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View Full Version : Lebron = Mike now straight up.



IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 01:37 AM
The game is as easy for Lebron as it has ever been for anyone. I think as a player, (not career achievement) my unbiased opinion is that he is equal to Jordan as a player as of this year. The way his game has changed as his athletic ability has declined yet he is still equally as dominant as ever, just differently...I mean nobody accept Mike has that kind of age curve and Bron is showing he is going to age extremely well...I think he ages better than anyone in history based off the extreme athletic advantage from the start coupled with the highest physical work ethic. I know he's going to anniahilate the all time scoring record, along with many others but I'm not even talking about career statistics impacting level of greatness...

...I'm talking about two guys and how good they are as individuals, and based off what Bron has shown this year, he has equaled Jordan as a player.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 01:54 AM
Unfortunately, as good as LeBron is, we have to be fair: It doesn't do anything for his career unless he wins a championship. It's come to a point where this reg season LeBron will do MVP things but we'll find ourselves always saying he's below MJ because of rings. I'm as big of a LeBron fan as any other person out there but unless he gets those ring counts up and finds a way to beat the Warriors or something, he isn't moving up to #1. He's for sure ending up #2 in my books if he can at least put up 2-3 elite seasons and then drift away with 3-4 really great seasons. If he gets up to #1 in scoring, no question he has surpassed KAJ.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 02:44 AM
Unfortunately, as good as LeBron is, we have to be fair: It doesn't do anything for his career unless he wins a championship. It's come to a point where this reg season LeBron will do MVP things but we'll find ourselves always saying he's below MJ because of rings. I'm as big of a LeBron fan as any other person out there but unless he gets those ring counts up and finds a way to beat the Warriors or something, he isn't moving up to #1. He's for sure ending up #2 in my books if he can at least put up 2-3 elite seasons and then drift away with 3-4 really great seasons. If he gets up to #1 in scoring, no question he has surpassed KAJ.

I agree. I'm saying purely from an individual standpoint, he has proven to be an equal to Jordan. Rings are a team game so it all can't be about rings. We can rank MJ higher on the GOAT list, but, greatest and best are not the same thing...close, but often not the same.

Ali is the greatest, but not the best.

TrueFan420
11-29-2017, 10:07 AM
I agree. I'm saying purely from an individual standpoint, he has proven to be an equal to Jordan. Rings are a team game so it all can't be about rings. We can rank MJ higher on the GOAT list, but, greatest and best are not the same thing...close, but often not the same.

Ali is the greatest, but not the best.

One thing that goes overlooked is while yes it's a team game it's also a team game. As talented as player is individually if they can ft within a team then they need to take some blame. Lebron is clearly trying to make a case for GOAT next to Jordan and he will come closer than most but he's never been able to adjust his game to fit into a scheme and in the end it's what's cost him rings. He's had top end talent that could overcome that. However, that's not going to work forever. It's a big part of the reason they lost to Spurs and should have lost twice with the heat.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 10:19 AM
yes, LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan. However, his career is not. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. LeBron ran into much tougher finals opponents, and his 2011 choke job against the Mavs will haunt him forever.

But yes, as far as GOAT goes, the only reason basketball doesn't have a strong debate, is because Jordan's playoff/finals results are just too hard to catch, on top of him being individually a top 3 talent to ever play.

europagnpilgrim
11-29-2017, 10:39 AM
The game is as easy for Lebron as it has ever been for anyone. I think as a player, (not career achievement) my unbiased opinion is that he is equal to Jordan as a player as of this year. The way his game has changed as his athletic ability has declined yet he is still equally as dominant as ever, just differently...I mean nobody accept Mike has that kind of age curve and Bron is showing he is going to age extremely well...I think he ages better than anyone in history based off the extreme athletic advantage from the start coupled with the highest physical work ethic. I know he's going to anniahilate the all time scoring record, along with many others but I'm not even talking about career statistics impacting level of greatness...

...I'm talking about two guys and how good they are as individuals, and based off what Bron has shown this year, he has equaled Jordan as a player.

after all what you just said both are miles behind Wilt, if Wilt had wanted to he could have put up 40ppg when he went to the Lakers but they were too talented for him to go that route, Wilt and Lebron are probably the most dominant stat stuffers(across the board) of all time, 50+pts/30-40+boards/10-25blocks/5-10steals/5-10assists were Wilts daily game numbers for a 7yr stretch

europagnpilgrim
11-29-2017, 10:42 AM
yes, LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan. However, his career is not. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. LeBron ran into much tougher finals opponents, and his 2011 choke job against the Mavs will haunt him forever.

But yes, as far as GOAT goes, the only reason basketball doesn't have a strong debate, is because Jordan's playoff/finals results are just too hard to catch, on top of him being individually a top 3 talent to ever play.

who are your top 3 talents to ever play? when you say talent I think of a player who can play multiple sports at equal level, like when you say talent I say Iverson is top 3 talent ever because he was a hell of a baseball player and was Mr. Virginia in both foot/bball, now that's some serious talent

I would have to go with Wilt/Iverson/Lebron as a top 3 when just talking pure natural talent

WaDe03
11-29-2017, 10:50 AM
who are your top 3 talents to ever play? when you say talent I think of a player who can play multiple sports at equal level, like when you say talent I say Iverson is top 3 talent ever because he was a hell of a baseball player and was Mr. Virginia in both foot/bball, now that's some serious talent

I would have to go with Wilt/Iverson/Lebron as a top 3 when just talking pure natural talent

Gtfoh with the Iverson ****. He was not that special. He probably doesn't crack the top 30 all time. CP3 is better.

pacofunk64
11-29-2017, 11:10 AM
LeBron will never be better than Jordan. It's not because of what he did on the court either. It's all the stuff he did off the court in regards to marketing the game of basketball. That can never be duplicated and has to play into ones greatness.

effen5
11-29-2017, 11:28 AM
Gtfoh with the Iverson ****. He was not that special. He probably doesn't crack the top 30 all time. CP3 is better.

Um, no I'd take Iverson over CP3 anyday.

prodigy
11-29-2017, 11:35 AM
If we are talking straight achievements and Ships Neither Lebron nor MJ are the GOAT. if we talking straight basketball ability from all aspects of the game. Lebron is the Goat. I'm not sure how its close.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:17 PM
Gtfoh with the Iverson ****. He was not that special. He probably doesn't crack the top 30 all time. CP3 is better.
Iverson top three talent.. that's funny.

LeBron will never be better than Jordan. It's not because of what he did on the court either. It's all the stuff he did off the court in regards to marketing the game of basketball. That can never be duplicated and has to play into ones greatness.

Yeah, the legacy of Jordan and being the first megastar in the modern era is really what puts Jordan above most. But that's all nonsense if you cut to the basketball skill.

LaVar Ball
11-29-2017, 12:27 PM
Gtfoh with the Iverson ****. He was not that special. He probably doesn't crack the top 30 all time. CP3 is better.
CP3 didnt and doesnít do anything to change the game.

Allen Iveeson changed the game. He was a killa. And heís ten times more reliable than Chris Paul because no matter how hard AI got hit, he would keep coming back for more. And he actually stays on the court.

Chris Paul flops like a fish at every contact opportunity and is freakin injury prone and canít even stay on the court most times.

Jeffy25
11-29-2017, 12:56 PM
yes, LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan. However, his career is not. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. LeBron ran into much tougher finals opponents, and his 2011 choke job against the Mavs will haunt him forever.

But yes, as far as GOAT goes, the only reason basketball doesn't have a strong debate, is because Jordan's playoff/finals results are just too hard to catch, on top of him being individually a top 3 talent to ever play.

Perfectly said.

I still believe that Bron could just outlast and play until he is 40 and then you'd have to equate the two.

If Bron ends up with 40K points, 10K Boards, 10K assists and the most counting stats in the playoffs....it's kind of hard to not put him in Jordan's territory, and ahead of guys like Kareem

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:57 PM
CP3 didnt and doesnít do anything to change the game.

Allen Iveeson changed the game. He was a killa. And heís ten times more reliable than Chris Paul because no matter how hard AI got hit, he would keep coming back for more. And he actually stays on the court.

Chris Paul flops like a fish at every contact opportunity and is freakin injury prone and canít even stay on the court most times.

1) CP3 has actually played more games than Iverson through their first twelve seasons.

2) CP3 doesn't change the game? Look at how pathetic the Clippers are.. Is that enough evidence for you?

3) Allen Iverson changed the game from the perspective of being a short player able to score the ball. But that didn't necessarily mean he was the better player. Allen Iverson wasn't even half the player CP3 is defensively and as a leader. We're talking about a guy who didn't understand how practice could be beneficial to a team. Those are really inconsistent arguments made by you. CP3 is 100% a better guard than Iverson. Iverson played in a system that rewards high volume scorers. You make it seem as if Iverson was leading his team to the Finals every season. After that 2001 NBA Finals, what did Allen Iverson achieve since then? In one season, they were 38-44 and his teammates were Chris Webber, Kyle Korver, and Andre Iguodala. Yet, only 38 wins?

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:58 PM
Perfectly said.

I still believe that Bron could just outlast and play until he is 40 and then you'd have to equate the two.

If Bron ends up with 40K points, 10K Boards, 10K assists and the most counting stats in the playoffs....it's kind of hard to not put him in Jordan's territory, and ahead of guys like Kareem

He's said that he would want to play against his son so assuming he puts his ego aside, there is a high possibility he will stay long enough until his son gets there.

smith&wesson
11-29-2017, 12:59 PM
All I know is the a pairing of Jordan and James would have been the best ever. A shoot first mentality with a pass first mentality and both so very dominant. They would have won like 11 rings lol

ewing
11-29-2017, 01:02 PM
LeBron will never be better than Jordan. It's not because of what he did on the court either. It's all the stuff he did off the court in regards to marketing the game of basketball. That can never be duplicated and has to play into ones greatness.

No its bc Micheal was better at basketball


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FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 01:05 PM
All I know is the a pairing of Jordan and James would have been the best ever. A shoot first mentality with a pass first mentality and both so very dominant. They would have won like 11 rings lol

Both needed the ball to dominate. I'm not saying that duo wouldn't work but there are much better alternatives. Actually, Jordan had the best pairing of any superstar. Pippen didn't really need the ball and did everything well. He was the best perimeter defender in the game. Rodman, again, didn't need the ball to dominate and was the greatest rebounder/right up there as one of the GOAT defenders. So you have two guys who didn't really need the ball but did everything else at an elite level. That's a scorer's/high USG% player's dream. Like, imagine Kobe+Harden+Wade in that system as well. Do you think those guys don't walk away with rings?

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 01:16 PM
Both needed the ball to dominate. I'm not saying that duo wouldn't work but there are much better alternatives. Actually, Jordan had the best pairing of any superstar. Pippen didn't really need the ball and did everything well. He was the best perimeter defender in the game. Rodman, again, didn't need the ball to dominate and was the greatest rebounder/right up there as one of the GOAT defenders. So you have two guys who didn't really need the ball but did everything else at an elite level. That's a scorer's/high USG% player's dream. Like, imagine Kobe+Harden+Wade in that system as well. Do you think those guys don't walk away with rings?

Wade yes, the other two, yeah but like 1-2. I think Wade could duplicate Jordan's rings if healthy because he is the only guy who I've seen take over in the finals on a Jordan level, the only guy who plays the game the right way on both sides of the court.

LA4life24/8
11-29-2017, 01:19 PM
At this point the only way lebron surpasses jordan Is if he equals or gets more rings plain and simple.

Lebron statistically speaking will likely go down as the goat but as far as legacy i kinda dont see it happening. And even if he does equal or surpass a lot of people still wont put him ahead of jordan because he left to create super teams and didnt do it 100% on HIS team. And he wasn't perfect in the finals and a lost a finals he prolly shoulda won ('11).

I think he'll be referred to as #2 when its all said and done. And im not a huge fan of his but its hard to argue against. Shoot might even be 1.a 1.b type of convos really

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 01:21 PM
Jordan played at a Lebron James level all the time. And even higher in many cases. Do you you expect those guys to do that offensively and defensively every night. Look, Kobe isn't close to Jordan. Not nearly as smart. Yes he is a killer, but not as good. Jordan was absolutely amazing. Let's not act like the next 3 best are on his level. It's a biiiiiiiiiiiig gap.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 01:39 PM
Wade yes, the other two, yeah but like 1-2. I think Wade could duplicate Jordan's rings if healthy because he is the only guy who I've seen take over in the finals on a Jordan level, the only guy who plays the game the right way on both sides of the court.

I'm not saying they would duplicate Jordan's success but let's not try and pretend they wouldn't have won multiple rings as well. It's the system in place that allowed the Bulls and MJ to be that good. I mean, name a team with three elite historic level defenders with the GOAT rebounder? And is there a better sidekick in the NBA than a guy like Pippen? Someone who can rebound, pass, defend, and score like that combined? It's like if you put Kawhi with LeBron and Draymond with LeBron. The game would be too easy for LeBron. Way easier than it is now.

