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View Full Version : Is KP the most overrated player in the league?



ewing
01-15-2018, 02:57 PM
Iím serious. The guy is a mess right now and for the 3 straight seasons he opened well and then fell off a cliff. I still think he has star potential and may have a higher ceiling then any of the the other young bigs. That said he just isnít in league of other young bigs we compare him to right now. What are your thought on kp right now and where he will wind up?


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Jets012
01-15-2018, 02:59 PM
He's up there

warfelg
01-15-2018, 03:02 PM
I've said it since being drafted...he needs to bulk up a little and play the 5. He keeps getting nicked up playing on the perimeter.

Hawkeye15
01-15-2018, 03:05 PM
Man, at his age/size, it is just going to take some time for him to work it all out. I still have hope he might be a stud down the line.

belikemike23
01-15-2018, 03:08 PM
No, he's the real deal, but I think there is an extra boost from the fact that he's Caucasian. Just like Jeremy Lin, got a major boost from the fact that he was the first Asian-American player to break NBA records.

WaDe03
01-15-2018, 03:25 PM
Nets pick for him?

ewing
01-15-2018, 03:30 PM
Nets pick for him?

No thanks. I donít want to trade him I just want him to be able post up Vern Fleming and get a hoop


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WaDe03
01-15-2018, 03:32 PM
No thanks. I donít want to trade him I just want him to be able post up Vern Fleming and get a hoop


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Haha I think he'll be fine. Remember, he's tired lol!

tredigs
01-15-2018, 03:40 PM
He was fantastic to start the year, so you have to figure that he has the All NBA level in him, but yeah he has not been good for a couple months now. And flat out terrible the past month. Hopefully it's something he can figure out because he has a great skill set at that size.

TrueFan420
01-15-2018, 04:25 PM
I imagine it's difficult having to carry the load he does. If the Knicks could get another star player (no Melo wasn't that) with him I think he wouldn't fizzle out as season progresses.

Giannis94
01-15-2018, 04:41 PM
I imagine it's difficult having to carry the load he does. If the Knicks could get another star player (no Melo wasn't that) with him I think he wouldn't fizzle out as season progresses.
I thought the knicks have another star? See below. If said player is a fringey all-star, he has to be a star, no? That's how it works, right?

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?932036-Is-Michael-Beasley-an-All-Star-this-season

Heediot
01-15-2018, 05:35 PM
Big men in general seem to all be over-rated in this new era. They are all better off as complementary guys or guys that can put you over as the number 2 or 1B. The combo of Horford & Milsap only went so far, same with Marc and Zach. Even the combo of a top 10 guy and borderline top 10 guy in AD/Cousins are .500. Jokic and the nuggets are barely over .500. Towns has improved from his slow start, but I think it's Jimmy that's making the most difference in Minny. the young duo of Simmons and Embiid are around .500.

Laker Legend42
01-15-2018, 05:50 PM
I think people should kick back a lil bit on these young guys. Most of the guys are fixated on the scoring aspect of a guys game but there is so much more. Scoring is the easy part of the game. You can find thousands of guys that want to score. There are things kp can do at his size that you just donít find in 7 footers. Here in LA Kyle Kuzma is viewed as the best rookie on the lakers roster. If heís not scoring heís not giving you much of anything else. Guys like kp,lonzo and Ingram. Thereís are plenty more but some of these guys need time to grow into the body they have. If you rush it get ready for a lot of injuries. The rest of these three guys floor game is solid. They do more than score. To me Anthony Davis is a pretty good example of a guy who was rushed to fill out. He seems to get hurt a bunch.the bad thing for really young teams these young guys arenít given the time to develope and grow. Every team is always on the look out for that next. Breakout star and we need you to pop game one of the season.

zn23
01-15-2018, 06:00 PM
He has tremendous potential, but im not sure hes physically or mentally able to handle the pressure of being the no1 guy .

This past few weeks he just looks like a broken down player in his 16th season, which is scary considering hes 22.

Scoots
01-15-2018, 07:17 PM
Iím serious. The guy is a mess right now and for the 3 straight seasons he opened well and then fell off a cliff. I still think he has star potential and may have a higher ceiling then any of the the other young bigs. That said he just isnít in league of other young bigs we compare him to right now. What are your thought on kp right now and where he will wind up?

