PDA

View Full Version : Is Iggy HOF bound? Who makes the cut this year?



Chronz
01-03-2018, 12:24 PM
Regarding Andre, hes the ultimate sacrifice for the team guy, an All-Star/F.MVP, will probably add a few more ringz to his count playing for a historic team.


That aside, here are some notable first ballot candidates;

Jason Kidd, Nash, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Billups and RIP

Waiting to be added are Webber, Ben Wallace, Tim Hardaway and Sidney Moncrief

Heres a list of all the eligible candidates:

http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 12:35 PM
I love Iggy, but I don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame. He was a one-time All-Star who was a 19/5/5 guy at his peak (which only lasted about three years), and all of his postseason prowess came as a role player on one of the most stacked teams in NBA history. If Iggy gets in, then there's a lot of role players on great teams over the years who have a case, and frankly their cases are probably stronger. The Finals MVP is nice, but that alone shouldn't get him in. It didn't get Cedric Maxwell in, and you could make a strong case that Maxwell was the better player at his peak.

ewing
01-03-2018, 12:38 PM
No and he isnít close to worthy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 12:44 PM
As for guys with a chance to get there this season, Kidd, Nash and Allen should all be first-ballot locks as all are top 50 all-time caliber guys. Hill could make it his first year based more on his college career, but if we were judging his career solely based on his NBA career, he would be a coin flip guy for me.

The 2000s Pistons teams are so hard to judge. I was talking with a friend about it recently, and I think the only two guys I'd definitely put in would be Billups and Wallace. Sheed is a borderline guy for me, but gun to my head, I just don't think I would personally vote him in. And Rip is a "no" for me. The guy was a great scorer and a 3-time All-Star, but I don't think a 20/3/3 guy at his peak deserves to be in the HOF.

Webber definitely should get in, and it's shocking to me that Moncrief isn't in already. Hardaway is probably borderline, but I think he should get in. His advanced numbers don't blow you away, but the guy was a 5-time All-NBA player and was one of the 2-3 best point guards of the 90s.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 12:49 PM
He should get in. Prob not before anyone mentioned in the op, but still, at some point..

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 12:51 PM
He should get in. Prob not before anyone mentioned in the op, but still, at some point..

Find me a comparable player who is in the Hall of Fame today.

prodigy
01-03-2018, 12:52 PM
I love Iggy, but I don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame. He was a one-time All-Star who was a 19/5/5 guy at his peak (which only lasted about three years), and all of his postseason prowess came as a role player on one of the most stacked teams in NBA history. If Iggy gets in, then there's a lot of role players on great teams over the years who have a case, and frankly their cases are probably stronger. The Finals MVP is nice, but that alone shouldn't get him in. It didn't get Cedric Maxwell in, and you could make a strong case that Maxwell was the better player at his peak.

That finals MVP was kinda dumb too, I mean Lebron avg like 30-11-8 52% lol and iggy got it for his defense on Lebron who was playing without Love or Irving.

I respect Iggy but def not a HOF'er

nastynice
01-03-2018, 12:58 PM
Find me a comparable player who is in the Hall of Fame today.

Sabonis,mutombo, Ming lol

WaDe03
01-03-2018, 01:19 PM
Sabonis,mutombo, Ming lol

Stop it lmao!!

Heediot
01-03-2018, 01:24 PM
Tim Hardaway was a beast early on before those knee injuries. After that he was a nice player but was a fringe all star at best after that.

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 01:29 PM
Sabonis,mutombo, Ming lol

Those are not remotely comparable. Sabonis and Yao are in primarily because of their international dominance/contributions, but Yao was also an elite NBA player for a good chunk of time and a 5-time All-NBA guy in his career. And Mutombo was a 4-time Defensive Player of the Year, a 10-time All-Star and a 3-time All-NBA guy.

I'll say it again: Find a comparable player to Iggy who is in the Hall of Fame today.

Giannis94
01-03-2018, 01:33 PM
Slightly above average player that is close to an extinct player because he plays defense and doesn't score a ton.

Alayla
01-03-2018, 01:45 PM
Not a chance

tredigs
01-03-2018, 02:18 PM
Regarding Andre, hes the ultimate sacrifice for the team guy, an All-Star/F.MVP, will probably add a few more ringz to his count playing for a historic team.


That aside, here are some notable first ballot candidates;

Jason Kidd, Nash, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Billups and RIP

Waiting to be added are Webber, Ben Wallace, Tim Hardaway and Sidney Moncrief

Heres a list of all the eligible candidates:

http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/
Of the top list obviously J Kidd, Nash and Ray Allen are in. G Hill will get in, but maybe not 1st ballot. Ditto Chauncey. Rip? Rip's definitely never making the hall of fame, not sure why you have him with those guys. The other 4 below are all borderline, and I'd be good with them in or out honestly. And while his impact is probably understated and has been HOF level at times (his D can be that good), Iguodala's not a Hall Of Famer no.

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 02:23 PM
Of the top list obviously J Kidd, Nash and Ray Allen are in. G Hill will get in, but maybe not 1st ballot. Ditto Chauncey. Rip? Rip's definitely never making the hall of fame, not sure why you have him with those guys. The other 4 below are all borderline, and I'd be good with them in or out honestly. And while his impact is probably understated and has been HOF level at times (his D can be that good), Iguodala's not a Hall Of Famer no.
Webber should get in. The dude almost averaged a 20/10 for his entire career average. He was a 5-time All-NBA guy and finished top 10 in MVP voting five times. His advanced numbers aren't great, but his three-year peak in Sacramento was damn solid. His postseason resume isn't incredible or anything, but he was the best player on some damn good Kings teams in the 2000s that had some good playoff runs.

Edit: Wallace is borderline, but he was the best defensive player in the league for the better part of a decade and certainly anchored the league's best defense on a perennial contender over that time. Mutombo and Rodman are both in, and I consider Wallace a similar class of player if maybe just slightly below those guys.

Scoots
01-03-2018, 02:30 PM
That finals MVP was kinda dumb too, I mean Lebron avg like 30-11-8 52% lol and iggy got it for his defense on Lebron who was playing without Love or Irving.

I respect Iggy but def not a HOF'er

No, Iguodala is not a HOF player.

But no, LeBron didn't shoot 52% in 2015 he shot 39.8%

nastynice
01-03-2018, 03:10 PM
Those are not remotely comparable. Sabonis and Yao are in primarily because of their international dominance/contributions, but Yao was also an elite NBA player for a good chunk of time and a 5-time All-NBA guy in his career. And Mutombo was a 4-time Defensive Player of the Year, a 10-time All-Star and a 3-time All-NBA guy.

I'll say it again: Find a comparable player to Iggy who is in the Hall of Fame today.

I just gave you 3

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 03:18 PM
I just gave you 3

:facepalm: Repeating yourself is not an argument. If you honestly believe those three are comparable in any way, let's hear your argument for it. And if you can't make an argument for them, then clearly they're not good comparisons.

Sabonis isn't even worth discussing, because his NBA career is not the reason he's in the Hall to begin with. And Yao and Mutombo not only played completely different positions from Iggy, but were far superior players at their peaks to the point where it's laughable you would even bring them up.

Chronz
01-03-2018, 03:22 PM
How about Stephon Marbury

nastynice
01-03-2018, 03:23 PM
:facepalm: Repeating yourself is not an argument. If you honestly believe those three are comparable in any way, let's hear your argument for it. And if you can't make an argument for them, then clearly they're not good comparisons.

Sabonis isn't even worth discussing, because his NBA career is not the reason he's in the Hall to begin with. And Yao and Mutombo not only played completely different positions from Iggy, but were far superior players at their peaks to the point where it's laughable you would even bring them up.

They were solid players that could play a key role in a bigger scheme. None of them ever legitimately dominated the game. They may have dominated a certain aspect, but so did Iggy, best wing defender in the league for what, 4-5 years

Very comparable

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 03:31 PM
They were solid players that could play a key role in a bigger scheme. None of them ever legitimately dominated the game. They may have dominated a certain aspect, but so did Iggy, best wing defender in the league for what, 4-5 years

Very comparable

:pity: Jesus Christ. How long did it take you to come up with that broad, uneducated excuse for an argument? 10 seconds? 20? Don't strain your brain too much, dude. It might require you to actually open up another tab or two in your browser and come up with a legitimate original thought.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 03:34 PM
:pity: Jesus Christ. How long did it take you to come up with that broad, uneducated excuse for an argument? 10 seconds? 20? Don't strain your brain too much, dude. It might require you to actually open up another tab or two in your browser and come up with a legitimate original thought.

lmaooo!! savage!

YAALREADYKNO
01-03-2018, 03:42 PM
Kidd, Nash, and Allen are 1st ballot. Billups, Wallace, and Webber will/should eventually get in.

WaDe03
01-03-2018, 04:20 PM
They were solid players that could play a key role in a bigger scheme. None of them ever legitimately dominated the game. They may have dominated a certain aspect, but so did Iggy, best wing defender in the league for what, 4-5 years

Very comparable

What?!

kdspurman
01-03-2018, 04:31 PM
They were solid players that could play a key role in a bigger scheme. None of them ever legitimately dominated the game. They may have dominated a certain aspect, but so did Iggy, best wing defender in the league for what, 4-5 years

Very comparable

Which years?

Raps18-19 Champ
01-03-2018, 04:34 PM
Iggy will make it even though he doesn't deserve. A bum like Calvin Murphy and Bill Bradley are in there.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 04:42 PM
Which years?

toward end of denver, also beginning of gs

are you guys kidding me...?

lol, please
01-03-2018, 04:51 PM
Regarding Andre, hes the ultimate sacrifice for the team guy, an All-Star/F.MVP, will probably add a few more ringz to his count playing for a historic team.


That aside, here are some notable first ballot candidates;

Jason Kidd, Nash, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Billups and RIP

Waiting to be added are Webber, Ben Wallace, Tim Hardaway and Sidney Moncrief

Heres a list of all the eligible candidates:

http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/Without question Iggy gets in. A lock.



Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

lol, please
01-03-2018, 04:57 PM
toward end of denver, also beginning of gs

are you guys kidding me...?I lol'd too.

The reason Iggy coming to the Warriors was a big deal in the first place was because he was an elite defender in the league.

[emoji23]

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

ewing
01-03-2018, 05:13 PM
I mean, are the raptors going to win the NBA championship this year?

Htownballa1622
01-03-2018, 05:18 PM
I don't want to live in a world where Iguodala is a hof.

"It's gon be a no for me dawg."

Htownballa1622
01-03-2018, 05:20 PM
I lol'd too.

The reason Iggy coming to the Warriors was a big deal in the first place was because he was an undercover snitch plotting to play with the team that just beat him in playoffs[emoji23]

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

fify.