Driven
11-29-2017, 01:54 PM
Comparing LeBron to Jordan directly never made sense to me. They played in two different eras. LeBron is more athletically gifted than Jordan and will have more efficient stats on his side, but that the case with every generation over the previous generation.

The key is to compare LeBron to his peers and Jordan to his peers and see which one was more dominant. Unfortunately for LeBron, he's never going to win as many titles as Jordan.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 02:32 PM
who are your top 3 talents to ever play? when you say talent I think of a player who can play multiple sports at equal level, like when you say talent I say Iverson is top 3 talent ever because he was a hell of a baseball player and was Mr. Virginia in both foot/bball, now that's some serious talent

I would have to go with Wilt/Iverson/Lebron as a top 3 when just talking pure natural talent

Jordan
Wilt
LeBron

I don't reserve "talent" to mean all around sports wise. I mean talent as far as it's applicable to a specific sport. Otherwise Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, Tim Tebow, and Danny Ainge are the answers haha

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 02:34 PM
Perfectly said.

I still believe that Bron could just outlast and play until he is 40 and then you'd have to equate the two.

If Bron ends up with 40K points, 10K Boards, 10K assists and the most counting stats in the playoffs....it's kind of hard to not put him in Jordan's territory, and ahead of guys like Kareem

yeah, I figure LeBron ends up #2 all time. With a case on paper to be alongside Jordan. But, 2011 against the Mavs will just kill him time after time, and I have no issue with that.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 02:35 PM
Comparing LeBron to Jordan directly never made sense to me. They played in two different eras. LeBron is more athletically gifted than Jordan and will have more efficient stats on his side, but that the case with every generation over the previous generation.

The key is to compare LeBron to his peers and Jordan to his peers and see which one was more dominant. Unfortunately for LeBron, he's never going to win as many titles as Jordan.

not when it comes to basketball specifically. Jordan's first step was a thing of legend, and it's one of the more important basketball functions, especially in the era of no zone.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 02:39 PM
not when it comes to basketball specifically. Jordan's first step was a thing of legend, and it's one of the more important basketball functions, especially in the era of no zone.

When it comes to being an athlete, it'll help, though. Westbrook has terrible basketball fundamentals and skills but the guy is just so damn athletic that he can make things happen. There is a history of him just barraging into the paint and scoring when it shouldn't be the case. LeBron's the same story but his skillset is terribly overlooked because of his history of physical prowess. Jordan's hands, though, are never mentioned. The way he could palm a ball and have control over it is underrated.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 02:49 PM
When it comes to being an athlete, it'll help, though. Westbrook has terrible basketball fundamentals and skills but the guy is just so damn athletic that he can make things happen. There is a history of him just barraging into the paint and scoring when it shouldn't be the case. LeBron's the same story but his skillset is terribly overlooked because of his history of physical prowess. Jordan's hands, though, are never mentioned. The way he could palm a ball and have control over it is underrated.

sure but different athletic traits work better for different sports. I only mean, while Jordan wasn't the freight train LeBron is, the reason Jordan was so amazing was largely because of his first step explosiveness, and his ability to keep body control and balance.

LeBron is a once in a lifetime athlete, but so was Jordan.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 03:06 PM
sure but different athletic traits work better for different sports. I only mean, while Jordan wasn't the freight train LeBron is, the reason Jordan was so amazing was largely because of his first step explosiveness, and his ability to keep body control and balance.

LeBron is a once in a lifetime athlete, but so was Jordan.

The thing is, LeBron is 6'8 260. Karl Malone but with speed of a PG. That's not something Jordan was. He was more finesse. LeBron's an athlete where if aliens were invading, he's the type of athlete you DON'T want them to take powers from. The fact he's never gotten seriously hurt and has that much mileage on him while still being in his fifteenth season putting career high numbers in some categories is just unreal. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Wade, Melo, Irving, Draymond, KD. All injured and took time off. LeBron, never.

mrblisterdundee
11-29-2017, 03:19 PM
The title makes it seem like you're asking whether we'd trade Jordan for LeBron straight-up ó in today's NBA, absolutely. LeBron is a more versatile, athletic player than Jordan was. Of course, it's impossible to tell how good of an outside shooter or floor general Jordan would be if asked to. But LeBron has shown he can fit anywhere, in any situation. That's a lot easier to build around.

burtgummer
11-29-2017, 04:45 PM
The Bron-Bron fanboys so young and sooo ignorant .
Bron-Bron is not near as good as Wilt or MJ but I know that won't stop you from keeping your heads up his ***

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 04:51 PM
The thing is, LeBron is 6'8 260. Karl Malone but with speed of a PG. That's not something Jordan was. He was more finesse. LeBron's an athlete where if aliens were invading, he's the type of athlete you DON'T want them to take powers from. The fact he's never gotten seriously hurt and has that much mileage on him while still being in his fifteenth season putting career high numbers in some categories is just unreal. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Wade, Melo, Irving, Draymond, KD. All injured and took time off. LeBron, never.

I get all that. And Jordan's first step, and ability to control his body, was much better than LeBron's. Jordan didn't overwhelm with skill, he straight up blew by the league his first 10 years.

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 04:52 PM
The Bron-Bron fanboys so young and sooo ignorant .
Bron-Bron is not near as good as Wilt or MJ but I know that won't stop you from keeping your heads up his ***

he is every bit as good, and more accomplished than Wilt, but his career isn't as good as Jordan's, in regard to team success, playoff dominance, and Jordan never laid a total dud like Bron did in 2011.

krazylegz
11-29-2017, 04:52 PM
The Bron-Bron fanboys so young and sooo ignorant .
Bron-Bron is not near as good as Wilt or MJ but I know that won't stop you from keeping your heads up his ***

can say the same about the bron bron haters...to say he isnt nearly as good as those two is only kidding yourself

ewing
11-29-2017, 04:58 PM
Jordan played at a Lebron James level all the time. And even higher in many cases. Do you you expect those guys to do that offensively and defensively every night. Look, Kobe isn't close to Jordan. Not nearly as smart. Yes he is a killer, but not as good. Jordan was absolutely amazing. Let's not act like the next 3 best are on his level. It's a biiiiiiiiiiiig gap.

This


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FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 05:04 PM
I get all that. And Jordan's first step, and ability to control his body, was much better than LeBron's. Jordan didn't overwhelm with skill, he straight up blew by the league his first 10 years.

That comes by size difference. Smaller players are going to have a quicker first step and ability to control their body. Bigger players show athletic abilities much differently. LeBron size and speed combination is just greater.

europagnpilgrim
11-29-2017, 05:07 PM
Gtfoh with the Iverson ****. He was not that special. He probably doesn't crack the top 30 all time. CP3 is better.

the student never succeeds the master(looking at you Wade/CP3 and others), even Lebron was basically a bigger damn version of Iverson once you focus on the influence of the headband/tattoos/armsleeve

DrJ was Jordan before Jordan, now let that sink in for a minute

that's why I laugh at you jokers on here trying to put Nash/Stockton and others on a top list before Iverson, none of those players are better and couldn't do what he did on the court outside of over passing the ball, Iverson could over pass if given the talent and drop 40 on you at will, he was a 40/10 threat nightly, imagine him in a Mike D system, scary

now run and tell D Wade what I said and ask him why he wears number 3, and I guarantee you he wont be saying it because of Marbury, ask CP3 as well why they wear number 3

ďIíve always said Allen Iverson had the biggest effect on the culture of the NBA out of any player. He started a culture. He started the arm sleeve, the tattoos, all that stuff. Heís the biggest influence in the NBA out of anybodyÖ I wanted braids, because AI had them. I just loved the grit that he played with. He always played with a chip on his shoulder. I feel like I sort of do the same.Ē -CP3

ďHe meant everything to me,Ē Paul said. ďI grew up in North Carolina and I loved Michael Jordan to death, but Allen Iverson had a bigger influence on the game of basketball than anybody. I donít even think it is close.Ē - CP3

"Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played," James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday's home opener against the defending champion Heat

"I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure," James said in ESPN The Magazine's NBA Preview Issue. "But I'll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don't take anything from A.I.. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10Ĺ. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ."

Now why in the world would Jordan(media GOAT) be his favorite but his 2nd fav was the lb. for lb. GOAT and not in the top 30 of best players?

How can players have such a major impact culturally by not being one of the best ever? name me your top cultural sports players and I bet they are some of the best ever to do it in its field, example are Gretzky and Jordan and Ali, where do they rank in their sports as impact players on the culture? highly, very

Iverson was his 2nd fav because he was that damn good, nothing more nor less, regardless if you don't have him in your top 30, but Shaq/Lebron and others have him way up there, Shaq said he was top 5 ever and Lebron said he is the SugarRayRobinson of the sport, I would tend to lean toward his peers as many others like yourself do when they scream out ''Duncan is the greatest PF ever', so that's how I tend to look at it rather who agrees or not, boo hoo poo poo

Jeffy25
11-29-2017, 05:16 PM
He's said that he would want to play against his son so assuming he puts his ego aside, there is a high possibility he will stay long enough until his son gets there.

That's 2023 at the earliest (19 and in the NBA) His age 39-40 season. That is a possibility, but might be challenging.

burtgummer
11-29-2017, 05:34 PM
can say the same about the bron bron haters...to say he isnt nearly as good as those two is only kidding yourself

How many rings does Bron-Bron have?
And he's had more around him than MJ but I realize that most people here are just ignorant kids and weren't even born yet when Wilt and MJ played
It's true shame

europagnpilgrim
11-29-2017, 05:35 PM
he is every bit as good, and more accomplished than Wilt, but his career isn't as good as Jordan's, in regard to team success, playoff dominance, and Jordan never laid a total dud like Bron did in 2011.


He has one more ring than Wilt and when Wilt went to Lakers he focused on passing way way more as well as his final couple seasons with 76ers, when Wilt was asked/challenged by media about his scoring with Lakers he would drop 50/60 and go back to over passing showing he could have put up 40ppg well into his early to late 30's if he truly wanted to, same as with Russell who put up 24ppg/24rpg head to head against Wilt, had he wanted to he could have done that for his career but I am wise enough to factor that in when looking at the big picture of what Russell was about

people should make a list of most dominant players ever list, minus the team winning rings

when saying who is the ''greatest'' that muddies the water because I take greatest as being ''most accomplished or pampered/catered to'' rather than actually being better(more dominant)

Brady is very accomplished but to me its plenty of qb's I feel that were better, its like K Warner is more accomplished than a lot of qb's but I feel its plenty who are better, I prefer dual threat qb's who can do both at high equal level

I think S Young is better than Warner and every bit as good as Brees and Brady because he was basically them in his heyday

Lebron is one of the most dominant players ever no doubt, at least on my list he is but I got him under Wilt as far as one on one, I am drafting Wilt first in any era

Hawkeye15
11-29-2017, 05:41 PM
That comes by size difference. Smaller players are going to have a quicker first step and ability to control their body. Bigger players show athletic abilities much differently. LeBron size and speed combination is just greater.

do you always have to think you are right?

For a 6'6", 210 lb man, Jordan had unmatchable burst and explosiveness. He had a 40"+ vertical, was much more explosive, and much more balanced, than LeBron James, who is a whopping 2" taller.

Look, LeBron is a cyborg athlete. But please don't act like Jordan wasn't world class, and specifically had traits that help basketball even more.

R. Johnson#3
11-29-2017, 06:02 PM
Mike was a killer, Lebron is not. Yea, Lebron puts up great numbers which translate to wins but I want the guy who demands the ball and comes through in crunch time.

bbcmillionaire
11-29-2017, 06:04 PM
Lol if Jordan had 3 rings I donít think lebron would be better. Lebron is the most overrated defender I have seen in a long time. Jordanís defense was scary. Compare lebron to magic not michael

Sactown
11-29-2017, 06:08 PM
do you always have to think you are right?

For a 6'6", 210 lb man, Jordan had unmatchable burst and explosiveness. He had a 40"+ vertical, was much more explosive, and much more balanced, than LeBron James, who is a whopping 2" taller.

Look, LeBron is a cyborg athlete. But please don't act like Jordan wasn't world class, and specifically had traits that help basketball even more.

Not that Jordan wasnt an exceptional athlete, but let's not kid ourselves and say the difference between MJs and LBJs body was 2"...

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 06:58 PM
do you always have to think you are right?

For a 6'6", 210 lb man, Jordan had unmatchable burst and explosiveness. He had a 40"+ vertical, was much more explosive, and much more balanced, than LeBron James, who is a whopping 2" taller.

Look, LeBron is a cyborg athlete. But please don't act like Jordan wasn't world class, and specifically had traits that help basketball even more.

Do you always have to drag this on? The odds we see a 6'8 260 lb player who can outrun many PG's and who never gets injured while playing 15+ seasons is unheard of. The odds we see a player of MJ's stature is more common. I never said MJ wasn't special but we're talking about a player who hasn't been injured for 15 seasons. Go find a player of that caliber.

ewing
11-29-2017, 07:01 PM
do you always have to think you are right?

For a 6'6", 210 lb man, Jordan had unmatchable burst and explosiveness. He had a 40"+ vertical, was much more explosive, and much more balanced, than LeBron James, who is a whopping 2" taller.