He needs to adjust and the team needs to adjust to him. He's still growing so he's going to need some time before any conclusions are drawn.

mavwar53
01-15-2018, 07:59 PM
Still Melo, followed by IT.

flea
01-15-2018, 08:07 PM
I don't know I haven't seen much of him lately. His jumper isn't as pure to me as its potential was sold (e.g. Dirk 2.0) so I don't think he's going to be like that. Maybe he's just a complementary big long-term rather than a #1, but he has the potential to be one the best complementary players I would think. I haven't seen enough to comment on his defensive game, just potential, but I agree with others that he needs more strength. 7'3 athlete like him should be more of a problem on the glass than he is.

FlashBolt
01-15-2018, 09:27 PM
Lmao.. I said this when he was cooking up in the regular season and told you guys that this was just a result of KP getting more shots. He hasn't improved at all. He's a very good player but you can't find any improvements in his game worth mentioning. Knicks fans know I was hammering KP in the first month. They said he improved his defense and that his rebounding is hurting because of Kanter. Well, I don't care what the excuse is now.. Fine player but no improvements made.

ewing
01-15-2018, 09:42 PM
Lmao.. I said this when he was cooking up in the regular season and told you guys that this was just a result of KP getting more shots. He hasn't improved at all. He's a very good player but you can't find any improvements in his game worth mentioning. Knicks fans know I was hammering KP in the first month. They said he improved his defense and that his rebounding is hurting because of Kanter. Well, I don't care what the excuse is now.. Fine player but no improvements made.

I disagree. Right now it seems mental for the first time which is concerning. A lot of knick fans seem to think we just need more guard play to set him up but heís not Amare. He definitely can play well when you hit him moving but I think to be the stud we want him to be he has to be able take take advantage of mismatches. He did to start the year. Even when he started missing he was still getting catches in spots he seemed comfortable with and making quick decisions. Now he doesnít seem comfortable at all in those spots. Good game today though


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FlashBolt
01-15-2018, 09:44 PM
I disagree. Right now it seems mental for the first time which is concerning. A lot of knick fans seem to think we just need more guard play to set him up but heís not Amare. He definitely can play well when you hit him moving up I think to be the stud we want him to be he has to be able take take advantage of mismatches. He need to start the year. Even when he started missing he was still getting catches in spots he seemed comfortable with and making quick decisions. Now he doesnít seem comfortable at all in those spots


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So is he getting better or not? It doesn't seem like he's made any drastic improvements. I mean, we're talking about a guy who is consistently placed in the Giannis/KD/Embiid/Simmons/Towns discussion but what is he doing that deserves that attention now? If he needs teammates to set him up still, I'm not sure he is the player we all expected him to be. He should be more than capable of dominating with or without a guard feeding him.

ewing
01-15-2018, 11:50 PM
So is he getting better or not? It doesn't seem like he's made any drastic improvements. I mean, we're talking about a guy who is consistently placed in the Giannis/KD/Embiid/Simmons/Towns discussion but what is he doing that deserves that attention now? If he needs teammates to set him up still, I'm not sure he is the player we all expected him to be. He should be more than capable of dominating with or without a guard feeding him.

Yes I think he is getting better. It concerns that he loses strength as the year goes on and seems to be struggling to embrace his role right now


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metswon69
01-16-2018, 12:43 AM
To be fair, he did go through a stretch where the Knicks 2nd best scorer was Michael Beasley. The Knicks also have subpar guard play to get him the ball in places where he can take high % shots. I don't think he's overrated. I do think he's overhyped though because of where he plays.

D-Leethal
01-16-2018, 12:49 AM
I'd like to see him play off a PnR guard or wing. I think his bread needs to be buttered as a finisher and not a creator. He really does not get any easy buckets right now and that's a product of the guys around him mostly. The fatigue thing worries me though. Guy just runs out of gas. I wonder if he needs to be a 28-30 minute player and a not a 35-37 minute player.

He was so dynamite in the mid post area to start the season and now it looks like he has no clue down there. I've really never seen anything like it. He gets thrown around so much too. It's like he gets weaker and weaker as the season goes on.

