PDA

View Full Version : LeBron is Dead Last in Player Defensive Efficiency Rating



LaVar Ball
01-20-2018, 11:39 PM
https://www.si.com/nba/2018/01/20/cleveland-cavaliers-defense-joke-eastern-conference-no-more-excuses


It's not necessarily in this article, but I just saw an instagram post of it (if someone could post it, I don't know how).

LOb0
01-21-2018, 12:18 AM
Defense is usually the first thing to start going due to age, or more likely he's just pacing the ******* out of himself due to the meaningless regular season.

jaydubb
01-21-2018, 01:16 AM
I think the stat is for players that play at least 30 minutes per game in which, yes, LeBron James is dead last. His teammate Jr smith is worse but he only averages 29.8 minutes per game. (LeBron is currently at #436 regardless of minutes played)

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

lol, please
01-21-2018, 01:18 AM
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/dgbg.gif

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

jaydubb
01-21-2018, 01:19 AM
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/dgbg.gif

Sent from my Note 8 using TapatalkSmooth.. Very smooth

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Raps08-09 Champ
01-21-2018, 02:11 AM
It's pretty obvious he doesn't try.

He looks like he has that mentality that if no one else on the team will play defense, why should he?

LaVar Ball
01-21-2018, 03:14 AM
It's pretty obvious he doesn't try.

He looks like he has that mentality that if no one else on the team will play defense, why should he?

Thats why he's the leading vote getter of the game where zero defense is played.... THE ALL STAR GAME!!!

Chronz
01-21-2018, 03:34 AM
It's pretty obvious he doesn't try.

He looks like he has that mentality that if no one else on the team will play defense, why should he?
Well when he was leading the charge and defending with purpose, the entire team did as well. Maybe it was too taxing on him given the load he was carrying but the team needs more defensive pieces around him.

ewing
01-21-2018, 07:39 AM
the Cavs defense sucks, so does this stat

Jamiecballer
01-21-2018, 10:20 AM
the Cavs defense sucks, so does this statYes, this.

It's just a bad troll job. If you follow the link James is at the top of page 2. Meanwhile half his teamates are on the first page lol.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Scoots
01-21-2018, 10:57 AM
Yes, this.

It's just a bad troll job. If you follow the link James is at the top of page 2. Meanwhile half his teamates are on the first page lol.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*30&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

I'm shocked, but it's true. He's dead last of players playing at least 30 minutes per game.

Bostonjorge
01-21-2018, 02:10 PM
Wow Iím shocked. Not at James defensive ranking but how some try to justify it.

aman_13
01-21-2018, 02:45 PM
Well that will happen when the Cavs as a whole are putting out the red carpet for everyone. This stat is highly skewed

Scoots
01-21-2018, 02:48 PM
Well that will happen when the Cavs as a whole are putting out the red carpet for everyone. This stat is highly skewed

You mean is skewed by how bad the Cavs are on D? Because that's definitely true. But LeBron being last is also surprising.

aman_13
01-21-2018, 03:01 PM
You mean is skewed by how bad the Cavs are on D? Because that's definitely true. But LeBron being last is also surprising.

Also keep in mind LeBron is third in minutes played.

Bostonjorge
01-21-2018, 03:53 PM
Also keep in mind LeBron is third in minutes played.
So Lebron is terrible at defense longer then everyone in the league?

aman_13
01-21-2018, 03:56 PM
So Lebron is terrible at defense longer then everyone in the league?

He's playing in more lineup combinations than almost every player in the league. Every lineup doesn't defend, poor defenders all around so his numbers will look really bad.

Basically this stat is flawed, like most defensive measures,

Vee-Rex
01-21-2018, 05:32 PM
DRtg for individual players is probably one of the most flawed stats out there.

Jamiecballer
01-21-2018, 06:40 PM
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*30&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

I'm shocked, but it's true. He's dead last of players playing at least 30 minutes per game.Right, but if you remove the meaningless distinction of > 30mpg you will find a third of his rotation mates have a worse #.

