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valade16
01-29-2018, 02:57 PM
So we do a ďtop 25 greatest players of all-time listĒ here on PSD, but I wanted to do a best, not greatest list.

What is the difference?

This is NOT a list that measures a players career or accolades, it is simply a list of, if all the players were in their peak/in their prime/at their best/etc. and all in a draft, who would you take first on your team.

Current List

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
T-3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
T-3. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Shaquille OíNeal
6. Magic Johnson
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Tim Duncan

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 03:09 PM
I'll go with Curry here. His run the last 3-4 years is more impressive than anything that any other players left have accomplished at their peaks. You could make a strong case for other guys who had more of an impact on the defensive end and/or stepped up more in big moments (like Wade), but for peak dominance, nobody left on the board can match Curry's production.

KnicksorBust
01-29-2018, 03:24 PM
30ppg on 67%TS%. Hits threes from 5 feet behind the line. He's a video game character brought to life. Changed the game and is shattering the records.

Peak Curry all day.

valade16
01-29-2018, 03:27 PM
Iím almost as fascinated as who has (and hasnít) been nominated thus far.

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 03:34 PM
Iím almost as fascinated as who has (and hasnít) been nominated thus far.

I think they're still several spots away for me, but I'll nominate David Robinson and Chris Paul. Dirk and KG aren't too far behind those guys, but the Admiral and CP3 would both likely be a little higher on my list.

LeonFSU
01-29-2018, 03:38 PM
Iím almost as fascinated as who has (and hasnít) been nominated thus far.

With Barkley and Durant up there, a case can probably be made for Garnett, McGrady, Malone, Dirk and David Robinson.

Texan_Rocket
01-29-2018, 05:57 PM
With Barkley and Durant up there, a case can probably be made for Garnett, McGrady, Malone, Dirk and David Robinson.

McGrady peak has to be in the conversation. His ability to score was phenomenal to watch and talk about clutch, he had it. Sucks that injuries/horrible supporting casts hindered him from being Kobe like imo

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 09:00 PM
Why do we use peak as just offensive and not take everything into account? Its not best offensive player but best player.... If it was just offensively give me curry... How can we honestly sit here and put Curry over Durant?

Shammyguy3
01-29-2018, 09:21 PM
Why do we use peak as just offensive and not take everything into account? Its not best offensive player but best player.... If it was just offensively give me curry... How can we honestly sit here and put Curry over Durant?

In that case, Durant should go ahead of Magic. I agree to a point, which is why Duncan is in the top-10 even though offensively he doesn't compare to other greats efficiency wise

tredigs
01-29-2018, 09:52 PM
Why do we use peak as just offensive and not take everything into account? Its not best offensive player but best player.... If it was just offensively give me curry... How can we honestly sit here and put Curry over Durant?
They're both acclimated + healthy in their peak at the same time. Who's team is it? It's Curry's man. Period.

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 10:07 PM
They're both acclimated + healthy in their peak at the same time. Who's team is it? It's Curry's man. Period.

Its only currys team because he was there first... Being currys team means nothing when the team helps cover up for currys weakness which is his defense. Durant has no weakness... Nobody covers up for Durant at anything and on a neutral team without all world defenders around them Durants game is better/more impactful and is much more complete and would be a lot harder to defend because of size/shooting/defense. Durant might be a vagina but he was never game planned against in a finals and was forced into a position where the other team explosed said defense to help them come back from a 1-3 deficit... Curry is great but curry is not the better player or more impactful player he is just the slightly better OFFENSIVE player which does not equate to best or most impactful player.

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 10:11 PM
In that case, Durant should go ahead of Magic. I agree to a point, which is why Duncan is in the top-10 even though offensively he doesn't compare to other greats efficiency wise

in terms of impactful and prime Durant should go a head of a whole lot of people in general... I am the first to keep Durant out of my top 10 ever because he is a mental ***** but this is about Skill/prime impact and Durant is as beast as they come.

Shammyguy3
01-29-2018, 10:15 PM
in terms of impactful and prime Durant should go a head of a whole lot of people in general... I am the first to keep Durant out of my top 10 ever because he is a mental ***** but this is about Skill/prime impact and Durant is as beast as they come.

Well, yeah that's why he is currently on the poll. But tell me, which player already voted for should Durant be ahead of?

tredigs
01-29-2018, 10:15 PM
Its only currys team because he was there first... Being currys team means nothing when the team helps cover up for currys weakness which is his defense. Durant has no weakness... Nobody covers up for Durant at anything and on a neutral team without all world defenders around them Durants game is better/more impactful and is much more complete and would be a lot harder to defend because of size/shooting/defense. Durant might be a vagina but he was never game planned against in a finals and was forced into a position where the other team explosed said defense to help them come back from a 1-3 deficit... Curry is great but curry is not the better player or more impactful player he is just the slightly better OFFENSIVE player which does not equate to best or most impactful player.

