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WaDe03
01-11-2018, 03:23 PM
Where do you rank Jimmy Butler in the league? The GOAT Wade said he was top 6 but I can't put him that high. He is in my top 10 though for sure. In terms of being a 2 way player he may be the 2nd best in the league. Some will say Durant but I think most of his defensive success is due to the system he's in and the help he has around him. From Jimmy we've seen elite defense in Chicago and now Minny and he has basically turned this team to a top 4 seed in the West on his own.

0. Wade
1. LeBron
2. KD
3. Curry
4. Harden
5. Kawhi
6. Westbrook
7. Giannis/Butler
8. Giannis/Butler
9. AD
10. CP3/Cousins

So I have him right there with Giannis. I forgot to mention Jimmy is clutch as **** too and I feel Giannis lack of shooting from anywhere puts them on a level field, maybe even favors Jimmy a little. As for AD and Cousins being ranked below, they're freaks but as the top dogs they just don't produce wins. Now if they were 2nd to someone listed in the top 5 they would probably help produce a lot of wins but that isn't the case. CP3 seems to be a little too up and down/injured for me so far this year but he seems to be putting it together so he may jump again.

Where do you rank Jimmy and why?

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 03:36 PM
I'd have him in the top 10-15 range. Really could go anywhere but I still think Paul George is the better player so I can't realistically put him above PG in any case. I'm more concerned about Minny's playoff struggles than anything so top four in West doesn't mean much at all. Like in the playoffs, I'd trust OKC more than Minny.

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 03:38 PM
I'd have him in the top 10-15 range. Really could go anywhere but I still think Paul George is the better player so I can't realistically put him above PG in any case. I'm more concerned about Minny's playoff struggles than anything so top four in West doesn't mean much at all. Like in the playoffs, I'd trust OKC more than Minny.

I think he passed PG up last year and is proving it again so far this year. Actually doesn't seem that close at this point. I agree with you on the playoffs though, the Thunders star power seems to have them in better shape. Star wise the Wolves have Jimmy and to a lesser extent Towns since he doesn't know what deeense is. Idk though, they seem to be putting it together lately.

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 03:43 PM
I think he is behind Gianniss but you are pretty close. Right around the AD/Cousins type guys and ahead of players like PG so top 10, right at the back end somewhere.

He started out the year poorly while letting young guys (KAT/Wiggins do more but has since taken over. Luckily that has lead to the Towns I thought I would see this year defensively as well, I was getting worried to start the year.

Has Towns been better defensively lately?

mngopher35
01-11-2018, 03:45 PM
I think he is behind Gianniss but you are pretty close. Right around the AD/Cousins type guys and ahead of players like PG so top 10, right at the back end somewhere.

He started out the year poorly while letting young guys (KAT/Wiggins do more but has since taken over. Luckily that has lead to the Towns I thought I would see this year defensively as well, I was getting worried to start the year.

Scoots
01-11-2018, 03:47 PM
If he keeps playing like he has been the last month then he's around 10.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 03:49 PM
I think he passed PG up last year and is proving it again so far this year. Actually doesn't seem that close at this point. I agree with you on the playoffs though, the Thunders star power seems to have them in better shape. Star wise the Wolves have Jimmy and to a lesser extent Towns since he doesn't know what deeense is. Idk though, they seem to be putting it together lately.

PG's shooting ability is why I'd prefer PG. he's also bigger and is lengthier so he's more versatile. I think if you're trying to win, PG would be a better option. He's finally on a team where he isn't the 1st option and he's shooting 44%. That's on 7 attempts, btw.

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 03:53 PM
PG's shooting ability is why I'd prefer PG. he's also bigger and is lengthier so he's more versatile. I think if you're trying to win, PG would be a better option. He's finally on a team where he isn't the 1st option and he's shooting 44%. That's on 7 attempts, btw.

Yea he's been good, I guess I just expected a little more. I'll take Jimmy as he's he better defender and I can trust him way more in the clutch than I can PG. Both are 2 of my favorite players but I think Jimmy passed him up awhile ago. PG still hasn't looked the same to me since his injury but maybe he's coasting, he was good in the playoffs last year.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 03:57 PM
Dude, Butler is better than PG.

mngopher35
01-11-2018, 04:05 PM
Ya PG is better at shooting 3's but Butler is better at getting inside and attacking at the rim which evens out their scoring efficiency as a whole with FT's etc included (similar points and TS%). However Butler is a better defender and passer/playmaker. His playmaking being better is also boosted by having less turnovers. This makes him the more efficient player overall when you add this to their scoring. So he is a similar scorer, better playmaker, and more efficient overall offensively

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 04:10 PM
Also PGs clutch numbers are about as bad as it gets. Like 0/32 or something on game winners is what I believe I saw awhile ago. Jimmy made every go ahead shot or free throw in the last seconds of the game in his career until last year where he missed a game winner towards the end of the season. It was a tough fadeaway 3 from the corner. Idk if his numbers are still that ridiculous in the clutch this year as I haven't watched every game but in the games I've watched he's hit some clutch shots. It doesn't matter if they're 2s or 3s either, he just has that clutch gene.

