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View Full Version : Could injuries cost the Warriors a title this season?



kobe4thewinbang
12-20-2017, 11:35 PM
Steph's ruled out of the Christmas game with his well-known ankle problems, and the Warriors have been playing hot-potato with 'which star sits out this game' so far this season. Draymond's shoulder injury, as well, and Durant being off/on with ankle/thigh problems. Looks like only Klay has avoided the injury bug so far this season.

Do you have a gut feeling on who's gonna win this year? I'd like to see a different team win for a change. It's been cool to see rivalries again, but the East is picking up and lots of power shuffling in the west so far, too. I could see the Rockets maybe making the Finals and taking on the Cavaliers, or the Celtics if Hayward were to come back or if Isaiah Thomas has injury complications.

I personally hate injuries in the NBA, as I feel they've affected too much in the Finals, leading up to the Finals, etc, especially when injuries happen to impact players (e.g. stars). I feel like if any year could be it, it's this one. Durant's career has already been affected by injury, and Steph luckily dodged a lot of early ankle problems, before his last "not 100%" Finals loss to the Cavaliers.

I guess that's how things work sometimes, since the Cavaliers were hurt that one season as the Warriors feasted on the advantage. I hope the Warriors are all good to go, but if they lose Curry, Draymond or Durant for a substantial amount of time in the playoffs, they could get upset by another strong team out west.

Coach Kerr says he's not worried, and I'm sure they'll sit them for the first round/second round somewhat like they've been doing so far this season, no longer worried about "best record ever" kind of stuff. It's kind of a neat season in that regard, seeing teams show that wisdom (Spurs, too). I guess only Cleveland is allowed to tempt fate with LeBron playing crazy minutes all the time.

I mean, I could see the Rockets knocking out the Warriors if they're down a star, based off Houston's scoring prowess alone. Even the Thunder could upset the Warriors at that rate, and of course the Spurs could pull it off. Seeding is important, if these injuries keep being a problem. Right now, they're #1 but Rockets have been strong too lately and that's mostly without Chris Paul. Right now, looks like Pelicans and Nuggets are separating themselves from the lesser teams. So Warriors could draw Pelicans or the Thunder unless OKC gets their act together. If OKC works it out, they'd make for a fun matchup in the first round. Pelicans would be worth watching too, see how their two bigs work against the Warriors and put Rondo on Curry. Klay's shooting has not been its best lately, either, as they barely beat the Lakers with both Curry & Draymond out.

Overall, I feel like the league is getting good again and this year's finals may reflect that change. Every team falls off eventually, no matter how great they once were. Adjustments need to be made to stay in the mix.

tredigs
12-21-2017, 01:54 AM
Well, they definitely don't have any serious injuries right now, and Curry/Green being able to sit out for an extended period of time during the easiest stretch of the year for them is a major blessing in disguise. But yeah, some of these other teams are definitely no joke. The Spurs were on a 60 win pace WITHOUT a top 5 player in the league, and the Rockets look like complete world beaters and definitely can create enough variance to win a 7 game series against anyone if they go lights out for a few games (they can). The Cavs are also doing nothing but racking up wins and are about to add a top-5 MVP candidate and the best 4th quarter closer from last season. The league is in a great space, despite everyone here crying to the moon 3 months ago that it was ruined by KD and there was no point to watch the regular season.

That said, the Warriors are absolutely still the team to beat and have given me no reason to believe otherwise (I think this is their best team).

valade16
12-21-2017, 05:31 AM
There are a lot of great teams this year... all rendered moot by GS, who are still vastly superior to the rest of the league.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2017, 10:41 AM
They could lose one of their top 3 players to a season ending injury, and still be favorites to win the title. So sure, to answer the OP question. However, it will take massive injury concerns imo, for GS to not win it all. That or complete underperformance.

The Warriors are the best team in history. They have the largest gap between them, and the rest of the league, I can ever remember.

Scoots
12-21-2017, 10:59 AM
Yes

MygirlhatesCod
12-21-2017, 11:16 AM
No

prodigy
12-21-2017, 11:25 AM
They have 1 guy out who will return in a week or so lol. so right now no.

But i do think injuries will catch up to them eventually. They have been very lucky. 3 years ago Irving ans Love go down they beat cavs. Next year cavs are healthy Cleveland wins. So Injuries hit most teams but have evaded Warriors. The thing is with GS stacking their team they are still one of the best in the league even without one of Curry or Durant.

prodigy
12-21-2017, 11:31 AM
The league is in a great space, despite everyone here crying to the moon 3 months ago that it was ruined by KD and there was no point to watch the regular season.

That said, the Warriors are absolutely still the team to beat and have given me no reason to believe otherwise (I think this is their best team).

I agree the league is on the rise. But Just image if KD was not on the Warriors lol. The league would be even better with no clear cut favs. Spurs, GS, Rockets, Cavs, Boston etc... Would all have shots. I just don't see how anyone can beat GS in 7 games. or even 6. You made a nice case but Warriors went dirty and got KD for a reason. To dominate and not be challenged.

lol, please
12-21-2017, 01:13 PM
They could lose one of their top 3 players to a season ending injury, and still be favorites to win the title. So sure, to answer the OP question. However, it will take massive injury concerns imo, for GS to not win it all. That or complete underperformance.

The Warriors are the best team in history. They have the largest gap between them, and the rest of the league, I can ever remember.Well said.

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lol, please
12-21-2017, 01:15 PM
I agree the league is on the rise. But Just image if KD was not on the Warriors lol. The league would be even better with no clear cut favs. Spurs, GS, Rockets, Cavs, Boston etc... Would all have shots. I just don't see how anyone can beat GS in 7 games. or even 6. You made a nice case but Warriors went dirty and got KD for a reason. To dominate and not be challenged.Just because you don't lose doesnt mean you were not challenged.

Just because you lost doesnt mean you were not the best team in the series.

Games are played for a reason.

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HandsOnTheWheel
12-21-2017, 01:42 PM
Anything can happen but nah

nastynice
12-21-2017, 01:47 PM
I agree the league is on the rise. But Just image if KD was not on the Warriors lol. The league would be even better with no clear cut favs. Spurs, GS, Rockets, Cavs, Boston etc... Would all have shots. I just don't see how anyone can beat GS in 7 games. or even 6. You made a nice case but Warriors went dirty and got KD for a reason. To dominate and not be challenged.

Isnít EVERY team trying to dominate?

mngopher35
12-21-2017, 01:50 PM
It's unfortunate but an injury to a top gs player is the best way to get a competitive playoffs at this point. Like others have mentioned the gap is so big right now in the league they could still be favorites.

MygirlhatesCod
12-21-2017, 02:00 PM
I agree the league is on the rise. But Just image if KD was not on the Warriors lol. The league would be even better with no clear cut favs. Spurs, GS, Rockets, Cavs, Boston etc... Would all have shots. I just don't see how anyone can beat GS in 7 games. or even 6. You made a nice case but Warriors went dirty and got KD for a reason. To dominate and not be challenged.

I really doubt most teams would have tried to assemble talent at the level it has been without KD joining the dubs.

WaDe03
12-21-2017, 02:00 PM
They're definitely not the favorites over the Cavs if any of the big 4 get injured imo, especially KD or Curry. It's just that adding one of those guys is a HUGE boost.

prodigy
12-21-2017, 03:09 PM
Isnít EVERY team trying to dominate?

sure. What GS did is complelety legal. but dirty. Most the blame goes to Durant for being a noncompetitive sissy.

lol, please
12-21-2017, 03:55 PM
They're definitely not the favorites over the Cavs if any of the big 4 get injured imo, especially KD or Curry. It's just that adding one of those guys is a HUGE boost.Not to you maybe.

To me they would still be. Then again, I consider the Cavaliers the 3rd best team in the east. I don't think they've improved on paper and will be genuinely surprised if they make the finals.

Definitely more worried about even the Thunder in the West if the Warriors are dealing with major injuries entering the playoffs.

Still a believer in "the real finals is the WCF" here.

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WaDe03
12-21-2017, 05:16 PM
Not to you maybe.

To me they would still be. Then again, I consider the Cavaliers the 3rd best team in the east. I don't think they've improved on paper and will be genuinely surprised if they make the finals.

Definitely more worried about even the Thunder in the West if the Warriors are dealing with major injuries entering the playoffs.

Still a believer in "the real finals is the WCF" here.

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Lmao!

lol, please
12-21-2017, 05:19 PM
Lmao!Laugh while you can bro, might not be as funny during the playoffs depending on how things turn out.

[emoji57]

I just want Wade to be healthy. Will be exciting to see him playing for his life against the Raptors and Celtics.

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WaDe03
12-21-2017, 05:20 PM
Laugh while you can bro, might not be as funny during the playoffs depending on how things turn out.

[emoji57]

I just want Wade to be healthy. Will be exciting to see him playing for his life against the Raptors and Celtics.

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The Raptors and Celtics will be very lucky to push the Cavs to more than 5 games.

goingfor28
12-21-2017, 05:29 PM
The Raptors and Celtics will be very lucky to push the Cavs to more than 5 games.Yup. Cavs will once again steamroll the entire EC come playoff time.

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Bostonjorge
12-21-2017, 06:13 PM
The Raptors and Celtics will be very lucky to push the Cavs to more than 5 games.

Old Cavs in the east finals against the young Celtics. No way itís over in 5. Boston will push them to 7 for sure. Irving keeps improving. Playoffs Irving has always been dangerous. Canít wait for May.

Bostonjorge
12-21-2017, 06:20 PM
If only Green is out come playoff time then Warriors will be in trouble for sure. Still the favorite with Durant and Curry but Green keeps them both in check and keeps the team playing team ball and not hero ball.

lol, please
12-21-2017, 06:33 PM
The Raptors and Celtics will be very lucky to push the Cavs to more than 5 games.Said most on here about the Warriors chances against the Nuggets during The Iggy Saga.

Games need to be played homie.

;)

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WaDe03
12-21-2017, 06:35 PM
Old Cavs in the east finals against the young Celtics. No way itís over in 5. Boston will push them to 7 for sure. Irving keeps improving. Playoffs Irving has always been dangerous. Canít wait for May.

Nah it's for sure not going 7. They do not have near enough fire power to hang with the Cavs. I hope Hayward does come back, if he does I'll still be surprised if it goes 6. The Cavs as they are would steamroll anyone in the East, they're about to add IT and it'll just be that much easier.

WaDe03
12-21-2017, 06:36 PM
Said most on here about the Warriors chances against the Nuggets during The Iggy Saga.

Games need to be played homie.

;)

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You know better though lol. You're clearly trolling. No one literally thinks the Cavs are the 3rd best in the East. There's no way someone can think that.

lol, please
12-21-2017, 06:45 PM
You know better though lol. You're clearly trolling. No one literally thinks the Cavs are the 3rd best in the East. There's no way someone can think that.I mean, other than me sure most probably don't. But just remember I underrate LeBron and cling to the choker label ( Don't care about recent finals, first impressions are lasting ones) and I believe they got worse not better as I said earlier.


You know I hate LeBron so I don't see why you're surprised, I'm going to rate any team he's on lower than everyone else.

Plus I've been hyping the Raptors for 3 years so every year the narrative will be the same with me - Raptors are finals bound til I see them eliminated, then I'll accept reality lol.

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WaDe03
12-21-2017, 06:48 PM
I mean, other than me sure most probably don't. But just remember I underrate LeBron and cling to the choker label ( Don't care about recent finals, first impressions are lasting ones) and I believe they got worse not better as I said earlier.


You know I hate LeBron so I don't see why you're surprised, I'm going to rate any team he's on lower than everyone else.

Plus I've been hyping the Raptors for 3 years so every year the narrative will be the same with me - Raptors are finals bound til I see them eliminated, then I'll accept reality lol.

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Lol well at least you know you're lying to yourself.

Why do you think they got worse? IT and Kyrie are basically a wash, LeBron has been better, they added Crowder, and the bench is head and shoulders better.

nastynice
12-21-2017, 07:06 PM
sure. What GS did is complelety legal. but dirty. Most the blame goes to Durant for being a noncompetitive sissy.

Haha, bro the Yankees buy the most expensive team every year yet less people complain about that. We built our team with the same cap as everyone else, not only that we paid market value (above market value according to the majority of fans at the time of dray and klay signing) when we signed everyone. Definitely not dirty, lol

Durant is in the perfect system for him. Weíve even brought out a defensive monster no one ever knew was in him. He made the smartest decision. Possibility of going down in history as a goat team is such a huge thing, he made the right move. They have an opportunity to do something truly special here.

Scoots
12-21-2017, 09:01 PM
It's unfortunate but an injury to a top gs player is the best way to get a competitive playoffs at this point. Like others have mentioned the gap is so big right now in the league they could still be favorites.

The Rockets, Spurs, and Pelicans could all pose easy issues for the Warriors even healthy. And I don't think it's a lock they beat anybody ... likely but not a lock. I don't think it's the disaster people seem to think it is.

tredigs
12-21-2017, 09:25 PM
The Rockets, Spurs, and Pelicans could all pose easy issues for the Warriors even healthy. And I don't think it's a lock they beat anybody ... likely but not a lock. I don't think it's the disaster people seem to think it is.
Lmfao @ Pelicans.

TrueFan420
12-21-2017, 10:07 PM
Lmfao @ Pelicans.

I mean they aren't in the same class as the Rockets or Spurs but their bigs can and will give us all types of problems. If they can get their wings to play well they'll be a difficult match up... though still one we should be able to handle.

tredigs
12-21-2017, 10:48 PM
I mean they aren't in the same class as the Rockets or Spurs but their bigs can and will give us all types of problems. If they can get their wings to play well they'll be a difficult match up... though still one we should be able to handle.

We offer a HOST of far tougher matchups than anything their bigs do. They would get slaughtered every time if the two played 10 consecutive 7 game series.

Scoots
12-22-2017, 10:26 AM
We offer a HOST of far tougher matchups than anything their bigs do. They would get slaughtered every time if the two played 10 consecutive 7 game series.

The Warriors can't stop DMC and AD ... the issue is that the rest of their team has been bad. If they get healthy and play at the top of their game they could give the Warriors fits. I said it wasn't likely, but it's possible.

On the topic of how the Warriors are doing this year even with the large number of games missed ... they are 5th in pace, 1st in offensive rating, and are now up to 2nd in defensive rating, and the top net rating ... all above the Rockets and Spurs.

tredigs
12-22-2017, 12:04 PM
The Warriors can't stop DMC and AD ... the issue is that the rest of their team has been bad. If they get healthy and play at the top of their game they could give the Warriors fits. I said it wasn't likely, but it's possible.

On the topic of how the Warriors are doing this year even with the large number of games missed ... they are 5th in pace, 1st in offensive rating, and are now up to 2nd in defensive rating, and the top net rating ... all above the Rockets and Spurs.
You're missing the other side of that coin. DMC and AD can't stop the Warriors. And we have the more potent offensive options. Even if built better, that tandem is far less scary than many other teams I can think of. If Jason Kidd was not their coach, I would be more worried about a Bucks upset. Or the Timberwolves if Wiggins and AD bought in. Teams with a host of long, athletic players. Granted, that's also the Warriors.

Even without injury, though, the Rockets offer upset potential IF they do their best to make sure their guys are 100% entering the post season, which is looking like a major weakness right now under D'Antoni. I actually heard an argument from a Rockets fan recently that said that they were playing so many extra minutes late in games together in order to get as many defensive reps as possible. GL with that strategy come May if they're going against rested teams.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-22-2017, 01:30 PM
You're missing the other side of that coin. DMC and AD can't stop the Warriors. And we have the more potent offensive options. Even if built better, that tandem is far less scary than many other teams I can think of. If Jason Kidd was not their coach, I would be more worried about a Bucks upset. Or the Timberwolves if Wiggins and AD bought in. Teams with a host of long, athletic players. Granted, that's also the Warriors.

Even without injury, though, the Rockets offer upset potential IF they do their best to make sure their guys are 100% entering the post season, which is looking like a major weakness right now under D'Antoni. I actually heard an argument from a Rockets fan recently that said that they were playing so many extra minutes late in games together in order to get as many defensive reps as possible. GL with that strategy come May if they're going against rested teams.

Still hoping Bucks pull off a big trade or two yet. Bucks will be buyers this trade deadline. Also new arena next season.

mngopher35
12-22-2017, 02:31 PM
It's unfortunate but an injury to a top gs player is the best way to get a competitive playoffs at this point. Like others have mentioned the gap is so big right now in the league they could still be favorites.

The Rockets, Spurs, and Pelicans could all pose easy issues for the Warriors even healthy. And I don't think it's a lock they beat anybody ... likely but not a lock. I don't think it's the disaster people seem to think it is.

I mean it should be better than last year but some tried to say the same thing then too.

Warriors are just clearly above every other team in the league still. I agree that Spurs, rockets and probably cavs IMO (if everything went right) might have a chance to win but it is small. There is still a large gap in the league

lol, please
12-22-2017, 02:57 PM
You're missing the other side of that coin. DMC and AD can't stop the Warriors. And we have the more potent offensive options. Even if built better, that tandem is far less scary than many other teams I can think of. If Jason Kidd was not their coach, I would be more worried about a Bucks upset. Or the Timberwolves if Wiggins and AD bought in. Teams with a host of long, athletic players. Granted, that's also the Warriors.

Even without injury, though, the Rockets offer upset potential IF they do their best to make sure their guys are 100% entering the post season, which is looking like a major weakness right now under D'Antoni. I actually heard an argument from a Rockets fan recently that said that they were playing so many extra minutes late in games together in order to get as many defensive reps as possible. GL with that strategy come May if they're going against rested teams.That's an interesting strategy and I see your point but if they don't amass key injuries it pays off.

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D-Leethal
12-22-2017, 03:01 PM
I see the Rockets making a deadline move and being a legit foe in the playoffs this season.

FlashBolt
12-22-2017, 03:07 PM
The Warriors can't stop DMC and AD ... the issue is that the rest of their team has been bad. If they get healthy and play at the top of their game they could give the Warriors fits. I said it wasn't likely, but it's possible.

On the topic of how the Warriors are doing this year even with the large number of games missed ... they are 5th in pace, 1st in offensive rating, and are now up to 2nd in defensive rating, and the top net rating ... all above the Rockets and Spurs.

I don't get how Pelicans are this bad considering they have the best frontcourt by far but they are still a team where I think if something starts clicking, they'll just beat you by sheer size. I do agree, looking at the lineups, Pelicans favor well against the Warriors. But I think they're just too used to losing that they really don't play to win. Cousins just looks like he wants to hit someone and AD just likes stat-stuffing.

FlashBolt
12-22-2017, 03:07 PM
Unless they have a key injury in the playoffs, I don't see injuries being a factor. And as other posters have said, they could lose any one of their star players and likely still win the title this year. That being said, I kind of feel like Green is more integral to their postseason success than Curry or Durant. If Green were to go down, my gut tells me that would make them most vulnerable.