He and Durant are more alike than we realize. *meow*

lol, please
01-03-2018, 05:22 PM
I mean, are the raptors going to win the NBA championship this year?We simply don't know.

Your probably say well, the chances of anyone getting past LeBron are slim, but I don't share this respect for him like you do. Yes, the Celtics and Raptors fell short the last few seasons but not because of some invincibility of Lebrons, they just haven't pit together the wins when needed.

The best teams don't always win, and the winner isn't always the best team. I know you'd like to buy into this myth that the finals are decided before they are played, but that's not the case my dude.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

kdspurman
01-03-2018, 06:13 PM
toward end of denver, also beginning of gs

are you guys kidding me...?

Well, i know he was very good. I just don't think he was the best for any 4-5 year stretch but to each their own. (Tony Allen, Kawhi, Lebron was playing at a high level briefly,etc... )

I wasn't kidding you when I asked tho. But I don't think you can look at Iggy's stats/accomplishments and say he's a HOF player. Basketball reference has him as a 2.8% to get in fwiw.

Heediot
01-03-2018, 06:17 PM
Mitch Richmond is a HOF but I'd take Iggy on my tea over him. I don't know how that effects the conversation. Mitch struggled to get to the playoffs as the man, even with his scoring prowess.

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 06:19 PM
Without question Iggy gets in. A lock.



Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

BR gives him a 2.8 percent chance to make the Hall of Fame. That's probably a little low, but suffice it to say, I'd put his odds at less than 20 percent. Role players don't make the Hall of Fame unless they have some ridiculous international or collegiate careers, of which Iggy has neither. I'm sorry, but you're delusional if you think he's "a lock" to make it.

TrueFan420
01-03-2018, 06:20 PM
I'd wager no but he also has two gold medals which does play a part. How was his college career?

Heediot
01-03-2018, 06:26 PM
Does Derozan make it to the HOF on his trajectory? How does that compare to a guy like Iggy? Just curious. I'd take a guy like Iggy before Derozan (if both are the same age), does that count, or do numbers and accolades also have to be considered?

lol, please
01-03-2018, 06:41 PM
Well, i know he was very good. I just don't think he was the best for any 4-5 year stretch but to each their own. (Tony Allen, Kawhi, Lebron was playing at a high level briefly,etc... )

I wasn't kidding you when I asked tho. But I don't think you can look at Iggy's stats/accomplishments and say he's a HOF player. Basketball reference has him as a 2.8% to get in fwiw.

He didn't say he was #1 for a span of 3-4 years, just that he was one of - elite. Based off this post it seems like you agree. That makes 3 of us. Progress.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 06:50 PM
Well, i know he was very good. I just don't think he was the best for any 4-5 year stretch but to each their own. (Tony Allen, Kawhi, Lebron was playing at a high level briefly,etc... )

I wasn't kidding you when I asked tho. But I don't think you can look at Iggy's stats/accomplishments and say he's a HOF player. Basketball reference has him as a 2.8% to get in fwiw.

I can't argue if he was #1 or not, but he was in the convo. At that time if someone said he was the best they'd get basically zero blow back. Consensus tier 1 guy, fair?

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 06:56 PM
He didn't say he was #1 for a span of 3-4 years, just that he was one of - elite. Based off this post it seems like you agree. That makes 3 of us. Progress.

But even if we all agreed that Iggy was the best perimeter defender of the last 8-10 years (which he's probably not), that alone wouldn't be remotely enough to make the Hall of Fame. Look at Michael Cooper and Bruce Bowen. Both guys were the best perimeter defenders of their respective eras and experienced more team success than Iggy, but neither guy has come close to sniffing the Hall of Fame.

Now Iggy is/was a better overall player than those guys. But he wasn't remotely good enough as a two-way guy in Philly to justify Hall of Fame consideration, and while his role-playing days in Golden State have been great, the two best perimeter defending role players of the past 30 years weren't Hall of Fame worthy. Neither case is strong enough, which is why he has pretty much no chance of making the HOF.

ewing
01-03-2018, 07:05 PM
But even if we all agreed that Iggy was the best perimeter defender of the last 8-10 years (which he's probably not), that alone wouldn't be remotely enough to make the Hall of Fame. Look at Michael Cooper and Bruce Bowen. Both guys were the best perimeter defenders of their respective eras and experienced more team success than Iggy, but neither guy has come close to sniffing the Hall of Fame.

Now Iggy is/was a better overall player than those guys.*But he wasn't remotely good enough as a two-way guy in Philly to justify Hall of Fame consideration, and while his role-playing days in Golden State have been great, the two best perimeter defending role players of the past 30 years weren't Hall of Fame worthy. Neither case is strong enough, which is why he has pretty much no chance of making the HOF.

Add Shane Battier to that list.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 07:05 PM
But even if we all agreed that Iggy was the best perimeter defender of the last 8-10 years (which he's probably not), that alone wouldn't be remotely enough to make the Hall of Fame. Look at Michael Cooper and Bruce Bowen. Both guys were the best perimeter defenders of their respective eras and experienced more team success than Iggy, but neither guy has come close to sniffing the Hall of Fame.

Now Iggy is/was a better overall player than those guys.*But he wasn't remotely good enough as a two-way guy in Philly to justify Hall of Fame consideration, and while his role-playing days in Golden State have been great, the two best perimeter defending role players of the past 30 years weren't Hall of Fame worthy. Neither case is strong enough, which is why he has pretty much no chance of making the HOF.

I was kinda saying it comparing him to mutombo and yao

lol, please
01-03-2018, 07:05 PM
But even if we all agreed that Iggy was the best perimeter defender of the last 8-10 years (which he's probably not), that alone wouldn't be remotely enough to make the Hall of Fame. Look at Michael Cooper and Bruce Bowen. Both guys were the best perimeter defenders of their respective eras and experienced more team success than Iggy, but neither guy has come close to sniffing the Hall of Fame.

Now Iggy is/was a better overall player than those guys.*But he wasn't remotely good enough as a two-way guy in Philly to justify Hall of Fame consideration, and while his role-playing days in Golden State have been great, the two best perimeter defending role players of the past 30 years weren't Hall of Fame worthy. Neither case is strong enough, which is why he has pretty much no chance of making the HOF.

Right but I was only arguing that he was an elite defender at the time (still think he is tbh).

Since when is being a great two-way player/perimeter defender a knock on someone? Klay is an elite two-way perimeter defender, bet he makes the HOF.

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 07:14 PM
Right but I was only arguing that he was an elite defender at the time (still think he is tbh).

Since when is being a great two-way player/perimeter defender a knock on someone? Klay is an elite two-way perimeter defender, bet he makes the HOF.

Except Iggy really wasn't an elite two-way player at any point in his career. He was a really good offensive player and solid perimeter defender in Philly. And he's an elite perimeter defender and below average offensive player in Golden State. If he was consistently an 18-20+ PPG game guy while being an elite perimeter defender (like Klay) his whole career, then this is a different conversation. Klay is likely a Hall of Famer some day. Iggy is not.

mightybosstone
01-03-2018, 07:14 PM
I was kinda saying it comparing him to mutombo and yao

You should really drop that argument, chief. Yao and Mutombo >>>>> Iggy. And you're not likely to find any non-Warriors fans on PSD to admit otherwise.

kdspurman
01-03-2018, 07:37 PM
He didn't say he was #1 for a span of 3-4 years, just that he was one of - elite. Based off this post it seems like you agree. That makes 3 of us. Progress.

"best wing defenders for 4-5 years" was the exact quote I believe. Seems like he was saying he was the best (aka #1) during that stretch .

He was very good yes, but not a HOF level guy. I think I've only seen 2 people (you included) thinking he is

Chronz
01-03-2018, 08:14 PM
Add Shane Battier to that list.good mention. I feel like people forget how active young battier was. Iggy was elite defensively for Philly , people down play that

lol, please
01-03-2018, 08:18 PM
"best wing defenders for 4-5 years" was the exact quote I believe. Seems like he was saying he was the best (aka #1) during that stretch .

He was very good yes, but not a HOF level guy. I think I've only seen 2 people (you included) thinking he isUh no..."best wing defenders". Defenders, plural, implies a group. Thus, best of. Lol.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

kdspurman
01-03-2018, 08:20 PM
Uh no..."best wing defenders". Defenders, plural, implies a group. Thus, best of. Lol.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

I made a typo. He didn't pluralize.... So..... Again, what would best wing defender imply?

:eyebrow:

lol, please
01-03-2018, 08:57 PM
I made a typo. He didn't pluralize.... So..... Again, what would best wing defender imply?

:eyebrow:Eh, well then my bad. I figured you were quoting verbatim, and I didn't have time to check his post.

Do we agree Iggy was an elite defender when we acquired him yes or no?

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

basch152
01-03-2018, 09:04 PM
Regarding Andre, hes the ultimate sacrifice for the team guy, an All-Star/F.MVP, will probably add a few more ringz to his count playing for a historic team.


That aside, here are some notable first ballot candidates;

Jason Kidd, Nash, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Billups and RIP

Waiting to be added are Webber, Ben Wallace, Tim Hardaway and Sidney Moncrief

Heres a list of all the eligible candidates:

http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/

ray Allen, grant hill, Chauncey, and Webber are most deserving there.

in that orderish.

tredigs
01-03-2018, 09:05 PM
Webber should get in. The dude almost averaged a 20/10 for his entire career average. He was a 5-time All-NBA guy and finished top 10 in MVP voting five times. His advanced numbers aren't great, but his three-year peak in Sacramento was damn solid. His postseason resume isn't incredible or anything, but he was the best player on some damn good Kings teams in the 2000s that had some good playoff runs.

Edit: Wallace is borderline, but he was the best defensive player in the league for the better part of a decade and certainly anchored the league's best defense on a perennial contender over that time. Mutombo and Rodman are both in, and I consider Wallace a similar class of player if maybe just slightly below those guys.

I'd probably agree with that and If given the chance would likely vote yes for them both. I actually have always been of the opinion that Ben was their most important title piece. Ultimate guy who is not the best team "floor raiser", but is a massive ceiling raiser with the right teammates.

tredigs
01-03-2018, 09:09 PM
ray Allen, grant hill, Chauncey, and Webber are most deserving there.

in that orderish.

? Nash and J Kidd are definitely the mortal locks of the list, followed by Ray.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 10:06 PM
I made a typo. He didn't pluralize.... So..... Again, what would best wing defender imply?

:eyebrow:

"arguably" best wing defender. How's that?

Can we all be happy with that?

nastynice
01-03-2018, 10:08 PM
You should really drop that argument, chief. Yao and Mutombo >>>>> Iggy. And you're not likely to find any non-Warriors fans on PSD to admit otherwise.

They're pretty much in the same tier. I doubt you'd find anyone care to argue against someone putting him in the same category as the other two

Except you. But that's just cuz you don't like me, lol

kdspurman
01-04-2018, 12:17 AM
Eh, well then my bad. I figured you were quoting verbatim, and I didn't have time to check his post.