In other words the roster is so damn bad at defense that it is dragging his #' s down

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Scoots
01-21-2018, 06:56 PM
He's playing in more lineup combinations than almost every player in the league. Every lineup doesn't defend, poor defenders all around so his numbers will look really bad.

Basically this stat is flawed, like most defensive measures,

I actually wonder who has been in the most different lineups. I'd expect it to be a Warrior just because they've used 17 players and they play a lot of them regularly and they've had all of their starters miss multiple games.

All stats are flawed ... but they still mean something.

Scoots
01-21-2018, 07:00 PM
Right, but if you remove the meaningless distinction of > 30mpg you will find a third of his rotation mates have a worse #.

In other words the roster is so damn bad at defense that it is dragging his #' s down

> 30 minutes isn't meaningless ... it's just nearly meaningless :)

Generally the top players in the NBA are > 30 minutes ... so > 30 minutes tells you the stats for the best players on the teams.

Hustla23
01-21-2018, 08:22 PM
DRtg for individual players is probably one of the most flawed stats out there.

No such thing as a "flawed stat."

When James is on the floor, the other team happens to score at a particular rate that places him dead last of players who play 30 mpg or more.

But there are flawed interpretations. Most people can deduce that the circumstantial nature of the stat generally precludes interpretations that allude to Lebron being a bad defender.

Vee-Rex
01-21-2018, 08:35 PM
No such thing as a "flawed stat."

When James is on the floor, the other team happens to score at a particular rate that places him dead last of players who play 30 mpg or more.

But there are flawed interpretations. Most people can deduce that the circumstantial nature of the stat generally precludes interpretations that allude to Lebron being a bad defender.

Semantics.

By flawed, most mean "meaningless".

JordansBulls
01-21-2018, 10:23 PM
His defense generally has always been suspect. I mean the last 3 times he has lost in the finals was against players who won finals at his position.

Scoots
01-21-2018, 10:41 PM
Semantics.

By flawed, most mean "meaningless".

But it's not meaningless, it's just not simple.

If people want to jump to conclusions that are not supported by the stat it's not the stat's fault.

koreancabbage
01-22-2018, 12:07 PM
So Lebron is terrible at defense longer then everyone in the league?

i'll entertain you since no one really cares what you think - i think most have blocked you anyways - stop with the troll job.

IndyRealist
01-22-2018, 12:16 PM
Semantics.

By flawed, most mean "meaningless".

It is neither flawed nor meaningless. It simply doesn't say what people think it says. That's not the fault of the stat, that is the fault of the person using it without taking the time to understand what they are looking at.

KnicksorBust
01-22-2018, 02:03 PM
It's pretty obvious he doesn't try.

He looks like he has that mentality that if no one else on the team will play defense, why should he?

I feel like I've seen him take a lot more plays off than in years past. That's a big part of the problem. Leader gotta buy in first.

valade16
01-22-2018, 02:39 PM
The top 5 players on the Cavs in MPG besides LeBron are:

J.R. Smith
Kevin Love
Jae Crowder
Derrick Rose
Isaiah Thomas

Here are the highest Drtg's on the Cav's this season:

Isaiah Thomas 119.0
Derrick Rose 117.6
J.R. Smith 112.6
Kevin Love 112.5
Jae Crowder 112.5

LeBron James 112.0

So basically this stat is telling us the Cavs are terrible defensively and that of the top 7 players on the Cavs by MPG, LeBron is apparently playing the best D out of all of them.


LeBron probably is not playing very well on defense. His teammates stink and he generally doesn't try on that end at this point in the season. I am not shocked the numbers reflect he is not playing well defensively because he isn't playing well. But people seem to be confusing how well LeBron is playing with how well LeBron is, which are different things.

Vee-Rex
01-22-2018, 03:17 PM
It is neither flawed nor meaningless. It simply doesn't say what people think it says. That's not the fault of the stat, that is the fault of the person using it without taking the time to understand what they are looking at.

