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Jeffy25
01-28-2018, 01:16 AM
Name your top 10 all-time at each position.

I realize some players played a variety of positions, so it's difficult to name each guy. Just do your best


PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Paul
5. Curry
6. Payton
7. Nash
8. Kidd
9. Thomas
10. Frazier

GREATNESS ONE
01-28-2018, 01:34 AM
Jerry West, Glove and Cousy some love, I like your list though. Donít like doing the ranking thing all these players were great in their respected eras.

Lakers + Giants
01-28-2018, 05:12 AM
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. CP3 (Peak wise curry, but longevity so far is on CP3s side)
4. Curry
5. West
6. Stockton
7. Nash
8. Frazier
9. Payton
10. Kidd

IDC what you guys say, this is my own list. I was gonna go Price @ 10 but kidds defense is too good to pass up, and his playmaking was elite too. I know i know, not OG IT on the list. Eh.

mightybosstone
01-28-2018, 10:50 AM
West is viewed by most as a 2, not a 1. I don't think he belongs on this list.

GREATNESS ONE
01-28-2018, 12:35 PM
West is viewed by most as a 2, not a 1. I don't think he belongs on this list.

he was a 6'2 combo guard and definitely played PG & SG.

Jeffy25
01-28-2018, 02:46 PM
West is viewed by most as a 2, not a 1. I don't think he belongs on this list.

That would be an obvious omission, but I am placing him at SG here, I'd say he's around 2, around Stockton and Oscar.


We could just do guards, forwards, and bigs I guess

Leftcoast_yg
01-28-2018, 04:07 PM
he was a 6'2 combo guard and definitely played PG & SG.

Played next to Gail Goodrich he definitely played a lot of point, he belongs on the list top 5

tredigs
01-28-2018, 04:08 PM
Name your top 10 all-time at each position.

I realize some players played a variety of positions, so it's difficult to name each guy. Just do your best


PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Paul
5. Curry
6. Payton
7. Nash
8. Kidd
9. Thomas
10. Frazier

Talking prime/peak best or just a career ranking?

Shammyguy3
01-28-2018, 05:01 PM
I'm gonna give this list a couple qualifiers

Best Careers
1. Magic Johnson (5 rings, 3 MVP, 3 FMVP, 10 All-NBA) - (#5 All-time for Assists)
2. Stephen Curry (2 rings, 2 MVP, 4 All-NBA)
3. Oscar Robertson (1 ring, 1 MVP, 11 All-NBA) - (#6 All-time for Assists)
4. Bob Cousy (6 rings, 1 MVP, 12 All-NBA) - (#17 All-time for Assists)
5. Steve Nash (2 MVP, 7 All-NBA) - (#3 All-time for Assists)
6. Isiah Thomas (2 rings, 1 FMVP, 5 All-NBA) - (#7 All-time for Assists)
7. Walt Frazier (2 rings, 6 All-NBA, 7 All-D)
8. John Stockton (11 All-NBA, 5 All-D) - (#1 All-time for Assists)
9. Gary Payton (1 ring, 1 DPOY, 9 All-NBA, 9 All-D) - (#8 All-time for Assists)
10. Jason Kidd (1 ring, 6 All-NBA, 9 All-D) - (#2 All-time for Assists)
11. Chris Paul (8 All-NBA, 9 All-D) - (#10 All-time for Assists)



Best Player (Career)
1. Magic Johnson
2. Stephen Curry
3. Oscar Robertson
4. John Stockton
5. Walt Frazier
6. Chris Paul
7. Gary Payton
8. Steve Nash
9. Jason Kidd
10. Isiah Thomas
_________________________________________________
11. Probably Not Bob Cousy



Best Player (Prime/Peak Production)
1. Stephen Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Magic Johnson
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Gary Payton
6. John Stockton
7. Steve Nash
8. Walt Frazier
9. Russell Westbrook
10. Jason Kidd



May be royally ****ing something up, but my mind is kinda numb at the moment

TylerSL
01-28-2018, 05:30 PM
This is my all time list looking at their entire career

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. CP3
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Westbrook
8. Nash
9. Isaiah
10. Payton

SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Iverson
6. Drexler
7. Allen
8. Harden
9. McGrady
10. Gervin

SF
1. Lebron
2. Bird
3. Erving
4. Durant
5. Baylor
6. Havlicek
7. Wilkins
8. Pippen
9. Worthy
10. Melo

PF
1. Duncan
2. K Malone
3. KG
4. Dirk
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Pettit
8. Gasol
9. Hayes
10. Davis

C
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Robinson
6. M Malone
7. Ewing
8. Russell
9. Mikan
10. Reed

basch152
01-28-2018, 05:41 PM
I have serious issues with anyone that thinks the likes of Steve Nash and ****ing Westbrook especially are better than the glove. let alone others like Kidd.

