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canzano55
12-08-2017, 12:09 PM
What an interesting turn of events.

More than a quarter of the season done and the West coast is mostly trash or overrated garbage.

Biggest disappointments:

OKC
Wolves (they're better than the Spurs on paper at least)
Clippers (surprise surprise)
Pelicans

If you look at head-to-head numbers they're about even almost.

Time for west coast fans to eat crow.

mightybosstone
12-08-2017, 12:25 PM
I admit I was wrong about the quality of the Eastern Conference teams and the superiority of the West. Hell, I've already said it multiple times on this thread, so I'm happy to eat crow. If anything, a more talented East is better for the league, better for fans and better for pretty much anyone who gives a damn about basketball, so I'll happily line up for a few more plates of crow.

And how many people were predicting just how much better the East's talent was going to get? Simmons is a lock for RoY, Giannis has locked himself into the top 5 player conversation and Embiid, Porzingis and Kyrie have all inserted themselves into the top 10 conversation. Hell, who would have expected that Toronto and Detroit would be this much better?

That being said, it's still really early in the season. Kawhi hasn't played a game of basketball, and once he comes back, there's a strong possibility we could have three 60+ win teams in the same conference. Throw on top of that the fact that the conference got some ridiculously talented teams still figuring out how to play together (OKC, Minnesota, New Orleans) and some teams that have dealt with major injuries (Denver, Utah, Clippers) and it's easy to understand why there aren't more teams playing better.

I think once guys get healthy, we'll start to see the West win more games against the East and take over as the more dominant conference. But the difference between the two is far slimmer than anyone could have anticipated.

Hawkeye15
12-08-2017, 12:39 PM
I have been saying for some time the west is getting weaker. But that tends to happen when they are picking at the *** end of the draft for 15 years, outside the obvious cellar dwellers (my Wolves, Kings, etc).

Congrats to the Eastern Conference teams that have been getting lottery picks since the late 90's, some of you actually didn't fail at your jobs!

FlashBolt
12-08-2017, 12:45 PM
More to do with teams still adapting than anything, IMO.

Vee-Rex
12-08-2017, 12:47 PM
The consolidation of talent is pretty noticeable too. Clippers lost CP3 and aren't the same, while the Rockets are strengthened. Memphis is getting older.

While that doesn't seem like much, those were two strong West teams (Grizz/Clips) of the last 5 or so years.

Jamiecballer
12-08-2017, 12:47 PM
the east is still garbage but the more stars that crowd one conference the more dysfunction that occurs. this isn't news. and the fewer stars the better the team play. also not new. everyone in the east is playing make a career or keep one going. but the talent disparity is ****ing enormous.

Jamiecballer
12-08-2017, 12:48 PM
More to do with teams still adapting than anything, IMO.
precisely. although there is a good chance some will not be able to.

GoferKing_
12-08-2017, 12:49 PM
I'm here. East still garbage dude.

canzano55
12-08-2017, 12:58 PM
the east is still garbage but the more stars that crowd one conference the more dysfunction that occurs. this isn't news. and the fewer stars the better the team play. also not new. everyone in the east is playing make a career or keep one going. but the talent disparity is ****ing enormous.

What you're saying doesn't make sense.

East is still garbage because less overall talent = better team play < West coast more overall talent = suspect team play.

I thought basketball was a team sport? I must be missing something...

FlashBolt
12-08-2017, 01:18 PM
What you're saying doesn't make sense.

East is still garbage because less overall talent = better team play < West coast more overall talent = suspect team play.

I thought basketball was a team sport? I must be missing something...

He means that there's dysfunction going on in the West where teams are injured/adjusting to the new talent. Sometimes, more talent takes time to fit. I still believe West to be vastly superior (particularly in the playoffs) but don't get me wrong, East has improved. I mean, you take a look at some of the EC teams and you honestly think they're better than the Pelicans or OKC? Maybe they are but I still think West just needs more time. They have the REAL contenders.

hugepatsfan
12-08-2017, 01:35 PM
The West is still better throughout. GS is obviously better than the top dawg in the East, regardless of who you think that is.

The West is definitely a deeper conference. The teams from the 7 or so seed down in the West are better than the East.

I think people always overrated how much better the West was 2-6 though.

Scoots
12-08-2017, 04:31 PM
No crow to eat here ... I thought people were undervaluing the East because the East adds top draft talent every year and there are some really well run teams that were improving and the talent the east lost wasn't doing all that well before they left. That said, I am disappointing in the way some western teams have been performing.

tredigs
12-08-2017, 04:36 PM
West has had the better record than the East 18 of the last 19 seasons. Early all the top players in the NBA still reside jn the West.

Let's go ahead and see at least a half decade of dominance (in both records and members of the All NBA teams) before the East fans get on the **** talking train here.

lol, please
12-08-2017, 09:49 PM
More to do with teams still adapting than anything, IMO.Basically this

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

lol, please
12-08-2017, 09:49 PM
West has had the better record than the East 18 of the last 19 seasons. Early all the top players in the NBA still reside jn the West.

Let's go ahead and see at least a half decade of dominance (in both records and members of the All NBA teams) before the East fans get on the **** talking train here.Well said

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
12-08-2017, 09:58 PM
What you're saying doesn't make sense.

East is still garbage because less overall talent = better team play < West coast more overall talent = suspect team play.

