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mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 10:29 AM
So this discussion came up in the Jimmy Butler thread, but it led me to really look at Thompson's numbers and research his career until I came to some conclusions about him. And I just really feel like this deserves it's own thread for discussion.

I'll preface this by saying I think Thompson is a damn good basketball player who every other team in the league would absolutely welcome with open arms. Hell, as a pure shooter he'll probably go down as one of the five greatest to ever play the game, and between that and the rings he has and will inevitably add over the years, he's probably a lock for the Hall of Fame.

But in the last week, I've seen posters on this site rank Thompson in the top 10 of all players in the league, which I think is just absurd. On Bill Simmons list earlier this season on his podcast, he ranked Thompson 12th, which I still think is just way too high.

But I just got done raving about the guy and saying he's a Hall of Famer? Why doesn't he belong in this conversation? Because he's a remarkably one-dimensional player with only one elite skill who has made only marginal improvements as a basketball player the last few years, isn't remotely as productive as other elite players, has tanked in the playoffs and is easily the most expendable player of the four core guys in Golden State.

So let's take this piece by piece:

1. One-dimensionality
So Thompson is a really good shooter. He's on pace for about 267 3-pointers this season assuming he doesn't miss any more games, which would be good for eighth most in league history and the third time for him to appear on the all-time top 10 list for three-pointers in a season. And he's doing this despite taking fewer 3-point attempts (7.4) than he has the last two seasons, thanks to a spike in his 3-point shot, hitting 45 percent, his career high. His mid-range shot is also doing extremely well this year. According to Basketball Reference, from 16 feet to the 3-point line, he's making 52.1 percent of his shots, which is insane.

However, looking at that same table, something really stands out: the guy takes a RIDICULOUS amount of jump shots. To be exact, 68.8 percent of his field goal attempts this season come from 16+ feet from the rim. So despite his athleticism, only 12.2 percent of his shots come within three feet of the basket. To be fair, only 19 percent of Curry's shots come around the rim. However, Curry also gets to the line and is a competent shooter within that 3-16 feet range.

Thompson takes a shockingly low 1.3 FTA per game. And you can chalk it up to him not getting calls, but if you think about his game, how often do you see him aggressively drive to the basket and draw contact for an and-one? Last night, he took four FTA, but he didn't take a single free throw in the previous four games. Really let that sink in for a minute... It's crazy that his TS% (59.6) is as high as it is given that he's not in the top 100 in the league FTA this season.

And regarding his poor shooting inside 16 feet, Klay is hitting about 36 percent on shots from 3-10 feet and 39 percent on shots from 10-16 feet. By comparison, Curry is at 39 percent and 52 percent respectively in those categories. Curry is also getting to the line 6.7 times per game.

That one-dimensionality Klay shows offensively goes beyond just his shooting preferences. He also just simply doesn't create for others. His 2.6 assists per game and 11.5% AST% are both insanely low for his position. He's 105th in the league in assists per game among all players and 23rd among SGs, according to ESPN (which somehow doesn't consider Harden a SG). Compare that to other guys he's regularly compared to: Harden (9.1), Butler (5.1), Derozan (5.1), George (3.1, his lowest since 2012).

2. Marginal improvement
I've heard many times this season how Klay has made big strides or how he's having maybe the best season of his career, but is that really true? Let's take a look at the last four seasons:

14-15: 21.7 points, 2.9 assists, 3.2 rebounds on 46.3/43.9/87.9 percentages
15-16: 22.1 points, 2.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds on 47/42.5/87.3 percentages
16-17: 22.3 points, 2.1 assists, 3.7 rebounds on 46.8/41.4/85.3 percentages
17-18: 20.5 points, 2.6 assists, 4.1 rebounds on 48.1/45/89.3 percentages

But maybe his advanced numbers will show some improvement?

14-15: 20.8 PER, 59.1 TS%, 27.6% USG, 14.6% AST%, .172 WS/48, 2.7 BPM, 2.9 VORP
15-16: 18.6 PER, 59.7 TS%, 26.3% USG, 9.8% AST%, .144 WS/48, 0.7 BPM, 1.8 VORP
16-17: 17.4 PER, 59.2 TS%, 26.1% USG, 9.4% AST%, .129 WS/48, 0.3 BPM, 1.5 VORP
17-18: 16.7 PER, 59.6 TS%, 24.2% USG, 11.5% AST%, .110 WS/48, -0.3 BPM, 0.6 VORP (cumulative stat)

Not only does that not look like a guy who's improving, but that looks like a guy who peaked three years ago and has since plateaued and declined a bit. What's especially interesting to me is that Klay hasn't been significantly more efficient despite the addition of Durant, and he hasn't really been getting a lot more dimes since KD got to Golden State. Also, despite KD and Curry missing a big chunk of the season so far, his USG% is somehow lower than last year, and he's been more productive.

3. Not producing at an elite level

This one is much easier for me to argue, as the numbers pretty much speak for themselves. Let's compare Klay's numbers to other wings he's regularly compared to:

14-15 Klay: 21.7 points, 2.9 assists, 3.2 rebounds on 46.3/43.9/87.9 percentages
Klay: 20.5 points, 2.6 assists, 4.1 rebounds on 48.1/45/89.3 percentages
Harden: 32.3 points, 9.1 assists, 5.0 rebounds on 45.1/39/86.7 percentages
Butler: 21.4 points, 5.1 assists, 6.4 rebounds on 47.1/35/87.5 percentages
Derozan: 25.0 points, 5.1 assists, 4.2 rebounds on 47.9/37.8/82.5 percentages
George: 20.7 points, 3.1 assists, 5.5 rebounds on 43.2/43.5/81.3 percentages

I threw in 14-15 Klay to show you that even his peak season is still probably a tier below these guys productivity-wise. I also didn't include steals, but he's well below every other guy on this list as well in that category, as he's averaging 0.7 a game and every other guy on this last is at 1.2+. His shooting percentages honestly make this seem more even than it is, so let's look at the advanced numbers where the difference really starts to show (note again that VORP is a cumulative stat, so 14-15 Klay had twice as many games as everyone else):

14-15 Klay: 20.8 PER, 59.1 TS%, 27.6% USG, 14.6% AST%, .172 WS/48, 2.7 BPM, 2.9 VORP
Klay: 16.7 PER, 59.6 TS%, 24.2% USG, 11.5% AST%, .110 WS/48, -0.3 BPM, 0.6 VORP
Harden: 30.4 PER, 62.7 TS%, 35.9% USG, 45.2% AST%, .302 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 3.9 VORP
Butler: 23.2 PER, 58.5 TS%, 24.6% USG, 21.7% AST%, .199 WS/48, 4.9 BPM, 2.7 VORP
Derozan: 23.8 PER, 57.9 TS%, 30.0% USG, 24.4% AST%, .210 WS/48, 3.4 BPM, 1.9 VORP
George: 17.9 PER, 57.0 TS%, 25.2% USG, 13.6% AST%, .135 WS/48, 2.3 BPM, 1.5 VORP

This is a killer for me. Despite Butler and George playing on new teams this season and every one of these guys playing on teams with a ton of talent with other All-Star caliber players, Klay completely pales in comparison. He's so far below these guys (with the exception of George), that it's insane that he's getting ranked ahead of some of these guys on a regular basis.

But you say "MBT, you're not really taking his defense into consideration and how important he is to the team?" I'm running out of space here, and this took a ton of time, but I'll try to get to that today as well. Consider this Part 1 of a two-part series...

Heediot
01-13-2018, 10:29 AM
I think he's over-rated as a go to guy, but if there was a definition of 3-d in the dictionary might as well stick his face next to the definition. His impact as a complementary player is better then lower end number one options so **** gets cloudy. I'd put him somewhere in the 20's for me (which is where low end number 1's are).

Giannis94
01-13-2018, 10:30 AM
This should a fun thread

Heediot
01-13-2018, 10:35 AM
To his defense, I think psychologically engagement matters. With KD here maybe he isn't as engaged as before expecting less touches. The more engaged you are the better you play.

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 10:37 AM
And I'd also like to note that this is NOT an attempt to troll Warriors fans. I've seen plenty of non-Warriors fans on PSD and elsewhere make similar comments about Klay. Mods, please do not take this down, and I hope we can have a civil conversation about this with it devolving into a shouting match.

ewing
01-13-2018, 10:38 AM
this is a difficult one for me b/c I think Klay has skills that we don't see that often in GS. Is that a reflection of his role or his play? I'm not sure. his fg% as a finisher is pretty eye opening. anyway good thread

ewing
01-13-2018, 10:40 AM
To his defense, I think psychologically engagement matters. With KD here maybe he isn't as engaged as before expecting less touches. The more engaged you are the better you play.

can he engage and maintain on that level? Even with the skills some guys just aren't that type of player. Rasheed Wallace comes to mind. Great skills on both ends, played hard and smart, but wasn't suited to be "the guy" on offense IMO

Giannis94
01-13-2018, 10:48 AM
To his defense, I think psychologically engagement matters. With KD here maybe he isn't as engaged as before expecting less touches. The more engaged you are the better you play.

Yep. I mean if you take Klay and put him on the Rockets instead of Harden I feel like he would do better than people think. Since getting KD his role on the warriors has been marginalized. And yet he always comes up clutch in the post-season.

Mell413
01-13-2018, 10:50 AM
I think he's over-rated as a go to guy, but if there was a definition of 3-d in the dictionary might as well stick his face next to the definition. His impact as a complementary player is better then lower end number one options so **** gets cloudy. I'd put him somewhere in the 20's for me (which is where low end number 1's are).
This is pretty much where I stand.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-13-2018, 11:31 AM
I'd probably go 18-24 range, which is still pretty damn good.

He's the 4th best player on the Warriors and I think Draymond at best is in the 12-16 range so Klay has to be behind him.

tredigs
01-13-2018, 11:35 AM
Klay was overrated until he became a beast of an iso defender in the playoffs. Now he can go no wrong in my book. He knows his role and plays it to perfection. Zero ego. If you're comparing his #'s to other #1 options it will paint a certain picture, but he's the perfect chess piece.

Scoots
01-13-2018, 11:41 AM
I ranked Klay below Butler in that other thread too. I think Klay is ranked where he is more because of the weakness of the position in the NBA right now than anything else.

Klay's man defense is elite, his team defense is just okay. He's a pure shooter but he's not what I'd call a scorer in that he doesn't really score in a lot of different ways or create for himself or others.

He's grown as a ball handler and passer in the last few years but it's not really reflected much in his stats, but he's always been kind of less than he should be in those areas and in rebounding.

I think if he was on a team that needed more of him he'd grow to fill those roles better but on THIS team he's maximizing the main skills they want him to use.

A BIG thing about Klay that hasn't been mentioned is his mentality ... how many multi-time all-stars would be just fine being the 4th man on a team? Klay is steady and easy as a teammate ... he does what the coach asks, he doesn't ever cause friction or trouble and he works hard at whatever the coach tells him to do. I think that comes from his Dad being a hyper-critical guy and Klay's response was to be hard on himself and work hard while just letting the rest of it just wash over him. That's not something that shows up in any stats and is hard to evaluate but it's still a critical aspect of him as a member of a team.

Raps18-19 Champ
01-13-2018, 11:47 AM
I ranked Klay below Butler in that other thread too. I think Klay is ranked where he is more because of the weakness of the position in the NBA right now than anything else.

Klay's man defense is elite, his team defense is just okay. He's a pure shooter but he's not what I'd call a scorer in that he doesn't really score in a lot of different ways or create for himself or others.

He's grown as a ball handler and passer in the last few years but it's not really reflected much in his stats, but he's always been kind of less than he should be in those areas and in rebounding.

I think if he was on a team that needed more of him he'd grow to fill those roles better but on THIS team he's maximizing the main skills they want him to use.

A BIG thing about Klay that hasn't been mentioned is his mentality ... how many multi-time all-stars would be just fine being the 4th man on a team? Klay is steady and easy as a teammate ... he does what the coach asks, he doesn't ever cause friction or trouble and he works hard at whatever the coach tells him to do. I think that comes from his Dad being a hyper-critical guy and Klay's response was to be hard on himself and work hard while just letting the rest of it just wash over him. That's not something that shows up in any stats and is hard to evaluate but it's still a critical aspect of him as a member of a team.

That's not usually something that is considered when it comes to talking about the better player. Him falling in line instead of trying to take charge would usually be a bad thing when ranking the best players but would be a good thing when ranking best supporting players.

Jamiecballer
01-13-2018, 11:56 AM
I don't know what the answer to the question is but I don't have the stones to question the improvement of a guy who plays his part sublimely and within the best functioning unit arguably in the history of the game. That's gall.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

tredigs
01-13-2018, 11:58 AM
Harden and Butler are on another level, in case that needs to be stated. But Klay fits his role as a 2nd/3rd option offensively better than any player of our generation due in large part to his demeanor and willingness to sacrifice for titles. Again, the ultimate chess piece.

Hawkeye15
01-13-2018, 12:17 PM
tough to gauge really good players on loaded teams. Klay, as a top option, asked to lead a team? Meh, I would put Harden, and Butler well ahead of him.

A guy like Klay, we just don't know how good he is, until he is forced to face teams planning around him. He is basically the guy other teams just try and contest shots, and let him have his shots. Better than giving them to the other 2 perimeter beasts GS has.

He is clearly in the 2nd tier of SG's, but I just don't know exactly where I would rate him.

lol, please
01-13-2018, 12:28 PM
tough to gauge really good players on loaded teams. Klay, as a top option, asked to lead a team? Meh, I would put Harden, and Butler well ahead of him.

A guy like Klay, we just don't know how good he is, until he is forced to face teams planning around him. He is basically the guy other teams just try and contest shots, and let him have his shots. Better than giving them to the other 2 perimeter beasts GS has.

He is clearly in the 2nd tier of SG's, but I just don't know exactly where I would rate him.I think when they take curry out and Klay gets more defensive attention than Durant, it's telling.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

lol, please
01-13-2018, 12:31 PM
Klay was overrated until he became a beast of an iso defender in the playoffs. Now he can go no wrong in my book. He knows his role and plays it to perfection. Zero ego. If you're comparing his #'s to other #1 options it will paint a certain picture, but he's the perfect chess piece.Not sure he wasn't ever underrated, but the rest I agree with.


Anyway, smh MBT, I was hoping you wouldn't pursue this but here we are. Fortunately I spent a few hours reading through similar threads on Reddit and have found plenty of theories and explanations for why his defense doesnt reflect in advanced metrics. I'll post links and quotes later when I have time. I see the gloves are off though MBT and now warriors fans have the green light to rip apart Houston's players.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 12:31 PM
Part II: Playoffs, Defense and Value to the Warriors

4. Klay shrinks in the posteason
This is another relatively easy point to make, as the numbers again make the case for me. Take a look at those numbers I posted for Klay from the past four seasons and compare them to his postseason numbers for the last four years:

13-14: 16.4 points, 3.6 assists, 3.4 rebounds on 40.8, 36.4, 79.2 percentages
14-15: 18.6 points, 2.6 assists, 3.9 rebounds on 44.6/39/80 percentages
15-16: 24.3 points, 2.3 assists, 3.7 rebounds on 44.4/42.4/85.4 percentages
16-17: 15 points, 2.1 assists, 3.9 rebounds on 39.7/38.7/78.8 percentages

And here's those postseasons in advanced metrics:

13-14: 12.0 PER, 53 TS%, .045 WS/48, 0.6 BPM
14-15: 14.8 PER, 55.3 TS%, .118 WS/48, 1.5 BPM
15-16: 19.5 PER, 58.8 TS%, .143 WS/48, 2.8 BPM
16-17: 9.3 PER, 50.7 TS%, .049 WS/48, -1.5 BPM

So basically he's had one really good postseason, one mediocre postseason and two just truly abysmal postseasons. Let's dig a little deeper, though, and look at his Finals production:

14-15: 15.8 points, 1.7 assists, 4.3 rebounds on 40.9/30/91.7 shooting percentages
15-16: 19.6 points, 1.9 assists, 3.0 rebounds on 42.7/35/78.6 shooting percentages
16-17: 16.4 points, 2.2 assists, 4.8 rebounds on 42.9/42.5/71.4 shooting percentages

That's not great. Even in 2015-16, when Klay had the best playoff performance of his career, his numbers were pretty pedestrian compared to his regular season production. And while you can usually give a guy some leeway in the postseason, when defense is much tougher and the vast majority of players see their production drop a bit from the regular season, Klay's numbers (particularly his advanced metrics) go from All-Star level of production in the regular season to pretty much the league average or worse across the board.

5. Overrated defense?
So this is a little tougher argument to make, because there aren't really any good, easy-to-obtain defensive statistics that don't take into account factors other than a player's individual defensive performance. But if we use those statistics that are available to us, it doesn't exactly paint the picture of Klay as some elite defender as some might have you believe.

Let's compare Klay's career advanced defensive metrics versus guys we know to be elite perimeter defenders:
Klay: 0.9 SPG, 107 Defensive Rating, -1.5 DBPM
Iggy: 1.6 SPG, 105 Defensive Rating, 1.6 DBPM
Kawhi: 1.8 SPG, 99 Defensive Rating, 2.6 DBPM
Allen: 1.4 SPG, 102 Defensive Rating, 2.1 DBPM
Lebron: 1.7 SPG, 103 Defensive Rating, 1.9 DBPM
Paul: 2.3 SPG, 104 Defensive Rating, 0.7 DBPM
Butler: 1.5 SPG, 105 Defensive Rating, 1.0 DBPM
Harden: 1.5 SPG, 106 Defensive Rating, 0.1 DBPM

Since defensive win shares are a cumulative stat, let's just look at each guy's peak DWS in a season:
Klay: 3.2
Iggy: 4.4
Kawhi: 5.5
Allen: 4.1
Lebron: 6.5
Paul: 5.0
Butler: 4.6
Harden: 4.2

You'll notice I threw Harden in there at the end as a comparison for a guy who is regularly considered to be a below average defender. And I recognize that steals are hardly a good stat to prove a player's defensive value. Frankly none of these numbers are great barometers, but when you stack these guys up to each other, clearly Klay stands out as the one who doesn't belong.

Klay has zero All-Defensive teams, his DBPM is negative nearly every season and his DRPM this season (-0.17) is ranked 271st in the league. My eyes tell me he's a solid defender, but I also think playing for a team with multiple elite defenders has really propped him up as something he's not: a top 10 perimeter defender in the league. Hell, at best, he's maybe the third or fourth best perimeter defender on his own team, which brings me to my last point...

6. Klay is the least valuable of the Warriors' core four by a mile
So let's look at Klay's numbers this season within the context of his own team. Let's see how he ranks among his own teammates in key statistical areas. First, the positives:

MPG: 2nd (first in total minutes by a ton)
PPG: 3rd
3P%: 2nd (and Casspi barely plays)
3PA: 3rd
OWS: 3rd
OBPM: 3rd

So, not a lot of surprises there. But he's still a valuable scorer and probably the team's best 3-point shooter this season when you factor in percentage and volume. But clearly he provides value to the team. How much value, though? Let's take a look at some of the negatives, and I'll cut out anyone who doesn't average at least 13 minutes per game to really look at the key contributors to the team:

2P%: 12th (dead last)
TS%: 7th
APG: 5th
AST%: 9th
RPG: 6th
TRB%: 9th
SPG: 6th
STL%: 12th (dead last)
DWS: 4th
WS/48: 8th
DBPM: 11th (only better than Young)
BPM: 9th
VORP: 6th

If you're the Warriors front office, and you're having the conversation of "Which core guy is most expendable?," don't they have to look at his total value compared to Durant, Curry and Green and immediately point to Thompson? Yes, his 3-point shooting and floor spacing is extremely valuable to the team, but considering how little he contributes to other areas, there are a dozen or more guys in the league who could replace him, shoot 38+ percent from the 3-point line and probably give the Warriors 70-80 percent of what Thompson provides every night at half the cost.

His defensive value is overrated, and he doesn't create for others, crash the glass or force a lot of turnovers. Compared to someone like Green, who isn't nearly the scorer that Thompson is, but is such a jack of all trades and a beastly defensive presence, Thompson seems significantly less important by comparison.

Conclusion
So this exercise wasn't meant to infuriate Warriors fans or even to completely bash Thompson as a player. As I said at the start, I think he's a damn good basketball player, and someone I would love to have on my team. But he's basically a 3 and D guy who provides a lot more "3" than "D." And I expect a lot of people to say "But he sacrifices for the betterment of the team, and his numbers would be significantly better playing elsewhere!" But would they?

He'd score more, and simply by having the ball in his hands more often and being more of a focal point offensively, I think he'd get a few more assists and a few more free throw attempts. But the guy isn't suddenly going to be substantially more aggressive driving to the basket and get 6-8 free throws a night. And with the defense keyed in on him and no elite go-to playmaker to create for him, he'd have to take a lot more contested jumpers and create a lot more shots for himself. It's possible that he's capable of being that guy, but we've never seen it, and that's a key reason why I just can't understand people rating him as highly as they do. Even without Durant in Golden State, Thompson wasn't a 25+ PPG guy.

Bottom line, Thompson is a volume scorer and a phenomenal jump shooter who is competent on defense and will occasionally bust out for 30 or 40 every once in a while. But to rank him above superior players who are required to do far more, produce at a far higher level and matter so much more to their team's success is asinine. Top 20-25? I'll buy it. Top 10? Not even close.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-13-2018, 12:33 PM
Klay didn't make any 3's when rookie Brown guarded him last night.

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 12:43 PM
Not sure he wasn't ever underrated, but the rest I agree with.

Anyway, smh MBT, I was hoping you wouldn't pursue this but here we are. Fortunately I spent a few hours reading through similar threads on Reddit and have found plenty of theories and explanations for why his defense doesnt reflect in advanced metrics. I'll post links and quotes later when I have time. I see the gloves are off though MBT and now warriors fans have the green light to rip apart Houston's players.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

You're missing the point here, lol. I'm not trying to start some sort of Warriors fans vs. Rockets fans war on PSD. I'm trying to take an objective look at someone I think just gets too much credit for who he is as a player. If you have counter points, I'd love to read them. That's what this is supposed to be: a legitimate conversation and debate about where Klay is as a player and why he gets overrated or underrated by fans and analysts.

You're welcome to start similar threads about Rockets players if you'd like, and I'd enjoy debating with you about them. But if you take this as some sort of gauntlet that's been thrown down, then you're not getting the spirit of this at all.

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 12:49 PM
Klay was overrated until he became a beast of an iso defender in the playoffs. Now he can go no wrong in my book. He knows his role and plays it to perfection. Zero ego. If you're comparing his #'s to other #1 options it will paint a certain picture, but he's the perfect chess piece.


I ranked Klay below Butler in that other thread too. I think Klay is ranked where he is more because of the weakness of the position in the NBA right now than anything else.

Klay's man defense is elite, his team defense is just okay. He's a pure shooter but he's not what I'd call a scorer in that he doesn't really score in a lot of different ways or create for himself or others.

He's grown as a ball handler and passer in the last few years but it's not really reflected much in his stats, but he's always been kind of less than he should be in those areas and in rebounding.

I think if he was on a team that needed more of him he'd grow to fill those roles better but on THIS team he's maximizing the main skills they want him to use.

A BIG thing about Klay that hasn't been mentioned is his mentality ... how many multi-time all-stars would be just fine being the 4th man on a team? Klay is steady and easy as a teammate ... he does what the coach asks, he doesn't ever cause friction or trouble and he works hard at whatever the coach tells him to do. I think that comes from his Dad being a hyper-critical guy and Klay's response was to be hard on himself and work hard while just letting the rest of it just wash over him. That's not something that shows up in any stats and is hard to evaluate but it's still a critical aspect of him as a member of a team.

This is an important point I'd like to touch on here, because I think it's something that both proves his value to the Warriors and holds him back as an individual player. He's an excellent No. 2 or No. 3 offensively. He thrives in that role, and he plays it as well as probably anybody in the league. And he never seems to ask for anything more or pout because he's not getting touches. That's a great mentality to have... as a role player.