Look, LeBron is a cyborg athlete. But please don't act like Jordan wasn't world class, and specifically had traits that help basketball even more.


He's been very angry of late

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 07:02 PM
He's a very angry person

Do you get the objective of a forum? Probably not considering you're just here making one line statements that seem trollish half the time. If you guys dislike it, just ignore my posts. I've got plenty of people there for my own sake. I'll add you to it as well.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 07:04 PM
Lol if Jordan had 3 rings I donít think lebron would be better. Lebron is the most overrated defender I have seen in a long time. Jordanís defense was scary. Compare lebron to magic not michael

Jordan wasn't even the second best defender on his own team in the last threepeat.

Jamiecballer
11-29-2017, 07:06 PM
the student never succeeds the master(looking at you Wade/CP3 and others), even Lebron was basically a bigger damn version of Iverson once you focus on the influence of the headband/tattoos/armsleeve

DrJ was Jordan before Jordan, now let that sink in for a minute

that's why I laugh at you jokers on here trying to put Nash/Stockton and others on a top list before Iverson, none of those players are better and couldn't do what he did on the court outside of over passing the ball, Iverson could over pass if given the talent and drop 40 on you at will, he was a 40/10 threat nightly, imagine him in a Mike D system, scary

now run and tell D Wade what I said and ask him why he wears number 3, and I guarantee you he wont be saying it because of Marbury, ask CP3 as well why they wear number 3

ďIíve always said Allen Iverson had the biggest effect on the culture of the NBA out of any player. He started a culture. He started the arm sleeve, the tattoos, all that stuff. Heís the biggest influence in the NBA out of anybodyÖ I wanted braids, because AI had them. I just loved the grit that he played with. He always played with a chip on his shoulder. I feel like I sort of do the same.Ē -CP3

ďHe meant everything to me,Ē Paul said. ďI grew up in North Carolina and I loved Michael Jordan to death, but Allen Iverson had a bigger influence on the game of basketball than anybody. I donít even think it is close.Ē - CP3

"Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played," James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday's home opener against the defending champion Heat

"I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure," James said in ESPN The Magazine's NBA Preview Issue. "But I'll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don't take anything from A.I.. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10Ĺ. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ."

Now why in the world would Jordan(media GOAT) be his favorite but his 2nd fav was the lb. for lb. GOAT and not in the top 30 of best players?

How can players have such a major impact culturally by not being one of the best ever? name me your top cultural sports players and I bet they are some of the best ever to do it in its field, example are Gretzky and Jordan and Ali, where do they rank in their sports as impact players on the culture? highly, very

Iverson was his 2nd fav because he was that damn good, nothing more nor less, regardless if you don't have him in your top 30, but Shaq/Lebron and others have him way up there, Shaq said he was top 5 ever and Lebron said he is the SugarRayRobinson of the sport, I would tend to lean toward his peers as many others like yourself do when they scream out ''Duncan is the greatest PF ever', so that's how I tend to look at it rather who agrees or not, boo hoo poo poo

iverson was a 40/10 threat nightly lmao

that must mean 40 shots / ten in the flow of the offense

SteBO
11-29-2017, 07:09 PM
In a pure basketball sense, LBJ and MJ are neck and neck, but once we get into careers, Iím sorry....the 2011 NBA Finals will prevent him from ever reaching MJ. Maybe itís because Iím a HEAT fan and therefore it cuts deeper, but itís not just that MIA lost as the clear favorite....but you could easily argue that LBJ was the reason they lost. Itís the only instance in LeBrons career where Iíd say, ďput Michael Jordan in LeBronís position, that would never have happenedĒ. What MJ did to market the game also is a big deal.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 07:10 PM
iverson was a 40/10 threat nightly lmao

that must mean 40 shots / ten in the flow of the offense

40/10 meaning 40% from the field and 10% passing. On a more realistic note, I don't think I've ever heard anyone proclaim Allen Iverson as the 2nd GOAT. Is that what he's doing?

ewing
11-29-2017, 07:41 PM
Do you get the objective of a forum? Probably not considering you're just here making one line statements that seem trollish half the time. If you guys dislike it, just ignore my posts. I've got plenty of people there for my own sake. I'll add you to it as well.

Is it to take formulate ridiculous hot takes and then defend them to your death?

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 08:02 PM
I'm not saying they would duplicate Jordan's success but let's not try and pretend they wouldn't have won multiple rings as well. It's the system in place that allowed the Bulls and MJ to be that good. I mean, name a team with three elite historic level defenders with the GOAT rebounder? And is there a better sidekick in the NBA than a guy like Pippen? Someone who can rebound, pass, defend, and score like that combined? It's like if you put Kawhi with LeBron and Draymond with LeBron. The game would be too easy for LeBron. Way easier than it is now.

True

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 08:08 PM
The thing is, LeBron is 6'8 260. Karl Malone but with speed of a PG. That's not something Jordan was. He was more finesse. LeBron's an athlete where if aliens were invading, he's the type of athlete you DON'T want them to take powers from. The fact he's never gotten seriously hurt and has that much mileage on him while still being in his fifteenth season putting career high numbers in some categories is just unreal. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Wade, Melo, Irving, Draymond, KD. All injured and took time off. LeBron, never.

I think Hawk is saying that as amazing as Lebron is athletically, don't overlook Jordan as a Kobe/Wade/Tmac type of athlete. He probably had at least 8 inches in vertical over any of them. Nobody is freakier than Bron, but Jordan was like a 6'6 Russell Westbrook with a lot more hops so picture that.

WaDe03
11-29-2017, 08:33 PM
the student never succeeds the master(looking at you Wade/CP3 and others), even Lebron was basically a bigger damn version of Iverson once you focus on the influence of the headband/tattoos/armsleeve

DrJ was Jordan before Jordan, now let that sink in for a minute

that's why I laugh at you jokers on here trying to put Nash/Stockton and others on a top list before Iverson, none of those players are better and couldn't do what he did on the court outside of over passing the ball, Iverson could over pass if given the talent and drop 40 on you at will, he was a 40/10 threat nightly, imagine him in a Mike D system, scary

now run and tell D Wade what I said and ask him why he wears number 3, and I guarantee you he wont be saying it because of Marbury, ask CP3 as well why they wear number 3

ďIíve always said Allen Iverson had the biggest effect on the culture of the NBA out of any player. He started a culture. He started the arm sleeve, the tattoos, all that stuff. Heís the biggest influence in the NBA out of anybodyÖ I wanted braids, because AI had them. I just loved the grit that he played with. He always played with a chip on his shoulder. I feel like I sort of do the same.Ē -CP3

ďHe meant everything to me,Ē Paul said. ďI grew up in North Carolina and I loved Michael Jordan to death, but Allen Iverson had a bigger influence on the game of basketball than anybody. I donít even think it is close.Ē - CP3

"Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played," James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday's home opener against the defending champion Heat

"I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure," James said in ESPN The Magazine's NBA Preview Issue. "But I'll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don't take anything from A.I.. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10Ĺ. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ."

Now why in the world would Jordan(media GOAT) be his favorite but his 2nd fav was the lb. for lb. GOAT and not in the top 30 of best players?

How can players have such a major impact culturally by not being one of the best ever? name me your top cultural sports players and I bet they are some of the best ever to do it in its field, example are Gretzky and Jordan and Ali, where do they rank in their sports as impact players on the culture? highly, very

Iverson was his 2nd fav because he was that damn good, nothing more nor less, regardless if you don't have him in your top 30, but Shaq/Lebron and others have him way up there, Shaq said he was top 5 ever and Lebron said he is the SugarRayRobinson of the sport, I would tend to lean toward his peers as many others like yourself do when they scream out ''Duncan is the greatest PF ever', so that's how I tend to look at it rather who agrees or not, boo hoo poo poo

Lmfao!

flea
11-29-2017, 09:01 PM
Nope.

More-Than-Most
11-29-2017, 09:33 PM
If it wasnt for the 2011 finals id have him equal or above... 2011 was a joke which is all on lebron... I would take lebron over Jordan when starting a team 10 times out of 10 times because he is the more unstoppable 2 way player in his prime... but the best player is still Jordan because accomplishments matter... Lebron keeps this type of play up a few more years then I think he over takes him rings be damned.

MJ never ever played a team as good as this warriors team even before Durant.

kdspurman
11-29-2017, 10:36 PM
If it wasnt for the 2011 finals id have him equal or above... 2011 was a joke which is all on lebron... I would take lebron over Jordan when starting a team 10 times out of 10 times because he is the more unstoppable 2 way player in his prime... but the best player is still Jordan because accomplishments matter... Lebron keeps this type of play up a few more years then I think he over takes him rings be damned.

MJ never ever played a team as good as this warriors team even before Durant.

I always felt like you could go the route Pop did in 2013 finals and just dare Lebron to shoot the ball. It doesn't always work, but there was some success with that, just by sagging off him a bit and not allowing him to drive. Especially because he was reluctant to go to work in the post. If his shot was on, obviously it changes things.

But you really couldn't do stuff like that with MJ, if you dared him to shoot, it's not going to mess with him mentally, he's going to make you pay.

Jeffy25
11-29-2017, 11:17 PM
I'm not saying they would duplicate Jordan's success but let's not try and pretend they wouldn't have won multiple rings as well. It's the system in place that allowed the Bulls and MJ to be that good. I mean, name a team with three elite historic level defenders with the GOAT rebounder? And is there a better sidekick in the NBA than a guy like Pippen? Someone who can rebound, pass, defend, and score like that combined? It's like if you put Kawhi with LeBron and Draymond with LeBron. The game would be too easy for LeBron. Way easier than it is now.

And.......... have him start out in Cleveland, those guys come to him, and nobody else in the league team jump.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-29-2017, 11:29 PM
1b.

Chronz
11-29-2017, 11:37 PM
Unfortunately, as good as LeBron is, we have to be fair: It doesn't do anything for his career unless he wins a championship. It's come to a point where this reg season LeBron will do MVP things but we'll find ourselves always saying he's below MJ because of rings. I'm as big of a LeBron fan as any other person out there but unless he gets those ring counts up and finds a way to beat the Warriors or something, he isn't moving up to #1. He's for sure ending up #2 in my books if he can at least put up 2-3 elite seasons and then drift away with 3-4 really great seasons. If he gets up to #1 in scoring, no question he has surpassed KAJ.

How has he surpassed the guy with more rings

Chronz
11-29-2017, 11:50 PM
Both needed the ball to dominate. I'm not saying that duo wouldn't work but there are much better alternatives. Actually, Jordan had the best pairing of any superstar. Pippen didn't really need the ball and did everything well. He was the best perimeter defender in the game. Rodman, again, didn't need the ball to dominate and was the greatest rebounder/right up there as one of the GOAT defenders. So you have two guys who didn't really need the ball but did everything else at an elite level. That's a scorer's/high USG% player's dream. Like, imagine Kobe+Harden+Wade in that system as well. Do you think those guys don't walk away with rings?

Mj didn't need the ball. Pippen did

Chronz
11-29-2017, 11:51 PM
after all what you just said both are miles behind Wilt, if Wilt had wanted to he could have put up 40ppg when he went to the Lakers but they were too talented for him to go that route, Wilt and Lebron are probably the most dominant stat stuffers(across the board) of all time, 50+pts/30-40+boards/10-25blocks/5-10steals/5-10assists were Wilts daily game numbers for a 7yr stretch

No they weren't, Wilt just listened to a bad coach and after his injury wasn't the same offensive force

Chronz
11-29-2017, 11:52 PM
CP3 didnt and doesnít do anything to change the game.

Allen Iveeson changed the game. He was a killa. And heís ten times more reliable than Chris Paul because no matter how hard AI got hit, he would keep coming back for more. And he actually stays on the court.

Chris Paul flops like a fish at every contact opportunity and is freakin injury prone and canít even stay on the court most times.

AI never beat a team as good as the spurs, never put up the numbers cp3 did and he sucked defensively

Chronz
11-29-2017, 11:56 PM
I get all that. And Jordan's first step, and ability to control his body, was much better than LeBron's. Jordan didn't overwhelm with skill, he straight up blew by the league his first 10 years.

Im with you, add the increased skill level and it's a no brainer. First steps at his size matter more than Bron being heavier but requiring that 2nd step to beat you. MJ just flat out got to his spots effortlessly

Chronz
11-30-2017, 12:27 AM
I always felt like you could go the route Pop did in 2013 finals and just dare Lebron to shoot the ball. It doesn't always work, but there was some success with that, just by sagging off him a bit and not allowing him to drive. Especially because he was reluctant to go to work in the post. If his shot was on, obviously it changes things.

But you really couldn't do stuff like that with MJ, if you dared him to shoot, it's not going to mess with him mentally, he's going to make you pay.

Even pop stopped going that route tho. MJ could be baited into worse shots, they're different types of offensive players. MJ never faced a team as good as any of brons finals opposition imo

Heediot
11-30-2017, 07:02 AM
Sorry, but Jordan didn't coast on defense. Dude was all defense till he retired the 2nd time.