I thought basketball was a team sport? I must be missing something...I was going to say a whole bunch of stuff but you are a raptor fan so this should resonate. The Eastern conference is the Raptors, the Western conference is the Kings, and all the talent crossing over to the west is Rudy Gay

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Jamiecballer
12-08-2017, 10:02 PM
Another microcosm for what I'm saying is the Knicks.

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nastynice
12-09-2017, 01:23 PM
They still got a ways to go. Only a couple years removed from the 2nd seed in the east being a non playoff team in the west

Nice trend tho, definitely up and comers out East

IndyRealist
12-10-2017, 04:24 PM
As of Monday, the East was 72-67 against the West.

As of today, the West has one sub .500 team in playoff position, and one team at .500. Every East playoff team is above .500.

Leftcoast_yg
12-10-2017, 04:46 PM
I'm here. East still garbage dude.
Yeah, east still garbage downy.

effen5
12-10-2017, 05:29 PM
East is still trash wtf...?

tp13baby
12-11-2017, 07:55 AM
As of Monday, the East was 72-67 against the West.

As of today, the West has one sub .500 team in playoff position, and one team at .500. Every East playoff team is above .500.

I swear we have this conversation every so often but at the end of the season the east seems to have 2 or so teams that make the playoffs that donít deserve and the west bottom dwellers are still better.

cheetos185
12-11-2017, 08:38 AM
Talking about east being in the lotto more well last year the suns, lakers, kings 2x, Minny and Dal were picking lottery. A year before that it was lakers, suns minny, pels, kings, denver again more west teams than east. 2015 was the year their were more lotto teams from east but considering everyone outside of KP/Towns/Russell looks like a bust so far i would say the west ended up with better lotto talent again. So quit this whining of east having more lotto teams than west the only east teams consistently picking in the lotto last 5 years is Phi and Orlando meanwhile west has suns, kings, lakers, minny and they still suck.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2017, 12:14 PM
Talking about east being in the lotto more well last year the suns, lakers, kings 2x, Minny and Dal were picking lottery. A year before that it was lakers, suns minny, pels, kings, denver again more west teams than east. 2015 was the year their were more lotto teams from east but considering everyone outside of KP/Towns/Russell looks like a bust so far i would say the west ended up with better lotto talent again. So quit this whining of east having more lotto teams than west the only east teams consistently picking in the lotto last 5 years is Phi and Orlando meanwhile west has suns, kings, lakers, minny and they still suck.

well, when the east was jacking in a sub .500 team or two into the playoffs, they weren't technically picking in the lottery. In the mid 2000's, if you didn't win 48-ish games, you weren't even making the playoffs out west. So you have to look at the strength of the conference.

canzano55
12-11-2017, 12:24 PM
I was going to say a whole bunch of stuff but you are a raptor fan so this should resonate. The Eastern conference is the Raptors, the Western conference is the Kings, and all the talent crossing over to the west is Rudy Gay

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using TapatalkYou must have been absent from the main board during all the big trades or else you wouldn't be questioning the narrative of my thread.

In the context of people in NBA boards all over the web crowing how "all the talent has left the East coast and as a result the East is more of a joke than ever before" etc well its looking like the West coast is the joke.

Beyond GSW, Houston and San Antonio the West is mostly a heap of garbage which is a far cry from what people assumed less than 3 or 4 months ago.

Let me spell it out in case anyone is confused; the theme of the thread is: I.R.O.N.Y.

Merry Christmas.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 12:32 PM
well, when the east was jacking in a sub .500 team or two into the playoffs, they weren't technically picking in the lottery. In the mid 2000's, if you didn't win 48-ish games, you weren't even making the playoffs out west. So you have to look at the strength of the conference.

This definitely wasn't the case every year, but yeah, I am STILL bummed we did not get to see the repeat of the 'We Believe' Warriors in the West. That was a 48 win team (and incredibly entertaining with huge upset potential) who would have been HCA over the Cavs if they were in the East. Meanwhile the Cavs are pulling in the 8 seed with 37 wins lol. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah, that's when you really see what it means to be a Western Conference team over the past couple decades.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2017, 12:33 PM
East talent level still much weaker even if the team results are somewhat even.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 12:39 PM
To drive this home further, since the year 2000, 14 of the 18 #1 picks have gone to the East (As many to Cleveland as the West combined). I'd sure hope they'd eventually show some signs of catching up.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2017, 12:46 PM
Quite a few of those guys went West in their prime years.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 12:50 PM
Quite a few of those guys went West in their prime years.

Of the #1 picks? Examples?

Ahriman
12-11-2017, 12:57 PM
There were some freak injuries that killed the momentum for some teams too (Rose led Bulls, George led Pacers) even if Bulls somehow managed to sustain above .500 play

But overall west does a better at scouting and at building teams

Ahriman
12-11-2017, 12:59 PM
Of the #1 picks? Examples?

Anthony Bennett to Minny ! :)

IndyRealist
12-11-2017, 01:06 PM
Anthony Bennett to Minny ! :)

4 #1 picks went West in the last 10 years (Towns, Wiggins, Davis, Griffin) 6 went East, but that includes Bennett and Rose.

Jamiecballer
12-11-2017, 01:21 PM
You must have been absent from the main board during all the big trades or else you wouldn't be questioning the narrative of my thread.