I will say it's a damn shame they didn't trade Kyrie for Jimmy like the rumors were last summer.

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 04:12 PM
I think Butler is in my top 10. Is he better than AD? Is he better than the Greek Freak? Also, I happen to think Klay Thompson is still massively underrated and probably the most disrespected player in the league. I think he could basically do what Butler does... lead a team, score efficiently, and play great perimeter defense. All that and Klay is a much better shooter. I think I give him the slight edge.

1) Lebron
2) Durant
3) Curry
4) Harden
5) Kawhi
6) Westbrook
7) Greek Freak
8) AD
9) Klay
10) Butler

He just makes the cut although several of these spots are interchangeable. Cousins, CP3, and Kyrie just miss the cut.

I agree with your list mostly but Klay isn't better than Butler and doesn't lead a team. Klays a better shooter but that's it.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 04:13 PM
I think Butler is in my top 10. Is he better than AD? Is he better than the Greek Freak? Also, I happen to think Klay Thompson is still massively underrated and probably the most disrespected player in the league. I think he could basically do what Butler does... lead a team, score efficiently, and play great perimeter defense. All that and Klay is a much better shooter. I think I give him the slight edge.

1) Lebron
2) Durant
3) Curry
4) Harden
5) Kawhi
6) Westbrook
7) Greek Freak
8) AD
9) Klay
10) Butler

He just makes the cut although several of these spots are interchangeable. Cousins, CP3, Kyrie, and KAT just miss the cut.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 04:20 PM
Ya PG is better at shooting 3's but Butler is better at getting inside and attacking at the rim which evens out their scoring efficiency as a whole with FT's etc included (similar points and TS%). However Butler is a better defender and passer/playmaker. His playmaking being better is also boosted by having less turnovers. This makes him the more efficient player overall when you add this to their scoring. So he is a similar scorer, better playmaker, and more efficient overall offensively

Much better defensively and more efficient offensively... I don't see the argument for PG. All you gotta do is look at how bad the Bulls are now and how much better the Wolves became.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 04:21 PM
Ya PG is better at shooting 3's but Butler is better at getting inside and attacking at the rim which evens out their scoring efficiency as a whole with FT's etc included (similar points and TS%). However Butler is a better defender and passer/playmaker. His playmaking being better is also boosted by having less turnovers. This makes him the more efficient player overall when you add this to their scoring. So he is a similar scorer, better playmaker, and more efficient overall offensively

Butler is the better overall player but I disagree on the defense. They're both equally great defenders. I mean, PG has made the All Defensive teams as well. He's also leading the league in steals and those are one-on-one perimeter defense skills. Not the steals Curry gets from roaming. I haven't watched a whole ton of Minny games. Probably 3-4 max this season but from his Chicago days, I felt Butler had to pound the ball more. Individually, there isn't a problem with that but when you're on a stacked team, I feel PG would fit in better and that's where I think his value as a player surpasses Butler.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 04:22 PM
Much better defensively and more efficient offensively... I don't see the argument for PG. All you gotta do is look at how bad the Bulls are now and how much better the Wolves became.

What makes Butler much better defensively? They're both great. I feel like people throw around words that aren't really necessary. Much better? Than PG? Who has been on All Defensive Teams deservingly so for many seasons?

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 04:24 PM
Off the top of my head, considering the last 2-3 years, but with an emphasis on this season, my list would look something like:

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Harden
4. Curry
5. Giannis
6. Kawhi
7. Kyrie
8. Paul
9. Westbrook
10. Davis
11. Cousins
12. Butler

The top six are locks for me, with Westbrook and Kawhi getting knocked down a few spots due to sub-par play and injuries, respectively. Giannis, Kyrie and Cousins move up a few spots for me because of their performances this season while Butler is down slightly because of the slow start. Prior to this year, I probably had Butler right around that 9-11 range. He's definitely in that 11-15 range for me today with a chance to move into the top 10 if he keeps playing like he has in December and January.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 04:27 PM
To defend PG's case, I've seen him defend four positions. Center, he hasn't been capable because he's too thin but he's capable of defending smaller PF's, PG's, SG's, and SF's. His versatility on defense is what I like most from him defensively. JB might be the better man defender but PG's versatility helps us out a lot on many matchups.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 04:30 PM
The difference between being a great player and a very good player is that a great player makes any team a great fit whereas a very good player needs the right fit to perform at a high level.