Heediot
11-30-2017, 07:08 AM
Comparing LeBron to Jordan directly never made sense to me. They played in two different eras. LeBron is more athletically gifted than Jordan and will have more efficient stats on his side, but that the case with every generation over the previous generation.

The key is to compare LeBron to his peers and Jordan to his peers and see which one was more dominant. Unfortunately for LeBron, he's never going to win as many titles as Jordan.

This is an era where if you have a shaky jump shot you can win MVP. Rose, RW, LeBron, Giannis (pretty soon is a good guess), Outside chance of Simmons. As long as you can beat your man athletically and physically going north south, the game and rules help. These guys are north and south types too, none specialize in an Kyrie/curry/harden type of beating your man off the dribble. Back then you needed to beat your man off the dribble and break him down vs. north and south. The mid-range game had to be respected as well.

Heediot
11-30-2017, 07:13 AM
The thing is, LeBron is 6'8 260. Karl Malone but with speed of a PG. That's not something Jordan was. He was more finesse. LeBron's an athlete where if aliens were invading, he's the type of athlete you DON'T want them to take powers from. The fact he's never gotten seriously hurt and has that much mileage on him while still being in his fifteenth season putting career high numbers in some categories is just unreal. Curry, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Wade, Melo, Irving, Draymond, KD. All injured and took time off. LeBron, never.

Your underestimating Jordan. He had speed, agility, finesse and power. Pound for pound dude was strong.Rodman I think pound for pound is the strongest guy i've seen. Bron has more power and speed in a sprint. Jordan has agility and better first step. Doesn't need a pick or two to get to the hole with ease. Bron needs to be in motion to mazimize his ability to get to the rim because his first step isn't the greatest.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2017, 09:51 AM
Sorry, but Jordan didn't coast on defense. Dude was all defense till he retired the 2nd time.

to be fair, just like Kobe, he was getting lifetime achievement awards the last 5-6 years of his career. Jordan was not deserving of plenty of those all defensive teams.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2017, 09:54 AM
This is an era where if you have a shaky jump shot you can win MVP. Rose, RW, LeBron, Giannis (pretty soon is a good guess), Outside chance of Simmons. As long as you can beat your man athletically and physically going north south, the game and rules help. These guys are north and south types too, none specialize in an Kyrie/curry/harden type of beating your man off the dribble. Back then you needed to beat your man off the dribble and break him down vs. north and south. The mid-range game had to be respected as well.

well, with the rule changes in the early 2000's, the floor opened way up. You can still build walls with zone, to shade the floor against certain players/sets, but it's not like the 90's anymore, where the trench big man ran the offense, and teams just packed in the defense because the opposition didn't have multiple three point shooters to make you pay. Stick with the 1-2 shooters teams had, and you were fine.

The guys you mentioned would still be awesome back then, once you got past your man on the perimeter, you weren't greeted by a wall, because no zone was allowed. Greats would be great anytime is the point.

Hawkeye15
11-30-2017, 09:54 AM
Your underestimating Jordan. He had speed, agility, finesse and power. Pound for pound dude was strong. Bron has more power and speed in a sprint. Jordan has agility and better first step. Doesn't need a pick or two to get to the hole with ease. Bron needs to be in motion to mazimize his ability to get to the rim because his first step isn't the greatest.

agreed

ewing
11-30-2017, 10:21 AM
to be fair, just like Kobe, he was getting lifetime achievement awards the last 5-6 years of his career. Jordan was not deserving of plenty of those all defensive teams.

Sorry fake new. The Bulls and Micheal were great on D his whole run.

prodigy
11-30-2017, 10:27 AM
The Bron-Bron fanboys so young and sooo ignorant .
Bron-Bron is not near as good as Wilt or MJ but I know that won't stop you from keeping your heads up his ***

Sound like an MJ fan girl and very ignorant.

europagnpilgrim
11-30-2017, 10:31 AM
No they weren't, Wilt just listened to a bad coach and after his injury wasn't the same offensive force

Yes he was, and Jordan got lucky after all the dynasties fell off to win his rings and Lebron got lucky that the league has gone to **** on a wide level to dominate, and he had to go form his superteam to knock off his nemesis, now he is going to have to do it again to knock off his new boogey man, the Warriors and those Rockets possibly

I don't imagine any player will be the same force after undergoing 2 knee surgeries basically at the same time and coming back in like 4 months to perform, what a freak of nature Wilt was and will always be

your one liners are really amazing, you went from actually saying something to just being a one liner quitter

europagnpilgrim
11-30-2017, 10:32 AM
Mj didn't need the ball. Pippen did


MJ didn't need the ball? well he damn sure ''wanted'' and ''demanded'' the ball/his shots to a super fault as explained by Pippen and Grant in interviews

your account has to be hacked saying something this damn silly

europagnpilgrim
11-30-2017, 10:35 AM
AI never beat a team as good as the spurs, never put up the numbers cp3 did and he sucked defensively

AI was never on a team that was viewed as legit contenders while CP3 was with the Clippers, AI never played on a team as good as the Spurs to even view them capable of beating them, when they beat the Spurs during reg season it was about as surprising as one could be since they weren't better but they had that special talented guy who wore #3, the original not replica version in CP3

europagnpilgrim
11-30-2017, 10:41 AM
iverson was a 40/10 threat nightly lmao

that must mean 40 shots / ten in the flow of the offense


he was a 40pts/10assists/5-10steals type of threat, and how many players are capable of putting up 40 shots in one game which is very hard to do, then add on top of that why would a player need to take that many

you are the type of person to think Mckie and Snow should have combined for 40shots a game and let Iverson take up the scraps and get his 8 shots a game

I am started to feel you guys on here cherish and value 5ppg career scorers more over top 10 career scorers, that is comedy at its finest

RowBTrice
11-30-2017, 10:48 AM
Is mike now straight up one word, or......?

Hawkeye15
11-30-2017, 11:25 AM
Sorry fake new. The Bulls and Micheal were great on D his whole run.

they were. But Mike wasn't deserving of those tail end defensive teams. Unless we are cool with 3 Bulls on 1st team all defense?

ewing
11-30-2017, 12:02 PM
they were. But Mike wasn't deserving of those tail end defensive teams. Unless we are cool with 3 Bulls on 1st team all defense?

Yeah he was. Guys got all star appearance and all defensive team mentions b/c they played with Mike. Mike didn't get them b/c he played with other people. he was the best defensive 2 guard in the league. They had 3 guys once and if there was a guy that didn't belong it was Dennis. He did not defend nearly as well away from the basket at the end. Then again they did win 72 games so to answer your question yeah Iím
Ok with it

mightybosstone
11-30-2017, 12:29 PM
yes, LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan. However, his career is not. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. LeBron ran into much tougher finals opponents, and his 2011 choke job against the Mavs will haunt him forever.

But yes, as far as GOAT goes, the only reason basketball doesn't have a strong debate, is because Jordan's playoff/finals results are just too hard to catch, on top of him being individually a top 3 talent to ever play.

This. If we're just talking about ability on the court, I think Lebron's peak is on Jordan's level. And in terms of just the eye test, I think he's reached the point where he's reached Jordan and even surpassed him in some areas (primarily as a post scorer and perimeter shooter). That being said, he'll likely always be No. 2 in all-time discussions because of Jordan's ridiculous postseason resume. If Lebron somehow ended his career with 5 or 6 rings, maybe it's a different story, but that just doesn't seem likely today.

Chronz
11-30-2017, 04:56 PM
Sorry fake new. The Bulls and Micheal were great on D his whole run.

Nah he was a better defender in Washington than those final 2 years. Btw, saying mj wasn't worthy of all the D doesn't mean he sucked at it. He could've been decent, did the bulls even miss his defense in retirement?

Chronz
11-30-2017, 04:57 PM
This. If we're just talking about ability on the court, I think Lebron's peak is on Jordan's level. And in terms of just the eye test, I think he's reached the point where he's reached Jordan and even surpassed him in some areas (primarily as a post scorer and perimeter shooter). That being said, he'll likely always be No. 2 in all-time discussions because of Jordan's ridiculous postseason resume. If Lebron somehow ended his career with 5 or 6 rings, maybe it's a different story, but that just doesn't seem likely today.

Post scorer? Maybe post facilitator but I need to see Bron stick to the post to buy it

Chronz
11-30-2017, 05:06 PM
Yes he was, and Jordan got lucky after all the dynasties fell off to win his rings and Lebron got lucky that the league has gone to **** on a wide level to dominate, and he had to go form his superteam to knock off his nemesis, now he is going to have to do it again to knock off his new boogey man, the Warriors and those Rockets possibly

I don't imagine any player will be the same force after undergoing 2 knee surgeries basically at the same time and coming back in like 4 months to perform, what a freak of nature Wilt was and will always be

your one liners are really amazing, you went from actually saying something to just being a one liner quitter
Creating a super team (child talk) doesn't mean **** to me considering not all players have the same career circumstances.

Wilt was on anther level, he stopped scoring, not because the talent level was that high, but because the coach was an idiot, its why he got fired and the new coach immediately got Wilt dropping 40 again (watch Wilt vs Lew first battle ever vs every other battle thereafter). Wilt would've tore **** up again if not for that knee. After that he revived la but people hold it against him for some reason.

I used to have a computer and this site used to kick ***. I still like your content tho. Your definitely woke

Chronz
11-30-2017, 05:11 PM
MJ didn't need the ball? well he damn sure ''wanted'' and ''demanded'' the ball/his shots to a super fault as explained by Pippen and Grant in interviews

your account has to be hacked saying something this damn silly

Nope, I'll back it with someone like Phil or whatever the funk I need to . Having the ball isn't the same as getting shots off. A guy like Reggie Miller gets shots off without demanding the ball, its why a pg like m. Jackson could thrive with him.

Look at a guy like rondo, he can't do much without the ball, he doesn't look to score, but you would be an idiot to think he wasn't ball dominant.

Put it this way, 2 point forwards don't mesh as well as 1 and a pure scorer. Pip and bron don't mesh as well imo

Chronz
11-30-2017, 05:13 PM
AI was never on a team that was viewed as legit contenders while CP3 was with the Clippers, AI never played on a team as good as the Spurs to even view them capable of beating them, when they beat the Spurs during reg season it was about as surprising as one could be since they weren't better but they had that special talented guy who wore #3, the original not replica version in CP3

That's cuz ai wasn't good enough. Never played that great in victory either. Never as productive or as good of a shooter passer defender intellect etc

Heediot
11-30-2017, 05:36 PM
well, with the rule changes in the early 2000's, the floor opened way up. You can still build walls with zone, to shade the floor against certain players/sets, but it's not like the 90's anymore, where the trench big man ran the offense, and teams just packed in the defense because the opposition didn't have multiple three point shooters to make you pay. Stick with the 1-2 shooters teams had, and you were fine.

The guys you mentioned would still be awesome back then, once you got past your man on the perimeter, you weren't greeted by a wall, because no zone was allowed. Greats would be great anytime is the point.

Paint was still clogged because their was less stretch bigs and small ball back then. Hand-checking also made it harder for you to set up your man. In the nba nowadays ball handlers have it so easy to get to their spots off the dribble and set up their man. Back then you needed more skill to set up your man like Kobe said. Hand checking isn't everything but it does give defenders more leverage.

Another subtle factor is, if the threat of punishment for driving in the lane to much, defenses will catch on and you might pay a price physically with hard hacks to make you think twice. Jordan had to change his game as he aged because of the punishment. Today, guys don't have that fear factor. There were also more pure shot blockers and certified defensive studs manning the paint,.

It's is still possible to be good, but personally I think to be MVP caliber you needed more skill back then. It's a different game, I guess guys from the 90's would adjust now, and vice versa.

Jeffy25
11-30-2017, 05:52 PM
AI was never on a team that was viewed as legit contenders while CP3 was with the Clippers, AI never played on a team as good as the Spurs to even view them capable of beating them, when they beat the Spurs during reg season it was about as surprising as one could be since they weren't better but they had that special talented guy who wore #3, the original not replica version in CP3

Paul is what made the Clippers the contenders you speak of.

Prior to CP3 showing up, they were never expected to do anything. They went 32-50 the year before he showed up, 22nd in offense, 18th in defense.
He shows up and they go 40-26 (66 games played) and are suddenly 4th in offense.

He is what made them contenders lol

AI was an inefficient, ball hog, chucker and CP3 runs circles around him all time.

AI spent his career being the only shooter on a bad offensive team, but played on some of the greatest defensive teams the game had in a really weak conference.

Jeffy25
11-30-2017, 06:04 PM
he was a 40pts/10assists/5-10steals type of threat, and how many players are capable of putting up 40 shots in one game which is very hard to do, then add on top of that why would a player need to take that many


Guess how many times AI put up a 40 point, 10 assist, 5 steal game?

Once - 2/19/04

It's happened 12 times in NBA history, Jordan is the only player who did it more than once (twice).

If you lower that down to 30 points, then AI did it 6 times. Btw, Chris Paul who you seem to hate? He did that 7 times lol, the most of any player in NBA history.



As for guys taking 40 shots?