Give me a context/situation in which DRtg for an individual player is meaningful.

Vee-Rex
01-22-2018, 03:21 PM
The top 5 players on the Cavs in MPG besides LeBron are:

J.R. Smith
Kevin Love
Jae Crowder
Derrick Rose
Isaiah Thomas

Here are the highest Drtg's on the Cav's this season:

Isaiah Thomas 119.0
Derrick Rose 117.6
J.R. Smith 112.6
Kevin Love 112.5
Jae Crowder 112.5

LeBron James 112.0

So basically this stat is telling us the Cavs are terrible defensively and that of the top 7 players on the Cavs by MPG, LeBron is apparently playing the best D out of all of them.


LeBron probably is not playing very well on defense. His teammates stink and he generally doesn't try on that end at this point in the season. I am not shocked the numbers reflect he is not playing well defensively because he isn't playing well. But people seem to be confusing how well LeBron is playing with how well LeBron is, which are different things.

That's all it's saying, which is something that could easily be gathered using common sense.

1. Cavs are playing horrible defense for two reasons: poor defensive skills and lack of effort

2. LeBron, being on that defensive team, is gonna have it reflected on his DRtg. Considering that he plays the most minutes on the team AND he plays those minutes with the worst defensive players on the team, it goes without saying that his DRtg will be EXTREMELY bad.

That does not, in any way, shape, or form, mean LeBron is the worst defensive player in the league. Only idiots would see that stat and draw that conclusion. He's playing badly due to several reasons.

/end thread

Scoots
01-22-2018, 04:54 PM
That does not, in any way, shape, or form, mean LeBron is the worst defensive player in the league. Only idiots would see that stat and draw that conclusion. He's playing badly due to several reasons.

/end thread

So here is the problem ... the only people jumping to that conclusion were LeBron/Cavs fans such as yourself jumping in to defend him. I didn't see anybody else say anything like that.

IndyRealist
01-22-2018, 04:57 PM
Give me a context/situation in which DRtg for an individual player is meaningful.

Look at the post directly above yours. You don't think it's meaningful because it doesn't say what you want it to say, i.e. what is an individual's impact on defense separate from his teammates.

All unweighted stats simply say what happened. It's the reader's job to understand what the stat is saying.

Vee-Rex
01-22-2018, 05:24 PM
So here is the problem ... the only people jumping to that conclusion were LeBron/Cavs fans such as yourself jumping in to defend him. I didn't see anybody else say anything like that.

I think most people are like... "Yeah, duh. No surprise."

And when someone like you pop in and say, "It's still surprising."

It comes across as if you're trying to imply something.

Call it a break down in communications over the intarwebs, but when something pretty much goes without saying then... it goes without saying. It's no shock/surprise at all to most people and anyone who is implying that it's "astonishing" or whatever don't seem to have a full grasp on what the stat says.

The thread title isn't "Cavs players are dead last in DRtg."

The thread title is "LeBron is Dead Last in DRtg."

There are implications in the title of the thread alone.

Does that make sense?

Vee-Rex
01-22-2018, 05:29 PM
Look at the post directly above yours. You don't think it's meaningful because it doesn't say what you want it to say, i.e. what is an individual's impact on defense separate from his teammates.

All unweighted stats simply say what happened. It's the reader's job to understand what the stat is saying.

Again, give me any context or situation in which DRtg is meaningful. Guess what? You can't. No matter how much you want to spin it into what "I want" or not. It's a meaningless stat. The only time it can ever possibly be meaningful is for someone who doesn't care about separating an individual's defense from his teammates.

But the title of the thread isn't "Cavs players are dead last in DRtg."

The title is "LeBron is Dead Last in DRtg."

I don't see the meaning in a stat that says, "This stat shows that the grass is green."