Chronz
01-28-2018, 06:06 PM
he was a 6'2 combo guard and definitely played PG & SG.

He was basically wades height, he'd be listed 64 today

Jeffy25
01-28-2018, 06:58 PM
Talking prime/peak best or just a career ranking?

Just overall career

TylerSL
01-28-2018, 08:54 PM
I have serious issues with anyone that thinks the likes of Steve Nash and ****ing Westbrook especially are better than the glove. let alone others like Kidd.

Westbrook is a clearly better than Payton. GP was great, and a generational defensive player, but Russell Westbrook does more on the court than the Glove. The NBA is more talented today than it has ever been at any point. Players today are better.

Lebron, Durant, Curry, CP3, Harden, Westbrook, and Anthony Davis are all already "all-time greats", as well as players who are on the downturn in Wade and Melo. Guys like Kawhi, Giannis, KAT, Porzingis, and Ben Simmons are on their way too.

FlashBolt
01-28-2018, 09:46 PM
West is more SG than PG. Not a PG by most measures.

Leftcoast_yg
01-28-2018, 10:00 PM
I have serious issues with anyone that thinks the likes of Steve Nash and ****ing Westbrook especially are better than the glove. let alone others like Kidd.

Out of all the PG's, Gary is the only one with a Dpoy award, really impressive top 5 for sure as well.

jaydubb
01-28-2018, 11:01 PM
Jerry west was absolutely a point guard. He was essentially a modern day Steph curry. Or are we gonna start calling Steph curry a shooting guard too now?

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GREATNESS ONE
01-28-2018, 11:58 PM
Jerry west was absolutely a point guard. He was essentially a modern day Steph curry. Or are we gonna start calling Steph curry a shooting guard too now?

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Lol it doesnít fit their narrative. Remember this is PSD, Kobe ranks 12-16 here and people get banned for talking sports.

Chronz
01-29-2018, 12:50 AM
I go Magic, West, Curry, O , CP3, Stockton are set for me

RWB, GP, Nash, Frazier, Kidd, Zeke in some order next

dhopisthename
01-29-2018, 02:20 AM
I must say I have such a hard time rating Stockton. he is the ultimate longevity guy in these discussions. I wonder how he would play in todays game. he was a very good 3pt shooter, but they didn't value 3's back then.

FlashBolt
01-29-2018, 02:45 AM
Lol it doesnít fit their narrative. Remember this is PSD, Kobe ranks 12-16 here and people get banned for talking sports.

Make compelling arguments and Kobe would be rank higher. That's the problem - you guys can't make any arguments satisfying why Kobe deserves to be ranked the way he does. I have Kobe in my top 10 and ahead of Magic/Bird but I make arguments. Some of you really don't make any arguments and just whine about rankings.

GREATNESS ONE
01-29-2018, 02:59 AM
I go Magic, West, Curry, O , CP3, Stockton are set for me

RWB, GP, Nash, Frazier, Kidd, Zeke in some order next

This guy knows

GREATNESS ONE
01-29-2018, 03:00 AM
Make compelling arguments and Kobe would be rank higher. That's the problem - you guys can't make any arguments satisfying why Kobe deserves to be ranked the way he does. I have Kobe in my top 10 and ahead of Magic/Bird but I make arguments. Some of you really don't make any arguments and just whine about rankings.

I have been on here for over 10 years... I have seen it all and it's an exhausting conversation , I just find it hilarious it's only on PSD...

FlashBolt
01-29-2018, 04:45 AM
The problem is there was no PG/SG designated role back then which is why West was a combo-guard. In modern NBA, a PG can be a SG and vice-versa but in terms of pure PG, which is what Magic/CP3/Stockton played, West was not a PG. Even Steph isn't technically a PG but because he's not big enough to be considered a SG, he's playing a PG role. West just fits more at SG for all debating purposes. If you consider him a PG, that's fine. But consensus has always been of that him being a scorer rather than passer.

jaydubb
01-29-2018, 11:01 AM
The problem is there was no PG/SG designated role back then which is why West was a combo-guard. In modern NBA, a PG can be a SG and vice-versa but in terms of pure PG, which is what Magic/CP3/Stockton played, West was not a PG. Even Steph isn't technically a PG but because he's not big enough to be considered a SG, he's playing a PG role. West just fits more at SG for all debating purposes. If you consider him a PG, that's fine. But consensus has always been of that him being a scorer rather than passer.

Depends on what your definition of "point guard" is tbh.. Based on the examples you've given, it seems like you consider a point guard as a player that doesn't score as many points but averages high assist numbers.. Well, yes, Jerry west was a very good scorer, but he was also a very good passer.. He always averaged far more assists than his back court mate, Gail Goodrich. In fact, there was a few years that Goodrich averaged more points than west while Jerry west lead the league in assists.