But that's also what separates him from No. 1 options in the league. Those guys want the ball in big moments and they need to be selfish as times, because it's just sort of built into their DNA. Klay needs more of that to really improve as a player, and until he leaves Golden State or that team loses other core players, I'm not sure he'll ever develop that instinct.

WaDe03
01-13-2018, 01:14 PM
Klay didn't make any 3's when rookie Brown guarded him last night.

Everyone has off shooting nights, even the greatest shooters. I'm sure it was more Klay than it was the defender.

Heediot
01-13-2018, 01:14 PM
But that's also what separates him from No. 1 options in the league. Those guys want the ball in big moments and they need to be selfish as times, because it's just sort of built into their DNA. Klay needs more of that to really improve as a player, and until he leaves Golden State or that team loses other core players, I'm not sure he'll ever develop that instinct.

I'm not sure. I remember that OKC playoff game and the guy just took over and snatched the game away from OKC, that was one of if not the critical moments of the series. I don't know if that counts as in his DNA.

blahblahyoutoo
01-13-2018, 01:19 PM
I think his shooting is slightly overrated, but not given enough credit on defense. he's not going to carry a team, but he's a great 2nd/3rd best player in the lineup, and spreads the floor extremely well for obvious reasons.

WaDe03
01-13-2018, 01:23 PM
Which of these guys is Klay better than:

LeBron
KD
Curry
Harden
Kawhi
Butler
Westbrook
CP3
AD
Cousins
Wall
IT
Hayward
Griffin
Green
PG
Lillard
Embiid
Giannis
Kyrie
Drummond
Whiteside
Horford
Derozan
Lowry
Beal
CJ
Oladipo
Simmons
Kristaps
Aldridge
Towns
Jokic
Gasol
Conley

I don't think all that guys are better but I would say majority are better or right there. Young guys that I think will pass him in the next 2 years at most:

Mitchell (we may have finally found the next Wade)
Jaylen Brown
Tatum
Ingram
Wiggins
Lauri (dark horse)

After looking at everyone I would say with confidence he's in the 25-30 range but wouldn't be made at someone who has him in the 20-25 range. Any higher than that then I disagree.

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 01:25 PM
I'm not sure. I remember that OKC playoff game and the guy just took over and snatched the game away from OKC, that was one of if not the critical moments of the series. I don't know if that counts as in his DNA.

Guys can have great performances in a big moment or two, but there's a big difference between stepping up once in a blue moon and being the best guy on the floor night in and night out for an entire season plus the playoffs.

Chronz
01-13-2018, 01:28 PM
A lesser Kevin Martin offensively with Bruce Bowen like on ball defense then. Could win 48 games on a team built around him...

nastynice
01-13-2018, 01:28 PM
People really have him as a top 10-12 player?? If so then yes overrated

The comparisons in the op were bad, not just cuz stats arguments are inherently stupid, but also cuz all those other guys have the ball in their hands much more often. Klay plays a certain role and plays it at an elite level. Heís perfect for the warriors

tredigs
01-13-2018, 01:30 PM
This is an important point I'd like to touch on here, because I think it's something that both proves his value to the Warriors and holds him back as an individual player. He's an excellent No. 2 or No. 3 offensively. He thrives in that role, and he plays it as well as probably anybody in the league. And he never seems to ask for anything more or pout because he's not getting touches. That's a great mentality to have... as a role player.

But that's also what separates him from No. 1 options in the league. Those guys want the ball in big moments and they need to be selfish as times, because it's just sort of built into their DNA. Klay needs more of that to really improve as a player, and until he leaves Golden State or that team loses other core players, I'm not sure he'll ever develop that instinct.

Eh, I think he's fine with his role dude. He's an integral piece to maybe the best team in NBA history and is getting a ton of shots + going to the Finals every season. He doesn't shy away from a thing and owns that role.

Why would he want to leave that to be the Kings #1 option?

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 01:51 PM
Which of these guys is Klay better than:

LeBron
KD
Curry
Harden
Kawhi
Butler
Westbrook
CP3
AD
Cousins
Wall
IT
Hayward
Griffin
Green
PG
Lillard
Embiid
Giannis
Kyrie
Drummond
Whiteside
Horford
Derozan
Lowry
Beal
CJ
Oladipo
Simmons
Kristaps
Aldridge
Towns
Jokic
Gasol
Conley

I don't think all that guys are better but I would say majority are better or right there. Young guys that I think will pass him in the next 2 years at most:

Mitchell (we may have finally found the next Wade)
Jaylen Brown
Tatum
Ingram
Wiggins
Lauri (dark horse)

After looking at everyone I would say with confidence he's in the 25-30 range but wouldn't be made at someone who has him in the 20-25 range. Any higher than that then I disagree.
I've bolded guys who I would unequivocally list as better players, which is 18 players. So, at best, he's 19th. Now let's look at everyone else you've listed (not counting your young guys) and break them down by categories:

Guys playing better this season:

Andre Drummond
Victor Oladipo
LeMarcus Aldridge
I'd rank all of these guys ahead of Klay today based on their performance this season. Aldridge is stepping up due to injury, so that might be short-lived, but the other two guys are the best players on their respective teams, both of which are in the playoffs right now. So if I'm basing it on this season, Klay is probably in that 22-23 range.

Injured guys who might be better:

Isaiah Thomas
Blake Griffin
Gordon Hayward
Based on Thomas' performance last season and Blake's overall dominance throughout his career, I think both guys would likely be ahead of Klay if they were healthy this season. Hayward is borderline as he and Thompson aren't totally dissimilar players. Gun to my head, I think I'd rather have Klay, but Hayward's numbers last year in Utah were a little better.

The other borderline All-Star shooting guards:

Bradley Beal
CJ McCollum
Statistically, these guys are right there, neck and neck with Klay. And like Klay, they're better secondary pieces who don't create a ton for others or produce in a lot of other categories. These guys are probably a little more versatile offensively, but they don't have an elite skill like Klay does with his 3-point shooting, and he's a better defender than they are. So I'd give the edge to Klay here.

Other veteran No. 2 or No. 3 guys

Hassan Whiteside
Al Horford
Kyle Lowry
Marc Gasol
Mike Conley
I love all of these players for different reasons, but like Klay, none of these guys is carrying a team by himself right now. Your opinion of where he ranks compared to them is probably going to vary based on your opinion of them and which types of production you value more, but I personally wouldn't rank any of them ahead of Klay right now. Lowry and Gasol have both been ahead of him at times in their careers, but I don't know that I would say they are today.

Flawed young guys who will be better in 2-3 seasons if Klay doesn't improve:

Ben Simmons
Kristaps Porzingis
KAT
Nikola Jokic
You could actually make a strong case for any of these guys as being better than Klay today. But despite Klay's flaws, he's probably a more complete player than these guys right now. Simmons and Jokic haven't figured out how to consistently put up 20 a night yet, KAT can't defend the paint and Porzingis hasn't been very efficient this season. But you definitely get a sense that all four are on the cusp. You could put Embiid in this category, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because he's been spectacular in the games he's played, and when he's on the floor, he's simply a better player than Klay.

mightybosstone
01-13-2018, 01:58 PM
A lesser Kevin Martin offensively with Bruce Bowen like on ball defense then. Could win 48 games on a team built around him...
Martin is an interesting comparison. Klay is the better shooter, but Martin had a real knack for getting to the line, which made him a hyperefficient scorer. Klay doesn't have that. I'm not sure I buy Thompson as a comparable on-ball defender to Bowen, though. Very good, without question. But on Bowen's level? That guy might be the best crunch-time perimeter stopper of the past 20 years.

mngopher35
01-13-2018, 02:36 PM
Klay is not a top 10 player but is also a 2nd option type scorer on a team where he is the 3rd option and probably 4th best player. Just like with bosh his stats likely take a little bit of a hit now since kd will get the looks he used to and be focused in the offense more now.

I mean at this point I think it is fair to say curry Durant klay and probably even green will all be rated all over the place. From most dominant/ubguardable players ever to Damian lilliard we see all sorts of takes. This team has far more talent than needed so no one is really living up to their individual potential here with things so easy and it makes it really tough to gauge any one individual. That's why this team is so lame for many, these guys arent even needed to really perform/try.

Chronz
01-13-2018, 02:42 PM
Klay is not a top 10 player but is also a 2nd option type scorer on a team where he is the 3rd option and probably 4th best player. Just like with bosh his stats likely take a little bit of a hit now since kd will get the looks he used to and be focused in the offense more now.

I mean at this point I think it is fair to say curry Durant klay and probably even green will all be rated all over the place. From most dominant/ubguardable players ever to Damian lilliard we see all sorts of takes. This team has far more talent than needed so no one is really living up to their individual potential here with things so easy and it makes it really tough to gauge any one individual. That's why this team is so lame for many, these guys arent even needed to really perform/try.
Not too different from the James worthy debate.

How much can you really prove on a team that great? I say **** em, let them grow the balls to prove their worth.

mngopher35
01-13-2018, 02:52 PM
Klay is not a top 10 player but is also a 2nd option type scorer on a team where he is the 3rd option and probably 4th best player. Just like with bosh his stats likely take a little bit of a hit now since kd will get the looks he used to and be focused in the offense more now.

I mean at this point I think it is fair to say curry Durant klay and probably even green will all be rated all over the place. From most dominant/ubguardable players ever to Damian lilliard we see all sorts of takes. This team has far more talent than needed so no one is really living up to their individual potential here with things so easy and it makes it really tough to gauge any one individual. That's why this team is so lame for many, these guys arent even needed to really perform/try.
Not too different from the James worthy debate.

How much can you really prove on a team that great? I say **** em, let them grow the balls to prove their worth.

Yup most nba fans will want them to clearly prove they can play at these high levels without extreme situations. That will lead many to rank them how they probably should be ranked based on what they have proven individually. They don't get major credit for easy titles but it's not like you ignore it either.

Their fans will hype up this current team/situation as some sort of proof of what they can do at an individual level but many won't just ignore the obvious context to prop them up like that without bias.

You are left with a group of people basing it off their overall and team success today with another pointing to the individual flaws when not together in an extreme situation. So they get placed all over in rankings etc due to that.

Chronz
01-13-2018, 02:57 PM
Yup most nba fans will want them to clearly prove they can play at these high levels without extreme situations. That will lead many to rank them how they probably should be ranked based on what they have proven individually. They don't get major credit for easy titles but it's not like you ignore it either.

Their fans will hype up this current team/situation as some sort of proof of what they can do at an individual level but many won't just ignore the obvious context to prop them up like that without bias.

You are left with a group of people basing it off their overall and team success today with another pointing to the individual flaws when not together in an extreme situation. So they get placed all over in rankings etc due to that.

You know how they say history will forget about it... I'm wondering just how long they mean. Like is basketball reference going to be outlawed knowledge where we won't remember just how dominant golden State was BEFORE KD?

That's a sad day but I hope they mean like 200 years from now when basketball has been replaced by robot ball

mngopher35
01-13-2018, 03:04 PM
The people who say we will forget are usually the people who simply like the guy and WANT people to forget. Everyone will know that the year before he joined they won 73 games and the year before won the title. Everyone will see how good those guys were and their all star teams etc and won't have attachments to the players so see how they struggled outside this situation.

Klay is going to be the one who takes the biggest hit statistically IMO. Mbt is just kinda pointing out what that looks like here when you actually dig into those numbers. It's been downhill since Durant

Hawkeye15
01-13-2018, 04:15 PM
A lesser Kevin Martin offensively with Bruce Bowen like on ball defense then. Could win 48 games on a team built around him...

I don't know if he could be that effective defensively as a top option giving a ton of effort to lead an offense.

nastynice
01-13-2018, 05:04 PM
Yup most nba fans will want them to clearly prove they can play at these high levels without extreme situations. That will lead many to rank them how they probably should be ranked based on what they have proven individually. They don't get major credit for easy titles but it's not like you ignore it either.

Their fans will hype up this current team/situation as some sort of proof of what they can do at an individual level but many won't just ignore the obvious context to prop them up like that without bias.

You are left with a group of people basing it off their overall and team success today with another pointing to the individual flaws when not together in an extreme situation. So they get placed all over in rankings etc due to that.

It just all depends on what you're trying to rank them based off of. For example, last year KD got quite unanimous praise for his playoff run from even the most vocal opposers of his move. Because he absolutely killed it. Much like lebron in miami, when you see greatness in front of you it just doesnt matter. Remember how many people were saying **** like his titles in miami won't count, etc etc. But after seeing that type of domination, no one really sticks that weak *** argument anymore.

Golden state is still new to this situation, only 1.5 years so far, so much of how he's viewed is going to depend on how everything plays out

mngopher35
01-13-2018, 05:23 PM
Yup most nba fans will want them to clearly prove they can play at these high levels without extreme situations. That will lead many to rank them how they probably should be ranked based on what they have proven individually. They don't get major credit for easy titles but it's not like you ignore it either.

Their fans will hype up this current team/situation as some sort of proof of what they can do at an individual level but many won't just ignore the obvious context to prop them up like that without bias.

You are left with a group of people basing it off their overall and team success today with another pointing to the individual flaws when not together in an extreme situation. So they get placed all over in rankings etc due to that.

It just all depends on what you're trying to rank them based off of. For example, last year KD got quite unanimous praise for his playoff run from even the most vocal opposers of his move. Because he absolutely killed it. Much like lebron in miami, when you see greatness in front of you it just doesnt matter. Remember how many people were saying **** like his titles in miami won't count, etc etc. But after seeing that type of domination, no one really sticks that weak *** argument anymore.

Golden state is still new to this situation, only 1.5 years so far, so much of how he's viewed is going to depend on how everything plays out

It's nothing like Miami though and even then it was mostly just lebron haters saying that not most nba fans. I M joy saying it's impossible and he sucks now like that at all, just that the situation is clearly a major factor unlike we have ever seen. That's it and it's pretty simple/obvious. There are tons of other factors that separate why lebron would get praise in comparison but you don't generally care about any context so this is all unlikely to make a difference in your opinion.

Kd did not get near the same praise as many individuals (at an atg level) for their first ring and it's due to the situation. He definitely killed it in the finals series but even Warriors fans point out he isn't even the best player on his own team haha and it's not like they ever had real competition. It's just way different than anything we have seen before and most non homers won't simply give a guy major credit for jumping to such a situation.

Scoots
01-13-2018, 05:54 PM
This is an important point I'd like to touch on here, because I think it's something that both proves his value to the Warriors and holds him back as an individual player. He's an excellent No. 2 or No. 3 offensively. He thrives in that role, and he plays it as well as probably anybody in the league. And he never seems to ask for anything more or pout because he's not getting touches. That's a great mentality to have... as a role player.

But that's also what separates him from No. 1 options in the league. Those guys want the ball in big moments and they need to be selfish as times, because it's just sort of built into their DNA. Klay needs more of that to really improve as a player, and until he leaves Golden State or that team loses other core players, I'm not sure he'll ever develop that instinct.

I agree ... but it also increases his value, just not to teams that want him to be #1.

Scoots
01-13-2018, 05:56 PM
Which of these guys is Klay better than:

LeBron
KD
Curry
Harden
Kawhi
Butler
Westbrook
CP3
AD
Cousins
Wall
IT
Hayward
Griffin
Green
PG
Lillard
Embiid
Giannis
Kyrie
Drummond
Whiteside
Horford
Derozan
Lowry
Beal
CJ
Oladipo
Simmons
Kristaps
Aldridge
Towns
Jokic
Gasol
Conley

I don't think all that guys are better but I would say majority are better or right there. Young guys that I think will pass him in the next 2 years at most:

Mitchell (we may have finally found the next Wade)
Jaylen Brown
Tatum
Ingram
Wiggins
Lauri (dark horse)

After looking at everyone I would say with confidence he's in the 25-30 range but wouldn't be made at someone who has him in the 20-25 range. Any higher than that then I disagree.

Are you feeling okay? You left Wade off the list.

Scoots
01-13-2018, 06:00 PM
The people who say we will forget are usually the people who simply like the guy and WANT people to forget. Everyone will know that the year before he joined they won 73 games and the year before won the title. Everyone will see how good those guys were and their all star teams etc and won't have attachments to the players so see how they struggled outside this situation.

Klay is going to be the one who takes the biggest hit statistically IMO. Mbt is just kinda pointing out what that looks like here when you actually dig into those numbers. It's been downhill since Durant

The average fan only remembers specific about super-stars. Everyone else's legacy and story fades with time.

Jets012
01-13-2018, 06:13 PM
Considering a LARGE portion of average NBA fans would take him over Draymond (I would bet the majority of the average NBA fans would take Klay over Draymond) yes he's very overrated. He benefits a ton from playing next to Steph Curry. I think he's easily taken place as one of the most overrated players in the league once people got off Rondo's nuts

WaDe03
01-13-2018, 07:06 PM
Are you feeling okay? You left Wade off the list.

He always goes with or without saying.

Chronz
01-13-2018, 07:11 PM
It just all depends on what you're trying to rank them based off of. For example, last year KD got quite unanimous praise for his playoff run from even the most vocal opposers of his move. Because he absolutely killed it. Much like lebron in miami, when you see greatness in front of you it just doesnt matter. Remember how many people were saying **** like his titles in miami won't count, etc etc. But after seeing that type of domination, no one really sticks that weak *** argument anymore.

Golden state is still new to this situation, only 1.5 years so far, so much of how he's viewed is going to depend on how everything plays out
Yeah I'm not seeing any of that sort of praise. I saw the exact opposite tbh and I think that's why KD hasn't felt any vindication in his championship, kd had a truly epic meltdown this off-season lol. But hey, maybe I missed when a legend said he just had the greatest playoff run from an individual ever. I'm down to see your references

Chronz
01-13-2018, 07:16 PM
The average fan only remembers specific about super-stars. Everyone else's legacy and story fades with time.

Here's the problem with your theory, we are talking about a record setting core that has already won, this isn't exactly an advanced feat to remember. To me it's abit like suggesting people will eventually lose to ability to add 1+1=2. I don't see any, even the most casual of fans losing basic logical sense.

Then I think of those who actually care to debate this sport. What are the chances someone who posts on a forum forgets a record breaking team? Lol, how long will that take.?

CityofTreez
01-13-2018, 07:17 PM
A lesser Kevin Martin offensively with Bruce Bowen like on ball defense then. Could win 48 games on a team built around him...

Not a bad comparison.
Kmart was a glass sg though but his abillity to get to FT line was nice. Klay doesnít have that.
Heís no Bowen yet, but Klay has been deadly in playoff clutch defense.

Chronz
01-13-2018, 07:18 PM
Seriously throw a year at me, anyone?

nastynice
01-13-2018, 08:03 PM
It's nothing like Miami though and even then it was mostly just lebron haters saying that not most nba fans. I M joy saying it's impossible and he sucks now like that at all, just that the situation is clearly a major factor unlike we have ever seen. That's it and it's pretty simple/obvious. There are tons of other factors that separate why lebron would get praise in comparison but you don't generally care about any context so this is all unlikely to make a difference in your opinion.

Kd did not get near the same praise as many individuals (at an atg level) for their first ring and it's due to the situation. He definitely killed it in the finals series but even Warriors fans point out he isn't even the best player on his own team haha and it's not like they ever had real competition. It's just way different than anything we have seen before and most non homers won't simply give a guy major credit for jumping to such a situation.

It is like Miami in the sense that people thought LeBron somehow shut the door on himself in the jordan argument, yet over time that was clearly not the case. Kd seems to be on the same track in the sense that if he stays crushing how he has, people will recognize that greatness.

Yes, he didn't get as much credit as other players, that's natural, same way dirk got extra credit for doing it with a relatively weak cast. But that doesn't automatically disqualify him from anything, we just have to see how it plays out

Chronz
01-13-2018, 08:19 PM
It is like Miami in the sense that people thought LeBron somehow shut the door on himself in the jordan argument, yet over time that was clearly not the case. Kd seems to be on the same track in the sense that if he stays crushing how he has, people will recognize that greatness.

Yes, he didn't get as much credit as other players, that's natural, same way dirk got extra credit for doing it with a relatively weak cast. But that doesn't automatically disqualify him from anything, we just have to see how it plays out
Except if Bron had stooped to kds level we would definitely be saying it. Brons move was defensible given the context.


This feels more like people saying Kobe will never enter the mj conversation, then watching him win even more titles and people still being like yeah, definitely still not in the conversation.

Saddletramp
01-13-2018, 09:18 PM
It is like Miami in the sense that people thought LeBron somehow shut the door on himself in the jordan argument, yet over time that was clearly not the case. Kd seems to be on the same track in the sense that if he stays crushing how he has, people will recognize that greatness.

Yes, he didn't get as much credit as other players, that's natural, same way dirk got extra credit for doing it with a relatively weak cast. But that doesn't automatically disqualify him from anything, we just have to see how it plays out

You keep conveniently forgetting that forming>joining. If Lebron would have joined the Celtics who just beat him and had recently won a championship.............

Chronz
01-13-2018, 10:12 PM
You keep conveniently forgetting that forming>joining. If Lebron would have joined the Celtics who just beat him and had recently won a championship.............
If Bron joined the Celtics, they win year 1 right?

Cal827
01-13-2018, 10:16 PM
Nah, James Harden on the other hand :D


I'll see myself out with the LT

:dance:

nastynice
01-13-2018, 10:21 PM
Except if Bron had stooped to kds level we would definitely be saying it. Brons move was defensible given the context.


This feels more like people saying Kobe will never enter the mj conversation, then watching him win even more titles and people still being like yeah, definitely still not in the conversation.

Defensible or not, the reason we all recognize lebron's greatness is because of how he performed on the court. Not because his move was defensible or not. We just have to see how kd plays and what he does. Sure, take context into consideration, I got no qualms with that, but again we just gotta see what he does on the court.

Because he is becoming legitimately unstoppable with the ball in his hands.

nastynice
01-13-2018, 10:27 PM
You keep conveniently forgetting that forming>joining. If Lebron would have joined the Celtics who just beat him and had recently won a championship.............

No, I never said anything about forming vs joining. What the **** difference does that make? How is this some sort of barometer of what shuts the door on something or not?

If that's your personal stat that you use for what disqualifies someone from getting any sort of credit for how they play, then that's great, I'm sure there's more people that think like you, cool, but that really changes nothing that I said. Really what you should do is read back how I broke down in what sense I was comparing the two, in the sense that as time went on lebron's play changed a lot of opinions people first threw out there when he made his move.

All you gotta do is let time pass, and maybe you'll be right, maybe kd will end up with an underwhelming run in golden state, or maybe you'll be wrong, maybe he will string together incredible playoff performances equivalent to some of the best we've ever seen. who knows?

Saddletramp
01-13-2018, 10:37 PM
How would it not matter? You still don't think a guy joining the best team in the league (that's been touted as the GOAT team) wouldn't have an easier time then a guy that joined two dudes and scrubs? Forget it, you're a lost cause.

Chronz
01-13-2018, 10:38 PM
Defensible or not, the reason we all recognize lebron's greatness is because of how he performed on the court. Not because his move was defensible or not. We just have to see how kd plays and what he does. Sure, take context into consideration, I got no qualms with that, but again we just gotta see what he does on the court.

Because he is becoming legitimately unstoppable with the ball in his hands.
Except you cannot remove context from any assessment of greatness. Had Bron had it similarly easy, it would have diminished his greatness as well. Fortunately Bron never sided with the enemies at hand.

I actually think kd is having one of his lesser seasons offensively and has been thoroughly outshined by curry. I can't remember the last time kd has had to do so little offensively. Maybe that's playing into his improved defense tho. Maybe I have higher standards from watching the true elites of this game but I haven't been impressed, feel like he's under achieved to be honest with you. I wonder how much of a back seat he can take.