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 04:34 PM
To defend PG's case, I've seen him defend four positions. Center, he hasn't been capable because he's too thin but he's capable of defending smaller PF's, PG's, SG's, and SF's. His versatility on defense is what I like most from him defensively. JB might be the better man defender but PG's versatility helps us out a lot on many matchups.

I've always liked George, but he's just not quite on Butler's level. Jimmy kills PG in every relevant advanced statistical category, and it's not close. Now I don't think the difference between them is quite as large as the metrics say, but I would certainly put Butler at least 3-5 spots higher in any ranking of current top players.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 05:23 PM
I've always liked George, but he's just not quite on Butler's level. Jimmy kills PG in every relevant advanced statistical category, and it's not close. Now I don't think the difference between them is quite as large as the metrics say, but I would certainly put Butler at least 3-5 spots higher in any ranking of current top players.

That's fair. I just choose PG for his better fit and versatility. I mean, Draymond isn't even a top 20 player individually but because of his fit and versatility, he's ranked highly. It's always been close to me.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 05:25 PM
The difference between being a great player and a very good player is that a great player makes any team a great fit whereas a very good player needs the right fit to perform at a high level.

Which team wouldn't PG fit? He's a very versatile player capable of guarding many positions while also being able to transition from SF-SG-PF. Very good spot up shooter. He's been learning since coming to OKC but has been lights out for us on hockey pass to the three. You would think a championship contender being one piece away would benefit heavily from PG.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 05:26 PM
Off the top of my head, considering the last 2-3 years, but with an emphasis on this season, my list would look something like:

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Harden
4. Curry
5. Giannis
6. Kawhi
7. Kyrie
8. Paul
9. Westbrook
10. Davis
11. Cousins
12. Butler

The top six are locks for me, with Westbrook and Kawhi getting knocked down a few spots due to sub-par play and injuries, respectively. Giannis, Kyrie and Cousins move up a few spots for me because of their performances this season while Butler is down slightly because of the slow start. Prior to this year, I probably had Butler right around that 9-11 range. He's definitely in that 11-15 range for me today with a chance to move into the top 10 if he keeps playing like he has in December and January.

Kyrie's a bit high on your list. I have him in the top 10-15 range. I don't see how he's better than Davis at all.

lol, please
01-11-2018, 05:28 PM
Don't care how high or low you rate Butler, as long as it isn't above Klay Thompson who is a better player in every regard.

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WaDe03
01-11-2018, 05:30 PM
Don't care how high or low you rate Butler, as long as it isn't above Klay Thompson who is a better player in every regard.

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Do not bring your trolling to my thread!

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 05:31 PM
Kyrie's a bit high on your list. I have him in the top 10-15 range. I don't see how he's better than Davis at all.

Yea I agree, Kyrie is definitely too high. I have him somewhere outside of 12th.

lol, please
01-11-2018, 05:37 PM
Do not bring your trolling to my thread!I'm like the 3rd person to say so in here lol.

And even if we agree on only shooting, it's still enough of a difference to tip the scale in his favor. Give me the guy with ATG shooting and elite defense over the guy with good but not great shooting and marginally better defense every time lol.

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WaDe03
01-11-2018, 05:39 PM
I'm like the 3rd person to say so in here lol.

And even if we agree on only shooting, it's still enough of a difference to tip the scale in his favor. Give me the guy with ATG shooting and elite defense over the guy with good but not great shooting and marginally better defense every time lol.

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You're the 2nd and you're both Warriors fans and his favorite player is Klay lol! He is not better than Jimmy. He's probably in the 20-25 range.

lol, please
01-11-2018, 05:46 PM
You're the 2nd and you're both Warriors fans and his favorite player is Klay lol! He is not better than Jimmy. He's probably in the 20-25 range.Klay > Butler

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WaDe03
01-11-2018, 05:50 PM
Klay > Butler

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Wade > Klay and Jimmy fusion

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 05:58 PM
This guy really thinks Klay is a better defender than Jimmy B? lol.

Redrum187
01-11-2018, 05:59 PM
My heart is breaking for the lack of love Kawhi is getting in some people's list. I get it, he is injured this season, but the guy is the best 2-way player in the NBA. :(

1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Durant
5. Harden
6. Giannis
7. CP3
8. Davis
9. Westbrook
10. Butler/Cousins

I might be in the minority, but I strongly believe Curry > Durant. Kawhi and Curry are really close to me, but I have to put my boner and homerism aside and say Curry might be a hair better overall. :(

Vee-Rex
01-11-2018, 06:09 PM
Whaaaat? You guys are actually rating Kyrie higher than #20 now? gtfoh!