I mean I literally watch every game and stats+eye test wise you're just wrong. They're both great, but Curry obviously runs the offense and ultimately that is why this team is what it is. And that was before KD.

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 10:16 PM
Well, yeah that's why he is currently on the poll. But tell me, which player already voted for should Durant be ahead of?

in terms of all around play in their prime id take Durant over both magic and Bird.

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 10:21 PM
I mean I literally watch every game and stats+eye test wise you're just wrong. They're both great, but Curry obviously runs the offense and ultimately that is why this team is what it is. And that was before KD.

Yes and their team has 0 to do with their skill/impact right? Again if you put curry on the Nets does he add more of an impact than Durant would? If you say yes you should reevaluate your overall thinking... We are talking about prime while ignoring 50 percent of the sport when arguing Curry over Durant... Is curry better offensively? Sure... Curry excels at team defense because he quite literally has 4 all world defenders in Klay/Dray/Iggy/Durant next to him so he is able to play feet off of a guy and rely on help in case they blow by him and he can constantly play much more free.

This is 100 percent silly that we are speaking about prime impact and ignoring 50 percent of the sport yet we have TD as high as he is?

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 10:23 PM
I mean I literally watch every game and stats+eye test wise you're just wrong. They're both great, but Curry obviously runs the offense and ultimately that is why this team is what it is. And that was before KD.

Welp that and plus/minus is the end all be all... :clap:

More-Than-Most
01-29-2018, 10:31 PM
Oh well they are just rankings and chicks dig the long ball... I went with Durant because he in his prime is the better all around player.

ewing
01-30-2018, 07:34 AM
I went Curry. KD is ***** and I didn't actually see Walton.

valade16
01-30-2018, 11:44 AM
Itís weird to me that KDís defense is being used as the deciding point between he and Curry because he was never considered an especially good defender until he went to GS. I imagine their elite defense has certainly helped KD on that end (as it has Curry).

mightybosstone
01-30-2018, 11:54 AM
Itís weird to me that KDís defense is being used as the deciding point between he and Curry because he was never considered an especially good defender until he went to GS. I imagine their elite defense has certainly helped KD on that end (as it has Curry).

I don't think we can give Durant credit as an excellent defender for the entirety of his peak. He was solid, if unspectacular defensively in his team in OKC. He's been much better in Golden State, and it's shocking to me how much of an asset he's been on that end of the floor as a Warrior. But I don't think this is the same Durant defensively as he was in Oklahoma.

KnicksorBust
01-30-2018, 12:31 PM
Itís weird to me that KDís defense is being used as the deciding point between he and Curry because he was never considered an especially good defender until he went to GS. I imagine their elite defense has certainly helped KD on that end (as it has Curry).


I don't think we can give Durant credit as an excellent defender for the entirety of his peak. He was solid, if unspectacular defensively in his team in OKC. He's been much better in Golden State, and it's shocking to me how much of an asset he's been on that end of the floor as a Warrior. But I don't think this is the same Durant defensively as he was in Oklahoma.

Would it really be hard to argue 2016-2017 is the best version of Kevin Durant? The offense was as good as ever just less volume and the defense transformed from average to impactful.

KnicksorBust
01-30-2018, 12:33 PM
Yes and their team has 0 to do with their skill/impact right? Again if you put curry on the Nets does he add more of an impact than Durant would? If you say yes you should reevaluate your overall thinking... We are talking about prime while ignoring 50 percent of the sport when arguing Curry over Durant... Is curry better offensively? Sure... Curry excels at team defense because he quite literally has 4 all world defenders in Klay/Dray/Iggy/Durant next to him so he is able to play feet off of a guy and rely on help in case they blow by him and he can constantly play much more free.

This is 100 percent silly that we are speaking about prime impact and ignoring 50 percent of the sport yet we have TD as high as he is?

Saying defense is 50% of the sport is true but you can't equate offensive impact to defensive impact. That's why Ben Wallace would never get drafted ahead of James Harden. What James Harden does on offensive is more valuable than what Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo ever did defensively.

KnicksorBust
01-30-2018, 12:49 PM
Where is Shammy? He promised me Curry would be safe against Kobe. Stupid Durant votes.

mightybosstone
01-30-2018, 12:50 PM
Would it really be hard to argue 2016-2017 is the best version of Kevin Durant? The offense was as good as ever just less volume and the defense transformed from average to impactful.

He's definitely a more well-rounded player today than he ever was in OKC. But because that alpha dog status is in question with him playing next to Curry and he's less of the offensive focal point as a Warrior, I think his OKC seasons will historically be more likely measured as his peak. But I'm building a team to win a championship today, give me this version of Durant over peak OKC Durant.

mightybosstone
01-30-2018, 12:52 PM
Wow. How is Kobe winning this? I get the sense that people are voting in the poll and not reading the premise of this exercise. Valade, you may want to rework your poll question. Something like: "Which of the remaining players was best at their peaks?"