Well any player can take 40 shots a night. That isn't a challenge at all. Just let a guy have the green light and it can happen.

There have been 38 individual games with 40 shots taken. AI did it 3 times. Kobe did it 10 times, easily the most of any one. Freaking David Cowens and Cazzie Russell did it.


Nobody thinks other players should have shot more. But if you put Chris Paul on that 76ers roster, they would win more games.

Jeffy25
11-30-2017, 06:08 PM
I have a few questions for those who have a problem with Bron changing teams, and saying Jordan didn't.


1. Would Bron be treated differently to you, if he had stayed in Cleveland and Bosh and Wade came to him instead?

2. Does it matter to you that Jordan played in an era where players didn't change teams, but Bron played in an era where Durant joins the Warriors, where Garnett and Allen join Pierce, etc.

Do these things matter?

Sssmush
11-30-2017, 06:10 PM
Unfortunately, as good as LeBron is, we have to be fair: It doesn't do anything for his career unless he wins a championship. It's come to a point where this reg season LeBron will do MVP things but we'll find ourselves always saying he's below MJ because of rings. I'm as big of a LeBron fan as any other person out there but unless he gets those ring counts up and finds a way to beat the Warriors or something, he isn't moving up to #1. He's for sure ending up #2 in my books if he can at least put up 2-3 elite seasons and then drift away with 3-4 really great seasons. If he gets up to #1 in scoring, no question he has surpassed KAJ.

Yeah, we might also mention that the playoff officiating in the Jordan era was a bit suspect at times, and it did seem as if the league was highly invested in the ďJordan champion, Jordan GOATĒ narrative. So ultimately it is more valid to compare them as players and statistically than counting titles

ewing
11-30-2017, 07:13 PM
Nah he was a better defender in Washington than those final 2 years. Btw, saying mj wasn't worthy of all the D doesn't mean he sucked at it. He could've been decent, did the bulls even miss his defense in retirement?

You remember Pete Myers? He was on my Knicks the year before. He was totally elite defensively. So yeah they still had a great D when they replace MJ with another one of the best defenders in the league. Pete wasnít good enough on the other side to make a name for himself but I thought he was the best defensive guard on the Knicks before he went to the bulls


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FlashBolt
11-30-2017, 08:45 PM
I have a few questions for those who have a problem with Bron changing teams, and saying Jordan didn't.


1. Would Bron be treated differently to you, if he had stayed in Cleveland and Bosh and Wade came to him instead?

2. Does it matter to you that Jordan played in an era where players didn't change teams, but Bron played in an era where Durant joins the Warriors, where Garnett and Allen join Pierce, etc.

Do these things matter?

Your answer depends on the type of demographic you're polling. The morality of it matters in terms of legacy but it shouldn't matter in terms of impact. Does it matter if the Warriors drafted their team? I mean, stacked is stacked, ain't it? And it's funny people blame Lebron for changing teams... realistically, he changed teams twice. He came back to a dreadful Cleveland team. Not exactly the best circumstances. You could definitely make the case that him going to the Spurs would have gave him the best opportunity to continue winning rings but he didn't do it.

Heediot
11-30-2017, 08:45 PM
James would be a beast defender back then though. I think the culture back then throughout the nba didn't care about rest. It was old school so you were expected to play and when you played you were expected to give your best. I don't think the guy coasts if he were in that era. With his body, strength and lateral foot speed, if allowed to handcheck he would rank among the top perimeter defenders.

oak2455
11-30-2017, 08:48 PM
yes, LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan. However, his career is not. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. LeBron ran into much tougher finals opponents, and his 2011 choke job against the Mavs will haunt him forever.

But yes, as far as GOAT goes, the only reason basketball doesn't have a strong debate, is because Jordan's playoff/finals results are just too hard to catch, on top of him being individually a top 3 talent to ever play.

You forgot Him quitting against the Celtics . Also I donít remember MJ changing teams like his underwear. Lbj will be on another team next year

FlashBolt
11-30-2017, 08:51 PM
Theo Ratliff will never get any credit for making up for AI's terrible gambles to rack steals up.. By size alone and his quickness, AI just played through passing lanes. He wasn't a very good defender. His defensive-oriented team deserves a lot of credit for being able to handle the game defensively. Shame he was injured. I think he was better than Mutumbo that season

ewing
11-30-2017, 09:19 PM
Theo Ratliff will never get any credit for making up for AI's terrible gambles to rack steals up.. By size alone and his quickness, AI just played through passing lanes. He wasn't a very good defender. His defensive-oriented team deserves a lot of credit for being able to handle the game defensively. Shame he was injured. I think he was better than Mutumbo that season

Theo and Mount were huge defesive forces. Eric Snow and Arron McKey were also elite on that end

benny01
12-01-2017, 02:18 AM
Think everyone should do a group project and watch 10 playoff games from both players at random. The answer will quickly present itself. Jordan Jordan Jordan.

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 02:43 AM
Think everyone should do a group project and watch 10 playoff games from both players at random. The answer will quickly present itself. Jordan Jordan Jordan.

Actually, depending on which rings you look at, Jordan could look as if he stands no chance against Bron.

ewing
12-01-2017, 08:23 AM
Actually, depending on which rings you look at, Jordan could look as if he stands no chance against Bron.

you could with games but if you did series Jordan crushes Bron. That's not a knock on Bron its just true. MJ is the Barry Bonds of basketball. If you want you can try to compare him to Wilt just like you can try to compare Bonds to Ruth but no modern player on his level. Its MJ then everyone else.

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 09:48 AM
Guess how many times AI put up a 40 point, 10 assist, 5 steal game?

Once - 2/19/04

It's happened 12 times in NBA history, Jordan is the only player who did it more than once (twice).

If you lower that down to 30 points, then AI did it 6 times. Btw, Chris Paul who you seem to hate? He did that 7 times lol, the most of any player in NBA history.



As for guys taking 40 shots?

Well any player can take 40 shots a night. That isn't a challenge at all. Just let a guy have the green light and it can happen.

There have been 38 individual games with 40 shots taken. AI did it 3 times. Kobe did it 10 times, easily the most of any one. Freaking David Cowens and Cazzie Russell did it.


Nobody thinks other players should have shot more. But if you put Chris Paul on that 76ers roster, they would win more games.

Type of threat is what I said, I didn't say he would put it up every single time or have done it many of times, its like me saying Jordan was a type to be a threat for 50 points nightly and I think he has done it like 35 or so times in his career while Wilt did it more times than that in one season

Now go look up the games where Iverson flirted with 40 and 10 playing with the scrub finishers and scorers until he got a baby version of Iggy/Korver who were upgrades but nothing all nba caliber/special, though Iggy was a hell of a athlete/jumper coming out of I think Zona

don't hate CP3 at all, he is a Iverson lover, I think both players are two of the best ever regardless of position, if you put CP3 on that roster with Snow and Mckie they do not win more games, If Iverson didn't sit out his final 5 games that 01' season they win 60 games, CP3 overpassing to those 5ppg career scorers would have gotten them nowhere fast

now if you are talking about the current 76ers roster then both would do more indeed

and not any player can take 40 shots in a game, its hard and taxing as hell on the body and your team would have to be pretty ****ing average for any 1 player to be taking that many shots, its the reason why Iverson was taking those shots because he had career 5ppg career scorers on his team, how is that not hard to figure out?

its a reason why 40shots is an absurb number because no player should be taken that many unless the situation calls for it and Iverson situation called for it many a times in his 76ers stint, why do you think his shot total dropped from 23shots per game to 18 per game when he went to Denver and then 14per game when he went to Detroit? because of the talent level was better in Denver with Melo who could help carry the load where he didn't have to shoot nowhere near 40 times in a game and in Detroit they ran a system that required a bunch of passing and sets

so if he was such this super ballhog that you and others claim he was(which is so far from the truth once you go back and watch the games and see what he was working with) then he would have continued jacking 23shots per game in Denver and in Detroit

nobody thinks other players should have shot more? what are you talking about? a player shoots and shoots based on what his team situation is, Larry Brown moved Iverson to shooting guard from point to offset the lack of scoring punch that they have, I mean they brought in Snow who was averaging 3ppg with Sonics riding the bench and Mckie who had a career high of 10ppg prior to joining Iverson and averaged like 5-6ppg for his career and that was his 7yr core in Philly, if you put CP3 on that roster they would still average the 11-12ppg they averaged with Iverson because that's what they were capable of doing, so in essence Iverson did make his teammates better and got them paid handsomely, from Snow to Dalembert and so on

nobody would win a title with Snow or Dalembert as the starters you depend on, not CP3 or Nash or Stockton or Archibald or Zeke or Magic or whoever else you can fill in the blank, Jordan as well

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 09:59 AM
you could with games but if you did series Jordan crushes Bron. That's not a knock on Bron its just true. MJ is the Barry Bonds of basketball. If you want you can try to compare him to Wilt just like you can try to compare Bonds to Ruth but no modern player on his level. Its MJ then everyone else.

Wilt Chamberlain was 50x the athlete of Ruth and dominated while having to deal with all that other social unrest back then, to me Wilt is head and shoulders above Ruth so we can compare Jordan vs Wilt and I am drafting Wilt every single time if its those two at the top of the draft board

Bonds is over Ruth as well

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:01 AM
Actually, depending on which rings you look at, Jordan could look as if he stands no chance against Bron.

well if you look at Bron against Mavs then he doesn't stand a chance against PG13

the guy went from looking all world top 3 ever first 3 rounds to not even knowing how to play once he got to the Finals that season, I saw it and was like the powers that be told him to freeze himself out, because the very next Finals against OKC he came out and looked like he was top 3 ever once again

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:07 AM
Theo and Mount were huge defesive forces. Eric Snow and Arron McKey were also elite on that end


its a fine line between being elite and being that's all you are capable of doing, Snow and Mckie and Mutumbo were just that, defenders, Ratliff was an athletic defender big man who fit better with Iverson and he got traded because of a freak injury

and if Snow and Mckie are elite defenders when did they make 1st or 2nd team all defense multiple years? Mutumbo winning DPOY makes his case but when he arrived in Philly he wasn't the Nuggets or Hawks early version, he was on the downside and just played until he was damn near 50 once he left there

you guys throw out the word elite just because that's all a player does or is capable of doing, just because Lebron is shooting 57percent from the field this year doesn't mean his is an elite jumpshooter, watch the game and see that out of his 20 attempts around 15shots are paint shots/layups/dunks, so his percentage is similar to how Shaq would score but Lebron would just sprinkle in a couple 3's and a couple of MJ fadeaways to mix it up but he is a layup king and since he is the biggest PointFoward why not use the size and do it that way, still doesn't mean he is an elite range shooter because of his field goal percentage

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:14 AM
Nope, I'll back it with someone like Phil or whatever the funk I need to . Having the ball isn't the same as getting shots off. A guy like Reggie Miller gets shots off without demanding the ball, its why a pg like m. Jackson could thrive with him.

Look at a guy like rondo, he can't do much without the ball, he doesn't look to score, but you would be an idiot to think he wasn't ball dominant.

Put it this way, 2 point forwards don't mesh as well as 1 and a pure scorer. Pip and bron don't mesh as well imo

Jordan was a scorer/shooter in volume, Miller was a screen runner baseline to baseline to shoot when open or kick his legs out to draw contact

You said Jordan didn't need the ball and its clear as day he demanded the ball and needed the ball to do his scoring magic, trust me if you win just 1 scoring title you need the ball, you demand the ball, now add 9 more to that one and that puts it into overdrive, Jordan needed the ball, I don't even know why you mentioned Mark Jackson and Miller because I never said Jordan couldn't play with certain players all I said is that he needed the ball, which is all facts

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:19 AM
Creating a super team (child talk) doesn't mean **** to me considering not all players have the same career circumstances.

Wilt was on anther level, he stopped scoring, not because the talent level was that high, but because the coach was an idiot, its why he got fired and the new coach immediately got Wilt dropping 40 again (watch Wilt vs Lew first battle ever vs every other battle thereafter). Wilt would've tore **** up again if not for that knee. After that he revived la but people hold it against him for some reason.

I used to have a computer and this site used to kick ***. I still like your content tho. Your definitely woke


creating a superteam don't mean **** to me either, its just what that Bron guy had to do to get past the Celtics and I guess to a lesser extent the Magic

well I heard from his peers he stopped scoring because of the coaches request to do more and they had a lil more talent to work with overall, just like when he was with Lakers they had West and for lil bit Baylor and others so he would pass and pass a lot more then when the media would ask him about scoring he would drop his 50 and 60 then go back to passing, of course Wilt would have destroyed whoever pre knee surgery and still did a damn good job after the procedure given the circumstances

that's what I am saying about you, you were always on point regardless if you were right or wrong but you had substance, now your one liners are like a cop out, like a white flag troll move or something because you are better than that, your posts/rants use to have substance, rather I agreed or not

prodigy
12-01-2017, 10:21 AM
This. If we're just talking about ability on the court, I think Lebron's peak is on Jordan's level. And in terms of just the eye test, I think he's reached the point where he's reached Jordan and even surpassed him in some areas (primarily as a post scorer and perimeter shooter). That being said, he'll likely always be No. 2 in all-time discussions because of Jordan's ridiculous postseason resume. If Lebron somehow ended his career with 5 or 6 rings, maybe it's a different story, but that just doesn't seem likely today.