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 06:23 PM
Whaaaat? You guys are actually rating Kyrie higher than #20 now? gtfoh!

The people who said he wasn't top 20 are the ones who thought Lowry was better. Man, those were some fun times.

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 06:32 PM
Kyrie's a bit high on your list. I have him in the top 10-15 range. I don't see how he's better than Davis at all.

I didn't put a ton of thought into it, to be honest. But I've always been kind of lukewarm on Davis. I'm not crazy about guys who can't stay healthy or have no postseason experience, and he hits both red flags for me. The 7-10 guys on my list are pretty much interchangeable, though, with Cousins and Butler just behind those four.

I do think Kyrie deserves to be in the top 10, though. And if I have to measure his performance this season against other point guards on the list, I'd give him the edge over Paul and Westy right now.

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 06:36 PM
My heart is breaking for the lack of love Kawhi is getting in some people's list. I get it, he is injured this season, but the guy is the best 2-way player in the NBA. :(

1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Durant
5. Harden
6. Giannis
7. CP3
8. Davis
9. Westbrook
10. Butler/Cousins

I might be in the minority, but I strongly believe Curry > Durant. Kawhi and Curry are really close to me, but I have to put my boner and homerism aside and say Curry might be a hair better overall. :(

If last season's Kawhi comes back, then the guy is pretty much a lock as a top 3 player on my list. But I need to see that guy again. There was a pretty big leap in his game from 2016 to 2017, and I'm reluctant to give too much credit to one-hit wonders until they prove they can do it again. But nobody was really calling him a top 5 player prior to last season, and he falls back to 2016 level, I'm not sure he still belongs in that conversation.

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 06:45 PM
If last season's Kawhi comes back, then the guy is pretty much a lock as a top 3 player on my list. But I need to see that guy again. There was a pretty big leap in his game from 2016 to 2017, and I'm reluctant to give too much credit to one-hit wonders until they prove they can do it again. But nobody was really calling him a top 5 player prior to last season, and he falls back to 2016 level, I'm not sure he still belongs in that conversation.

Might be awhile, apparently he tore something in his shoulder. Not sure when he'll be back n

lol, please
01-11-2018, 06:53 PM
This guy really thinks Klay is a better defender than Jimmy B? lol.Even if he isn't, the difference isn't big enough for it to be a ridiculous statement either way. I not only consider him the better defender but the better player period.

I have to eat, shower, and do some stuff or I would elaborate on their stats, usage, and why I think so even with Butler being ahead in WS and BPM thus far this season.

This is this season mind you, if we mean all time, I even more strongly side with Klay.

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Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 07:07 PM
Which team wouldn't PG fit? He's a very versatile player capable of guarding many positions while also being able to transition from SF-SG-PF. Very good spot up shooter. He's been learning since coming to OKC but has been lights out for us on hockey pass to the three. You would think a championship contender being one piece away would benefit heavily from PG.

I don't think he's a great fit on his current team to be honest.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 07:08 PM
Klay Thompson is the most underrated player in the league. The guy gets no respect. All he does is produce with or without Steph/Durant on the court.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 07:11 PM
My heart is breaking for the lack of love Kawhi is getting in some people's list. I get it, he is injured this season, but the guy is the best 2-way player in the NBA. :(

1. LeBron
2. Curry
3. Kawhi
4. Durant
5. Harden
6. Giannis
7. CP3
8. Davis
9. Westbrook
10. Butler/Cousins

I might be in the minority, but I strongly believe Curry > Durant. Kawhi and Curry are really close to me, but I have to put my boner and homerism aside and say Curry might be a hair better overall. :(

Injuries bump him down. I love Kawhi. I thought he was the 2nd best player in the league at points last year. I still think he can be that good. There isn't a lot separating him from the guys I have ranked ahead of him, but it's hard to go against Durant, Curry, and Harden right now. They are all close to each other though, with Lebron still the clear king.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-11-2018, 07:13 PM
BTW as a Kings fan who has watched plenty of Cousins in recent years... there is no way Klay is worse than him. No chance in hell. The Kings couldn't win with him and the Pelicans can barely scrape their way to .500 with him joining Anthony Davis. His defense is trash and he can be really inefficient at times, especially for a big. Don't let the number fool you. And are we really gonna rank CP3 ahead of Klay too? The guy has trouble staying healthy these days. Klay is one of the best shooters all time and a plus defender. He's also very underrated putting the ball on the floor and he produces no matter who else is on the floor. The Warriors won a record breaking 73 games BEFORE Durant came to town. That says something about Klay that everyone is taking him for granted.

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 07:21 PM
Klay Thompson is the most underrated player in the league. The guy gets no respect. All he does is produce with or without Steph/Durant on the court.