Shammyguy3
01-30-2018, 01:57 PM
Where is Shammy? He promised me Curry would be safe against Kobe. Stupid Durant votes.


Idk how, but it's happening!

mightybosstone
01-30-2018, 02:15 PM
All of these Kobe voters, and not a single one of them has explained himself in this thread. What gives, guys? What justification do you have for peak Kobe over peak Curry? I can understand the vote, but I'd at least like a little explanation and debate here.

Shammyguy3
01-30-2018, 02:17 PM
All of these Kobe voters, and not a single one of them has explained himself in this thread. What gives, guys? What justification do you have for peak Kobe over peak Curry? I can understand the vote, but I'd at least like a little explanation and debate here.

Don't think you're gonna get a response from any of them

FlashBolt
01-30-2018, 03:36 PM
lol @ the Lakers fans thinking Kobe had a better peak than Curry...

Chronz
01-30-2018, 05:21 PM
Gimme Kobe too, would go tmac but I allow for a margin of error that has me admitting winning matters

Chronz
01-30-2018, 05:23 PM
Tmac ***** on Curry, that I know for sure if were talking peak

valade16
01-31-2018, 03:00 AM
Wow. How is Kobe winning this? I get the sense that people are voting in the poll and not reading the premise of this exercise. Valade, you may want to rework your poll question. Something like: "Which of the remaining players was best at their peaks?"

I will do that in the future, but honestly, I don't think it would make much of a difference for some players (such as Kobe, Wade, etc.)

FlashBolt
01-31-2018, 03:55 AM
I will do that in the future, but honestly, I don't think it would make much of a difference for some players (such as Kobe, Wade, etc.)

There is zero logic in Kobe>Curry or KD in terms of peak. Absolutely NONE.

GREATNESS ONE
01-31-2018, 11:53 AM
aww are you guys upset? Kobe would destroy Curry 1v1 Peak vs Peak. Lolz hilarious the "Kobe hater group"


I'm not voting Curry next thread either, there's still better all-around peak players.

WaDe03
01-31-2018, 12:01 PM
aww are you guys upset? Kobe would destroy Curry 1v1 Peak vs Peak. Lolz hilarious the "Kobe hater group"


I'm not voting Curry next thread either, there's still better all-around peak players.

You should cast your vote for Wade.

mightybosstone
01-31-2018, 12:04 PM
aww are you guys upset? Kobe would destroy Curry 1v1 Peak vs Peak. Lolz hilarious the "Kobe hater group"


I'm not voting Curry next thread either, there's still better all-around peak players.

I don't hate the guy. I just have this thing where when I clearly know one thing is better than the other, I express that opinion. And peak Curry is simply much better than peak Kobe. And I have no dog in this fight. I hated Kobe AND I hate Curry, so there's really no reason for me to lie about this. My hatred is not especially biased one more or the other. In fact, my hatred for Curry is far fresher, so if anything, I should be more biased against that guy.

mightybosstone
01-31-2018, 12:04 PM
Tmac ***** on Curry, that I know for sure if were talking peak

Your love of T-Mac is both appreciated and completely irrational.

GREATNESS ONE
01-31-2018, 12:05 PM
You should cast your vote for Wade.

over Curry easily.

GREATNESS ONE
01-31-2018, 12:07 PM
I don't hate the guy. I just have this thing where when I clearly know one thing is better than the other, I express that opinion. And peak Curry is simply much better than peak Kobe. And I have no dog in this fight. I hated Kobe AND I hate Curry, so there's really no reason for me to lie about this. My hatred is not especially biased one more or the other. In fact, my hatred for Curry is far fresher, so if anything, I should be more biased against that guy.

All of you guys not just hate have hated Kobe for over a decade. You guys have hated him with a passion and its been so long it's ingrained in all of your dna's. Whatever you can do to **** on Kobe and his career, I have seen it all on PSD and as amusing as it is, I have come to acceptance that everyone who voted for Curry thinks Kobe is 12-16 all time. Hilarious.

Shammyguy3
01-31-2018, 12:27 PM
All of you guys not just hate have hated Kobe for over a decade. You guys have hated him with a passion and its been so long it's ingrained in all of your dna's. Whatever you can do to **** on Kobe and his career, I have seen it all on PSD and as amusing as it is, I have come to acceptance that everyone who voted for Curry thinks Kobe is 12-16 all time. Hilarious.

Sounds about right.


And in regards for Kobe vs Curry 1 on 1... what does that have to do with a game that has 10 players on the court at all times?

GREATNESS ONE
01-31-2018, 12:28 PM
Sounds about right.


And in regards for Kobe vs Curry 1 on 1... what does that have to do with a game that has 10 players on the court at all times?