IndyRealist
01-22-2018, 06:03 PM
Again, give me any context or situation in which DRtg is meaningful. Guess what? You can't. No matter how much you want to spin it into what "I want" or not. It's a meaningless stat. The only time it can ever possibly be meaningful is for someone who doesn't care about separating an individual's defense from his teammates.

But the title of the thread isn't "Cavs players are dead last in DRtg."

The title is "LeBron is Dead Last in DRtg."

I don't see the meaning in a stat that says, "This stat shows that the grass is green."

Lebron is better than the other Cavs playing major minutes. That suggests the the issue is not primarily Lebron, but rather the slow, old, offensively oriented team they put around him. Huh, look at that. Add a little context and it makes perfect sense.

All stats have meaning, just not the one you are looking for. You made assumptions about what it's supposed to say, then call it meaningless when it doesn't say that. Unweighted stats are FACTS. They happened.

Wtf does the thread title have to do with anything? That's one person's opinion on what they think is important.

Btw, his current DRtg is 109, best on the team and the only Cav below 110 with a positive net Rtg besides Love.

Vee-Rex
01-22-2018, 06:23 PM
Lebron is better than the other Cavs playing major minutes. That suggests the the issue is not primarily Lebron, but rather the slow, old, offensively oriented team they put around him. Huh, look at that. Add a little context and it makes perfect sense.

All stats have meaning, just not the one you are looking for. You made assumptions about what it's supposed to say, then call it meaningless when it doesn't say that. Unweighted stats are FACTS. They happened.

Wtf does the thread title have to do with anything? That's one person's opinion on what they think is important.

Btw, his current DRtg is 109, best on the team and the only Cav below 110 with a positive net Rtg besides Love.

Indy, you're trying to apply meaning to something that has no meaning.

Here's the definition of Defensive Rating:

Defensive rating is a statistic used in basketball to measure an individual player's efficiency at preventing the other team from scoring points.

DRtg's entire purpose is to try to measure an individual's defense, to which it has been universally regarded as "meaningless". Just because it is a stat that exists and shows something "happened" doesn't mean it has any use/meaning.

A stat that can only say, "Here is what happened." is meaningless in every context, because there are other simpler and less convoluted methods to come to that conclusion.

In fact, that's the very scholarly definition of data. Raw data has no meaning - it only says, "This is what happened. This exists or has existed." Statistics, on the other hand, especially at the professional level attempt to provide an interpretation and summary of data. That's the very definition of statistics.

DRtg for individuals, as a result, is meaningless because:

1. Separating it from teammates is impossible based on the formula (which creates a paradoxical nature: how can you have DRtg for INDIVIDUALS when it's based on performance from a team?)

2. There are already exists DRtg/ORtg for TEAMS, which does a terrific job at interpreting how well a team is doing.

Dean Oliver created DRtg and the stat has been universally regarded as meaningless for precisely the reasons stated above. He has a book called Basketball on Paper in which he tries to justify DRtg as a usable statistic for rating an individual's defense. He didn't create it with the intention of having it used as "raw data", but rather tried to give it meaning. It's SUPPOSED to rate an individual's defense - that's not just my assumption or interpretation. And it fails.

There is a reason why you or anyone else cannot find a single use for it other than, "LeBron and his teammates aren't playing well defensively." To which I say, "Duh."

IndyRealist
01-22-2018, 06:33 PM
Indy, you're trying to apply meaning to something that has no meaning.

Here's the definition of Defensive Rating:

Defensive rating is a statistic used in basketball to measure an individual player's efficiency at preventing the other team from scoring points.

DRtg's entire purpose is to try to measure an individual's defense, to which it has been universally regarded as "meaningless". Just because it is a stat that exists and shows something "happened" doesn't mean it has any use/meaning.

A stat that can only say, "Here is what happened." is meaningless in every context, because there are other simpler and less convoluted methods to come to that conclusion.

In fact, that's the very scholarly definition of data. Raw data has no meaning - it only says, "This is what happened. This exists or has existed." Statistics, on the other hand, especially at the professional level attempt to provide an interpretation and summary of data. That's the very definition of statistics.