BKLYNpigeon
01-14-2018, 12:18 AM
Klay is not your alpha type player.

doesn't really have the quickness or handles to separate, but he's the best 3 and D guy at the SG position. Second best shooter in NBA History, what more can you ask for?

Great Teammate, low maintenance, works hard, and never really misses games.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 12:23 AM
How would it not matter? You still don't think a guy joining the best team in the league (that's been touted as the GOAT team) wouldn't have an easier time then a guy that joined two dudes and scrubs? Forget it, you're a lost cause.

What does that have to do with anything? So does this mean that because of the team he joined, he already can't reach a particular status?

lol, please
01-14-2018, 12:28 AM
he's the best 3 and D guy at the SG position. Second best shooter in NBA History, what more can you ask for?

Great Teammate, low maintenance, works hard, and never really misses games.

:clap:

Saddletramp
01-14-2018, 12:31 AM
What does that have to do with anything? So does this mean that because of the team he joined, he already can't reach a particular status?

Damn kid, this has already been asked and answered multiple times in the year and a half since he sold out. Stop wasting people's time because you can't grasp what's already been talked to death.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 12:35 AM
Except you cannot remove context from any assessment of greatness. Had Bron had it similarly easy, it would have diminished his greatness as well. Fortunately Bron never sided with the enemies at hand.

I actually think kd is having one of his lesser seasons offensively and has been thoroughly outshined by curry. I can't remember the last time kd has had to do so little offensively. Maybe that's playing into his improved defense tho. Maybe I have higher standards from watching the true elites of this game but I haven't been impressed, feel like he's under achieved to be honest with you. I wonder how much of a back seat he can take.

I posted that taking context into consideration is fine, and you are replying to me "except you cannot remove context from any assessment of greatness"...? wtf ?

No, kd's a monster, tonights game shoulda showed you again, he is stepping up at the exact times we need it. All the big moments. He can literally get any shot he wants, wether or not durant scores has almost nothing to do with the defense, its almost entirely just wether or not the shot drops. Its unreal, I've never seen anything like it. His length+handle allows him to face up and pop from literally ANYWHERE HE WANTS. This dude is nuts, he's turning into something else here. He is legitimately becoming unguardable

And yes, he is in a GREAT situation, we give him the ball and tell him go get a bucket. He can absolutely hone in on all his strengths, from offensively iso'ing him w/ a spread floor to defensively using his length to cover space. So please tell me to stop removing context, I am fully aware he is on a super team.

I don't think he feels he's taking a back seat to anything, he's in a perfect situation and he is taking every advantage of it. This dude's still climbing, I can see it. Him and steph both

lol, please
01-14-2018, 12:38 AM
I posted that taking context into consideration is fine, and you are replying to me "except you cannot remove context from any assessment of greatness"...? wtf ?

No, kd's a monster, tonights game shoulda showed you again, he is stepping up at the exact times we need it. All the big moments. He can literally get any shot he wants, wether or not durant scores has almost nothing to do with the defense, its almost entirely just wether or not the shot drops. Its unreal, I've never seen anything like it. His length+handle allows him to face up and pop from literally ANYWHERE HE WANTS. This dude is nuts, he's turning into something else here. He is legitimately becoming unguardable

And yes, he is in a GREAT situation, we give him the ball and tell him go get a bucket. He can absolutely hone in on all his strengths, from offensively iso'ing him w/ a spread floor to defensively using his length to cover space. So please tell me to stop removing context, I am fully aware he is on a super team.

I don't think he feels he's taking a back seat to anything, he's in a perfect situation and he is taking every advantage of it. This dude's still climbing, I can see it. Him and steph both

https://fat.gfycat.com/BlandRedAmericanavocet.gif

nastynice
01-14-2018, 12:38 AM
Damn kid, this has already been asked and answered multiple times in the year and a half since he sold out. Stop wasting people's time because you can't grasp what's already been talked to death.

lmao, talked to death, YOU'RE the one who keeps bringing it up!

And again, that's what they said about lebron. ?comprende? Doesn't matter if durants move was weaker or more extreme, all that matter is a bunch of people said that same thing before and it didn't hold true, and they're doing it now again, and this ****in insane monster I see durant turning into in front of my eyes, yup, it may not hold true this time either.

time will tell

nastynice
01-14-2018, 12:41 AM
https://fat.gfycat.com/BlandRedAmericanavocet.gif

ah, was hoping you'd a had that elbow jay he hit tonight to push it to 3. The **** is unfair, he just goes to a spot and shoots, lmao, there's just nothing anyone can do about it. That elbow jumper and that 3 from the same angle, ****, he just keeps drilling em more and more often.

lol, please
01-14-2018, 12:48 AM
ah, was hoping you'd a had that elbow jay he hit tonight to push it to 3. The **** is unfair, he just goes to a spot and shoots, lmao, there's just nothing anyone can do about it. That elbow jumper and that 3 from the same angle, ****, he just keeps drilling em more and more often.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l0Ex86DDMemIyuD0Q/giphy.gif

BKLYNpigeon
01-14-2018, 12:50 AM
The thing is Klay is not, Low Maintenance, He's NO Maintenance.

he doesn't care where he ranks only you guys do. I think he's just happy wheres he's at and if he's recognized as an All Star caliber player.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 12:54 AM
https://media1.giphy.com/media/l0Ex86DDMemIyuD0Q/giphy.gif

the WALL!!

god bless you friend :)

nastynice
01-14-2018, 12:58 AM
The thing is Klay is not, Low Maintenance, He's NO Maintenance.

he doesn't care where he ranks only you guys do. I think he's just happy wheres he's at and if he's recognized as an All Star caliber player.

yea, he's low key sav in this respect, and you can just tell by his game too. He just does whats asked of him and lays it all out there

lol, please
01-14-2018, 01:00 AM
the WALL!!

god bless you friend :)

https://78.media.tumblr.com/210b22ae2deaba32dd3a010e8d62f54f/tumblr_or093x3y901s3gys4o1_400.gif

JasonJohnHorn
01-14-2018, 01:27 AM
Is he as good an 'all around player' as some? I would suggest that in his current situation, wiht Curry, KD, and Green doing a lot of the 'ball handling', that there isn't a lot of room for him to be the playmaker. But given how often he touches the ball (over 20 possessions a game), the fact that he turns it over less than twice is pretty impressive.

Not a great rebounder? But a decent rebounder for his position.


But what I see in the stats posted here is something you don't see wiht a lot of players: consistency. Has he improved? Well... how much can you improve when you are aleady one of the best shooters to ever play the game? He's shot over .400 from the arc every year in the league. That his historically good. And even still, he has improve. He's shooting a career best .450 right now. In a high-usage situation (over 7 three-pointers a game).

The last three seasons were his highest from inside the arc as well. All over .500. He's posting his best rebounding numbers this season. And he's a stellar defender.


If a fan can't watch a guy who shoots like that, and defenders like that, and willingly takes a subordinate role on a team to let MVP players like Curry ad KD flourish, and WIN, then I don't know how that fan can be impressed.


This guy is shooting .450 from the arc. Rebounding well. Sharing the ball. Not turning it over. Defending at an elite level. I'm not sure what else he's supposed to do.

He is AMAZING. Amazing.

Is Harden better? Is Butler better? These are subjective factors. Harden is his team's first option. Not the third option. He gets more boards. He gets more assists. But he doesn't shoot as well or defend as well. Who is better? It depends on what you value and what impresses you. They are both great. But whatever one's position is, and there is more than one legit position here, nothing can be said to suggest that Klay isn't only one of the best SGs in the league, but one of the very best shooters the league has ever seen.


We can be critical of a guy who "doesn't improve", but Wilt averaged 50 points in his third season. He never ecipsed that number, but if you knocked the first three seasons of his career off, he's still have a HOF career.

When you peform at an historically high level, it isn't easy to 'improve'. But maintaining a level of excellence season after season, and even still improving in some respect, is amazing.


Klay is an amazing shooting guard.

If somebody wants to argue a subjective point that certain players are better, that's fine because there is certainly a case to be made for guys like Harden ad Butler. But we've never seen Klay as the go-to guy like we have with Butler and Harden, so it will always be a 'what it' without a clear cut answer.


But he's great, and certainly not overrated given that he's not only never been given MVP consideration while playing at an historically amazing level, but has never even made the All-NBA second team, let along the first, and has only made the third team twice, and didn't make any All-NBA team last year. It's hard to 'over rate' somebody who so seldom gets much of a rating, and isn't considerd top 3 in his position during a season when he averages a career high, shoots over .400 from the arc and win an NBA title.


Overrated? I don't see it.

Sadds The Gr8
01-14-2018, 02:26 AM
the poll proves the OP's theory wrong...

Saddletramp
01-14-2018, 02:46 AM
lmao, talked to death, YOU'RE the one who keeps bringing it up!

And again, that's what they said about lebron. ?comprende? Doesn't matter if durants move was weaker or more extreme, all that matter is a bunch of people said that same thing before and it didn't hold true, and they're doing it now again, and this ****in insane monster I see durant turning into in front of my eyes, yup, it may not hold true this time either.

time will tell

I'm the one that keeps bringing it up? No one was talking about KD/Lebron and you posted:



It just all depends on what you're trying to rank them based off of. For example, last year KD got quite unanimous praise for his playoff run from even the most vocal opposers of his move. Because he absolutely killed it. Much like lebron in miami, when you see greatness in front of you it just doesnt matter. Remember how many people were saying **** like his titles in miami won't count, etc etc. But after seeing that type of domination, no one really sticks that weak *** argument anymore.

Golden state is still new to this situation, only 1.5 years so far, so much of how he's viewed is going to depend on how everything plays out

You just can't stop comparing the two. But have fun trying to keep equating the two.

Oh, and people weren't saying the same stuff about Lebron and KD on the same level.

GREATNESS ONE
01-14-2018, 03:02 AM
Which of these guys is Klay better than:

LeBron
KD
Curry
Harden
Kawhi
Butler
Westbrook
CP3
AD
Cousins
Wall
IT
Hayward
Griffin
Green
PG
Lillard
Embiid
Giannis
Kyrie
Drummond
Whiteside
Horford
Derozan
Lowry
Beal
CJ
Oladipo
Simmons
Kristaps
Aldridge
Towns
Jokic
Gasol
Conley

I don't think all that guys are better but I would say majority are better or right there. Young guys that I think will pass him in the next 2 years at most:

Mitchell (we may have finally found the next Wade)
Jaylen Brown
Tatum
Ingram
Wiggins
Lauri (dark horse)

After looking at everyone I would say with confidence he's in the 25-30 range but wouldn't be made at someone who has him in the 20-25 range. Any higher than that then I disagree.

Lonzo Ball & Brandon Ingram

zn23
01-14-2018, 03:12 AM
Both Tyreke Evans and Lou Williams have had better years than Klay, yet they're barely being talked about and he'll somehow make the all-star team over them. Now, that obviously has a lot to do with the fact that the Warriors are the best team in the league and they get a lot more prime time games than Clippers or Grizzlies.

Yes, he's overrated. He's a very good player, and a big factor to their success, however, he is NOT a top 5 SG in this league.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 03:26 AM
The average fan only remembers specific about super-stars. Everyone else's legacy and story fades with time.

In this case there is a specific thing (going to GS) people will remember for Kd then is what you are saying? sure. I get things fade with time but this isn't something that won't be remembered is the point.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 03:27 AM
I'm the one that keeps bringing it up? No one was talking about KD/Lebron and you posted:




You just can't stop comparing the two. But have fun trying to keep equating the two.

Oh, and people weren't saying the same stuff about Lebron and KD on the same level.

I posted in response to someone bringing up kd, along with curry klay and green.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 03:37 AM
It is like Miami in the sense that people thought LeBron somehow shut the door on himself in the jordan argument, yet over time that was clearly not the case. Kd seems to be on the same track in the sense that if he stays crushing how he has, people will recognize that greatness.

Yes, he didn't get as much credit as other players, that's natural, same way dirk got extra credit for doing it with a relatively weak cast. But that doesn't automatically disqualify him from anything, we just have to see how it plays out

I mean anyone who said that just wasn't thinking then? I dunno what you want me to say but not everyone was being that ridiculous and it doesn't apply to a far different situation. I agree it isn't the end for ?KD but it takes either a major hit/injury to Currys career or a change of scenery etc. type of change for us to really see anything other than a great player setting himself up in the goat situation ever.

We have to see how it plays out but this is another year where he isn't the best player on his team and statistically is having a pretty weak season compared to normal. Until he is playing on a team that truly needs him to be great and carry a team to win a title and faces tough adversity we won't even see close to the same situation as Lebron in Miami tbh. That needs to happen first and it seems unlikely given the gap he created in the league

JasonJohnHorn
01-14-2018, 10:40 AM
Both Tyreke Evans and Lou Williams have had better years than Klay, yet they're barely being talked about and he'll somehow make the all-star team over them. Now, that obviously has a lot to do with the fact that the Warriors are the best team in the league and they get a lot more prime time games than Clippers or Grizzlies.

Yes, he's overrated. He's a very good player, and a big factor to their success, however, he is NOT a top 5 SG in this league.

Both those guys are playing very well, and there is certainly a case to be made that they are having better individual sasons than Klay, but they are both on teams that haven't been playing consistently. In the case of the Grizzlies, they haven't been playing well at all. In the case of the Clippers, they played poorly from game five up until about 13 games ago. Their improve has been in large part due to Lou Williams play.

However, reserve All-Star appearances generally go to guys who 1) are estalished all-stars, and 2) are on winning teams. Klay has maintained a level of excellence and consistency that neither Evans nor Williams have displayed throughout their respective careers. Evans is averaging less than 20 a game, and this is his highest total since his rookie season. I've always been a fan, but I've also seen him as a guy who, largely due to circumstances, have never reached his potential. Maybe he finally is. Lou Williams. Is 31. This is likely going to be his fnest season.

I'm fine with a person making a case that either is having better individual season than Klay this year, but Klay is still having an amazing season, is nearly as well as Evans and better than Williams, is shoot 3's at a better rate than either, and is arguably a better defender than either. They both get more assists, but they are both on teams that require them to handle the ball more and don't share it with guys as good as Curry, let alone a team with Curry, KD, and Green.

Klay has sustained excellence, and is on an amazing team. You might argue that this season those guys are having better individual years, but are their teams having better seasons? And are they contributing more to their team's 'winning'? Which is, after all, the goal? Are they having better careers? And are their seasons really quantifiably better? Or is their a case for Klay? In which case, as subjective as it might be, and perhaps as unfair as it might be, his team's winning and consistent level of play, will be a factors for coaches selecting all-star reserves.

You might say Klay is not a top-five SG this year, but are there 5 shooting guards in the last who have had better careers than Klay? Who have played consistently and clearly better every year?

Scoots
01-14-2018, 10:59 AM
In this case there is a specific thing (going to GS) people will remember for Kd then is what you are saying? sure. I get things fade with time but this isn't something that won't be remembered is the point.

Casual fans will remember that he played for 2 teams, the anger some people feel will go away for the majority.

Scoots
01-14-2018, 11:03 AM
One could easily argue that Andre Roberson has contributed more to his team winning than Klay has. We don't have a great way of measuring individual defense and fans wildly over-value offense over defense (see Lou Williams over Klay).

Klay is maybe a little over-rated this year ... but he's still a very good SG among a weak group of SGs.

JasonJohnHorn
01-14-2018, 11:15 AM
He has 2 seasons in the top ten for most 3pters made, 3 in the top 20. He is 11th all-time all-time career 3pt%, and is top ten hen you disclude players whose percentages got bumped up when the NBA brought the line in for 2 years, and NONE of the guys ahead of him with the lone exceptions of Steph Curry, has taken more 3's per game than him.

He is historically one of the best shooters of all time.

And is regarded as one of the best defenders of all time.

And yet, he has never made the All-NBA first or second team, only made the All-NBA thrid team twice, and hs NEVER made an All-Defensive team.

According to the poll here, nobody even puts him in the top ten of current players.

So... 'the most overrated player in the league'? No. Even if you suggest he is overrated, he's certainly not the most overrated. Ray Allen put up less impressive shooting numbers, and played less impressive defense, and is generally regarded as one of the greatest SGs of all time; Klay doesn't even sniff the conversation and in many ways is better than Allen with respect to the things that Allen is regarded as great for doing. Allen got more boards and assists, but he didn't have to share the ball with the likes of Curry AND KD, AND Green until he got to Boston, at which time his rebounding and assist numbers were reduced to less than what Klay is doing with the Warriors.

I'm not saying Klay is better than Ray, but he his performance is certainly comprable and people seldom even make the suggestion of ranking him ahead of Ray, so I don't see how Klay is overrated.


I mean, we are talking about a SG who won and NBA title last year, while playing elite defense, posting 22+ a game, shooting over .400 from the arc, and who didn't even make an All-NBA team. I'm not sure how we frame that as being 'overrated'.

I mean... people in this thread are arguing that a guy who posts number comparable to Ray Allen isn't even a top-five SG in the league. People are suggesting he's not even a top-20 or even 26 player in this league. A guy who is recognized as an elite defender and who is shooting at an historically high percentage and volume, and people don't even feel comfortable putting him in the top 20?

I think you could actually change the title of this to 'underrated' and it would be a more interesting conversation.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 11:36 AM
In this case there is a specific thing (going to GS) people will remember for Kd then is what you are saying? sure. I get things fade with time but this isn't something that won't be remembered is the point.

Casual fans will remember that he played for 2 teams, the anger some people feel will go away for the majority.

I mean I think anyone who follows basketball and talks about it regularly will remember. Sure people who are going overboard and truly hate him might change their stance though. I think there are plenty of "casual fans" that became Warriors fans recently and sure people like that won't care but not sure why I care about what people who don't talk or follow much bball outside of the finals etc think on bball

People who care even a little about the game aren't just gonna completely forget the team he joined set the wins record and won a title the year before or the major gap in the league created though and much of this shows up on any brief look at say a bball reference even.

I think many people who like Durant just hope people will forgot how weak his move was and what it did to the league. To this day people still talk about wilts selfishness on here in comparisons despite many not even watching him live. This is far easier to see and remember.

Jamiecballer
01-14-2018, 11:56 AM
I mean I think anyone who follows basketball and talks about it regularly will remember. Sure people who are going overboard and truly hate him might change their stance though. I think there are plenty of "casual fans" that became Warriors fans recently and sure people like that won't care but not sure why I care about what people who don't talk or follow much bball outside of the finals etc think on bball

People who care even a little about the game aren't just gonna completely forget the team he joined set the wins record and won a title the year before or the major gap in the league created though and much of this shows up on any brief look at say a bball reference even.

I think many people who like Durant just hope people will forgot how weak his move was and what it did to the league. To this day people still talk about wilts selfishness on here in comparisons despite many not even watching him live. This is far easier to see and remember.Easier to remember, easier to forgive.

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mngopher35
01-14-2018, 12:08 PM
I mean I think anyone who follows basketball and talks about it regularly will remember. Sure people who are going overboard and truly hate him might change their stance though. I think there are plenty of "casual fans" that became Warriors fans recently and sure people like that won't care but not sure why I care about what people who don't talk or follow much bball outside of the finals etc think on bball

People who care even a little about the game aren't just gonna completely forget the team he joined set the wins record and won a title the year before or the major gap in the league created though and much of this shows up on any brief look at say a bball reference even.

I think many people who like Durant just hope people will forgot how weak his move was and what it did to the league. To this day people still talk about wilts selfishness on here in comparisons despite many not even watching him live. This is far easier to see and remember.Easier to remember, easier to forgive.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

People just won't really care about him anymore. When it comes to basketball discussions people won't just forget his move though either. I agree the hate will die down overall though as him and this team fade away but it doesn't mean people will just forget either.

mightybosstone
01-14-2018, 12:17 PM
He has 20 seasons in the top ten for most 3pters made, 3 in the top 20. He is 11th all-time all-time career 3pt%, and is top ten hen you disclude players whose percentages got bumped up when the NBA brought the line in for 2 years, and NONE of the guys ahead of him with the lone exceptions of Steph Curry, has taken more 3's per game than him.

He is historically one of the best shooters of all time.
Did you read my post? I give him a ton of credit for this. He's practically a lock to go down as one of the five best shooters in NBA history. But one elite skill does not make you a top 10-15 player in the league.


And is regarded as one of the best defenders of all time.
Nobody thinks this. If you think this, then you're helping prove my point.


And yet, he has never made the All-NBA first or second team, only made the All-NBA thrid team twice, and hs NEVER made an All-Defensive team.
For good reasons. Those voters got it right.


According to the poll here, nobody even puts him in the top ten of current players.
I can assure you that multiple posters on PSD in the last week have ranked him in the top 10, and others (yourself included) have ranked him in the top 15, which is still way too high. Those same posters may not be voting in this poll, and there is a noticeable lack of Warriors fans in the poll, but I assure you those people are out there.


So... 'the most overrated player in the league'? No. Even if you suggest he is overrated, he's certainly not the most overrated. Ray Allen put up less impressive shooting numbers, and played less impressive defense, and is generally regarded as one of the greatest SGs of all time; Klay doesn't even sniff the conversation and in many ways is better than Allen with respect to the things that Allen is regarded as great for doing. Allen got more boards and assists, but he didn't have to share the ball with the likes of Curry AND KD, AND Green until he got to Boston, at which time his rebounding and assist numbers were reduced to less than what Klay is doing with the Warriors.

I'm not saying Klay is better than Ray, but he his performance is certainly comprable and people seldom even make the suggestion of ranking him ahead of Ray, so I don't see how Klay is overrated.

So Allen is actually a really good comparison to Klay. Although Allen's peak and prime numbers are clearly better and he was a 22/4/4 guy for eight straight seasons, overall they're not too far from each other statistically. That being said, in his entire career, he only made two All-NBA teams in his career, and he was probably never a top 10 guy in the league, and rarely was he top 15. The best case he would have would have been those last two seasons in Seattle when he was putting up 25-26 a night, something Klay has never done.

That being said, Allen separates himself from Klay with his postseason resume later in his career. The man hit killer shot after killer shot in the playoffs, which cemented his legacy as a top 100 all-time player, and arguably top 50. Klay, on the other hand, has been pretty horrific for the most part in the postseason. He's had his moments, like the OKC series a couple of years ago, but those are few and far between.

So if Allen was never really a consistent top 10-15 guy, why should Klay be one?


I mean, we are talking about a SG who won and NBA title last year, while playing elite defense, posting 22+ a game, shooting over .400 from the arc, and who didn't even make an All-NBA team. I'm not sure how we frame that as being 'overrated'.
Winning a title doesn't make you a top 15 player. There are a lot of guys on that Warriors team who won a title who aren't top 15 players. And I framed him as being overrated based on the multitude of fans on this site (again, yourself included) who seem to consider him a top 15 guy and some of the analysts I've seen do the same.


I mean... people in this thread are arguing that a guy who posts number comparable to Ray Allen isn't even a top-five SG in the league. People are suggesting he's not even a top-20 or even 26 player in this league. A guy who is recognized as an elite defender and who is shooting at an historically high percentage and volume, and people don't even feel comfortable putting him in the top 20?

I think you could actually change the title of this to 'underrated' and it would be a more interesting conversation.
I don't think he's top 20, and I think I've provided the evidence to back that up. I was pretty thorough. So if you think you can prove otherwise, I'd love to see some legitimate evidence. The posters suggesting he's borderline top 20 are right in the wheelhouse for where he should be, IMO. So they're hardly overrating him.

Now I would disagree the posters saying he's not even a top 5 SG. I think he's 4th or 5th. He's clearly behind Harden, Butler and DeRozan for me. And I'd say he's right there with Oladipo, who's just having a much better season than him right now, but hasn't been remotely as consistent as Klay throughout his career. I'd give him the nod over McCollum, Beal and Lou Will for sure, though.

smith&wesson
01-14-2018, 12:31 PM
Heís def over rated. He essentially a 3&D guy.

tredigs
01-14-2018, 12:38 PM
Klay is not your alpha type player.

doesn't really have the quickness or handles to separate, but he's the best 3 and D guy at the SG position. Second best shooter in NBA History, what more can you ask for?