I think Klay is overrated, frankly. Yes, he's an unbelievable shooter, a very good scorer and a well above average perimeter defender. But when has he ever been forced to be the alpha dog at any point in his career? And now that he's got Durant, he can completely disappear for large chunks of games or even stretches of the season, and nobody notices because they're still blowing teams out by double digits every night.

Throw in the fact that he's been truly abysmal at times in the playoffs, and I just don't get why anyone would see him as a top 10 player in the league. He doesn't create for others, he doesn't rebound at a high level, and although he's a great defender, he's probably the third or fourth best defender on his own team. And have you ever looked at his advanced statistics? Literally nothing about them says "elite player."

In terms of the four future Hall of Famers on that Golden State team, Klay is easily the most expendable. At some point, that will force him to leave the Warriors, and he'll probably sign a huge deal for some mediocre team. Hell, he'll probably put up ridiculous numbers on that team taking 20+ shots a night. But I'm not sure that team will be very good, because I'm not sure a team with Klay Thompson as its best player can succeed in the NBA.

Edit: One more point about Klay I'll make, and then I'll shut up. But he NEVER goes to the free throw line, like ever. Dude averages only 1.3 FTA per game this season, and the most he's ever averaged is 3.3 per game. And you might say, "That just shows he's scoring points 'the right way.' He's just not flopping like everybody else!" But that illustrates a larger point about his game—he rarely ever drives to the basket. Only 12.2 percent of his shot attempts this season have come within 3 feet of the rim, and a shocking 68.6 percent of his shots come 16 feet or further from the basket.

Now that's not a problem if you're a second or third option catching passes and drilling wide open looks every night. But how would he handle if he had to create for himself? You'll probably say "He creates for himself all the time!" But does he? According to 82games, he's been assisted on an astounding 84 percent of his shots this season. 84 percent! Now, Golden State is a team that likes to pass a lot, but Curry and Durant are assisted on about 51 and 58 percent of their shots, respectively, by comparison.

To put that into perspective, Capela on the Rockets is essentially just a pick and roll monster who slashes to the rim for layups and dunks. About 83 percent of his shots are assisted this season by comparison. That really should tell you something about Klay. Take him out of the Warriors, and you essentially have a perimeter jump shooter who can't create his own shot and doesn't get to the rim.

Stunner
01-11-2018, 07:22 PM
Dude, Butler is better than PG.

Yea for like the last 2 years people won’t admit this

lol, please
01-11-2018, 07:34 PM
I think Klay is overrated, frankly. Yes, he's an unbelievable shooter, a very good scorer and a well above average perimeter defender. But when has he ever been forced to be the alpha dog at any point in his career? And now that he's got Durant, he can completely disappear for large chunks of games or even stretches of the season, and nobody notices because they're still blowing teams out by double digits every night.

Throw in the fact that he's been truly abysmal at times in the playoffs, and I just don't get why anyone would see him as a top 10 player in the league. He doesn't create for others, he doesn't rebound at a high level, and although he's a great defender, he's probably the third or fourth best defender on his own team. And have you ever looked at his advanced statistics? Literally nothing about them says "elite player."

In terms of the four future Hall of Famers on that Golden State team, Klay is easily the most expendable. At some point, that will force him to leave the Warriors, and he'll probably sign a huge deal for some mediocre team. Hell, he'll probably put up ridiculous numbers on that team taking 20+ shots a night. But I'm not sure that team will be very good, because I'm not sure a team with Klay Thompson as its best player can succeed in the NBA.

1. We don't penalize players for being in situations they cannot control.

2. We don't assume a player cannot assume a role he has never been asked to assume without very good reason. Players deserve the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

3. He doesn't disappear or go unnoticed for spurts. He's a huge part of the offense to anyone paying attention to this team. Ditch that pre-Durant-acquisition narrative, it holds no weight.

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FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 07:36 PM
BTW as a Kings fan who has watched plenty of Cousins in recent years... there is no way Klay is worse than him. No chance in hell. The Kings couldn't win with him and the Pelicans can barely scrape their way to .500 with him joining Anthony Davis. His defense is trash and he can be really inefficient at times, especially for a big. Don't let the number fool you. And are we really gonna rank CP3 ahead of Klay too? The guy has trouble staying healthy these days. Klay is one of the best shooters all time and a plus defender. He's also very underrated putting the ball on the floor and he produces no matter who else is on the floor. The Warriors won a record breaking 73 games BEFORE Durant came to town. That says something about Klay that everyone is taking him for granted.