Would force KD to play PF because they really have no one else at that spot. KD would get hammered down there. Right now, he's easily flowing into offense but KD wants no part playing big. We actually tried doing that when we couldn't rely on Ibaka and KD just seems uncomfortable with that. He's got the height but one elbow to the chest and he's backing off for the rest of the game.

mightybosstone
12-22-2017, 03:08 PM
Unless they have a key injury in the playoffs, I don't see injuries being a factor. And as other posters have said, they could lose any one of their star players and likely still win the title this year. That being said, I kind of feel like Green is more integral to their postseason success than Curry or Durant. If Green were to go down, my gut tells me that would make them most vulnerable.

prodigy
12-22-2017, 03:15 PM
Not to you maybe.

To me they would still be. Then again, I consider the Cavaliers the 3rd best team in the east. I don't think they've improved on paper and will be genuinely surprised if they make the finals.

Definitely more worried about even the Thunder in the West if the Warriors are dealing with major injuries entering the playoffs.

Still a believer in "the real finals is the WCF" here.

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HUH? lmao!!!

prodigy
12-22-2017, 03:18 PM
if KD goes down I would give the edge to Cleveland if they are healthy. If Curry goes down GS prob wins. Reason is LeBron can cover Curry pretty easily. Where as Durant can drain shots even if Lebrons all over him.

FlashBolt
12-22-2017, 03:21 PM
if KD goes down I would give the edge to Cleveland if they are healthy. If Curry goes down GS prob wins. Reason is LeBron can cover Curry pretty easily. Where as Durant can drain shots even if Lebrons all over him.

But LeBron wrecks KD every time.

tredigs
12-22-2017, 03:27 PM
if KD goes down I would give the edge to Cleveland if they are healthy. If Curry goes down GS prob wins. Reason is LeBron can cover Curry pretty easily. Where as Durant can drain shots even if Lebrons all over him.

This is pretty much entirely wrong.

nastynice
12-22-2017, 04:40 PM
But LeBron wrecks KD every time.

lol, stop

WaDe03
12-22-2017, 06:14 PM
Without Curry Durant or Green I think the Cavs for sure win. Without Klay it would be tougher. If none are injured I still think they can do it but it depends on if they make any more moves and how good IT is.

lol, please
12-22-2017, 06:35 PM
This is pretty much entirely wrong.Hilariously so

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lol, please
12-22-2017, 06:36 PM
But LeBron wrecks KD every time.Has been true never.

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tredigs
12-22-2017, 08:06 PM
Unless they have a key injury in the playoffs, I don't see injuries being a factor. And as other posters have said, they could lose any one of their star players and likely still win the title this year. That being said, I kind of feel like Green is more integral to their postseason success than Curry or Durant. If Green were to go down, my gut tells me that would make them most vulnerable.

It's still Curry, followed by Green and then Durant and Klay. With KD and Jordan Bell they still maintain enough defensive versatility to keep them elite on that end, and while there is also a drop off offensively with his playmaking and occasional floor stretching, they still have an abundance of riches on that end. Without Curry, you not only lose your best playmaker, but they now become a far more traditional (albeit still strong) team to gameplay for offensively. He's the X factor that they not only have to focus on with the ball at 35 feet out even if he's not shooting, but off the ball as he's constantly sprinting around multiple screens and creating wide open alley-oops/layups without even touching the ball. Oh, and he's also pretty good when he's actually shooting the ball.


As an aside, I just read that D'Antoni has already scrapped morning shootarounds so that the Rockets can spend longer sleeping in before games. Assuming Harden and company aren't spending too much of that extra time nursing hangovers from the night before and are dead set on trying to win the title, that is going to pay dividends for them and mitigates one of my major concerns for their team (being overworked with short rotations and big minutes for Harden).

lol, please
12-22-2017, 08:12 PM
It's still Curry, followed by Green and then Durant and Klay. With KD and Jordan Bell they still maintain enough defensive versatility to keep them elite on that end, and while there is also a drop off offensively with his playmaking and occasional floor stretching, they still have an abundance of riches on that end. Without Curry, you not only lose your best playmaker, but they now become a far more traditional (albeit still strong) team to gameplay for offensively. He's the X factor that they not only have to focus on with the ball at 35 feet out even if he's not shooting, but off the ball as he's constantly sprinting around multiple screens and creating wide open alley-oops/layups without even touching the ball. Oh, and he's also pretty good when he's actually shooting the ball.


As an aside, I just read that D'Antoni has already scrapped morning shootarounds so that the Rockets can spend longer sleeping in before games. Assuming Harden and company aren't spending too much of that extra time nursing hangovers from the night before and are dead set on trying to win the title, that is going to pay dividends for them and mitigates one of my major concerns for their team (being overworked with short rotations and big minutes for Harden).I just want a WCF for the ages.

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tredigs
12-22-2017, 08:19 PM
I just want a WCF for the ages.

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We're overlooking Pop and the Spurs who truly are D'Antoni kryptonite and could also give the Warriors real problems, but agreed, I'm hoping both teams are 100% and this series goes down. And if the Warriors end up with the 2 seed and have to play/beat San Antonio in the prior round (assuming a hard fought series), it could even it up even more (especially considering Houston would have HCA). Could be very very fun.

Scoots
12-22-2017, 08:56 PM
We're overlooking Pop and the Spurs who truly are D'Antoni kryptonite and could also give the Warriors real problems, but agreed, I'm hoping both teams are 100% and this series goes down. And if the Warriors end up with the 2 seed and have to play/beat San Antonio in the prior round (assuming a hard fought series), it could even it up even more (especially considering Houston would have HCA). Could be very very fun.

And if Houston makes the WCF.

tredigs
12-22-2017, 09:18 PM
And if Houston makes the WCF.

My first sentence.

prodigy
12-24-2017, 10:05 AM
But LeBron wrecks KD every time.

I think the cavs in general can cover Curry. KD is just a different animal. Plus he can rebound and defend much better then Curry.

LeBron can def wreck Durant and has done that a lot. But with Durant having much better players around him and the fact LeBron also switches on Curry it makes it harder on LeBron.

prodigy
12-24-2017, 10:13 AM
This is pretty much entirely wrong.

Explain how? Lebron did a great job switching onto Curry 2 years ago when Cleveland beat GS coming back from down 3-1. last finals Durant went off. Lebron was switching back and forth and it wore him down.

BTW- this is all opinions. when saying how good a team would do with or without someone against the cavs is opinion based because we don't know until after it happens. So nobody can really be wrong lol.

But waiting on why I'm so wrong.

kobe4thewinbang
12-25-2017, 02:56 AM
Explain how? Lebron did a great job switching onto Curry 2 years ago when Cleveland beat GS coming back from down 3-1. last finals Durant went off. Lebron was switching back and forth and it wore him down.

BTW- this is all opinions. when saying how good a team would do with or without someone against the cavs is opinion based because we don't know until after it happens. So nobody can really be wrong lol.

But waiting on why I'm so wrong.Last Finals was tough for me to watch, seeing LeBron slay as usual. How many points did he score in a row for the Cavaliers? Not surprising the Kyrie rift happened afterward. Hopefully, Wade can be what D-Williams and others couldn't be. JR Smith had a solid last game. Love's been better as a secondary option for sure. Kyrie's great play in the Finals win was nice and will be missed, but he killed the Cavaliers in that last game taking bad shots and hero balling it. I got "owned" for dissing Kyrie's play in that game, but it still bothers me. My question now is can Jae Crowder help LeBron out and not let him get so exhausted? Hopefully Isaiah Thomas comes through for the Cavaliers. He had a great year for the Celtics. That lightning-quick 3PTer and "big man" mentality will come in handy if he is still okay after his hip trouble. I was watching I.T.'s "Players Tribune" video-ography when he got word on the trade. Made me feel bad for these guys when they get traded, having to move again and be in a nervous flux all the time. I know they're paid well, but that's gotta be rough. I.T. was saying "man my kid only knows Boston" and he felt very unappreciated for his great season. Naturally Kyrie has been killing it for the Celtics, but not in the same way for sure. Now, Durant might feast on Crowder but at least LeBron could kinda/sorta help minimize either Klay or Curry.

kobe4thewinbang
12-25-2017, 02:58 AM
We're overlooking Pop and the Spurs who truly are D'Antoni kryptonite and could also give the Warriors real problems, but agreed, I'm hoping both teams are 100% and this series goes down. And if the Warriors end up with the 2 seed and have to play/beat San Antonio in the prior round (assuming a hard fought series), it could even it up even more (especially considering Houston would have HCA). Could be very very fun.I want to say "Spurs are a threat" but injury concerns and how Houston damn near took them out last season is very disconcerting. I'm hoping Leonard is good to go for good soon, along with Parker. Manu's been nice and Rudy Gay is solid, as has been Gasol, and Aldridge has finally stepped up. Just hope they can pull it all together and make it work, healthily of course! It'd be awesome having a "Six-Pack Challenge" in the western conference, lol.

nastynice
12-25-2017, 10:26 PM
But LeBron wrecks KD every time.

You catch that Christmas game tho..? lmao, bro!

One them boys got wrecked, that much I'll agree with

prodigy
12-27-2017, 11:21 AM
Last Finals was tough for me to watch, seeing LeBron slay as usual. How many points did he score in a row for the Cavaliers? Not surprising the Kyrie rift happened afterward. Hopefully, Wade can be what D-Williams and others couldn't be. JR Smith had a solid last game. Love's been better as a secondary option for sure. Kyrie's great play in the Finals win was nice and will be missed, but he killed the Cavaliers in that last game taking bad shots and hero balling it. I got "owned" for dissing Kyrie's play in that game, but it still bothers me. My question now is can Jae Crowder help LeBron out and not let him get so exhausted? Hopefully Isaiah Thomas comes through for the Cavaliers. He had a great year for the Celtics. That lightning-quick 3PTer and "big man" mentality will come in handy if he is still okay after his hip trouble. I was watching I.T.'s "Players Tribune" video-ography when he got word on the trade. Made me feel bad for these guys when they get traded, having to move again and be in a nervous flux all the time. I know they're paid well, but that's gotta be rough. I.T. was saying "man my kid only knows Boston" and he felt very unappreciated for his great season. Naturally Kyrie has been killing it for the Celtics, but not in the same way for sure. Now, Durant might feast on Crowder but at least LeBron could kinda/sorta help minimize either Klay or Curry.

Kyrie had a lot of issues playing without lebron when he was on the cavs. He couldn't get open as much and he forced shots. you said it perfectly he played hero ball and did not want to pass at all. I'm talking more about regular season. Kyrie balled out in finals they were just over matched by GS with sissy man boy Durant going there and hurting the competitive balance.

Crowder played Durant pretty solid the other day.

prodigy
12-27-2017, 11:23 AM
You catch that Christmas game tho..? lmao, bro!

One them boys got wrecked, that much I'll agree with

Nobody really got wrecked. Neither team can be that happy. both missing key PG's yes. Lebron had prob his worse game of the season and could've still won. BTW- NBA admitted Durant fouled Lebron twice on the last play with 27 secs left.

nastynice
12-27-2017, 12:57 PM
Nobody really got wrecked. Neither team can be that happy. both missing key PG's yes. Lebron had prob his worse game of the season and could've still won. BTW- NBA admitted Durant fouled Lebron twice on the last play with 27 secs left.

Lebron done got his **** swatted how many times? lmao, you kidding me??

KD wants to guard and be guarded by lebron. Lebron don't want none of it. NONE of it. lmao

And I know everyone knows it. Its pretty damn obvious.

Last two possessions kd lock that boy down. Ain't no one gonna give him that soft *** call, especially when he been doing his usual stiff arm every time he drives, he just flailing out his stiff arm again for contact expecting a call to be made, lol, cmon man, the **** outta here with that! He got his **** sent the **** right back in his face MULTIPLE times. Every time KD had the ball and saw lebron was switched on him, that boy's eyes would light up, haha, its a beautiful thing to watch :)

Last year's finals were just the first step. My boy kd wants that crown! :nod:

GoferKing_
12-27-2017, 02:26 PM
Nope.

lol, please
12-27-2017, 03:32 PM
Lebron done got his **** swatted how many times? lmao, you kidding me??

KD wants to guard and be guarded by lebron. Lebron don't want none of it. NONE of it. lmao

And I know everyone knows it. Its pretty damn obvious.

Last two possessions kd lock that boy down. Ain't no one gonna give him that soft *** call, especially when he been doing his usual stiff arm every time he drives, he just flailing out his stiff arm again for contact expecting a call to be made, lol, cmon man, the **** outta here with that! He got his **** sent the **** right back in his face MULTIPLE times. Every time KD had the ball and saw lebron was switched on him, that boy's eyes would light up, haha, its a beautiful thing to watch :)

Last year's finals were just the first step. My boy kd wants that crown! :nod:Durant was rising to the challenge, LeBron was crumbling under the pressure.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Vee-Rex
12-27-2017, 03:55 PM
Lebron done got his **** swatted how many times? lmao, you kidding me??

KD wants to guard and be guarded by lebron. Lebron don't want none of it. NONE of it. lmao

And I know everyone knows it. Its pretty damn obvious.

Last two possessions kd lock that boy down. Ain't no one gonna give him that soft *** call, especially when he been doing his usual stiff arm every time he drives, he just flailing out his stiff arm again for contact expecting a call to be made, lol, cmon man, the **** outta here with that! He got his **** sent the **** right back in his face MULTIPLE times. Every time KD had the ball and saw lebron was switched on him, that boy's eyes would light up, haha, its a beautiful thing to watch :)

Last year's finals were just the first step. My boy kd wants that crown! :nod:

KD is a beast.

I think it's actually a smart thing to do. If LeBron ever gets switched onto him, KD should go at him. Wear him down. It'll only hurt the Cavs even more if LBJ is expending more energy guarding Durant. The tired, slow, worn-out LeBron tends to rack up 6+ turnovers and that usually has a nasty result for the team.

FlashBolt
12-27-2017, 03:58 PM
Lebron done got his **** swatted how many times? lmao, you kidding me??

KD wants to guard and be guarded by lebron. Lebron don't want none of it. NONE of it. lmao

And I know everyone knows it. Its pretty damn obvious.

Last two possessions kd lock that boy down. Ain't no one gonna give him that soft *** call, especially when he been doing his usual stiff arm every time he drives, he just flailing out his stiff arm again for contact expecting a call to be made, lol, cmon man, the **** outta here with that! He got his **** sent the **** right back in his face MULTIPLE times. Every time KD had the ball and saw lebron was switched on him, that boy's eyes would light up, haha, its a beautiful thing to watch :)

Last year's finals were just the first step. My boy kd wants that crown! :nod:

you type like some ghetto garbage in the projects.

HandsOnTheWheel
12-27-2017, 07:07 PM
Lmao

nastynice
12-27-2017, 11:50 PM
you type like some ghetto garbage in the projects.

Awesome come back!!

nastynice
12-27-2017, 11:51 PM
KD is a beast.

I think it's actually a smart thing to do. If LeBron ever gets switched onto him, KD should go at him. Wear him down. It'll only hurt the Cavs even more if LBJ is expending more energy guarding Durant. The tired, slow, worn-out LeBron tends to rack up 6+ turnovers and that usually has a nasty result for the team.

Yea, kd is too long, it's a great matchup for him

Saddletramp
12-28-2017, 02:19 AM
Said most on here about the Warriors chances against the Nuggets during The Iggy Saga.

Games need to be played homie.

;)

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Oh, is one of the Warriors players going to turn double agent and rat to the other team what the Warriors will do? I doubt it's Iguodala this time since he's signed for another few years but he did it once......

Scoots
12-28-2017, 10:41 AM
oh, is one of the warriors players going to turn double agent and rat to the other team what the warriors will do? I doubt it's iguodala this time since he's signed for another few years but he did it once......

lol

prodigy
12-28-2017, 11:46 AM
Durant was rising to the challenge, LeBron was crumbling under the pressure.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Pressure????? lebron avg a triple double in the NBA finals and finals MVP the year before. also 2 other finals MVP awards LMAO!!! Sure Lebron and the Cavs would've liked to win the game of course. But they don't give 2 craps about beating the warriors in the regular season. Soon as Thomas gets back and in the fold you will see lebron start sitting games here and there.

prodigy
12-28-2017, 11:47 AM
Lebron done got his **** swatted how many times? lmao, you kidding me??

KD wants to guard and be guarded by lebron. Lebron don't want none of it. NONE of it. lmao

And I know everyone knows it. Its pretty damn obvious.

Last two possessions kd lock that boy down. Ain't no one gonna give him that soft *** call, especially when he been doing his usual stiff arm every time he drives, he just flailing out his stiff arm again for contact expecting a call to be made, lol, cmon man, the **** outta here with that! He got his **** sent the **** right back in his face MULTIPLE times. Every time KD had the ball and saw lebron was switched on him, that boy's eyes would light up, haha, its a beautiful thing to watch :)

Last year's finals were just the first step. My boy kd wants that crown! :nod:

Reading this i just pictured a homeless guy on the street yelling at people who won't give him money.

prodigy
12-28-2017, 11:58 AM
BTW- KD will never have the crown. He will have to share it with 3 other guys.

nastynice
12-28-2017, 01:11 PM
Reading this i just pictured a homeless guy on the street yelling at people who won't give him money.

That homeless man can teach you a lot about basketball :)

Raps18-19 Champ
12-28-2017, 01:47 PM
I hope it does.

prodigy
12-28-2017, 02:27 PM
That homeless man can teach you a lot about basketball :)

maybe a homeless man could, but not this one :)

Hawkeye15
12-28-2017, 02:41 PM
Yea, kd is too long, it's a great matchup for him

well, it is now. LeBron when younger owned KD. You just can't have LeBron expending so much energy defensively at this point, his team depends on him too much offensively.

nastynice
12-28-2017, 03:15 PM
well, it is now. LeBron when younger owned KD. You just can't have LeBron expending so much energy defensively at this point, his team depends on him too much offensively.

Yea, but now kd has more experience too, so that coupled with his physical length just makes him so much better one on one. Heís superior on both sides of the ball, itís pretty clear

Kd wants to make it 1 on 1. Lebron wants to make it a team game, he canít handle kd 1 on 1 on either side of the court. I guess thatís the whole chess part of basketball

With curry it was opposite, lebron wanted to make it 1 on 1 and curry wanted to make it team

Scoots
12-28-2017, 03:48 PM
well, it is now. LeBron when younger owned KD. You just can't have LeBron expending so much energy defensively at this point, his team depends on him too much offensively.