But yea, if he was able to roam the perimeter more possessions while a penetrating guard or wing went to work and was creating less for himself inside the arc, I think you should probably see an uptick in his bandwith.

D-Leethal
01-16-2018, 12:56 AM
Phil is everyone's favorite punching bag but I think he may have potentially been on to something when he wanted to trade him for Boston's #1 pick and Brown last offseason.

Phil before KP's rookie year:


ďLike Shawn Bradley, who was nevertheless a pretty good player, [Porzingis] might almost be too tall for the game,Ē Jackson said of the 7-foot-3 prospect. ďWhat I mean is that his core strength might never be good enough, and that he might not be able to get low enough to get himself into prime defensive position to body power rebounders or drivers.Ē

KnicksorBust
01-16-2018, 12:29 PM
MOST overrated player? No.

Overrated player? ... No.

He's a perennial all-star player who could win a league MVP one day. He's just not going to do it with Jarrett Jack at PG. I mean let's be serious here. Maybe if he had Dennis Smith Jr...

mudvayne387
01-16-2018, 12:55 PM
KP's stats over the last 5 games:

24.2 (PPG)
7.8 (RPG)
2.4 (BPG)
48% (3PT)

It's simple, when he relies too much on his jump shot, he is an average player. When he posts up and uses his size, he is an all star. He will figure it out. BTW, he now leads the NBA in blocks.

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 02:54 PM
MOST overrated player? No.

Overrated player? ... No.

He's a perennial all-star player who could win a league MVP one day. He's just not going to do it with Jarrett Jack at PG. I mean let's be serious here. Maybe if he had Dennis Smith Jr...

KP needs to play the 5. He's not a longterm 4 imo. And Frank dropped 10 points/10 assists/7boards/2 blocks and a steal last night while being like a +18 and closing out the game. I'm a DSJ fan but Knicks fans are the most foolishly impatient fanbase I've ever seen.

KnicksorBust
01-16-2018, 03:13 PM
KP needs to play the 5. He's not a longterm 4 imo. And Frank dropped 10 points/10 assists/7boards/2 blocks and a steal last night while being like a +18 and closing out the game. I'm a DSJ fan but Knicks fans are the most foolishly impatient fanbase I've ever seen.

I wanted DSJ before the draft and now DSJ is clearly outplaying Frank. What do you want me to say?

Giannis94
01-16-2018, 03:15 PM
I'm starting to think that WCS was on to something when he said that he could produce at KP's level in a similar situation

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 03:24 PM
I wanted DSJ before the draft and now DSJ is clearly outplaying Frank. What do you want me to say?

That's fine you wanted him, tbh DSJ was at the top of my board as well. In the moment, if I was the Knicks front office, I likely would have taken DSJ over Frank. But I'm questioning that impulse more and more as time passes.

Rookies are rookies. They're literally teenagers, and you can say "now DSJ is outplaying Frank." It's relatively meaningless. What matters is how good these guys are over the next 10-15+ years, that's what drafting is about.

I watch every Knicks game, and admittedly I haven't seen DSJ much outside of when he played the Knicks. He's exactly as advertised - quick, explosive, exciting. Will he have the same impact as Frank over the course of his career in terms of actually helping his team win? I'm not so sure about that. His team couldn't win in college. He's not the defender Frank is, and he never will be anywhere near him on that end. That's just fact.

Frank's one weakness is aggression and going hard into the paint - I don't think he's incapable of that however. He's 19 so it may take a bit for him to figure it out, but he's not unathletic as some people try to make him out to be. He's just tentative at times, but it's honestly not the biggest concern to me. He looks like a future floor general and a player who understands how to win basketball games and makes the other 4 guys around him better. I'm not sure DSJ is that same type of player. Time will tell, but Knicks fans don't have any patience ever which is part of the reason we've seen the trash *** teams we've had for damn near 2 decades.

BoSox47
01-16-2018, 03:54 PM
Nets pick for him?

Would have to give up much more than the Nets pick for him. Right now thats projected to be the 7th/8th pick since brooklyn is in a tie with the Suns. Not sure the Cavs have the assets right now to get KP unless the Cavs are giving up that nets pick and 2 more future first rounders.