No one takes Klay for granted. He's just quiet so no one cares to. Plus, people expect the Warriors to wash every team away every game they play so there aren't many expectations for them at this point. I don't know if Klay is better than Cousins at all. I'd take Cousins over Klay because Cousins causes many problems. He's too skilled for many big C's and too big for small C's. Klay is a shooter. That's it. He's got very good defense but how much of that is accredited to the overall Warriors system? I mean, you can make a case Iggy+KD+Draymond are all better defenders than Klay. I'd be curious to see how Klay does with his own team or at least being the 2nd option. He might score bunches of points but I can't imagine him winning more than Cousins did.

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 07:37 PM
1. We don't penalize players for being in situations they cannot control.

2. He doesn't disappear or go unnoticed for spurts. He's a huge part of the offense to anyone paying attention to this team. Ditch that pre-Durant-acquisition narrative, it holds no weight.

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Really? Is that why he scored 10 points on 16 shots against the Clippers last week? Is that why three of his five games in the Finals last year, he scored 13 or fewer points, or why he averaged a pathetic 11 points per game against the Spurs on 32.7 percent shooting and 14 points a game against the Jazz on 43 percent shooting?

Klay Thompson is the luckiest star player in the NBA. Look how much flack guys like Harden and Paul get for supposed poor performance in the playoffs. If those guys played like Thompson did last year in the playoffs, they would get absolutely crucified for it. But he gets a free pass because his team wins anyway, and it glosses over his abysmal numbers.

I'll make this following point again, since I made it after my initial post for you. I'd love to see how you counter this...

Edit: One more point about Klay I'll make, and then I'll shut up. But he NEVER goes to the free throw line, like ever. Dude averages only 1.3 FTA per game this season, and the most he's ever averaged is 3.3 per game. And you might say, "That just shows he's scoring points 'the right way.' He's just not flopping like everybody else!" But that illustrates a larger point about his game—he rarely ever drives to the basket. Only 12.2 percent of his shot attempts this season have come within 3 feet of the rim, and a shocking 68.6 percent of his shots come 16 feet or further from the basket.

Now that's not a problem if you're a second or third option catching passes and drilling wide open looks every night. But how would he handle if he had to create for himself? You'll probably say "He creates for himself all the time!" But does he? According to 82games, he's been assisted on an astounding 84 percent of his shots this season. 84 percent! Now, Golden State is a team that likes to pass a lot, but Curry and Durant are assisted on about 51 and 58 percent of their shots, respectively, by comparison.

To put that into perspective, Capela on the Rockets is essentially just a pick and roll monster who slashes to the rim for layups and dunks. About 83 percent of his shots are assisted this season by comparison. That really should tell you something about Klay. Take him out of the Warriors, and you essentially have a perimeter jump shooter who can't create his own shot and doesn't get to the rim.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 07:38 PM
1. We don't penalize players for being in situations they cannot control.

2. We don't assume a player cannot assume a role he has never been asked to assume without very good reason. Players deserve the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

3. He doesn't disappear or go unnoticed for spurts. He's a huge part of the offense to anyone paying attention to this team. Ditch that pre-Durant-acquisition narrative, it holds no weight.

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He disappeared in the Finals numerous times. You hold zero credibility at this point if you forget how awful he was in some games.

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 07:38 PM
He disappeared in the Finals numerous times. You hold zero credibility at this point if you forget how awful he was in some games.

A lot* of games

WaDe03
01-11-2018, 07:39 PM
I don't really see a legit argument for Klay over Butler and no, Klay is not better than Cousins ether.

Jimmy and Cousins are top 10, borderline in Cousins situation. Klay is probably 20-25.

lol, please
01-11-2018, 07:41 PM
I'd be curious to see how Klay does with his own team or at least being the 2nd option.


If Klay wasn't the second option between DLee going down and Durant getting acquired, then who was?

:confused:

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WaDe03
01-11-2018, 07:48 PM
LeBron
KD
Steph
HArden
Kawhi
Westbrook
Butler
Giannis
AD
Cousins
CP3
Wall
IT
Hayward
Gasol
Dame
Towns
PG
Embiid
Derozan
Green
Griffin
Kristaps
Jokic
Conley

I think all those guys are for sure better than Klay then you have the debatable guys based on situation or guys knocking on the door:

CJ
Beal
Oladipo
Whiteside
Gobert
Drummond


Probably forgetting some.

lol, please
01-11-2018, 07:49 PM
Really? Is that why he scored 10 points on 16 shots against the Clippers last week? Is that why three of his five games in the Finals last year, he scored 13 or fewer points, or why he averaged a pathetic 11 points per game against the Spurs on 32.7 percent shooting and 14 points a game against the Jazz on 43 percent shooting?

Klay Thompson is the luckiest star player in the NBA. Look how much flack guys like Harden and Paul get for supposed poor performance in the playoffs. If those guys played like Thompson did last year in the playoffs, they would get absolutely crucified for it. But he gets a free pass because his team wins anyway, and it glosses over his abysmal numbers.

