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JasonJohnHorn
12-04-2017, 10:57 PM
When the Pacers gave up PG for 'next to nothing', most expected the team to take a hard hit and go lottery mode. They're on pace to eclipse the 42-win mark they hit last season.

Last year the Knicks were in the doldrums. Without Melo, most expected the Knicks would have to 'trust the process'.

They are on pace to get over .500 and make the post season.


Both teams have a long road ahead of them, but they are both playing well despite losing franchise players and essentially taking role players back.


The Thunder, however, who were a winning team last season (47 wins in the west), are struggling to even get to .500.


Was this a case of addition through subtraction? Or subtraction through addition?

Can you think of other instances where teams lost franchise or all-star players and actually got better?

tp13baby
12-04-2017, 11:02 PM
Westbrook is a high usage guy as well as PG. still think PG can play off ball but Melo doesn’t know what defense is and usually a low efficiency guy.

Storch
12-04-2017, 11:24 PM
Cant force Melo or George to be able to play offball like klay and steph.

ManningToTyree
12-05-2017, 03:57 AM
The Knicks will come back down to earth but they are certainly no worse without Melo then they were with him. Ditching the triangle can't be overlooked either

Heediot
12-05-2017, 04:06 AM
I can see a strong case for Melo. But PG can adapt to his team and be a nice contributor anywhere.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 09:32 AM
Simple. Both players are overrated. Been saying it for years. I tried to trade PG for Jimmy Butler and everyone thought I was crazy. I tries to trade PG for Hayward, for Kenneth Faried, etc.

That's not to say either is a BAD player, they just aren't where people think they are. They sure LOOK impressive, but that's why the eye test is a load of crap.

Driven
12-05-2017, 09:35 AM
I think both the Knicks and Pacers will slightly come back to earth, and I fully expect the Thunder to be a top 5 seed or so in the West. I really like what the Pacers are doing, though. Both the Knicks and Pacers are better off where they are now, IMO.

ewing
12-05-2017, 10:01 AM
Saying the Pacers got next to nothing is false. Sabonis and Victor are both very good players whose numbers were held back b/c Westbrook is ball dominate and they duplicated other good players already on the Thunder (Adams and Westbrook).

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 10:15 AM
Saying the Pacers got next to nothing is false. Sabonis and Victor are both very good players whose numbers were held back b/c Westbrook is ball dominate and they duplicated other good players already on the Thunder (Adams and Westbrook).

True or not, that was the narrative this summer. The Pacers got the least return for trading their star.

ewing
12-05-2017, 10:16 AM
True or not, that was the narrative this summer. The Pacers got the least return for trading their star.

repeating a false narrative doesn't bring it credence.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 10:40 AM
repeating a false narrative doesn't bring it credence.

The whole point of this thread is why it was a false narrative this summer.

ewing
12-05-2017, 10:44 AM
The whole point of this thread is why it was a false narrative this summer.

Not if you subscribe to the addition by subtraction theory. That would be saying the Pacers got better bc unloading PG gave opportunity to guys already present.


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IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 10:50 AM
Not if you subscribe to the addition by subtraction theory. That would be saying the Pacers got better bc unloading PG gave opportunity to guys already present.


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I guess. PG and Dipo were always going to break even, people just thought PG was better.

ewing
12-05-2017, 10:56 AM
I guess. PG and Dipo were always going to break even, people just thought PG was better.

I don’t know about even value but I do think those guys are significantly better then a lot of people thought. I was a big victor fan in Orlando and thought he was underrated in OKC. I’m also pretty sure me and Scoots were leading the Sabonis bandwagon around here


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Heediot
12-05-2017, 11:13 AM
I guess. PG and Dipo were always going to break even, people just thought PG was better.

Maybe for the regular season it might be close. I think PG can win you a few games by himself in the playoffs, as long as it's not Cleveland in the East. Dipo looked bad in the playoffs last year, but he laso didn't look as good in the regular season neither so I'll give him some benefit of the doubt. PG did have a relatively subpar post season last year, he started strong in the series and faded.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 11:21 AM
I don’t know about even value but I do think those guys are significantly better then a lot of people thought. I was a big victor fan in Orlando and thought he was underrated in OKC. I’m also pretty sure me and Scoots were leading the Sabonis bandwagon around here


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Sabonis was a wildcard in the trade bc he was so young, but he was my draft choice last year. This is what I wrote elsewhere.