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 04:36 PM
Would have to give up much more than the Nets pick for him. Right now thats projected to be the 7th/8th pick since brooklyn is in a tie with the Suns. Not sure the Cavs have the assets right now to get KP unless the Cavs are giving up that nets pick and 2 more future first rounders.

KP's not getting traded. We're building around him. This thread is a bit laughable. He's not a superstar imo but he's also 22. Give the guy 2-3 years to see what he looks like as he enters his prime. He's a 2 way impact player already, we just need to get him some help. At least we have all our picks finally.

dyst
01-16-2018, 05:01 PM
I don't know, to me over-rated is someone like Draymond Green. Guy gets praised like crazy because of his leadership, when all he does is yell and his stats, when no one has to ****ing guard him with 3 dudes who can sway an entire defense their way. KP, on the other end, is putting up what he's putting up on a crappy team when it's just him.

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 05:14 PM
I don't know, to me over-rated is someone like Draymond Green. Guy gets praised like crazy because of his leadership, when all he does is yell and his stats, when no one has to ****ing guard him with 3 dudes who can sway an entire defense their way. KP, on the other end, is putting up what he's putting up on a crappy team when it's just him.

Also itís his first year as the #1 guy on the team and heís been missing Hardaway for over half the season. Defenses are basically completely focused on him every single game, which Iím sure takes getting used to.

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:57 PM
Sadly you have to choose between durability and ability. At his height, he needs those Yao like tree trunk legs to hold position

hughest4
01-16-2018, 07:18 PM
KP is struggling, but not overrated. Love watching the kid play. He has so much potential, especially if the Knicks continue to put good pieces around him.


I don't know, to me over-rated is someone like Draymond Green. Guy gets praised like crazy because of his leadership, when all he does is yell and his stats, when no one has to ****ing guard him with 3 dudes who can sway an entire defense their way. KP, on the other end, is putting up what he's putting up on a crappy team when it's just him.

Dray definitely is not overrated. Excellent defensive player, good distributor/rebounder, and he brings a ton of leadership/energy to the court.

D-Leethal
01-16-2018, 07:50 PM
KP's not getting traded. We're building around him. This thread is a bit laughable. He's not a superstar imo but he's also 22. Give the guy 2-3 years to see what he looks like as he enters his prime. He's a 2 way impact player already, we just need to get him some help. At least we have all our picks finally.

I think it's a fair thread. It seems the Nat'l media still talks about him like he's playing November-level ball when the truth is he has been mediocre to poor for 20-30 games now. Hardaway looks like he will help though.

KnicksorBust
01-16-2018, 08:10 PM
I wanted DSJ before the draft and now DSJ is clearly outplaying Frank. What do you want me to say?

That's fine you wanted him, tbh DSJ was at the top of my board as well. In the moment, if I was the Knicks front office, I likely would have taken DSJ over Frank. But I'm questioning that impulse more and more as time passes.

Rookies are rookies. They're literally teenagers, and you can say "now DSJ is outplaying Frank." It's relatively meaningless. What matters is how good these guys are over the next 10-15+ years, that's what drafting is about.

I watch every Knicks game, and admittedly I haven't seen DSJ much outside of when he played the Knicks. He's exactly as advertised - quick, explosive, exciting. Will he have the same impact as Frank over the course of his career in terms of actually helping his team win? I'm not so sure about that. His team couldn't win in college. He's not the defender Frank is, and he never will be anywhere near him on that end. That's just fact.

Frank's one weakness is aggression and going hard into the paint - I don't think he's incapable of that however. He's 19 so it may take a bit for him to figure it out, but he's not unathletic as some people try to make him out to be. He's just tentative at times, but it's honestly not the biggest concern to me. He looks like a future floor general and a player who understands how to win basketball games and makes the other 4 guys around him better. I'm not sure DSJ is that same type of player. Time will tell, but Knicks fans don't have any patience ever which is part of the reason we've seen the trash *** teams we've had for damn near 2 decades.

Dsj could be a star. Frank isnt. Why are we drafting low ceiling defensive role players?