Do we agree Iggy was an elite defender when we acquired him yes or no?

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk


"arguably" best wing defender. How's that?

Can we all be happy with that?

Def an elite defender. But just not a HOF level player

basch152
01-04-2018, 12:54 AM
? Nash and J Kidd are definitely the mortal locks of the list, followed by Ray.

meh.

if I'm starting a team I take hill Webber and Chauncey over both without a second thought.

WaDe03
01-04-2018, 01:03 AM
They're pretty much in the same tier. I doubt you'd find anyone care to argue against someone putting him in the same category as the other two

Except you. But that's just cuz you don't like me, lol

No lol, they're not even close to the same tier.

lol, please
01-04-2018, 01:34 AM
meh.

if I'm starting a team I take hill Webber and Chauncey over both without a second thought.:clap:

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

nastynice
01-04-2018, 01:41 AM
No lol, they're not even close to the same tier.

no, they're in the same tier

:)

BKLYNpigeon
01-04-2018, 01:45 AM
Mitch Richmond is in the HOF.

you can make a case for anyone.

JasonJohnHorn
01-04-2018, 08:24 AM
I would say yes without hesitation. I realize his personal stats don't impress much, but he was an elite defender in Philly (likely deserving a DPOY award were voters not so often inclined to go with big men, especially at that time), he was an All-Star. He helped GSW transition from a playoff contender to a champion, earned a Finals MVP, was deserving of at least two 6th Man awards in my estimation, and has multiple rings. Two is a multiple, right? And he may likely a couple more before he retires.

Some might think this sets the bar low, but few players have his resume, even if many have played at a comprabale level.

bagwell368
01-04-2018, 08:36 AM
How about Stephon Marbury

:puke:

No on Iggy. Moncrief please.

ball4reel
01-04-2018, 09:16 AM
NO on Iggy . He had a good carrier but really made his name on a stacked team as a great defender.

Vinylman
01-04-2018, 09:55 AM
Robert Horry says hello

prodigy
01-04-2018, 10:39 AM
No, Iguodala is not a HOF player.

But no, LeBron didn't shoot 52% in 2015 he shot 39.8%

my bad i looked at 15-16 FG % by mistake.

My point still stands. Lebron was guarded by 3 different fresh guys constantly and the 2nd best player on the team was Delly lol. A weak MVP award.

Good player but was never great. Respect his grit and fight but not close to a HOF'er.

ewing
01-04-2018, 10:40 AM
my bad i looked at 15-16 FG % by mistake.

My point still stands. Lebron was guarded by 3 different fresh guys constantly and the 2nd best player on the team was Delly lol. A weak MVP award.

Good player but was never great. Respect his grit and fight but not close to a HOF'er.

LBron lost. Anyway, Derrek McKey for the HOF!

Scoots
01-04-2018, 11:21 AM
Robert Horry says hello

Best answer

ewing
01-04-2018, 11:24 AM
Best answer

Horry was a career under achiever. He is no where near Hall worthy, At least Iggy wasn't a coaster that chased rings and happened to hit some big shots. Rasheed Wallace was better then either guy on both ends. Is he a HOFer?

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 11:29 AM
They're pretty much in the same tier. I doubt you'd find anyone care to argue against someone putting him in the same category as the other two

Except you. But that's just cuz you don't like me, lol


no, they're in the same tier

:)

It's completely insane to me that you think this. I get that you're a Warriors fan, but you're either not remotely trying to show objectivity in regards to other teams' athletes or are just completely ignorant about the impact those guys had on the game.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I can usually understand when somebody takes an opposing viewpoint, but this is one of those opinions that borders are being a factual inaccuracy for me that I see no legitimate argument for whatsoever.

ewing
01-04-2018, 11:44 AM
Is Thunder Dan a HOFer? Top level defender, better offensive player the Iggy

ewing
01-04-2018, 11:46 AM
Mookie Ballock has to be a lock. What do you guys think about Doug Christie? I think him an Iggy are on par.

Heediot
01-04-2018, 12:26 PM
Iggy just doesn't have the numbers and stats for the hall of fame. He's not a goat level defender/ and or rebounder like Rodman or Russell to justify his stats. Them boys got mad chips too.

However, I'd take him over some stars in their primes and some low end hall of famers on my team. He's a swiss army knife, better as a complementary piece like Dray.

Heediot
01-04-2018, 12:29 PM
Mookie Ballock has to be a lock. What do you guys think about Doug Christie? I think him an Iggy are on par.

I think he better then both. Those guys were crazy defenders though. I think Iggy in his prime is a bigger threat on offense. Sheed is better than Iggy, but Iggy is the wing version of Sheed. A complementary guy that can defend and chip in some offense. Big man defenders are just more valuable.

lol, please
01-04-2018, 12:33 PM
I would say yes without hesitation. I realize his personal stats don't impress much, but he was an elite defender in Philly (likely deserving a DPOY award were voters not so often inclined to go with big men, especially at that time), he was an All-Star. He helped GSW transition from a playoff contender to a champion, earned a Finals MVP, was deserving of at least two 6th Man awards in my estimation, and has multiple rings. Two is a multiple, right? And he may likely a couple more before he retires.

Some might think this sets the bar low, but few players have his resume, even if many have played at a comprabale level.Well said.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

ewing
01-04-2018, 12:33 PM
I think he better then both. Those guys were crazy defenders though. I think Iggy in his prime is a bigger threat on offense. Sheed is better than Iggy, but Iggy is the wing version of Sheed. A complementary guy that can defend and chip in some offense. Big man defenders are just more valuable.

You think iggy was a better offensive player then Blaylock? I donít think so. Heís Doug Christie imo maybe a little better but same mold


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 12:41 PM
I would say yes without hesitation. I realize his personal stats don't impress much, but he was an elite defender in Philly (likely deserving a DPOY award were voters not so often inclined to go with big men, especially at that time), he was an All-Star. He helped GSW transition from a playoff contender to a champion, earned a Finals MVP, was deserving of at least two 6th Man awards in my estimation, and has multiple rings. Two is a multiple, right? And he may likely a couple more before he retires.

Some might think this sets the bar low, but few players have his resume, even if many have played at a comprabale level.

His "resume" isn't Hall of Fame worthy, period. His peak years in Philly weren't impressive enough to warrant inclusion. Even if he was the best perimeter defender of the past decade (which he probably wasn't), there are other, better perimeter defenders who haven't come close. His college career was negligible, and he has the one gold medal from 2012, but a lot of guys earned Olympic medals that didn't/won't make the Hall of Fame. He won some titles in Golden State as an excellent role player and even won a Finals MVP, but neither team success nor Finals MVPs are locks to get you in.

Bottom line, there's nothing about Iggy's resume that warrants him getting into the Hall of Fame based on the standards the Hall has and guys who have and have not made it in. You can't find me a single example of a player with a comparable resume who is in the Hall of Fame today, because guys like Iggy don't get in.

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 12:47 PM
It's been a few years since I've read Bill Simmons' "Book of Basketball," but he suggested there be a lot of changes to the Hall of Fame. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he suggest there being a section for great role players who came up big in big moments, like Robert Horry? If so, Iggy would absolutely deserve consideration in that section, and I'd totally be on board for it. I'd love to see guys like Horry, Iggy, Cooper, Bowen, Battier, etc. be honored for their contributions to the game.

But in today's Hall of Fame, based on the criteria they've used to let guys in, Andre Iguodala should not get close to sniffing the Hall. If he does, then they need to completely rethink how the selection process works.

Heediot
01-04-2018, 01:15 PM
You think iggy was a better offensive player then Blaylock? I donít think so. Heís Doug Christie imo maybe a little better but same mold


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Iggy has the benefit of playing in an era where the rules help perimeter players, so he has that benefit. Mookie was never the main guy on his team, 3rd option at most of the time. Yeah I think he's slightly better or even at worse.

Doug Christie is a role player. Offensively he wasn't much. I've followed him as a guy from Toronto during the expansion years. He's a 4th option at best. His 3 point shot was respectable and he was more of a 3-d guy.

Those two guys never had to carry the load as much as Iggy, and Iggy was one of the guys defenses keyed on when he was in Philly. Iggy isn't the same level of play maker as a classic PG like Mookie but he has Christie in that department.

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 01:47 PM
Iggy has the benefit of playing in an era where the rules help perimeter players, so he has that benefit. Mookie was never the main guy on his team, 3rd option at most of the time. Yeah I think he's slightly better or even at worse.

Doug Christie is a role player. Offensively he wasn't much. I've followed him as a guy from Toronto during the expansion years. He's a 4th option at best. His 3 point shot was respectable and he was more of a 3-d guy.

Those two guys never had to carry the load as much as Iggy, and Iggy was one of the guys defenses keyed on when he was in Philly. Iggy isn't the same level of play maker as a classic PG like Mookie but he has Christie in that department.

But being the best player on a bad team doesn't make you necessarily better offensively. Over Iggy's four-year offensive peak in Philly from 07-10, the most games Philly won was 41. I don't think it's a coincidence that Philly's best season during Iggy's prime was 11-12, when he was third on the team in scoring behind Jrue Holiday and Lou Williams. He was a much better No. 3 option or role player than he ever was a No. 1 or No. 2 guy.

WaDe03
01-04-2018, 01:54 PM
Mitch Richmond is in the HOF.

you can make a case for anyone.

He was way better than Iggy though.

Heediot
01-04-2018, 01:59 PM
But being the best player on a bad team doesn't make you necessarily better offensively. Over Iggy's four-year offensive peak in Philly from 07-10, the most games Philly won was 41. I don't think it's a coincidence that Philly's best season during Iggy's prime was 11-12, when he was third on the team in scoring behind Jrue Holiday and Lou Williams. He was a much better No. 3 option or role player than he ever was a No. 1 or No. 2 guy.

It's more of a comparison to Mookie and Doug. Mookie had a weak jumper which limited him. All three could handle the rock and slash to the basket. Doug was a role player, he had a bigger role on an expansion team, but he never put up the same raw numbers as Iggy. Doug played within himself more, I think Iggy was asked to do more which like you said may not have translated to the w/l column. I think Iggy is a better version of doug. Mookie is a nice player, but I still think Iggy is the more respected offensive threat.

Heediot
01-04-2018, 02:03 PM
He was way better than Iggy though.

He was a much better scorer. But as the main guy he could barely make the playoffs. Although he played in an era where big men were more valuable. I'd take Iggy's swiss army game over Mitch. Not saying Iggy's better, and if Mitch was better (he's not way better). Iggy is a better complementary fit. Neither guys did much as the main guy in terms of w/l-playoffs.

basch152
01-04-2018, 02:06 PM
Horry was a career under achiever. He is no where near Hall worthy, At least Iggy wasn't a coaster that chased rings and happened to hit some big shots. Rasheed Wallace was better then either guy on both ends. Is he a HOFer?