Great Teammate, low maintenance, works hard, and never really misses games.
This sums it up frankly. These attributes make him the ultimate championship winning chess piece. Klay is quietly flirting with a >20 ppg 50/40/90 season btw. Something that has been done just 5 times by 4 players: Larry Bird, Dirk, KD and Curry. KD and Curry are also in range of it this season. Boom biscuit.

Jamiecballer
01-14-2018, 12:56 PM
People just won't really care about him anymore. When it comes to basketball discussions people won't just forget his move though either. I agree the hate will die down overall though as him and this team fade away but it doesn't mean people will just forget either.Time tends to bring perspective. I think many who hold it against him will mellow

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tredigs
01-14-2018, 01:07 PM
People just won't really care about him anymore. When it comes to basketball discussions people won't just forget his move though either. I agree the hate will die down overall though as him and this team fade away but it doesn't mean people will just forget either.
Discuss the minutia all you want, but these exact same words were said about Lebron (I am on record 100 times in 2010 vehemently disagreeing). But things happen and the story evolves. Everyone already forgot or simply do not care. As caught in the moment as people are, the players dominance on the court is ultimately what dictates a legacy.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 01:12 PM
Time tends to bring perspective. I think many who hold it against him will mellow

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Depends what you mean "people holding it against him". Haters? Sure.

People won't just forget this move though is the point long term it will be something people always remember and talk about with his legacy etc. He has time to overcome how weak his move looks and his poor performances leading up to jumping ship but it will take him really taking over at an individual level.

It won't just be forgotten though suddenly down the road. It will always be obvious to even the most basic nba fans who couldn't even watch him today (again just open up bball reference quick and look). The hate will be gone but people also won't forget and I think those lacking a good perspective are the one's ignoring the obvious and trying to play it off as something that will just be forgotten over time.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 01:21 PM
Discuss the minutia all you want, but these exact same words were said about Lebron (I am on record 100 times in 2010 vehemently disagreeing). But things happen and the story evolves. Everyone already forgot or simply do not care. As caught in the moment as people are, the players dominance on the court is ultimately what dictates a legacy.

Yes and I was there telling people it was a major overreaction then too. I don't get how some people not seeing the obvious before and me pointing it out then only for it to become reality over time is gonna mean much against my points now?

What helped Lebron so much was the storylines that came to follow and the fact that his move lines up with many teams throughout history and those likely to come. This is already different than that last part and without injuries/players falling off like for the heat (wade knees/decline, bosh injury in 12 playoffs) This is far different, we haven't seen a 73 team EVER let alone an MVP jumping to one the next season. Then add in the drop off from the heat players. It is so much different than Lebron people just use this example because it's the attempt at trying to justify the situation in any way possible, this is what I was getting at about the people lacking perspective here.

I agree there is time for Durant to change the narratives but again it will take Curry falling off, him taking over to a huge extent etc. type of context that seems very unlikely. It is definitely possible and things need to play out but I haven't seen anything yet that is changing a tons of peoples minds nor does this situation look great for him given he isn't even the best player on his own team. Even that alone is just a different scenario than anything people will try to use to compare/justify.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 01:29 PM
Klay, on the other hand, has been pretty horrific for the most part in the postseason. .

what the hell..?

nastynice
01-14-2018, 01:33 PM
Yes and I was there telling people it was a major overreaction then too. I don't get how some people not seeing the obvious before and me pointing it out then only for it to become reality over time is gonna mean much against my points now?

What helped Lebron so much was the storylines that came to follow and the fact that his move lines up with many teams throughout history and those likely to come. This is already different than that last part and without injuries/players falling off like for the heat (wade knees/decline, bosh injury in 12 playoffs) This is far different, we haven't seen a 73 team EVER let alone an MVP jumping to one the next season. Then add in the drop off from the heat players. It is so much different than Lebron people just use this example because it's the attempt at trying to justify the situation in any way possible, this is what I was getting at about the people lacking perspective here.

I agree there is time for Durant to change the narratives but again it will take Curry falling off, him taking over to a huge extent etc. type of context that seems very unlikely. It is definitely possible and things need to play out but I haven't seen anything yet that is changing a tons of peoples minds nor does this situation look great for him given he isn't even the best player on his own team. Even that alone is just a different scenario than anything people will try to use to compare/justify.

I donít think we ever saw a #1, #3, and top 10 best player all hit free agency and then take pay cuts to play with each other before either. Time cured that tho, plus it was nothing close to what we thought it would be

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 01:43 PM
(null)

We have seen teams at that level before it was the how that was different. People all the time say they don't have an issue with how Durant did things and in general that will be overlooked.

Miami was put together and trying to be on the same level as other great teams. Look at Magic, bird, Jordan, Kobe etc and they all had great teams and individual players around them. It wasn't that different from tons of teams over times with a lot of talent overall just more top heavy with no depth and came together differently. I have covered the odds to win a title being similar to gs before kd. This wasn't drastically different in that sense of having competition in the league still etc.

This is far different there has never been a team compared to all time greats, winning 73 games, having a title and unanimous MVP etc adding an MVP caliber player from one of 3 other title contenders at the time. The gap was just huge and they immediately became more likely to win than every other team in the nba combined even with injury risks, no time to gel, after seeing Miami falter.

Again the people lacking perspective here are the ones trying to compare this to lebron/Miami as the same type of move to be overcome. It was very different and I have personally see you hold lebrons move against him even after multiple titles with Miami during the 2016 finals lol.

JasonJohnHorn
01-14-2018, 01:45 PM
Did you read my post? I give him a ton of credit for this. He's practically a lock to go down as one of the five best shooters in NBA history. But one elite skill does not make you a top 10-15 player in the league.


Did I say that one elite skill makes you a top 10-15 player? Strawman argument from you? Sounds like a pattern of behaviour here.



For good reasons. Those voters got it right.

I guess if they are getting it right, that means he's not overrated, but rated where he shoudl be. But that's just according to you, the person who saying he's overrated, and at the same time saying that he's being rated by the voters where he shoudl be.


I can assure you that multiple posters on PSD in the last week have ranked him in the top 10, and others (yourself included) have ranked him in the top 15, which is still way too high.

Top 15 is a legit ranking for a player like this, but the fact that the data in your poll has shonw NOBODY ranks him in top ten that is taking part in this conversation, and that I am one of only 2 people ranking him in top 15 demonstrates that he is NOT overrated. Less than 20% of those polls ranks him in the top 15%, and 0% rank him in the top ten. So... 'overrated'? No really. over 80% don't even think he's top 15, which puts him out of All-NBA ranking.



Your refusal to accept your own data and create data, argue against yourself without realizing it, and OPEN with a strawman argument (the second time in as many conversations with me) demonstrates that you are not arguing in good faith. You have a angenda. You want to prove it. You will ignore reason to do.

Next time you respond to a post, try not leading off with one of your MORONIC strawman arguments.

tredigs
01-14-2018, 01:49 PM
Yes and I was there telling people it was a major overreaction then too. I don't get how some people not seeing the obvious before and me pointing it out then only for it to become reality over time is gonna mean much against my points now?

What helped Lebron so much was the storylines that came to follow and the fact that his move lines up with many teams throughout history and those likely to come. This is already different than that last part and without injuries/players falling off like for the heat (wade knees/decline, bosh injury in 12 playoffs) This is far different, we haven't seen a 73 team EVER let alone an MVP jumping to one the next season. Then add in the drop off from the heat players. It is so much different than Lebron people just use this example because it's the attempt at trying to justify the situation in any way possible, this is what I was getting at about the people lacking perspective here.

I agree there is time for Durant to change the narratives but again it will take Curry falling off, him taking over to a huge extent etc. type of context that seems very unlikely. It is definitely possible and things need to play out but I haven't seen anything yet that is changing a tons of peoples minds nor does this situation look great for him given he isn't even the best player on his own team. Even that alone is just a different scenario than anything people will try to use to compare/justify.

No All Star ever had the chance to. THAT is why you've never seen it (and to be fair that circumstance likely never presents itself again). But rest assure, people simply will stop caring (a lot already have). Bosh and Wade were still All NBA level in his 2nd season there. And Lebron won the MVP. That's how long we cared.

Anyway, it's a dead topic and 100% irrelevant to this thread. You can have the last word.

mightybosstone
01-14-2018, 02:25 PM
Delete. I'll address this later.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 02:37 PM
No All Star ever had the chance to. THAT is why you've never seen it (and to be fair that circumstance likely never presents itself again). But rest assure, people simply will stop caring (a lot already have). Bosh and Wade were still All NBA level in his 2nd season there. And Lebron won the MVP. That's how long we cared.

Anyway, it's a dead topic and 100% irrelevant to this thread. You can have the last word.

It doesn't matter why it is hasn't happened before so much as it obviously did happen. That won't be forgotten but the little details you mention might. That's why it is ridiculous to use that situation as a comparison in the first place as if something similar is likely/probable.

There are a million differences that explain why people don't care as much though and a big one is it was obviously an over reaction from haters from the start for Lebron. They could never have an actual discussion on the topic without resorting to some B.S. That's exactly what is coming from the people trying to defend Durant now, hiding from the obvious/context.

Durant isn't as good. Durant went to a situation unlike we have ever seen before in history. Durant isn't carrying these teams. Durant isn't even the best player on his own team. We could list like 100 more but since you are done I think its obvious the point. This is drastically different than that for many many reasons and to compare it as meaningful in relation to Lebron and what happened is the viewpoint lacking perspective here. He still might be able to completely turn things around like Lebron but it will take dominating in a similar fashion and that means eliminating many of those clear cut differences which seems very unlikely right now (needing change of scenery, injury, or complete fall off from Curry). Still though people won't simply forget about this move unless something drastic changes like all of those differences disappearing.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 02:45 PM
We have seen teams at that level before it was the how that was different. People all the time say they don't have an issue with how Durant did things and in general that will be overlooked.

Miami was put together and trying to be on the same level as other great teams. Look at Magic, bird, Jordan, Kobe etc and they all had great teams and individual players around them. It wasn't that different from tons of teams over times with a lot of talent overall just more top heavy with no depth and came together differently. I have covered the odds to win a title being similar to gs before kd. This wasn't drastically different in that sense of having competition in the league still etc.

This is far different there has never been a team compared to all time greats, winning 73 games, having a title and unanimous MVP etc adding an MVP caliber player from one of 3 other title contenders at the time. The gap was just huge and they immediately became more likely to win than every other team in the nba combined even with injury risks, no time to gel, after seeing Miami falter.

Again the people lacking perspective here are the ones trying to compare this to lebron/Miami as the same type of move to be overcome. It was very different and I have personally see you hold lebrons move against him even after multiple titles with Miami during the 2016 finals lol.

So you're saying we HAVE seen 2 top 3 and a top 10 player hit free agency and take payouts to join up? When was that

And if that's not what ur saying, what's with the long post?

Again, I'm not saying there is no difference between what each player did, you and a couple posters keep dreaming up this argument in your head and replying to it. That's OK, I don't mind, but why do you guys keep quoting ME in these rants against these made up arguments?

nastynice
01-14-2018, 02:48 PM
There are a million differences that explain why people don't care as much though and a big one is it was obviously an over reaction from haters from the start for Lebron. .

Exactly... ;)

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 02:56 PM
We have seen teams at that level before it was the how that was different. People all the time say they don't have an issue with how Durant did things and in general that will be overlooked.

Miami was put together and trying to be on the same level as other great teams. Look at Magic, bird, Jordan, Kobe etc and they all had great teams and individual players around them. It wasn't that different from tons of teams over times with a lot of talent overall just more top heavy with no depth and came together differently. I have covered the odds to win a title being similar to gs before kd. This wasn't drastically different in that sense of having competition in the league still etc.

This is far different there has never been a team compared to all time greats, winning 73 games, having a title and unanimous MVP etc adding an MVP caliber player from one of 3 other title contenders at the time. The gap was just huge and they immediately became more likely to win than every other team in the nba combined even with injury risks, no time to gel, after seeing Miami falter.

Again the people lacking perspective here are the ones trying to compare this to lebron/Miami as the same type of move to be overcome. It was very different and I have personally see you hold lebrons move against him even after multiple titles with Miami during the 2016 finals lol.

So you're saying we HAVE seen 2 top 3 and a top 10 player hit free agency and take payouts to join up? When was that

And if that's not what ur saying, what's with the long post?

Again, I'm not saying there is no difference between what each player did, you and a couple posters keep dreaming up this argument in your head and replying to it. That's OK, I don't mind, but why do you guys keep quoting ME in these rants against these made up arguments?

That's the how lol. People don't care about how someone did something long term but they also won't forget the team they were on. No one even remembers kg basically said no to the celtics before they got Ray Allen. That's how a team got together but says nothing about the overall level of the team etc. We have seen Kareem magic worthy plus more on a team together. Jordan pippen rodman and a goat coach. Teams have had talent before and Miami had lack of depth, no top coach, overlapping skill sets coming together etc. gs won 73 games and a title without kd and is arguably the best/most talented team ever and was already in those discussions BEFORE he got there.

The long post was so maybe you would be able to see the obvious but again there seems to be a major disconnect between you and understanding context.

The point is this won't just be forgotten. People brought up lebron as if that's comparable and I responded saying that doesn't make sense they were obviously different.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 03:00 PM
That's the how lol. People don't care about how someone did something long term but they also won't forget the team they were on. No one even remembers kg basically said no to the celtics before they got Ray Allen. That's how a team got together but says nothing about the overall level of the team etc. We have seen Kareem magic worthy plus more on a team together. Jordan pippen rodman and a goat coach. Teams have had talent before and Miami had lack of depth, no top coach, overlapping skill sets coming together etc. gs won 73 games and a title without kd and is arguably the best/most talented team ever and was already in those discussions BEFORE he got there.

The long post was so maybe you would be able to see the obvious but again there seems to be a major disconnect between you and understanding context.

The point is this won't just be forgotten. People brought up lebron as if that's comparable and I responded saying that doesn't make sense they were obviously different.

The 73 win team was one of the best ever? Well, OKC was better than us and should have won, so that okc team is historic?

The long post is you making up imaginary arguments and responding to them

I'm not saying it will be forgotten, just as people still LeBron made a super team, my point is a players game over time changes people's opinions. I mean, duh right?

Scoots
01-14-2018, 03:21 PM
I mean I think anyone who follows basketball and talks about it regularly will remember. Sure people who are going overboard and truly hate him might change their stance though. I think there are plenty of "casual fans" that became Warriors fans recently and sure people like that won't care but not sure why I care about what people who don't talk or follow much bball outside of the finals etc think on bball

People who care even a little about the game aren't just gonna completely forget the team he joined set the wins record and won a title the year before or the major gap in the league created though and much of this shows up on any brief look at say a bball reference even.

I think many people who like Durant just hope people will forgot how weak his move was and what it did to the league. To this day people still talk about wilts selfishness on here in comparisons despite many not even watching him live. This is far easier to see and remember.

The thing is, the vast majority of people who watch the game don't care now. There are people who bet on the game, they care more about winning bets than who plays where. For them what bugs about the Warriors is that they don't know if they will care enough to play everyone and play hard from night to night. There are a huge number of people who watch only "their" team ... and of that group the only group that will remember is OKC fans (or wherever they end up when they move next).

Fans like us are very much in the minority. We'll remember, but 99 out of 100 people who attend an NBA game in 10 years won't be able to tell you much of anything about KD's "betrayal" let alone have any emotion about it.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 03:30 PM
The thing is, the vast majority of people who watch the game don't care now. There are people who bet on the game, they care more about winning bets than who plays where. For them what bugs about the Warriors is that they don't know if they will care enough to play everyone and play hard from night to night. There are a huge number of people who watch only "their" team ... and of that group the only group that will remember is OKC fans (or wherever they end up when they move next).

Fans like us are very much in the minority. We'll remember, but 99 out of 100 people who attend an NBA game in 10 years won't be able to tell you much of anything about KD's "betrayal" let alone have any emotion about it.

Sure but I mostly care about the people talking basketball and who actually follow the game and have discussions. The casual fans are people who would come in and talk about iverson top 10 player types lol. I never will really care about that.

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 03:33 PM
The 73 win team was one of the best ever? Well, OKC was better than us and should have won, so that okc team is historic?

The long post is you making up imaginary arguments and responding to them

I'm not saying it will be forgotten, just as people still LeBron made a super team, my point is a players game over time changes people's opinions. I mean, duh right?

No I simply try and explain context since you seem to fall into the category scoots mentions above based on your posts. It's whatever though not everyone really follows the nba much outside their team etc so I get why you and other Warriors fans seem to get over the top and can't fully talk about the context etc.

No other team in history has won 73 games lol and wasn't Curry injured then? The amount of back and forth while avoiding context from some is why I have to try and explain more in depth. Unfortunately I am not even sure you read my posts based on the responses.

Cal827
01-14-2018, 03:36 PM
As someone said, he's the perfect guy as a secondary star in a 1-2 or 1a 1b 1c situation. His shooting is elite (next to Durant and Curry, he might be the best shooter), and he's probably the best 1 on 1 defender on the Warriors (next to maybe Iggy).

I think he'd be in the 15-20 range, right next to Jimmy Butler. Between the two, it just depends what you want more; a better shooter, or better playmaker.

nastynice
01-14-2018, 03:46 PM
No I simply try and explain context since you seem to fall into the category scoots mentions above based on your posts. It's whatever though not everyone really follows the nba much outside their team etc so I get why you and other Warriors fans seem to get over the top and can't fully talk about the context etc.

No other team in history has won 73 games lol and wasn't Curry injured then? The amount of back and forth while avoiding context from some is why I have to try and explain more in depth. Unfortunately I am not even sure you read my posts based on the responses.

Seriously bro, it's not that complicated. LeBron was in a situation that everyone already closed the book in him being this or that, and now kd is in a similar situation. In LeBron case, things played out differently than everyone imagined, they didn't win 8 titles like they claimed and no book was closed on LeBron

I get that you keep bringing up context, but do you get how it literally makes no differences in regard to the point I'm making? My point isn't that the team they joined is the same, so I don't understand why you keep arguing with Casper the invisible ghost about that, my point is that you just have to see how things play out before you can say he can be considered this or that. Does that make sense?

I don't even get what ur trying to argue me about. Yall keep bringing in all kindsa kd hate baggage, stay trying to inject that baggage into every convo

mngopher35
01-14-2018, 03:59 PM
No I simply try and explain context since you seem to fall into the category scoots mentions above based on your posts. It's whatever though not everyone really follows the nba much outside their team etc so I get why you and other Warriors fans seem to get over the top and can't fully talk about the context etc.

No other team in history has won 73 games lol and wasn't Curry injured then? The amount of back and forth while avoiding context from some is why I have to try and explain more in depth. Unfortunately I am not even sure you read my posts based on the responses.

Seriously bro, it's not that complicated. LeBron was in a situation that everyone already closed the book in him being this or that, and now kd is in a similar situation. In LeBron case, things played out differently than everyone imagined, they didn't win 8 titles like they claimed and no book was closed on LeBron

I get that you keep bringing up context, but do you get how it literally makes no differences in regard to the point I'm making? My point isn't that the team they joined is the same, so I don't understand why you keep arguing with Casper the invisible ghost about that, my point is that you just have to see how things play out before you can say he can be considered this or that. Does that make sense?

I don't even get what ur trying to argue me about. Yall keep bringing in all kindsa kd hate baggage, stay trying to inject that baggage into every convo

They didn't play out differently than I imagined at all lol. My point is I am using that same type of context etc to point out what the other side is missing like I did then with lebron. It's very obvious stuff that directly plays into why that's unlikely to happen in any sort of similar manner for kd.

I am not saying it's impossible not have I ever said his legacy is for sure over like they had etc. just like with lebron I am going to point out obvious context people are ignoring it making a point. I have only been saying people won't simply forget what kd did, even in a similar way as lebron, UNLESS he proves himself in a similar fashion and not ignoring the context. Seems very unlikely without injury or drop off from curry etc.

tredigs
01-14-2018, 04:33 PM
It doesn't matter why it is hasn't happened before so much as it obviously did happen. That won't be forgotten but the little details you mention might. That's why it is ridiculous to use that situation as a comparison in the first place as if something similar is likely/probable.

There are a million differences that explain why people don't care as much though and a big one is it was obviously an over reaction from haters from the start for Lebron. They could never have an actual discussion on the topic without resorting to some B.S. That's exactly what is coming from the people trying to defend Durant now, hiding from the obvious/context.

Durant isn't as good. Durant went to a situation unlike we have ever seen before in history. Durant isn't carrying these teams. Durant isn't even the best player on his own team. We could list like 100 more but since you are done I think its obvious the point. This is drastically different than that for many many reasons and to compare it as meaningful in relation to Lebron and what happened is the viewpoint lacking perspective here. He still might be able to completely turn things around like Lebron but it will take dominating in a similar fashion and that means eliminating many of those clear cut differences which seems very unlikely right now (needing change of scenery, injury, or complete fall off from Curry). Still though people won't simply forget about this move unless something drastic changes like all of those differences disappearing.

All correct. Durant is also not the self proclaimed "CHOSEN ONE" nor even pretends to be more than he is on this team. Yet, still a legend on the court.

Scoots
01-14-2018, 06:01 PM
Sure but I mostly care about the people talking basketball and who actually follow the game and have discussions. The casual fans are people who would come in and talk about iverson top 10 player types lol. I never will really care about that.

Yes, but that's the point. The majority of people forget about the minutiae with time ... the nuts like us will remember and we'll always care about the random things we choose to care about :)

mightybosstone
01-14-2018, 06:58 PM
Did I say that one elite skill makes you a top 10-15 player? Strawman argument from you? Sounds like a pattern of behaviour here.
You made essentially two points backing up Thompson: 3-point shooting and defense. If he was just good at defense, nobody on the planet would say he was anything close to an All-Star, much less a top 10-15 player. So whether you want it to or not, the basis for your case for Thompson relies pretty heavily on him as an all-time great shooter.

Not a strawman argument. You can say that word all you want, but you clearly don't know how to use and simply fall back on it like a crutch when you don't have leg to stand on in a debate.


I guess if they are getting it right, that means he's not overrated, but rated where he shoudl be. But that's just according to you, the person who saying he's overrated, and at the same time saying that he's being rated by the voters where he shoudl be.
You're connecting things that are unrelated to each other. Him getting or not getting recognition with All-NBA teams or All-Defensive teams doesn't really have anything to do with him properly being rated by fans or analysts. I'm not talking about awards, I'm talking the court of public opinion here. The opinions of voters and fans and analysts I've heard rave about the guy all season long. That's who this thread is meant for, and I thought I made that fairly clear in my original post, which you clearly didn't read.


Top 15 is a legit ranking for a player like this, but the fact that the data in your poll has shonw NOBODY ranks him in top ten that is taking part in this conversation, and that I am one of only 2 people ranking him in top 15 demonstrates that he is NOT overrated. Less than 20% of those polls ranks him in the top 15%, and 0% rank him in the top ten. So... 'overrated'? No really. over 80% don't even think he's top 15, which puts him out of All-NBA ranking.
You're talking about a sample size of one poll taken by 14 people on an internet forum over the course of 24 hours. This isn't scientific, chief. The fact that I've clearly framed this whole thing in a way to make my case that Klay's overrated could have a huge influence on who votes and how they vote. A poster who comes in with a certain mindset of Klay might have a general sense of where they think he should be, but change their mind based off other results or the opinions of posters within the thread.

You clearly don't know how to read data or polls properly...