So if fans want to say that Jerry west wasn't a point guard, well then I guess those same fans can say that those laker teams didn't have a point guard, because for the same reasons that they say Jerry west wasn't a point guard they also would say that Goodrich wasn't a point guard either.. Jerry west just so happened to be the player that ran the offense, the main facilitator, the main playmaker (which is what point guards do).. So if west wasn't the point guard, then nobody was.

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GREATNESS ONE
01-29-2018, 12:02 PM
Great post JayDubb.

europagnpilgrim
01-29-2018, 12:51 PM
I have serious issues with anyone that thinks the likes of Steve Nash and ****ing Westbrook especially are better than the glove. let alone others like Kidd.

I know right, speaking more so on Nash, he is not a top 10 best/most dominant PG, he is one of the better pure shooters who love to over pass but I just hate when these experts place these backup players who eventually started on some magical pedestal, if you are a back up coming into the league and a starter in year 4, there is no way I am looking at you in this special light after 4 or 5 years of seeing what you do, its like me saying M Gasol is a top 10 Center ever because he improved over the years, so what he should improve since he was very basic and avg when he first entered the league

Nash and Stockton should not be on the top 10 best PG list, now Stockton was one of the grittiest/dirtiest, he can fight for that title, and assists are like shot attempts, Stockton/Nash held and pounded the ball until a assist came available, and Stockton use to carry the ball like crazy with that patented one handed flip pass he use to make, go back and watch the film, he was the king of carrying the ball, but it was slick the way he did it


I am taking Offensive players over defensive players, you have to score the most to win the game, regardless of the defense the ''offense'' has to have more points at the end when the clock touches 0000

tredigs
01-29-2018, 02:04 PM
I must say I have such a hard time rating Stockton. he is the ultimate longevity guy in these discussions. I wonder how he would play in todays game. he was a very good 3pt shooter, but they didn't value 3's back then.

Honestly his play style was most similar to CP3 for a modern comparison. They valued 3's and he was a great shooter, but he would definitely be more valuable in today's game with the green light to shoot 6-7 a night.

Malone got the bulk of the points, but honestly most nights I walked away from watching Jazz games feeling like John was the best player on the court and the orchestrater of their consistent dominance.

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 02:16 PM
My top 10 from a previous thread was something like this
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Paul
4. Curry
5. Stockton
6. Frazier
7. Nash
8. Kidd
9. Zeke
10. Payton

The 1-5 are fairly easy, although you could make a good case for Paul, Curry and Stockton really in any order from 3-5. But the 6-10 guys are really hard to rank. I think I had Zeke higher last time, but my opinion on the guy fluctuates. He was a great two-way player and competitor, but his scoring efficiency was just really abysmal.

And, no, I do not consider West a PG. You guys can disagree with me on this, but find me a list of all-time PGs that includes West, and I'll find you 5-10 that name him as a SG. Most analysts list him as a 2, and I'll do the same.

rhino17
01-29-2018, 03:33 PM
Idk how Curry can be outside the top 2 on any of these lists

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 03:45 PM
Idk how Curry can be outside the top 2 on any of these lists

Depends on how you're judging players. If this was a ranking similar to what valade has been doing his his polls where you're solely looking at peak production, then Curry is probably unquestionably the second greatest PG of all-time and has a solid case to go ahead of Magic as No. 1. But if this is a traditional all-time discussion that takes overall accolades, consistency and longevity into account, I think he's got a ways to go to top Magic, Oscar and Paul for me.

tredigs
01-29-2018, 05:44 PM
Depends on how you're judging players. If this was a ranking similar to what valade has been doing his his polls where you're solely looking at peak production, then Curry is probably unquestionably the second greatest PG of all-time and has a solid case to go ahead of Magic as No. 1. But if this is a traditional all-time discussion that takes overall accolades, consistency and longevity into account, I think he's got a ways to go to top Magic, Oscar and Paul for me.

I'd agree. Though with another historic season in the works for Curry this year I'm jumping him past CP most likely. He might just jump everyone at this point.


Edit: To be clear, at point.

rhino17
01-29-2018, 06:14 PM
Depends on how you're judging players. If this was a ranking similar to what valade has been doing his his polls where you're solely looking at peak production, then Curry is probably unquestionably the second greatest PG of all-time and has a solid case to go ahead of Magic as No. 1. But if this is a traditional all-time discussion that takes overall accolades, consistency and longevity into account, I think he's got a ways to go to top Magic, Oscar and Paul for me.

I noticed you ranked Curry in the top 10 all-time in the other thread, but only top 5 for PGs.

