.

You seem to agree for the most part so I don't know why you are arguing.