If ur going by rings take Lebron and MJ out of the goat conversation.

prodigy
12-01-2017, 10:25 AM
You forgot Him quitting against the Celtics . Also I donít remember MJ changing teams like his underwear. Lbj will be on another team next year

If lebron leaves in the off-season it will be hard to disagree with you. But like others said he changed teams pretty much once. Then came back to a bad cavs team and made them elite. Could've went elsewhere and won faster.

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:31 AM
Paul is what made the Clippers the contenders you speak of.

Prior to CP3 showing up, they were never expected to do anything. They went 32-50 the year before he showed up, 22nd in offense, 18th in defense.
He shows up and they go 40-26 (66 games played) and are suddenly 4th in offense.

He is what made them contenders lol

AI was an inefficient, ball hog, chucker and CP3 runs circles around him all time.

AI spent his career being the only shooter on a bad offensive team, but played on some of the greatest defensive teams the game had in a really weak conference.

But they had the pieces in place for a CP3 to come and take them to next level

Iverson got drafted by a 18 win team and by year 3 had them in the playoffs and pushing 50 wins

when Iverson would sit out games they would barely be able to crack 70pts it seemed like it, then when he came back then would clear 100 or flirt with it easily, now is that a good sign or bad one for Iverson?i say former

same ole clichť media brainwash talk, Iverson was a inefficient ballhog chucker, cry me a Ocean

and since CP3 is so dominant how far did the Clippers go since he made them contenders?

so why did he spend his career as the only shooter/scorer his 10yrs in philly when in the draft you could have had Pierce/Tmac or Tmac/Dirk on your side? how much would Iverson shoot then had he had those type of allstar/future HOF'ers to work with?

how many times did Snow/Mckie/Lynch/Hill make 1st team all defense? or 2nd team all defense

he played with the coach for 6yrs who valued and preached defense and defense and defense and defense, L Brown, so his scheme for defense was good and he had all defenders to work with so they should have been good, even Iverson led the league in steals 3 straight years so he chipped in as well

and its so funny that if you look at all the past steals leaders in the league they are all looked upon as decent to really good defenders, only until you see Iverson on the list then somehow he sucks at it

Iverson won back to back DPOY in the big east before joining the nba because of the steals and style he played and did it at the next level the same way, 10 steals in a playoff game, you are who you are until the media hype train shows up to either pump you up or derail you

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:38 AM
Heís an incredible player, one of the top 10 in history,Ē former Pistons coach Chuck Daly told a visitor before Iverson ignited and torched Detroitís defense for game-high totals of 37 points and 15 assists in a 2005 game at Wachovia Center.


ďThe difference (between defending Jordan and Iverson),Ē Daly added, ďis that Michael had Scottie (Pippen), who was one of the best players in the league.Ē


The late great Daly just compared a 5'10'' guy to a 6'4'' guy and said they were pretty much the same players but one player had the star sidekick and the little guy didn't

that lil guy must have been dynamite to being compared to the psd/media GOAT, the pound for pound GOAT is something special, well according to Lebron he is the poundforpoundGOAT

ewing
12-01-2017, 10:48 AM
its a fine line between being elite and being that's all you are capable of doing, Snow and Mckie and Mutumbo were just that, defenders, Ratliff was an athletic defender big man who fit better with Iverson and he got traded because of a freak injury

and if Snow and Mckie are elite defenders when did they make 1st or 2nd team all defense multiple years? Mutumbo winning DPOY makes his case but when he arrived in Philly he wasn't the Nuggets or Hawks early version, he was on the downside and just played until he was damn near 50 once he left there

you guys throw out the word elite just because that's all a player does or is capable of doing, just because Lebron is shooting 57percent from the field this year doesn't mean his is an elite jumpshooter, watch the game and see that out of his 20 attempts around 15shots are paint shots/layups/dunks, so his percentage is similar to how Shaq would score but Lebron would just sprinkle in a couple 3's and a couple of MJ fadeaways to mix it up but he is a layup king and since he is the biggest PointFoward why not use the size and do it that way, still doesn't mean he is an elite range shooter because of his field goal percentage

One way players have always been over looked for defensive accolades. Doesnít mean they arenít elite defenders. I mean why didnít Joe Wolf ever make a team. Where are Greg Anthony and Linsey Hunters awards? Those guy were elite defenders


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europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 10:50 AM
If ur going by rings take Lebron and MJ out of the goat conversation.

Exactly, that's the reason why I don't use rings when comparing players because it would be Russell and his Celtic buddies vs the world since they all would have like 8-11 rings

people use the rings thing to pump up Jordan who went 6 for 6 with 6 mvp's, and its that 666 thing as well, numbers have significant meaning, but that's a conspiracy as well(flashinapanbolt)

Russell almost doubles Jordan in rings so he should be the runaway GOAT or Lew should with his total body of work with the same number of rings as Jordan, from HS to NCAA to NBA the 3 most dominant forces ever are Lew/Wilt/Russell if we are talking about across the board with winning and impact/stats

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 11:25 AM
One way players have always been over looked for defensive accolades. Doesnít mean they arenít elite defenders. I mean why didnít Joe Wolf ever make a team. Where are Greg Anthony and Linsey Hunters awards? Those guy were elite defenders


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Greg Anthony was known for defense ever since his UNLV days, Hunter was a scoring guard who I guess later on worked on his defense but he wasn't known as a defensive pest when he first entered the league, that came later as his offense game went down

forget the accolades, where was the outcry for these players when they didn't receive them? I don't recall anyone screaming that Snow or Mckie should be 1st or 2nd team defense, I have heard players say they played solid defense and at the same time I have heard players say they cant shoot a rock in the ocean

I have never heard of Lynch being mentioned as a wing stopper, I have heard them say Lynch is a solid defender and is a 8ppg career scorer, these guys aren't elite one way players its all they can do so the focus is on there more

its just like Iverson leading the league in steals and scoring, lets focus on his scoring which takes away from the others like steals and leading the league in minutes played and knocked around across the hardwood per game, he was the toughest player as well as the smallest and still didn't bend or break

Lebron said he played like a 6'8'' shooting guard, Lebron said a guy Nate Robinson/CP3 height plays as big what Lebron actual listed height is, amazing

WaDe03
12-01-2017, 11:48 AM
Good lord lol

ewing
12-01-2017, 12:08 PM
Greg Anthony was known for defense ever since his UNLV days, Hunter was a scoring guard who I guess later on worked on his defense but he wasn't known as a defensive pest when he first entered the league, that came later as his offense game went down

forget the accolades, where was the outcry for these players when they didn't receive them? I don't recall anyone screaming that Snow or Mckie should be 1st or 2nd team defense, I have heard players say they played solid defense and at the same time I have heard players say they cant shoot a rock in the ocean

I have never heard of Lynch being mentioned as a wing stopper, I have heard them say Lynch is a solid defender and is a 8ppg career scorer, these guys aren't elite one way players its all they can do so the focus is on there more

its just like Iverson leading the league in steals and scoring, lets focus on his scoring which takes away from the others like steals and leading the league in minutes played and knocked around across the hardwood per game, he was the toughest player as well as the smallest and still didn't bend or break

Lebron said he played like a 6'8'' shooting guard, Lebron said a guy Nate Robinson/CP3 height plays as big what Lebron actual listed height is, amazing

Im not knocking AI. Iím saying Arron McKey and Eric Snow were top notch defenders. So were the other guys I mentioned. No one was going to clammer for them though bc there other holes made then nothing more then good role players


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IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 12:27 PM
its a fine line between being elite and being that's all you are capable of doing, Snow and Mckie and Mutumbo were just that, defenders, Ratliff was an athletic defender big man who fit better with Iverson and he got traded because of a freak injury

and if Snow and Mckie are elite defenders when did they make 1st or 2nd team all defense multiple years? Mutumbo winning DPOY makes his case but when he arrived in Philly he wasn't the Nuggets or Hawks early version, he was on the downside and just played until he was damn near 50 once he left there

you guys throw out the word elite just because that's all a player does or is capable of doing, just because Lebron is shooting 57percent from the field this year doesn't mean his is an elite jumpshooter, watch the game and see that out of his 20 attempts around 15shots are paint shots/layups/dunks, so his percentage is similar to how Shaq would score but Lebron would just sprinkle in a couple 3's and a couple of MJ fadeaways to mix it up but he is a layup king and since he is the biggest PointFoward why not use the size and do it that way, still doesn't mean he is an elite range shooter because of his field goal percentage

So how do you explain 42% from 3

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 01:09 PM
So how do you explain 42% from 3


So Lebron is a natural better shooter from range over Korver/Curry/Miller/Allen/Bird/E Johnson/Person/Redick and many other snipers who have failed to shoot 42pct from 3? is Lebron shooting 42pct while being a volume 3pt shooter like Harden is averaging 11 attempts per game or is he shooting around 4-5 threes per game?

after 15yrs of watching Lebron I don't need to explain his 42pct from 3, are you saying he can naturally shoot as good as Kerr/Armstrong/Paxson? don't fool yourself

its like when Bowen from the Spurs use to hit his 3's from a nice clip after working and working on it, so what its not like he could outshoot Allen even though his corner 3pt pct might be higher, stop reaching for straws and stick to the script

its like how Kawhi last year or past couple years have been at the top of the 3pt pct mark but its not like teams fear his 3pt shot as much as they do his drive and mid range game which is his bread and butter but if him and Lebron get off 5 attempts per game they are capable of making 2, whooptie doo

I bet if Leonard and Lebron start taking 11's threes per game that percentage would drop from 42 to 32 in a heartbeat and it still wouldn't change my view of how Lebron shoots 3's because like I said coming into the league Lebron on his player report said he had 26ft range on his shot, meaning he could pull from there but it wasn't a natural pull up like both Currys(father&son) who are supreme snipers from 3, anywhere around the arc area

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 01:16 PM
So Lebron is a natural better shooter from range over Korver/Curry/Miller/Allen/Bird/E Johnson/Person/Redick and many other snipers who have failed to shoot 42pct from 3? is Lebron shooting 42pct while being a volume 3pt shooter like Harden is averaging 11 attempts per game or is he shooting around 4-5 threes per game?

after 15yrs of watching Lebron I don't need to explain his 42pct from 3, are you saying he can naturally shoot as good as Kerr/Armstrong/Paxson? don't fool yourself

its like when Bowen from the Spurs use to hit his 3's from a nice clip after working and working on it, so what its not like he could outshoot Allen even though his corner 3pt pct might be higher, stop reaching for straws and stick to the script

its like how Kawhi last year or past couple years have been at the top of the 3pt pct mark but its not like teams fear his 3pt shot as much as they do his drive and mid range game which is his bread and butter but if him and Lebron get off 5 attempts per game they are capable of making 2, whooptie doo

I bet if Leonard and Lebron start taking 11's threes per game that percentage would drop from 42 to 32 in a heartbeat and it still wouldn't change my view of how Lebron shoots 3's because like I said coming into the league Lebron on his player report said he had 26ft range on his shot, meaning he could pull from there but it wasn't a natural pull up like both Currys(father&son) who are supreme snipers from 3, anywhere around the arc area

Why are you so big on the word ďnaturallyĒ. Wtf does that have to do with the hard work he puts in every year to get better. Naturally gtfoh

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 01:18 PM
Im not knocking AI. Iím saying Arron McKey and Eric Snow were top notch defenders. So were the other guys I mentioned. No one was going to clammer for them though bc there other holes made then nothing more then good role players


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I am not knocking Snow/Mckie either, I am just saying that all they could do was defend and they played in a perfect scheme where the head HOF coach was a defense minded genius to a superfault, they played slow half court style where Iverson is more fast pace player like he played at G'Town and how Mike D teams play with the space and pace, so Iverson was playing out his zone and still fit in

its like me saying Bowen from the Spurs was a top notch shooter because he shot wide open 3's all the time and made some, but when you look at it he couldn't create his own shot nor for others consistently like he could play d/undercut players and whatever other dirty tactic he came out the woodworks with

Snow and Mckie were hard nose players who thrived at being gritty and playing defense for a coach who dreams eats and ***** that side of the ball, Brown got lucky that Iverson could go off for 50 nightly when he was young or the Sixers would have been even worse off with the talent on that roster

just because a player can only do one thing and relies on it over and over doesn't mean he is top notch just like because a player shoots 20+ a game doesn't make him a ballhog until you dissect the circumstances, Jordan was called a ballhog scoring champ pre 91 so what does that make him now, a ballhog scoring nba champ? I guess so

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 01:24 PM
Why are you so big on the word ďnaturallyĒ. Wtf does that have to do with the hard work he puts in every year to get better. Naturally gtfoh


Well if you follow basketball you would know that Curry got his shot naturally basically from his father who was a killer shooter from anywhere after halfcourt

naturally is going back to those players HS days and seeing what they could do, like Lebron having his natural freak abilities, sure he put hard work into his body to make sure its on point but he naturally had the gifts to work on, he was a big freak of nature in HS, just like he is in the NBA

Korver been a shooter all his life, naturally is something you bring with you into the nba from my view of it, that's why I use that word, why are you so little on the word ''naturally''?

also I notice how you didn't respond to any of the substance I said but instead focused on the word '''naturally'''

so I think you should STFOH, the S is for stay

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 01:33 PM
Sixers 2001 weren't a great offensive team. They were just average. Their defense was elite. You do the math, guys. Allen Iverson didn't really play much defense at all. Sixers won games because they were elite defensively. AI was fortunate to be playing on a team that really catered to his ballhogging mentality. Could you imagine AI playing that way in today's NBA? He would be crucified for his ineffectiveness. Fun as heck to watch but the guy just wasn't as impactful as some of you try and make it seem. After his 01 Finals appearance, he never amounted to much of anything else. In fact, teams actually got better after trading Iverson. Denver got way better. Pistons got way worse with AI. And their 2001 Finals appearance isn't like LeBron carrying the Cavs in 07. AI's teammates were much better and the competition in the East at that time was pretty even across teams.