For me, Curry has won multiple championships and won as the best player on the team with numbers that have never been matched by anyone else. Other than Magic, idk how anyone could be taken over him. If he retired tomorrow, he will have had a better and more accomplished career than guys like CP3 or Oscar

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 06:34 PM
I noticed you ranked Curry in the top 10 all-time in the other thread, but only top 5 for PGs.
That's because the other thread is looking solely at peak production. Valade's rankings is trying to show what a top 25 list would look if we only looked at a player's peak and didn't take longevity or consistency into consideration at all. I definitely would not put Curry in my top 10 in a traditional all-time discussion. He's borderline top 20-25 for me right now with a very, very long ways to go to crack my top 10.


For me, Curry has won multiple championships and won as the best player on the team with numbers that have never been matched by anyone else. Other than Magic, idk how anyone could be taken over him. If he retired tomorrow, he will have had a better and more accomplished career than guys like CP3 or Oscar
He was an alpha dog on one title team, but his numbers that postseason were pretty pedestrian compared to his regular season numbers. Last year's title, he posted great numbers in the postseason, but he was the second best player on his own team, so I can't give him credit for a title as a No. 1 guy.

If you look at his career, he's had 2.5 incredible, otherwordly seasons and two damn good, All-NBA caliber seasons. But Paul and Oscar had way more than that. Paul and Curry don't have Curry's postseason resume, but Paul's postseason numbers overall are still superior, and they both have an edge on the defensive side of the ball.

I just think the entire career should be taken into consideration, and while Curry's 3-5 year peak is absolutely worthy of considering among the 10 greatest of all-time, he was kind of a late bloomer in his career, and I want to see him keep up this dominance before crowning him as the first or second greatest of all-time. If his ankles keep bothering him or something else impacts his career early on, and he sees a steep decline, that matters.

Basically, if Curry retired today, I don't think he deserves to be ranked higher than guys who were elite players for longer.

FlashBolt
01-29-2018, 06:58 PM
I noticed you ranked Curry in the top 10 all-time in the other thread, but only top 5 for PGs.

For me, Curry has won multiple championships and won as the best player on the team with numbers that have never been matched by anyone else. Other than Magic, idk how anyone could be taken over him. If he retired tomorrow, he will have had a better and more accomplished career than guys like CP3 or Oscar

You've always hated CP3. I think you were the same one who said CP3 in Rockets wouldn't work... what do you have against him?

tredigs
01-29-2018, 07:06 PM
That's because the other thread is looking solely at peak production. Valade's rankings is trying to show what a top 25 list would look if we only looked at a player's peak and didn't take longevity or consistency into consideration at all. I definitely would not put Curry in my top 10 in a traditional all-time discussion. He's borderline top 20-25 for me right now with a very, very long ways to go to crack my top 10.


He was an alpha dog on one title team, but his numbers that postseason were pretty pedestrian compared to his regular season numbers. Last year's title, he posted great numbers in the postseason, but he was the second best player on his own team, so I can't give him credit for a title as a No. 1 guy.

If you look at his career, he's had 2.5 incredible, otherwordly seasons and two damn good, All-NBA caliber seasons. But Paul and Oscar had way more than that. Paul and Curry don't have Curry's postseason resume, but Paul's postseason numbers overall are still superior, and they both have an edge on the defensive side of the ball.

I just think the entire career should be taken into consideration, and while Curry's 3-5 year peak is absolutely worthy of considering among the 10 greatest of all-time, he was kind of a late bloomer in his career, and I want to see him keep up this dominance before crowning him as the first or second greatest of all-time. If his ankles keep bothering him or something else impacts his career early on, and he sees a steep decline, that matters.

Basically, if Curry retired today, I don't think he deserves to be ranked higher than guys who were elite players for longer.

Curry was definitely not the 2nd best player on the Warriors. That narrative is absurd. KD was the best player on the Warriors in November through January of last year while the Warriors catered to him, but once he went down, it was the Curry Show all over and he lead them in the playoffs as well. KD did have an incredible Finals though and earned that FMVP.
This season it is even more pronounced. Curry is a tier above KD.

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 07:13 PM
Curry was definitely not the 2nd best player on the Warriors. That narrative is absurd. KD was the best player on the Warriors in November through January of last year while the Warriors catered to him, but once he went down, it was the Curry Show all over and he lead them in the playoffs as well. KD did have an incredible Finals though and earned that FMVP.
This season it is even more pronounced. Curry is a tier above KD.

Mmmm... The numbers would disagree with you. As would I. Durant's numbers across the board are pretty superior in the regular season and the playoffs last year. You watch more of the games, so I give some credit to you in that regard, but I'm going to trust the data in this case as well as my own eyes, which saw Durant playing the superior basketball last season.

tredigs
01-29-2018, 07:24 PM
Mmmm... The numbers would disagree with you. As would I. Durant's numbers across the board are pretty superior in the regular season and the playoffs last year. You watch more of the games, so I give some credit to you in that regard, but I'm going to trust the data in this case as well as my own eyes, which saw Durant playing the superior basketball last season.