In the context of people in NBA boards all over the web crowing how "all the talent has left the East coast and as a result the East is more of a joke than ever before" etc well its looking like the West coast is the joke.

Beyond GSW, Houston and San Antonio the West is mostly a heap of garbage which is a far cry from what people assumed less than 3 or 4 months ago.

Let me spell it out in case anyone is confused; the theme of the thread is: I.R.O.N.Y.

Merry Christmas.No, I get it. The talent migration to the west is undeniable. I gave you an explanation for why the knee jerk reaction you are having is just that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using Tapatalk

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2017, 01:23 PM
Of the #1 picks? Examples?

Wiggins didn't even suit up for the Cavs. Howard, Bogut, Kenyon, etc spent their mid to late 20s there too but injuries took a toll on them. Guys like Bennett and Kwame spent their first 3-4 seasons in both conferences so it's really a wash.

Sometimes it's misleading too because even if they didn't get the 1st overall pick, they may have a lot of teams in the top 5 in 1 conference. 2007 had 4 out of 5 West teams in the top 5 lottery. The top 7 picks in 2009 were West teams (where Blake, Curry, Harden all came from so 3 top 10-15 players while East has Demar to show for it, who might not even be top 30). East have had some situations where they had a lot of picks in the first 5-7 picks but those are weak drafts (like 2013 with Bennett going #1).

tredigs
12-11-2017, 01:56 PM
Wiggins didn't even suit up for the Cavs. Howard, Bogut, Kenyon, etc spent their mid to late 20s there too but injuries took a toll on them. Guys like Bennett and Kwame spent their first 3-4 seasons in both conferences so it's really a wash.

Sometimes it's misleading too because even if they didn't get the 1st overall pick, they may have a lot of teams in the top 5 in 1 conference. 2007 had 4 out of 5 West teams in the top 5 lottery. The top 7 picks in 2009 were West teams (where Blake, Curry, Harden all came from so 3 top 10-15 players while East has Demar to show for it, who might not even be top 30). East have had some situations where they had a lot of picks in the first 5-7 picks but those are weak drafts (like 2013 with Bennett going #1).

OK. Wiggins did not play for the Cavs, but they got a proven win-now commodity in return, thus elevating the East currently more than if he did stay in Cleveland.

Howard spent 8 years on the Magic and was the only reason they were relevant for a period of time. By the time he went West he was a shell of his prime self and the Magic fell into obscurity (averaging something like 28 win seasons since losing their jackpot hit).

Bogut's prime was all in the East. He was serviceable for Golden State, but injuries had clearly left him as a shell of his prime play in Milwaukee.

Kenyon Martin came into the league as a 23 year old impact player. He had his most productive seasons in New Jersey and was a key part of their Finals teams. That was his prime.

So in reality the East got the best version of all of those #1 picks.

Overall the West has drafted and cultivated their players better, yes, but that's because by and large they have the better run organizations.

In the East, the only really well run organizations have been Boston, Miami and Toronto. Then on the outside looking in maybe Indiana and Atlanta. I can't give Philly too much credit for simply attempting to sabotage half a decade in order to stock-pile picks in order to try to hit gold every year. Cleveland simply lucked out in getting 'Bron + all the other #1's. In the West you have the consistently best run organization in San Antonio and maybe the current best run in Golden State, with the Rockets not far behind. OKC, Dallas and Memphis are very well run. Utah and Portland are well run. The Lakers minus Buss took a huge hit, but they were there for most of the past 2 decades. And hell even a poorly run team like the Clippers were extremely competitive and relevant for better part of this decade due to their talent (something as you know the West also has had the vast majority of despite the #1 picks going the other way).

That's why the West has been better than the East every season.

IndyRealist
12-11-2017, 02:39 PM
East vs. West: The East is 84-79 (.515) against the West in interconference games after going 12-12 last week.

FlashBolt
12-11-2017, 02:43 PM
East vs. West: The East is 84-79 (.515) against the West in interconference games after going 12-12 last week.

What was the % for last season? Probably under 40%.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 02:52 PM
So the East is +5 right now, which is nothing (with the West having the top-2 Title Contenders and the majority of the top-20 talent). At this time last year the East was ahead as well, but then we saw a regression to the mean and the West was easily better overall in the end. Here's how the past couple decades have gone.




Season Conf. Reg. season Champion
2016-17 West Plus 42 Golden State (West)
2015-16 West Plus 14 Cleveland (East)
2014-15 West Plus 76 Golden State (West)
2013-14 West Plus 118 San Antonio (West)
2012-13 West Plus 74 Miami (East)
2011-12 West Plus 42 Miami (East)
2010-11 West Plus 72 Dallas (West)
2009-10 West Plus 42 LA Lakers (West)
2008-09 East Plus 12 LA Lakers (West)
2007-08 West Plus 66 Boston (East)
2006-07 West Plus 64 San Antonio (West)
2005-06 West Plus 54 Miami (East)
2004-05 West Plus 62 San Antonio (West)
2003-04 West Plus 112 Detroit (East)
2002-03 West Plus 80 San Antonio (West)
2001-02 West Plus 44 LA Lakers (West)
2000-01 West Plus 98 LA Lakers (West)
1999-00 West Plus 34 LA Lakers (West)
1998-99 East Plus 8 San Antonio (West)



That's a +916 in that time frame and an average of >48 wins ahead each season, with 13 of the 19 Champions coming out of the West in the Post-Jordan NBA.