:laugh2:

Shammyguy3
01-31-2018, 12:39 PM
:laugh2:

https://media2.giphy.com/media/DeJ2ifS2V2zlu/200_s.gif

mightybosstone
01-31-2018, 01:01 PM
All of you guys not just hate have hated Kobe for over a decade. You guys have hated him with a passion and its been so long it's ingrained in all of your dna's. Whatever you can do to **** on Kobe and his career, I have seen it all on PSD and as amusing as it is, I have come to acceptance that everyone who voted for Curry thinks Kobe is 12-16 all time. Hilarious.

Greatness, I love you dude, but that's completely insane. You're trying to explain to me why my own hatred of a player is greater than another's. Do you have any idea how crazy that is? How can you be a better judge of my own opinion than I am?

Also, you're wrong about my ranking. I have Kobe at 11 in a regular all-time discussion (which this is not). But the reason I have Kobe that high has less to do with his peak performance than the strength, consistency and longevity of his prime overall. Kobe was really good for a really long period of time. And that's why he's a top 11 guy in a normal all-time discussion, but not a great player in a peak conversation.

In a period of like 3-4 years, Curry won two MVPs and two titles, and had one of the greatest individual seasons in the history of the NBA. Cury's 15-16 season is so far greater than any season Kobe ever had that it's not even worth arguing. Frankly, his 2014-15 season and the year he's having in 2017-18 are far stronger than any season Kobe's ever had. His shooting and scoring efficiency is on an otherworldly level we've never seen before, and Kobe didn't come close to matching that.

And if we were just having a normal all-time discussion and longevity was a factor, I can assure you that the vast majority of the people voting in this thread would take Kobe over Curry. Without question. But this isn't that discussion, and that's what you're failing to recognize.

archdevil84
01-31-2018, 01:17 PM
i would vote curry but im a wade homer so yeah, wade it is

Shammyguy3
01-31-2018, 01:46 PM
And if we were just having a normal all-time discussion and longevity was a factor, I can assure you that the vast majority of the people voting in this thread would take Kobe over Curry. Without question. But this isn't that discussion, and that's what you're failing to recognize.

Agreed 100% with this. Kobe is phenomenal as a career player. That's because he was consistently great for the better part of 12ish seasons. That's why he is ahead of Wade all-time, even though Wade's prime is superior. Which is what this thread is about.

FlashBolt
01-31-2018, 04:49 PM
This thread should close. Kobe's peak over Curry's peak is enough evidence that the homers have infiltrated the forums.

KnicksorBust
01-31-2018, 05:49 PM
This thread should close. Kobe's peak over Curry's peak is enough evidence that the homers have infiltrated the forums.

I am disappointed. Luckily its about to get fun after Curry goes #11.

JordansBulls
01-31-2018, 10:41 PM
How is Bill Russell not an option?

Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 10:48 PM
I don't hate the guy. I just have this thing where when I clearly know one thing is better than the other, I express that opinion. And peak Curry is simply much better than peak Kobe. And I have no dog in this fight. I hated Kobe AND I hate Curry, so there's really no reason for me to lie about this. My hatred is not especially biased one more or the other. In fact, my hatred for Curry is far fresher, so if anything, I should be more biased against that guy.Really? I'm surprised. There are 2 ends to a basketball court. 2.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

LOb0
01-31-2018, 11:43 PM
The biggest failure of this entire thing is not putting "peak" in the title. I didn't even notice at first and I'm sure many others didn't as well.

"Best player of all time list" When it's not that at all. No sĥ*t Kobe got picked 10.

valade16
01-31-2018, 11:46 PM
The biggest failure of this entire thing is not putting "peak" in the title. I didn't even notice at first and I'm sure many others didn't as well.

"Best player of all time list" When it's not that at all. No ***** Kobe got picked 10.

In which title? The main one for the thread or the poll? I mean, the entire first post in every one of these is dedicated to specifying it's for peak, but I'll be sure to update the titles.

LOb0
01-31-2018, 11:48 PM
In which title? The main one for the thread or the poll? I mean, the entire first post in every one of these is dedicated to specifying it's for peak, but I'll be sure to update the titles.

The main title, it says "Best Player of All-Time List (#10)"

Why not "Best Player Peak All-Time List (#10)".

Like I get people should read the thread but 70% see that and just vote their top 10 without factoring in peaks.

valade16
01-31-2018, 11:59 PM
The main title, it says "Best Player of All-Time List (#10)"

Why not "Best Player Peak All-Time List (#10)".

Like I get people should read the thread but 70% see that and just vote their top 10 without factoring in peaks.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to update the titles from here on out.