In the playoffs Curry lead in RPM, BPM, VORP and Win Shares. Was far ahead in RPM through the season as well. There was a big shift in the Warriors dynamic when KD went down last year. Curry simply took the team back over and it was realized that they're at their best when that is the case. This year is more of the same and to an even greater degree. There is literally no debate as to who is the teams driving force and best player.

mightybosstone
01-29-2018, 09:01 PM
In the playoffs Curry lead in RPM, BPM, VORP and Win Shares.
He also played in more games. Durant led in PER and WS/48.


Was far ahead in RPM through the season as well.
Every other number favors Durant.


There was a big shift in the Warriors dynamic when KD went down last year. Curry simply took the team back over and it was realized that they're at their best when that is the case. This year is more of the same and to an even greater degree. There is literally no debate as to who is the teams driving force and best player.
I don't think it's as black and white as you make it sound. From the Warriors games I've watched over the last two years, I think the "go-to guy" is constantly shifting. I also think Curry's reliance on the 3-pointer means there are games where he can disappear at times, but Durant's more versatile two-way game means he's have a more consistent impact on the court regardless of whether his shot is falling.

Curry has been better this season, but Durant was better last year, and he certainly had the better Finals.

FlashBolt
01-29-2018, 09:02 PM
Just saying, I think LeBron would rather play vs Curry than KD. And that, IMO, wouldn't be close of a decision for him at all. At the end of the day, there are problems a guy like KD can cause that Curry just can't replicate.

tredigs
01-29-2018, 09:19 PM
Just saying, I think LeBron would rather play vs Curry than KD. And that, IMO, wouldn't be close of a decision for him at all. At the end of the day, there are problems a guy like KD can cause that Curry just can't replicate.
Well Lebron has a horrible judge of talent, so let's call that hypothetical a joke at best. I think what Curry brings simply causes a host of more matchup issues, and I think we saw that by Lebron and the Cavs in how the two were defended in the Finals.

JAZZNC
01-30-2018, 01:52 AM
Honestly his play style was most similar to CP3 for a modern comparison. They valued 3's and he was a great shooter, but he would definitely be more valuable in today's game with the green light to shoot 6-7 a night.

Malone got the bulk of the points, but honestly most nights I walked away from watching Jazz games feeling like John was the best player on the court and the orchestrater of their consistent dominance.

I have always felt that John was the best and smartest player on those Jazz teams. He is so much better than a lot of people give him credit for and a better scorer. He could and did take over games and wish he would have more often. People think he'd get eaten alive today but I feel like that is so far from the truth. I think he'd be better/more valuable especially without the "dump it down low to the big guy" mentality of his era.

Chronz
01-30-2018, 05:59 PM
Well Lebron has a horrible judge of talent, so let's call that hypothetical a joke at best. I think what Curry brings simply causes a host of more matchup issues, and I think we saw that by Lebron and the Cavs in how the two were defended in the Finals.
Lol, roasted. Done and done

valade16
01-31-2018, 09:54 PM
As others have said, if we're talking peak Curry would be at or near #2 all-time, but if we're talking career/accolades Curry would be... at or near #2 all-time...

Seriously, the list of PGs who have won multiple MVPs and led their teams to multiple championships is:

Magic
Cousy
Curry

That's it. And once he makes the All-NBA 1st team this season, it will be his 3rd, tying him with CP3, Frazier and Isiah and behind only:

Magic
Big O
Cousy
Kidd


For PGs all-time. The idea that his career isn't as good as others is a little laughable to me. Would you rather have multiple MVPs, multiple championships or would you rather play longer and not win MVPs or Championships? Seems like a very easy choice to me.

Shammyguy3
01-31-2018, 10:19 PM
As others have said, if we're talking peak Curry would be at or near #2 all-time, but if we're talking career/accolades Curry would be... at or near #2 all-time...

Seriously, the list of PGs who have won multiple MVPs and led their teams to multiple championships is:

Magic
Cousy
Curry

That's it. And once he makes the All-NBA 1st team this season, it will be his 3rd, tying him with CP3, Frazier and Isiah and behind only:

Magic
Big O
Cousy
Kidd


For PGs all-time. The idea that his career isn't as good as others is a little laughable to me. Would you rather have multiple MVPs, multiple championships or would you rather play longer and not win MVPs or Championships? Seems like a very easy choice to me.

take a look at my post in this thread :)

valade16
01-31-2018, 10:29 PM
take a look at my post in this thread :)

Looks like I was late to the party!

Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 10:35 PM
As others have said, if we're talking peak Curry would be at or near #2 all-time, but if we're talking career/accolades Curry would be... at or near #2 all-time...