Yes, and KD's defensive game has grown a lot too. LeBron is still a total freak though ... I'm surprised nobody has done what the Pistons did with MJ and just try to beat the crap out of him. He somehow manages to escape hard fouls most of the time, though some of that may be that the league in general is far softer than it once was.

lol, please
12-28-2017, 04:50 PM
well, it is now. LeBron when younger owned KD. You just can't have LeBron expending so much energy defensively at this point, his team depends on him too much offensively.The greats show up on both sides of the floor. No excuses.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

nastynice
12-28-2017, 07:17 PM
The greats show up on both sides of the floor. No excuses.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

lol, I love it!! :cheers:

prodigy
12-29-2017, 10:45 AM
Yea, but now kd has more experience too, so that coupled with his physical length just makes him so much better one on one. Heís superior on both sides of the ball, itís pretty clear

Because of one game? I know Durant had that big shot in the finals last year (game 5 if u consider that a big shot). But Lebron avg a triple double lol. They both played great but don't ever forget who Lebron is. You can hate him all you want but don't disrespect a mans game. I get you are a KD fan, but common now.

Durant's defense is better but when you look at the fact he doesn't have to do as much on offense or even on defense it allows him to play a free game. When he was on the Thunder as the main man he crumbled many times on both ends. Now he has defensive teammates like Green, AI and offensive teammates like Curry, Thompson to lean on. Durant can literally take plays off throughout the game and rest. Lebron def without Thomas cannot do that. Most stars can't because nobodies loaded like the Warriors.

Could you image Lebron on the warriors? LMAO! he would play PG and avg prob near 15-18 assists no joke. Lebron would be fresh on defense. Thats what you are not understanding here. Durant Went to the Warriors because it was easier. Lebron went to the Heat because it was easier (although not nearly as easy as the warriors, Heat only had 3 guys and an old Allen, not much of a bench. Warriors have 4 guys and a very good bench).

Durant does not see double teams like he use too. lebron is #1 in the NBA on assists to 3pt shooters because EVERYONE runs at Lebron when he drives. put Durant on the Cavs and Lebron on Warriors. I wonder what u would be saying right now. lol.

nastynice
12-29-2017, 01:46 PM
Because of one game? I know Durant had that big shot in the finals last year (game 5 if u consider that a big shot). But Lebron avg a triple double lol. They both played great but don't ever forget who Lebron is. You can hate him all you want but don't disrespect a mans game. I get you are a KD fan, but common now.

Durant's defense is better but when you look at the fact he doesn't have to do as much on offense or even on defense it allows him to play a free game. When he was on the Thunder as the main man he crumbled many times on both ends. Now he has defensive teammates like Green, AI and offensive teammates like Curry, Thompson to lean on. Durant can literally take plays off throughout the game and rest. Lebron def without Thomas cannot do that. Most stars can't because nobodies loaded like the Warriors.

Could you image Lebron on the warriors? LMAO! he would play PG and avg prob near 15-18 assists no joke. Lebron would be fresh on defense. Thats what you are not understanding here. Durant Went to the Warriors because it was easier. Lebron went to the Heat because it was easier (although not nearly as easy as the warriors, Heat only had 3 guys and an old Allen, not much of a bench. Warriors have 4 guys and a very good bench).

Durant does not see double teams like he use too. lebron is #1 in the NBA on assists to 3pt shooters because EVERYONE runs at Lebron when he drives. put Durant on the Cavs and Lebron on Warriors. I wonder what u would be saying right now. lol.

Itís not just one game, itís the finals last year too. 1 on 1, kd ***** on lebron, offensively, defensively, and if there were special teams Iím pretty sure that too :)

Just watch the games. I donít even have to make an argument. Just watch them. Everythingís on film

Itís nothing to get upset over. Iím not saying kd is a higher all time rank, Iím just saying, right here right now, kd is clearly the superior player when matched up 1 on 1

prodigy
12-29-2017, 01:54 PM
Itís not just one game, itís the finals last year too. 1 on 1, kd ***** on lebron, offensively, defensively, and if there were special teams Iím pretty sure that too :)

1 on 1? dang i though it was a 5 on 5 game. very little is 1 on 1. u have screens, switches, bumps etc... Only way u can talk about players 1 on 1 is if you watch them on a playground somewhere. Lebron covers Curry a lot also. then switches onto Durant.


Just watch the games. I donít even have to make an argument. Just watch them. Everythingís on film Itís nothing to get upset over. Iím not saying kd is a higher all time rank, Iím just saying, right here right now, kd is clearly the superior player when matched up 1 on 1

So you agree with everything i said? If not i would like to debate. this is a debate forum. O im not upset, Neither LeBron or KD pay my bills lol.

Scoots
12-29-2017, 03:05 PM
LeBron dominates a game like no other player. KD is superior in some skills (shooting, shot blocking, being a team player), but all-around LeBron is the best player.

nastynice
12-29-2017, 03:21 PM
1 on 1? dang i though it was a 5 on 5 game. very little is 1 on 1. u have screens, switches, bumps etc... Only way u can talk about players 1 on 1 is if you watch them on a playground somewhere. Lebron covers Curry a lot also. then switches onto Durant.



So you agree with everything i said? If not i would like to debate. this is a debate forum. O im not upset, Neither LeBron or KD pay my bills lol.

I didn't say basketball was 1 on 1, I said KD is the better player in 1 on 1 situations.

debate away friend...

lol, please
12-29-2017, 03:24 PM
I didn't say basketball was 1 on 1, I said KD is the better player in 1 on 1 situations.

debate away friend...I'll take Durant over LeChoke any day of the week and twice on Sundays, thank you very much.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Vee-Rex
12-29-2017, 03:48 PM
Yea, but now kd has more experience too, so that coupled with his physical length just makes him so much better one on one. Heís superior on both sides of the ball, itís pretty clear

Kd wants to make it 1 on 1. Lebron wants to make it a team game, he canít handle kd 1 on 1 on either side of the court. I guess thatís the whole chess part of basketball

With curry it was opposite, lebron wanted to make it 1 on 1 and curry wanted to make it team

Eh, I think if you swapped Durant with LeBron, you'd see Durant shying away from the one on one battle since he'd have the entire team's weight on his shoulders. Whereas if LeBron ONLY had to focus on defense and provide scoring when he was open, he'd shine too.

A 33 year old LeBron > 29 year old Kevin Durant still. One is top 3 all time and arguably GOAT, the other will never reach those heights.

Let that sink in. :clap:

BKLYNpigeon
12-29-2017, 04:13 PM
Talent wise Lebrons probably better.

If I were building a team id much rather have KD. He can play off the ball much better.
The warriors have really opened up KD's game. he's a complete player now and scoring at a ridiculous efficiency.

Vee-Rex
12-29-2017, 04:49 PM
Durant has not been ridiculously efficient without playing next to Curry. In the last 10 games:

46.9%FG, 35.1%3pt, and 59.7%TS

1.86 A/TO ratio

Not horrible by any means, but not sure I'm supposed to drink his bathwater because of those numbers either. And even if you look at his efficiency for the season it doesn't really compare to LeBron's.

KD is a superstar top 2-4 player without a doubt, but I'm not really blown away by his performance this year considering he's playing on a 73-win team that would be favorites to win without him.

Hopper15
12-29-2017, 05:18 PM
Durant has not been ridiculously efficient without playing next to Curry. In the last 10 games:

46.9%FG, 35.1%3pt, and 59.7%TS

1.86 A/TO ratio

Not horrible by any means, but not sure I'm supposed to drink his bathwater because of those numbers either. And even if you look at his efficiency for the season it doesn't really compare to LeBron's.

KD is a superstar top 2-4 player without a doubt, but I'm not really blown away by his performance this year considering he's playing on a 73-win team that would be favorites to win without him.

You may not be blown away with KD but Koby Altman is singing a different tune. Part of the reason he acquired Green and Crowder because he knows Lebron only has so much energy to defend KD.

Vee-Rex
12-29-2017, 05:50 PM
You may not be blown away with KD but Koby Altman is singing a different tune. Part of the reason he acquired Green and Crowder because he knows Lebron only has so much energy to defend KD.

You seem to misunderstand what I meant by saying I wasn't "blown away".

Bowman53
12-29-2017, 06:00 PM
Durant has not been ridiculously efficient without playing next to Curry. In the last 10 games:

46.9%FG, 35.1%3pt, and 59.7%TS

1.86 A/TO ratio

Not horrible by any means, but not sure I'm supposed to drink his bathwater because of those numbers either. And even if you look at his efficiency for the season it doesn't really compare to LeBron's.

KD is a superstar top 2-4 player without a doubt, but I'm not really blown away by his performance this year considering he's playing on a 73-win team that would be favorites to win without him.

I'm even less blown away with this post. The sample size is too small.

nastynice
12-29-2017, 06:26 PM
Eh, I think if you swapped Durant with LeBron, you'd see Durant shying away from the one on one battle since he'd have the entire team's weight on his shoulders. Whereas if LeBron ONLY had to focus on defense and provide scoring when he was open, he'd shine too.

A 33 year old LeBron > 29 year old Kevin Durant still. One is top 3 all time and arguably GOAT, the other will never reach those heights.

Let that sink in. :clap:

If you swapped durant with lebron, curry would be overrated and undersized, klay is streaky and unreliable, green is just a product of the system, iggy is too old, livingston is still crippled, swaggy p is a chucker, javale mcgee is shaqtin, etc etc. Lebron doesn't fit on this team. KD does. Doesn't make him better, its just that his style of play is perfect for our system. Lebron's style is the exact thing we want to avoid.

I'm not sure what the score when he's open thing is, but lebron came out to guard kd plenty of times and got smoked damn near every time. Even the bricks, kd gets the shots he wants, they just don't drop.

In the big picture of course lebron is on another level. He's been the face of the league for almost a decade, he's made 7 straight finals, he's been in the jordan conversation for about 5-7 years now, etc etc. But in 2017, man vs man, its kd, and it honestly isn't very close.

Lebron is so good right now because of his iq, and how he plays team ball, plus also the best passer in the league. Really its mainly the iq, I don't think I've ever seen another player with that high a bball iq. But one on one, that stuff is very minimized, one on one, its kd's world :nod:

There's nothing to sink in, diff players excel at diff things, I'm just hyping up the category kd's superior in. And that's one on one out by the 3 pt line. He can score from anywhere, he can pretty much get off any shot he wants, lebron ain't slowing none of that down.

nastynice
12-29-2017, 06:29 PM
You may not be blown away with KD but Koby Altman is singing a different tune. Part of the reason he acquired Green and Crowder because he knows Lebron only has so much energy to defend KD.

Yup, warriors need to run kd off screens more until he gets lebron on him, and just keep attacking like that. Same way cavs did vs curry

Vee-Rex
12-29-2017, 06:41 PM
If you swapped durant with lebron, curry would be overrated and undersized, klay is streaky and unreliable, green is just a product of the system, iggy is too old, livingston is still crippled, swaggy p is a chucker, javale mcgee is shaqtin, etc etc. Lebron doesn't fit on this team. KD does. Doesn't make him better, its just that his style of play is perfect for our system. Lebron's style is the exact thing we want to avoid.

I'm not sure what the score when he's open thing is, but lebron came out to guard kd plenty of times and got smoked damn near every time. Even the bricks, kd gets the shots he wants, they just don't drop.

In the big picture of course lebron is on another level. He's been the face of the league for almost a decade, he's made 7 straight finals, he's been in the jordan conversation for about 5-7 years now, etc etc. But in 2017, man vs man, its kd, and it honestly isn't very close.

Lebron is so good right now because of his iq, and how he plays team ball, plus also the best passer in the league. Really its mainly the iq, I don't think I've ever seen another player with that high a bball iq. But one on one, that stuff is very minimized, one on one, its kd's world :nod:

There's nothing to sink in, diff players excel at diff things, I'm just hyping up the category kd's superior in. And that's one on one out by the 3 pt line. He can score from anywhere, he can pretty much get off any shot he wants, lebron ain't slowing none of that down.

Kyrie could arguably beat Curry one-on-one.

You're not really saying much no matter how much text you wanna throw up.

LeBron > KD - end of story.

nastynice
12-29-2017, 06:58 PM
Kyrie could arguably beat Curry one-on-one.

You're not really saying much no matter how much text you wanna throw up.

LeBron > KD - end of story.

maybe, I don't know, which way the arrow points makes no diff to me. What I do know is KD is clearly owning lebron over and over and over again, on offense and on defense and there's not a single person who can deny it. Who wears the crown when sitting on their couch at home, I don't know, but when those two are on the court together its KD's crown (Ok, maybe not YET. But if he does what he's done over the past 6 matchups in another playoff series, then he DEFINITELY does)

Even tho he ain't even the best player on the dubs, curry is, lol. This past month should have made it obvious. Oh no wait, everyone's probably just looking at the win loss record, my bad, nevermind... :smoking:

*and yes, kyrie very much so arguably could beat curry one on one. He might even be favored, I'm not sure. This season is showing just how much help lebron really had in cleveland, but again, boston moves the ball, cleveland plays iso.

BKLYNpigeon
12-29-2017, 07:15 PM
Kyrie could arguably beat Curry one-on-one.

You're not really saying much no matter how much text you wanna throw up.

LeBron > KD - end of story.


On Talent sure.

but you have to take all that good with the bad.

Lebron will stranglehold your franchise.
influence your front office
make you overpay his friends (Tristian, Shump, JR)
sign short term deals to wield his power

Then he leaves you in 4 years and your franchise is in shambles.

nastynice
12-29-2017, 07:24 PM
On Talent sure.

but you have to take all that good with the bad.

Lebron will stranglehold your franchise.
influence your front office
make you overpay his friends (Tristian, Shump, JR)
sign short term deals to wield his power

Then he leaves you in 4 years and your franchise is in shambles.

I don't know who's call this truly was, but this was the major **** up in cleveland. It shouldn't be him shopping teams, it should be the cavs shopping players. He's lebron ****in james, everyone should be tryina go there. But you make some ridiculous signings like that, damn, cripples the cap

BKLYNpigeon
12-29-2017, 07:38 PM
I don't know who's call this truly was, but this was the major **** up in cleveland. It shouldn't be him shopping teams, it should be the cavs shopping players. He's lebron ****in james, everyone should be tryina go there. But you make some ridiculous signings like that, damn, cripples the cap

Well Tristian and JR are with Klutch Sports. conflict of interest if you ask me.

lol, please
12-29-2017, 09:44 PM
Eh, I think if you swapped Durant with LeBron, you'd see Durant shying away from the one on one battle since he'd have the entire team's weight on his shoulders. Whereas if LeBron ONLY had to focus on defense and provide scoring when he was open, he'd shine too.

A 33 year old LeBron > 29 year old Kevin Durant still. One is top 3 all time and arguably GOAT, the other will never reach those heights.

Let that sink in. :clap:Wait...do you come to us from the future? You don't know where either end up with certainty all time, especially when neither career is over.

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lol, please
12-29-2017, 09:46 PM
Kyrie could arguably beat Curry one-on-one.

You're not really saying much no matter how much text you wanna throw up.

LeBron > KD - end of story.@Ewing looks like I didn't have to go digging up old posts, we found one of the peeps who thinks Kyrie > Curry right here



[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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Vee-Rex
12-29-2017, 11:54 PM
If Durant > LeBron because of one-on-one matchups, then Kyrie > Steph.

Got it! :laugh2:

prodigy
12-30-2017, 11:36 AM
Eh, I think if you swapped Durant with LeBron, you'd see Durant shying away from the one on one battle since he'd have the entire team's weight on his shoulders. Whereas if LeBron ONLY had to focus on defense and provide scoring when he was open, he'd shine too.

A 33 year old LeBron > 29 year old Kevin Durant still. One is top 3 all time and arguably GOAT, the other will never reach those heights.

Let that sink in. :clap:

this, people aren't understanding the free roam Durant has. If Lebron could just platy free ball his defense and everything would be better.

prodigy
12-30-2017, 11:38 AM
Durant has not been ridiculously efficient without playing next to Curry. In the last 10 games:

46.9%FG, 35.1%3pt, and 59.7%TS

1.86 A/TO ratio

Not horrible by any means, but not sure I'm supposed to drink his bathwater because of those numbers either. And even if you look at his efficiency for the season it doesn't really compare to LeBron's.

KD is a superstar top 2-4 player without a doubt, but I'm not really blown away by his performance this year considering he's playing on a 73-win team that would be favorites to win without him.

:clap:

prodigy
12-30-2017, 11:53 AM
Yup, warriors need to run kd off screens more until he gets lebron on him, and just keep attacking like that. Same way cavs did vs curry

If Lebron does not have to chase Curry through 100 screens anymore he will happily take Durant. Lets See Durant chase Thomas around half the game on defense, HAVE to score 30+, rebound and pass at a high rate o ya ur getting doubled and triple teamed the whole time. Then late in the game you gotta switch on to a pretty fresh Lebron. Lets see what Durant does.

People don't look at these things. i get you guys are Warrior fans so ur gonna pick Durant, im a cavs fan ill go with Lebron although even when he left Cleveland i called him names, But i never doubted that mans skills.

To say Lebron wouldn't fit on the Warriors is very strange. Entitled to ur opinion but Curry and Thompson are great 3pt shooters who lebron would feed for days. Both those guys would see less coverage because everyone worries about Lebron when he drives. (other than Officials lol)

LeBron can and has played off ball. Its just dumb to take the ball out of his hands. Durant is def not more efficient then Lebron. Thats just a wrong statement. Durant is better at blocking shots but Lebron is no Bum either. He does not roam around on defense like Durant does, so those help blocks that Durant gets a lot of don't happen for lebron. Lebron is also better at getting steals and playing the passing lanes.

tredigs
12-30-2017, 12:10 PM
So now that Curry is set to return, we can look at this sample size (granted small) for their play without him (missing other players here and there as well so there's extra noise in the numbers). Just saw half these stats on the Warriors broadcast so they're fresh.

Went 9-2 (so the mid 60 win pace they're accustomed to on the surface), but their margin of went from +11 to +5.5 (bear in mind 8 of the 11 teams were sub .500 and the majority were played at home... their easiest stretch of the year), their offense went from averaging 117 ppg to 105 ppg, and their 3pt shooting went from averaging 40% from 3 to 33%.

Ipso facto, that's no longer the dominant Warriors. They're a great defensive team and a slightly above middling offense without him. Would prob win in the high 50's and fall short in the WCF's.

nastynice
12-30-2017, 12:20 PM
If Lebron does not have to chase Curry through 100 screens anymore he will happily take Durant. Lets See Durant chase Thomas around half the game on defense, HAVE to score 30+, rebound and pass at a high rate o ya ur getting doubled and triple teamed the whole time. Then late in the game you gotta switch on to a pretty fresh Lebron. Lets see what Durant does.