If you have already voted and meant to vote for someone else let me know and I'll be sure to calculate that when I do the totals.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 12:07 AM
Really? I'm surprised. There are 2 ends to a basketball court. 2.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Curry is not a great man-defender. But I've always said that point guard defense is overrated. And While Kobe was stellar at that end, a great wing defender doesn't have remotely the same impact as a great defensive big man. The edge Kobe has on the defensive side of the ball doesn't make up for his massive advantage offensively and Curry's overall impact when he's on the floor.

Romeo Naes
02-01-2018, 12:13 AM
Curry top ten... Come on now. Not yet anyways. Where is Bill Russell. Wow, some serious Bill Russell hate goin on here lol.

Romeo Naes
02-01-2018, 12:14 AM
I have Bill Russell at number six. Kobe 8-10 range is fair. Lebron at number two ahead of Kareem and Wilt. Wow.

mightybosstone
02-01-2018, 12:17 AM
Curry top ten... Come on now. Not yet anyways. Where is Bill Russell. Wow, some serious Bill Russell hate goin on here lol.
This is based solely on peak. Longevity doesn't matter in this vote.

Romeo Naes
02-01-2018, 12:21 AM
This is based solely on peak. Longevity doesn't matter in this vote.

Hmmmm. Didn't see that. But still, not to have him nominated at all is kinda dumb. I could easily build a great team around him in his peak. Doesn't defense mean anything anymore...

valade16
02-01-2018, 01:18 AM
Hmmmm. Didn't see that. But still, not to have him nominated at all is kinda dumb. I could easily build a great team around him in his peak. Doesn't defense mean anything anymore...

I will be adding him to the next poll. Welcome to PSD and thanks for commenting and voting!

More-Than-Most
02-01-2018, 01:37 AM
cant even be mad... laker fans united for this some ***** lolololol

More-Than-Most
02-01-2018, 01:39 AM
can laker fans please help get Durant number 11.... curry over Durant makes me sick

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:39 AM
Curry is not a great man-defender. But I've always said that point guard defense is overrated. And While Kobe was stellar at that end, a great wing defender doesn't have remotely the same impact as a great defensive big man. The edge Kobe has on the defensive side of the ball doesn't make up for his massive advantage offensively and Curry's overall impact when he's on the floor.

Kobe was a stellar defender? Shammy and I know he was ďbarely average!Ē

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:44 AM
can laker fans please help get Durant number 11.... curry over Durant makes me sick

Itís not even all Lakers fans, itís people who love basketball and know, numbers arenít everything. Kobe would have the same per/WS/etc etc etc with teammates like Durant, Green, Klay over Smush, Kwami, LO, Brian Cook..... Kobe had his highest peak wasted, but showed his peak was a decade 01-10 Kobe won and ended a title in his 10years dominance of the NBA. People just built a decade long hate for him and the Lakers and thatís ok. PSD is funny, all-time greats would have Kobe much higher than 12-16 or 10th here..... yea Peak can be backed by numbers but if weíre just looking up basketballreference for our answers, we might as well not even watch the games.


ALso, Iím not voting Curry 11 thatís ridiculous. In his Peak, Iím assuming is now, he couldnít guard anyone on this list or players that have been nominated to vote. I like Curry but weíre too impatient to not let this play out, let the Dubs Win 3 more Titles :laugh2: my goodness.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:48 AM
Hmmmm. Didn't see that. But still, not to have him nominated at all is kinda dumb. I could easily build a great team around him in his peak. Doesn't defense mean anything anymore...

This is 2018 Basketball. Thereís barely on one hand great defenders in the league. Not the basketball we grew up watching.

More-Than-Most
02-01-2018, 01:48 AM
Itís not even all Lakers fans, itís people who love basketball and know, numbers arenít everything. Kobe would have the same per/WS/etc etc etc with teammates like Durant, Green, Klay over Smush, Kwami, LO, Brian Cook..... Kobe had his highest peak wasted, but showed his peak was a decade 01-10 Kobe won and ended a title in his 10years dominance of the NBA. People just built a decade long hate for him and the Lakers and thatís ok. PSD is funny, all-time greats would have Kobe much higher than 12-16 or 10th here..... yea Peak can be backed by numbers but if weíre just looking up basketballreference for our answers, we might as well not even watch the games.


ALso, Iím not voting Curry 11 thatís ridiculous. In his Peak, Iím assuming is now, he couldnít guard anyone on this list or players that have been nominated to vote. I like Curry but weíre too impatient to not let this play out, let the Dubs Win 3 more Titles :laugh2: my goodness.

:clap:

i just dont get it... we ignore half the sport... Offense should be weighed more but to just forget about defense in general is hilarious.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 01:51 AM
:clap:

i just dont get it... we ignore half the sport... Offense should be weighed more but to just forget about defense in general is hilarious.

I think most people are just caught in the moment. Itís a fun era and all these 3ís are cute but man, itís like everyone forgot what a dominant shut down defender looks like. Why Kawhi is a lot of fun to watch guard the best players in this game.

jaydubb
02-01-2018, 01:56 AM
:clap:

i just dont get it... we ignore half the sport... Offense should be weighed more but to just forget about defense in general is hilarious.