Seriously, the list of PGs who have won multiple MVPs and led their teams to multiple championships is:

Magic
Cousy
Curry

That's it. And once he makes the All-NBA 1st team this season, it will be his 3rd, tying him with CP3, Frazier and Isiah and behind only:

Magic
Big O
Cousy
Kidd


For PGs all-time. The idea that his career isn't as good as others is a little laughable to me. Would you rather have multiple MVPs, multiple championships or would you rather play longer and not win MVPs or Championships? Seems like a very easy choice to me.Curry could be the point guard for the vast majority of NBA teams and have zero titles. I'm just saying. People have developed this absurd notion that he is the reason for Golden States dominance instead of being one very good piece of many. Even if he's the best piece. He's honestly become the most overrated player in the game. Steve Nash level overrated. Take away either Green or Thompson and he still has a great team but very likely 0 titles. This is why titles are a pointless distinction because they lead to madness like this.

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tredigs
01-31-2018, 11:20 PM
Curry could be the point guard for the vast majority of NBA teams and have zero titles. I'm just saying. People have developed this absurd notion that he is the reason for Golden States dominance instead of being one very good piece of many. Even if he's the best piece. He's honestly become the most overrated player in the game. Steve Nash level overrated. Take away either Green or Thompson and he still has a great team but very likely 0 titles. This is why titles are a pointless distinction because they lead to madness like this.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

It's possible you massively underrate certain players offense, especially as it relates to team dominance when they're on the court, and massively overrate ISO guard defense.

Jamiecballer
01-31-2018, 11:37 PM
It's possible you massively underrate certain players offense, especially as it relates to team dominance when they're on the court, and massively overrate ISO guard defense.Possible, but not likely. He has 2 MVP's and 2 titles more than he'd have playing for the Detroit Pistons. Not that he wouldn't still be a great player of course. But he's either hugely overrated or his teammates are not as good as people would have you believe; either way I'd like to see him achieve something outside the stacked environment he has had for the vast majority of his career to call him anything near a top ten all-time player, or for him to step up his playmaking skills because he isn't even the best on his team in that regard.

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valade16
01-31-2018, 11:50 PM
Curry could be the point guard for the vast majority of NBA teams and have zero titles. I'm just saying. People have developed this absurd notion that he is the reason for Golden States dominance instead of being one very good piece of many. Even if he's the best piece. He's honestly become the most overrated player in the game. Steve Nash level overrated. Take away either Green or Thompson and he still has a great team but very likely 0 titles. This is why titles are a pointless distinction because they lead to madness like this.

And we could say that for quite literally every player in NBA history so that's a fairly meaningless point, especially when achievements are part of the criteria. I'm not going to dismiss Curry's titles simply because every player ever, could have 0 titles if they were in different circumstances.

Even if we want to go that route and simply dismiss his titles as a byproduct of his amazing team and focus completely on the numbers and his talent, how many PGs can we actually say are flat out better than him? That number is again an incredibly small amount.

Romeo Naes
02-01-2018, 12:19 AM
West is viewed by most as a 2, not a 1. I don't think he belongs on this list.

I agree.

tredigs
02-01-2018, 01:30 AM
Possible, but not likely. He has 2 MVP's and 2 titles more than he'd have playing for the Detroit Pistons. Not that he wouldn't still be a great player of course. But he's either hugely overrated or his teammates are not as good as people would have you believe; either way I'd like to see him achieve something outside the stacked environment he has had for the vast majority of his career to call him anything near a top ten all-time player, or for him to step up his playmaking skills because he isn't even the best on his team in that regard.

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I think you'd be shocked what Curry would do on a team where he had even more of a green light offensively at the level he's been playing at the past half decade or so (he has it, but he won't often use it within that offensive framework and with his current cast, he passes a bit too much). It's tough to imagine how you can see him do what he does even with defenders flying every which way at him and imagine otherwise. As to the playmaking comment, that's simply a joke Jaime. I have to imagine you don't actually watch much Warriors basketball if you truly think there's even a close 2nd as a playmaker on the team. Don't be fooled by assist totals, that's not how this offense operates (the 2-3 pass hockey assists that stem originally from Curry's gravity are the majority of the playmaking for the team, regardless of who is actually credited with the assist).

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 03:21 AM
As others have said, if we're talking peak Curry would be at or near #2 all-time, but if we're talking career/accolades Curry would be... at or near #2 all-time...

Seriously, the list of PGs who have won multiple MVPs and led their teams to multiple championships is:

Magic
Cousy
Curry

That's it. And once he makes the All-NBA 1st team this season, it will be his 3rd, tying him with CP3, Frazier and Isiah and behind only:

Magic
Big O
Cousy
Kidd


For PGs all-time. The idea that his career isn't as good as others is a little laughable to me. Would you rather have multiple MVPs, multiple championships or would you rather play longer and not win MVPs or Championships? Seems like a very easy choice to me.

Must be nice.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 03:22 AM
I agree.