People don't look at these things. i get you guys are Warrior fans so ur gonna pick Durant, im a cavs fan ill go with Lebron although even when he left Cleveland i called him names, But i never doubted that mans skills.

To say Lebron wouldn't fit on the Warriors is very strange. Entitled to ur opinion but Curry and Thompson are great 3pt shooters who lebron would feed for days. Both those guys would see less coverage because everyone worries about Lebron when he drives. (other than Officials lol)

LeBron can and has played off ball. Its just dumb to take the ball out of his hands. Durant is def not more efficient then Lebron. Thats just a wrong statement. Durant is better at blocking shots but Lebron is no Bum either. He does not roam around on defense like Durant does, so those help blocks that Durant gets a lot of don't happen for lebron. Lebron is also better at getting steals and playing the passing lanes.

Whoa is me LeBron, whoa is me! lol

Durant roams on defense, wtf??

At most times he is our main rim protector (with green), I don't know what this roaming bs is. Also, part of it is LeBron fear of getting posterized, he has plenty of opportunities to play help defense but usually he yells at his teammates rather than sliding over and possibly getting dunked on. If ur a cavs fan then there's no doubt you know what I'm talking about

Also if kd been seeking out LeBron all game and staying pretty fresh, I don't know what you expect Thomas to do. Kd is just the better iso player, that's all there is to it

Chronz
12-30-2017, 01:24 PM
Eh, I think if you swapped Durant with LeBron, you'd see Durant shying away from the one on one battle since he'd have the entire team's weight on his shoulders. Whereas if LeBron ONLY had to focus on defense and provide scoring when he was open, he'd shine too.

A 33 year old LeBron > 29 year old Kevin Durant still. One is top 3 all time and arguably GOAT, the other will never reach those heights.

Let that sink in. :clap:

I remember thinking years back that kd should have surpassed Bron by now but it might take alil longer than I originally thought.

lol, please
12-30-2017, 01:32 PM
I remember thinking years back that kd should have surpassed Bron by now but it might take alil longer than I originally thought.Why?

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mngopher35
12-30-2017, 02:55 PM
So now that Curry is set to return, we can look at this sample size (granted small) for their play without him (missing other players here and there as well so there's extra noise in the numbers). Just saw half these stats on the Warriors broadcast so they're fresh.

Went 9-2 (so the mid 60 win pace they're accustomed to on the surface), but their margin of went from +11 to +5.5 (bear in mind 8 of the 11 teams were sub .500 and the majority were played at home... their easiest stretch of the year), their offense went from averaging 117 ppg to 105 ppg, and their 3pt shooting went from averaging 40% from 3 to 33%.

Ipso facto, that's no longer the dominant Warriors. They're a great defensive team and a slightly above middling offense without him. Would prob win in the high 50's and fall short in the WCF's.

So with Curry they are winning at a lower percentage (.76 to .82 without him) but with a higher margin? This is with removing the "engine" on the fly and the team adjusting. I believe they likely had a similar win % without Durant last season as well.

I just don't think this says much other than what has been pointed out before that this team is capable of losing a top player and still being arguably the best, at least in that tier. I would actually agree with you that without Curry they don't win it all as Durant likely falls of big time come playoffs with pressure. I just think this sample kinda helped show how good they really are even without him (obviously better with him but not taking them out of top team discussion).

prodigy
12-30-2017, 03:17 PM
Whoa is me LeBron, whoa is me! lol

Durant roams on defense, wtf??

At most times he is our main rim protector (with green), I don't know what this roaming bs is. Also, part of it is LeBron fear of getting posterized, he has plenty of opportunities to play help defense but usually he yells at his teammates rather than sliding over and possibly getting dunked on. If ur a cavs fan then there's no doubt you know what I'm talking about

Also if kd been seeking out LeBron all game and staying pretty fresh, I don't know what you expect Thomas to do. Kd is just the better iso player, that's all there is to it

Durant doesn't always check the best offensive players. from time to time yes but Klay, Green, AI do also. So u can stick Durant on a lesser talent and let him drift inside to help protect the paint. With his length he can always close out well also. Thats just smart defensive sets. Steve Kerr is a good coach and he runs that. Thats what i mean.

Every single player fears getting dunked on including ur boy KD. Not sure how this factors into anything though. Lebron has covered some of the best big men in the game and wrecked them this season. Griffin for one. Then few games later shut down Schroder from the Hawks when he was speeding by us. Thats the beauty of lebron.

Thats not true.

prodigy
12-30-2017, 03:18 PM
Why?

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Because Lebron can carry teams to the finals and Durant had to join a 73 win team.

nastynice
12-30-2017, 03:38 PM
Durant doesn't always check the best offensive players. from time to time yes but Klay, Green, AI do also. So u can stick Durant on a lesser talent and let him drift inside to help protect the paint. With his length he can always close out well also. Thats just smart defensive sets. Steve Kerr is a good coach and he runs that. Thats what i mean.

Every single player fears getting dunked on including ur boy KD. Not sure how this factors into anything though. Lebron has covered some of the best big men in the game and wrecked them this season. Griffin for one. Then few games later shut down Schroder from the Hawks when he was speeding by us. Thats the beauty of lebron.

Thats not true.

you really don't think kd is the better iso player? lol, cmon man

It factors into things because the way kd slides over and plays help defense, lebron has the same opportunity, the fact that he doesn't take it is his own fault.

Lebron don't always check the best offensive player. Why you think they got crowder and green. He's just not the same caliber rim protector as kd. He's called Durantula for a reason, haha

mngopher35
12-30-2017, 04:07 PM
you really don't think kd is the better iso player? lol, cmon man

It factors into things because the way kd slides over and plays help defense, lebron has the same opportunity, the fact that he doesn't take it is his own fault.

Lebron don't always check the best offensive player. Why you think they got crowder and green. He's just not the same caliber rim protector as kd. He's called Durantula for a reason, haha

Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.

lol, please
12-30-2017, 04:40 PM
Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.A great player in a great system isn't less great because the system makes it easier for the player.

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mngopher35
12-30-2017, 04:47 PM
A great player in a great system isn't less great because the system makes it easier for the player.

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I am not saying Durant isn't great, I am pointing out how all of those factors are currently giving him a boost in comparison to others. It is obvious and even brought up at times in other threads when Curry is being discussed but ignored by many when it comes to Durant.

When Durant was not surrounded by this insane talent he was not this effective. The situation didn't change Durant as a player it just allowed him far easier opportunities. He still is like the 3rd or 4th best player in the NBA just like before he joined GS.

Vee-Rex
12-30-2017, 05:12 PM
Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.

Wow, I think he might need some vaseline after this post. :laugh2:

Well said.

nastynice
12-30-2017, 05:59 PM
Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.

Look, I see those two on the court together, when iso'd one is capable of defending the other, one is not. That's all that matters. They've iso'd up plenty of times

I'll give you the stats bro, the stats say lebron's a better 3 pt shooter than curry, and if that's what you think then great. I'm watching the game, that's what I'm basing it off of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VHNnl-yU4

This is lebron vs kd christmas (they got the similar vids for the finals too). KD's not getting his blocks as a roamer. Lebron's not seeing double teams unless he's driving in the lane, which c'mon, EVERYONE'S gonna see help come if driving in the lane. If you guys watch that video and think one player has some kind of suffocating defense he has to deal with and the other just gets to roam free, then we're just seeing different things here. If anything, the help seems to flash to durant quicker and in more numbers.

Everyone's tryina make up a million excuses as to why its this or why its that, and maybe you're right, maybe the stats mean you're right, maybe lebron goes from cellar dweller to cellar dweller and makes them mighty, but I know when we WATCH we're all seeing the same thing here.

I get that durant's on a better team with a better system, and is leaned on less. Doesn't change the fact that he is starting to now consistently outplay lebron, especially when they're on each other.

tredigs
12-30-2017, 06:01 PM
So with Curry they are winning at a lower percentage (.76 to .82 without him) but with a higher margin? This is with removing the "engine" on the fly and the team adjusting. I believe they likely had a similar win % without Durant last season as well.

I just don't think this says much other than what has been pointed out before that this team is capable of losing a top player and still being arguably the best, at least in that tier. I would actually agree with you that without Curry they don't win it all as Durant likely falls of big time come playoffs with pressure. I just think this sample kinda helped show how good they really are even without him (obviously better with him but not taking them out of top team discussion).
Offense went from on pace to be the best in history to 14th in the league in the games He missed. It's a massive chasm. Easy schedule allowed for a sustained record despite the 130% dip in their margin of victory. They would not win it all without him.

mngopher35
12-30-2017, 08:23 PM
So with Curry they are winning at a lower percentage (.76 to .82 without him) but with a higher margin? This is with removing the "engine" on the fly and the team adjusting. I believe they likely had a similar win % without Durant last season as well.

I just don't think this says much other than what has been pointed out before that this team is capable of losing a top player and still being arguably the best, at least in that tier. I would actually agree with you that without Curry they don't win it all as Durant likely falls of big time come playoffs with pressure. I just think this sample kinda helped show how good they really are even without him (obviously better with him but not taking them out of top team discussion).
Offense went from on pace to be the best in history to 14th in the league in the games He missed. It's a massive chasm. Easy schedule allowed for a sustained record despite the 130% dip in their margin of victory. They would not win it all without him.

I agree there is a clear drop off but again I think it's clearly a drop off from far away better than everyone into the top tier of teams like I mentioned. It's a small sample where the ratings and point differential say clearly worse but actual record has improved. So they are worse in some areas but better at winning games (again very small sample of course).

Do you think this team is only middle of the pack offensively without curry? Just curious.

tredigs
12-30-2017, 08:40 PM
I agree there is a clear drop off but again I think it's clearly a drop off from far away better than everyone into the top tier of teams like I mentioned. It's a small sample where the ratings and point differential say clearly worse but actual record has improved. So they are worse in some areas but better at winning games (again very small sample of course).

Do you think this team is only middle of the pack offensively without curry? Just curious.
But again, most of them were home games and 8 of the 11 sub .500 teams (one of the + .500 being the Pistons, who were mid spiral). Just a stretch that any winning club will easily crush. Without Curry (via on/off over the years) we have very little evidence that points to them being slightly above middling offensively, and this stretch was more of the same. They would improve with time and cohesion, but I would be surprised if they maintained a top 5 level O without him given all that I've seen over the years.

mngopher35
12-30-2017, 08:40 PM
Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.

Look, I see those two on the court together, when iso'd one is capable of defending the other, one is not. That's all that matters. They've iso'd up plenty of times

I'll give you the stats bro, the stats say lebron's a better 3 pt shooter than curry, and if that's what you think then great. I'm watching the game, that's what I'm basing it off of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9VHNnl-yU4

This is lebron vs kd christmas (they got the similar vids for the finals too). KD's not getting his blocks as a roamer. Lebron's not seeing double teams unless he's driving in the lane, which c'mon, EVERYONE'S gonna see help come if driving in the lane. If you guys watch that video and think one player has some kind of suffocating defense he has to deal with and the other just gets to roam free, then we're just seeing different things here. If anything, the help seems to flash to durant quicker and in more numbers.

Everyone's tryina make up a million excuses as to why its this or why its that, and maybe you're right, maybe the stats mean you're right, maybe lebron goes from cellar dweller to cellar dweller and makes them mighty, but I know when we WATCH we're all seeing the same thing here.

I get that durant's on a better team with a better system, and is leaned on less. Doesn't change the fact that he is starting to now consistently outplay lebron, especially when they're on each other.

I will have to look at the YouTube videos later when not on phone but if it's a bunch of single clips from a couple big games I have probably watched them anyways (Christmas/finals). I am long past trusting any of your analysis based on your eyes.

Durant is playing better ONLY now once in perfect situation. That's what everyone but you seems to be able to see. Again look at any team he has ever been on without two studs (harden/westy or curry/klay) and a dpoy guy, I've covered his troubles before. I pointed out their actual numbers when playing ISO and you now are basically ignoring years of data on their ISO ability for a couple YouTube videos lol.

I fully agree he outplayed lebron at Christmas though if that's what you want haha, lebron looked real bad.

Vee-Rex
12-30-2017, 09:17 PM
Offense went from on pace to be the best in history to 14th in the league in the games He missed. It's a massive chasm. Easy schedule allowed for a sustained record despite the 130% dip in their margin of victory. They would not win it all without him.

I've been on the "KD is slightly > Steph" train but I'm really starting to think it might be the other way around. I mean it's close and no matter how much people wanna hate, KD is one of the best talents we've ever seen. But Steph is just crucial, man.

Imagine how Steph's stats would look if he was very selfish and looked to pad his stats on a less talented team.

lol, please
12-30-2017, 09:21 PM
I'm with gopher on this one, as impactful as Curry is, this team is so deep, the talent surrounding Durant and Klay, combined with the system and culture, this team would still be a top 2 team in the league imo, but the gap between the Warriors and the rest of the league disappears.

Not sure what to make of the sample size to be honest, to me it's still too small, and it would make sense to factor in the fact that they would likely gel as the season progressed (look at OKC as the latest example of a team with talent that hasn't fully figured it out).

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nastynice
12-30-2017, 11:14 PM
I will have to look at the YouTube videos later when not on phone but if it's a bunch of single clips from a couple big games I have probably watched them anyways (Christmas/finals). I am long past trusting any of your analysis based on your eyes.

Durant is playing better ONLY now once in perfect situation. That's what everyone but you seems to be able to see. Again look at any team he has ever been on without two studs (harden/westy or curry/klay) and a dpoy guy, I've covered his troubles before. I pointed out their actual numbers when playing ISO and you now are basically ignoring years of data on their ISO ability for a couple YouTube videos lol.

I fully agree he outplayed lebron at Christmas though if that's what you want haha, lebron looked real bad.

Its not that I'm ignoring data for youtube videos, I'm ignoring the data because anyone who watches the game knows kd is the better iso player. If I can see it, why would I care what the data says? If you're gonna tell me data over eye test, then I'm gonna ask you whos the better 3 pt shooter between lebron and curry. I feel like deep down you gotta know I'm right, I mean its too obvious, isn't it?

Anyways, the video mostly highlights all this fabricated stuff about lebron having the entire defense on him, or whatever other stuff people are coming up with. KD is seeing just as many defenders if not more when he's got the ball.

mngopher35
12-30-2017, 11:38 PM
But again, most of them were home games and 8 of the 11 sub .500 teams (one of the + .500 being the Pistons, who were mid spiral). Just a stretch that any winning club will easily crush. Without Curry (via on/off over the years) we have very little evidence that points to them being slightly above middling offensively, and this stretch was more of the same. They would improve with time and cohesion, but I would be surprised if they maintained a top 5 level O without him given all that I've seen over the years.

Ya and it was also an on the fly change adjusting to the loss of the "offensive engine". I agree they likely wouldn't be top 5 offense though so let me just kinda reword things because maybe we are on a similar page. I think Klay/Durant/Green is enough for a top 10 offense though with this system/role players and their own talent.

I think Curry is the best/most important player and I don't disagree that some numbers have pointed to this before. This very small sample however is more of mixed results to me given that they also won games at a high rate and the drop off was still pretty high compared to league. It doesn't mean Curry isn't important but I think if it shows anything it would be that even without Curry this is still a top team. That's what I was getting at from this sample, it is a drop off because Curry is the best/most important player (although these numbers alone wouldn't mean too much for that imo) but they are still at/near the top.

Even at a point differential of 5.5 I believe that is 3rd in the league right now behind Rockets/Raptors. Record wise that is over and .80 win % and would be top of the league. So even with this huge drop off on offense without Curry we are still talking about a top 3 type team (aka a contender with Rockets/Spurs/Cavs like I pointed out). Maybe they don't win but the point is they are in this range of teams imo even without Curry so it is very possible.

lol, please
12-30-2017, 11:44 PM
^ agree with that

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mngopher35
12-30-2017, 11:59 PM
Its not that I'm ignoring data for youtube videos, I'm ignoring the data because anyone who watches the game knows kd is the better iso player. If I can see it, why would I care what the data says? If you're gonna tell me data over eye test, then I'm gonna ask you whos the better 3 pt shooter between lebron and curry. I feel like deep down you gotta know I'm right, I mean its too obvious, isn't it?

Anyways, the video mostly highlights all this fabricated stuff about lebron having the entire defense on him, or whatever other stuff people are coming up with. KD is seeing just as many defenders if not more when he's got the ball.

You are ignoring them and it is 100% based on your own biased eyes it would appear (everyone obviously does not know/see that since you are getting responses questioning and pointing out context time and time again). I know that I have seen KD regularly struggle when asked to create for himself to a large extent and I think the last time he wasn't on GS is a good example of that. I think everyone can see that he only really excelled in these comparisons once he had this cast/talent around him. It's not only the actual ISO #'s going against you here it is his entire game and how it is being boosted due to the surroundings. All of his numbers were dropping off in the playoffs without a championship caliber before him supporting cast for years. Even before last season myself (and I believe even warrior fans like Tre) were predicting that despite Curry being the better player KD would win FMVP due to the way teams play them and his situation. It is easy to see and was predictable before it happened but you just don't seem to be on the same page when watching as us I guess.

Curry is the better shooter and it is because we have long seen him be the better shooter throughout their career. A small sample in general or via youtube videos will not change the overwhelming numbers in the long term. This is the exact same approach I take when looking at KD/Lebron. Lebron was better before KD came to GS. He has better numbers even still despite the major help for Durant.

Now in general KD 1. Is not the offensive engine or creator for his team 2. Is not the best offensive or defensive player for his team 3. Is not the focal points of the defense mostly given 1/2 4. Is now surrounded by the best talent in the NBA not only for winning but via the combination of spacing, passing, defense etc. which all will help him throughout games. All of these differences matter and will end up taking pressure off you individually and give you better opportunities/chances throughout the game and keeping you completely fresh (kinda same as no pressure I guess). With all of that KD in general has not been a better iso player than Lebron but has won some individual matchups of ISO play. I can agree with that.

nastynice
12-31-2017, 02:54 AM
You are ignoring them and it is 100% based on your own biased eyes it would appear (everyone obviously does not know/see that since you are getting responses questioning and pointing out context time and time again). I know that I have seen KD regularly struggle when asked to create for himself to a large extent and I think the last time he wasn't on GS is a good example of that. I think everyone can see that he only really excelled in these comparisons once he had this cast/talent around him. It's not only the actual ISO #'s going against you here it is his entire game and how it is being boosted due to the surroundings. All of his numbers were dropping off in the playoffs without a championship caliber before him supporting cast for years. Even before last season myself (and I believe even warrior fans like Tre) were predicting that despite Curry being the better player KD would win FMVP due to the way teams play them and his situation. It is easy to see and was predictable before it happened but you just don't seem to be on the same page when watching as us I guess.