DRtg for individuals, as a result, is meaningless because:

1. Separating it from teammates is impossible based on the formula (which creates a paradoxical nature: how can you have DRtg for INDIVIDUALS when it's based on performance from a team?)

2. There are already exists DRtg/ORtg for TEAMS, which does a terrific job at interpreting how well a team is doing.

Dean Oliver created DRtg and the stat has been universally regarded as meaningless for precisely the reasons stated above. He has a book called Basketball on Paper in which he tries to justify DRtg as a usable statistic for rating an individual's defense. He didn't create it with the intention of having it used as "raw data", but rather tried to give it meaning. It's SUPPOSED to rate an individual's defense - that's not just my assumption or interpretation. And it fails.

There is a reason why you or anyone else cannot find a single use for it other than, "LeBron and his teammates aren't playing well defensively." To which I say, "Duh."

You're right. I stand corrected.

Scoots
01-22-2018, 07:30 PM
I think most people are like... "Yeah, duh. No surprise."

And when someone like you pop in and say, "It's still surprising."

It comes across as if you're trying to imply something.

Call it a break down in communications over the intarwebs, but when something pretty much goes without saying then... it goes without saying. It's no shock/surprise at all to most people and anyone who is implying that it's "astonishing" or whatever don't seem to have a full grasp on what the stat says.

The thread title isn't "Cavs players are dead last in DRtg."

The thread title is "LeBron is Dead Last in DRtg."

There are implications in the title of the thread alone.

Does that make sense?

I get what you are saying but you are jumping to conclusions that nobody else has stated.

And what I find surprising is that while I knew the Cavs were a bad defensive team I didn't expect LeBron to be last. He can be a good individual defender and a team defender. Saying I'm surprised is not a condemnation of LeBron, it literally just means that it surprised me.

Chronz
01-22-2018, 08:46 PM
Indy, you're trying to apply meaning to something that has no meaning.

Here's the definition of Defensive Rating:

Defensive rating is a statistic used in basketball to measure an individual player's efficiency at preventing the other team from scoring points.

DRtg's entire purpose is to try to measure an individual's defense, to which it has been universally regarded as "meaningless". Just because it is a stat that exists and shows something "happened" doesn't mean it has any use/meaning.

A stat that can only say, "Here is what happened." is meaningless in every context, because there are other simpler and less convoluted methods to come to that conclusion.

In fact, that's the very scholarly definition of data. Raw data has no meaning - it only says, "This is what happened. This exists or has existed." Statistics, on the other hand, especially at the professional level attempt to provide an interpretation and summary of data. That's the very definition of statistics.

DRtg for individuals, as a result, is meaningless because:

1. Separating it from teammates is impossible based on the formula (which creates a paradoxical nature: how can you have DRtg for INDIVIDUALS when it's based on performance from a team?)

2. There are already exists DRtg/ORtg for TEAMS, which does a terrific job at interpreting how well a team is doing.

Dean Oliver created DRtg and the stat has been universally regarded as meaningless for precisely the reasons stated above. He has a book called Basketball on Paper in which he tries to justify DRtg as a usable statistic for rating an individual's defense. He didn't create it with the intention of having it used as "raw data", but rather tried to give it meaning. It's SUPPOSED to rate an individual's defense - that's not just my assumption or interpretation. And it fails.

There is a reason why you or anyone else cannot find a single use for it other than, "LeBron and his teammates aren't playing well defensively." To which I say, "Duh."
The Stats say duh too, only they enhance the argument beyond duh

Raps08-09 Champ
01-22-2018, 09:34 PM
Well when he was leading the charge and defending with purpose, the entire team did as well. Maybe it was too taxing on him given the load he was carrying but the team needs more defensive pieces around him.

I don't want to say I don't blame him for not trying, but it seems like everyone else on that team has no clue what they are doing, so it's hard to do what you do.