Completely disagree, West was 100% a Combo guard, definitely a SG/PG.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 03:44 AM
Depends on what your definition of "point guard" is tbh.. Based on the examples you've given, it seems like you consider a point guard as a player that doesn't score as many points but averages high assist numbers.. Well, yes, Jerry west was a very good scorer, but he was also a very good passer.. He always averaged far more assists than his back court mate, Gail Goodrich. In fact, there was a few years that Goodrich averaged more points than west while Jerry west lead the league in assists.

So if fans want to say that Jerry west wasn't a point guard, well then I guess those same fans can say that those laker teams didn't have a point guard, because for the same reasons that they say Jerry west wasn't a point guard they also would say that Goodrich wasn't a point guard either.. Jerry west just so happened to be the player that ran the offense, the main facilitator, the main playmaker (which is what point guards do).. So if west wasn't the point guard, then nobody was.

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Like I said, back then there was no designated PG/SG role - just "Guard." If you take his numbers, it resembles a SG and not a PG. Same with Curry but the issue is Curry was too small to play SG so his natural position would have to be PG. There is no shortage of legendary PG's. Go down the list:

Magic
Kidd
Nash
Stockton
CP3
Payton

Not many of these guys are natural scorers. The exceptions are the ones today in which the SG/PG roles are basically interchangeable because three point shooting/small ball have made it a guard's game. If West was playing today, he would be a combo-guard. But no one would ever mistake Magic/Kidd/Nash/Stockton/CP3/Payton as combo-guards. So that's why I said if we're going by the definition of a PG, then West was more of a SG.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 03:50 AM
lolz. Flash is 24 y old.

FlashBolt
02-01-2018, 04:06 AM
lolz. Flash is 24 y old.

You type like a 14 year old, lolz. But don't respond to my post because you clearly don't have anything credible to say. Much like your Kobe arguments where really, "I watched Kobe. He teh best." Good argument, bud. That's why Kobe will always, in many NBA forums, be ranked lower than he should. Cause Kobe fans can't debate. Anything.

GREATNESS ONE
02-01-2018, 04:19 AM
:) anyone come close to 5 yet?

jaydubb
02-01-2018, 06:19 AM
Like I said, back then there was no designated PG/SG role - just "Guard." If you take his numbers, it resembles a SG and not a PG. Same with Curry but the issue is Curry was too small to play SG so his natural position would have to be PG. There is no shortage of legendary PG's. Go down the list:

Magic
Kidd
Nash
Stockton
CP3
Payton

Not many of these guys are natural scorers. The exceptions are the ones today in which the SG/PG roles are basically interchangeable because three point shooting/small ball have made it a guard's game. If West was playing today, he would be a combo-guard. But no one would ever mistake Magic/Kidd/Nash/Stockton/CP3/Payton as combo-guards. So that's why I said if we're going by the definition of a PG, then West was more of a SG.Then why is Oscar robertson considered a point guard? I mean, I know why I'd consider him one (and I do consider him a point guard) but I want to hear your reasoning behind saying that "the big o" was a point guard and Jerry west was a shooting guard when you say back then there was no designated SG and PG. They both played the exact same years in the nba. They both were drafted in 1960 and both retired after the 1973 season. They both have similar stats across the board, though Oscar robertson was much taller than Jerry west but west had much better defensive numbers. Oscar robertson was a better scorer at the beginning of his career and he fell off stat wise across the board as his career progressed whereas Jerry west didn't regress too much in scoring, but his assists climbed quite a bit as his career progressed (even lead the league in assists a couple times at the end of his career).

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KingPosey
02-01-2018, 06:39 AM
Westbrook is a clearly better than Payton. GP was great, and a generational defensive player, but Russell Westbrook does more on the court than the Glove. The NBA is more talented today than it has ever been at any point. Players today are better.

Lebron, Durant, Curry, CP3, Harden, Westbrook, and Anthony Davis are all already "all-time greats", as well as players who are on the downturn in Wade and Melo. Guys like Kawhi, Giannis, KAT, Porzingis, and Ben Simmons are on their way too.
then why do you have any past era PGs over anyone contemporary on your list? Your own argument invalidates your list.

KingPosey
02-01-2018, 06:41 AM
I must say I have such a hard time rating Stockton. he is the ultimate longevity guy in these discussions. I wonder how he would play in todays game. he was a very good 3pt shooter, but they didn't value 3's back then.

Personally I think he'd be amazing still. I know hot take right lol? Imagine the numbers he'd have on a Mike D offense. It would be fun.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2018, 11:01 AM
And we could say that for quite literally every player in NBA history so that's a fairly meaningless point, especially when achievements are part of the criteria. I'm not going to dismiss Curry's titles simply because every player ever, could have 0 titles if they were in different circumstances.