I'll make this following point again, since I made it after my initial post for you. I'd love to see how you counter this...

Edit: One more point about Klay I'll make, and then I'll shut up. But he NEVER goes to the free throw line, like ever. Dude averages only 1.3 FTA per game this season, and the most he's ever averaged is 3.3 per game. And you might say, "That just shows he's scoring points 'the right way.' He's just not flopping like everybody else!" But that illustrates a larger point about his game—he rarely ever drives to the basket. Only 12.2 percent of his shot attempts this season have come within 3 feet of the rim, and a shocking 68.6 percent of his shots come 16 feet or further from the basket.

Now that's not a problem if you're a second or third option catching passes and drilling wide open looks every night. But how would he handle if he had to create for himself? You'll probably say "He creates for himself all the time!" But does he? According to 82games, he's been assisted on an astounding 84 percent of his shots this season. 84 percent! Now, Golden State is a team that likes to pass a lot, but Curry and Durant are assisted on about 51 and 58 percent of their shots, respectively, by comparison.

To put that into perspective, Capela on the Rockets is essentially just a pick and roll monster who slashes to the rim for layups and dunks. About 83 percent of his shots are assisted this season by comparison. That really should tell you something about Klay. Take him out of the Warriors, and you essentially have a perimeter jump shooter who can't create his own shot and doesn't get to the rim.

Please don't nitpick a few games here and here, that Clippers game especially, it's petty to point at outliers. We can do that for anyone in the NBA.

Yea he had a sub par finals, won't deny it. Wasn't happy about it.

Sure, he isn't a complete player. How many are? He's an elite shooter, will probably go down as one of the greatest ever along with Curry, an elite two way player with elite defense, but there are holes in his game. The good news is that every season he's improved and I don't think he's peaked. His ball handling has improved over the seasons and continues to do so. He drives to the basket and gets to the line slightly more often. The fact that there's progress means there is growth and a focus to improve.

But acknowledging he has flaws and isn't s compete player, I still consider him superior to Butler. Like I told flashbolt, if the differences in defense is negligible (and to me it is) and one shooter is notable better than the other, give me the better shooter every time.

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mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 07:59 PM
Please don't nitpick a few games here and here, that Clippers game especially, it's petty to point at outliers. We can do that for anyone in the NBA.
Except I essentially pointed out his entire 2016-17 postseason, too. Are we going to just ignore that? In fact, take away the 2015-16 postseason, and he was pretty pedestrian in every single postseason of his career. His career postseason advanced metrics are mediocre at best.


Sure, he isn't a complete player. How many are? He's an elite shooter, will probably go down as one of the greatest ever along with Curry, an elite two way player with elite defense, but there are holes in his game.

For me, it goes beyond Klay being an "incomplete player." Harden is an incomplete player because he's a poor individual perimeter defender against quicker guards. Giannis is an incomplete player because he can't shoot a consistent perimeter jumper to save his life.

To me, Klay is a specialist. Now, he's an excellent specialist, and he might be the greatest 3 and D player in the history of the NBA, but that's kind of who he is. He has two skills. One of them (shooting) is probably something that he's a top 5 player at in the history of the league. The other (perimeter defense), he's very good at, but nobody would call him elite. And that pretty much ends his list of above average skills.


The good news is that every season he's improved and I don't think he's peaked. His ball handling has improved over the seasons and continues to do so. He drives to the basket and gets to the line slightly more often. The fact that there's progress means there is growth and a focus to improve.
Has he improved in those areas? Because the numbers say otherwise. His 11.6 percent AST% is higher than the last two seasons, but still lower than 2014-15 (clearly his best NBA season). And those 12.2 percent of his shot attempts within three feet is actually the lowest number of his entire career, so he's clearly not driving to the lane more.

Here's the truth: He is getting better. At shooting. Which is his one elite skill. His 52 percent shooting from mid-range and 45 percent shooting from the 3-point line are both high marks of his career. But what other numbers or attributes point toward actual improvement? Seriously, point to one quantifiable skill he's significantly better at today than he was three years ago.

Because the truth is that he keeps getting better at shooting, but he's plateaued at pretty much everything else, and that's just who he is.


But acknowledging he has flaws and isn't s compete player, I still consider him superior to Butler. Like I told flashbolt, if the differences in defense is negligible (and to me it is) and one shooter is notable better than the other, give me the better shooter every time.

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You can consider him better than Butler all you want. That doesn't make it true. Pretty much every single advanced statistical measurement disagrees with that, and by a pretty huge margin. Now Klay is certainly a better shooter and he plays for a better team. I'll concede both of those points. But Jimmy is better at literally everything else.