Domatas Sabonis, Sophomore, Gonzaga, 6’10” 231lbs PF/C

Pros:
Extremely efficient, high volume post up player in a post-centric offense
Aggressive, high energy rebounder
Polished post up game, good footwork, finishes with either hand
Plays extremely high level basketball in Euroleague
Good jumpshooter on VERY small sample size. Slow, methodical release

Cons:
Average frame and length
Average athleticism
Decent man defender, but not a shot blocker

For the Pacers: Finesse post up player with a chip on his shoulder. Plays below the rim, but does it well. Think prime Luis Scola or maybe a poor man's Pau Gasol. He can run the floor and would let Turner float on the perimeter, which is where he wants to be on offense anyway.

Heediot
12-05-2017, 11:25 AM
Sabonis was a wildcard in the trade bc he was so young, but he was my draft choice last year. This is what I wrote elsewhere.

I was also a big fan of he kid too. wanted the raps to draft him but poelt is looking better for them and contributing his year so no regrets for them. I liked his motor and offensive upside coming into the league.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 11:30 AM
Maybe for the regular season it might be close. I think PG can win you a few games by himself in the playoffs, as long as it's not Cleveland in the East. Dipo looked bad in the playoffs last year, but he laso didn't look as good in the regular season neither so I'll give him some benefit of the doubt. PG did have a relatively subpar post season last year, he started strong in the series and faded.

PG's entire problem is his approach to the game. He has all the tools to be Kawhi, but if you think iso 20ft contested fadeaways are good shots, then you are closer to Evan Turner than you are to Kevin Durant.

FlashBolt
12-05-2017, 11:33 AM
PG's entire problem is his approach to the game. He has all the tools to be Kawhi, but if you think iso 20ft contested fadeaways are good shots, then you are closer to Evan Turner than you are to Kevin Durant.

I doubt he takes those shots if he was being brought up by Pop, though. Good players on bad teams develop bad habits.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 11:43 AM
I doubt he takes those shots if he was being brought up by Pop, though. Good players on bad teams develop bad habits.

You can say that about every "could've been". Ultimately it's up to him to understand what his weaknesses are and correct them. But he doesn't see it as a weakness. A whole generation of players saw Jordan, Kobe do it in highlights and think that's how the game should be played. Well, Jordan played against a different set of rules, and Kobe may be the all time great at taking bad shots. PG does not have the work ethic like Kobe to make it work.

ewing
12-05-2017, 11:50 AM
PG's entire problem is his approach to the game. He has all the tools to be Kawhi, but if you think iso 20ft contested fadeaways are good shots, then you are closer to Evan Turner than you are to Kevin Durant.

I’ve always been blown away by PG’s tool set. I think a lot people who don’t get to see him every day are. Thanks for the up close perspective


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FlashBolt
12-05-2017, 12:28 PM
You can say that about every "could've been". Ultimately it's up to him to understand what his weaknesses are and correct them. But he doesn't see it as a weakness. A whole generation of players saw Jordan, Kobe do it in highlights and think that's how the game should be played. Well, Jordan played against a different set of rules, and Kobe may be the all time great at taking bad shots. PG does not have the work ethic like Kobe to make it work.

So you don't think having a good coach in a better system of sharing the ball doesn't have an influence early on at their career?? I thought we were comparing PG to Kawhi. Where does Jordan and Kobe even come from?

ewing
12-05-2017, 12:30 PM
So you don't think having a good coach in a better system of sharing the ball doesn't have an influence early on at their career?? I thought we were comparing PG to Kawhi. Where does Jordan and Kobe even come from?

I don’t think he said that at all


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IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 12:45 PM
So you don't think having a good coach in a better system of sharing the ball doesn't have an influence early on at their career?? I thought we were comparing PG to Kawhi. Where does Jordan and Kobe even come from?

If you don't know why Kobe and Jordan come up when talking about PGs poor shot selection, you should get to know your players better, man. Hell, just go back and reread what I've written about PG in the last half decade. I'm remarkably consistent.

FlashBolt
12-05-2017, 12:47 PM
If you don't know why Kobe and Jordan come up when talking about PGs poor shot selection, you should get to know your players better, man. Hell, just go back and reread what I've written about PG in the last half decade. I'm remarkably consistent.