Thank you thank you thank you. Amen. Preach. Basketball is a two way sport, end of story

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

valade16
02-01-2018, 01:58 AM
:clap:

i just dont get it... we ignore half the sport... Offense should be weighed more but to just forget about defense in general is hilarious.

Because saying defense is "half the sport" in regards to individual defense for a non-rim protector is like saying Special Teams is "1/3 of football". No, it isn't. Technically yes, but we know that Special Teams is vastly less valuable than either offense or defense, and the same is true here.

Objectively, Steve Nash was terrible at defense and amazing on offense. Objectively, Bruce Bowen was terrible at offense and amazing on defense.

There is a reason that nobody on the face of the earth would pick Bruce Bowen over Steve Nash despite both being equally as good at "half the sport".

tredigs
02-01-2018, 02:06 AM
Because saying defense is "half the sport" in regards to individual defense for a non-rim protector is like saying Special Teams is "1/3 of football". No, it isn't. Technically yes, but we know that Special Teams is vastly less valuable than either offense or defense, and the same is true here.

Objectively, Steve Nash was terrible at defense and amazing on offense. Objectively, Bruce Bowen was terrible at offense and amazing on defense.

There is a reason that nobody on the face of the earth would pick Bruce Bowen over Steve Nash despite both being equally as good at "half the sport".

Exactly right. It's especially mitigated if the guy who lacks the size+athleticism is still a smart and active team defender. If a player is lazy and missing assignments entirely, it becomes a bigger issue (though it can still be covered up for the most part). But if not - especially for guards/wings, the offensive side is demonstrably more important when you're talking about the high volume players. The reason is because one player has a hell of a lot more potential to dominate on offense then they ever could on defense (again, especially when we're not talking about rim protectors, where even there we're talking about a small portion of the floor that they still won't completely shut down).

More-Than-Most
02-01-2018, 02:21 AM
Because saying defense is "half the sport" in regards to individual defense for a non-rim protector is like saying Special Teams is "1/3 of football". No, it isn't. Technically yes, but we know that Special Teams is vastly less valuable than either offense or defense, and the same is true here.

Objectively, Steve Nash was terrible at defense and amazing on offense. Objectively, Bruce Bowen was terrible at offense and amazing on defense.

There is a reason that nobody on the face of the earth would pick Bruce Bowen over Steve Nash despite both being equally as good at "half the sport".

I never said it should be weighed the same... I said its half the game but offense should be weighed higher and I have no issue with that... The issue i have is when it comes to 2 offensive legit guys in Durant/Curry or lebron/curry or KL and curry etc etc etc and we ignore the fact that those players are flat out better.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 02:37 AM
Whatís his Per/WS

valade16
02-01-2018, 02:53 AM
I never said it should be weighed the same... I said its half the game but offense should be weighed higher and I have no issue with that... The issue i have is when it comes to 2 offensive legit guys in Durant/Curry or lebron/curry or KL and curry etc etc etc and we ignore the fact that those players are flat out better.

LeBron, I agree he is flat out better (at least he is a better basketball player even if his impact is not as great as Curry's due to lack of effort this season), but I simply disagree that KD is better than Curry.

You can glean a lot about who is better when both are teammates by who defers to the other and by who opposing teams focus their attention on.

For example, many people were calling the Heat Wade's team when LeBron made his decision, however it soon became apparent that LeBron was the better player and it was his team, with Wade stepping back and playing more of a complementary role. Additionally, in the argument of who was better between Shaq/Kobe we could see that opposing teams were focusing their attention on mitigating Shaq and leaving Kobe largely free from such defensive scrutiny in favor of Shaq.

Both observations are true with Curry and KD. First, KD has deferred to Curry and acknowledged he is the team leader. This is evident by Curry's higher PPG (27.7 to 25.6), his higher USG (31 to 29.7) and his general superior advanced stats (higher PER, TS%, WS/48, BPM and VORP). Second, in last years finals the Cavs completely neglected KD and allowed him to go one on one in order to attempt to limit Curry. They correct surmised what is obvious at this point: Curry is simply the more impactful and dangerous player than KD. Indeed, it is a testament to Curry's superiority that even after KD torched Cleveland in Games 1 and 2, Cleveland still refused to adjust their defensive game plan to focus more on stopping KD as opposed to Curry.

When we look back on this period in Warriors history, everyone will believe Curry was 1A and KD 1B in the same way everyone thinks Bron was 1A, Wade 1B, Shaq 1A, Kobe 1B, Moses 1A, Dr. J 1B.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 02:57 AM
I disagree 1a to 1b, it was clear as day, Durant was the main reason why the Warriors won the title, he was a Huge Difference makes and x-factor.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 03:27 AM
I never said it should be weighed the same... I said its half the game but offense should be weighed higher and I have no issue with that... The issue i have is when it comes to 2 offensive legit guys in Durant/Curry or lebron/curry or KL and curry etc etc etc and we ignore the fact that those players are flat out better.