Even if we want to go that route and simply dismiss his titles as a byproduct of his amazing team and focus completely on the numbers and his talent, how many PGs can we actually say are flat out better than him? That number is again an incredibly small amount.

sure, i agree with what you bolded. but i literally just saw a post not very long ago saying something to the effect of who would you rather have, a great player for a long time with no titles or a two time mvp with two titles. my point is simply i don't think he has either if he's not in a superb situation. so it's relevant. he isn't jordan. he isn't lebron. championships are not going to follow him wherever he chooses to go IMO.

Jamiecballer
02-01-2018, 11:04 AM
I think you'd be shocked what Curry would do on a team where he had even more of a green light offensively at the level he's been playing at the past half decade or so (he has it, but he won't often use it within that offensive framework and with his current cast, he passes a bit too much). It's tough to imagine how you can see him do what he does even with defenders flying every which way at him and imagine otherwise. As to the playmaking comment, that's simply a joke Jaime. I have to imagine you don't actually watch much Warriors basketball if you truly think there's even a close 2nd as a playmaker on the team. Don't be fooled by assist totals, that's not how this offense operates (the 2-3 pass hockey assists that stem originally from Curry's gravity are the majority of the playmaking for the team, regardless of who is actually credited with the assist).

that's the thing. maybe i would be shocked, but we don't give that benefit of the doubt to other superstars, ever. so why should we with Steph? nobody is giving Durant the benefit of the doubt anymore, even though Durant seems to be peaking and people are catching on to the fact that Westbrook is not so great at playing with restraint, not a great quality in a number 2.

as a side note - i will watch more GS games to see if anything i see changes my opinion. i'm not above changing my opinion, it's a sign of intelligence to reconsider what you think you know when new input warrants it.

side note number 2: i'm not sure i'm buying the value you seem to attach to the hockey assist. what exactly does it tell us? besides the obvious, that he makes the last pass before someone else passes and gets the assist. the ball movement is so sharp, so far ahead of the rest of the league, it would be a surprise if Curry didn't easily lead the league in the first place since he is most often the person who brings up the court and golden state passes with such intent that a good shot usually presents itself fairly quickly. i'm not dismissing your point about gravity, just the significance of the "hockey assist". if the person receiving his pass doesn't make a good decision, as is often the case around the league, it's a nothing.

KnicksorBust
02-01-2018, 03:14 PM
I'm gonna give this list a couple qualifiers

Best Careers
1. Magic Johnson (5 rings, 3 MVP, 3 FMVP, 10 All-NBA) - (#5 All-time for Assists)
2. Stephen Curry (2 rings, 2 MVP, 4 All-NBA)
3. Oscar Robertson (1 ring, 1 MVP, 11 All-NBA) - (#6 All-time for Assists)
4. Bob Cousy (6 rings, 1 MVP, 12 All-NBA) - (#17 All-time for Assists)
5. Steve Nash (2 MVP, 7 All-NBA) - (#3 All-time for Assists)
6. Isiah Thomas (2 rings, 1 FMVP, 5 All-NBA) - (#7 All-time for Assists)
7. Walt Frazier (2 rings, 6 All-NBA, 7 All-D)
8. John Stockton (11 All-NBA, 5 All-D) - (#1 All-time for Assists)
9. Gary Payton (1 ring, 1 DPOY, 9 All-NBA, 9 All-D) - (#8 All-time for Assists)
10. Jason Kidd (1 ring, 6 All-NBA, 9 All-D) - (#2 All-time for Assists)
11. Chris Paul (8 All-NBA, 9 All-D) - (#10 All-time for Assists)



Best Player (Career)
1. Magic Johnson
2. Stephen Curry
3. Oscar Robertson
4. John Stockton
5. Walt Frazier
6. Chris Paul
7. Gary Payton
8. Steve Nash
9. Jason Kidd
10. Isiah Thomas
_________________________________________________
11. Probably Not Bob Cousy



Best Player (Prime/Peak Production)
1. Stephen Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Magic Johnson
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Gary Payton
6. John Stockton
7. Steve Nash
8. Walt Frazier
9. Russell Westbrook
10. Jason Kidd



May be royally ****ing something up, but my mind is kinda numb at the moment

By careers I feel like it's pretty easy to argue Cousy > Curry.

Shammyguy3
02-01-2018, 06:48 PM
By careers I feel like it's pretty easy to argue Cousy > Curry.

I guess that depends how much you credit Cousy for being a Celtic on those dominating teams. Are you putting him over Curry because he currently has 4 more rings (likely only 3 more come June)? Or is it the All-NBA teams? Because honestly, who was Cousy competing against for All-NBA teams in the mid and late 1950s? Isn't Curry's All-NBA teams more impressive playing in the same league as Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, John Wall, Kyle Lowry, Damian Lillard, Jimmy Butler, etc?

YAALREADYKNO
02-07-2018, 11:51 PM
Magic
Oscar
Thomas
Stockton
Kidd
Curry
Nash
Paul
Westbrook
Payton