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 01:37 PM
Well if you follow basketball you would know that Curry got his shot naturally basically from his father who was a killer shooter from anywhere after halfcourt

naturally is going back to those players HS days and seeing what they could do, like Lebron having his natural freak abilities, sure he put hard work into his body to make sure its on point but he naturally had the gifts to work on, he was a big freak of nature in HS, just like he is in the NBA

Korver been a shooter all his life, naturally is something you bring with you into the nba from my view of it, that's why I use that word, why are you so little on the word ''naturally''?

also I notice how you didn't respond to any of the substance I said but instead focused on the word '''naturally'''

so I think you should STFOH, the S is for stay

Okay, so let me ask you, where is the natural ability of Luke Walton? His dad was a monster. Where's Luke Walton's natural ability? What about Shaq's son? Where's his natural ability? You make it seem as if Curry just woke up shooting threes. The guy put in a lot of work and because of his frail body, shooting threes was his bread and butter. I wonder where MJ's son's natural ability is at.. can you find it for me? Oh, don't even get me started with Magic Johnson's "son's" natural ability... Get a grip with reality. The fact you tried implying Allen Iverson is the 2nd best ever shows you are out of touch with basketball. You should watch table tennis or something.

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 01:38 PM
I am not knocking Snow/Mckie either, I am just saying that all they could do was defend and they played in a perfect scheme where the head HOF coach was a defense minded genius to a superfault, they played slow half court style where Iverson is more fast pace player like he played at G'Town and how Mike D teams play with the space and pace, so Iverson was playing out his zone and still fit in

its like me saying Bowen from the Spurs was a top notch shooter because he shot wide open 3's all the time and made some, but when you look at it he couldn't create his own shot nor for others consistently like he could play d/undercut players and whatever other dirty tactic he came out the woodworks with

Snow and Mckie were hard nose players who thrived at being gritty and playing defense for a coach who dreams eats and ***** that side of the ball, Brown got lucky that Iverson could go off for 50 nightly when he was young or the Sixers would have been even worse off with the talent on that roster

just because a player can only do one thing and relies on it over and over doesn't mean he is top notch just like because a player shoots 20+ a game doesn't make him a ballhog until you dissect the circumstances, Jordan was called a ballhog scoring champ pre 91 so what does that make him now, a ballhog scoring nba champ? I guess so

"All they could do was defend."

And all AI could do was shoot the ball 25 times to score 30 points. Name me a player who would have a green light to shoot the ball that many times while doing nothing else for the team? At least RWB could pass and rebound. AI did none of that.

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 01:47 PM
Okay, so let me ask you, where is the natural ability of Luke Walton? His dad was a monster. Where's Luke Walton's natural ability? What about Shaq's son? Where's his natural ability? You make it seem as if Curry just woke up shooting threes. The guy put in a lot of work and because of his frail body, shooting threes was his bread and butter. I wonder where MJ's son's natural ability is at.. can you find it for me? Oh, don't even get me started with Magic Johnson's "son's" natural ability... Get a grip with reality. The fact you tried implying Allen Iverson is the 2nd best ever shows you are out of touch with basketball. You should watch table tennis or something.


When did I say that because your dad was good you had to be good, I used Curry as an example because people of today forget about his dad who could shoot lights out but he didn't have the bounce with the ball to pull up like his son, so in essence Curry Jr is better but not because his dad was worse

Curry did wake up shooting 3's, his dad had him with proper form soon as he could pick up a ball, natural is what you bring into the nba game its why I said go back and watch that player from HS to really gauge what a player can truly do if they are that good

like Chris Jackson, go back and watch him from HS to LSU to NBA, what did he have to improve on in the nba besides being short in height and not standing up for the anthem? he was amazing

is Shaq son playing ball? then I guess he is using whatever natural athletic ability he has and who did he it from the father or mother? or both? I would say Shaq since I don't have background on the mother

shooting 3's was Curry bread and butter because the father passed it down as he did to Seth who can light it up as well

I never said Iverson is 2nd best ever, I said you guys are crazy for putting him in the 30th range when he is the SugarRayRobinson of his sport, the best player poundforpound ever according to the genius and psd 2nd or 3rd ranked player in Lebron

I said how can a player be poundforpound the best and be in the 30th range, just like SugarRayRobinson is best boxer poundforpound by most and they have him in the 1-10 range for best boxers any weight division ever, that's how I look at Iverson, I guess Chuck Daly agrees with me as well

prodigy
12-01-2017, 01:48 PM
Exactly, that's the reason why I don't use rings when comparing players because it would be Russell and his Celtic buddies vs the world since they all would have like 8-11 rings

people use the rings thing to pump up Jordan who went 6 for 6 with 6 mvp's, and its that 666 thing as well, numbers have significant meaning, but that's a conspiracy as well(flashinapanbolt)

Russell almost doubles Jordan in rings so he should be the runaway GOAT or Lew should with his total body of work with the same number of rings as Jordan, from HS to NCAA to NBA the 3 most dominant forces ever are Lew/Wilt/Russell if we are talking about across the board with winning and impact/stats

I agree. If we are talking about straight up basketball talent. every aspect of offense and defense. Lebron is better then MJ. I understand the old guys hate hearing it. but its just a fact. BTW- Schroder was killing the cavs last night with his speed. until Lebron covered him and shut him down completely. O ya he also shut down Blake few games back. lol. He can cover anyone.

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 01:54 PM
"All they could do was defend."

And all AI could do was shoot the ball 25 times to score 30 points. Name me a player who would have a green light to shoot the ball that many times while doing nothing else for the team? At least RWB could pass and rebound. AI did none of that.

if I go and post Mckie/Hill/Snow/Lynch/Jones and whoever else PPG for career you would agree in spades that ''defense is all they could do''

how many rebounds is a 5'10'' guy supposed to average? weight 150lbs soak and wet? ask yourself this, why in the world would a team/owner/gm build a team around a guy that small to shoot 25x per game? and how is leading the league in minutes played(hurt a lot playing as well) and steals not be contributing? how can being the shooter/creator/decoy of your offense be doing nothing else? you are off tilt on this one

so last I checked and I am sure you have as well a team consist of having options on offense right, like for instance your team has a big 3 and I would say option 1=Russ option 2=PG13 option 3=Melo, now rewind back to that time when Iverson was those options combined, now go combine the shots your big 3 takes per game and now you will truly realize and admire what Iverson had to do because he was the teams truly only offensive option and he had to not only shoot but create and be a decoy for others to get shots as well, so Iverson shooting 25x is really holding back when you combine your big 3 shot per game, now I think about it Iverson should have average 40attempts per game and not 25

this is about as simple and basic as it can ever get

Iverson was getting 4rpg early in career, that's damn good for a player his size, if he was Westbrook height he would easily get 6-8rebounds per game, especially with the aggression he played with

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 01:59 PM
When did I say that because your dad was good you had to be good, I used Curry as an example because people of today forget about his dad who could shoot lights out but he didn't have the bounce with the ball to pull up like his son, so in essence Curry Jr is better but not because his dad was worse

Curry did wake up shooting 3's, his dad had him with proper form soon as he could pick up a ball, natural is what you bring into the nba game its why I said go back and watch that player from HS to really gauge what a player can truly do if they are that good

like Chris Jackson, go back and watch him from HS to LSU to NBA, what did he have to improve on in the nba besides being short in height and not standing up for the anthem? he was amazing

is Shaq son playing ball? then I guess he is using whatever natural athletic ability he has and who did he it from the father or mother? or both? I would say Shaq since I don't have background on the mother

shooting 3's was Curry bread and butter because the father passed it down as he did to Seth who can light it up as well

I never said Iverson is 2nd best ever, I said you guys are crazy for putting him in the 30th range when he is the SugarRayRobinson of his sport, the best player poundforpound ever according to the genius and psd 2nd or 3rd ranked player in Lebron

I said how can a player be poundforpound the best and be in the 30th range, just like SugarRayRobinson is best boxer poundforpound by most and they have him in the 1-10 range for best boxers any weight division ever, that's how I look at Iverson, I guess Chuck Daly agrees with me as well

1) You don't get your natural shot from your father. What kind of genetics is that in? You can get genetics from height and various physical factors but shooting the basketball is not one of them. You're just bringing up a coincidence and trying to establish that as factual. Stephen Curry is a great shooter because he has been shooting the ball since he was a baby. It just so happens his dad is a great shooter as well. It happens. "Curry did wake up shooting 3's. His dad had him with proper form as soon as he could pick up a ball." What? So you're implying that his dad TAUGHT him the form? If he's getting taught how to do something, it isn't natural.

2) Shaq's son is garbage and plays a completely different style of basketball. He got his height from Shaq and that's it.

3) "LeBron said he watched AI after Jordan. Why did he say that? Because AI was really that good." What's the point of you saying this other than you trying to make a case that AI was behind Jordan? LeBron watched AI because he was fun and exciting. I'd rather watch Russ than Curry or Kobe than LeBron. That doesn't make them better.

4) Are you seriously comparing pound for pound in a basketball sport to boxing? Pound for pound doesn't translate to basketball. It's for COMBAT sports because it's the ONLY statistical ranking and formula they can actually create. If it were up to my ranking, Allen Iverson would be in the 40-50th range. Your infatuation with Allen Iverson while hatred for LeBron just shows which type of player you value and sadly, those players never win.

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 02:01 PM
if I go and post Mckie/Hill/Snow/Lynch/Jones and whoever else PPG for career you would agree in spades that ''defense is all they could do''

how many rebounds is a 5'10'' guy supposed to average? weight 150lbs soak and wet? ask yourself this, why in the world would a team/owner/gm build a team around a guy that small to shoot 25x per game? and how is leading the league in minutes played(hurt a lot playing as well) and steals not be contributing? how can being the shooter/creator/decoy of your offense be doing nothing else? you are off tilt on this one

so last I checked and I am sure you have as well a team consist of having options on offense right, like for instance your team has a big 3 and I would say option 1=Russ option 2=PG13 option 3=Melo, now rewind back to that time when Iverson was those options combined, now go combine the shots your big 3 takes per game and now you will truly realize and admire what Iverson had to do because he was the teams truly only offensive option and he had to not only shoot but create and be a decoy for others to get shots as well, so Iverson shooting 25x is really holding back when you combine your big 3 shot per game, now I think about it Iverson should have average 40attempts per game and not 25

this is about as simple and basic as it can ever get

Iverson was getting 4rpg early in career, that's damn good for a player his size, if he was Westbrook height he would easily get 6-8rebounds per game, especially with the aggression he played with

You just went through a paragraph saying how AI was p4p the GOAT but now you're using his size as a reason he doesn't get rebounds? AI couldn't rebound, pass, or DEFEND. If he's 5'8 and can't rebound, that's his own problem. He's out there for a reason. If you're going to applaud the guy for being 5'8, then you have to understand that his height also subjects him to criticism.

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 02:18 PM
1) You don't get your natural shot from your father. What kind of genetics is that in? You can get genetics from height and various physical factors but shooting the basketball is not one of them. You're just bringing up a coincidence and trying to establish that as factual. Stephen Curry is a great shooter because he has been shooting the ball since he was a baby. It just so happens his dad is a great shooter as well. It happens. "Curry did wake up shooting 3's. His dad had him with proper form as soon as he could pick up a ball." What? So you're implying that his dad TAUGHT him the form? If he's getting taught how to do something, it isn't natural.

2) Shaq's son is garbage and plays a completely different style of basketball. He got his height from Shaq and that's it.

3) "LeBron said he watched AI after Jordan. Why did he say that? Because AI was really that good." What's the point of you saying this other than you trying to make a case that AI was behind Jordan? LeBron watched AI because he was fun and exciting. I'd rather watch Russ than Curry or Kobe than LeBron. That doesn't make them better.