Your refusal to accept your own data and create data, argue against yourself
What data? The poll? The poll is nothing.I just threw it up there to get a general sense for how voters felt and encourage activity in the thread. I'm not "refusing to accept" anything. Regardless of what a ****** little poll on PSD says, that doesn't change the fact that there are a ton of fans and analysts out there who overrate the hell out of this guy, and you've proved my point in this thread when you literally did just that.


without realizing it, and OPEN with a strawman argument (the second time in as many conversations with me) demonstrates that you are not arguing in good faith. You have a angenda. You want to prove it. You will ignore reason to do.

Next time you respond to a post, try not leading off with one of your MORONIC strawman arguments.

Classic JHH. I spent literally hours working on this to simply layout my opinion. Just because I was thinking about it this weekend, I don't have an outlet for sports writing like I used to do and I wanted to write something because I thought it would be fun and I like writing about sports. You literally don't read a single ****ing word that I write beyond the headline (classic American news consumer, btw), then write a short novel explaining why he isn't overrated with hardly any context or research whatsoever.

And in classic JHH fashion, when I counter your argument, you again write an overly long response with no evidence, say I'm using a "strawman" argument and am "arguing in bad faith," and then insult me for good measure.

I would honestly prefer you not respond to my posts or threads at all at this point, TBH. I wanted this to be something where I could develop some back and forth between posters and have good, logical arguments about a player's value and worth. You clearly have no ****ing clue how to do that. So let's just say we agree to disagree about everything moving forward, and you and I will both be happier on this site.

(Oh, and don't accidentally close the tab where you have "strawman argument" Googled when you respond to this post. God knows you'll need to look up that definition again. At least you're willing to do SOME level of research, right? ;))

mightybosstone
01-14-2018, 07:02 PM
As someone said, he's the perfect guy as a secondary star in a 1-2 or 1a 1b 1c situation. His shooting is elite (next to Durant and Curry, he might be the best shooter), and he's probably the best 1 on 1 defender on the Warriors (next to maybe Iggy).

I think he'd be in the 15-20 range, right next to Jimmy Butler. Between the two, it just depends what you want more; a better shooter, or better playmaker.

See, I don't see how Butler and Thompson really belong in the same conversation. Sure, Thompson is the better 3-point shooter, but Butler does literally everything else better. He's a more versatile offensive player who can more effectively get to the rim and foul line, and he's the superior playmaker. On top of that, I think most fans and analysts would consider him the superior defender, and he's simply far more productive across the board.

Also, despite being the better perimeter shooter, Thompson isn't significantly more efficient as a scorer. His TS% is like 1 percent higher than Butler since Butler gets to the line like five times as often. Butler's advanced numbers also blow Thompson out of the water.

For me, Thompson is just clearly a tier below Butler.

mightybosstone
01-14-2018, 07:05 PM
what the hell..?

OK. But don't just say "what the hell?" and leave it at that. Actually counter what I'm saying. What evidence do you have to suggest he's actually good in the postseason? Let's make an actual debate out of this. Don't just reply with hyperbole and ambiguous three-word responses...

Chronz
01-14-2018, 09:32 PM
Wtf am I reading, Ray Allen ***** on klay all day man . Their numbers are not close, Ray would crush it in gs system

Chronz
01-14-2018, 09:35 PM
No All Star ever had the chance to. THAT is why you've never seen it (and to be fair that circumstance likely never presents itself again). But rest assure, people simply will stop caring (a lot already have). Bosh and Wade were still All NBA level in his 2nd season there. And Lebron won the MVP. That's how long we cared.

Anyway, it's a dead topic and 100% irrelevant to this thread. You can have the last word.

All stars saying no to favorable situations because they wanted to lead their own has happened. That an even more egregious version of what they initially detested happened, doesn't help your case.

Chronz
01-14-2018, 09:37 PM
Discuss the minutia all you want, but these exact same words were said about Lebron (I am on record 100 times in 2010 vehemently disagreeing). But things happen and the story evolves. Everyone already forgot or simply do not care. As caught in the moment as people are, the players dominance on the court is ultimately what dictates a legacy.

Those arguments were easily destroyed and then vindicated in the following years. I'm with gopher, the odds of that happening in gs with so much peak talent at his disposal will always be a differentiating factor between he and every other great to ever play

Chronz
01-14-2018, 09:42 PM
I posted that taking context into consideration is fine, and you are replying to me "except you cannot remove context from any assessment of greatness"...? wtf ?

No, kd's a monster, tonights game shoulda showed you again, he is stepping up at the exact times we need it. All the big moments. He can literally get any shot he wants, wether or not durant scores has almost nothing to do with the defense, its almost entirely just wether or not the shot drops. Its unreal, I've never seen anything like it. His length+handle allows him to face up and pop from literally ANYWHERE HE WANTS. This dude is nuts, he's turning into something else here. He is legitimately becoming unguardable

And yes, he is in a GREAT situation, we give him the ball and tell him go get a bucket. He can absolutely hone in on all his strengths, from offensively iso'ing him w/ a spread floor to defensively using his length to cover space. So please tell me to stop removing context, I am fully aware he is on a super team.

I don't think he feels he's taking a back seat to anything, he's in a perfect situation and he is taking every advantage of it. This dude's still climbing, I can see it. Him and steph both

You don't get context.

Not buying the b's you peddle on KD when I've already seen him utterly falter when asked to truly carry a super stars responsibility. But yes on this team, he gets to look like one of the best.

Then if you understand context, explain why I should be impressed when I've seen true goats carry?

Lol you're blind to your own team then. Curry might just be having another peak season and kds statistical decline and how mediocre the team looks without curry has been on full display for anyone not bedazzled by mundane aspects of Iso ball

Chronz
01-14-2018, 09:48 PM
Yes, but that's the point. The majority of people forget about the minutiae with time ... the nuts like us will remember and we'll always care about the random things we choose to care about :)
Minutiae? Lol, you mean like the significance of being a historical core? Lmfao really? When does that happen? I've been waiting for that to die out for Bill Russell forever now and his pales by comparison now.

I guess your point is people will forget context when its not historical. Great, so now we just need the perfect storm of injuries, luck, dominance, cap space and a potential goat level player to lose all competitive fervor and join a team that makes those warriors look like ho hum 70 win squads.

Should be any day now right? Lmfao

Chronz
01-14-2018, 09:50 PM
Exactly... ;)
Who do you think had/has more haters? I think it was definitely 2010s Bron because kd was seen more like a lonely mommas boy than a flamboyant superstar

Scoots
01-14-2018, 10:00 PM
Minutiae? Lol, you mean like the significance of being a historical core? Lmfao really? When does that happen? I've been waiting for that to die out for Bill Russell forever now and his pales by comparison now.

I guess your point is people will forget context when its not historical. Great, so now we just need the perfect storm of injuries, luck, dominance, cap space and a potential goat level player to lose all competitive fervor and join a team that makes those warriors look like ho hum 70 win squads.

Should be any day now right? Lmfao

No. The point is that MOST PEOPLE don't give a crap. You will never forget, but MOST PEOPLE who watched an NBA game last year have already forgotten, and even if they remember they probably don't care.

Chronz
01-14-2018, 10:18 PM
No. The point is that MOST PEOPLE don't give a crap. You will never forget, but MOST PEOPLE who watched an NBA game last year have already forgotten, and even if they remember they probably don't care.
So nobody who posts online? So basically the ones that don't care are the ones who think of the game the least? In other words, not any real adult fan of a team or league will care?

Why would we care what those people think? Isn't basketball culture carried on by basketball fans and not just normies?

Chronz
01-14-2018, 10:22 PM
Let's define care. I only care so much as I care about facts. Those same people who don't care about what kd did are the same ones who don't care what any NBA player did, they're completely and utterly content in their ignorance and only want to watch a kids game. That's fine, just don't point to those people as a Bastian of basketball intellect. Those people Are the ones with less to speak on, those who consider themselves students of the game will never forget. That's how I'm defining care

nastynice
01-14-2018, 10:42 PM
You don't get context.

Not buying the b's you peddle on KD when I've already seen him utterly falter when asked to truly carry a super stars responsibility. But yes on this team, he gets to look like one of the best.

Then if you understand context, explain why I should be impressed when I've seen true goats carry?

Lol you're blind to your own team then. Curry might just be having another peak season and kds statistical decline and how mediocre the team looks without curry has been on full display for anyone not bedazzled by mundane aspects of Iso ball

Curry is without a doubt having a peak season my statistically enamored friend.

Yea the team is definitely run by curry, of course there will be a decline when he's out, but kd has been doing exactly what we needed him to do during the stretch, be unstoppable. Iso unstoppable, haha, whatever you wanna call it. You don't think kd is having a peak season too?

I think both are, and I think it will start becoming more evident in the playoffs. Let's see..

nastynice
01-14-2018, 10:44 PM
Who do you think had/has more haters? I think it was definitely 2010s Bron because kd was seen more like a lonely mommas boy than a flamboyant superstar

Lebron without a doubt, how is this a question? lol

Jamiecballer
01-14-2018, 11:18 PM
Depends what you mean "people holding it against him". Haters? Sure.

Respectfully I'm not sure how you tell the difference between the haters and the people who brutally criticize his character based on their assumptions of his motivations. The event itself is benign. That's why I say that it will all fade away eventually. When people discuss Magic all I ever hear is debate over his exploits and how his numbers stack up. It never comes down to how good his teammates were - same for Russell, Jordan. People who temper Russell's greatness don't generally do so by minimizing his rings or sqwaking endlessly about his great teammates. They simply point out his offensive limitations in comparison to others of more recent eras. It comes down to what he could do on the court. I don't expect it to be different for Durant. When people can't justify their emotional response anymore it won't matter to many people.

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Scoots
01-15-2018, 12:24 AM
So nobody who posts online? So basically the ones that don't care are the ones who think of the game the least? In other words, not any real adult fan of a team or league will care?

Why would we care what those people think? Isn't basketball culture carried on by basketball fans and not just normies?

I was with you at the start there, but I know several people who consider themselves fans of specific teams, but they never post online about them. We are the crazies ... most people don't share our mania ... that doesn't make them worthless :)

Chronz
01-15-2018, 12:53 AM
Curry is without a doubt having a peak season my statistically enamored friend.

Yea the team is definitely run by curry, of course there will be a decline when he's out, but kd has been doing exactly what we needed him to do during the stretch, be unstoppable. Iso unstoppable, haha, whatever you wanna call it. You don't think kd is having a peak season too?

I think both are, and I think it will start becoming more evident in the playoffs. Let's see..

Lol don't misconstrue an adequate understanding of statistics for being enamored with them. I'm just not COMPLETELY ignorant to them the way many seem to be.

There is more than just a decline, kd isn't holding up his end of this superstar bargain so I KNOW exactly how sad of a season he's having offensively. He's been the least efficient in a long time and the dubs are losing more than they have in a long time, relatively speaking, their lofty standards have fallen and it's coincided with a drop from everyone but curry. KD can win his rings, nobody will give a **** of it comes like this.

Like I've been saying, year one was cute, but curry is sick of not getting his due as the games best player imo. KD will never look as unstoppable again

Chronz
01-15-2018, 01:03 AM
I was with you at the start there, but I know several people who consider themselves fans of specific teams, but they never post online about them. We are the crazies ... most people don't share our mania ... that doesn't make them worthless :)
Really? I don't meet many fans of a team who didn't at least lurk forums. The younger generation in particular , what with all our ama's and all. The ones who used to escape it I think get trapped by other social medias. But basically my thought applies to anyone with enough conviction to make a semi public declaration online.
eventually, everyone falls for the trap and if they don't, its prolly because they don't know enough and those people are truly worthless to the game imo.

NetsPaint
01-15-2018, 01:24 AM
Klay can get on streaks just as scary as Curry. How many other players can do that? From what I know, only Harden and Durant. Klay can do it without even dribbling.

Chronz
01-15-2018, 01:27 AM
Klay can get on streaks just as scary as Curry. How many other players can do that? From what I know, only Harden and Durant. Klay can do it without even dribbling.
He can also turn to dog **** in a playoff series

NetsPaint
01-15-2018, 01:30 AM
He can also turn to dog **** in a playoff series
So you're saying he's better than Harden.

mrblisterdundee
01-15-2018, 02:13 AM
We can't properly judge Klay Thompson given his situation. I'd love to see him as a team's first option, or even a duel first like Durant and Curry. He's been hyper-efficient and shot over 40 percent from three every season. Maybe his percentages dip a bit, but I bet he could score 25 to 30 points per game with decent efficiency as the featured option.

Chronz
01-15-2018, 02:37 AM
Respectfully I'm not sure how you tell the difference between the haters and the people who brutally criticize his character based on their assumptions of his motivations. The event itself is benign. That's why I say that it will all fade away eventually. When people discuss Magic all I ever hear is debate over his exploits and how his numbers stack up. It never comes down to how good his teammates were - same for Russell, Jordan. People who temper Russell's greatness don't generally do so by minimizing his rings or sqwaking endlessly about his great teammates. They simply point out his offensive limitations in comparison to others of more recent eras. It comes down to what he could do on the court. I don't expect it to be different for Durant. When people can't justify their emotional response anymore it won't matter to many people.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Lol. Russell supporting cast is always brought up as a distinguishing factor, his offensive game less so unless it's under the scope of how he compares to guys who had to carry a greater load, which again boils down to his cast. I mean I don't know what crowds you debate with but it's come up since day 1 with (coincidentally) warrior legends like nate and Rick berry. It's literally been the mainstay of the debate between Wilt and Russell and I don't know if you've noticed but that argument has only grown larger in number today as Russell's stature has come into question.

Not sure what magic has to do with this

Chronz
01-15-2018, 02:39 AM
So you're saying he's better than Harden.
Nah, at least when harden no shows, he's still influencing the game in more ways and he's never no showed as pathetically as klay has. His no shows are pretty bad tho, I'll admit that. It's like watching the dog **** era for sgs if you want to strike some middle ground here

nastynice
01-15-2018, 03:02 AM
He can also turn to dog **** in a playoff series

Not really, solid defender that allows our switching while still being a deep threat to help space out their defense. He's actually the type of player that can still offer a lot even when on a cold streak

mngopher35
01-15-2018, 03:13 AM
All correct. Durant is also not the self proclaimed "CHOSEN ONE" nor even pretends to be more than he is on this team. Yet, still a legend on the court.

I agree with that and they are very different.

mngopher35
01-15-2018, 03:16 AM
Yes, but that's the point. The majority of people forget about the minutiae with time ... the nuts like us will remember and we'll always care about the random things we choose to care about :)

Oh ok I think I get what you mean. Ya I mostly care about people invested a little in basketball at least and watch 25? plus games a year follow it a little more in some way even if basic etc. won't forget. I guess that's the people I generally mean in a basketball discussion haha but sure that's true then.

Chronz
01-15-2018, 04:35 AM
Not really, solid defender that allows our switching while still being a deep threat to help space out their defense. He's actually the type of player that can still offer a lot even when on a cold streak

No player is disallowed from turning to dog **** just because they provide the small things in winning that they've usually supplied anyways. Klay gets no pass for his steep decline.

Chronz
01-15-2018, 04:38 AM
I agree with that and they are very different.
You think? Remember when kd used to hype himself up? I'm tired of being second was literally his marketing campaign. When he couldn't rise above it he joined curry, dropped that Nike ad that lasted literally less than 24 hours and hasn't been seen since. I miss the kd that at least tried

Mave1002
01-15-2018, 06:14 AM
He'll be the most underrated Laker in history.

#2019

Chronz
01-15-2018, 06:28 AM
The days of kd fans pumping their chest has never begun. Coward scared of proving it

Scoots
01-15-2018, 11:46 AM
Oh ok I think I get what you mean. Ya I mostly care about people invested a little in basketball at least and watch 25? plus games a year follow it a little more in some way even if basic etc. won't forget. I guess that's the people I generally mean in a basketball discussion haha but sure that's true then.

My mother watches probably 65 games a year ... but she honestly doesn't think about it a minute after the game is over to the start of the next one. I have a friend who has all the gear and season tickets for the Rockets but he can't answer any but the simplest questions about the team. All of the women I know who go to and watch bball like when "their" team wins and enjoy the game and know how the game is played so they consider themselves serious fans ... but they don't have any idea that there are actual "plays" called in basketball nor care about which player left as a free agent. I think we just slowly start to think everyone is like us. :)

nastynice
01-15-2018, 12:21 PM
No player is disallowed from turning to dog **** just because they provide the small things in winning that they've usually supplied anyways. Klay gets no pass for his steep decline.

Haha, ok bro, we ran thru em at 16-1, we musta done that by having all our players turn to dog ****

I wonder why that formula donít work for the clippers..

mngopher35
01-15-2018, 12:35 PM
Oh ok I think I get what you mean. Ya I mostly care about people invested a little in basketball at least and watch 25? plus games a year follow it a little more in some way even if basic etc. won't forget. I guess that's the people I generally mean in a basketball discussion haha but sure that's true then.

My mother watches probably 65 games a year ... but she honestly doesn't think about it a minute after the game is over to the start of the next one. I have a friend who has all the gear and season tickets for the Rockets but he can't answer any but the simplest questions about the team. All of the women I know who go to and watch bball like when "their" team wins and enjoy the game and know how the game is played so they consider themselves serious fans ... but they don't have any idea that there are actual "plays" called in basketball nor care about which player left as a free agent. I think we just slowly start to think everyone is like us. :)

No i fully understand not everyone is into sports etc that's why I was saying basketball fans who watch and talk about the sport regularly. People who follow and care about the sport obviously won't just forget a move like this. People who don't remember who won fmvp the first time with Warriors already are obviously not gonna remember any of this even 10 years from now haha.

I just don't care what those people are going to remember cause most of them barely even know who he is outside of just name (unless the Warriors are the one team they watch) lol.

mngopher35
01-15-2018, 12:51 PM
I agree with that and they are very different.
You think? Remember when kd used to hype himself up? I'm tired of being second was literally his marketing campaign. When he couldn't rise above it he joined curry, dropped that Nike ad that lasted literally less than 24 hours and hasn't been seen since. I miss the kd that at least tried

Well Durant just had his own issues but they were different. Like you say with Durant he wasn't already considered the best he wanted to be though. That is probably what helped lead to his move to gs etc too in the end sure. He has been the guy wanting to be "number one" and get that praise but couldn't/wasn't.

I was just saying it's different than lebron and how he has always been seen/treated. He's always been expected to be #1 and even titles himself because he buys in and is cocky. He wouldn't say or expect not to be a leader etc like Durant because he feels it's expected of him to go out there and do it (he would hate following someone else's lead probably and not being in control of the game). Not better or worse necessarily just different.

THE MTL
01-15-2018, 12:56 PM
I would love to see how Klay would do as the man on his team or even as a true 2nd option. I believe he can be Top 10 and probably score close to 30ppg. But we may never know

bigmac8675
01-15-2018, 08:27 PM
I've consistently placed Klay anywhere from #15-25 over the last 3-4 years. He's a tremendous defender, plays that 3rd option role great, is a main cog in an unbelievable team/unit. Oh... and the guy practically never misses a game.

bigmac8675
01-15-2018, 08:28 PM
I would love to see how Klay would do as the man on his team or even as a true 2nd option. I believe he can be Top 10 and probably score close to 30ppg. But we may never know

This is true. At times I could see him being THE guy on a team and dominate. Other times I don't know if he could do it consistently enough. Hopefully we never find out lol

Jamiecballer
01-15-2018, 08:42 PM
Lol. Russell supporting cast is always brought up as a distinguishing factor, his offensive game less so unless it's under the scope of how he compares to guys who had to carry a greater load, which again boils down to his cast. I mean I don't know what crowds you debate with but it's come up since day 1 with (coincidentally) warrior legends like nate and Rick berry. It's literally been the mainstay of the debate between Wilt and Russell and I don't know if you've noticed but that argument has only grown larger in number today as Russell's stature has come into question.

Not sure what magic has to do with thisI figured you would chime in because you are the one person I know who brings it up regularly. My experience on this site has been that people always end up coming back to capabilities and what the player produced. Admittedly I find the debates surrounding the geezers a little tough to digest but that's what I have seen and read on here.

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FlashBolt
01-15-2018, 09:20 PM
I wouldn't say he is overrated and it certainly isn't his fault that he's sacrificing for the rest of the team. Could he do more? Probably not. But we don't know. If I am on a championship contending team and needed a sidekick, Klay is one of the guys I would choose because he doesn't need to pound a ball. Probably the best 3&D player in the league right now. Not overrated and maybe a bit underrated.

ewing
01-15-2018, 11:51 PM
I really like Klay. As good as he is i surprised we havenít seen more explosions from him when it counts


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europagnpilgrim
01-16-2018, 12:19 AM
He's not overrated to me by the mass media, maybe by bay area/west coast folks but I don't have him in my top ten best players, but he does play above average defense and is as good as a shooter on the catch as any on ever

I think if he had to he could score off the dribble drive more but its not needed so he just plays his role to a T, to me he would be overrated if the media experts were trying to shove it down your throat, similar to how they are trying to do that guy in Milwaukee and promote him big, though he is delivering his team and range shot has miles to go, if Klay was on the Bucks with freak I could see him getting 24-25ppg pretty easily, minus J Parker that is because the big 3 would be Bledose/GF/Klay

prior to arrival of KD he was underrated especially the way he could mask for Curry and guard the more lethal backcourt player, combo guard defending skills are pretty nice, and most important from what I watch is that he gives effort for most part of the game on that end which he can expend with the talent surrounding him, makes it easy

jason
01-16-2018, 12:30 AM
I wouldn't say he is overrated and it certainly isn't his fault that he's sacrificing for the rest of the team. Could he do more? Probably not. But we don't know. If I am on a championship contending team and needed a sidekick, Klay is one of the guys I would choose because he doesn't need to pound a ball. Probably the best 3&D player in the league right now. Not overrated and maybe a bit underrated.

Klay is in a weird spot where he could be underrated or overrated based on who you ask. He doesn't have the handles to be the main guy but like you said is one of the best sidekick/teammate you can ask for

JasonJohnHorn
01-16-2018, 01:32 PM
And in classic JHH fashion, when I counter your argument, you again write an overly long response with no evidence, say I'm using a "strawman" argument and am "arguing in bad faith," and then insult me for good measure.

I would honestly prefer you not respond to my posts or threads at all at this point, TBH. I wanted this to be something where I could develop some back and forth between posters and have good, logical arguments about a player's value and worth. You clearly have no ****ing clue how to do that. So let's just say we agree to disagree about everything moving forward, and you and I will both be happier on this site.

(Oh, and don't accidentally close the tab where you have "strawman argument" Googled when you respond to this post. God knows you'll need to look up that definition again. At least you're willing to do SOME level of research, right? ;))

Look mightybosstone. I like you. I do. You are smart, you often offer great opinions, and you often provide thorough analysis. But you use poor logic in many instances.

What do you want me to say? You use a strawman argument, mischaracterize what I say, and I am supposed to say what?

Like here... you say you 'counter my argument'. You didn't. You created and argument that wasn't consistent with mine, and then argued against it. One skill isn't generally enough to get a All-Star or All-NBA spots (though Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman are examples of guys who did). But I didn't argue that or that Klay only has one skill.

I also didn't insult you. I called your use of a strawman argument moronic, not you as a person. That is another strawman argument. I attack the logic itself, and you frame it as an ad hominem. Which is actually a tactic you yourself used with your Google/tab comment.

Focus on the arguments at hand and I'll give you a thoughtful response. Mischaracterize my argument, and I'll call you out on it. You can say 'classic JJH' all you want, because it is typical of me to call people out for using logical fallacies. Apparently it is typical of you to use them. I know what side I'm on.

Is Klay the most overrated? Obviously not. He's only made to All-NBA third teams and most people he won't even rank him top 15, and nobody ranks him top 10. It's pretty clear what the answer to this question is. Even if he is overrated, he's certainly not the most overrated, and as you said, voters actually 'got it right' with respect to Klay, so how is he even being overrated?


Stay on point, lean on your analysis, and don't mischaracterized other people's arguments. If you do that, your thorough analysis will shine through and I'll be happy to have a back and forth with you.