The +5 so far this season is cute though.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2017, 03:17 PM
OK. Wiggins did not play for the Cavs, but they got a proven win-now commodity in return, thus elevating the East currently more than if he did stay in Cleveland.

Howard spent 8 years on the Magic and was the only reason they were relevant for a period of time. By the time he went West he was a shell of his prime self and the Magic fell into obscurity (averaging something like 28 win seasons since losing their jackpot hit).

Bogut's prime was all in the East. He was serviceable for Golden State, but injuries had clearly left him as a shell of his prime play in Milwaukee.

Kenyon Martin came into the league as a 23 year old impact player. He had his most productive seasons in New Jersey and was a key part of their Finals teams. That was his prime.

So in reality the East got the best version of all of those #1 picks.

Overall the West has drafted and cultivated their players better, yes, but that's because by and large they have the better run organizations.

In the East, the only really well run organizations have been Boston, Miami and Toronto. Then on the outside looking in maybe Indiana and Atlanta. I can't give Philly too much credit for simply attempting to sabotage half a decade in order to stock-pile picks in order to try to hit gold every year. Cleveland simply lucked out in getting 'Bron + all the other #1's. In the West you have the consistently best run organization in San Antonio and maybe the current best run in Golden State, with the Rockets not far behind. OKC, Dallas and Memphis are very well run. Utah and Portland are well run. The Lakers minus Buss took a huge hit, but they were there for most of the past 2 decades. And hell even a poorly run team like the Clippers were extremely competitive and relevant for better part of this decade due to their talent (something as you know the West also has had the vast majority of despite the #1 picks going the other way).

That's why the West has been better than the East every season.

Howard wasnt a shell of his former self when he went to the West. He became a shell once he was already in the west. And Bogut's most valuable seasons were with GS.

Ecen then, you ignored the main point. Discussing who got the number 1 pick means nothing if you dont consider the top 5-7 picks in the daft and how deep the draft was. You can combine 2000, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2013 draft with all those Eastern teams picking and it doesnt equate to that ****ing deep 2009 draft when you had 3 guys who won or finished top 3 in MVP, which happened to all come in the West.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 03:45 PM
Howard wasnt a shell of his former self when he went to the West. He became a shell once he was already in the west. And Bogut's most valuable seasons were with GS.

Ecen then, you ignored the main point. Discussing who got the number 1 pick means nothing if you dont consider the top 5-7 picks in the daft and how deep the draft was. You can combine 2000, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2013 draft with all those Eastern teams picking and it doesnt equate to that ****ing deep 2009 draft when you had 3 guys who won or finished top 3 in MVP, which happened to all come in the West.

In the NBA draft historically only the #1 pick is the "sure thing" (even still there are busts, but nothing remotely close to 2 and below). The #1 pick is where you find the 'Bron, the Simmons, the Wall, the Howard, etc (all the sure things). The '09 draft was an anomaly sure, but 4 of the top 7 picks that the West got before the East got on board were not significant game changers when it was all said and done (Thabeet #2 bust, Tyreke #4 fizzled, Rubio #5 never fully materialized, Flynn #6 bust). For later picks the East scored in that draft too. Teague, Holliday and Derozan are all hits that went East.

The '00 draft was weak but the only impact player (K Mart) went to the East and he spent his best years competing for titles in the East. In '04 the East/Orlando got Dwight who had far more impact for them than Blake Griffin ('07's #1) for example. In '05 two East teams could've had CP3 and chose against it (#1 went to Bogut, who yes obviously spent his prime years in Milwaukee. Golden State just got him in the best position to win... that is not the same as a players prime. And Howard also obviously spent the vast majority of his prime and all of his peak in Orlando. Kobe neutered him, but he still was not close to the years he had in Orlando). In '06 the Bulls had Lamarcus Aldridge with the 2nd pick but traded him for Tyrus Thomas. Whoops.

I mean you can see the common theme over the decades and accept that one conference is simply clearly better run than the other by and large, or you can pin it on the '09 draft. Up to you Raps. The East has had BY FAR the better lottery chances over this time-frame. They just ****ed it up more often than not.

Leftcoast_yg
12-11-2017, 03:47 PM
So the East is +5 right now, which is nothing (with the West having the top-2 Title Contenders and the majority of the top-20 talent). At this time last year the East was ahead as well, but then we saw a regression to the mean and the West was easily better overall in the end. Here's how the past couple decades have gone.




Season Conf. Reg. season Champion
2016-17 West Plus 42 Golden State (West)
2015-16 West Plus 14 Cleveland (East)
2014-15 West Plus 76 Golden State (West)
2013-14 West Plus 118 San Antonio (West)
2012-13 West Plus 74 Miami (East)
2011-12 West Plus 42 Miami (East)
2010-11 West Plus 72 Dallas (West)
2009-10 West Plus 42 LA Lakers (West)
2008-09 East Plus 12 LA Lakers (West)
2007-08 West Plus 66 Boston (East)
2006-07 West Plus 64 San Antonio (West)
2005-06 West Plus 54 Miami (East)
2004-05 West Plus 62 San Antonio (West)
2003-04 West Plus 112 Detroit (East)
2002-03 West Plus 80 San Antonio (West)
2001-02 West Plus 44 LA Lakers (West)
2000-01 West Plus 98 LA Lakers (West)
1999-00 West Plus 34 LA Lakers (West)
1998-99 East Plus 8 San Antonio (West)



That's a +916 in that time frame and an average of >48 wins ahead each season, with 13 of the 19 Champions coming out of the West in the Post-Jordan NBA.