I don't care to. I actually have to make it a point not to quote you because it ends up being a back-and-forth pointless discussion. Players being brought up at a young age into a system for years will develop bad habits. You look at some of the guys Pop has coached and they end up taking those great habits into other teams. Take a look at George Hill. How about Jonathan Simmons? Is PG's shot selection poor? Probably. But that's what you get when you stick a player into a team that requires him to be the focal point of an offense consistently. LeBron credited his unselfishness from his High School coach. Again, I don't care about what MJ and Kobe does. I'm talking about PG being on a team that really never emphasized taking the smart shots. You're comparing PG to Kawhi and then turn 180 and bring up two completely different players on TWO completely different systems of basketball. Literally makes no sense.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 12:58 PM
I don't care to. I actually have to make it a point not to quote you because it ends up being a back-and-forth pointless discussion. Players being brought up at a young age into a system for years will develop bad habits. You look at some of the guys Pop has coached and they end up taking those great habits into other teams. Take a look at George Hill. How about Jonathan Simmons? Is PG's shot selection poor? Probably. But that's what you get when you stick a player into a team that requires him to be the focal point of an offense consistently. LeBron credited his unselfishness from his High School coach. Again, I don't care about what MJ and Kobe does. I'm talking about PG being on a team that really never emphasized taking the smart shots. You're comparing PG to Kawhi and then turn 180 and bring up two completely different players on TWO completely different systems of basketball. Literally makes no sense.

Then you don't know the first thing about the Pacers under Frank Vogel. You're making all kinds of wild assumptions about the play style. You have no idea why he is the player he is. You're just making sh$+ up.

FlashBolt
12-05-2017, 01:00 PM
Then you don't know the first thing about the Pacers under Frank Vogel. You're making all kinds of wild assumptions about the play style. You have no idea why he is the player he is. You're just making sh$+ up.

Frank Vogel is a defensive coach during PG's time there. They were poor in scoring. It's why Danny Granger's absence forced PG to become their main scorer. You're the one who is out of touch, buddy. I guess I'm "debating" with the same person who thought Dwight was a better scorer than Paul Milsap. Yeah, totally. And tell me more about how Dwight gets more rebounds than a PF who is spacing the floor. I am interested in more basketball intellect from you.

ewing
12-05-2017, 01:05 PM
^^^ you ok?


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IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 01:23 PM
Frank Vogel is a defensive coach during PG's time there. They were poor in scoring. It's why Danny Granger's absence forced PG to become their main scorer. You're the one who is out of touch, buddy. I guess I'm "debating" with the same person who thought Dwight was a better scorer than Paul Milsap. Yeah, totally. And tell me more about how Dwight gets more rebounds than a PF who is spacing the floor. I am interested in more basketball intellect from you.
Before the playoffs began last season, Indiana Pacers Coach Frank Vogel was asked who he thought could be the team’s go-to player in crunch time, with a postseason game on the line. “Our depth,” Vogel responded.

While the rest of the league snickered, or scratched its head, Vogel maintained his belief in balance and depth, the way a conservative investor might construct a portfolio.

Vogel also might as well have taken a hole puncher to conventional theory in the N.B.A., a superstar-driven league grown increasingly top-heavy, fueled by the principle that one or two or three megawatt mainstays are required for success.

“The open man is our go-to guy,” Vogel said. “Our starting lineup in particular has five guys out there that can make plays in a number of different ways. That’s the beauty of our team.”

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 01:24 PM
“The greatest player to ever play this game was a midrange jump shooter in Michael Jordan,” George continued. “At that time no one had nothing to say. It’s about what’s best for that player and what’s the skill set of that player. We have a lot of guys who are more than capable at shooting well from the midrange.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 01:30 PM
Paul George spent the last several years breaking the offense and going iso as much as he possibly could. He thinks that's how the game is supposed to be played. He did not develop that on a "bad team", as evidenced by the quotes on the system and his own quotes. Paul thought he knew better and no one was telling him different. Just like when Larry Bird wanted him to play PF and he refused, resulting in years long injuries to 6'6" cj miles.

You are full of crap, man.

FlashBolt
12-05-2017, 01:30 PM
Before the playoffs began last season, Indiana Pacers Coach Frank Vogel was asked who he thought could be the team’s go-to player in crunch time, with a postseason game on the line. “Our depth,” Vogel responded.

While the rest of the league snickered, or scratched its head, Vogel maintained his belief in balance and depth, the way a conservative investor might construct a portfolio.

Vogel also might as well have taken a hole puncher to conventional theory in the N.B.A., a superstar-driven league grown increasingly top-heavy, fueled by the principle that one or two or three megawatt mainstays are required for success.