FlashBolt
01-12-2018, 01:28 AM
If Klay wasn't the second option between DLee going down and Durant getting acquired, then who was?

:confused:

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That was a baby Klay. I'm talking about now. He ain't the 2nd option or even 3rd these days. I think Draymond touches the ball more.

FlashBolt
01-12-2018, 01:31 AM
Please don't nitpick a few games here and here, that Clippers game especially, it's petty to point at outliers. We can do that for anyone in the NBA.

Yea he had a sub par finals, won't deny it. Wasn't happy about it.

Sure, he isn't a complete player. How many are? He's an elite shooter, will probably go down as one of the greatest ever along with Curry, an elite two way player with elite defense, but there are holes in his game. The good news is that every season he's improved and I don't think he's peaked. His ball handling has improved over the seasons and continues to do so. He drives to the basket and gets to the line slightly more often. The fact that there's progress means there is growth and a focus to improve.

But acknowledging he has flaws and isn't s compete player, I still consider him superior to Butler. Like I told flashbolt, if the differences in defense is negligible (and to me it is) and one shooter is notable better than the other, give me the better shooter every time.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Lol.

1) Defense isn't negligible. How many ALL NBA DEFENSIVE TEAMS has Klay made? Klay can be easily overpowered and outmaneuvered because he's slow on his feet at times. There is no debate on defense: Jimmy B is prime A material and Klay is 2nd grade. Klay has good defense but so far, we've only seen him do so on a great defensive team that without him, would still rank top five in the league.

2) Right. Cause Butler isn't a better playmaker, rebounder, and overall player than Klay. Klay is the better shooter, got it. By your logic, you should put Klay over Harden as well. He's the better defender/shooter.

IKnowHoops
01-12-2018, 01:34 AM
I'd have him in the top 10-15 range. Really could go anywhere but I still think Paul George is the better player so I can't realistically put him above PG in any case. I'm more concerned about Minny's playoff struggles than anything so top four in West doesn't mean much at all. Like in the playoffs, I'd trust OKC more than Minny.

I used to think PG was better. I think they are even, but I think a Jimmy is mentally tougher. And I do think PG is mentally tough.

belikemike23
01-12-2018, 05:05 AM
He's top 12 in my book.

Stunner
01-12-2018, 04:10 PM
https://twitter.com/bulls_jay/status/951907021451857922

WaDe03
01-12-2018, 04:17 PM
https://twitter.com/bulls_jay/status/951907021451857922

Finished top 3 I believe last year too.

mrblisterdundee
01-12-2018, 07:14 PM
I'd have him in the top 10-15 range. Really could go anywhere but I still think Paul George is the better player so I can't realistically put him above PG in any case. I'm more concerned about Minny's playoff struggles than anything so top four in West doesn't mean much at all. Like in the playoffs, I'd trust OKC more than Minny.

I think Butler might by tenth — LeBron, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Giannis, Westbrook, Cousins, Davis, Butler, Towns and George.
A hard part about judging Butler is all the ill-fitting rosters assembled around him. He's an OK but not great shooter who's elite in the post. He should be surrounded by shooters opening up the lane for him to operate.
Towns can be a good fit, considering he shoots better than Butler while providing the same defensive upside. But Minnesota needs more shooters to surround those guys. I'd also like to see Butler run the point more.

WaDe03
01-12-2018, 07:25 PM
I'm surprised we don't hear more about him considering how everyone's all about advanced stats now

lol, please
01-12-2018, 07:58 PM
That was a baby Klay. I'm talking about now. He ain't the 2nd option or even 3rd these days. I think Draymond touches the ball more.

he's the 2nd/3rd option even when Curry and Durant are on the floor, if you watched the games it's pretty obvious who they look for open looks the most.

Draymond touches the ball more, but that doesn't make him the 3rd scoring option by any means.

WaDe03
01-12-2018, 08:12 PM
he's the 2nd/3rd option even when Curry and Durant are on the floor, if you watched the games it's pretty obvious who they look for open looks the most.

Draymond touches the ball more, but that doesn't make him the 3rd scoring option by any means.

If that's how you really feel post a "where do you rank Klay Thompson" thread

Giannis94
01-12-2018, 09:03 PM
To answer the question. He is well behind Giannis

WaDe03
01-12-2018, 09:06 PM
To answer the question. He is well behind Giannis

I'm leaning towards Jimmy. He impacts winning a lot more.

Giannis94
01-12-2018, 09:10 PM
I'm leaning towards Jimmy. He impacts winning a lot more.
**** off my posts. Starting to remind me of a certain fan bases fans.

WaDe03
01-12-2018, 09:16 PM
**** off my posts. Starting to remind me of a certain fan bases fans.

Pull up then!