The +5 so far this season is cute though.

Lmao way to shut these bums up. Nice post.

Giannis94
12-11-2017, 04:13 PM
what everyone forgets is that the east has the top 2 players in the game.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2017, 04:13 PM
In the NBA draft historically only the #1 pick is the "sure thing" (even still there are busts, but nothing remotely close to 2 and below). The #1 pick is where you find the 'Bron, the Simmons, the Wall, the Howard, etc (all the sure things). The '09 draft was an anomaly sure, but 4 of the top 7 picks that the West got before the East got on board were not significant game changers when it was all said and done (Thabeet #2 bust, Tyreke #4 fizzled, Rubio #5 never fully materialized, Flynn #6 bust). For later picks the East scored in that draft too. Teague, Holliday and Derozan are all hits that went East.

The '00 draft was weak but the only impact player (K Mart) went to the East and he spent his best years competing for titles in the East. In '04 the East/Orlando got Dwight who had far more impact for them than Blake Griffin ('07's #1) for example. In '05 two East teams could've had CP3 and chose against it (#1 went to Bogut, who yes obviously spent his prime years in Milwaukee. Golden State just got him in the best position to win... that is not the same as a players prime. And Howard also obviously spent the vast majority of his prime and all of his peak in Orlando. Kobe neutered him, but he still was not close to the years he had in Orlando). In '06 the Bulls had Lamarcus Aldridge with the 2nd pick but traded him for Tyrus Thomas. Whoops.

I mean you can see the common theme over the decades and accept that one conference is simply clearly better run than the other by and large, or you can pin it on the '09 draft. Up to you Raps. The East has had BY FAR the better lottery chances over this time-frame. They just ****ed it up more often than not.

Like you said, #1 is a "surefire" pick. So I'm telling you that if you're going to go an say the teams picked #1 and still messed up, it doesn't really have anything to do with being better run organization. It was more likely whether or not the talent in consideration for #1 was a franchise changing player. And clearly when the East picked, they had some ****** drafts so listing the #1 picks since 2000 means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Being better run has much more impact in the later rounds. So you probably should have listed the teams success in the 20-30 range instead of listing the #1 picks if you were trying to prove a point.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 04:27 PM
Like you said, #1 is a "surefire" pick. So I'm telling you that if you're going to go an say the teams picked #1 and still messed up, it doesn't really have anything to do with being better run organization. It was more likely whether or not the talent in consideration for #1 was a franchise changing player. And clearly when the East picked, they had some ****** drafts so listing the #1 picks since 2000 means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Being better run has much more impact in the later rounds. So you probably should have listed the teams success in the 20-30 range instead of listing the #1 picks if you were trying to prove a point.

You're entirely missing the point (and as I laid out are completely wrong that a number of #1 East picks in the past decades were traded in their prime). Having K-Mart as both your best example of this (and still wrong) while being your premier example of a **** draft is also not helping your cause.

The #1 pick is the best chance at a shift in team dominance despite a poorly run organization. And it proved so for the Magic, the Bulls for a period of time, the Cavs to this day (again having as many # 1 picks in the past 17 years as the West combined), and now the Sixers.

I did mention the later picks. That is where the top organizations find/cultivate the talent in the draft. That is part of the reason why the West is always better than the East despite all these #1's going there.

Do you maintain that the East is just worse than the West year after year due to bad luck? You want to talk about a lop-sided draft (and the main reason why the East has been relevant at all frankly), let's go to '03 where we had 4 of the top 5 picks going to the East, and it was 'Bron, Darko (whoops Detroit), Melo, Bosh and Wade. Again, the East - overall - has had the FAR better drafting opportunities. Still, they continue to come up short year after year. This is not a debate.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2017, 04:34 PM
So the East is +5 right now, which is nothing (with the West having the top-2 Title Contenders and the majority of the top-20 talent). At this time last year the East was ahead as well, but then we saw a regression to the mean and the West was easily better overall in the end. Here's how the past couple decades have gone.




Season Conf. Reg. season Champion
2016-17 West Plus 42 Golden State (West)
2015-16 West Plus 14 Cleveland (East)
2014-15 West Plus 76 Golden State (West)
2013-14 West Plus 118 San Antonio (West)
2012-13 West Plus 74 Miami (East)
2011-12 West Plus 42 Miami (East)
2010-11 West Plus 72 Dallas (West)
2009-10 West Plus 42 LA Lakers (West)
2008-09 East Plus 12 LA Lakers (West)
2007-08 West Plus 66 Boston (East)
2006-07 West Plus 64 San Antonio (West)
2005-06 West Plus 54 Miami (East)
2004-05 West Plus 62 San Antonio (West)
2003-04 West Plus 112 Detroit (East)
2002-03 West Plus 80 San Antonio (West)
2001-02 West Plus 44 LA Lakers (West)
2000-01 West Plus 98 LA Lakers (West)
1999-00 West Plus 34 LA Lakers (West)
1998-99 East Plus 8 San Antonio (West)



That's a +916 in that time frame and an average of >48 wins ahead each season, with 13 of the 19 Champions coming out of the West in the Post-Jordan NBA.