Curry is the better shooter and it is because we have long seen him be the better shooter throughout their career. A small sample in general or via youtube videos will not change the overwhelming numbers in the long term. This is the exact same approach I take when looking at KD/Lebron. Lebron was better before KD came to GS. He has better numbers even still despite the major help for Durant.

Now in general KD 1. Is not the offensive engine or creator for his team 2. Is not the best offensive or defensive player for his team 3. Is not the focal points of the defense mostly given 1/2 4. Is now surrounded by the best talent in the NBA not only for winning but via the combination of spacing, passing, defense etc. which all will help him throughout games. All of these differences matter and will end up taking pressure off you individually and give you better opportunities/chances throughout the game and keeping you completely fresh (kinda same as no pressure I guess). With all of that KD in general has not been a better iso player than Lebron but has won some individual matchups of ISO play. I can agree with that.

Dubs are stacked, no doubt, it opens things up for him in general, definitely. But let's say what you can agree with is that KD has won not some, but majority of individual iso matches with lebron since last year :)

No forget career, just THIS year, who's the better 3 pt shooter this season? I get the whole percentage argument, but what stat is showing one taking his shots off the dribble, from 33ft, quickest release in the game (maybe second to klay), catch and shoot from ANYWHERE on the arc? Don't matter the 3 pt percentage, THIS SEASON curry's the better shooter, watch the game and its obvious

Same way, I appreciate your stats, I don't mean to just blindly brush them aside, but KD is basically unstoppable. The man can legitimately get off any shot that he wants from any part of the court that he wants. As a defender, what can you really do? Hope the shot don't drop..? On top of that he clearly bothers lebron defensively. Doesn't stop him, no one can, but clearly slows him down. That makes more sense to me than stats

I know lebron has a way bigger workload, but his game kinda demands it...

lol, please
12-31-2017, 03:04 AM
Dubs are stacked, no doubt, it opens things up for him in general, definitely. But let's say what you can agree with is that KD has won not some, but majority of individual iso matches with lebron since last year :)

No forget career, just THIS year, who's the better 3 pt shooter this season? I get the whole percentage argument, but what stat is showing one taking his shots off the dribble, from 33ft, quickest release in the game (maybe second to klay), catch and shoot from ANYWHERE on the arc? Don't matter the 3 pt percentage, THIS SEASON curry's the better shooter, watch the game and its obvious

Same way, I appreciate your stats, I don't mean to just blindly brush them aside, but KD is basically unstoppable. The man can legitimately get off any shot that he wants from any part of the court that he wants. As a defender, what can you really do? Hope the shot don't drop..? On top of that he clearly bothers lebron defensively. Doesn't stop him, no one can, but clearly slows him down. That makes more sense to me than stats

I know lebron has a way bigger workload, but his game kinda demands it...Dubs aren't stacked...their stacked AF, what happened to my dude nastynice you used to go hard!

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mngopher35
12-31-2017, 04:00 AM
Dubs are stacked, no doubt, it opens things up for him in general, definitely. But let's say what you can agree with is that KD has won not some, but majority of individual iso matches with lebron since last year :)

No forget career, just THIS year, who's the better 3 pt shooter this season? I get the whole percentage argument, but what stat is showing one taking his shots off the dribble, from 33ft, quickest release in the game (maybe second to klay), catch and shoot from ANYWHERE on the arc? Don't matter the 3 pt percentage, THIS SEASON curry's the better shooter, watch the game and its obvious

Same way, I appreciate your stats, I don't mean to just blindly brush them aside, but KD is basically unstoppable. The man can legitimately get off any shot that he wants from any part of the court that he wants. As a defender, what can you really do? Hope the shot don't drop..? On top of that he clearly bothers lebron defensively. Doesn't stop him, no one can, but clearly slows him down. That makes more sense to me than stats

I know lebron has a way bigger workload, but his game kinda demands it...

Yes he has and the situation is what changed lol. That's the entire point you seem to keep missing is that it only changed in this situation on GS. Everyone knew things would be far easier and set him up for success just like they have (well I guess most). Durant is still a top 3-4 player I am not saying it isn't close and in fact I don't even think I have taken a side 100% on who is better ISO but I did point out the stats/context you were constantly ignoring to laugh it off like you were.

I just looked at the stats lol and guess what? The answer can easily still be Curry off even basic stats. You mentioned the eye test but another factor is actually volume (uh oh, is that using another stat for more context?). I get that Lebron has the better % but Curry is putting up like twice the amount of attempts per game almost. That is always an important factor because it's easier to put up shots in the flow of the game than it is to be creating (I think what you point out kinda falls under this, the how category which for sure matters too). If I am being honest i haven't watched a ton of either this year and Lebron has looked great but just with stats alone you still have an argument for Curry. I also am trying to say context always matters (like eye test, history etc).

You can just narrow things down as far as possible to ensure that there is only your own viewpoint like you try and do with Durant or you can just be open to looking at everything possible and coming to a rational conclusion (Curry is better at shooting, even if talking just this year). I mean if I say who is the best defender in the league then say nope he doesn't have the most steals this year it would sound pretty absurd trying to narrow things down to one small thing like that lol. I have used more than just one stat in a short season though in pointing out the history/context, years of stats and the one obvious change that happened which even before the finals had people predicting it beforehand. The overall look is what matters and it is what you keep trying to ignore whether it is Lebron vs. KD or the Curry thing with the shooting.

tredigs
12-31-2017, 09:27 AM
Ya and it was also an on the fly change adjusting to the loss of the "offensive engine". I agree they likely wouldn't be top 5 offense though so let me just kinda reword things because maybe we are on a similar page. I think Klay/Durant/Green is enough for a top 10 offense though with this system/role players and their own talent.

I think Curry is the best/most important player and I don't disagree that some numbers have pointed to this before. This very small sample however is more of mixed results to me given that they also won games at a high rate and the drop off was still pretty high compared to league. It doesn't mean Curry isn't important but I think if it shows anything it would be that even without Curry this is still a top team. That's what I was getting at from this sample, it is a drop off because Curry is the best/most important player (although these numbers alone wouldn't mean too much for that imo) but they are still at/near the top.

Even at a point differential of 5.5 I believe that is 3rd in the league right now behind Rockets/Raptors. Record wise that is over and .80 win % and would be top of the league. So even with this huge drop off on offense without Curry we are still talking about a top 3 type team (aka a contender with Rockets/Spurs/Cavs like I pointed out). Maybe they don't win but the point is they are in this range of teams imo even without Curry so it is very possible.

Yeah, if your contention is that without him they're still part of the mix of elite teams (with KD), that's correct. I get that they're on another level from the rest of the NBA at full strength. I've said it before, my hope from an NBA fan perspective was that KD joined Boston and offered a real challenge to Bron in the East for a change. The Warriors are OP with him. But, it happened. And the NBA as a whole is playing the best basketball I've ever seen right now. Part of that is in an attempt to catch the Warriors imo.

likemystylez
12-31-2017, 10:42 AM
I've been on the "KD is slightly > Steph" train but I'm really starting to think it might be the other way around. I mean it's close and no matter how much people wanna hate, KD is one of the best talents we've ever seen. But Steph is just crucial, man.

Imagine how Steph's stats would look if he was very selfish and looked to pad his stats on a less talented team.

Yeah, KD is the better player. He can do a lot more on both sides of the floor. Hes more consistently productive too. Where it gets kinda blurry is that when curry is at his best, hes a little bit better than kd at kds best. Also when curry is on the floor- the warriors system works a little better, and other players tend to play better.

Having said that- as a team.... when your trying to decide whos the better player on your team Curry or KD? LOL life is good

prodigy
12-31-2017, 11:15 AM
Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.

Damn... What this guy said. Great post.

tredigs
12-31-2017, 12:16 PM
Yeah, KD is the better player. He can do a lot more on both sides of the floor. Hes more consistently productive too. Where it gets kinda blurry is that when curry is at his best, hes a little bit better than kd at kds best. Also when curry is on the floor- the warriors system works a little better, and other players tend to play better.

Having said that- as a team.... when your trying to decide whos the better player on your team Curry or KD? LOL life is good

He can do a lot more on the defensive side of the floor, but Curry's offense (not only as an individual, but more so what it creates for the team) is levels above Durant. It's plain as day when you see the heights they play at with KD at the helm, and the heights they play at with Curry at the helm. Where KD would be the better player is in a game of 1 v 1 or 2 v 2. In the context of team basketball, Curry is without question the more valuable and potent piece. Agreed on that being a great problem to have.

mngopher35
12-31-2017, 12:23 PM
Ya and it was also an on the fly change adjusting to the loss of the "offensive engine". I agree they likely wouldn't be top 5 offense though so let me just kinda reword things because maybe we are on a similar page. I think Klay/Durant/Green is enough for a top 10 offense though with this system/role players and their own talent.

I think Curry is the best/most important player and I don't disagree that some numbers have pointed to this before. This very small sample however is more of mixed results to me given that they also won games at a high rate and the drop off was still pretty high compared to league. It doesn't mean Curry isn't important but I think if it shows anything it would be that even without Curry this is still a top team. That's what I was getting at from this sample, it is a drop off because Curry is the best/most important player (although these numbers alone wouldn't mean too much for that imo) but they are still at/near the top.

Even at a point differential of 5.5 I believe that is 3rd in the league right now behind Rockets/Raptors. Record wise that is over and .80 win % and would be top of the league. So even with this huge drop off on offense without Curry we are still talking about a top 3 type team (aka a contender with Rockets/Spurs/Cavs like I pointed out). Maybe they don't win but the point is they are in this range of teams imo even without Curry so it is very possible.

Yeah, if your contention is that without him they're still part of the mix of elite teams (with KD), that's correct. I get that they're on another level from the rest of the NBA at full strength. I've said it before, my hope from an NBA fan perspective was that KD joined Boston and offered a real challenge to Bron in the East for a change. The Warriors are OP with him. But, it happened. And the NBA as a whole is playing the best basketball I've ever seen right now. Part of that is in an attempt to catch the Warriors imo.

Oh ya I liked Boston too and I really wasn't trying to make it a big thing since I think many thought this beforehand.

I was really just getting at with such a small sample it is hard for me to take the point diff as major when they won games at a higher rate. Earlier this year twolves had a below 0 point diff but were above .500. I watched more of us play but it seemed clear while we weren't blowing teams out we had the talent (and that's why we still won even then before adjusting more to each other). I just got mixed views of Warriors play without curry given it was at the rate of a top team even with the point diff but had top level record.

nastynice
12-31-2017, 12:37 PM
Yes he has and the situation is what changed lol. That's the entire point you seem to keep missing is that it only changed in this situation on GS. Everyone knew things would be far easier and set him up for success just like they have (well I guess most). Durant is still a top 3-4 player I am not saying it isn't close and in fact I don't even think I have taken a side 100% on who is better ISO but I did point out the stats/context you were constantly ignoring to laugh it off like you were.

I just looked at the stats lol and guess what? The answer can easily still be Curry off even basic stats. You mentioned the eye test but another factor is actually volume (uh oh, is that using another stat for more context?). I get that Lebron has the better % but Curry is putting up like twice the amount of attempts per game almost. That is always an important factor because it's easier to put up shots in the flow of the game than it is to be creating (I think what you point out kinda falls under this, the how category which for sure matters too). If I am being honest i haven't watched a ton of either this year and Lebron has looked great but just with stats alone you still have an argument for Curry. I also am trying to say context always matters (like eye test, history etc).

You can just narrow things down as far as possible to ensure that there is only your own viewpoint like you try and do with Durant or you can just be open to looking at everything possible and coming to a rational conclusion (Curry is better at shooting, even if talking just this year). I mean if I say who is the best defender in the league then say nope he doesn't have the most steals this year it would sound pretty absurd trying to narrow things down to one small thing like that lol. I have used more than just one stat in a short season though in pointing out the history/context, years of stats and the one obvious change that happened which even before the finals had people predicting it beforehand. The overall look is what matters and it is what you keep trying to ignore whether it is Lebron vs. KD or the Curry thing with the shooting.

Iíll never argue kd over lebron overall career, I even pointed so myself earlier

But itís 2017 baby :smoking: thatís all that matters !

nastynice
12-31-2017, 12:38 PM
Dubs aren't stacked...their stacked AF, what happened to my dude nastynice you used to go hard!

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Iím slippin! lol

mngopher35
12-31-2017, 12:43 PM
(null)

I am not arguing career either. Right now curry is a better shooter just like lebron is the better player and arguably ISO. Context and past few years including this of stats is what I was adding to the discussion because you were blindly ignoring everything for your biased eyes.

nastynice
12-31-2017, 01:00 PM
I am not arguing career either. Right now curry is a better shooter just like lebron is the better player and arguably ISO. Context and past few years including this of stats is what I was adding to the discussion because you were blindly ignoring everything for your biased eyes.

True, but hereís the thing, Iíd ignore the stats even if they said otherwise and favored kd while it was lebron who was visually serving up kd for us to watch over and over again. Eye over stats, always

One Nut Kruk
12-31-2017, 02:46 PM
And the NBA as a whole is playing the best basketball I've ever seen right now. Part of that is in an attempt to catch the Warriors imo.

Iím glad other organizations did something about it instead of giving up and crying and whining like a lot of fans did.

prodigy
12-31-2017, 03:08 PM
Iíll never argue kd over lebron overall career, I even pointed so myself earlier

But itís 2017 baby :smoking: thatís all that matters !

Lebron is 33 and been in the league 15+ years, including finals pretty much every year which adds up to a few more seasons lol. even with that said Its just so hard to say Durant When he's surrounded by insane talent is better then Lebron even in 2017. I do not believe for a 2nd Durant Could lead a team to victories the way Lebron does.

lol, please
12-31-2017, 04:18 PM
Lebron is 33 and been in the league 15+ years, including finals pretty much every year which adds up to a few more seasons lol. even with that said Its just so hard to say Durant When he's surrounded by insane talent is better then Lebron even in 2017. I do not believe for a 2nd Durant Could lead a team to victories the way Lebron does.Crazy to believe he can't. You act as if he's played on this Warriors team since he was drafted. He has a body of work prior to joining the Warriors and it's outstanding.

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Chronz
12-31-2017, 04:43 PM
You guys are embarrassing sometimes. KD isn't better than Curry. Man if this team had kawhi instead of kd, I wonder what the perception would be. KD wasn't all that impressive to be put in that tier with LeBron and curry. Still a great talent but you can't reverse engineer greatness when the other two have proven far more.

TrueFan420
12-31-2017, 06:59 PM
You guys are embarrassing sometimes. KD isn't better than Curry. Man if this team had kawhi instead of kd, I wonder what the perception would be. KD wasn't all that impressive to be put in that tier with LeBron and curry. Still a great talent but you can't reverse engineer greatness when the other two have proven far more.

Kawhi would work in the system wonderfully and there's arguments to be made that he's as good or better than KD. However, KD was the exact piece this team need. He's a great 1v1 scorer. As good as Curry and Klay are, neither have the 1v1 mentality. Then he's a legit 7 footer and when we go small he provides extremely good help defense and shot blocking from the weakside. Kawhi is the better defender but the type of defender KD is works better for our cast of players.

mngopher35
12-31-2017, 07:05 PM
True, but hereís the thing, Iíd ignore the stats even if they said otherwise and favored kd while it was lebron who was visually serving up kd for us to watch over and over again. Eye over stats, always

I know you would ignore many things if they don't agree with your eyes and have experienced it in pretty funny fashion before lol. The problem is many people see things differently than you on a regular basis and the stats/context regularly brought up essentially gets ignored by you (well you might say you understand but then basically go along with what you already just said while still ignoring it).

I stated my case with multiple examples and have basically been told "but my eyes say" again and again and again. Efficiency stats generally point to Lebron. Volume stats point to Lebron. The history of their match ups/situations show Durant way below on OKC compared to Warriors so he clearly struggles with actually having to lead/create more. Context/situation helps show Warriors rely more on Curry, Lebron is the obvious creator for Cle and the surrounding cast is a clear advantage Durant has to set him up better. Etc. Etc. and it really won't matter because of your eyes. I just think you are very poor at evaluating what you see without bias tbh as we have seen in the past.

Chronz
12-31-2017, 07:25 PM
Kawhi would work in the system wonderfully and there's arguments to be made that he's as good or better than KD. However, KD was the exact piece this team need. He's a great 1v1 scorer. As good as Curry and Klay are, neither have the 1v1 mentality. Then he's a legit 7 footer and when we go small he provides extremely good help defense and shot blocking from the weakside. Kawhi is the better defender but the type of defender KD is works better for our cast of players.

KD is the exact piece most teams need, that's pretty much true of the elite players in this league for teams of all sorts.

I disagree with your defensive take but happy New Years

Scoots
12-31-2017, 08:57 PM
Kawhi would work in the system wonderfully and there's arguments to be made that he's as good or better than KD. However, KD was the exact piece this team need. He's a great 1v1 scorer. As good as Curry and Klay are, neither have the 1v1 mentality. Then he's a legit 7 footer and when we go small he provides extremely good help defense and shot blocking from the weakside. Kawhi is the better defender but the type of defender KD is works better for our cast of players.

Curry doesn't have a 1v1 mentality? He's scored an awful lot 1v1 for someone without the "mentality".

nastynice
01-01-2018, 02:05 PM
I know you would ignore many things if they don't agree with your eyes and have experienced it in pretty funny fashion before lol. The problem is many people see things differently than you on a regular basis and the stats/context regularly brought up essentially gets ignored by you (well you might say you understand but then basically go along with what you already just said while still ignoring it).

I stated my case with multiple examples and have basically been told "but my eyes say" again and again and again. Efficiency stats generally point to Lebron. Volume stats point to Lebron. The history of their match ups/situations show Durant way below on OKC compared to Warriors so he clearly struggles with actually having to lead/create more. Context/situation helps show Warriors rely more on Curry, Lebron is the obvious creator for Cle and the surrounding cast is a clear advantage Durant has to set him up better. Etc. Etc. and it really won't matter because of your eyes. I just think you are very poor at evaluating what you see without bias tbh as we have seen in the past.

Yea bro, MY posts are funny, while youíre the one sitting here trying to say the stats make lebron a better iso player vs Durant. Have fun with that, lol

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 02:11 PM
(null)

Yup, tell me again how the 2016 finals should drop lebron on the all time list.

It's not just the stats but them backing up everything else mentioned while all you have is your eyes (which gave us the take above) is a very good sign IMO. Again I was just saying you were ignoring a lot of things to laugh it off as a comparison and pointed those out.

nastynice
01-01-2018, 03:08 PM
Yup, tell me again how the 2016 finals should drop lebron on the all time list.

It's not just the stats but them backing up everything else mentioned while all you have is your eyes (which gave us the take above) is a very good sign IMO. Again I was just saying you were ignoring a lot of things to laugh it off as a comparison and pointed those out.

Why should lebron drop because of those finals?