Use logical fallacies, I'll call you out on it, and we'll get nowhere while you try to dismiss a legit criticism by saying it's typical of me while failing to realize that it is typical of you to weigh down your strong analytical skill with binary, reactionary comments and logical fallacies.

Respectfully.

nastynice
01-16-2018, 02:05 PM
You created and argument that wasn't consistent with mine, and then argued against it. .

lol, there's like 4 people here that stay doing that.

Just wait, next positive thing you say about klay will be rebuked with, what lebron did is diff than kd, lol!

WestCoastSportz
01-16-2018, 02:05 PM
Thompson is severely overrated by Warriors' fans. He's not a star player. He's Kyle Korver 2.0. Klay isn't a good ball handler, passer or rebounder. He can't create his own shot on a consistent basis. He's not quick enough to get by people and when he does, he's not athletic enough to finish at the rim. All I keep hearing is how great Klay's defense is and that only comes from Warrior's fans. Because the last time I checked, Klay hasn't even made an NBA All Defensive 2nd team which had guys like Tony Allen, Danny Green and Andre Roberson on it. So the media doesn't think much of his defense either.

You take away Klay's ability to catch and shoot the three pointer and he's rendered useless on the offensive end. He averages 1.3 free throws a game. That should tell you all you need about his game. You put Korver on this team and let him shoot 10-13 three pointers in a game and I think he can average 20 points per game as well.

nastynice
01-16-2018, 02:13 PM
well klay's certainly underrated by this guy ^^

KnicksorBust
01-16-2018, 03:18 PM
Players that are better than Klay:

Lebron
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Harden (5)
Cousins
ADavis
Giannis
Westbrook
Wall (10)
Derozan
Kyrie
Lillard
Butler
George (15)
Embiid
Towns
Porzingis
Aldridge
Oladipo (20)

After that I think Klay is clearly in that 20-25 range with Oladipo, Beal, etc.

He is one of the 5 best shooters in the world and is a great defender. Sign me up for that all day everyday.

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 05:40 PM
It just all depends on what you're trying to rank them based off of. For example, last year KD got quite unanimous praise for his playoff run from even the most vocal opposers of his move. Because he absolutely killed it. Much like lebron in miami, when you see greatness in front of you it just doesnt matter. Remember how many people were saying **** like his titles in miami won't count, etc etc. But after seeing that type of domination, no one really sticks that weak *** argument anymore.

Golden state is still new to this situation, only 1.5 years so far, so much of how he's viewed is going to depend on how everything plays out


lol, there's like 4 people here that stay doing that.

Just wait, next positive thing you say about klay will be rebuked with, what lebron did is diff than kd, lol!

To be clear he wasn't randomly bringing up KD/Lebron comparisons in this thread in the same way you did. I simply talked about Klay and his situation on GS and how they get ranked all over because of it, YOU brought this out of nowhere. Obviously when you don't bring up some ridiculous point ignoring context no one will have to explain obvious context lol.

Saddletramp
01-16-2018, 05:46 PM
^ I saw that second quote and just decided to let it go. He doesn't get it and it's not worth conversing about anymore. If he's that clueless then he's just that clueless.

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 05:50 PM
Players that are better than Klay:

Lebron
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Harden (5)
Cousins
ADavis
Giannis
Westbrook
Wall (10)
Derozan
Kyrie
Lillard
Butler
George (15)
Embiid
Towns
Porzingis
Aldridge
Oladipo (20)

After that I think Klay is clearly in that 20-25 range with Oladipo, Beal, etc.

He is one of the 5 best shooters in the world and is a great defender. Sign me up for that all day everyday.

This isn't in order right? Im bout to get on you for Butler/Derozan here so careful with the answer lol.

I think right around the 20 range sounds good, I would take Klay over Dipo despite this season tbh. Dipo seems like someone who needs the ball in his hands more to create but if you are really building a team there are so many options that can produce with high volume/ball control but fall off without it and he isn't really good enough to carry a legit team in that role.

That's what makes Klay a little tougher to judge because while there are people who may be able to create a bit more for others with the ball (so on bad teams basically and production/stats jump) they just aren't good enough as a 2/3 option off ball while Klay excels in that role. So once you get past about 15 players now you want a secondary guy moreso imo and what better 3/d All star is there? I think from a guard standpoint I take him over Derozan too in many situations tbh but if starting a team a guy like Lilliard who really creates and can carry to an extent is too good to pass up for a Klay type (so I agree with the pg's you have ahead of him and likely add CP3 at least for now).

nastynice
01-16-2018, 05:51 PM
To be clear he wasn't randomly bringing up KD/Lebron comparisons in this thread in the same way you did. I simply talked about Klay and his situation on GS and how they get ranked all over because of it, YOU brought this out of nowhere. Obviously when you don't bring up some ridiculous point ignoring context no one will have to explain obvious context lol.

no friend, actually you're the one who's ignoring context because I made a specific comparison in regards to how people change their opinion over time, nothing more nothing less. All that added side stuff was from your end. The context of lebron and kd's situation being different in joining a team vs forming a team has no bearing on the particular point I made.

nastynice
01-16-2018, 05:52 PM
^ I saw that second quote and just decided to let it go. He doesn't get it and it's not worth conversing about anymore. If he's that clueless then he's just that clueless.

for someone whom you refer to as not being worth it on an almost daily basis, I seem to be worthy of taking up a lot of your time..

Chronz
01-16-2018, 05:55 PM
^ I saw that second quote and just decided to let it go. He doesn't get it and it's not worth conversing about anymore. If he's that clueless then he's just that clueless.
He truly is obsessed with us ignoring the context of joining a ****ing historic core as opposed to creating your own legacy from the bottom up. Which i don't get, most gs fans i harass in person revel in it, like yeah we won a title, broke records AND added an mvp, were ****ing unprecedented. But he truly thinks we should respect the individual when so much collective talent has been accrued. Lmfao, its like asking me to be in kindergarten again. Sorry bro, ain't gonna happen

Chronz
01-16-2018, 05:58 PM
no friend, actually you're the one who's ignoring context because I made a specific comparison in regards to how people change their opinion over time, nothing more nothing less. All that added side stuff was from your end. The context of lebron and kd's situation being different in joining a team vs forming a team has no bearing on the particular point I made.
And we both corrected you on how different those conversations went given.... gasp, the context. Go ahead, try arguing it today, I'll give you the same response I was proven right about then. Then we compare to today on how I was proven right by three ***** known as kd

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:01 PM
I figured you would chime in because you are the one person I know who brings it up regularly. My experience on this site has been that people always end up coming back to capabilities and what the player produced. Admittedly I find the debates surrounding the geezers a little tough to digest but that's what I have seen and read on here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk
And from where I came from, i was one of many.

Here's what you neglect, what you produce is still influenced by those around you, so we may be talking about the same thing.

But to get you up to speed, the consensus was that Bill was greater, today? Not so much. Ergo, kd should suffer the same fate. We will only remember how he had to run despite being given so much. It'd like being dealt a golden hand only to ***** that you weren't ensured victory by leaps and bounds.

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 06:02 PM
It just all depends on what you're trying to rank them based off of. For example, last year KD got quite unanimous praise for his playoff run from even the most vocal opposers of his move. Because he absolutely killed it. Much like lebron in miami, when you see greatness in front of you it just doesnt matter. Remember how many people were saying **** like his titles in miami won't count, etc etc. But after seeing that type of domination, no one really sticks that weak *** argument anymore.

Golden state is still new to this situation, only 1.5 years so far, so much of how he's viewed is going to depend on how everything plays out


no friend, actually you're the one who's ignoring context because I made a specific comparison in regards to how people change their opinion over time, nothing more nothing less. All that added side stuff was from your end. The context of lebron and kd's situation being different in joining a team vs forming a team has no bearing on the particular point I made.

Yes but it is because it was mostly trolls who couldn't even explain/defend their stance like I pointed out. Rational people were definitely pointing out the obvious context then just like some have tried to explain to you in multiple threads now.

When you say that this could happen for Durant because it happened to Lebron it ignores those obvious differences though, of course that should be considered. I can say Klay isn't a good player because anyone can shoot 3's then point to Kyle Korver as similar. I am ignoring a ton of stuff and obviously someone should correct me but I am making a specific comparison (3 pt shooting) so apparently it's legit. It isn't "ignoring context" to point out when someone is obviously off base.

Then you pretended it was other people bringing that stuff up when it was clearly you who initiated that topic haha. It's right there above if you forgot you brought it up!

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:02 PM
I really like Klay. As good as he is i surprised we havenít seen more explosions from him when it counts


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I'm not. He's not that good

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:04 PM
This isn't in order right? Im bout to get on you for Butler/Derozan here so careful with the answer lol.

I think right around the 20 range sounds good, I would take Klay over Dipo despite this season tbh. Dipo seems like someone who needs the ball in his hands more to create but if you are really building a team there are so many options that can produce with high volume/ball control but fall off without it and he isn't really good enough to carry a legit team in that role.

That's what makes Klay a little tougher to judge because while there are people who may be able to create a bit more for others with the ball (so on bad teams basically and production/stats jump) they just aren't good enough as a 2/3 option off ball while Klay excels in that role. So once you get past about 15 players now you want a secondary guy moreso imo and what better 3/d All star is there? I think from a guard standpoint I take him over Derozan too in many situations tbh but if starting a team a guy like Lilliard who really creates and can carry to an extent is too good to pass up for a Klay type (so I agree with the pg's you have ahead of him and likely add CP3 at least for now).
You echo my thoughts but what if we're wrong about dipo all around today. We may look back and regret it, just as I did with butler when I thought similarly of him

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:08 PM
Any time you find yourself comparing kd to Bron, just stop. Kd is on his own with this one and it will never be topped. Nobody will ever forget unless they never cared about the NBA to begin with. End o story. Check plz

WaDe03
01-16-2018, 06:22 PM
Any time you find yourself comparing kd to Bron, just stop. Kd is on his own with this one and it will never be topped. Nobody will ever forget unless they never cared about the NBA to begin with. End o story. Check plz

This, I'll pay your tab!

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 06:24 PM
You echo my thoughts but what if we're wrong about dipo all around today. We may look back and regret it, just as I did with butler when I thought similarly of him

It is possible and I did actually think he would be better than he was before this year at draft time.

I wouldn't take too hard of a stand on him without watching him more but that's still my personal take. I guess I gotta watch a few more Pacer games, they have played better as a team than I expected too at this rate (at this point you can argue they have been better than last season with PG based on record, differential, SRS). So fair point with him.

nastynice
01-16-2018, 06:29 PM
He truly is obsessed with us ignoring the context of joining a ****ing historic core as opposed to creating your own legacy from the bottom up. Which i don't get, most gs fans i harass in person revel in it, like yeah we won a title, broke records AND added an mvp, were ****ing unprecedented. But he truly thinks we should respect the individual when so much collective talent has been accrued. Lmfao, its like asking me to be in kindergarten again. Sorry bro, ain't gonna happen

lmao, see?!

I have said the same exact thing myself, I call this team team stacked on these boards, yet I guess your false reality is more interesting so why not run with that, right? c'mon guy..

When have I EVER said you need to respect the individual? All I said is KD is crushing this game, and people's opinion will change over time. Not everyone's, some people still hate lebron for his move, I'm sure in 5 years some people will still hate kd. That's great, makes no diff, all that matters is how this team performs

nastynice
01-16-2018, 06:31 PM
Look, you guys can think what you want, that's fine, so long as you understand that you are creating arguments in your head and attacking those arguments. Why you decide to include me in your imaginary arguments you're fighting, I have no clue. But maybe just stick to conversing with casper on those, I'm good :)

nastynice
01-16-2018, 06:33 PM
Any time you find yourself comparing kd to Bron, just stop. Kd is on his own with this one and it will never be topped. Nobody will ever forget unless they never cared about the NBA to begin with. End o story. Check plz

Yes, and nobody is talking about this outside of your circle jerk crew. So maybe keep that convo amongst yourselves??

God forbid I compare the two and say hey, kd and lebron are both polarizing players. What's your response? Derrrp, but what kd did is different, derrrrp, lebron didn't join, he formed, derrrrp, maybe no on gives a flying **** to add that into every single thing kd or lebron related. If you guys do, then great, more power to you. Hamsters love running on those treadmills, so I don't see why you wouldn't...

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:34 PM
lmao, see?!

I have said the same exact thing myself, I call this team team stacked on these boards, yet I guess your false reality is more interesting so why not run with that, right? c'mon guy..

When have I EVER said you need to respect the individual? All I said is KD is crushing this game, and people's opinion will change over time. Not everyone's, some people still hate lebron for his move, I'm sure in 5 years some people will still hate kd. That's great, makes no diff, all that matters is how this team performs
Minor change, not the b's you been spewing imo. No Individual can ever be removed from the team equation he ran to. It sets an undeniable limit on what he can achieve as an individual because he ran from the challenge to a degree that we will never see again.

KD ain't crushing ****, he's a CLEAR 2 on a team that's underachieving, but because of its talent should win. Why would I be impressed when I've seen true greats dominate? Lol, kd is only impressive if you ignore context to the fullest

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:35 PM
Look, you guys can think what you want, that's fine, so long as you understand that you are creating arguments in your head and attacking those arguments. Why you decide to include me in your imaginary arguments you're fighting, I have no clue. But maybe just stick to conversing with casper on those, I'm good :)
Nah, you deserve every bit of criticism given your awful comparisons

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:40 PM
Yes, and nobody is talking about this outside of your circle jerk crew. So maybe keep that convo amongst yourselves??

God forbid I compare the two and say hey, kd and lebron are both polarizing players. What's your response? Derrrp, but what kd did is different, derrrrp, lebron didn't join, he formed, derrrrp, maybe no on gives a flying **** to add that into every single thing kd or lebron related. If you guys do, then great, more power to you. Hamsters love running on those treadmills, so I don't see why you wouldn't...
Nah, you keep Bron in your arguments, none of us would bring him up if you simply acknowledged contextual differences that make such a comparison invalid. Sorry you want us to forget but true greatness isn't achieved his way.

Hamster recognize hamster, only I'm always responding whereas you stay with flawed arguments and comparisons. They don't work when kd is on a galaxy all his own.

Once you get that, we'll all be gravy. KD can't escape this one

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 06:46 PM
Look, you guys can think what you want, that's fine, so long as you understand that you are creating arguments in your head and attacking those arguments. Why you decide to include me in your imaginary arguments you're fighting, I have no clue. But maybe just stick to conversing with casper on those, I'm good :)

You create the arguments, we respond with obvious context, you run away then pretend like we bring it up out of nowhere pages later.

That's the order of progression here FYI.

nastynice
01-16-2018, 06:49 PM
Nah, you keep Bron in your arguments, none of us would bring him up if you simply acknowledged contextual differences that make such a comparison invalid. Sorry you want us to forget but true greatness isn't achieved his way.

Hamster recognize hamster, only I'm always responding whereas you stay with flawed arguments and comparisons. They don't work when kd is on a galaxy all his own.

Once you get that, we'll all be gravy. KD can't escape this one

omgzzz bro, but joining is diff than forming! don't you get it!?!?

question: who's the best defender this year?
answer: but lebron's context is diff than kd's
crowd: awesome!

nastynice
01-16-2018, 06:52 PM
You create the arguments, we respond with obvious context, you run away then pretend like we bring it up out of nowhere pages later.

That's the order of progression here FYI.

You trip me out cuz you're a normal person, these other fools are salty haters so I understand why their brain implodes anytime someone brings up kd. But you don't have that excuse. I made a comparison that people make "final opinions" about things, and then change them over time. That is literally the only thing I said when comparing the two in this thread. What's there to argue? What I said isn't any sort of opinion, its just a fact. There's nothing to even argue, unless you bring up your own off the wall **** and add it in.

Again, people do or don't change their opinions over time? If they do, then there's just nothing to argue here. Bringing up kd and lebron and what their context is and what they eat for breakfast and what their favorite color is, this **** makes no diff

Chronz
01-16-2018, 06:53 PM
Agree to disagree. Kd the biggest ***** ever

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 06:57 PM
You create the arguments, we respond with obvious context, you run away then pretend like we bring it up out of nowhere pages later.

That's the order of progression here FYI.

You trip me out cuz you're a normal person, these other fools are salty haters so I understand why their brain implodes anytime someone brings up kd. But you don't have that excuse. I made a comparison that people make "final opinions" about things, and then change them over time. That is literally the only thing I said when comparing the two in this thread. What's there to argue? What I said isn't any sort of opinion, its just a fact. There's nothing to even argue, unless you bring up your own off the wall **** and add it in.

Again, people do or don't change their opinions over time? If they do, then there's just nothing to argue here. Bringing up kd and lebron and what their context is and what they eat for breakfast and what their favorite color is, this **** makes no diff

You ignored my post pointing out the obvious lack of logic above, why?

People change their mind therefore it's ok to compare mj to iggy after 15. No no no I'm just saying people change their mind on Jordan after he won so why not iggy in top 10 soon like mj when he won? Cmon man you can't be this blind to the clear cut lack of context in using a ridiculous comparison as an example "people change their mind" lol.

nastynice
01-16-2018, 07:27 PM
You ignored my post pointing out the obvious lack of logic above, why?

People change their mind therefore it's ok to compare mj to iggy after 15. No no no I'm just saying people change their mind on Jordan after he won so why not iggy in top 10 soon like mj when he won? Cmon man you can't be this blind to the clear cut lack of context in using a ridiculous comparison as an example "people change their mind" lol.

listen man, its a klay thread, this tangent has gone on long enough

If that's how you feel, then great. I brought up two situations, both were somewhat unprecedented at the time they happened, both got a lot of negative reaction, both initially made people say that this moves limits this players overall status as an all timer. One of these situations played out, and the initial things people said didn't hold true. I'm telling you, we just have to see what happens, because maybe the other one will too. Maybe it won't. I don't know. But its just too premature to say this or that, because we don't know how things will play out, and we just recently went through this where people thought one thing but then how things played out changed things.

Regardless of your personal opinion, as far as sports media and talking heads, most of them gave kd a lot of props last playoffs, even the ones most critical of him. That in of itself doesn't mean kd will achieve this status or that status, but it shows that there are indeed people changing their opinion of him.

Just because YOU are not one of those people doesn't mean that everyone else's opinion aligns with yours.

That's what it is, without any fluff you're trying to add. Now if the situations in your mind are so different that you feel yes, barring any major catostrophic change, we can write the ceiling for kd already because of the move he made, then great, go for it, what the hell am I gonna say? If that's your opinion that's your opinion, just understand that not everyone else thinks that

At this point we're becoming as pathetic as the rockets and clippers and their little skirmish, so cool, we both feel how we both feel. Good for us! :hi5:

KnicksorBust
01-16-2018, 08:15 PM
Players that are better than Klay:

Lebron
Durant
Curry
Kawhi
Harden (5)
Cousins
ADavis
Giannis
Westbrook
Wall (10)
Derozan
Kyrie
Lillard
Butler
George (15)
Embiid
Towns
Porzingis
Aldridge
Oladipo (20)

After that I think Klay is clearly in that 20-25 range with Oladipo, Beal, etc.

He is one of the 5 best shooters in the world and is a great defender. Sign me up for that all day everyday.

This isn't in order right? Im bout to get on you for Butler/Derozan here so careful with the answer lol.

I think right around the 20 range sounds good, I would take Klay over Dipo despite this season tbh. Dipo seems like someone who needs the ball in his hands more to create but if you are really building a team there are so many options that can produce with high volume/ball control but fall off without it and he isn't really good enough to carry a legit team in that role.

That's what makes Klay a little tougher to judge because while there are people who may be able to create a bit more for others with the ball (so on bad teams basically and production/stats jump) they just aren't good enough as a 2/3 option off ball while Klay excels in that role. So once you get past about 15 players now you want a secondary guy moreso imo and what better 3/d All star is there? I think from a guard standpoint I take him over Derozan too in many situations tbh but if starting a team a guy like Lilliard who really creates and can carry to an extent is too good to pass up for a Klay type (so I agree with the pg's you have ahead of him and likely add CP3 at least for now).

I started trying to do in order and forgot about Giannis and then just decided to leave it the way it was as long as I felt comfortable I would take them over Klay. Butler > Derozan. You can relax. :)

Jamiecballer
01-16-2018, 08:20 PM
And from where I came from, i was one of many.

Here's what you neglect, what you produce is still influenced by those around you, so we may be talking about the same thing.

But to get you up to speed, the consensus was that Bill was greater, today? Not so much. Ergo, kd should suffer the same fate. We will only remember how he had to run despite being given so much. It'd like being dealt a golden hand only to ***** that you weren't ensured victory by leaps and bounds.Well this is where our opinions diverge - you are absolutely correct that Russell's greatness has taken a major hit over how it used to be view. You think it's got something to do with his teammates, why? I do not. So if you are starting from that place of course you might expect that will happen to Durant. I do not. What happened to Bill, imo, is that a whole bunch of people who grew up with Bill, bought into all the legendary attributes attributed to him passed the game on to the next generation where there was no attachment. And those people looked for answers for why if he was so great why did his offensive numbers look so damn run of the mill. A generation ago the talk was all about what he could do. Now it centers around what he was not capable of doing. Now again, conversations over all time rankings do not hold any interest for me - I don't pay attention when the media debates these things, but I do wade through the convos on here and that's what I see.

In many ways it reminds me of the conversations surrounding Iverson. In the late 90's early 2000's the conversation was all about what was great about him - now he's being eaten alive for his obvious shortcomings.

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Chronz
01-16-2018, 08:42 PM
Well this is where our opinions diverge - you are absolutely correct that Russell's greatness has taken a major hit over how it used to be view. You think it's got something to do with his teammates, why? I do not. So if you are starting from that place of course you might expect that will happen to Durant. I do not. What happened to Bill, imo, is that a whole bunch of people who grew up with Bill, bought into all the legendary attributes attributed to him passed the game on to the next generation where there was no attachment. And those people looked for answers for why if he was so great why did his offensive numbers look so damn run of the mill. A generation ago the talk was all about what he could do. Now it centers around what he was not capable of doing. Now again, conversations over all time rankings do not hold any interest for me - I don't pay attention when the media debates these things, but I do wade through the convos on here and that's what I see.

In many ways it reminds me of the conversations surrounding Iverson. In the late 90's early 2000's the conversation was all about what was great about him - now he's being eaten alive for his obvious shortcomings.

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Your rhetoric ignores one key flaw, its literally been the talking point from day 1, that you are either too young or too ignorant to be privy to it is not my concern. I've gone through the debate plenty, you're wrong here by all accounts. Feel free to educate me tho.

Chronz
01-16-2018, 08:46 PM
Lol my bad. I just realized the logical fallacy of asking to be enlightened by someone who never cared about the proposition requested. Lmfao my bad, I should make it clear next time. I ONLY care if you care enough to actually debate the greatest to play this game. If it's not up your ally then think Iverson was greater than Wilt for all I care. Lol by all means guys, just don't debate ****

Jamiecballer
01-16-2018, 08:58 PM
I think you just mistakenly believe that just because they are conversations you have means that everyone is having them. And given how obsessed you are on the topic of Durants teammates it may totally feel that way but it's not the case.

If you care to prove me wrong you are more than welcome to but save the ignorant assumptions and personal attacks for a situation/individual that warrants it. I told you what I've read on PSD doesnt line up with what you are saying, and your insults don't change that fact.

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mngopher35
01-16-2018, 10:56 PM
listen man, its a klay thread, this tangent has gone on long enough

If that's how you feel, then great. I brought up two situations, both were somewhat unprecedented at the time they happened, both got a lot of negative reaction, both initially made people say that this moves limits this players overall status as an all timer. One of these situations played out, and the initial things people said didn't hold true. I'm telling you, we just have to see what happens, because maybe the other one will too. Maybe it won't. I don't know. But its just too premature to say this or that, because we don't know how things will play out, and we just recently went through this where people thought one thing but then how things played out changed things.