The +5 so far this season is cute though.

yeah, that settles that...

IndyRealist
12-11-2017, 04:41 PM
So the East is +5 right now, which is nothing (with the West having the top-2 Title Contenders and the majority of the top-20 talent). At this time last year the East was ahead as well, but then we saw a regression to the mean and the West was easily better overall in the end. Here's how the past couple decades have gone.




Season Conf. Reg. season Champion
2016-17 West Plus 42 Golden State (West)
2015-16 West Plus 14 Cleveland (East)
2014-15 West Plus 76 Golden State (West)
2013-14 West Plus 118 San Antonio (West)
2012-13 West Plus 74 Miami (East)
2011-12 West Plus 42 Miami (East)
2010-11 West Plus 72 Dallas (West)
2009-10 West Plus 42 LA Lakers (West)
2008-09 East Plus 12 LA Lakers (West)
2007-08 West Plus 66 Boston (East)
2006-07 West Plus 64 San Antonio (West)
2005-06 West Plus 54 Miami (East)
2004-05 West Plus 62 San Antonio (West)
2003-04 West Plus 112 Detroit (East)
2002-03 West Plus 80 San Antonio (West)
2001-02 West Plus 44 LA Lakers (West)
2000-01 West Plus 98 LA Lakers (West)
1999-00 West Plus 34 LA Lakers (West)
1998-99 East Plus 8 San Antonio (West)



That's a +916 in that time frame and an average of >48 wins ahead each season, with 13 of the 19 Champions coming out of the West in the Post-Jordan NBA.

The +5 so far this season is cute though.

Nobody's going to note that this thread is not about what happened in 1998? It's about what's happening this year. Everyone knows the West has been better. But they aren't right now.

That suspiciously smells like a strawman argument.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 04:51 PM
Nobody's going to note that this thread is not about what happened in 1998? It's about what's happening this year. Everyone knows the West has been better. But they aren't right now.

That suspiciously smells like a strawman argument.

This thread was started with a completely ignorant troll post devoid of any facts, for one. I attempted to take a broader look and showcase the history of these conferences and why the general convictions concerning them are what they are.

A +5 W/L is certainly not indicative of one conference clearly being better than another and frankly is just "noise" one way or the other depending on where the games are played, who has played them, etc. Especially considering that this was the also the case at this time last year (hint: did not last), and that the majority of the top talent and the top teams are in the West. Comprende?

IndyRealist
12-11-2017, 05:02 PM
This thread was started with a completely ignorant troll post devoid of any facts, for one. I attempted to take a broader look and showcase the history of these conferences and why the general convictions concerning them are what they are.

A +5 W/L is certainly not indicative of one conference clearly being better than another and frankly is just "noise" one way or the other depending on where the games are played, who has played them, etc. Especially considering that this was the also the case at this time last year (hint: did not last), and that the majority of the top talent and the top teams are in the West. Comprende?

The topic of the thread is "the East is not the weaker conference this year". That is a true statement. They are essentially even if you're looking past the top 4 teams.

You literally attacked a position no one stated.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2017, 05:15 PM
The topic of the thread is "the East is not the weaker conference this year". That is a true statement. They are essentially even if you're looking past the top 4 teams.

You literally attacked a position no one stated.

I think the sentiment is, "prove it for more than 25 games" when it comes to which is the better conference. The west has been more or less (many times much better) better for over 2 decades now. Let the east get through a season or two before we give them any real credit. Seriously. Didn't the east start out strong last year? It ended up plus 42 in the west's favor...

tredigs
12-11-2017, 05:22 PM
I think the sentiment is, "prove it for more than 25 games" when it comes to which is the better conference. The west has been more or less (many times much better) better for over 2 decades now. Let the east get through a season or two before we give them any real credit. Seriously. Didn't the east start out strong last year? It ended up plus 42 in the west's favor...

Exactly. You don't get the crown because of a smidge lead less than a quarter of the way through the season in 1 of the 3 main factors of conference dominance (of which they are still behind in 2 of the 3). It's stupid that we are even responding to this thread to be honest.

IndyRealist
12-11-2017, 05:49 PM
I think the sentiment is, "prove it for more than 25 games" when it comes to which is the better conference. The west has been more or less (many times much better) better for over 2 decades now. Let the east get through a season or two before we give them any real credit. Seriously. Didn't the east start out strong last year? It ended up plus 42 in the west's favor...

Again "right now". PSD is full of early overreactions. I don't know why this one is getting singled out.

Tre proved that the West has been better since 1998. Except no one is disputing that. He then uses that to say that to disprove what happened this year. That is a classic strawman argument.

IndyRealist
12-11-2017, 05:51 PM
Exactly. You don't get the crown because of a smidge lead less than a quarter of the way through the season in 1 of the 3 main factors of conference dominance (of which they are still behind in 2 of the 3). It's stupid that we are even responding to this thread to be honest.

100% agree. But no one said that. I said "the east doesn't suck this year". That's it. It's a true statement for the 25ish games that have happened.

Hawkeye15
12-11-2017, 06:11 PM
Again "right now". PSD is full of early overreactions. I don't know why this one is getting singled out.

Tre proved that the West has been better since 1998. Except no one is disputing that. He then uses that to say that to disprove what happened this year. That is a classic strawman argument.