All anyone is backing up is how much the Cavs lean on lebron. Great. Makes no diff. Iso skill is iso skill and weíve seen them matched up. Why do I give a crap how many times lebron can take jj barea to the rack? lol

Chronz
01-01-2018, 03:55 PM
How can a player drop in rankings wtf. What's etched in stone cannot be erased. Once you're deemed greater than a player, the only way you can be surpassed is if his accomplishments continue to grow beyond yours

Chronz
01-01-2018, 03:57 PM
Idk what y'all are arguing but nobody should be dumb enough to ignore roster support and what that luxury affords a player.

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 04:04 PM
Why should lebron drop because of those finals?

All anyone is backing up is how much the Cavs lean on lebron. Great. Makes no diff. Iso skill is iso skill and weíve seen them matched up. Why do I give a crap how many times lebron can take jj barea to the rack? lol

According to you after I believe it was game 2because it was proof he just wasn't a true leader. He didn't have that IT factor. He gave up. I pointed to context, stats, history etc. but you were just convinced halfway through that YOUR EYES were right and you could just see it.

Hahahaha you are actively ignoring that KD will constantly get better matchups to now question Lebron taking advantage of JJ Barea randomly? I agree ISO ability is ISO ability and certain things like attention from defense/gamplanning for player, being the main creator, having other great creators/shooter next to you, the amount of pressure/rest you get etc. all can play into certain situations while in ISO and give one a big advantage (see: Durant, this is part of why he went running here obviously). AFTER this change Durant has won some individual matchups with Lebron and you are hyping a few instances over everything else pointed out.

Back to that initial discussion it was the EXACT same thing then. Game 2 happened and you overreacted to a very small sample because it was related to Warriors/Lebron and your bias took over. You felt it was now time to tell everyone what your eyes said and ignore all context/data etc I brought up to tell us about how he wasn't a leader and didn't have "it". Then, well, we know what happened and how trustworthy your eyes can be lol. He followed up game 2 by going GOAT mode and basically securing a top 3 ranking from most. This is what you are doing here based off a small sample where your team obviously has a clear edge. This time there is like no way you guys lose so you won't be proven wrong in such fashion but why would I ever trust your eyes over everything else mentioned given how far off I have seen them in the past (with these people/teams involved but adding in Durant)?

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 04:08 PM
Idk what y'all are arguing but nobody should be dumb enough to ignore roster support and what that luxury affords a player.

This is basically what I am saying to him while also pointing to the stats. He just continues to talk about what his eyes are seeing so I am bringing up a past example of him doing the same thing midway through that finals

Jamiecballer
01-01-2018, 04:26 PM
A great player in a great system isn't less great because the system makes it easier for the player.

Sent from my Note 8 using TapatalkA white flag response to gophers post if ever I've seen one

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lol, please
01-01-2018, 04:41 PM
A white flag response to gophers post if ever I've seen one

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using TapatalkIt's true though.

Why do we rate great players lower, or put an asterisk next to their achievements if they were part of a great team?

This happens with:

Jordan/Pippen
Shaq/Kobe/Gasol
Curry/Klay/Green/Durant
Montana/Rice
Lebron/Wade/Bosh


Off the top


Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

HandsOnTheWheel
01-01-2018, 04:54 PM
It's true though.

Why do we rate great players lower, or put an asterisk next to their achievements if they were part of a great team?

This happens with:

Jordan/Pippen
Shaq/Kobe/Gasol
Curry/Klay/Green/Durant
Montana/Rice
Lebron/Wade/Bosh


Off the top


Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

It could be strongly argued that GS has the most odds stacked on their side to win cahmpionships than any of those other "super teams" you listed. Some people act like other teams have a chance this year and they just simply don't. That's why the integrity of the league is low ATM

nastynice
01-01-2018, 06:46 PM
According to you after I believe it was game 2because it was proof he just wasn't a true leader. He didn't have that IT factor. He gave up. I pointed to context, stats, history etc. but you were just convinced halfway through that YOUR EYES were right and you could just see it.

Hahahaha you are actively ignoring that KD will constantly get better matchups to now question Lebron taking advantage of JJ Barea randomly? I agree ISO ability is ISO ability and certain things like attention from defense/gamplanning for player, being the main creator, having other great creators/shooter next to you, the amount of pressure/rest you get etc. all can play into certain situations while in ISO and give one a big advantage (see: Durant, this is part of why he went running here obviously). AFTER this change Durant has won some individual matchups with Lebron and you are hyping a few instances over everything else pointed out.

Back to that initial discussion it was the EXACT same thing then. Game 2 happened and you overreacted to a very small sample because it was related to Warriors/Lebron and your bias took over. You felt it was now time to tell everyone what your eyes said and ignore all context/data etc I brought up to tell us about how he wasn't a leader and didn't have "it". Then, well, we know what happened and how trustworthy your eyes can be lol. He followed up game 2 by going GOAT mode and basically securing a top 3 ranking from most. This is what you are doing here based off a small sample where your team obviously has a clear edge. This time there is like no way you guys lose so you won't be proven wrong in such fashion but why would I ever trust your eyes over everything else mentioned given how far off I have seen them in the past (with these people/teams involved but adding in Durant)?

He's not that type of leader jordan is, he never will be, its not in his character. But he brings other things to the table, he's great in other ways, so what effect it has on his rankings I really don't know. For me to say that automatically equals him dropping in rankings, yea that's unfounded. But I don't take back what I said, he is who he is, he got thrown the life jacket of the century and then took full advantage of it, doesn't change the fact that he's mentally soft. Its just his character. You didn't see him stop playing with 10 sec still left on christmas day? That's who he is and always will be, never gonna change, I stand by that.

KD is mentally soft too, but I actually think he is gonna change. He's in the early stages already.

What I'm doing is pointing out why it makes no difference what the stats are when we saw them go head to head, we saw who had the best of who, we saw when iso'd who could handle who and who couldn't, we saw them face the same amount of defensive pressure and we saw who's just a flat out better iso player. If you disagree, fine, that sounds nuts to me, that sounds like someone who doesn't really have a full grasp on the game, but what can I say? Maybe the stats DO mean lebron's the better iso player, maybe the stats DO mean lebron's a better shooter than curry. I'll stick to my formula, you can stick to yours. I think watching them play, it was clear enough that I HONESTLY do find it laughable for someone to say otherwise. That's why that was my reaction.

Its not my bias, its just what it is. Everything I said is still true, except for him not being a winner since he obviously won. He's always gonna be a lebron first, team second type of guy, that's not a knock on him, he's just that magnitude of a player. His brand is always gonna be his number one priority, and I can see it in the way he plays. That's why he's too scared to get posterized bro, I already told you this. Him winning the ring in 2016 doesn't change what I said about him

nastynice
01-01-2018, 06:49 PM
This is basically what I am saying to him while also pointing to the stats. He just continues to talk about what his eyes are seeing so I am bringing up a past example of him doing the same thing midway through that finals

I posted a video in this thread. Tell me how those stats translate onto the court..if you can do that, then I will understand your stat argument

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 07:07 PM
He's not that type of leader jordan is, he never will be, its not in his character. But he brings other things to the table, he's great in other ways, so what effect it has on his rankings I really don't know. For me to say that automatically equals him dropping in rankings, yea that's unfounded. But I don't take back what I said, he is who he is, he got thrown the life jacket of the century and then took full advantage of it, doesn't change the fact that he's mentally soft. Its just his character. You didn't see him stop playing with 10 sec still left on christmas day? That's who he is and always will be, never gonna change, I stand by that.

KD is mentally soft too, but I actually think he is gonna change. He's in the early stages already.

What I'm doing is pointing out why it makes no difference what the stats are when we saw them go head to head, we saw who had the best of who, we saw when iso'd who could handle who and who couldn't, we saw them face the same amount of defensive pressure and we saw who's just a flat out better iso player. If you disagree, fine, that sounds nuts to me, that sounds like someone who doesn't really have a full grasp on the game, but what can I say? Maybe the stats DO mean lebron's the better iso player, maybe the stats DO mean lebron's a better shooter than curry. I'll stick to my formula, you can stick to yours. I think watching them play, it was clear enough that I HONESTLY do find it laughable for someone to say otherwise. That's why that was my reaction.

Its not my bias, its just what it is. Everything I said is still true, except for him not being a winner since he obviously won. He's always gonna be a lebron first, team second type of guy, that's not a knock on him, he's just that magnitude of a player. His brand is always gonna be his number one priority, and I can see it in the way he plays. That's why he's too scared to get posterized bro, I already told you this. Him winning the ring in 2016 doesn't change what I said about him

Haha I know he isn't the same type of leader as Jordan but that isn't the point or what was talked about even then. It was that he had given up and you saw it in his eyes/mentality and how it was over and you questioned him etc.

KD is on a different level completely from some of these other guys here though so kinda pointless. It just isn't him and I think he has admitted it.

Everything you say is basically your eyes against what many other people see (KD obviously has the edge in situation/pressure/help etc., it's not even close lol). The stats don't say Curry is better, your biased interpretation to twist things did as I explained earlier he easily has an argument via stats (but I get this is just what you do since you have nothing but "my eyes" to back up anything). It might sound nuts to you but pretty much everyone else can see why GS situation is helpful so I don't know what else to say here. Again I have seen your eyes be off to such an extreme extent before in a similar fashion so if that is all you have I guess we gotta just agree to disagree on the topic.

You took it much further than you are pretending and have already admitted this before lol. You know you went to the extreme and looked very foolish when instead of a Lebron that had given up and couldn't handle the pressure we all saw what actually happened. Your eyes deceived you then just like they are now and it is obvious when you have to ignore so much data and context for the eye test of a Warriors homer.

nastynice
01-01-2018, 07:21 PM
Haha I know he isn't the same type of leader as Jordan but that isn't the point or what was talked about even then. It was that he had given up and you saw it in his eyes/mentality and how it was over and you questioned him etc.

KD is on a different level completely from some of these other guys here though so kinda pointless. It just isn't him and I think he has admitted it.

Everything you say is basically your eyes against what many other people see (KD obviously has the edge in situation/pressure/help etc., it's not even close lol). The stats don't say Curry is better, your biased interpretation to twist things did as I explained earlier he easily has an argument via stats (but I get this is just what you do since you have nothing but "my eyes" to back up anything). It might sound nuts to you but pretty much everyone else can see why GS situation is helpful so I don't know what else to say here. Again I have seen your eyes be off to such an extreme extent before in a similar fashion so if that is all you have I guess we gotta just agree to disagree on the topic.

You took it much further than you are pretending and have already admitted this before lol. You know you went to the extreme and looked very foolish when instead of a Lebron that had given up and couldn't handle the pressure we all saw what actually happened. Your eyes deceived you then just like they are now and it is obvious when you have to ignore so much data and context for the eye test of a Warriors homer.

umm, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't think that entire series shifted once the league stepped in gave a flagrant (or whatever) for a play which has never been done in the history of the nba before? I don't say this to take anything away from the cavs, they were better so they won, but you don't think that life perserver the league threw him changed things? Changed DRASTICALLY? He WAS mentally checked out, he didn't throw green down because he wanted to bait him into getting suspended, wtf, lmao, he threw him down because he was having a hissy fit. The league checked him back in, good for them.

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 07:25 PM
I posted a video in this thread. Tell me how those stats translate onto the court..if you can do that, then I will understand your stat argument

Yes, I believe it was of one game and much of the video gave us very little of iso situations, especially 1v1?

My entire point is you are focusing on one very small sample of play and ignoring everything else just because that small sample helps your case. If one player is carrying a team all year and the other can leave while they win at an insane rate do you think that makes it less/more likely they can focus energy on one single game? If you have a shooter/scorer like Klay next to you do you think that helps a little more than someone like JR smith? If one player is going against a defense of Klay/Green and the other JR/Love do you think it might be easier to score on one set than the other? Do you think having Curry create helps take any pressure off? Is Curry good enough of a player to have a gravity which affects the entire team including Durant and possibly lift his efficiency or is Curry not that special?

I mean what do you mean explain how the stats translate? I can explain how the context favors Durant and that helps him overall very easily but you just ignore it. What could be said? The stats are simply a measurement of how often they play ISO and how efficient they are when doing so. Durant struggled heavily in 16 compared to 17 and the many factors mentioned about his help are the main reasons why he would take such a jump. I have explained this already though and it went without response. So when surrounded by major talent it looks like Durant is close but Lebron has the edge but when not surrounded by as much he seems to fall off drastically because of the extra pressure.

My argument is that it is a mixed bag and overall many things like the stats, history, and context point to him being in the same range at least if not better. I think they both have certain advantages here and it is probably pretty close overall on their iso ability. Lebron has more pressure and generally ISO's more and with similar or greater efficiency as KD according to the stats. KD clearly is in the better situation for many reasons mentioned to help him succeed in this area too.

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 07:29 PM
umm, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't think that entire series shifted once the league stepped in gave a flagrant (or whatever) for a play which has never been done in the history of the nba before? I don't say this to take anything away from the cavs, they were better so they won, but you don't think that life perserver the league threw him changed things? Changed DRASTICALLY? He WAS mentally checked out, he didn't throw green down because he wanted to bait him into getting suspended, wtf, lmao, he threw him down because he was having a hissy fit. The league checked him back in, good for them.

The game after you said all this (and before any suspension) Lebron went for 32/6/11 shooting over 50% lol.

I know what happened in the series but you were way off after game 2 in what you were saying and doing it all in the exact same fashion as this discussion (and probably many more related to Warriors/Lebron). Ignoring everything mentioned, data, context etc. to just tell people you are right because of your eyes.

Scoots
01-01-2018, 07:41 PM
It could be strongly argued that GS has the most odds stacked on their side to win cahmpionships than any of those other "super teams" you listed. Some people act like other teams have a chance this year and they just simply don't. That's why the integrity of the league is low ATM

Look back at all the pre-season predictions, then look at the stories one month into the season and how many of them were on their heads. Wait another month and look at how much things have changed. There is absolutely no certainty in the NBA any year including this one. The Rockets, Spurs, Cavs, Celtics are all legit contenders. The Warriors are probably favored against all of them, but it's not certain.

Jamiecballer
01-01-2018, 07:53 PM
Right, but the talent discrepancy hasn't changed, and that drives playoff expectations.

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Scoots
01-01-2018, 07:55 PM
Right, but the talent discrepancy hasn't changed, and that drives playoff expectations.

It's changed since last year and the projections of young players all over the place have changed this year. After the playoffs last year it looked really bleak, but not as bleak now certainly with all the changes we've seen in the league.

HandsOnTheWheel
01-01-2018, 07:56 PM
Look back at all the pre-season predictions, then look at the stories one month into the season and how many of them were on their heads. Wait another month and look at how much things have changed. There is absolutely no certainty in the NBA any year including this one. The Rockets, Spurs, Cavs, Celtics are all legit contenders. The Warriors are probably favored against all of them, but it's not certain.

I'd be shocked to see any of the teams you mentioned last a 7 game series against GS. I thought last year was the best chance they can be beat bc it was their first year, but they have some what of a chemistry now while all the teams you mentioned will still be figuring out how to mesh. It's just the nature of the beast and exposes a major loophole in the league imo

Jamiecballer
01-01-2018, 08:49 PM
It's changed since last year and the projections of young players all over the place have changed this year. After the playoffs last year it looked really bleak, but not as bleak now certainly with all the changes we've seen in the league.I don't see how it's changed at all. There is hope in Houston but that's just because they are playing insanely well. On paper they still look quite inferior and that's the best competition lol

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Scoots
01-01-2018, 08:52 PM
I'd be shocked to see any of the teams you mentioned last a 7 game series against GS. I thought last year was the best chance they can be beat bc it was their first year, but they have some what of a chemistry now while all the teams you mentioned will still be figuring out how to mesh. It's just the nature of the beast and exposes a major loophole in the league imo

Actually I think the Warriors are playing worse this year in some ways. Last year they were trying to win for David West and KD, Nick Young and Omri Casspi just don't provide the motivation this year. They've had a lot more injury issues this year, maybe in part because they've played 300 games in 3 years.

Scoots
01-01-2018, 08:54 PM
I don't see how it's changed at all. There is hope in Houston but that's just because they are playing insanely well. On paper they still look quite inferior and that's the best competition lol

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You don't think the Rocket's roster has changed since the end of last year? The Raptors? The Celtics? The Cavs? It's almost easier to talk about what hasn't changed since then.

In addition the Warriors system is getting more and more known and the best coaches have been coming up with new schemes to frustrate them. I think it's clearly harder for the Warriors this year than last.

nastynice
01-01-2018, 08:57 PM
Yes, I believe it was of one game and much of the video gave us very little of iso situations, especially 1v1?

My entire point is you are focusing on one very small sample of play and ignoring everything else just because that small sample helps your case. If one player is carrying a team all year and the other can leave while they win at an insane rate do you think that makes it less/more likely they can focus energy on one single game? If you have a shooter/scorer like Klay next to you do you think that helps a little more than someone like JR smith? If one player is going against a defense of Klay/Green and the other JR/Love do you think it might be easier to score on one set than the other? Do you think having Curry create helps take any pressure off? Is Curry good enough of a player to have a gravity which affects the entire team including Durant and possibly lift his efficiency or is Curry not that special?

I mean what do you mean explain how the stats translate? I can explain how the context favors Durant and that helps him overall very easily but you just ignore it. What could be said? The stats are simply a measurement of how often they play ISO and how efficient they are when doing so. Durant struggled heavily in 16 compared to 17 and the many factors mentioned about his help are the main reasons why he would take such a jump. I have explained this already though and it went without response. So when surrounded by major talent it looks like Durant is close but Lebron has the edge but when not surrounded by as much he seems to fall off drastically because of the extra pressure.

My argument is that it is a mixed bag and overall many things like the stats, history, and context point to him being in the same range at least if not better. I think they both have certain advantages here and it is probably pretty close overall on their iso ability. Lebron has more pressure and generally ISO's more and with similar or greater efficiency as KD according to the stats. KD clearly is in the better situation for many reasons mentioned to help him succeed in this area too.

Of course Durants team helps him get better looks, but I'm not talking about his numbers being inflated due to teammates, I'm talking about kd in iso. Iso means isolation in space, meaning one on one. Meaning all this stuff you're bringing up is minimal and really has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Him being wide open under the basket and getting a layup means nothing in regards to what I'm saying, because that's not an iso situation

It's not a small sample, it's now 6 straight games we've seen it. I'm predicting the trend stays the same.

By how the stats translate I mean, you're saying the stats say kd has it easy and LeBron has it tough, where is that on video? If kd got Bron on him at the 3 pt line, put a shake step back and pop, what difference does it make if klay is in the corner? Can LeBron somehow not play defense on his man because he's preoccupied thinking of klay? Is help not flashing because they can't leave shooters? Cuz I see the help flashing to kd quicker than LeBron, that's what the video says, so klay being klay has minimal bearing in this argument of kd LeBron head to head.