Regardless of your personal opinion, as far as sports media and talking heads, most of them gave kd a lot of props last playoffs, even the ones most critical of him. That in of itself doesn't mean kd will achieve this status or that status, but it shows that there are indeed people changing their opinion of him.

Just because YOU are not one of those people doesn't mean that everyone else's opinion aligns with yours.

That's what it is, without any fluff you're trying to add. Now if the situations in your mind are so different that you feel yes, barring any major catostrophic change, we can write the ceiling for kd already because of the move he made, then great, go for it, what the hell am I gonna say? If that's your opinion that's your opinion, just understand that not everyone else thinks that

At this point we're becoming as pathetic as the rockets and clippers and their little skirmish, so cool, we both feel how we both feel. Good for us! :hi5:

You came into the thread and quoted me. You were the one to bring up KD's title and compare things with Lebron and Miami in that post not me. Then you were the one to joke to be careful about people bringing it up again out of nowhere.

I simply have been replying to your points by adding obvious logic/context that is being used to make the comparison (just like I would do with MJ and Iggy if someone were being ridiculous with them like my example). I even said in my first response to you that I don't think it is impossible just that those situations are very different and I disagreed with your take on KD getting unanimous praise even from most vocal supporters etc. from the first post as well.

Like my entire point from the start has simply been that this situation is much different than what we have seen before and that in order to get the similar type of praise etc. Lebron got it would have to change in some way to be closer. I just disagreed that it's similar to Miami because of the obvious differences and those actually played into why he got less hype/credit than Lebron for the first title. Someone asked you to give examples of the incredible praise so many critics were singing but I sure haven't seen it from you.

I am simply stating why it isn't nearly as likely given the situation he is in and what it would take for it to actually be comparable (and make it likely people change their minds in a similar fashion). Again from my first response I said it's not impossible haha. Just because a different player in a much different situation had some similarities it doesn't mean they are comparable in the same way my examples obviously wouldn't have been either because they aren't the same player/situation in many ways too. That context matters and it's why people pointed it out when you played ignorant for so long.

mngopher35
01-16-2018, 11:01 PM
I started trying to do in order and forgot about Giannis and then just decided to leave it the way it was as long as I felt comfortable I would take them over Klay. Butler > Derozan. You can relax. :)

Hahaha good. It was like partially in an order I could see someone using but then there were outliers and it fell off as the list went on etc.

Chronz
01-17-2018, 01:33 PM
I think you just mistakenly believe that just because they are conversations you have means that everyone is having them. And given how obsessed you are on the topic of Durants teammates it may totally feel that way but it's not the case.

If you care to prove me wrong you are more than welcome to but save the ignorant assumptions and personal attacks for a situation/individual that warrants it. I told you what I've read on PSD doesnt line up with what you are saying, and your insults don't change that fact.

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How do I mistake direct quotes from ex players? Show me any proof before assuming anything other than the literal talking point from day 1. You said the conversation never revolves around it, I don't care if people argue other aspects but you definitely can't disregard an actual conversation that has been around from the beginning.

What feels what way, you confused me there. I don't feel anything, I just tackle awful arguments.

You've been proven wrong, I paid far more attention to these kind of debates it seems if you honestly can't recall the many times its come up.

Don't forget you were the one responding to a poster who also devalued Russell's rings given the comparison to KD and the plethora of talent around them. It's an actual conversation bro, no amount of ignorance or lying will change that

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-17-2018, 06:55 PM
Most overrated? I think he's the most underrated. Top ten player in the league.

mightybosstone
01-17-2018, 06:59 PM
Most overrated? I think he's the most underrated. Top ten player in the league.

There we go! I knew there was somebody on PSD who would help me prove my point. Thank you for your crazy opinion, sir! It is much appreciated!

Jamiecballer
01-17-2018, 08:15 PM
...I paid far more attention to these kind of debates it seems if you honestly can't recall the many times its come up.

There it is! It took a while Chronz but you finally got there.

This is exactly what I said to you. I clarified this for you 3 or 4 times.

How can you have the definitive answer when we are talking about our perception? I have no reason to lie to you when I tell you that most of the conversations I have read lately on psd regarding Russell seem to involve more discussion and dissection of his offensive abilities than whether he has great teammates. None. But you go ahead and tell me what I've read because I know you have a need to be right.

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JasonJohnHorn
01-17-2018, 09:18 PM
There we go! I knew there was somebody on PSD who would help me prove my point. Thank you for your crazy opinion, sir! It is much appreciated!

One scrub on PSD putting player in top-10 + >20% not putting him in the top 15 + only 2 All-NBA appearance - any AllNBA 1st or 2nd team appearance - any All-defensive appearances = most overrated player in the league.

Chronz
01-17-2018, 10:12 PM
There it is! It took a while Chronz but you finally got there.

This is exactly what I said to you. I clarified this for you 3 or 4 times.

How can you have the definitive answer when we are talking about our perception? I have no reason to lie to you when I tell you that most of the conversations I have read lately on psd regarding Russell seem to involve more discussion and dissection of his offensive abilities than whether he has great teammates. None. But you go ahead and tell me what I've read because I know you have a need to be right.

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Except this was your comment.


It never comes down to how good his teammates were - same for Russell.....

It has literally been said about guys like russ from day 1 . It takes an awful lot of ignorance (that's not an insult, its my honest opinion that you're making grandiose claims without abit of research or much thought) to not see why it would be. Whether it's baseless or not is irrelevant but you cannot ignore the argument exists.

Take it from me, its not a need to be right, its a need to enlighten and/or debate. So think this out logically, a large portion of a players legacy hinges on how much they win. Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever, the OBVIOUS counter to that has and will always be to point to an allegedly, markedly superior supporting cast. You honestly think people hold Russell in high regard because of anything more than his winning ways? I mean why wouldn't supporting casts be mentioned when they're so influential to a players career.

Jamiecballer
01-17-2018, 10:48 PM
Except this was your comment.


It never comes down to how good his teammates were - same for Russell.....

It has literally been said about guys like russ from day 1 . It takes an awful lot of ignorance (that's not an insult, its my honest opinion that you're making grandiose claims without abit of research or much thought) to not see why it would be. Whether it's baseless or not is irrelevant but you cannot ignore the argument exists.

Take it from me, its not a need to be right, its a need to enlighten and/or debate. So think this out logically, a large portion of a players legacy hinges on how much they win. Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever, the OBVIOUS counter to that has and will always be to point to an allegedly, markedly superior supporting cast. You honestly think people hold Russell in high regard because of anything more than his winning ways? I mean why wouldn't supporting casts be mentioned when they're so influential to a players career.There are a few things I don't agree with here.

I don't believe Russell is held so highly purely for the winning - so throw that out. I think he has dropped justifiably in public opinion because people have looked closer beyond the myth into his hardly overwhelming offensive numbers and asked the hard questions. Such is the times.

That doesn t mean I don't think there haven't been people who argued that his place was propped up on the basis of his superior teammates - i never said any such thing, I just believe, and again only from my experience, that people are getting better at separating man made constructs like 'winner' and 'champion' to evaluate more clearly players based simply on what they did or can do. You may not believe that, but I do. You can see how it's killing Iverson can't you? Iverson is sliding down people's lists in the light of cold facts.

I feel we are making progress beyond looking at rings as a useful judge of anything, although clearly based on your comment you do not. They are highly circumstantial and with the earning of them - if you want to call it that, fans are saddled with memories of outsized importance compared to the rest.





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ewing
01-17-2018, 11:04 PM
^^^ loves progress


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mightybosstone
01-17-2018, 11:38 PM
One scrub on PSD putting player in top-10 + >20% not putting him in the top 15 + only 2 All-NBA appearance - any AllNBA 1st or 2nd team appearance - any All-defensive appearances = most overrated player in the league.

Again, I guess I'll have to repeat myself, but it's blatantly ignorant to try and disprove my entire argument based off of an unscientific poll on PSD that had literally nothing to do with my original post. But you ignored that just like you've ignored every other point I've made in the last week yet responded to anyway for some reason.

If you're not going to read what I write and respond to the points I make, then just don't respond to me at all. I don't come to PSD to debate with brick walls. I come to debate sports, which you clearly have no desire to do.

JasonJohnHorn
01-18-2018, 10:09 AM
Again, I guess I'll have to repeat myself, but it's blatantly ignorant to try and disprove my entire argument based off of an unscientific poll on PSD that had literally nothing to do with my original post. But you ignored that just like you've ignored every other point I've made in the last week yet responded to anyway for some reason.

If you're not going to read what I write and respond to the points I make, then just don't respond to me at all. I don't come to PSD to debate with brick walls. I come to debate sports, which you clearly have no desire to do.

I've responded to your comments. You ask a hyperbolic question and YOU set up a poll. Not simply is he 'overrated' (which is clearly debatable given how harsh so many people are with respect to him), but is he the MOST overrted. Clearly he is not.

Who decides how well somebody is rated? General fandom? He's never been voted into the starting line-up of an All-Star game, so fans obviously don't rate him very high. You yourself said the voters of the All-NBA team and All-Defensive team got the vote right with respect to him. So wherever you might rank him personally, and wherever some people rank him, he's clearly not ranked very high, hence, quite quanfiably (which isn't always possible with such subjective matters), Klay is NOT the most overrated player in the NBA.

Even this year, which is likely his best All-Star voting season, there are 8 players WELL ahead of him, and five other guys with 100,000 votes, many from small markets, so even with the bias of being in a big market and on a high profile team that is popular not only nation wide and internationally, and even though Klay has done tours in China to amp up his brand, he's still only finishing somewhere between 9-15 in voting.

But the actual sports casters and coaches haven't put him in the top ten ever.

And don't act like I'm miss representing you. ONE person put him in the top ten and YOU thanked that one person's opinion for helping to 'prove' your argument (ignoring the fact that you dismissed it as crazy). That's on you. That is a DIRECT quote from you, in context.

Need a reminder?


There we go! I knew there was somebody on PSD who would help me prove my point. Thank you for your crazy opinion, sir! It is much appreciated!

Look back on your own posts and read them before trying to pull a card like that. It doesn't fly.

Your language is hyperbolic and reactionary.

I mean... Lonzo Ball's All-Star voting currently has him ranked ahead of Booker, Bulter, Lillard, Lowry, IT, Horford, and a host of other well-established players (in addition to young players who are already out-performing him). Given that a guy whose team is well under .500 and who has no consistent shot is ranked ahead of actuall All-Stars in the voting, there is MORE of a case that Ball is the most overrated player (by fans) than Klay is, and given that you've already admitted that the All-NBA/All-Defensive team voters got it right with Klay, I'm not sure who other than the general fans would be 'overrating' Klay.


You want to keep up with the reactionary, hyperbolic, and polarizing rhetoric, go ahead. But don't try and take the high road and act like I'm misconstruing your words. And you've only gone back on the poll because it isn't supporting your argument. You put it up because you obviously thought it would prove your point. Now that it doesn't, you call it unscientific, but if it is unscientific, then why post a poll?

WaDe03
01-18-2018, 10:26 AM
Anyone who voted him in the top 20 is crazy.

Jamiecballer
01-18-2018, 12:28 PM
^^^ loves progress


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ha you got me.

KnicksorBust
01-18-2018, 12:43 PM
Most overrated? I think he's the most underrated. Top ten player in the league.

There's always 1.


One scrub on PSD putting player in top-10 + >20% not putting him in the top 15 + only 2 All-NBA appearance - any AllNBA 1st or 2nd team appearance - any All-defensive appearances = most overrated player in the league.

:laugh: MBT's post to the guy was a joke. Or at least I think it was. I've seen people talk about how Klay might be the best SG in the league. There are some people that think he's top 15. A lot of players in the NBA are polarizing. I think MBT feels, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of people give Klay credit for skills that we don't really know if he has them or not. He might just be the perfect role player in the perfect situation on the perfect team. Where he can just get set up with screens while all the attention is on Curry/Durant and he can hit open layups/jumpshots all game. How would he do if he switched places with say Tim Hardaway Jr on the Knicks? I think MBT has his doubts while other people think he would be just as good.

mightybosstone
01-18-2018, 02:19 PM
I've responded to your comments. You ask a hyperbolic question and YOU set up a poll. Not simply is he 'overrated' (which is clearly debatable given how harsh so many people are with respect to him), but is he the MOST overrted. Clearly he is not.

Who decides how well somebody is rated? General fandom? He's never been voted into the starting line-up of an All-Star game, so fans obviously don't rate him very high. You yourself said the voters of the All-NBA team and All-Defensive team got the vote right with respect to him. So wherever you might rank him personally, and wherever some people rank him, he's clearly not ranked very high, hence, quite quanfiably (which isn't always possible with such subjective matters), Klay is NOT the most overrated player in the NBA.

Even this year, which is likely his best All-Star voting season, there are 8 players WELL ahead of him, and five other guys with 100,000 votes, many from small markets, so even with the bias of being in a big market and on a high profile team that is popular not only nation wide and internationally, and even though Klay has done tours in China to amp up his brand, he's still only finishing somewhere between 9-15 in voting.

But the actual sports casters and coaches haven't put him in the top ten ever.

And don't act like I'm miss representing you. ONE person put him in the top ten and YOU thanked that one person's opinion for helping to 'prove' your argument (ignoring the fact that you dismissed it as crazy). That's on you. That is a DIRECT quote from you, in context.

Need a reminder?



Look back on your own posts and read them before trying to pull a card like that. It doesn't fly.

Your language is hyperbolic and reactionary.

I mean... Lonzo Ball's All-Star voting currently has him ranked ahead of Booker, Bulter, Lillard, Lowry, IT, Horford, and a host of other well-established players (in addition to young players who are already out-performing him). Given that a guy whose team is well under .500 and who has no consistent shot is ranked ahead of actuall All-Stars in the voting, there is MORE of a case that Ball is the most overrated player (by fans) than Klay is, and given that you've already admitted that the All-NBA/All-Defensive team voters got it right with Klay, I'm not sure who other than the general fans would be 'overrating' Klay.


You want to keep up with the reactionary, hyperbolic, and polarizing rhetoric, go ahead. But don't try and take the high road and act like I'm misconstruing your words. And you've only gone back on the poll because it isn't supporting your argument. You put it up because you obviously thought it would prove your point. Now that it doesn't, you call it unscientific, but if it is unscientific, then why post a poll?

Do me a favor. Go back and read the original post that started this thread, and find me some language you feel is "hyperbolic." In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The only language in the post that could be viewed as "hyperbolic" is the headline itself. But if you're basing my entire argument on the headline, you're completely missing the point of the post to begin with. Is he actually the most overrated player in the league? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care. The point isn't that I necessarily view him as the definitive "most overrated player." The point is that I often see analysts and posters treat the guy like a star player, and he's not based on the skills he possesses and the production he provides.

Whether it's through listings or threads of "pick your best starting five" discussions or just general conversations about great players in the league, I regularly see his name brought up in conversations he doesn't belong in. Forget the poll, because the poll is irrelevant. I don't care about it, and I was clearly joking when I replied to the poster who claimed Thompson was a top 10 player.

But this is why you've been getting on my nerves lately. Rather than read my initial post and respond to those points about his actual impact, his actual production and his actual game, you read the headline and then wrote a novel of points that clearly didn't take into account my original post to begin with. I spent a good chunk of my morning on those first two well-researched posts that required a lot of data digging, and you completely ignored them and decided to go off on a tangent attacking the headline and poll.

Quit arguing the semantics, and let's talk basketball. You want to discuss his actual production and impact on the floor? I'm happy to have that conversation with you. But this isn't a conversation I'm going to waste any more of my time on.

mightybosstone
01-18-2018, 02:26 PM
There's always 1.

:laugh: MBT's post to the guy was a joke. Or at least I think it was. I've seen people talk about how Klay might be the best SG in the league. There are some people that think he's top 15. A lot of players in the NBA are polarizing. I think MBT feels, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that a lot of people give Klay credit for skills that we don't really know if he has them or not. He might just be the perfect role player in the perfect situation on the perfect team. Where he can just get set up with screens while all the attention is on Curry/Durant and he can hit open layups/jumpshots all game. How would he do if he switched places with say Tim Hardaway Jr on the Knicks? I think MBT has his doubts while other people think he would be just as good.

:clap: Thank you! This is the whole point. I couldn't care less where posters on a PSD poll rank the guy. But he's talked about in conversations he doesn't belong in. If I had a nickel for every time I read or heard someone say "I'd rather have Thompson than Harden..." It's just ridiculous how much credit the guy gets for essentially having one elite skill (3-point shooting) and one above average skill (man-to-man perimeter defense) when there are dozens of guys in the league with more complete games who have a much greater impact on their teams when they're on the floor.

valade16
01-18-2018, 02:35 PM
His situation reminds me of Andrew Toney. He was dropping 20 PPG behind Moses and Dr. J on a team that also featured Mo Cheeks and Bobby Jones.

MygirlhatesCod
01-18-2018, 02:46 PM
:clap: Thank you! This is the whole point. I couldn't care less where posters on a PSD poll rank the guy. But he's talked about in conversations he doesn't belong in. If I had a nickel for every time I read or heard someone say "I'd rather have Thompson than Harden..." It's just ridiculous how much credit the guy gets for essentially having one elite skill (3-point shooting) and one above average skill (man-to-man perimeter defense) when there are dozens of guys in the league with more complete games who have a much greater impact on their teams when they're on the floor.

there it is! that's the only reason you made this thread. stop being so consumed with Houston players being compared less favorably to others. if Houston wins a championship in the next 4 years then you will have a justifiable argument. till then what does it matter if someone would rather have klay or butler over harden? it will stay that way because most fans would rather have someone that has won something other than getting the most free throw attempts in a game.
I think Harden is the better player. but for a players fit on a team (its a team game) klay is the more fluid puzzle piece.

mightybosstone
01-18-2018, 03:11 PM
there it is! that's the only reason you made this thread. stop being so consumed with Houston players being compared less favorably to others. if Houston wins a championship in the next 4 years then you will have a justifiable argument. till then what does it matter if someone would rather have klay or butler over harden? it will stay that way because most fans would rather have someone that has won something other than getting the most free throw attempts in a game.
I think Harden is the better player. but for a players fit on a team (its a team game) klay is the more fluid puzzle piece.

Except that's not the reason I made this thread at all. The whole idea for this thread came out of a conversation I had with lol in a thread about Jimmy Butler, with had literally nothing to do with Harden. He and I were chatting about the differences between Butler and Thompson, and it got me thinking of all the ways Butler is a superior player. I went to bed that night thinking about making a post about why I think Thompson gets overrated by fans and analysts, and I woke up the next morning wanting to make a post about it.

MygirlhatesCod
01-18-2018, 03:38 PM
Except that's not the reason I made this thread at all. The whole idea for this thread came out of a conversation I had with lol in a thread about Jimmy Butler, with had literally nothing to do with Harden. He and I were chatting about the differences between Butler and Thompson, and it got me thinking of all the ways Butler is a superior player. I went to bed that night thinking about making a post about why I think Thompson gets overrated by fans and analysts, and I woke up the next morning wanting to make a post about it.

If that's the case then my mistake.

Either way my last sentence sums up Klay for me. As sg's go he is by far better than any other sg for what his team needs to win. doesn't mean that he is a better athlete or better skilled.
I will say that the most overrated player today in my opinion has to be Westbrook.

TrueFan420
01-18-2018, 03:44 PM
Anyone who voted him in the top 20 is crazy.

Not really... he's somewhere in that 18 to 25 range.

There will always be question marks about where he would be if on his own but people shouldn't be quick to disregard what he's does within the limits of his role.

Look no further than the perception of Love Pre and Post joining the Cavs. Went from arguably best PF definitely top 3 to stat suffer can't win on a real team as a 3rd option.

mightybosstone
01-18-2018, 03:47 PM
If that's the case then my mistake.

Either way my last sentence sums up Klay for me. As sg's go he is by far better than any other sg for what his team needs to win. doesn't mean that he is a better athlete or better skilled.
I will say that the most overrated player today in my opinion has to be Westbrook.

Both are fair points. Thompson fills a specific role in Golden State as well as any player in the league could possibly fill it, and I have no qualms with saying that. And a very strong case could be made for Westbrook as being more overrated based on his individual production versus the success of the teams he plays for.

mightybosstone
01-18-2018, 03:50 PM
Not really... he's somewhere in that 18 to 25 range.

There will always be question marks about where he would be if on his own but people shouldn't be quick to disregard what he's does within the limits of his role.

Look no further than the perception of Love Pre and Post joining the Cavs. Went from arguably best PF definitely top 3 to stat suffer can't win on a real team as a 3rd option.

I don't think top 20 is crazy. Looking at lists of rankings around the league before the season, I believe both ESPN and SI had him around 19-20. And the Ringer did its own list separate of Simmons that had him in that same range. All three seemed fair, especially given where the rest of the league was at the time. Personally, I think he's a few spots behind that, particularly with the development and huge leaps in development we've seen from a lot of young guys this year. But I don't think it's ridiculous to think of him at least being in the top 20 conversation.

JasonJohnHorn
01-18-2018, 11:10 PM
I couldn't care less where posters on a PSD poll rank the guy.

Says this after asking people on PSD what they think and creating a poll for them.

Couldn't care less where they rank the guy? Got it.

JasonJohnHorn
01-18-2018, 11:27 PM
Do me a favor. Go back and read the original post that started this thread, and find me some language you feel is "hyperbolic." In the words of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The only language in the post that could be viewed as "hyperbolic" is the headline itself.


Writes hyperbolic headlines; gets upset when people say he's using hyperbolic language.

I think you'd have to re-write the Inigo Montoya quote if you want to ti apply: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means, unless you are referring to the title of the post I wrote, in which case, yeah... that is exactly what it means.."




But if you're basing my entire argument on the headline, you're completely missing the point of the post to begin with.

Strawman again. Never said that was your entire argument. I said you were framing the conversation in a polarizing way with hyperbolic language. If you think the poll question and headline doesn't frame the conversation, then you are being willfully blind.

You can't open a conversation with a statement like that and expect a level converation. "Is Klay Thompson underrated or overrated?" Or "Is Klay overrated?"

"The most" means WAY overrated. I will freely admit that I may overrate him. I think there is a case for a top-15 ranking. But I will also concede that he likely plays better in the system he's in.



Is he actually the most overrated player in the league? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care.

You don't care, but you started a thread about it. That seems consistent.


The point isn't that I necessarily view him as the definitive "most overrated player." The point is that I often see analysts and posters treat the guy like a star player, and he's not based on the skills he possesses and the production he provides.

That's subjective. I'd say a guy who is able to average 20+ a game while playing top-tier defense, posting crazy efficiency, and shooting at an historically high level, helping a team witn over 70 wins in a season, winning two titles, making a few ASGs and a couple All-NBA teams constitutes a star. If you don't... well, you have a higher standard for 'star' than me and that's fine, but that's strictly subjetive.


Whether it's through listings or threads of "pick your best starting five" discussions or just general conversations about great players in the league, I regularly see his name brought up in conversations he doesn't belong in.

This seems vague (people put him in conversations he doesn't belong??? What does that even mean), and subjective (how does he not belong in a conversation?)


Forget the poll, because the poll is irrelevant. I don't care about it, and I was clearly joking when I replied to the poster who claimed Thompson was a top 10 player.

Um... forget the poll that you created as part of this conversation and that you don't care about but that you created? Ok. Got it.


But this is why you've been getting on my nerves lately. Rather than read my initial post and respond to those points about his actual impact, his actual production and his actual game, you read the headline and then wrote a novel of points that clearly didn't take into account my original post to begin with.

First of all, if you want to create a click-bait title, and then get upset when people respond to it, then stop writing click bait titles. You're playing yourself.

That said, I don't misconstrue what you wrote or misrepresent it. If I speak to the question you post withou reading every word you write, that's my perogative.