Curry shatters all those guys (except Bron) offensively. Defense is more of a team category than anything else. It's why it changes year after year based on how a team plays. I mean, Marc Gasol is never going to get any talks about his defense on a losing team yet, he's still practically the same player. It really isn't half the game, tbh. How many plays does a player actually really defend in a game? It's a team concept. Good team defense beats individual defense so it makes zero sense to say defense is half the game when really, it isn't. A player who misses a wide open shot, who's playing defense there?

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 03:28 AM
LeBron, I agree he is flat out better (at least he is a better basketball player even if his impact is not as great as Curry's due to lack of effort this season), but I simply disagree that KD is better than Curry.

You can glean a lot about who is better when both are teammates by who defers to the other and by who opposing teams focus their attention on.

For example, many people were calling the Heat Wade's team when LeBron made his decision, however it soon became apparent that LeBron was the better player and it was his team, with Wade stepping back and playing more of a complementary role. Additionally, in the argument of who was better between Shaq/Kobe we could see that opposing teams were focusing their attention on mitigating Shaq and leaving Kobe largely free from such defensive scrutiny in favor of Shaq.

Both observations are true with Curry and KD. First, KD has deferred to Curry and acknowledged he is the team leader. This is evident by Curry's higher PPG (27.7 to 25.6), his higher USG (31 to 29.7) and his general superior advanced stats (higher PER, TS%, WS/48, BPM and VORP). Second, in last years finals the Cavs completely neglected KD and allowed him to go one on one in order to attempt to limit Curry. They correct surmised what is obvious at this point: Curry is simply the more impactful and dangerous player than KD. Indeed, it is a testament to Curry's superiority that even after KD torched Cleveland in Games 1 and 2, Cleveland still refused to adjust their defensive game plan to focus more on stopping KD as opposed to Curry.

When we look back on this period in Warriors history, everyone will believe Curry was 1A and KD 1B in the same way everyone thinks Bron was 1A, Wade 1B, Shaq 1A, Kobe 1B, Moses 1A, Dr. J 1B.

KD admitted he didn't want to be a leader of a team.

valade16
02-01-2018, 03:32 AM
I disagree 1a to 1b, it was clear as day, Durant was the main reason why the Warriors won the title, he was a Huge Difference makes and x-factor.

It was clear as day, which is so perplexing that everyone keeps insisting KD was the main reason why the Warriors won. The Cavs chose to defend Curry, not KD.

In fact, for the playoffs last year, Curry actually scored just as much as KD (28.1 to 28.5) in the same MPG. Even with KD's Finals performance, Curry still scored just as much.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 03:48 AM
It was clear as day, which is so perplexing that everyone keeps insisting KD was the main reason why the Warriors won. The Cavs chose to defend Curry, not KD.

In fact, for the playoffs last year, Curry actually scored just as much as KD (28.1 to 28.5) in the same MPG. Even with KD's Finals performance, Curry still scored just as much.

playoffs? there was a playoffs last year? All I saw was the Finals. What I saw Clear as day my good friend was the difference maker (some may call a *****) but never the less, the difference maker to Lebron James, who you say is the best player ever and was the defending Champion. I normally don't expend energy but I love/Respect you too much V, we can battle all day ;)

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 04:12 AM
playoffs? there was a playoffs last year? All I saw was the Finals. What I saw Clear as day my good friend was the difference maker (some may call a *****) but never the less, the difference maker to Lebron James, who you say is the best player ever and was the defending Champion. I normally don't expend energy but I love/Respect you too much V, we can battle all day ;)

Same KD that was 14-4 vs LeBron before he went about to join the Warriors? Lol. You guys just try to discredit LeBron and Curry because you want to justify Kobe's "greatness." It's so obvious.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:14 AM
Jerry West in a era of no 3ball is easily a PG/SG guard..... I don't get it sometimes, it's like we have to make it our narrative. I like Flash actually, I find him to be a very intelligent, yet sometimes disrespectful but a very intelligent young man.

we're talking about PG's.. and if your 5 doesn't include Magic, Big O, West than.... You can go from there CP3, Kidd, Nash, Payton, Frazier, Curry(?SG or PG) Thomas, Ball, Stockton,.

I just feel we simply don't look at the entire game sometimes, I feel we're quick to find the fastest answer, even if sometimes it's not the right answer...

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:15 AM
Same KD that was 14-4 vs LeBron before he went about to join the Warriors? Lol. You guys just try to discredit LeBron and Curry because you want to justify Kobe's "greatness." It's so obvious.

What?