Wallace is borderline.

but yeah he's above iggy and Horry for sure.

Chronz
01-04-2018, 02:07 PM
Mookie Ballock has to be a lock. What do you guys think about Doug Christie? I think him an Iggy are on par.
Finals mvp narrative

ewing
01-04-2018, 02:10 PM
Wallace is borderline.

but yeah he's above iggy and Horry for sure.

None of them should get in. Unless itís the Hall of pretty good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nastynice
01-04-2018, 02:16 PM
Sheed and majerle should def be in the hall before Iggy. Those arenít in?

lol, please
01-04-2018, 02:16 PM
Pretty good? Wtf lol, the hate for Iggy is real.

:confused:

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

nastynice
01-04-2018, 02:19 PM
You think iggy was a better offensive player then Blaylock? I donít think so. Heís Doug Christie imo maybe a little better but same mold


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ah, heís better than Christie. Way more versatile on offense, he can push the ball and drive at a high level

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 02:39 PM
Sheed and majerle should def be in the hall before Iggy. Those arenít in?

Maybe this is why you think Iggy should get into the Hall of Fame. You seem to think that guys who were just pretty good players deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Majerle had a three-year peak of like 17/5/3, was only a 3-time All-Star with two All-Defensive teams and no All-NBA teams. Sheed at least has a ring and was a 19/8/2/2 guy with 4 All-Star appearancesóhis case isn't terrible, but he's probably not getting in.

But the fact that you see both of these guys as locks says a lot about your standards for the Hall of Fame. Both guys are borderline HOFers at best.

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 02:40 PM
Pretty good? Wtf lol, the hate for Iggy is real.

:confused:

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Honest question: When was Andre Iguodala ever a top 20-25 player in the NBA?

bklynny67
01-04-2018, 02:49 PM
:facepalm: Repeating yourself is not an argument. If you honestly believe those three are comparable in any way, let's hear your argument for it. And if you can't make an argument for them, then clearly they're not good comparisons.

Sabonis isn't even worth discussing, because his NBA career is not the reason he's in the Hall to begin with. And Yao and Mutombo not only played completely different positions from Iggy, but were far superior players at their peaks to the point where it's laughable you would even bring them up.

They were solid players that could play a key role in a bigger scheme. None of them ever legitimately dominated the game. They may have dominated a certain aspect, but so did Iggy, best wing defender in the league for what, 4-5 years

Very comparable
It's so not even close to comparable that the only explanation I can think of as to why someone would suggest something so obviously dumb and ignorant, is that you are trolling and just trying to annoy people, and don't actually believe it yourself.

Mission accomplished.

bklynny67
01-04-2018, 03:01 PM
"best wing defenders for 4-5 years" was the exact quote I believe. Seems like he was saying he was the best (aka #1) during that stretch .

He was very good yes, but not a HOF level guy. I think I've only seen 2 people (you included) thinking he isUh no..."best wing defenders". Defenders, plural, implies a group. Thus, best of. Lol.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
He said best wing defender in the league for 4-5 years.

That means he says he was #1. There's no arguing what he meant by literary saying best wing defender in the league, so just stop.

bklynny67
01-04-2018, 03:05 PM
:facepalm: Repeating yourself is not an argument. If you honestly believe those three are comparable in any way, let's hear your argument for it. And if you can't make an argument for them, then clearly they're not good comparisons.

Sabonis isn't even worth discussing, because his NBA career is not the reason he's in the Hall to begin with. And Yao and Mutombo not only played completely different positions from Iggy, but were far superior players at their peaks to the point where it's laughable you would even bring them up.

They were solid players that could play a key role in a bigger scheme. None of them ever legitimately dominated the game. They may have dominated a certain aspect, but so did Iggy, best wing defender in the league for what, 4-5 years

Very comparable

Here's the quote. Who wants to argue now whether he meant #1 wing defender in the NBA?

So again, which 4 years was he the #1 wing defender in the league?

ewing
01-04-2018, 04:49 PM
Finals mvp narrative

honestly he is somewhere b/t Shawn Marion and Raja Bell but not near the HOF.

JasonJohnHorn
01-04-2018, 10:17 PM
Maybe this is why you think Iggy should get into the Hall of Fame. You seem to think that guys who were just pretty good players deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Majerle had a three-year peak of like 17/5/3, was only a 3-time All-Star with two All-Defensive teams and no All-NBA teams. Sheed at least has a ring and was a 19/8/2/2 guy with 4 All-Star appearancesóhis case isn't terrible, but he's probably not getting in.

But the fact that you see both of these guys as locks says a lot about your standards for the Hall of Fame. Both guys are borderline HOFers at best.

I'd have Sheed as a lock. He estbalished himself as a franchise calibre player and smart player in Portland during the 'jailblazer' days, and went on to show his championship calibre play in Detroit. Soldi defensive player, champion, all-around player. Sheed should be a lock in my mind. That said... Detroit would have two titles were he to have covered Robert Horry properly in that second finals appearance.


Dan 'The Tan' Majerle though... not... more All-Star spots than he likely deserved. He was a role player who had some impressive peak seasons when playing on stacked teams (KJ, Barkely, Chambers, Ainge) who helped open things up for him. Great player... but he never seemed like a HOF guy to me.

JasonJohnHorn
01-04-2018, 10:23 PM
He was way better than Iggy though.

I'm for Iggy being in... but yeah... Richmond was a beast. Steller defender, one of the best shooters.... he was likelt the best SG of the 90's not named Jordan. He was a top-ten SG in my opinion, and I've seen few players I would say were better at the SG postition than him since.

Richmond was cursed in being sent to Sac-town, like Gervin was cursed being on a bad team in SAS. But both were historically amazing SG who are too easily forgotten because they were on bad teams for long times, despite playing at an insanely high level.

They would rank up there with the likes of Wade easily were they fortunate enough to be in winning situations (which I don't say as a knock on Wade, but as a compliment to guys like Gervin and Richmond).

mightybosstone
01-04-2018, 10:25 PM
I'm for Iggy being in... but yeah... Richmond was a beast. Steller defender, one of the best shooters.... he was likelt the best SG of the 90's not named Jordan. He was a top-ten SG in my opinion, and I've seen few players I would say were better at the SG postition than him since.

Richmond was cursed in being sent to Sac-town, like Gervin was cursed being on a bad team in SAS. But both were historically amazing SG who are too easily forgotten because they were on bad teams for long times, despite playing at an insanely high level.

They would rank up there with the likes of Wade easily were they fortunate enough to be in winning situations (which I don't say as a knock on Wade, but as a compliment to guys like Gervin and Richmond).
:eyebrow: I agreed with almost everything (Clyde Drexler says hello as the second best SG of the 90s) until you said this. Wade's peak was so, so, so much better than Richmond that this statement is laughable. Gervin at least belongs in the conversation, but Wade was still noticeably better.

JasonJohnHorn
01-04-2018, 10:54 PM
His "resume" isn't Hall of Fame worthy, period. His peak years in Philly weren't impressive enough to warrant inclusion. Even if he was the best perimeter defender of the past decade (which he probably wasn't), there are other, better perimeter defenders who haven't come close. His college career was negligible, and he has the one gold medal from 2012, but a lot of guys earned Olympic medals that didn't/won't make the Hall of Fame. He won some titles in Golden State as an excellent role player and even won a Finals MVP, but neither team success nor Finals MVPs are locks to get you in.

Bottom line, there's nothing about Iggy's resume that warrants him getting into the Hall of Fame based on the standards the Hall has and guys who have and have not made it in. You can't find me a single example of a player with a comparable resume who is in the Hall of Fame today, because guys like Iggy don't get in.

I've been reaidng some of your posts in this thread. Let me start by saying that I certainly respect your opinion. I respect that some guys what a very high bar to get into the HOF, so I see where you are coming from.


For me... there is more than just personal stats, All-Star appearances, and All-NBA teams. Those help, but there are players who either sacrifice so that their team can succeed, or who are stuck on $#!tty teams (like Gervin and Richmond).

Iggy has a little bit of both going on. But let's go over how I see Iggy and his case for a HOF spot:


1. Between 2005-2015, I cannot think of another player who was a better wing defender than Iggy. That's a ten year span. Sure... there were guys who migh have been better in some of those season, but none who were better throughout the entirty of that time frame. That is a decade's worth of elite defensive consistency.

2. In 07, 08', 09, and 10, he performed at an All-Star level, even if he didn't make an All-Star team. He was on a bad team (through no fault of his own), but played at a high level that wasn't recognized because fans and coaches typically don't vote for guys on losing teams. But those campaigns were better than any number of performances that were awards All-Star selections.

3. He helped Philly improve for two straight seasons after LOSING AI. The last season AI played in Philly, they only won 35 games. The two seasons that followed, they won 40 and 41, which speaks to how much impact he had on that eam. They weren't a great team, but despite the loss of a franchise player, they got better. AI had one 40-win season with Philly in his last 4 years: AI had 3 in the 4 seasons that followed AI's departure. So though Iggy didn't score as many points, and wasn't as flashy, he helped that team win when AI couldn't.

4. He's consistently been a solid all-around play. Very few players get over 5 boards and 5 rebounds a game, but for the course of 8 seasons combined, be managed that, as well as over a steal a game (some season the averages may have dipped below the 5/5 mark, but overall, those 8 years combiend, he posted higher than 5/5).

5. He faciliates for his teammates. We've recently heard about how a guy liek Kyrie ignores his coaches request to push the ball faster to help his teammates get better shots because 'he can get his own and it's #23's job to get shots for other guys', but Iggy has always, even when the better player, put helping his teammates first. He's a selfless player/teammate who helps teammates get in a position that maximize their play. This was clearly demonstrated in 2012. With no clear 'franchise' player, and nobody averaging even 15 points a game, the Philly team took a 'teamfirst' approach led by Iggy, who could have demanded more ball time, but help Brand re-establish himself as a compitent player, and helped young guys like Thad Young and Holiday improver, as well as Turner, and helping vets like Lou Williams, helping the team get over .500 despite low expectations. He was an exceptional leader, and was recognized as such with his first and only All-Star spot, despite a low scoring average.

6. His work ethic and leadership set a new tone in GSW, helping them to their first 50-win season in 20 years and setting a defensive tone for the team.

7. His unselfish play helped set the culture in GSW the was reinfroced with Kerr's system. When yougn guys like Curry see a vet like Iggy take a backseat and be unselfish, they see that this is how to play and win. Then they follow that lead. This has set the tone for the Warriors and made it possible for Kerr's system to be accepted by everybody. I don't mean to overstate his impact, because I feel like Curry and Klay and Green could have gotten that done without him, but he helped make it easy and set a model for guys like Greene. He was a starter and gave up his spot without complaint to come off the bench. He is a leader, and leads by example.