I would like to point out my LeBron like efficiency in pointing these out :)

yeah man, we just need some more time before I buy it frankly.

valade16
12-11-2017, 06:30 PM
The East was +5 this time last year and went on to be -42 by the end of the season. You can see why people are hesitant to believe their current standings are predictive.

Vee-Rex
12-11-2017, 06:34 PM
OP is a bit premature. Wait a four or five more years for when the young dudes of the East take over the league.

tredigs
12-11-2017, 06:36 PM
100% agree. But no one said that. I said "the east doesn't suck this year". That's it. It's a true statement for the 25ish games that have happened.

And if they can sustain it through the year and for a few season on end, we might finally get a chance to halt the narrative and respect the East as an equal or better conference. But where we currently stand is a long ways away from that.

Raps18-19 Champ
12-11-2017, 06:37 PM
You're entirely missing the point (and as I laid out are completely wrong that a number of #1 East picks in the past decades were traded in their prime). Having K-Mart as both your best example of this (and still wrong) while being your premier example of a **** draft is also not helping your cause.

The #1 pick is the best chance at a shift in team dominance despite a poorly run organization. And it proved so for the Magic, the Bulls for a period of time, the Cavs to this day (again having as many # 1 picks in the past 17 years as the West combined), and now the Sixers.

I did mention the later picks. That is where the top organizations find/cultivate the talent in the draft. That is part of the reason why the West is always better than the East despite all these #1's going there.

Do you maintain that the East is just worse than the West year after year due to bad luck? You want to talk about a lop-sided draft (and the main reason why the East has been relevant at all frankly), let's go to '03 where we had 4 of the top 5 picks going to the East, and it was 'Bron, Darko (whoops Detroit), Melo, Bosh and Wade. Again, the East - overall - has had the FAR better drafting opportunities. Still, they continue to come up short year after year. This is not a debate.

My point was simple and clear. This was your post.


To drive this home further, since the year 2000, 14 of the 18 #1 picks have gone to the East (As many to Cleveland as the West combined). I'd sure hope they'd eventually show some signs of catching up.

All I said was even if the East had much more #1 picks, it adds no value to the discussion because even if they had more #1 opportunities, the amount of bad drafts the East had had during those drafts isn't considered in your post. Nor does in consider that these players continuously shift to the West. The #1 picks clearly got injured but the point was stars in general still go there. I just used #1 because that is what you used. I could have made the same point about #2 pick, etc.

So the whole "I'd sure hope they'd eventually catch up" just because they have the #1 fit is nothing more than a cute statement. We all know the West is better than the East. To make it as simple as possible, you wouldn't have made that last comment if you took context into the situation. That last sentence (and the post in general) added nothing, so you weren't driving anything home.

KB24PG16
12-11-2017, 06:39 PM
nba is pretty top heavy, I see a lot of sweeps happening in the 1st round in each conference.

Scoots
12-12-2017, 01:38 AM
The topic of the thread is "the East is not the weaker conference this year". That is a true statement. They are essentially even if you're looking past the top 4 teams.

You literally attacked a position no one stated.

Are you determining "the East is not the weaker conference this year" based ONLY on head to head record of an unbalanced schedule? And that's enough for you to draw a firm conclusion? When you say "this year" do you mean 2017 or do you mean the 2017-2018 NBA season?

Scoots
12-12-2017, 01:38 AM
nba is pretty top heavy, I see a lot of sweeps happening in the 1st round in each conference.

It looks like that, but doesn't happen that way often.

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 09:19 AM
Are you determining "the East is not the weaker conference this year" based ONLY on head to head record of an unbalanced schedule? And that's enough for you to draw a firm conclusion? When you say "this year" do you mean 2017 or do you mean the 2017-2018 NBA season?

If you go back and reread the posts, you'll see that I also referred to number of teams over .500. which is more evidence about THIS SEASON than anyone else has provided to the contrary.

Ahriman
12-12-2017, 09:43 AM
There will probably be a regression to the mean. Some East teams are overperforming compared to the expectations people had from them (BKN, IND, NYK..., ORL is regressing pretty hard lately) + some bad injuries out West (Kawhi, Millsap, Jokic, Griffin...)

It's just like the random player posting 50% ish 3-pts % through 15-20 games and then it deflates more or less back to his career average

Vinylman
12-12-2017, 09:49 AM
where can you track how the conferences are doing against each other?

can someone provide a link

cheetos185
12-12-2017, 10:18 AM
what everyone forgets is that the east has the top 2 players in the game.

Your right
1. Kristaps
2. Porzingis

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 11:39 AM
where can you track how the conferences are doing against each other?

can someone provide a link

Nba.com's weekly power rankings is where I'm getting head-to-head numbers.

nba.com/powerrankings/

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 11:44 AM
There will probably be a regression to the mean. Some East teams are overperforming compared to the expectations people had from them (BKN, IND, NYK..., ORL is regressing pretty hard lately) + some bad injuries out West (Kawhi, Millsap, Jokic, Griffin...)

It's just like the random player posting 50% ish 3-pts % through 15-20 games and then it deflates more or less back to his career average

That assumes people are accurate predictors, which they are not. There's a difference between looking at a historical 30% 3pt shooter who suddenly shoots 50% for 20 games, and trying to guess how lineup changes will affect a team's win total. One is data, the other is opinion.