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:16 AM
Same KD that was 14-4 vs LeBron before he went about to join the Warriors? Lol. You guys just try to discredit LeBron and Curry because you want to justify Kobe's "greatness." It's so obvious.

14-4? wasn't it like 4-2? Ok Mijo, estamos bien.

leprechaun5
02-01-2018, 06:22 AM
Peak KG > Peak Duncan. He should be on the list to be voted at least, no matter what way you look at it.

jaydubb
02-01-2018, 06:31 AM
Peak KG > Peak Duncan. He should be on the list to be voted at least, no matter what way you look at it.Peak, it's debatable.. Overall, not even close.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

WaDe03
02-01-2018, 10:09 AM
If I had to pick a player to play in an NBA Finals series during their peak I'm taking Wade or Kobe over Curry easily.

KnicksorBust
02-01-2018, 12:46 PM
Where will these 15 Kobe votes go next??? Watch out for Wade or Durant. Curry had a shot at #8 and now he's like that draft pick sitting at the table with an awkward smile and his agent is whispering it's all good, it's all good...

KnicksorBust
02-01-2018, 12:46 PM
I'm leaning:

Curry
Moses
Walton
Durant
Oscar
Wade

Chronz
02-01-2018, 02:30 PM
Peak, it's debatable.. Overall, not even close.

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There is no debate on either front. Show me the period

Chronz
02-01-2018, 02:31 PM
I'm leaning:

Curry
Moses
Walton
Durant
Oscar
Wade

Yuck. Do regular seasons matter that much to you, especially when they have so much help

KnicksorBust
02-01-2018, 03:12 PM
Yuck. Do regular seasons matter that much to you, especially when they have so much help

Guys who dominate, win league mvps, and lead their team to rings... that matters to me. You?

LOb0
02-01-2018, 03:15 PM
Peak KG > Peak Duncan. He should be on the list to be voted at least, no matter what way you look at it.

Not sure how, considering KG would hide from the ball in clutch moments when Duncan was reliable as hell.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 03:18 PM
14-4? wasn't it like 4-2? Ok Mijo, estamos bien.

4-2? You mean 4-1 in the Finals and the regular season was 11-3.. Actually, that helps my case: LeBron was 15-4 vs KD in H2H matchups before KD went to join the Warriors. You are so easy and bad at this. Please just plaster Kobe's face on all your comments as it would be a more acceptable answer, mi perra.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 03:44 PM
so I can just be called a female dog? That's great.

Chronz
02-01-2018, 04:39 PM
Guys who dominate, win league mvps, and lead their team to rings... that matters to me. You?
Mvps? Lol f no
When they win titles, sure but not when they've been as relatively uninspired as Cyrus

Chronz
02-01-2018, 04:40 PM
so I can just be called a female dog? That's great.
Step your game up young blood. So many legendary Laker trolls would be disappointed in your efforts

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 05:01 PM
Step your game up young blood. So many legendary Laker trolls would be disappointed in your efforts

Young blood? Lolz I think weíre the same age or Iím older... ;)

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 05:02 PM
Itís nice to know, I can be called a ***** and no action taken. Iím not even sweating it but itís examples like these that show favoritism. Giannis94 & LolPlease should be unbanned.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 05:03 PM
Itís nice to know, I can be called a ***** and no action taken. Iím not even sweating it but itís examples like these that show favoritism. Giannis94 & LolPlease should be unbanned.

I'm learning my spanish. Thanks for telling me what that word means.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 05:25 PM
Yea I bet.

jaydubb
02-01-2018, 08:49 PM
There is no debate on either front. Show me the period

I wasn't arguing for garnett there, I was just saying garnetts peak was debatable meaning people can debate it if they want. I personally still go with Tim duncan on peak, I mean in Duncan's peak he got a quadruple double in the nba finals (though the scoreboard only credited him with 8 blocks, mistakenly giving two of his blocks to David Robinson, it really shoulda been 10)... Insane.. Overall career isn't close.. Tim duncan is borderline top 5 and KG is probably in the 20-30 range.

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FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 10:03 PM
I wasn't arguing for garnett there, I was just saying garnetts peak was debatable meaning people can debate it if they want. I personally still go with Tim duncan on peak, I mean in Duncan's peak he got a quadruple double in the nba finals (though the scoreboard only credited him with 8 blocks, mistakenly giving two of his blocks to David Robinson, it really shoulda been 10)... Insane.. Overall career isn't close.. Tim duncan is borderline top 5 and KG is probably in the 20-30 range.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I'm part of that pack that thinks Garnett at his peak was debatable. I wonder how different their careers would have been if KG was drafted by Spurs and TD by Minny. Obviously I would still take TD but the conversation would be a lot closer than some think.

TD
KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.fcgi?id=MEfSw

KG vs Duncan H2H

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 10:17 PM
I used to love watching those guys go at it..

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 10:39 PM
I used to love watching those guys go at it..