When I look at those elements, I am impressed. I see All-Stars and All-NBA players who don't have this kind of positive impact on teams. That counts for a lot to me. More than a few 20/10 season and 5 or 6 All-Star games and 3 or 4 All-NBA selections.

You throw in a couple of All-defensive teams (and he got robbed a lot because of where he was playing), and a finals MPV (and that FMVP weighs in heavily here: heavily), as well as two rings, and considering that he got robbed at least once and likely twice of the 6th man award...

I think the HOF inducitng Iggy would set an excellent example of what it takes to get int the HOF. Commitment to defense. Selflessness. Hard work. Sustained execellence. Sacrifice. Winning. Stepping up when needed. True leadership.

I think if you let Iggy in on that pretense, you aren't lowering the bar, because I can't think of more than 20 guys in the NBA who currently fit that criteria who aren't already locks for the HOF. I mean... who is that going to open the door for that doesn't deserve to get in?

lol, please
01-04-2018, 11:40 PM
I've been reaidng some of your posts in this thread. Let me start by saying that I certainly respect your opinion. I respect that some guys what a very high bar to get into the HOF, so I see where you are coming from.


For me... there is more than just personal stats, All-Star appearances, and All-NBA teams. Those help, but there are players who either sacrifice so that their team can succeed, or who are stuck on $#!tty teams (like Gervin and Richmond).

Iggy has a little bit of both going on. But let's go over how I see Iggy and his case for a HOF spot:


1. Between 2005-2015, I cannot think of another player who was a better wing defender than Iggy. That's a ten year span. Sure... there were guys who migh have been better in some of those season, but none who were better throughout the entirty of that time frame. That is a decade's worth of elite defensive consistency.

2. In 07, 08', 09, and 10, he performed at an All-Star level, even if he didn't make an All-Star team. He was on a bad team (through no fault of his own), but played at a high level that wasn't recognized because fans and coaches typically don't vote for guys on losing teams. But those campaigns were better than any number of performances that were awards All-Star selections.

3. He helped Philly improve for two straight seasons after LOSING AI. The last season AI played in Philly, they only won 35 games. The two seasons that followed, they won 40 and 41, which speaks to how much impact he had on that eam. They weren't a great team, but despite the loss of a franchise player, they got better. AI had one 40-win season with Philly in his last 4 years: AI had 3 in the 4 seasons that followed AI's departure. So though Iggy didn't score as many points, and wasn't as flashy, he helped that team win when AI couldn't.

4. He's consistently been a solid all-around play. Very few players get over 5 boards and 5 rebounds a game, but for the course of 8 seasons combined, be managed that, as well as over a steal a game (some season the averages may have dipped below the 5/5 mark, but overall, those 8 years combiend, he posted higher than 5/5).

5. He faciliates for his teammates. We've recently heard about how a guy liek Kyrie ignores his coaches request to push the ball faster to help his teammates get better shots because 'he can get his own and it's #23's job to get shots for other guys', but Iggy has always, even when the better player, put helping his teammates first. He's a selfless player/teammate who helps teammates get in a position that maximize their play. This was clearly demonstrated in 2012. With no clear 'franchise' player, and nobody averaging even 15 points a game, the Philly team took a 'teamfirst' approach led by Iggy, who could have demanded more ball time, but help Brand re-establish himself as a compitent player, and helped young guys like Thad Young and Holiday improver, as well as Turner, and helping vets like Lou Williams, helping the team get over .500 despite low expectations. He was an exceptional leader, and was recognized as such with his first and only All-Star spot, despite a low scoring average.

6. His work ethic and leadership set a new tone in GSW, helping them to their first 50-win season in 20 years and setting a defensive tone for the team.

7. His unselfish play helped set the culture in GSW the was reinfroced with Kerr's system. When yougn guys like Curry see a vet like Iggy take a backseat and be unselfish, they see that this is how to play and win. Then they follow that lead. This has set the tone for the Warriors and made it possible for Kerr's system to be accepted by everybody. I don't mean to overstate his impact, because I feel like Curry and Klay and Green could have gotten that done without him, but he helped make it easy and set a model for guys like Greene. He was a starter and gave up his spot without complaint to come off the bench. He is a leader, and leads by example.



When I look at those elements, I am impressed. I see All-Stars and All-NBA players who don't have this kind of positive impact on teams. That counts for a lot to me. More than a few 20/10 season and 5 or 6 All-Star games and 3 or 4 All-NBA selections.

You throw in a couple of All-defensive teams (and he got robbed a lot because of where he was playing), and a finals MPV (and that FMVP weighs in heavily here: heavily), as well as two rings, and considering that he got robbed at least once and likely twice of the 6th man award...

I think the HOF inducitng Iggy would set an excellent example of what it takes to get int the HOF. Commitment to defense. Selflessness. Hard work. Sustained execellence. Sacrifice. Winning. Stepping up when needed. True leadership.

I think if you let Iggy in on that pretense, you aren't lowering the bar, because I can't think of more than 20 guys in the NBA who currently fit that criteria who aren't already locks for the HOF. I mean... who is that going to open the door for that doesn't deserve to get in?

Well said. Good post.


:clap:

mightybosstone
01-05-2018, 12:18 AM
I've been reaidng some of your posts in this thread. Let me start by saying that I certainly respect your opinion. I respect that some guys what a very high bar to get into the HOF, so I see where you are coming from.

For me... there is more than just personal stats, All-Star appearances, and All-NBA teams. Those help, but there are players who either sacrifice so that their team can succeed, or who are stuck on $#!tty teams (like Gervin and Richmond).
I keep seeing people suggest that Iggy made some kind of major sacrifice thoughout his career. Where did that narrative come from? In his highest scoring season, he scored like 19.9 points a game on 15.6 attempts. That was the best offensive season he was capable of in his career, and he rarely played on teams in Philly after AI left that had a ton of stellar offensive weapons. This wasn't some offensive juggernaut who was sacrificing for the greater good. He was a phenomenal athlete and defender who averaged 13 points a game his last season in college at Arizona.


1. Between 2005-2015, I cannot think of another player who was a better wing defender than Iggy. That's a ten year span. Sure... there were guys who migh have been better in some of those season, but none who were better throughout the entirty of that time frame. That is a decade's worth of elite defensive consistency.
Tony Allen says "hi." Also, I've already touched on this point. There have been far better perimeter defenders in the league who have had even more team success and didn't sniff the Hall of Fame. Being a great perimeter defender alone is not remotely enough.


2. In 07, 08', 09, and 10, he performed at an All-Star level, even if he didn't make an All-Star team. He was on a bad team (through no fault of his own), but played at a high level that wasn't recognized because fans and coaches typically don't vote for guys on losing teams. But those campaigns were better than any number of performances that were awards All-Star selections.
Really? Since when was 18/5/5 a lock to make the All-Star game? Taking a look at the league today, here are some guys posting similar statlines: Tyreke Evans, Eric Gordon, Aaron Gordon, Harrison Barnes, Donovan Mitchell, Jrue Holiday, Tobias Harris, Eric Bledsoe and TJ Warren. And I'm willing to bet that none of those guys will make the All-Star game this season. There are a dozen guys every season who post stats like that, and rarely do they make the All-Star game.


3. He helped Philly improve for two straight seasons after LOSING AI. The last season AI played in Philly, they only won 35 games. The two seasons that followed, they won 40 and 41, which speaks to how much impact he had on that eam. They weren't a great team, but despite the loss of a franchise player, they got better. AI had one 40-win season with Philly in his last 4 years: AI had 3 in the 4 seasons that followed AI's departure. So though Iggy didn't score as many points, and wasn't as flashy, he helped that team win when AI couldn't.
You're misremembering history here, friend. I looked it up because I was curious. Philly was 5-19 before they dealt Iverson to Denver that year! And part of the reason they turned that season around was the acquisition of Andre Miller, who helped them go 30-28 the rest of the way and helped them get to the playoffs the following season. The trade also netted them the pick which became Thad Young, who was a big part of their improvement the next few years.

Also, helping a team become marginally better after losing an overrated superstar isn't a great argument for someone cracking the Hall of Fame. This happens all the time. The Rockets got better after Dwight Howard left. Does Clint Capela deserve to be in the Hall of Fame now? Or Eric Gordon?


4. He's consistently been a solid all-around play. Very few players get over 5 boards and 5 rebounds a game, but for the course of 8 seasons combined, be managed that, as well as over a steal a game (some season the averages may have dipped below the 5/5 mark, but overall, those 8 years combiend, he posted higher than 5/5).
Lonzo Ball is averaging 5 rebounds and 5 assists per game right now. Those two stats alone do not make a Hall of Fame basketball player. If he was averaging 25/5/5? Absolutely. But not Iggy's numbers. There are much better all-around stats producers in the league over the last few years who won't come close to making the Hall. Lamar Odom is another guy who comes to mind. He consistently averaged around 15/9/5/1/1 over the better part of the decade and helped the Lakers win two titles. Really good player. Not a Hall of Famer.


5. He faciliates for his teammates. We've recently heard about how a guy liek Kyrie ignores his coaches request to push the ball faster to help his teammates get better shots because 'he can get his own and it's #23's job to get shots for other guys', but Iggy has always, even when the better player, put helping his teammates first. He's a selfless player/teammate who helps teammates get in a position that maximize their play. This was clearly demonstrated in 2012. With no clear 'franchise' player, and nobody averaging even 15 points a game, the Philly team took a 'teamfirst' approach led by Iggy, who could have demanded more ball time, but help Brand re-establish himself as a compitent player, and helped young guys like Thad Young and Holiday improver, as well as Turner, and helping vets like Lou Williams, helping the team get over .500 despite low expectations. He was an exceptional leader, and was recognized as such with his first and only All-Star spot, despite a low scoring average.
Other guys facilitate better. He's 184th in all-time career AST% for his career. I could go through and list 100+ guys ahead of him who aren't in the Hall of Fame. Here's a list: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_pct_career.html


6. His work ethic and leadership set a new tone in GSW, helping them to their first 50-win season in 20 years and setting a defensive tone for the team.
Not every "tone setter" deserves to be in the NBA. And the Warriors have a ton of those guys. Green is a pretty good defensive tone setter the last time I checked.


7. His unselfish play helped set the culture in GSW the was reinfroced with Kerr's system. When yougn guys like Curry see a vet like Iggy take a backseat and be unselfish, they see that this is how to play and win. Then they follow that lead. This has set the tone for the Warriors and made it possible for Kerr's system to be accepted by everybody. I don't mean to overstate his impact, because I feel like Curry and Klay and Green could have gotten that done without him, but he helped make it easy and set a model for guys like Greene. He was a starter and gave up his spot without complaint to come off the bench. He is a leader, and leads by example.
Now you're just hypothesizing. You're grasping at straws. If you're telling me that a team with as much talent as Golden State has couldn't have done what they've done without Iguodala, then you're insane. But it sounds like even you don't believe that, so why make the argument.