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 08:21 PM
I think it's a fair thread. It seems the Nat'l media still talks about him like he's playing November-level ball when the truth is he has been mediocre to poor for 20-30 games now. Hardaway looks like he will help though.

Fair enough; I don't really follow national sports media so I don't really know what they're saying about X player day to day. I don't personally think of KP as a top 10 player in the league yet so I don't necessarily think of him as "overrated." I think he's a young player in year 3 who's adjusting to being "the guy" on a team. He impacts the game on both ends of the floor and I think he's a guy you can build around. I can't ask for much more than that.

Do I think he'll be a superstar superstar who can carry a team on his back through the playoffs and into championship contention? Who knows, time will tell. I don't count on that with him though - I think like most good to great players, he'll need substantial help. So it's about building around him, which shouldn't be super difficult to do given his skill set.

Captain Moroni
01-16-2018, 08:22 PM
His "slide coincided with THJ going down. In all fairness to Porzingis, he cant do it alone. You have an older PG in Jack who can't drive, a 19 year old PG in Frank that doesnt look to score at all. Porzingis is double teamed and forced to either pass out of it or force a shot.
Now that they are healthy, Porzingis actually has help and miraculously his numbers are going back up.
He is just fine. He is young and learning, and without question a star in this league.

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 08:23 PM
Dsj could be a star. Frank isnt. Why are we drafting low ceiling defensive role players?

I don't think we'll agree on what low ceiling means so we can just let this die here. In 3-5 years we'll see who the better overall player is between DSJ and Frank. I don't think the future outcome is as clear cut as you're trying to make it seem...

KnicksorBust
01-16-2018, 08:25 PM
Dsj could be a star. Frank isnt. Why are we drafting low ceiling defensive role players?

I don't think we'll agree on what low ceiling means so we can just let this die here. In 3-5 years we'll see who the better overall player is between DSJ and Frank. I don't think the future outcome is as clear cut as you're trying to make it seem...

Whats his ceiling? Who can he be? Make me optimistic.

Captain Moroni
01-16-2018, 08:25 PM
Knicks are at the bottom in three's made and attempted. Once the defense understands that, they collaspe inside on the knicks bigs. Kanter scores off of screens, P&R and put backs. Porzingis has to stay on the perimeter as he is lethal outside as well as inside. With some awesome three point shooting guards, porzingis would average 30 a night.

HeartOfStarks
01-16-2018, 08:34 PM
Whats his ceiling? Who can he be? Make me optimistic.

I mean I'm guessing you watch the games just like I do. Have you not seen flashes? Did you watch last night? Or his game against the Lakers, or Boston, or DSJ's Mavs?

He's a 6'5 PG who's not even 20 years old, looks like he may end up the best defensive PG in the league (not too far off either), and could be a 5X5 type of player. Great court vision, sees over his defender, his shooting percentages for a rookie are actually pretty damn solid if you compare him against past rookies. His +/- has been impressive more often than not, he actually makes the other 4 guys around him better, has helped with comeback wins, is a great rebounding PG...

Consider this - we're in the era of the 3 point shot, which means alot of long rebounds. Guards who can rebound at a high rate can instantaneously ignite breaks (btw we have THJ next to him, pretty good in transition)... transition baskets are the easiest/highest percentage baskets you can get basically. There's a lot of little things like this that just make Frank the type of player who helps teams win games.

DSJ is like the polar opposite almost. And I like DSJ. He's so athletic and explosive that I think he can be a winning player, cause he puts tremendous pressure on defenses. But outside of that I'm not sure where else DSJ will impact wins... on defense? Rebounding, probably not. He's a good passer but he's also a score first player whenever I see him. Those types of PGs have struggled historically even when they're super talented (Francis, Marbury etc.) Even Westbrook, who's a monster, hasn't seemed to be the easiest PG to play with according to certain guys.

I just wouldn't call Frank "low ceiling". I actually think it's an incredibly inaccurate assessment honestly.

hughest4
01-16-2018, 10:46 PM
Whats his ceiling? Who can he be? Make me optimistic.