Golden states defense is much better and longer, no argument there

LeBron is amazing iso, but kd is something else. He's 7 ft tall with an even longer wingspan and can shoot off the dribble from 30ft. He can also reach the basket in 3 steps from 30 ft. Great as LeBron is if you think he's in the same class as a one on one scorer then you're just criminally under rating kd. It will only become more and more obvious with time

nastynice
01-01-2018, 09:06 PM
The game after you said all this (and before any suspension) Lebron went for 32/6/11 shooting over 50% lol.

I know what happened in the series but you were way off after game 2 in what you were saying and doing it all in the exact same fashion as this discussion (and probably many more related to Warriors/Lebron). Ignoring everything mentioned, data, context etc. to just tell people you are right because of your eyes.

What difference does it make what his stats were? He averaged more than that the entire finals before, what diff does that make?

And no, even in game 4 LeBron again reinforced exactly what I said about him. That little blip at the end of the Christmas game, again, same. I stand by everything I criticized him for, his amazing performance doesn't change that. If him playing amazing nullifies my argument then why would I even say it in the first place? The guy was fresh off of 6 years of incredible playoff runs (minus one series vs Dallas), if him performing deads that argument then that argument would've never been made in the first place

Scoots
01-01-2018, 09:21 PM
Of course Durants team helps him get better looks, but I'm not talking about his numbers being inflated due to teammates, I'm talking about kd in iso. Iso means isolation in space, meaning one on one. Meaning all this stuff you're bringing up is minimal and really has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Him being wide open under the basket and getting a layup means nothing in regards to what I'm saying, because that's not an iso situation

You do realize that the team around KD makes a difference to ISO too though right? When nobody doubles KD in ISO that's because they can't leave his teammates, and that too helps KD's efficiency.

nastynice
01-01-2018, 09:24 PM
You do realize that the team around KD makes a difference to ISO too though right? When nobody doubles KD in ISO that's because they can't leave his teammates, and that too helps KD's efficiency.

Theoretically sure, but when kd drives he IS getting doubled, and to add, before he's even in the paint. LeBron ain't getting doubled unless he already in the paint

I get the theory, I just ain't seeing it translated onto the court.

Scoots
01-01-2018, 09:34 PM
Theoretically sure, but when kd drives he IS getting doubled, and to add, before he's even in the paint. LeBron ain't getting doubled unless he already in the paint

I get the theory, I just ain't seeing it translated onto the court.

I understand the debate and I think it's worthy ... I just don't think it's simple in any way. LeBron is more of a threat to pass to the open man than KD which also helps him in ISO.

I will leave it that both are excellent ... KD's advantage in ISO is in shooting, LeBron's is in passing.

nastynice
01-01-2018, 09:43 PM
I understand the debate and I think it's worthy ... I just don't think it's simple in any way. LeBron is more of a threat to pass to the open man than KD which also helps him in ISO.

I will leave it that both are excellent ... KD's advantage in ISO is in shooting, LeBron's is in passing.

Yea, but given how ridiculous this squad is looking and how much that bothers other people, you are truly doing yourself a disservice by not taking every opportunity to rub it in :)

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 09:59 PM
Of course Durants team helps him get better looks, but I'm not talking about his numbers being inflated due to teammates, I'm talking about kd in iso. Iso means isolation in space, meaning one on one. Meaning all this stuff you're bringing up is minimal and really has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Him being wide open under the basket and getting a layup means nothing in regards to what I'm saying, because that's not an iso situation

It's not a small sample, it's now 6 straight games we've seen it. I'm predicting the trend stays the same.

By how the stats translate I mean, you're saying the stats say kd has it easy and LeBron has it tough, where is that on video? If kd got Bron on him at the 3 pt line, put a shake step back and pop, what difference does it make if klay is in the corner? Can LeBron somehow not play defense on his man because he's preoccupied thinking of klay? Is help not flashing because they can't leave shooters? Cuz I see the help flashing to kd quicker than LeBron, that's what the video says, so klay being klay has minimal bearing in this argument of kd LeBron head to head.

Golden states defense is much better and longer, no argument there

LeBron is amazing iso, but kd is something else. He's 7 ft tall with an even longer wingspan and can shoot off the dribble from 30ft. He can also reach the basket in 3 steps from 30 ft. Great as LeBron is if you think he's in the same class as a one on one scorer then you're just criminally under rating kd. It will only become more and more obvious with time

Are there 50 examples of this 1v1 of him against Lebron? 30? How many of these situations did Durant win over Lebron with just 1v1 etc in these examples? Most of the time they aren't matched up etc. lol. Again you aren't even using just isolation plays you show a youtube clip of mostly them not on each other going ISO and call it a day.

6 games is not a small sample? Sorry I guess EXTREMELY small sample would have been better. All of this with Durant in the specific situation you keep ignoring. Not only that but it isn't full games of them going ISO but instead many different types of situations that don't relate to the topic.

Yup they are and that plays into why one might have an advantage when going ISO.

KD was all of these things before the Warriors so why not the same level of success in ISO? Everyone else can understand it is his situation that has changed except for you I guess...

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 10:03 PM
What difference does it make what his stats were? He averaged more than that the entire finals before, what diff does that make?

And no, even in game 4 LeBron again reinforced exactly what I said about him. That little blip at the end of the Christmas game, again, same. I stand by everything I criticized him for, his amazing performance doesn't change that. If him playing amazing nullifies my argument then why would I even say it in the first place? The guy was fresh off of 6 years of incredible playoff runs (minus one series vs Dallas), if him performing deads that argument then that argument would've never been made in the first place

hahaha you obviouslly will always stand by your eyes but I think everyone who saw you posting (or admitting to it being ridiculous afterwards in that other thread) know exactly how crazy you were getting then after game 2 and what it meant/showed for Lebron (yes, all time rank did come up).

Scoots
01-01-2018, 10:15 PM
Yea, but given how ridiculous this squad is looking and how much that bothers other people, you are truly doing yourself a disservice by not taking every opportunity to rub it in :)

Oh. Okay. My troll game was seriously hamstrung by becoming a mod.

Pat McCaw is a future Hall of Famer!

nastynice
01-01-2018, 10:25 PM
Are there 50 examples of this 1v1 of him against Lebron? 30? How many of these situations did Durant win over Lebron with just 1v1 etc in these examples? Most of the time they aren't matched up etc. lol. Again you aren't even using just isolation plays you show a youtube clip of mostly them not on each other going ISO and call it a day.

6 games is not a small sample? Sorry I guess EXTREMELY small sample would have been better. All of this with Durant in the specific situation you keep ignoring. Not only that but it isn't full games of them going ISO but instead many different types of situations that don't relate to the topic.

Yup they are and that plays into why one might have an advantage when going ISO.

KD was all of these things before the Warriors so why not the same level of success in ISO? Everyone else can understand it is his situation that has changed except for you I guess...

It's enough that he started the baton being passed conversation...

nastynice
01-01-2018, 10:29 PM
hahaha you obviouslly will always stand by your eyes but I think everyone who saw you posting (or admitting to it being ridiculous afterwards in that other thread) know exactly how crazy you were getting then after game 2 and what it meant/showed for Lebron (yes, all time rank did come up).

He came up huge and wrote a certain legacy for him self, I get that and I can't take that away, but you'll see what I'm talking about. That characteristic never changed, and seeing what we got going on in the bay, he's gonna show you full tilt pretty soon here. Not this year. Maybe not even next. But soon.

A man can only go so many finals in a row with trash teams and zero help. He'll get sick of it soon..

nastynice
01-01-2018, 10:32 PM
Oh. Okay. My troll game was seriously hamstrung by becoming a mod.

Pat McCaw is a future Hall of Famer!

That's not how it's done

It's always gotta have some truth to it. That's what makes it sting, lol, that hint of truth!!

Scoots
01-01-2018, 10:44 PM
That's not how it's done

It's always gotta have some truth to it. That's what makes it sting, lol, that hint of truth!!

The Bucks suck as an organization because they sold Pat McCaw to the Warriors!

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 10:57 PM
Are there 50 examples of this 1v1 of him against Lebron? 30? How many of these situations did Durant win over Lebron with just 1v1 etc in these examples? Most of the time they aren't matched up etc. lol. Again you aren't even using just isolation plays you show a youtube clip of mostly them not on each other going ISO and call it a day.

6 games is not a small sample? Sorry I guess EXTREMELY small sample would have been better. All of this with Durant in the specific situation you keep ignoring. Not only that but it isn't full games of them going ISO but instead many different types of situations that don't relate to the topic.

Yup they are and that plays into why one might have an advantage when going ISO.

KD was all of these things before the Warriors so why not the same level of success in ISO? Everyone else can understand it is his situation that has changed except for you I guess...

It's enough that he started the baton being passed conversation...

I mean that happens every year now he doesn't win (curry 2015, lebron reclaims clearly, now Durant). People just always do this after someone wins, it's dumb to me haha.

I can agree it isn't some big gap between them. I see lebron/curry very slightly over kawhi/Durant, then a drop off.

mngopher35
01-01-2018, 11:09 PM
hahaha you obviouslly will always stand by your eyes but I think everyone who saw you posting (or admitting to it being ridiculous afterwards in that other thread) know exactly how crazy you were getting then after game 2 and what it meant/showed for Lebron (yes, all time rank did come up).

He came up huge and wrote a certain legacy for him self, I get that and I can't take that away, but you'll see what I'm talking about. That characteristic never changed, and seeing what we got going on in the bay, he's gonna show you full tilt pretty soon here. Not this year. Maybe not even next. But soon.

A man can only go so many finals in a row with trash teams and zero help. He'll get sick of it soon..

Wait what are you trying to say?

His team is good it just is t close to what gs is if you are talking about lebron. Spurs rockets cavs would be top tier probably you just can't match what gs has.

nastynice
01-02-2018, 12:26 AM
I mean that happens every year now he doesn't win (curry 2015, lebron reclaims clearly, now Durant). People just always do this after someone wins, it's dumb to me haha.

I can agree it isn't some big gap between them. I see lebron/curry very slightly over kawhi/Durant, then a drop off.

This one's different. What LeBron did to curry in 2016 is exactly what kd is doing to LeBron

Its not that kd won. It's HOW he won. He exerted himself as the dominant player in the LeBron kd matchup.

lol, please
01-02-2018, 12:38 AM
This one's different. What LeBron did to curry in 2016 is exactly what kd is doing to LeBron

Its not that kd won. It's HOW he won. He exerted himself as the dominant player in the LeBron kd matchup.

LeBron has never proven his dominance over curry. Curry is the superior player.

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Saddletramp
01-02-2018, 04:52 AM
6 games isn't a small sample size?




umm, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't think that entire series shifted once the league stepped in gave a flagrant (or whatever) for a play which has never been done in the history of the nba before? I don't say this to take anything away from the cavs, they were better so they won, but you don't think that life perserver the league threw him changed things? Changed DRASTICALLY? He WAS mentally checked out, he didn't throw green down because he wanted to bait him into getting suspended, wtf, lmao, he threw him down because he was having a hissy fit. The league checked him back in, good for them.

So the Cavs were better (so they won) but yet the the series shifted because the league stepped in to give that flagrant? So the Warriors would've been the better team if the league didn't screw them over? What the **** are you talking about? He deserved that flagrant and it was added to his previous idiot infractions. You seriously can't be this dense, can you?


By how the stats translate I mean, you're saying the stats say kd has it easy and LeBron has it tough, where is that on video? If kd got Bron on him at the 3 pt line, put a shake step back and pop, what difference does it make if klay is in the corner? Can LeBron somehow not play defense on his man because he's preoccupied thinking of klay? Is help not flashing because they can't leave shooters? Cuz I see the help flashing to kd quicker than LeBron, that's what the video says, so klay being klay has minimal bearing in this argument of kd LeBron head to head.

Yeah, I guess you can be. My eyes are telling me that you don't know ****. Stats back it up, too.

Scoots
01-02-2018, 09:58 AM
This is such a pointless thread.

Chronz
01-02-2018, 10:51 AM
This is basically what I am saying to him while also pointing to the stats. He just continues to talk about what his eyes are seeing so I am bringing up a past example of him doing the same thing midway through that finals

He's just talking about Iso from what I can gather, is it really that important? We already know kd benefits in all aspects of his game in how he can pick and choose his moments thx to a cast he doesn't need to carry. The opposite of Bron. The finals showed how fresh kd came into 4 th quarters vs Bron having to expend far more energy just to keep it close.

Chronz
01-02-2018, 10:53 AM
He's not that type of leader jordan is, he never will be, its not in his character. But he brings other things to the table, he's great in other ways, so what effect it has on his rankings I really don't know. For me to say that automatically equals him dropping in rankings, yea that's unfounded. But I don't take back what I said, he is who he is, he got thrown the life jacket of the century and then took full advantage of it, doesn't change the fact that he's mentally soft. Its just his character. You didn't see him stop playing with 10 sec still left on christmas day? That's who he is and always will be, never gonna change, I stand by that.

KD is mentally soft too, but I actually think he is gonna change. He's in the early stages already.

What I'm doing is pointing out why it makes no difference what the stats are when we saw them go head to head, we saw who had the best of who, we saw when iso'd who could handle who and who couldn't, we saw them face the same amount of defensive pressure and we saw who's just a flat out better iso player. If you disagree, fine, that sounds nuts to me, that sounds like someone who doesn't really have a full grasp on the game, but what can I say? Maybe the stats DO mean lebron's the better iso player, maybe the stats DO mean lebron's a better shooter than curry. I'll stick to my formula, you can stick to yours. I think watching them play, it was clear enough that I HONESTLY do find it laughable for someone to say otherwise. That's why that was my reaction.

Its not my bias, its just what it is. Everything I said is still true, except for him not being a winner since he obviously won. He's always gonna be a lebron first, team second type of guy, that's not a knock on him, he's just that magnitude of a player. His brand is always gonna be his number one priority, and I can see it in the way he plays. That's why he's too scared to get posterized bro, I already told you this. Him winning the ring in 2016 doesn't change what I said about him

You can be a loser with a championship ring if the team you joined has already won without you. Him winning didn't validate **** because we all know how he did it. It was literally record setting the likes of which will never be possible again.

My eyes say it's still easily Bron and I make no apologies for having more than just my eyes at my disposal and neither will anyone else. Just agree to disagree cuz there is no argument left.

Chronz
01-02-2018, 10:58 AM
I posted a video in this thread. Tell me how those stats translate onto the court..if you can do that, then I will understand your stat argument

Players have an awareness of the talent around them and it influences their decisions on the court. It's why KD was easier to lock down than Bron when both had far more similarly talented squads throughout their careers. Only kd has an unfathomable amount of talent, despite his great Iso skills, there's a reason his efficiency faltered without the teams best player

Chronz
01-02-2018, 11:02 AM
Are there 50 examples of this 1v1 of him against Lebron? 30? How many of these situations did Durant win over Lebron with just 1v1 etc in these examples? Most of the time they aren't matched up etc. lol. Again you aren't even using just isolation plays you show a youtube clip of mostly them not on each other going ISO and call it a day.

6 games is not a small sample? Sorry I guess EXTREMELY small sample would have been better. All of this with Durant in the specific situation you keep ignoring. Not only that but it isn't full games of them going ISO but instead many different types of situations that don't relate to the topic.

Yup they are and that plays into why one might have an advantage when going ISO.

KD was all of these things before the Warriors so why not the same level of success in ISO? Everyone else can understand it is his situation that has changed except for you I guess...

I would ignore stats too if Im not even aware of what constitutes a statistically relevant sample. Can't blame him for that one. At least when I dabble with them, I don't make grandiose claims lol.

Chronz
01-02-2018, 11:08 AM
KD is in the conversation but I have a feeling curry has had enough of taking a back seat and firmly establishes himself as the games best player after these playoffs. Bron will be 2nd for the first time since Kobe or KG or something

mngopher35
01-02-2018, 02:04 PM
This one's different. What LeBron did to curry in 2016 is exactly what kd is doing to LeBron

Its not that kd won. It's HOW he won. He exerted himself as the dominant player in the LeBron kd matchup.

That is what I am saying I disagree with lol. This wasn't even remotely close to the same thing but what was the same and got people doing the same thing in the past is that he won the title. Lebron was insane in both finals while Curry was pretty poor in 16 so not sure how that is comparable.

Durant was not the main creator. He was not the best offensive or defensive player on his own team. The other team was more concerned with another player (Curry than him). I can go on and on in explaining the context again but here is where I likely differ on this with you: Durant is more like KYRIE than Lebron from a style/attention/creating standpoint and benefited in the finals as scorer like we have actually seen from Kyrie kinda. All those things about creating, best player, most attention all go to Curry/Lebron at the benefit of these scorers (and I believe you have argued moreso for players next to Curry). It makes their games easier and it is a major reason we saw Durant numbers boost like that (think of the example of people running out of the lane to guard Curry while KD had the ball and could walk it to a layup).

Don't get me wrong he is obviously better than Kyrie as an individual player but his surroundings were a huge factor in that success. His role as more of a scorer is more like how Kyrie was just with a better player getting a few more touches due to that and no Lebron.

mngopher35
01-02-2018, 02:09 PM
This is basically what I am saying to him while also pointing to the stats. He just continues to talk about what his eyes are seeing so I am bringing up a past example of him doing the same thing midway through that finals

He's just talking about Iso from what I can gather, is it really that important? We already know kd benefits in all aspects of his game in how he can pick and choose his moments thx to a cast he doesn't need to carry. The opposite of Bron. The finals showed how fresh kd came into 4 th quarters vs Bron having to expend far more energy just to keep it close.

He was at first only talking ISO and laughing it off while ignoring all this context being brought up and ignoring the stats mentioned etc. I was just calling him out for ignoring everything people brought

nastynice
01-02-2018, 02:18 PM
You can be a loser with a championship ring if the team you joined has already won without you. Him winning didn't validate **** because we all know how he did it. It was literally record setting the likes of which will never be possible again.

My eyes say it's still easily Bron and I make no apologies for having more than just my eyes at my disposal and neither will anyone else. Just agree to disagree cuz there is no argument left.

Thereís plenty argument left, but Iíll just let time back my argument up. Only a matter of time, as Iím sure everyone knows deep down

Itís like this.
Is lebron capable of defending kd? No
Is kd capable of defending lebron? Yes
Can lebron get any shot he wants vs kd? No
Can kd get any shot he want vs lebron? Yes

Why would I care what stats say? Bigger question, why would YOU care?