When I look at those elements, I am impressed. I see All-Stars and All-NBA players who don't have this kind of positive impact on teams. That counts for a lot to me. More than a few 20/10 season and 5 or 6 All-Star games and 3 or 4 All-NBA selections.

You throw in a couple of All-defensive teams (and he got robbed a lot because of where he was playing), and a finals MPV (and that FMVP weighs in heavily here: heavily), as well as two rings, and considering that he got robbed at least once and likely twice of the 6th man award...
Having a positive impact doesn't get you into the Hall of Fame. Some of my favorite players of all-time had positive impacts on their teams. I don't think that warrants those guys getting into the Hall of Fame. And two All-Defensive teams is hardly a huge accomplishment. I'm not going to look through the list of every All-Defensive team in NBA history to count all the guys with multiple appearances on that list who aren't in the Hall of Fame. But I assure you that there's many.


I think the HOF inducitng Iggy would set an excellent example of what it takes to get int the HOF. Commitment to defense. Selflessness. Hard work. Sustained execellence. Sacrifice. Winning. Stepping up when needed. True leadership.
And this is the part where, if I were an NBA player, I would be genuinely insulted. Just to make it in the NBA and stay in the NBA, you have to have most of these traits. Acting as if Iggy deserves to get into the Hall of Fame solely because he works hard and sustains excellence kind of spits in the face of all other professional athletes. You don't think the 12th guy on the Sacramento Kings is busting his *** every day to get better? You don't think the guys in the G League have had to make sacrifices or that they're committed to their craft?


I think if you let Iggy in on that pretense, you aren't lowering the bar, because I can't think of more than 20 guys in the NBA who currently fit that criteria who aren't already locks for the HOF. I mean... who is that going to open the door for that doesn't deserve to get in?
Look man, you're entitled to your opinion. Everyone is. And we all have the list of "guys who would make it into the Hall of Fame if we had a vote." Iggy can be that guy for you. But I'm telling you that, based on the criteria voters have used to judge candidates for decades, Iggy has pretty much no chance of getting in. He's not alone. There are a TON of really good players who won't make the Hall of Fame. And there's guys I've loved in my career who have busted their ***** and played great defense and been a part of winning teams. That doesn't mean they deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

And if they did let Iggy into the Hall of Fame, it would absolutely lower the bar for admission. There are dozens of elite role players over the years who played key roles on great teams and who aren't enshrined in the Hall. You let one in, you better be ready to let them all in.

tredigs
01-05-2018, 12:40 AM
This really doesn't need such a deep dive. Iguodala is an INSANE basketball mind (I've watched him dissect tape and he's as smart a person as there is BBIQ wise), and he's been a premier defensive player for a decade or so, but he's not going to the Hall, and frankly doesn't deserve to. There's an amount of accolades and on court dominance that you need that he simply doesn't have. The Hall is not everything, though. I personally could give a **** about who is in/out of the Hall Of Fame (and I'm sure the modern era guys like Iguodala who have made >100 million in their career don't care so much either).

Vinylman
01-05-2018, 07:56 AM
Horry was a career under achiever. He is no where near Hall worthy, At least Iggy wasn't a coaster that chased rings and happened to hit some big shots. Rasheed Wallace was better then either guy on both ends. Is he a HOFer?

I guess you missed the point... I don't think either should be in ... the point was if you are going to base a lot of it on being a key contributor and not just dominance then there is probably no better candidate than Horry...

on your Rasheed Wallace question... its close but I probably put him in

WaDe03
01-05-2018, 10:38 AM
:eyebrow: I agreed with almost everything (Clyde Drexler says hello as the second best SG of the 90s) until you said this. Wade's peak was so, so, so much better than Richmond that this statement is laughable. Gervin at least belongs in the conversation, but Wade was still noticeably better.

You just saved me from typing out a post lol! This is my exact reply. The fact is, Wade has started to become very underrated.

JasonJohnHorn
01-05-2018, 11:09 AM
:eyebrow: I agreed with almost everything (Clyde Drexler says hello as the second best SG of the 90s) until you said this. Wade's peak was so, so, so much better than Richmond that this statement is laughable. Gervin at least belongs in the conversation, but Wade was still noticeably better.

Drexler's a great player, but he has some of his best seasons in the late 80's and started to tapper off in the mid 90's. Richmond had his entire prime in the 90's. Drexler was better; you'll get no argument from me there. But throughout the duration of the 90's, I would say that Richmond posted better seasons through the decade, though Drexler's season from 90-93 were clearly better. From 94-99 I think it's pretty clearly in favour of Richmond, though 94 and 95 Drexler had a slightly better all around game though averaging less points. Drexler didnt' even play in 99.

Wade's peak was also better. No argument from me there either.


I would say Richmond was a better defender (grossly underated in that department) and a better shooter. He was a 20/4/4 player in his 'average' seasons. Richmond played on a team with few other offensive options and got the brunt end of defences attention, where as Wade had Shaq pulling defenders away, and then LBJ. I've not doubt in my mind that has Richmond gotten to play with Shaq (other than when he was sitting at the end of LAL's bench when he was 36), or LBJ during his prime, then he would have been able to demonstrate even more efficiency.

Wade had the benefit of coming in a little earlier because it was more acceptable for guys to come in after a year or two, so he's got a little more time in that Richmond had. But when you compare their career from 30-35, it's pretty clear that Richmond was playing better at that time in his career, even if Wade was clearly better from 24-29. At 36.... Richmond got relegated to LA's bench, so Wade's doing more at that age than Richmond was granted.

Wade's a better all-around scorer even if not as good a shooter, and is a much better play maker. I'd easily say Wade was better over all and had a higher peak, but if Wade got stuck playing for the Kings during the 90's, and Richmond got to play with Shaq and LBJ, then ten years on, people would remember the winner more favourable.

So yeah... Wade and Drexler are both clearly better, but Richmond is in the conversation among the best guards ever, and all I was saying was that throughout the duration of the 90's, Richmond was likely the second best SG of the decade, and that were he on a winning team instead of getting traded to the Kings, he would be more fondly remember. Instead, like Gervin, he gets easily forgotten. I don't see what is unreasonable about that.

JasonJohnHorn
01-05-2018, 11:19 AM
I keep seeing people suggest that Iggy made some kind of major sacrifice thoughout his career. Where did that narrative come from? In his highest scoring season, he scored like 19.9 points a game on 15.6 attempts. That was the best offensive season he was capable of in his career, and he rarely played on teams in Philly after AI left that had a ton of stellar offensive weapons. This wasn't some offensive juggernaut who was sacrificing for the greater good. He was a phenomenal athlete and defender who averaged 13 points a game his last season in college at Arizona.

He's been in positions where he could demand the ball more and hasn't.

I've pointed out to his team-first mentality, which not all players have. He has made a number of sacrifices for the teams he's played for, whether it be sharing the ball with younger guys to help them develop, or taking a roll on the bench. He's done this over any over. Because he's been doing it his entire career, you think the sacrifice isn't there. It is. And it's a pattern.


Tony Allen says "hi." Also, I've already touched on this point. There have been far better perimeter defenders in the league who have had even more team success and didn't sniff the Hall of Fame. Being a great perimeter defender alone is not remotely enough.

Tony Allen was a great defender, but he was also averaging less than 20 minutes a game until 2010 hit.

And I'm not saying 'Being a great perimeter defender alone' is eough for the HOF. That's a strawman argument, and that shows you are arguing in band faith so I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest. I'v pointed out his strong all-around game, his All-Star, All-Defensive team, his Final MVP, his rings and his abiity to set a tone and culture on the teams he goes to.

And yes, when AI left, he helped Philly win. He set a culture there. Share the ball. If you think Andre Miller taking AI's place is going to turn a team around, that is an arguement I'd be interested in hearing. He helped, yes. But Iggy was the hold over, and he helped set the sharing tone that overcame Iverson 'me want ball all the time' mentalitiy.

But hey... you want to mischaracterize my argument, I've no interest in continuing a conversation with you when you are arguing in bad faith.

mightybosstone
01-05-2018, 12:01 PM
He's been in positions where he could demand the ball more and hasn't.

I've pointed out to his team-first mentality, which not all players have. He has made a number of sacrifices for the teams he's played for, whether it be sharing the ball with younger guys to help them develop, or taking a roll on the bench. He's done this over any over. Because he's been doing it his entire career, you think the sacrifice isn't there. It is. And it's a pattern.

I don't understand your point here at all. If we just assumed that a guy was sacrificing for the greater good, why can't we do that with all NBA players? Based on your logic here, we have hundreds of guys in the league capable of scoring 25 points a night who are just sacrificing for others. I don't buy it.

Iggy at his peak was a so-so No. 2 and a solid No. 3, but he was never capable of being a No. 1 guy. Just because he thrived more as an ancillary piece doesn't mean he was necessarily sacrificing for the great good. That was simply the role he was meant to play.


And I'm not saying 'Being a great perimeter defender alone' is eough for the HOF. That's a strawman argument, and that shows you are arguing in band faith so I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest.
First off, I've never once heard the phrase "band faith," so I have no clue what you mean by that. And I think it's a little pathetic that you're not going to take the time to respond to my response after I actually researched and provide legitimate talking points for each of your arguments, which were essentially broad generalizations that required no research or legitimate thought.

If you don't want to debate me, then don't respond with a novel next time. Or simply don't respond at all.



I'v pointed out his strong all-around game, his All-Star, All-Defensive team, his Final MVP, his rings and his abiity to set a tone and culture on the teams he goes to.
And I refuted all of these points. There are much better players with much better stats and accolades who are not in the Hall of Fame. And simply stating that a guy is a hard worker and improves the culture of a franchise is a completely bogus argument, because intangibles matter very little when it comes to whether a guy makes it to the Hall of Fame or not. There are probably hundreds of role players in the history of the league who could be described as possessing the same intangibles, and none of them are in the Hall of Fame.


And yes, when AI left, he helped Philly win. He set a culture there. Share the ball. If you think Andre Miller taking AI's place is going to turn a team around, that is an arguement I'd be interested in hearing. He helped, yes. But Iggy was the hold over, and he helped set the sharing tone that overcame Iverson 'me want ball all the time' mentalitiy.
They were 5-19 before the AI trade and something like 30-28 after with Miller. They then played .500 basketball the next two seasons with Miller and made the playoffs both years. I'm not saying that Iggy had no part in that, but to act as if Miller's contribution wasn't a major reason for their improved play or the play of young guys like Thad Young and Lou Williams, then you're just completely obtuse. Iggy does not deserve the majority of the credit for that.