I would have taken Smith over Ntilikina as well during the draft.
With that said, Frank has shown some flashes of serious potential. He has made a few clutch shots and has an awesome nose for the ball on the defensive end. When he was drafted everyone knew he was going to be a project. When he is 22-23 years old I see him being a very good player in this league.

D-Leethal
01-16-2018, 11:45 PM
His "slide coincided with THJ going down. In all fairness to Porzingis, he cant do it alone. You have an older PG in Jack who can't drive, a 19 year old PG in Frank that doesnt look to score at all. Porzingis is double teamed and forced to either pass out of it or force a shot.
Now that they are healthy, Porzingis actually has help and miraculously his numbers are going back up.
He is just fine. He is young and learning, and without question a star in this league.

I agree he needs help, but I really don't think his offensive game should take as big of a hit as it has even if he is playing with D-League guys. A hit yes, but he literally fell off a ****ing cliff for 20-30 games. Things he was doing with ease early it looked like he had no clue. That worries me that it's more than just efficiency hit from crappy teammates. Supreme players need teammates to win yes, but supreme players play at a supreme level even when their teammates suck. KP has looked like a rookie for 2 months with a small handful of good games mixed in between. He needs teammates to get him easy baskets but his 1:1 scoring ability will determine whether or not he is just a guy who finishes plays off a creator or is a guy who is a force from all over the court. Early season he was murdering big men in the post. After 15 games or so he couldn't even post up point guards on the switch.


Whats his ceiling? Who can he be? Make me optimistic.

Rondo with elite D, a better 3 ball and dribble pull up J, and no drama.

Giannis94
01-17-2018, 10:33 PM
5-12 so far tonight.. I got believe I got an infraction for asking if Beasley could overtake KP as the Knicks franchise player. Wtf psd

ewing
01-17-2018, 11:50 PM
I do think the lack of any speed at the guard spots does make it harder for the Knicks to play kp at the 5. If you want to get away with him at the 5 you have to play with pace.


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KnicksorBust
01-18-2018, 12:45 PM
I agree he needs help, but I really don't think his offensive game should take as big of a hit as it has even if he is playing with D-League guys. A hit yes, but he literally fell off a ****ing cliff for 20-30 games. Things he was doing with ease early it looked like he had no clue. That worries me that it's more than just efficiency hit from crappy teammates. Supreme players need teammates to win yes, but supreme players play at a supreme level even when their teammates suck. KP has looked like a rookie for 2 months with a small handful of good games mixed in between. He needs teammates to get him easy baskets but his 1:1 scoring ability will determine whether or not he is just a guy who finishes plays off a creator or is a guy who is a force from all over the court. Early season he was murdering big men in the post. After 15 games or so he couldn't even post up point guards on the switch.



Rondo with elite D, a better 3 ball and dribble pull up J, and no drama.

He better because guys like Rondo/Rubio/etc. that can't shoot are not all-stars in the modern game.

HeartOfStarks
01-18-2018, 07:11 PM
He better because guys like Rondo/Rubio/etc. that can't shoot are not all-stars in the modern game.

Check the Knicks/Memphis game thread (in Knicks forum) and you'll see some splits/net ratings on Frank & DSJ.

HeartOfStarks
01-18-2018, 08:32 PM
He better because guys like Rondo/Rubio/etc. that can't shoot are not all-stars in the modern game.

also Frank is 19, shooting 31% from 3. Dirk as a 20 year old rookie shot 20% from 3. Jason Kidd as a 21 year old rookie shot 27% from 3. John Wall was a 20 year old rookie, shot 29% from 3.

In 3-4 years we'll have a better feeling for where these guys land. For now the biggest metric I trust is net rating, which shows we're far better with Frank on the floor than with him off. DSJ has basically the opposite effect on the Mavs. They're rookies so time will tell, but I'd say go beyond the eye-test of what looks fun and exciting on offense and actually try to gauge who's helping their team win when they're on the floor.

xxplayerxx23
01-19-2018, 12:34 PM
A 34 year old off major surgery is his pg. his next best player is Micheal Beasley (Tim is back now so himbut for about a month and a half) he's a beast, he's still only 22 years old. He's gotta get better shot selection but that'll come. He needs some help. He will get a lot better with better talent around him