“The open man is our go-to guy,” Vogel said. “Our starting lineup in particular has five guys out there that can make plays in a number of different ways. That’s the beauty of our team.”

And taken from your quote, "While the rest of the league snickered, or scratched its head, Vogel maintained HIS belief."

Coaches believe many different things. It doesn't change the fact of what happened. Pacers were really below average. Actually, way below average, in scoring the ball. The fact Lance Stephenson had to pummel the ball that often because Pacers had very few options is evident enough. I don't care what Frank Vogel said. You make it seem as if he's spitting gold when he talks. His opinion is his opinion. What is a coach supposed to say? "We don't have many guys capable of creating plays. Paul George is our only guy. The others are not very good at it."

FlashBolt
12-05-2017, 01:32 PM
Paul George spent the last several years breaking the offense and going iso as much as he possibly could. He thinks that's how the game is supposed to be played. He did not develop that on a "bad team", as evidenced by the quotes on the system and his own quotes. Paul thought he knew better and no one was telling him different. Just like when Larry Bird wanted him to play PF and he refused, resulting in years long injuries to 6'6" cj miles.

You are full of crap, man.

Gotcha. So you don't think playing under Pop would have influenced PG's game in any way. It's just PG being a poor player. Not the fact that he wanted to leave your team and you aren't showing some resentment. I will leave you to continue quoting Frank Vogel.. who is leading a terrible Orlando team right now but hey, at least they have plenty of playmakers.

IndyRealist
12-05-2017, 01:37 PM
Gotcha. So you don't think playing under Pop would have influenced PG's game in any way. It's just PG being a poor player. Not the fact that he wanted to leave your team and you aren't showing some resentment. I will leave you to continue quoting Frank Vogel.. who is leading a terrible Orlando team right now but hey, at least they have plenty of playmakers.

Again, you show your ignorance. If you'd have paid attention at all, even just in this thread, you'd know I've been pushing to trade PG for years.

You are quite literally just guessing at everything.

R. Johnson#3
12-06-2017, 05:32 PM
When the Pacers gave up PG for 'next to nothing', most expected the team to take a hard hit and go lottery mode. They're on pace to eclipse the 42-win mark they hit last season.

Last year the Knicks were in the doldrums. Without Melo, most expected the Knicks would have to 'trust the process'.

They are on pace to get over .500 and make the post season.


Both teams have a long road ahead of them, but they are both playing well despite losing franchise players and essentially taking role players back.


The Thunder, however, who were a winning team last season (47 wins in the west), are struggling to even get to .500.


Was this a case of addition through subtraction? Or subtraction through addition?

Can you think of other instances where teams lost franchise or all-star players and actually got better?

When the Raps dealt Rudy Gay for Greivis Vasquez, Patrick Patterson and Chuck Hayes turned their season around and won the division.

Vee-Rex
12-06-2017, 06:32 PM
I think Paul George would greatly benefit as a 2nd option with a 1st that can get him the ball in great spots (LeBron, Westbrook, Harden). I think he would flourish playing next to any of those 3. I know he's playing with Westy but I feel like the Carmelo cog is kind of slowing them down.

PG has always sorta lacked explosiveness. He's very athletic but not explosively fast (similar to DeRozan). Kevin Durant is explosive. LeBron is explosive. Westy is explosive. Harden is great at using his dribbling, and Kawhi has great footwork.

It just seems like he's unable to blow by defenders as easily and doesn't have the elite handles to break down his defender. So he tends to settle for long jumpers and 3's. If he was playing with LeBron, he'd get so many better looks and wouldn't rely as much on the long mid-range. Jeff Green is built similar to George physically and he's having a career year off LeBron's fantastic passing and sharp cuts to the rim. He works inside and out. George is Green on 20 years worth of steroids.

OKC needs to cut Melo's shot count down to 11 or 12 a game, rebound better, and hope he can give you 16-17'ish points, then run the offense through Westbrook and let George feed off Westy's explosiveness. George has the tools, he just needs to be in the right situation to get the most out of him.

mrblisterdundee
12-06-2017, 07:04 PM
Indiana is surprising, but New York was always toss-up with or without Carmelo. I thought the Knicks would be way better with Porzingis at center and Carmelo at power forward, but they didn't seem to invest in that scheme.