Saddletramp
01-02-2018, 03:29 PM
Thereís plenty argument left, but Iíll just let time back my argument up. Only a matter of time, as Iím sure everyone knows deep down

Itís like this.
Is lebron capable of defending kd? No
Is kd capable of defending lebron? Yes
Can lebron get any shot he wants vs kd? No
Can kd get any shot he want vs lebron? Yes

Why would I care what stats say? Bigger question, why would YOU care?

lol

Chronz
01-02-2018, 03:55 PM
Thereís plenty argument left, but Iíll just let time back my argument up. Only a matter of time, as Iím sure everyone knows deep down

Itís like this.
Is lebron capable of defending kd? No
Is kd capable of defending lebron? Yes
Can lebron get any shot he wants vs kd? No
Can kd get any shot he want vs lebron? Yes

Why would I care what stats say? Bigger question, why would YOU care?
Here's the thing, why would I care about what you perceive to be a 1 on 1 affair when what I value is the influence a player has on the entire landscape of the court. Idc about your subjective take on shot creation. I remember when I thought the NBA was like street ball tho

nastynice
01-02-2018, 04:24 PM
Here's the thing, why would I care about what you perceive to be a 1 on 1 affair when what I value is the influence a player has on the entire landscape of the court. Idc about your subjective take on shot creation. I remember when I thought the NBA was like street ball tho

You donít have to value the 1 on 1 aspect, thatís fine. I myself claim curryís better than Durant even tho heís clearly not the same caliber iso player

lol, please
01-02-2018, 04:46 PM
lolNastynice is off base with his angle on stats, but that aside, what did you disagree with there? Would love to hear it.

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lol, please
01-02-2018, 04:47 PM
You donít have to value the 1 on 1 aspect, thatís fine. I myself claim curryís better than Durant even tho heís clearly not the same caliber iso playerThat's because ISO is just one aspect of offense, and offense is only a part of the game.

I myself claim Curry is better than LeBron even though he's clearly not the same rim attacker.

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Chronz
01-02-2018, 05:04 PM
You donít have to value the 1 on 1 aspect, thatís fine. I myself claim curryís better than Durant even tho heís clearly not the same caliber iso player

So then what are you guys arguing? Quite frankly its sad that KD had to join the Dubs at this stage in his career, its like he knew even facing a declining Bron wasn't enough of an advantage, he had to join the one team in history that could ever win without him at this level. Such cowardice shall never be ignored no matter how much you want to focus on the irrelevant 1v1 perception. Facts are, KD will need to prove alot more to be seen in that rarified air.

nastynice
01-02-2018, 07:20 PM
So then what are you guys arguing? Quite frankly its sad that KD had to join the Dubs at this stage in his career, its like he knew even facing a declining Bron wasn't enough of an advantage, he had to join the one team in history that could ever win without him at this level. Such cowardice shall never be ignored no matter how much you want to focus on the irrelevant 1v1 perception. Facts are, KD will need to prove alot more to be seen in that rarified air.

I have no clue, I been specifically speaking of the two in terms of being matched up

As far as overall legacy LeBron is in his own category, kd just going for the 2017/2018 legacy

Bron isn't declining, he's arguably at his peak

Which makes the fact that we are seeing kd starting to own a peak LeBron all that much funnier. and ironic

mngopher35
01-02-2018, 07:38 PM
you really don't think kd is the better iso player? lol, cmon man

It factors into things because the way kd slides over and plays help defense, lebron has the same opportunity, the fact that he doesn't take it is his own fault.

Lebron don't always check the best offensive player. Why you think they got crowder and green. He's just not the same caliber rim protector as kd. He's called Durantula for a reason, haha


Without even touching all the advantages KD gets playing off others in that system instead of creating for everyone Lebron is currently at 1.07 ppp on iso's while Durant is lower at .98 ppp. It's not as crazy as you sound trying to downplay all of the advantages he has and fell off once Curry left due to injury actually.

It is far easier to Iso on Kyrie 1v1 or Love 1v1 with no help (see:finals) than it is against Iggy or Klay or Durant 1v1 WITH DPOY Green waiting in the lane to help. Despite these major advantages and doing iso to a far lesser degree (not needed given teams talent/system) we can see it isn't like he is currently drastically outperforming Lebron. Despite this even last playoffs Lebron was right there in his PPP come playoff time at 1.17 to 1.16 for Durant and doing it at over double the rate.

Lastly if you want to get an idea of how good Durant is at iso when he isn't surrounded by insane talent, is needed to be the leader/create, and doesn't just get to go 1v1 against lesser players with no help we can look at 2016 playoffs where he was at .75 ppp far worse than anything we have talked about so far (Lebron at .94). He falls off big when actually asked to be a top player/leader without insane support as OKC showed with more of those situations asked of him even if still not same rate as Lebron. The reason you laugh off the idea Lebron might be better at iso is because you ignore all of the context repeatedly pointed out to just prop up Curry or KD or whatever Warriors is being talked about at that time. The rest of your points all fall into that context you keep ignoring about what one team needs from it's player compared to the other but I just thought since I was on nba.com I would add some numbers to this iso stuff. I think there is an argument to be made for either one overall but based off the last two post seasons Lebron gets more PPP, is in a clearly tougher situation/gets more attention, and does it at a higher volume.

To be clear it started with these posts. He laughed off the idea someone could think Lebron was better at ISO situations and I added some reasoning behind why it is at least possible (and even said there is an argument to be made for either depending).

He has specifically been using a few examples of those two 1v1 in the finals and Christmas game. He has been speaking of them in terms of being matched up using his eyes over everything else mentioned by his own choice not because it isn't part of the discussion.

nastynice
01-02-2018, 07:45 PM
To be clear it started with these posts. He laughed off the idea someone could think Lebron was better at ISO situations and I added some reasoning behind why it is at least possible (and even said there is an argument to be made for either depending).

He has specifically been using a few examples of those two 1v1 in the finals and Christmas game. He has been speaking of them in terms of being matched up using his eyes over everything else mentioned by his own choice not because it isn't part of the discussion.

OK it's not laughable

Saddletramp
01-02-2018, 07:46 PM
Nastynice is off base with his angle on stats, but that aside, what did you disagree with there? Would love to hear it.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Because KD didn't stack up to Lebron before he went to GS. So when we're talking ISO, KD changes teams and gets better against the same dude? That doesn't make any sense. It's been talked to death and he still looks back at a few plays during a few games after KD cowered over to GS.


Also, he's pointed to the Christmas Day game where the league came out and said they missed some fouls that KD committed. That's not ISO favorable when you stop a guy but it's because you're allowed to foul him for some reason.

nastynice
01-02-2018, 07:58 PM
Because KD didn't stack up to Lebron before he went to GS. So when we're talking ISO, KD changes teams and gets better against the same dude? That doesn't make any sense. It's been talked to death and he still looks back at a few plays during a few games after KD cowered over to GS.


Also, he's pointed to the Christmas Day game where the league came out and said they missed some fouls that KD committed. That's not ISO favorable when you stop a guy but it's because you're allowed to foul him for some reason.

Ain't nobody calling that weak *** foul, if the roles were reversed I certainly wouldn't have expected it

Especially after watching him stiff arm all game, tryina stiff arm his way to contact, ain't nobody buying that weak ****. He knew his **** was about to get sent, return to sender, so he flailed.

KD definitely bumped him at the free throw line tho before the shot, no call, oh well. Sometimes you're the first player in league history to get a flagrant for pushing someone standing over them, sometimes you get away with a bump on the last play. Cookie crumble

Saddletramp
01-02-2018, 08:05 PM
Both of those final drives were clear fouls. The first one, he got smacked in the groin by a KD karate chop, the second there were two fouls committed. Get your head out of your homer *** every once in awhile.

And again, that flagrant was deserved from Game 5. Cut out your **** posting.

mngopher35
01-02-2018, 08:08 PM
OK it's not laughable

So were you trolling or do you actually get what me and others have been saying now? Im just curious if you changed your perspective here or not at all?

nastynice
01-02-2018, 08:58 PM
So were you trolling or do you actually get what me and others have been saying now? Im just curious if you changed your perspective here or not at all?

I understood what you were saying from the beginning, I don't agree, I think it's been clearly demonstrated to us that kd can handle LeBron on either side of the court and LeBron can't handle kd on either side of the court. Everything you are mentioning is very secondary to this fact. If you prioritize that higher then cool

It's not laughable tho, LeBrons been unstoppable in his own right

nastynice
01-02-2018, 09:01 PM
Both of those final drives were clear fouls. The first one, he got smacked in the groin by a KD karate chop, the second there were two fouls committed. Get your head out of your homer *** every once in awhile.

And again, that flagrant was deserved from Game 5. Cut out your **** posting.

Haha, the second to last drive is also hilarious because again, the contact was created by LeBron trying to stiff arm.

Both plays is LeBron knowing he can't deal with that durantula length and using his off arm to try and clear space.

Watch the replays :)

Saddletramp
01-02-2018, 09:33 PM
Haha, the second to last drive is also hilarious because again, the contact was created by LeBron trying to stiff arm.

Both plays is LeBron knowing he can't deal with that durantula length and using his off arm to try and clear space.

Watch the replays :)

I did. There's a difference between clearing space and committing an offensive foul.

metswon69
01-02-2018, 10:12 PM
In a short answer to the OP, yes of course it could. Losing Curry or Durant for the playoffs could make it very difficult for them to get past the Rockets or maybe the Spurs or Timberwolves and even if they escape the West, they would still have a difficult time without one of those guys against presumably Cleveland.

mngopher35
01-02-2018, 10:23 PM
So were you trolling or do you actually get what me and others have been saying now? Im just curious if you changed your perspective here or not at all?

I understood what you were saying from the beginning, I don't agree, I think it's been clearly demonstrated to us that kd can handle LeBron on either side of the court and LeBron can't handle kd on either side of the court. Everything you are mentioning is very secondary to this fact. If you prioritize that higher then cool

It's not laughable tho, LeBrons been unstoppable in his own right

Ok fair enough. I simply think that the "everything else" outside of your 6 game sample of a few kd vs lebron ISO's matters while you don't really.

We can agree to disagree on the subject but your initial stance was off haha that's why I kept responding.

nastynice
01-02-2018, 10:44 PM
Ok fair enough. I simply think that the "everything else" outside of your 6 game sample of a few kd vs lebron ISO's matters while you don't really.

We can agree to disagree on the subject but your initial stance was off haha that's why I kept responding.

lol, dammit ok, initial stance was off.

Part of me wants to double down on it, but I won't..

Legitimate
01-03-2018, 06:40 AM
I honestly think, they would still make the conference finals had he been injured long term. shaun livingston be his replacement? difficult to say if they beat a healthy spurs without curry, however I could do it on nba 2k :shrug:

Chronz
01-03-2018, 08:26 AM
I have no clue, I been specifically speaking of the two in terms of being matched up

As far as overall legacy LeBron is in his own category, kd just going for the 2017/2018 legacy

Bron isn't declining, he's arguably at his peak

Which makes the fact that we are seeing kd starting to own a peak LeBron all that much funnier. and ironic

His skill level has increased to another level over the years but I don't think we should discount the defensive end, granted Bron has put forth more effort on that end this year, younger Bron was just a beast like no other. The constant pressure he put on you on both ends, we'll never see that again.

Curiously, do you think current kd would have stood a better chance at defending that Bron because in those finals KD stood zero chance, which led to a high dose of double teams which led to precision passing to shooters galore. I feel like he's gotten stronger so maybe it would've been a better match. Right now, 1v1 I would lean towards KD but when you factor in how defenses can load up on you, I trust Bron more against heavy defensive attention just cuz he's proven far more against elite defenses.

prodigy
01-03-2018, 10:28 AM
Crazy to believe he can't. You act as if he's played on this Warriors team since he was drafted. He has a body of work prior to joining the Warriors and it's outstanding.

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Ehh, made the finals once with Westbrook and harden and lost to LeBron/heat in a 4 game sweep. Lebrons still 19-10 i believe vs Durant including finals.

I do not believe for a 2nd Durant could lead that cavs 2007 team to the finals. Durant's a great shooter and has turned into a good defender. But Lebrons been doing everything Durant is for over a decade.

prodigy
01-03-2018, 10:30 AM
Because KD didn't stack up to Lebron before he went to GS. So when we're talking ISO, KD changes teams and gets better against the same dude? That doesn't make any sense. It's been talked to death and he still looks back at a few plays during a few games after KD cowered over to GS.


Also, he's pointed to the Christmas Day game where the league came out and said they missed some fouls that KD committed. That's not ISO favorable when you stop a guy but it's because you're allowed to foul him for some reason.

agree here. KD was 8-19 on Christmas also. Nothing to write home about lol.

Scoots
01-03-2018, 12:02 PM
I did. There's a difference between clearing space and committing an offensive foul.

As far as I can see the difference is whether the refs blows the whistle. I've seen defenders called for being near the offensive player and offensive players called for swinging an arm with no contact, likewise I've seen defenders maul the offensive player with no call and seen offensive players literally knock the defender out with an elbow and have the foul go on the defender.

prodigy
01-03-2018, 12:41 PM
As far as I can see the difference is whether the refs blows the whistle. I've seen defenders called for being near the offensive player and offensive players called for swinging an arm with no contact, likewise I've seen defenders maul the offensive player with no call and seen offensive players literally knock the defender out with an elbow and have the foul go on the defender.

This leads into the bigger issue here. Refs suck. For real im not trying to sound like a cry baby but i think most of us can agree the consistently of NBA officials is awful. I know Refing basketball isn't easy. Just playing the game i know this. But U have guys get a foul for a slight bump outside. then someone can drive inside and get hip checked with nothing called. Also it seems like every official still falls for flops which they are not suppose to call anymore. It seems as if every offical have there own set of rules. This needs to change. Maybe start fining or suspending refs for an amount of bad calls? IDK something needs to happen.

Lebron was fouled by Durant if u are following the NBA rules. But I've seen a lot more contact take place with no fouls called and a lot less contact with fouls called lol. Not consistent at all.

nastynice
01-03-2018, 12:45 PM
His skill level has increased to another level over the years but I don't think we should discount the defensive end, granted Bron has put forth more effort on that end this year, younger Bron was just a beast like no other. The constant pressure he put on you on both ends, we'll never see that again.

Curiously, do you think current kd would have stood a better chance at defending that Bron because in those finals KD stood zero chance, which led to a high dose of double teams which led to precision passing to shooters galore. I feel like he's gotten stronger so maybe it would've been a better match. Right now, 1v1 I would lean towards KD but when you factor in how defenses can load up on you, I trust Bron more against heavy defensive attention just cuz he's proven far more against elite defenses.

Kd vs Miami lebron is a diff story. Heís lost some explosion now. Even tho he has more than made up for it mentally, vs kd specifically it makes no diff. Him losing explosion means kd can get around him while he canít get around kd. Thatís pretty much what it comes down to and why you can visually see lebron wants no part of kd. Heís not used to being on the court with another player who is flat out superior to him when matched up

Scoots
01-03-2018, 02:19 PM
This leads into the bigger issue here. Refs suck. For real im not trying to sound like a cry baby but i think most of us can agree the consistently of NBA officials is awful. I know Refing basketball isn't easy. Just playing the game i know this. But U have guys get a foul for a slight bump outside. then someone can drive inside and get hip checked with nothing called. Also it seems like every official still falls for flops which they are not suppose to call anymore. It seems as if every offical have there own set of rules. This needs to change. Maybe start fining or suspending refs for an amount of bad calls? IDK something needs to happen.

Lebron was fouled by Durant if u are following the NBA rules. But I've seen a lot more contact take place with no fouls called and a lot less contact with fouls called lol. Not consistent at all.

I think they need to add a 4th ref so they can reduce their areas of focus so they can be more consistent and maybe stop missing so many fundamental calls.

valade16
01-03-2018, 02:20 PM
I think they need to add a 4th ref so they can reduce their areas of focus so they can be more consistent and maybe stop missing so many fundamental calls.

I've long thought this, the only problem I foresee (certainly in the short term) is you're going to get more foul calls because more eyes will catch more stuff.

Chronz
01-03-2018, 03:36 PM
Kd vs Miami lebron is a diff story. Heís lost some explosion now. Even tho he has more than made up for it mentally, vs kd specifically it makes no diff. Him losing explosion means kd can get around him while he canít get around kd. Thatís pretty much what it comes down to and why you can visually see lebron wants no part of kd. Heís not used to being on the court with another player who is flat out superior to him when matched up

That's not what i see but to each his own, both guys have scored at will throughout their matchups, even just focusing on dubs era KD vs older LeBron, I've seen Bron dominate superior defenses plenty but yeah KD is among the best, we're witnessing peak KD

lol, please
01-03-2018, 05:11 PM
That's not what i see but to each his own, both guys have scored at will throughout their matchups, even just focusing on dubs era KD vs older LeBron, I've seen Bron dominate superior defenses plenty but yeah KD is among the best, we're witnessing peak KDWell Durant is on the best defensive team in the league. Hard to consistently best superior defenses.....when there aren't any actually superior to yours.

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nastynice
01-03-2018, 05:20 PM
let em know!! :nod:

Scoots
01-03-2018, 09:42 PM
I've long thought this, the only problem I foresee (certainly in the short term) is you're going to get more foul calls because more eyes will catch more stuff.

Yeah, but as long as the refs are consistent the players adjust quickly.

prodigy
01-04-2018, 10:42 AM
I think they need to add a 4th ref so they can reduce their areas of focus so they can be more consistent and maybe stop missing so many fundamental calls.

How would u feel about reply being used more? maybe coaches receiving 2-3 challenges. Have a 4th official at the scores table already reviewing everything to speed up the process. ( I've always thought it was stupid for the officials on the court to review plays.)

ewing
01-04-2018, 10:48 AM
Well Durant is on the best defensive team in the league. Hard to consistently best superior defenses.....when there aren't any actually superior to yours.

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I'm sure a stat you don't understand says they are the best defensive team in the league but they aren't

lol, please
01-04-2018, 01:38 PM
I'm sure a stat you don't understand says they are the best defensive team in the league but they aren'tI understand every stat out there I'm current with advanced analytics across all major sports, nice try though.

At best you'd show me a singular stat that has another team currently 1st, which shouldn't be hard to do. Just like the Warriors are far and away the best team and might not hold 1st place in the conference the whole season, they are also the best defensive team without topping individual metrics throughout a whole season. Our defense has been top 1-7 for the last 6 years or so. That consistency and body of work earns you the benefit of the doubt.

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Scoots
01-05-2018, 11:04 AM
How would u feel about reply being used more? maybe coaches receiving 2-3 challenges. Have a 4th official at the scores table already reviewing everything to speed up the process. ( I've always thought it was stupid for the officials on the court to review plays.)

I've actually proposed the challenge thing myself, and every challenge costs a timeout. No need to have the review ref at the table, they can be in NY and the refs on the floor can get the answer in seconds. This idea that the ref on the floor has to be the final arbiter is silly.