But hey... you want to mischaracterize my argument, I've no interest in continuing a conversation with you when you are arguing in bad faith.
Oh. Bad Faith! That makes more sense. For the record, I'm not the one ignoring facts here. You are. You're just throwing out broad arguments with no data or hard evidence to support anything you're saying. I give you actual hard evidence and numbers, and your refuse to even refute those points. It's pretty clear you have no interest in having an actual debate. You'd rather write 1,000 words expressing your own broad, unsubstantiated opinions and then scoff at the notion that you could be wrong.

It's actual ridiculous to me that I've spent this much time and this many words arguing you, because when it comes down to it, this whole argument rests on this question: "Will Iggy make the Hall of Fame?" And the answer is pretty much unequivocally "no." All you have to do is take five minutes to look over the guys in the Hall and recognize why they're in the Hall, and you'd pretty much immediately recognize that Iggy simply is not that caliber of player.

nastynice
01-05-2018, 12:49 PM
He's been in positions where he could demand the ball more and hasn't.

I've pointed out to his team-first mentality, which not all players have. He has made a number of sacrifices for the teams he's played for, whether it be sharing the ball with younger guys to help them develop, or taking a roll on the bench. He's done this over any over. Because he's been doing it his entire career, you think the sacrifice isn't there. It is. And it's a pattern.



Tony Allen was a great defender, but he was also averaging less than 20 minutes a game until 2010 hit.

And I'm not saying 'Being a great perimeter defender alone' is eough for the HOF. That's a strawman argument, and that shows you are arguing in band faith so I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest. I'v pointed out his strong all-around game, his All-Star, All-Defensive team, his Final MVP, his rings and his abiity to set a tone and culture on the teams he goes to.

And yes, when AI left, he helped Philly win. He set a culture there. Share the ball. If you think Andre Miller taking AI's place is going to turn a team around, that is an arguement I'd be interested in hearing. He helped, yes. But Iggy was the hold over, and he helped set the sharing tone that overcame Iverson 'me want ball all the time' mentalitiy.

But hey... you want to mischaracterize my argument, I've no interest in continuing a conversation with you when you are arguing in bad faith.

He just hates anything warriors, lol

Mr.ATLHawks
01-05-2018, 12:51 PM
LOL people trashing Mitch Richmond, seriously? Mitch was a 23-25ppg scorer for a decade and one of the best shooters of that era, smh. Shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Iggy.

mightybosstone
01-05-2018, 12:58 PM
He just hates anything warriors, lol

I do, but that doesn't stop me from being objective when judging their players. Also, I'm not remotely an Iggy hater. On the contrary, I've always loved his game, and I was genuinely excited when he met with the Rockets last summer.

Not thinking Iggy should be in the Hall of Fame is hardly a minority opinion. If you asked any objective, competent NBA fan or analyst, they would absolutely say he shouldn't be in the Hall based on the current criteria.

Heediot
01-05-2018, 01:19 PM
LOL people trashing Mitch Richmond, seriously? Mitch was a 23-25ppg scorer for a decade and one of the best shooters of that era, smh. Shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Iggy.

He did have game. And it was much harder for wings and guards to carry a team back then. It's the reverse now, it's harder for bigs to carry the team, and it's a ball handler/shooting/PNR league. He didn't have the best team around him either, so maybe I personally should go easy on him for not carrying his team to the playoffs much.

nastynice
01-05-2018, 01:25 PM
I do, but that doesn't stop me from being objective when judging their players. Also, I'm not remotely an Iggy hater. On the contrary, I've always loved his game, and I was genuinely excited when he met with the Rockets last summer.

Not thinking Iggy should be in the Hall of Fame is hardly a minority opinion. If you asked any objective, competent NBA fan or analyst, they would absolutely say he shouldn't be in the Hall based on the current criteria.

Any or many?

mightybosstone
01-05-2018, 01:33 PM
Any or many?

There might be a handful who take the minority opinion on this, but the vast majority would not vote Iggy into the Hall of Fame.

mightybosstone
01-05-2018, 01:34 PM
This really doesn't need such a deep dive. Iguodala is an INSANE basketball mind (I've watched him dissect tape and he's as smart a person as there is BBIQ wise), and he's been a premier defensive player for a decade or so, but he's not going to the Hall, and frankly doesn't deserve to. There's an amount of accolades and on court dominance that you need that he simply doesn't have. The Hall is not everything, though. I personally could give a **** about who is in/out of the Hall Of Fame (and I'm sure the modern era guys like Iguodala who have made >100 million in their career don't care so much either).

Just saw this post and agree 100 percent. And it really doesn't deserve a deep dive. The fact that I've had to argue so hard for this kinda blows my mind a little bit.

nastynice
01-05-2018, 01:44 PM
Just saw this post and agree 100 percent. And it really doesn't deserve a deep dive. The fact that I've had to argue so hard for this kinda blows my mind a little bit.

I think a lotta things blow your mind

mightybosstone
01-05-2018, 02:04 PM
I think a lotta things blow your mind

When it comes to the insanely homer opinions of some Warriors fans, absolutely. ;)

kyubi256
01-05-2018, 02:07 PM
No and I wouldn't even say he is close. He's a very good role player but definitely not star

ewing
01-05-2018, 02:47 PM
Drexler's a great player, but he has some of his best seasons in the late 80's and started to tapper off in the mid 90's. Richmond had his entire prime in the 90's. Drexler was better; you'll get no argument from me there. But throughout the duration of the 90's, I would say that Richmond posted better seasons through the decade, though Drexler's season from 90-93 were clearly better. From 94-99 I think it's pretty clearly in favour of Richmond, though 94 and 95 Drexler had a slightly better all around game though averaging less points. Drexler didnt' even play in 99.

Wade's peak was also better. No argument from me there either.


I would say Richmond was a better defender (grossly underated in that department) and a better shooter. He was a 20/4/4 player in his 'average' seasons. Richmond played on a team with few other offensive options and got the brunt end of defences attention, where as Wade had Shaq pulling defenders away, and then LBJ. I've not doubt in my mind that has Richmond gotten to play with Shaq (other than when he was sitting at the end of LAL's bench when he was 36), or LBJ during his prime, then he would have been able to demonstrate even more efficiency.

Wade had the benefit of coming in a little earlier because it was more acceptable for guys to come in after a year or two, so he's got a little more time in that Richmond had. But when you compare their career from 30-35, it's pretty clear that Richmond was playing better at that time in his career, even if Wade was clearly better from 24-29. At 36.... Richmond got relegated to LA's bench, so Wade's doing more at that age than Richmond was granted.

Wade's a better all-around scorer even if not as good a shooter, and is a much better play maker. I'd easily say Wade was better over all and had a higher peak, but if Wade got stuck playing for the Kings during the 90's, and Richmond got to play with Shaq and LBJ, then ten years on, people would remember the winner more favourable.

So yeah... Wade and Drexler are both clearly better, but Richmond is in the conversation among the best guards ever, and all I was saying was that throughout the duration of the 90's, Richmond was likely the second best SG of the decade, and that were he on a winning team instead of getting traded to the Kings, he would be more fondly remember. Instead, like Gervin, he gets easily forgotten. I don't see what is unreasonable about that.

He sacrificed shots he missed when on a team that needed him to take those shots, he is willing to come off the of the bench and he is a good guy. I agree with those points I don't think they get you in the Hall of Fame. You are a Piston fan right? Do you think Vinnie "Mircowave" Johnson should be in?

Saddletramp
01-05-2018, 03:08 PM
I don't understand your point here at all. If we just assumed that a guy was sacrificing for the greater good, why can't we do that with all NBA players? Based on your logic here, we have hundreds of guys in the league capable of scoring 25 points a night who are just sacrificing for others. I don't buy it.

Iggy at his peak was a so-so No. 2 and a solid No. 3, but he was never capable of being a No. 1 guy. Just because he thrived more as an ancillary piece doesn't mean he was necessarily sacrificing for the great good. That was simply the role he was meant to play.


First off, I've never once heard the phrase "band faith," so I have no clue what you mean by that. And I think it's a little pathetic that you're not going to take the time to respond to my response after I actually researched and provide legitimate talking points for each of your arguments, which were essentially broad generalizations that required no research or legitimate thought.

If you don't want to debate me, then don't respond with a novel next time. Or simply don't respond at all.


And I refuted all of these points. There are much better players with much better stats and accolades who are not in the Hall of Fame. And simply stating that a guy is a hard worker and improves the culture of a franchise is a completely bogus argument, because intangibles matter very little when it comes to whether a guy makes it to the Hall of Fame or not. There are probably hundreds of role players in the history of the league who could be described as possessing the same intangibles, and none of them are in the Hall of Fame.


They were 5-19 before the AI trade and something like 30-28 after with Miller. They then played .500 basketball the next two seasons with Miller and made the playoffs both years. I'm not saying that Iggy had no part in that, but to act as if Miller's contribution wasn't a major reason for their improved play or the play of young guys like Thad Young and Lou Williams, then you're just completely obtuse. Iggy does not deserve the majority of the credit for that.


Oh. Bad Faith! That makes more sense. For the record, I'm not the one ignoring facts here. You are. You're just throwing out broad arguments with no data or hard evidence to support anything you're saying. I give you actual hard evidence and numbers, and your refuse to even refute those points. It's pretty clear you have no interest in having an actual debate. You'd rather write 1,000 words expressing your own broad, unsubstantiated opinions and then scoff at the notion that you could be wrong.

It's actual ridiculous to me that I've spent this much time and this many words arguing you, because when it comes down to it, this whole argument rests on this question: "Will Iggy make the Hall of Fame?" And the answer is pretty much unequivocally "no." All you have to do is take five minutes to look over the guys in the Hall and recognize why they're in the Hall, and you'd pretty much immediately recognize that Iggy simply is not that caliber of player.

That's kind of on you, Bosstone. It's JasonJohnHorn for Christ's sake, what'd you expect?

bklynny67
01-05-2018, 04:17 PM
The simple fact there's people (two) in here who think Iggy deserves to be in the HOF, is an insult to the HOF and to previous great players who are currently in it.

JasonJohnHorn
01-06-2018, 12:23 AM
I don't understand your point here at all. If we just assumed that a guy was sacrificing for the greater good, why can't we do that with all NBA players? Based on your logic here, we have hundreds of guys in the league capable of scoring 25 points a night who are just sacrificing for others. I don't buy it.

Iggy at his peak was a so-so No. 2 and a solid No. 3, but he was never capable of being a No. 1 guy. Just because he thrived more as an ancillary piece doesn't mean he was necessarily sacrificing for the great good. That was simply the role he was meant to play.


First off, I've never once heard the phrase "band faith," so I have no clue what you mean by that. And I think it's a little pathetic that you're not going to take the time to respond to my response after I actually researched and provide legitimate talking points for each of your arguments, which were essentially broad generalizations that required no research or legitimate thought.