FlashBolt
12-06-2017, 07:06 PM
Indiana is surprising, but New York was always toss-up with or without Carmelo. I thought the Knicks would be way better with Porzingis at center and Carmelo at power forward, but they didn't seem to invest in that scheme.

Porzingis didn't want to play Center, I believe. I think it was a royal screw up signing Noah and that was their biggest issue. As annoying as the Melo situation was, they paid Noah as if he was in 2011 Bulls. It has to be one of the worst contracts in NBA history. All it took was for Noah to tell Phil that he was healthy and Phil said, "Sign him." Really, he said it himself! If they didn't have Noah and with Kanter possibly opting out, Knicks would have been golden for attracting free agents.

FlashBolt
12-06-2017, 07:07 PM
Indiana is surprising, but New York was always toss-up with or without Carmelo. I thought the Knicks would be way better with Porzingis at center and Carmelo at power forward, but they didn't seem to invest in that scheme.

“At some point I ran into him on the streets of New York City, just an accidental (meeting). He’s out, he’s an active guy. So he wanted me to do a pull-up on his arm to demonstrate that his shoulder’s in fine shape,” Jackson said."

This is how the Knicks sign their players.

mrblisterdundee
12-06-2017, 08:11 PM
Porzingis didn't want to play Center, I believe. I think it was a royal screw up signing Noah and that was their biggest issue. As annoying as the Melo situation was, they paid Noah as if he was in 2011 Bulls. It has to be one of the worst contracts in NBA history. All it took was for Noah to tell Phil that he was healthy and Phil said, "Sign him." Really, he said it himself! If they didn't have Noah and with Kanter possibly opting out, Knicks would have been golden for attracting free agents.

Porzingis might not want to play center, but he should. He's a great power forward too, but imagine Jokic, except good at defense.

THE_LOGO
12-06-2017, 08:19 PM
You can say that about every "could've been". Ultimately it's up to him to understand what his weaknesses are and correct them. But he doesn't see it as a weakness. A whole generation of players saw Jordan, Kobe do it in highlights and think that's how the game should be played. Well, Jordan played against a different set of rules, and Kobe may be the all time great at taking bad shots. PG does not have the work ethic like Kobe to make it work.

Not sure if this was a praise or a knock on Kobe. I don't really care anymore since he's retired. But for what it's worth, he practiced those "bad shots" knowing he would have to take them during actual game situations. And I'm not talking about practice as in trying them out a couple of times just to F around. I mean he practiced them as in taking 100 shots in practice as if he's practicing free throws.

mightybosstone
12-07-2017, 04:30 PM
Can you think of other instances where teams lost franchise or all-star players and actually got better?

I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this yet or not, but Dwight in Houston was a perfect example of this. The guy didn't want to set screens and roll to the basket. He wanted to take 15+ shots from the low post and turn the ball over at an insane rate. His ego held their offense back significantly his last season in Houston, and although I credit D'Antoni and the acquisitions of Anderson and Gordon with much of their turnaround last season, I think replacing Dwight in the starting lineup with a guy who actually did what the Rockets needed him to do (Capela) was a huge reason for their success.

ChongInc.
12-07-2017, 05:01 PM
Addition by subtraction is the Raptors. We unloaded the leader of our bench (Joseph) and sent our entire draft away to get rid of Carroll... we have a rookie starting at SF who nobody thought would even be playing by now due to a College injury (OG) - who is playing exactly the way we hoped Carroll would- , and we have 2 PG's on rookie deals producing better than Joseph and suddenly the bench of young unproven talent is one of the top 5 benches in the league.

ChongInc.
12-07-2017, 05:03 PM
Indy and NY are both enjoying playing against an incredibly weak conference and it is actually in their best interest to not be doing so well imo. Getting to the playoffs does nothing for their future.

Tg11
12-07-2017, 05:03 PM
In all honesty the Knicks and the Pacers both got better even after getting rid of Melo and George respectively...I mean Oladipo he has been putting in work this season with the Pacers and ever since Melo left it is like KP has stepped up more or less and so have other role players like Tim Hardaway, Jr. and Frank helps that they also have that defensive presence in Enes Kanter

IndyRealist
12-07-2017, 05:32 PM
Indy and NY are both enjoying playing against an incredibly weak conference and it is actually in their best interest to not be doing so well imo. Getting to the playoffs does nothing for their future.

East is 72-67 against the West as of Monday.

Tg11
12-07-2017, 05:36 PM
Indiana could potentially have a new franchise player in Oladipo especially if Oladipo keeps playing consistently