That said, as somebody who actually MISREPRESENTS what other people write, which you DO REGULARILY, you have no basis to complain about this even if I was doing it, which I'm not.




I spent a good chunk of my morning on those first two well-researched posts that required a lot of data digging, and you completely ignored them and decided to go off on a tangent attacking the headline and poll.

You created the headline. If you have a problem with people responding to it, quit writing click-biat titles. That's not complicated. I'm not oblidged to read and respond to eveyr word your write becaue you wrote a click-biat title that you think you've provided context to in a novella.

Get with it man. You've already admited that your title was hypebolic: IT'S THE TITLE MAN!!!! It frames the conversation.




Quit arguing the semantics, and let's talk basketball. You want to discuss his actual production and impact on the floor? I'm happy to have that conversation with you. But this isn't a conversation I'm going to waste any more of my time on.

You quit using strawman argument and complaining when people respond to the hyperbolic, click-biat questions you post in the title, and I'll be happy to do that.

Also... learn what semantics means, because... "I do not think it means what you think it means."

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 12:41 AM
JHH, you do you, man. But I'm not going to feed your semantics-based crap anymore. You want to talk basketball? I'm here. But until then, suffice it to say I won't be responding to your long-winded, generic, not-remotely-researched takes, and I certainly won't be responding to your posts in this thread, which have gone completely off the rails and have literally nothing to do with basketball or Klay Thompson anymore.

If you don't want to believe me when I say things, that's totally your prerogative, and there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. But I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this. I have better things to do with my time than not argue sports on an internet sports forum.

Scoots
01-19-2018, 10:02 AM
JHH, you do you, man. But I'm not going to feed your semantics-based crap anymore. You want to talk basketball? I'm here. But until then, suffice it to say I won't be responding to your long-winded, generic, not-remotely-researched takes, and I certainly won't be responding to your posts in this thread, which have gone completely off the rails and have literally nothing to do with basketball or Klay Thompson anymore.

If you don't want to believe me when I say things, that's totally your prerogative, and there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. But I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this. I have better things to do with my time than not argue sports on an internet sports forum.

To be fair, in the middle of that long post he did say:


I'd say a guy who is able to average 20+ a game while playing top-tier defense, posting crazy efficiency, and shooting at an historically high level, helping a team witn over 70 wins in a season, winning two titles, making a few ASGs and a couple All-NBA teams constitutes a star.

Which is actually on point.

I think we should remember than Klay Thompson's singular on court performance single handedly lead directly to KD joining the Warriors. https://youtu.be/09AqpNPiZ8g

JasonJohnHorn
01-19-2018, 10:22 AM
JHH, you do you, man. But I'm not going to feed your semantics-based crap anymore. You want to talk basketball? I'm here. But until then, suffice it to say I won't be responding to your long-winded, generic, not-remotely-researched takes, and I certainly won't be responding to your posts in this thread, which have gone completely off the rails and have literally nothing to do with basketball or Klay Thompson anymore.

If you don't want to believe me when I say things, that's totally your prerogative, and there's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. But I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this. I have better things to do with my time than not argue sports on an internet sports forum.

Sounds like a tap out. You take no ownership over your missteps. I've openly been willing to concede to subjectvie elements of arguments, but hold you accountable for the polarizing way in which you frame the conversation (the most extreme option), and your hypocritical double-speak (you don't care what peopel on PSD think, yet you start a conversation with them; you don't think a poll means anything, yet you start one; you ask whether Klay is the most overrated, yet you concede that voters of All-NBA and All-Defensive teams rank him where he should; you complain about somebody relying on semiotics, yet you point out typos in your responses).

And on top of all that, you regularily mischaricterize people's arguments, project something onto them they didn't say, and then argue against that.

You won't speak to any of that. Why? Because you have nothing to stand on.

Look, if you don't think 'language' and logical structures to an argument are important, then you should just stop talking. Because guess what, even when you are talking about basketball, THEY ARE. This is not a mathematical formula. You can just throw X+Y=Z > Klay. That's not how it works.


You got one set of rules for yourself, and another set for everybody who disagrees with you.

I'm saying this to call you out o your horse$#!t.

But kudos to you for tapping out when you realize that you've talked yourself into a cicrcle and have nothing to undercut what I've said.

Klay is simply, and quantifiably not the most overrated player in the league, because no pundits, sports writers, players, GMs, or coaches are putting this top-ten, or even top 15, or likely even the top 20 from what I see. He's in the conversation as one of the best shooting guards in the league because his primary jobs, which are shooting and defending, are both done at an elite level, and with respect to shooting, are done at a historic level (the guy has been in the league 7 seasons and never once averaged less than .400 from the arc: pretty and never once took less than 4 3's a game for a season: pretty rare club). For that alone, he deserves to be in the converation as one of the best at his position, even if he isn't a stellar playmaker and is only a decent rebounder, and doesn't draw as many fouls as some, and even if his offensive game isn't terribly varied and diverse (which I don't even agree with: the guy shoots over .500 inside the arc where over half his shots come from).

He's a professional teammate and player. He is unslefish. Fits extremely well into whatever system he has been put in (either under Kerr or Jackson). Shoots at a historic level. Shares the ball. Takes care of the ball. Plays stellar defense. Gets a reasonable share of rebounds given his role on the team and the way it is structured. He's in the conversation as one of the best shooting guards, and as an All-Star in the league, and not much more, and that is reasonable. It does not, as YOUR question asks, make him the 'most overrated palyer in the league'. Rather somebody who is generally appreciated for what he brings to the table.

That's a reasonable answer to the question you posted. If you want somebody to speak to your statistical analysis of why he isn't as good as player X, Y, and Z, then put that in your title next time.


I suggest you take a step back and consider your approach here. It would be helpful for you. At least, that's the impression that I get. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIGMUAMevH0)

Scoots
01-19-2018, 10:46 AM
you complain about somebody relying on semiotics, yet you point out typos in your responses).

Actually he complained about semantic arguments, not semiotics. Semantics is about the logic and meaning of language, semiotics is about the interpretation of signs. It's tough when you are critical of someone's language and get it wrong yourself. I love semantic arguments AND I'm a pedant :)

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 12:18 PM
To be fair, in the middle of that long post he did say:

Which is actually on point.

I think we should remember than Klay Thompson's singular on court performance single handedly lead directly to KD joining the Warriors. https://youtu.be/09AqpNPiZ8g

That's a totally fair point, but it's kind of hard to find the actual basketball points amid his incessant ramblings. I'm done with the guy, and he's joined my very short ignore list, something I think I've only done like 2-3 times in my 10+ years on PSD.

Regarding his basketball point, I can understand that. But I think those are all surface level arguments that don't really look at how he's producing in relation to his peers. As I said in my original post, I think he has one skill that he's especially elite at and continues to improve in year in and year out. But he's not really making strides in the rest of his game, and he hasn't really evolved as a player to anything more than an exceptional 3 and D player.

And, yes, he has had a few bright spots in the playoffs, particularly in that stretch in 2015-16. But he's like Harden in that regard, where the negatives clearly have outweighed the positives.

Chronz
01-19-2018, 01:09 PM
Ignore list? Nobody actually uses that , you better change your mind. We don't need safe spaces here man

Vee-Rex
01-19-2018, 01:17 PM
Ignore list? Nobody actually uses that , you better change your mind. We don't need safe spaces here man

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/81134148/someone-would-disagree-about-needing-safe-spaces.jpg

Chronz
01-19-2018, 01:22 PM
I give that 1 cackle. A hearty cackle for the puss

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 01:54 PM
Ignore list? Nobody actually uses that , you better change your mind. We don't need safe spaces here man

Meh. I'm getting to that age where I just don't have the energy to care about these stupid little spats about the minutiae of things that have nothing to do with sports. If I come to PSD, I want to talk basketball because it's my one real outlet to do that, not get lost in asinine arguments. I don't have time to waste arguing just for the sake of arguing like I did in my 20s, and I don't really have patience for people who do.

tredigs
01-19-2018, 01:57 PM
Ignore list? Nobody actually uses that , you better change your mind. We don't need safe spaces here man

The Flashbolt zone?

ewing
01-19-2018, 02:04 PM
He's not the most overrated guy on his team

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 02:06 PM
He's not the most overrated guy on his team
Now that's an interesting take. Who on the Warriors do you feel is more overrated?

ewing
01-19-2018, 02:12 PM
Now that's an interesting take. Who on the Warriors do you feel is more overrated?


Have you seen Iggy to the HOF thread?

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 02:26 PM
Have you seen Iggy to the HOF thread?

:laugh: Fair point. God knows how many hours I wasted arguing against that. But I've got to think those few (truly misguided) posters who believed Iggy belonged in the Hall were looking more at his overall body of work than his current standing in the league today. And I don't think "Iggy deserves to be in the Hall one day" is a national narrative the way I'm seeing Thompson getting credit as a star player.

Scoots
01-19-2018, 02:51 PM
That's a totally fair point, but it's kind of hard to find the actual basketball points amid his incessant ramblings. I'm done with the guy, and he's joined my very short ignore list, something I think I've only done like 2-3 times in my 10+ years on PSD.

Regarding his basketball point, I can understand that. But I think those are all surface level arguments that don't really look at how he's producing in relation to his peers. As I said in my original post, I think he has one skill that he's especially elite at and continues to improve in year in and year out. But he's not really making strides in the rest of his game, and he hasn't really evolved as a player to anything more than an exceptional 3 and D player.

And, yes, he has had a few bright spots in the playoffs, particularly in that stretch in 2015-16. But he's like Harden in that regard, where the negatives clearly have outweighed the positives.

You think Klay's negatives have outweighed his positives? Just what negatives does he bring to the Warriors? Keep in mind they don't need him to handle the ball and create shots for others and they have him being the first one back on defense and offense so he's not being asked to rebound. I don't have Klay as the top SG in the NBA and I said earlier in this thread and in the past that this group of SGs is historically weak overall ... but Klay is not over-rated at all, let alone the MOST over-rated.

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 03:47 PM
You think Klay's negatives have outweighed his positives? Just what negatives does he bring to the Warriors? Keep in mind they don't need him to handle the ball and create shots for others and they have him being the first one back on defense and offense so he's not being asked to rebound.
Just in regards to the playoffs. As a player overall, I certainly think he's a huge positive to have on the floor in the regular season. But his postseason performance has been sorely lacking with the exception of 2016-17.


I don't have Klay as the top SG in the NBA and I said earlier in this thread and in the past that this group of SGs is historically weak overall ... but Klay is not over-rated at all, let alone the MOST over-rated.

Let me give you an example. I was talking to a coworker today about Klay, and how I think he's overrated. He's a sharp guy and knowledgable when it comes to the NBA, so I wanted to get his take. I told him that I ranked him fifth behind Harden, Butler, DeRozan and Oladipo, and not only was he shocked about Oladipo, but he was hesitant about Butler and DeRozan as well.

Then I busted out some stats, like how Thompson only takes 1.3 FTA a game, that 84 percent of his shots this season have been assisted and how poor his rebounds, assists and steals are. I didn't completely sway him, but he saw where I was coming from.

I just think Thompson gets more credit than he deserves for what he is: an exceptional 3 and D player. He doesn't create for others. He barely can create for himself. He doesn't get to the line. He doesn't attack the basket. He doesn't force turnovers. And he hasn't typically stepped up in the playoffs. But because he averages 20 a night, is an elite 3-point shooter and plays for the best team possibly in the history of the NBA, he gets a pass for all of his faults and gets brought up in conversations as better than guys who he's clearly nowhere as productive as.

Htownballa1622
01-19-2018, 04:44 PM
MBT, there was a poster (someone on inside) that posts on our home team forum and mentioned that growing speculation was that Klay may look to leave and be a max/number 1 option for a team after next season, so GSW MAY look to trade him before he left next year.

Maybe we get to see Klay's true worth by this trade deadline 2019?

Chronz
01-19-2018, 05:16 PM
Meh. I'm getting to that age where I just don't have the energy to care about these stupid little spats about the minutiae of things that have nothing to do with sports. If I come to PSD, I want to talk basketball because it's my one real outlet to do that, not get lost in asinine arguments. I don't have time to waste arguing just for the sake of arguing like I did in my 20s, and I don't really have patience for people who do.
Then just read it, digest it and let it burn deep inside of you. Don't stoop to that level of censorship. Thoughts that agitate us still serve a purpose. After all, the sign of an educated mind is to entertain thoughts not of our own. None of this is that serious, tbh, at this point I'm strictly posting because I've seen all you characters for far too long to just quit. I may post less frequently but I'll be here for the long haul. Jjh isn't that much of a contrarian

Chronz
01-19-2018, 05:18 PM
The Flashbolt zone?
I used to mistake he and ikh for so long. I wonder if any of us do the whole kd thing online. Not trying to start **** either, just curious if anyone would cat fish me here if I showed up for a game

mightybosstone
01-19-2018, 05:59 PM
Then just read it, digest it and let it burn deep inside of you. Don't stoop to that level of censorship. Thoughts that agitate us still serve a purpose. After all, the sign of an educated mind is to entertain thoughts not of our own. None of this is that serious, tbh, at this point I'm strictly posting because I've seen all you characters for far too long to just quit. I may post less frequently but I'll be here for the long haul. Jjh isn't that much of a contrarian

The thing is that I don't trust myself NOT to respond if I see the guy say something that gets on my nerves. I know that sounds immature, but I'm not strong enough not to say something. I haven't figured out how to do that yet. PSD has made me addicted to arguing with people I can't stand. I'm like a recovering alcoholic who can still hang out with people who drink and can still go to restaurants that serve alcohol, but just can't handle when someone else drinks in front of them.

Chronz
01-19-2018, 06:04 PM
Yeah I do that too. Maybe take yourself less seriously, I feel like you want to uphold some journalistic standard and it doesn't mesh with jjh filibuster style of debate some times

Scoots
01-19-2018, 07:01 PM
Just in regards to the playoffs. As a player overall, I certainly think he's a huge positive to have on the floor in the regular season. But his postseason performance has been sorely lacking with the exception of 2016-17.



Let me give you an example. I was talking to a coworker today about Klay, and how I think he's overrated. He's a sharp guy and knowledgable when it comes to the NBA, so I wanted to get his take. I told him that I ranked him fifth behind Harden, Butler, DeRozan and Oladipo, and not only was he shocked about Oladipo, but he was hesitant about Butler and DeRozan as well.

Then I busted out some stats, like how Thompson only takes 1.3 FTA a game, that 84 percent of his shots this season have been assisted and how poor his rebounds, assists and steals are. I didn't completely sway him, but he saw where I was coming from.

I just think Thompson gets more credit than he deserves for what he is: an exceptional 3 and D player. He doesn't create for others. He barely can create for himself. He doesn't get to the line. He doesn't attack the basket. He doesn't force turnovers. And he hasn't typically stepped up in the playoffs. But because he averages 20 a night, is an elite 3-point shooter and plays for the best team possibly in the history of the NBA, he gets a pass for all of his faults and gets brought up in conversations as better than guys who he's clearly nowhere as productive as.

So ... you gave a list of 2 western conference SGs you consider better ... and chances are both make the all-star game ahead of Thompson and Thompson is a bubble all-star with Lillard. That's really consistent with what people everywhere are saying. He's really good but not the best.

And relying on his assist and rebounding stats or his assisted shots stats to show how he's not that great a player is kind of missing the point. His role in the Warriors offense is to run without the ball, and to shoot it when he catches it. Something he arguably does better than anyone else in the NBA. The Warriors don't ask him to rebound and they don't ask him to create ... any time he's rebounding he's not getting back on D or out on O. They don't ask him to dribble to create very often because Green, Livingston, Iguodala, and West are going to be handling the ball and setting screens while Klay runs off of them to get the pass ... if Thompson had the ball the offense changes completely because those 4 don't run off screens to shoot, it's not their game.

The playoff performances are certainly more of a thing, but in the playoffs iso ball becomes more of a thing and denying catch and shoot is easier, but his performances in the playoffs overall haven't suffered. He's been even better on D in the playoffs.

So, again, great player, not the best ... generally not over-rated either.

tredigs
01-19-2018, 07:51 PM
Alright, so the results are in! More than 2/3rds of participants rate Klay in the 16-25 range.

So, I ask. Klay Thompson, most appropriately rated player in the league?

tredigs
01-19-2018, 07:54 PM
I used to mistake he and ikh for so long. I wonder if any of us do the whole kd thing online. Not trying to start **** either, just curious if anyone would cat fish me here if I showed up for a game
Hahah. Oh I GUARANTEE there's been at least a handful of dudes here that were actually on multiple screen names. It would be a great way for an admin to drum up interest in his sites threads to be honest. Just make up four different screen names to start a debate and get the ball rolling for others. I bet that's happened on various forums a thousand times.

Vee-Rex
01-19-2018, 09:01 PM
The thing is that I don't trust myself NOT to respond if I see the guy say something that gets on my nerves. I know that sounds immature, but I'm not strong enough not to say something. I haven't figured out how to do that yet. PSD has made me addicted to arguing with people I can't stand. I'm like a recovering alcoholic who can still hang out with people who drink and can still go to restaurants that serve alcohol, but just can't handle when someone else drinks in front of them.

When it reaches that point, just activate the "troll" gear. It alleviates the need to bicker pointlessly. I don't recall you ever trolling anyone so it may take time for yours to develop.

That, or up your meme game. If applied correctly, memes trump everything. Fact.

KnicksorBust
01-19-2018, 10:11 PM
Ignore list? Nobody actually uses that , you better change your mind. We don't need safe spaces here man

There are times I would rather argue with a troll than a rational human being. They give you that fire to write something obnoxiously long. Maybe still not jjh long but close.

JasonJohnHorn
01-19-2018, 10:13 PM
Actually he complained about semantic arguments, not semiotics. Semantics is about the logic and meaning of language, semiotics is about the interpretation of signs. It's tough when you are critical of someone's language and get it wrong yourself. I love semantic arguments AND I'm a pedant :)

That is very true good sir. Very true.

KnicksorBust
01-19-2018, 10:16 PM
Alright, so the results are in! More than 2/3rds of participants rate Klay in the 16-25 range.

So, I ask. Klay Thompson, most appropriately rated player in the league?

Humor me. We wake up tomorrow find out the Knicks traded Tim Hardaway Jr and 11 nonconsecutive draft picks for Klay Thompson. Jarrett Jack is his backcourt teammate. Lance Thomas on the wing. How does Klay do? Would people still consider him borderline top 20? Would he go up or down with his new usage bump?

breakbad
01-19-2018, 10:28 PM
If he's over-rated then I want to be over-rated too. lmao
And I want the Lakers to sign over-rated players, namely him, after next season.

I think the fact that he is often talked about as over-rated and the fourth best player on his own team, in fact makes him under-rated. Just like playing on super teams did to Bosh and has done to Love. The Warriors are probably the best team ever because each of their big 4 fit exactly perfect and are all equally important or "good", in my opinion.

As seems obvious, Steph and KD are the best of the 4, right? From one perspective, sure. But you could also argue Klay and Dray are better because either of them could fit seamlessly with Westbrook, or anyone really, and be just as important as if they were carrying a team offensively. Steph is awesome because he's so unselfish he could also probably make it work with anyone, but he just isn't as good at all the other stuff outside of scoring as Klay is. So yeah, I feel like he's under-rated, not over-rated.

JasonJohnHorn
01-19-2018, 10:57 PM
You think Klay's negatives have outweighed his positives? Just what negatives does he bring to the Warriors? Keep in mind they don't need him to handle the ball and create shots for others and they have him being the first one back on defense and offense so he's not being asked to rebound. I don't have Klay as the top SG in the NBA and I said earlier in this thread and in the past that this group of SGs is historically weak overall ... but Klay is not over-rated at all, let alone the MOST over-rated.

This is a great point. People look at per game averages and often fail to consider context.

With respect to passing, Klay is an adept passer. He is on a team that requires a lot of passing. the ball comes through his hands over 20 times a game and he causes less than 2 turnovers a game. This is something that is grossly underrated in the league and by a lot of fans.

I wouldn't argue with anybody who suggests that Klay isn't a great 'play maker'. He doesn't 'create' for other players, but within a system that requires a good passer, and a guy who can take care of the ball, he's great. So even if he isn't getting a lot of assists. And even if he isn't creating, he's an effective passer and works very well in the system. His shooting creates excellent spacing, which opens things up for a lot of guys, and his willingness to share and ability to pass effectively while not creating a lot of turnovers is one of the cogs in the Warriors systems that allows it t run so effectively.

It's a great point about the rebounding as well. When you have solid rebounders on a team in the front court, you don't need your guards to crash the boards. Sure... Westbrook chases down the triple doubles and so runs after boards, but it is helpful to have a guy getting back on offense or defense. If that's what your coach wants you to do.

As a Pistons fan, I think Joe Dumars is a great example of this. He didn't average mange rebounds a game throughout his career. 2.2 a game? Not impressive. But he was a great shooter in the era (where it was more about being a good mid-range shooter and 3's weren't as big a part of the game), and a great defender. Daly ran a system and eveyrbody had a role. Teammates trust each other to cover their end, so if guys like Laimbeer, and Sally and Rodman are crashing the glass, guys like Dumars can either run up to get the offense going or get back on defense.

There are certainly better all-around players than Klay at his postion, but few who carry more of an impact.

People get overly impressed with guys who have great invidivual stats (and for good reason), but they often forget that basketball is a team game. Guys who make great teammates are just as impressive for to me.

tredigs
01-20-2018, 12:10 AM
Humor me. We wake up tomorrow find out the Knicks traded Tim Hardaway Jr and 11 nonconsecutive draft picks for Klay Thompson. Jarrett Jack is his backcourt teammate. Lance Thomas on the wing. How does Klay do? Would people still consider him borderline top 20? Would he go up or down with his new usage bump?
Honestly I doubt much would change. He might get 2-3 more shots a game due to being a more featured player, and would probably see his efficiency take a dip into the ~45% FG range, but Klay's a ~20-25 point 4 rebound, 3 assist guy through and through. He's not very good at creating his own looks, so you wouldn't see him trying to ISO or any thing. But even on the Warriors alongside Curry, Klay's man always knows exactly where he is, and I don't think he's left all that many more easier shots than he'd see in most systems. Overall, he's a top 18-25 guy (you can argue a few higher or a few lower) regardless of where he's playing.

JasonJohnHorn
01-20-2018, 10:08 AM
Humor me. We wake up tomorrow find out the Knicks traded Tim Hardaway Jr and 11 nonconsecutive draft picks for Klay Thompson. Jarrett Jack is his backcourt teammate. Lance Thomas on the wing. How does Klay do? Would people still consider him borderline top 20? Would he go up or down with his new usage bump?

People used to say "Curry is a system player." He's proven them wrong. People have accepted how amazing he is. So now what do they do? "Klay is a system player."

It's simply not fair.

As a rookie in Mark Jackson's system, with Curry missing 3/4's of the season, Klay, who had no NBA experience, posted 12 a game while shooting over .400 from the arc. As a rookie.

To think that he wouldn't be able to post 20+ a game with similar (though likely less) efficiency seems to be to be unreasonable.

Would he be as effective with Jarrett Jack as Curry? Of course not. Neither woudl KD. Hell... KD wasn't as good with Westbrook.

And most stars would struggle with a supporting team like that.

Melo was on the Knicks with little support and was still highly regarded as a player. I think Klay would be to. I admit to his limitations as a player, but his overall skill is amazing, and being on a team that has a depth of talent, we haven't gotten a chance to see everything he can do.

And a player in NY almost always gets ranked higher than he ought to because it is a big market that gets lots of explosure. I mean hell... even David Lee was getting advertising contracts when he was in NY.

Chronz
01-20-2018, 01:46 PM
Alright, so the results are in! More than 2/3rds of participants rate Klay in the 16-25 range.

So, I ask. Klay Thompson, most appropriately rated player in the league?
So 3pt shooting makes him far better than his productive value?