Vinylman
12-12-2017, 12:08 PM
Nba.com's weekly power rankings is where I'm getting head-to-head numbers.

nba.com/powerrankings/

can't find it there...

is there some reason you can't post a direct link?

kdspurman
12-12-2017, 12:24 PM
can't find it there...

is there some reason you can't post a direct link?

Try here- http://www.nba.com/powerrankings#/

This shows East vs West by team

http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&VsConference=West&Conference=East

This shows West vs East by team

http://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=GP&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&VsConference=East&Conference=West

Ahriman
12-12-2017, 12:52 PM
That assumes people are accurate predictors, which they are not. There's a difference between looking at a historical 30% 3pt shooter who suddenly shoots 50% for 20 games, and trying to guess how lineup changes will affect a team's win total. One is data, the other is opinion.

Fair point on statistics vs record forecasts. There is however very rarely more than one or two surprising teams per year vs consensus forecast (ala Portland in 2013-14 improving by 18 games) which is why the sheer number of surprises we see early on is, imo, bound to reduce over time
I might very well be wrong though, let's see how it evolves

Scoots
12-12-2017, 02:01 PM
If you go back and reread the posts, you'll see that I also referred to number of teams over .500. which is more evidence about THIS SEASON than anyone else has provided to the contrary.

Okay ... you are drawing a final conclusion that the East is better this season based on ~30 games played? I say that because you were stating it as a fact ... that the East is better this year.

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 02:24 PM
Okay ... you are drawing a final conclusion that the East is better this season based on ~30 games played? I say that because you were stating it as a fact ... that the East is better this year.

The East is not weaker THIS SEASON which currently consists of 30ish games. That may change, it might not. This thread is about how the East is CURRENTLY competitive, not about projecting the end-of-year results. It's certainly not about what happened in 1998, which was a counter argument.

Vinylman
12-12-2017, 02:50 PM
The East is not weaker THIS SEASON which currently consists of 30ish games. That may change, it might not. This thread is about how the East is CURRENTLY competitive, not about projecting the end-of-year results. It's certainly not about what happened in 1998, which was a counter argument.

just so I understand... the analysis you are putting forth is that the west is weaker because the head to head conference records has the east ahead in wins/losses?

If that is the extent of the analysis what is the point of the thread?

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 03:14 PM
just so I understand... the analysis you are putting forth is that the west is weaker because the head to head conference records has the east ahead in wins/losses?
If that is the extent of the analysis what is the point of the thread?

1. Not my thread
2. Head to head
3. # of teams over .500, the West currently has a sub .500 team in playoff position, the East does not. This has ALWAYS been considered a marker of the strength of a conference.
4. I never said the West is weaker. I said they are about even, which is a far cry from "the East is weaker" which is the meme.
5. No one's providing evidence to the contrary, about this year

Giannis94
12-12-2017, 04:22 PM
Your right
1. Kristaps
2. Porzingis

Lol. lemme guess, THJ is also a star, right? New Yaka logic for ya.

Scoots
12-12-2017, 05:41 PM
Nobody's going to note that this thread is not about what happened in 1998? It's about what's happening this year. Everyone knows the West has been better. But they aren't right now.

That suspiciously smells like a strawman argument.


1. Not my thread
2. Head to head
3. # of teams over .500, the West currently has a sub .500 team in playoff position, the East does not. This has ALWAYS been considered a marker of the strength of a conference.
4. I never said the West is weaker. I said they are about even, which is a far cry from "the East is weaker" which is the meme.
5. No one's providing evidence to the contrary, about this year

But you said multiple times that the East is not weaker this year and implied you meant this season and you said it as a conclusion. We're not talking about right now, but this season right? Which means you are saying you either think the West is at best the equal of the East and you are projecting the rest of the regular season going similar. I know it's not your thread which is why I wonder why are you choosing to die on this hill.

Clearly it's too early to draw ANY conclusions which is what I've been trying to get you to address.

valade16
12-12-2017, 06:10 PM
From the Power Rankings link:

East vs. West: The East is 84-79 (.515) against the West in interconference games after going 12-12 last week.

So the East went 72-67 prior to their 12-12 week.

Before that they were:

63-59 because they went 9-8 the previous week.

The week before they went 9-11, so they were 54-48 prior to that.

So they started 54-48 and the past 3 weeks they've gone 30-31.

Seems like they are already slowly beginning to regress.

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 07:03 PM
But you said multiple times that the East is not weaker this year and implied you meant this season and you said it as a conclusion. We're not talking about right now, but this season right? Which means you are saying you either think the West is at best the equal of the East and you are projecting the rest of the regular season going similar. I know it's not your thread which is why I wonder why are you choosing to die on this hill.

Clearly it's too early to draw ANY conclusions which is what I've been trying to get you to address.

I'm confused how you think saying "this season" means "at the end of this season". We're in the middle of it. I'm not predicting, I'm stating the data.

IndyRealist
12-12-2017, 07:04 PM
From the Power Rankings link:

East vs. West: The East is 84-79 (.515) against the West in interconference games after going 12-12 last week.

So the East went 72-67 prior to their 12-12 week.

Before that they were:

63-59 because they went 9-8 the previous week.

The week before they went 9-11, so they were 54-48 prior to that.

So they started 54-48 and the past 3 weeks they've gone 30-31.

Seems like they are already slowly beginning to regress.

Or the conferences are about even. Like I said.