If you don't want to debate me, then don't respond with a novel next time. Or simply don't respond at all.


And I refuted all of these points. There are much better players with much better stats and accolades who are not in the Hall of Fame. And simply stating that a guy is a hard worker and improves the culture of a franchise is a completely bogus argument, because intangibles matter very little when it comes to whether a guy makes it to the Hall of Fame or not. There are probably hundreds of role players in the history of the league who could be described as possessing the same intangibles, and none of them are in the Hall of Fame.


They were 5-19 before the AI trade and something like 30-28 after with Miller. They then played .500 basketball the next two seasons with Miller and made the playoffs both years. I'm not saying that Iggy had no part in that, but to act as if Miller's contribution wasn't a major reason for their improved play or the play of young guys like Thad Young and Lou Williams, then you're just completely obtuse. Iggy does not deserve the majority of the credit for that.


Oh. Bad Faith! That makes more sense. For the record, I'm not the one ignoring facts here. You are. You're just throwing out broad arguments with no data or hard evidence to support anything you're saying. I give you actual hard evidence and numbers, and your refuse to even refute those points. It's pretty clear you have no interest in having an actual debate. You'd rather write 1,000 words expressing your own broad, unsubstantiated opinions and then scoff at the notion that you could be wrong.

It's actual ridiculous to me that I've spent this much time and this many words arguing you, because when it comes down to it, this whole argument rests on this question: "Will Iggy make the Hall of Fame?" And the answer is pretty much unequivocally "no." All you have to do is take five minutes to look over the guys in the Hall and recognize why they're in the Hall, and you'd pretty much immediately recognize that Iggy simply is not that caliber of player.

Yeah.. bad faith. Sorry for the typo. I wasn't aware I was submitting this post to SI.

Doesn't change the fact that you are using logical fallacies, which you still can't admit, and rather than addressing you say "I use data". HOF isn't just about stat lines. But hey... you misconstrue my arguments, and ramble on without acknowledging that, and then expect somebody to keep going in the conversation?

Argue in good faith next time and you won't have this problem. Keep pointing out typoes rather than speaking to the fundamental problem with your strawman argument, and you'll get nowhere.

JasonJohnHorn
01-06-2018, 12:32 AM
He sacrificed shots he missed when on a team that needed him to take those shots, he is willing to come off the of the bench and he is a good guy. I agree with those points I don't think they get you in the Hall of Fame. You are a Piston fan right? Do you think Vinnie "Mircowave" Johnson should be in?

I love Vinnie... I think it is right that his jersey is retired, but I don't think he should be in the HOF. I do think Iggy should.

But you aren't comparing equal players here.

Vinnie had no All-Star game, no All-NBA or All-Defensive teams, no finals MVPs. He was never a team's leader like Iggy was in Philly. Never set the tone for a team's culture. He was a one-dimensional player. He was undersized for his position and gave up a bit on defense, though he worked hard. I don't think he was as good or as impactful as Iggy.

Interesting analogy though. Props on that.

JasonJohnHorn
01-06-2018, 12:33 AM
that's kind of on you, bosstone. It's jasonjohnhorn for christ's sake, what'd you expect?

lmao...

JasonJohnHorn
01-06-2018, 12:38 AM
Tim Hardaway was a beast early on before those knee injuries. After that he was a nice player but was a fringe all star at best after that.

He was SO good before the knee injury. Those quick point guards are so much fun to watch when they are young, but the seldom play at as high a leverl n their 30's.

nastynice
01-06-2018, 05:28 AM
I love Vinnie... I think it is right that his jersey is retired, but I don't think he should be in the HOF. I do think Iggy should.

But you aren't comparing equal players here.

Vinnie had no All-Star game, no All-NBA or All-Defensive teams, no finals MVPs. He was never a team's leader like Iggy was in Philly. Never set the tone for a team's culture. He was a one-dimensional player. He was undersized for his position and gave up a bit on defense, though he worked hard. I don't think he was as good or as impactful as Iggy.

Interesting analogy though. Props on that.

Iggy got a lot of diff things going for him, def a well rounded candidate. Just not dominant/near dominant at any major thing, the way most HOF are. Altho he really was a filthy defender, he actually still pretty damn good. I donít know how long he was that good for, but when he came to gs, outside of the paint no question he was an elite defender

Winnieís not a very good comparison to Iggy..

basch152
01-06-2018, 05:43 AM
Iggy got a lot of diff things going for him, def a well rounded candidate. Just not dominant/near dominant at any major thing, the way most HOF are. Altho he really was a filthy defender, he actually still pretty damn good. I donít know how long he was that good for, but when he came to gs, outside of the paint no question he was an elite defender

Winnieís not a very good comparison to Iggy..

who the **** tried to compare iggy to the pooh bear?

I don't think he was a very good bball player

nastynice
01-06-2018, 06:43 AM
who the **** tried to compare iggy to the pooh bear?

I don't think he was a very good bball player

Oh no, they were talking about Winnie Johnson earlier, and compared him to Iggy

basch152
01-06-2018, 10:32 AM
Oh no, they were talking about Winnie Johnson earlier, and compared him to Iggy

...you mean vinnie?

ewing
01-06-2018, 10:35 AM
Winnie Cooper. Get with it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Finesser
01-07-2018, 03:17 AM
Regarding Andre, hes the ultimate sacrifice for the team guy, an All-Star/F.MVP, will probably add a few more ringz to his count playing for a historic team.


That aside, here are some notable first ballot candidates;

Jason Kidd, Nash, Ray Allen, Grant Hill, Billups and RIP

Waiting to be added are Webber, Ben Wallace, Tim Hardaway and Sidney Moncrief

Heres a list of all the eligible candidates:

http://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2018/

I donít think Iggy should make it, but the nba hall of fame is a joke. You have a ton of guys that should not be in the HOF but somehow are. I do think Kidd,Nash,Allen,Hill,and Billups do make it.

Saddletramp
01-07-2018, 04:24 AM
...you mean vinnie?

In case you haven't noticed by now, nastynice doesn't really know what he's talking about in pretty much anything basketball related.

Vinylman
01-07-2018, 11:41 AM
Winnie Cooper. Get with it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Winnie is still smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:worthy::worthy::worthy:

Vinylman
01-07-2018, 11:42 AM
In case you haven't noticed by now, nastynice doesn't really know what he's talking about in pretty much anything .

fixed

nastynice
01-07-2018, 12:22 PM
Winnie Cooper. Get with it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Winnie is still smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:worthy::worthy::worthy:

lmao!! :cheers:

nastynice
01-07-2018, 12:23 PM
In case you haven't noticed by now, nastynice doesn't really know what he's talking about in pretty much anything basketball related.


fixed

Hey!

mightybosstone
01-09-2018, 04:12 PM
Yeah.. bad faith. Sorry for the typo. I wasn't aware I was submitting this post to SI.

Doesn't change the fact that you are using logical fallacies, which you still can't admit, and rather than addressing you say "I use data". HOF isn't just about stat lines. But hey... you misconstrue my arguments, and ramble on without acknowledging that, and then expect somebody to keep going in the conversation?

Argue in good faith next time and you won't have this problem. Keep pointing out typoes rather than speaking to the fundamental problem with your strawman argument, and you'll get nowhere.

Name one "logical fallacy" I used in any of my arguments.

Bramaca
01-11-2018, 03:39 PM
Donít really think Iggy belongs in the hof but there are players in there that deserve it less or are comparable. Half the Celtics in the hof were role players. Exaggeration but both Jones and Frank Ramsey and a couple others I canít remember their names. Jamaal Wilkes would also be an example of an Iggy type player making it in and that was only 2012.

mightybosstone
01-11-2018, 04:31 PM
Donít really think Iggy belongs in the hof but there are players in there that deserve it less or are comparable. Half the Celtics in the hof were role players. Exaggeration but both Jones and Frank Ramsey and a couple others I canít remember their names. Jamaal Wilkes would also be an example of an Iggy type player making it in and that was only 2012.

Wilkes is a good comparison in terms of his NBA career, although he was a far more consistent scoring threat in his career than Iggy and won two more titles (thus far). But the key to Wilkes getting in is his college career. He was part of those John Wooden UCLA teams with Bill Walton that won 88 consecutive games and two national titles. He was a two-time All-American and one of the best college players in the world. Iggy's college career was pretty uneventful.

FlashBolt
01-11-2018, 04:35 PM
Yeah.. bad faith. Sorry for the typo. I wasn't aware I was submitting this post to SI.

Doesn't change the fact that you are using logical fallacies, which you still can't admit, and rather than addressing you say "I use data". HOF isn't just about stat lines. But hey... you misconstrue my arguments, and ramble on without acknowledging that, and then expect somebody to keep going in the conversation?

Argue in good faith next time and you won't have this problem. Keep pointing out typoes rather than speaking to the fundamental problem with your strawman argument, and you'll get nowhere.

Lol, you got your booty whipped on this one, bud. He's right. Iguodala is a fine player on a championship team but he was never capable of leading a team as a 1st/2nd option. It isn't about stat lines but it's also about impact and quite frankly, Iguodala doesn't compare to the rest of the guys. Like I said, fine player on a championship team but if we're going to go around saying he is HOF worthy because of what he sacrificed for a team, you could make a legitimate case that every team right now would have a few HOF players.

Bramaca
01-11-2018, 06:03 PM
Wilkes is a good comparison in terms of his NBA career, although he was a far more consistent scoring threat in his career than Iggy and won two more titles (thus far). But the key to Wilkes getting in is his college career. He was part of those John Wooden UCLA teams with Bill Walton that won 88 consecutive games and two national titles. He was a two-time All-American and one of the best college players in the world. Iggy's college career was pretty uneventful.

I donít know if Iíd call Wilkes far more consistent a scoring threat. Over his first 10 seasons he averaged 18.4ppg. Iggy averaged 15.1ppg over his first 9 seasons (role completely changing once on the Warriors). That is a bit of a difference but when you take into consideration that Iggy was playing at a time when the pace was around 10% slower than when Wilkes was playing the difference is minor in terms of scoring. I think the extra 3 plus apg and his superior playmaking ability is worth significantly more then a few ppg. Wilkes does have 2 more titles but we are talking about one player with 4 and another with 2 and a finals mvp not a player with 6 compared to one with none. I would definitely give the advantage to Iggy in terms of NBA career. Wilkes as you say has the college career to look at also while Iggy has a world and Olympic gold medal.

Once again I donít really think of him as a hof player but in comparison to a player like Wilkes he is right there imo. Up until the mid to late 80ís the NBA inducted a lot of players that really werenít deserving probably but thatís what happens when you have 6-8 teams, not as many choices. After that they got a lot more picky because they had options but since 2010 they have been putting more borderline players in for whatever reason. Iggy may end up being one of those someday