4) Are you seriously comparing pound for pound in a basketball sport to boxing? Pound for pound doesn't translate to basketball. It's for COMBAT sports because it's the ONLY statistical ranking and formula they can actually create. If it were up to my ranking, Allen Iverson would be in the 40-50th range. Your infatuation with Allen Iverson while hatred for LeBron just shows which type of player you value and sadly, those players never win.

1. I said natural as to what you bring into the nba game wise, you are thinking about genetics and whatever else to try and make your view of it, but go back and read what I meant by me using natural in this form of it

2. ok Shaq son is garbage and got his natural height from his father, now watch Shaq son and then if he makes the jump into the nba give me a review on what he can do naturally(aka extremely well) prior to joining the association,strengths and weaknesses and I can tell you how good he will be

3. Lebron said his 2nd fav player was AI, now we all know was athletes(especially those good ones) growing up liked players who were the best, hence why Lebron said Jordan is his fav and others back then would say Baylor/Oscar/Wilt/Jabbar) and usually when we say this is my fav they are usually the best or top tier players, Lebron watched Iverson because he was super special, which has to be fun and exciting, to me watching Barry Bonds/Sanders was super fun and exciting because they were the two of the best ever, high on a alltime rankings list and they have 0 rings combined

4. did your boyfriend seriously compare a icon legend of the nba to the sport of boxing? where do you think I got the ammo to say he was the best pound for pound from? but you want to knock me for doing it

and bball is a combat sport, go ask Jordan before his titles, go ask Wilt who almost retired and they use to knock his teeth out, go ask those fans from the malice in the palace, go ask those players down in the paint getting caught with elbows to the throat/mouth is it a combat sport, tell Curry to quit wearing his mouthpiece and tell Irving to take off that mask

I guess it was Lebron infatuation for Iverson to rank him that high, you can have him in that ranking, just like SugarRayRobinson would be in your rankings that low as well, I like Lebron and Iverson equal, one is just a bigger version of the other and speaking of those you claim are winners have also been the biggest losers at one point, it took Jordan 7yrs to win and then he left out a loser with Washington and it took Lebron to take his talents to Miami after 7yrs to win now to only have people saying he will be a loser in the Finals until GS is broken up

so for every time they win in your book, they must lose as well

as above so below
as within so without

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 02:21 PM
1. I said natural as to what you bring into the nba game wise, you are thinking about genetics and whatever else to try and make your view of it, but go back and read what I meant by me using natural in this form of it

2. ok Shaq son is garbage and got his natural height from his father, now watch Shaq son and then if he makes the jump into the nba give me a review on what he can do naturally(aka extremely well) prior to joining the association,strengths and weaknesses and I can tell you how good he will be

3. Lebron said his 2nd fav player was AI, now we all know was athletes(especially those good ones) growing up liked players who were the best, hence why Lebron said Jordan is his fav and others back then would say Baylor/Oscar/Wilt/Jabbar) and usually when we say this is my fav they are usually the best or top tier players, Lebron watched Iverson because he was super special, which has to be fun and exciting, to me watching Barry Bonds/Sanders was super fun and exciting because they were the two of the best ever, high on a alltime rankings list and they have 0 rings combined

4. did your boyfriend seriously compare a icon legend of the nba to the sport of boxing? where do you think I got the ammo to say he was the best pound for pound from? but you want to knock me for doing it

and bball is a combat sport, go ask Jordan before his titles, go ask Wilt who almost retired and they use to knock his teeth out, go ask those fans from the malice in the palace, go ask those players down in the paint getting caught with elbows to the throat/mouth is it a combat sport, tell Curry to quit wearing his mouthpiece and tell Irving to take off that mask

I guess it was Lebron infatuation for Iverson to rank him that high, you can have him in that ranking, just like SugarRayRobinson would be in your rankings that low as well, I like Lebron and Iverson equal, one is just a bigger version of the other and speaking of those you claim are winners have also been the biggest losers at one point, it took Jordan 7yrs to win and then he left out a loser with Washington and it took Lebron to take his talents to Miami after 7yrs to win now to only have people saying he will be a loser in the Finals until GS is broken up

so for every time they win in your book, they must lose as well

as above so below
as within so without

What? You're the one making the claim that he's the p4p goat and that's why he should be ranked higher. In no way does that even correlate with being a better player. Allen Iverson wasn't as good as you think he is. He has a track record of losing and making teams worse. That's a fact. End of story. Bye.

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 02:24 PM
You just went through a paragraph saying how AI was p4p the GOAT but now you're using his size as a reason he doesn't get rebounds? AI couldn't rebound, pass, or DEFEND. If he's 5'8 and can't rebound, that's his own problem. He's out there for a reason. If you're going to applaud the guy for being 5'8, then you have to understand that his height also subjects him to criticism.


I used the poundforpound quote from your boyfriend Lebron, and if you know anything about ball how would you expect a midget to get more than 4 rebounds per game? that's amazing, Iverson cant pass yet when they run the Jordan rules on him in game 7 against Toronto he drops 16 dimes, he cant defend but won back to back DPOY in college in BigEast and then 3 straight years steals title and had 10 steals in a playoff game but he doesn't defend? so if a shot blocker leads the league for 3 straight years does that make him a player who cant or doesn't play defense? what about assist leaders, do they get punished for looking right pass to make to get that assist count? if he is 5'8'' then rebounding in the nba would be a problem, this isn't HS, just like most traditional big men Centers aren't bringing the ball up 80pct of the time and initiating the offense from top of the 3pt line, that's their problem though according to you

I do criticize Iverson for his height, its the only ''weakness'' he had coming into the league since he could do everything else that seems to have passed you up or maybe you weren't watching college ball back when he played

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 02:35 PM
You just went through a paragraph saying how AI was p4p the GOAT but now you're using his size as a reason he doesn't get rebounds? AI couldn't rebound, pass, or DEFEND. If he's 5'8 and can't rebound, that's his own problem. He's out there for a reason. If you're going to applaud the guy for being 5'8, then you have to understand that his height also subjects him to criticism.


I was piggy backing off what your boyfriend said about Iverson, go back and read my quotes and quit going off your bron bron emotions, a midget is supposed to get how many rebounds per game? a guy cant pass but in game 7 of playoffs he gets Jordan rules thrown at him and drops 16 dimes,ok, a guy cant defend but leads the league in steals 3 straight years, it makes me think you don't value shot blockers or assists guys or guys who get it done after being game planned for, who do you like bench warmers?

I criticize Iverson for his height, I said it was his only weakness coming from G'town and even HS, his height hurt him to really showcase his ability, the nba always was a big man league and it will always be regardless of the phase it is in right now, that's why Lebron loved Iverson so much is because he could finish in the paint like he was Lebron height, Iverson use to dunk a lot early in his career, like he was 6'8'', go watch some film for proof

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 02:42 PM
What? You're the one making the claim that he's the p4p goat and that's why he should be ranked higher. In no way does that even correlate with being a better player. Allen Iverson wasn't as good as you think he is. He has a track record of losing and making teams worse. That's a fact. End of story. Bye.

No Lebron is the one who made the statement and I rolled it over here to explain why he shouldn't be ranked in the 30-50 range as you claim he should be, Iverson wasn't as bad as you think, he got drafted by a losing franchise who just won 18 games so having that team in the Finals in 5yrs is pretty amazing as the teams only offensive true threat, he went to Denver and they won 50 games for 8th seed and him and Melo were leading duo in PPG, then he went to Detroit where they had the 4th seed with him starting then when all that Stuckey/bench drama came they went to 8th seed, this was confirmed by RIP Hamilton, these are the real facts, end of story, good morning

you make it seem like Iverson got drafted by a 50 win team and they fell off to 18-20win team, but he did the exact opposite and had that team almost winning 49-56 games all on his back, go look at Philly record and how many points they scored when he sat out, don't cringe either when you look it up

lol, please
12-01-2017, 03:25 PM
:facepalm:

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

europagnpilgrim
12-01-2017, 03:26 PM
What? You're the one making the claim that he's the p4p goat and that's why he should be ranked higher. In no way does that even correlate with being a better player. Allen Iverson wasn't as good as you think he is. He has a track record of losing and making teams worse. That's a fact. End of story. Bye.

https://youtu.be/5FGki9gshb4 - AI HS

https://youtu.be/Cft2Cv5Ojvo - AI NCAA

https://youtu.be/8JvXwHVLPPg - AI NBA

When you are this good from infant(pre nba) phase it just like rollover minutes that carry over on a phone plan, Lebron and Wilt and Alcindor and Magic and Zeke and others were just that good as well coming out of HS/NCAA, go back and watch film of all those players to see proof

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 03:57 PM
Well if you follow basketball you would know that Curry got his shot naturally basically from his father who was a killer shooter from anywhere after halfcourt

naturally is going back to those players HS days and seeing what they could do, like Lebron having his natural freak abilities, sure he put hard work into his body to make sure its on point but he naturally had the gifts to work on, he was a big freak of nature in HS, just like he is in the NBA

Korver been a shooter all his life, naturally is something you bring with you into the nba from my view of it, that's why I use that word, why are you so little on the word ''naturally''?

also I notice how you didn't respond to any of the substance I said but instead focused on the word '''naturally'''

so I think you should STFOH, the S is for stay

I guess you didn't realize you had no point. If lebron Can shoot 42% through hard work, and jo blow shoots 37% naturally, them Lebron is currently the better 3pt shooter period.

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 04:01 PM
I agree. If we are talking about straight up basketball talent. every aspect of offense and defense. Lebron is better then MJ. I understand the old guys hate hearing it. but its just a fact. BTW- Schroder was killing the cavs last night with his speed. until Lebron covered him and shut him down completely. O ya he also shut down Blake few games back. lol. He can cover anyone.

Bron can cover anyone, but I will say, his toughest cover is probably Harden, who he cannot shut down. Like KD too.

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 04:04 PM
You just went through a paragraph saying how AI was p4p the GOAT but now you're using his size as a reason he doesn't get rebounds? AI couldn't rebound, pass, or DEFEND. If he's 5'8 and can't rebound, that's his own problem. He's out there for a reason. If you're going to applaud the guy for being 5'8, then you have to understand that his height also subjects him to criticism.

Couldn't pass? He averaged like 33/8 with guys who couldn't score. Iverson was very much like Westbrook in that he could choose what stats he wanted to explode that day. Puts/asst/stl wise. Iverson was a wizard with the ball. He could absolutely pass his a-- off.

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 04:07 PM
What? You're the one making the claim that he's the p4p goat and that's why he should be ranked higher. In no way does that even correlate with being a better player. Allen Iverson wasn't as good as you think he is. He has a track record of losing and making teams worse. That's a fact. End of story. Bye.

Lololol. I wouldn't waste your time. Your confused because he's making up his own meanings for words now.

FlashBolt
12-01-2017, 04:24 PM
Couldn't pass? He averaged like 33/8 with guys who couldn't score. Iverson was very much like Westbrook in that he could choose what stats he wanted to explode that day. Puts/asst/stl wise. Iverson was a wizard with the ball. He could absolutely pass his a-- off.

Okay, which part of Iverson was great at passing? He averaged 8 assists because he played all the minutes and absorbed all the possessions. When a player has the ball that many times in his hands, he's bound to get stats. That doesn't necessarily make him a good passer. And I'm not sure why you say he's exploding on stats that he wants to. His steals were always high because his team covered so well and that made AI play passing lanes because he was too small to guard his opposing player. When you break his production down on a per36 basis, he's below average compared to other elite players.

tredigs
12-01-2017, 06:55 PM
I know a lot of the posters here don't know MJ beyond highlights or hazy memories of the late 90's + Wizards version of the guy, and for those in that camp (or just anyone who wants to watch the GOAT), I'd recommend watching some of his great old school games. This thread brought me back and I just watched his 69/18/4 + 4 stl game against the Cavs (in Cleveland) in 1990. Mike could get anywhere on the court at all times, was easily the best and most tenacious defender on the floor, and could score at will from deep mid-range. In the modern game they'd have him taking the screens another foot back and his PPG+efficiency would be even more ridiculous. Here's that game if you guys have 20 minutes to kill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpOeDnRHP1U

What LBJ is doing year in and year out even into year 15 at age 32 (granted at 32 Mike still had MVP's ahead of him and was MVP/Finals MVP + the leader of a 72 win team) is alien like and he shows no signs of slowing down in the next few seasons. He has firmly supplanted himself as a top 3 player/career of All Time IMO. But having seen the heights of both I remain firm that Jordan was the scarier player of the two.

Heediot
12-01-2017, 07:00 PM
I know a lot of the posters here don't know MJ beyond highlights or hazy memories of the late 90's + Wizards version of the guy, and for those in that camp (or just anyone who wants to watch the GOAT), I'd recommend watching some of his great old school games. This thread brought me back and I just watched his 69/18/4 + 4 stl game against the Cavs (in Cleveland) in 1990. Mike could get anywhere on the court at all times, was easily the best and most tenacious defender on the floor, and could score at will from deep mid-range. In the modern game they'd have him taking the screens another foot back and his PPG+efficiency would be even more ridiculous. Here's that game if you guys have 20 minutes to kill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpOeDnRHP1U

What LBJ is doing year in and year out even into year 15 at age 32 (granted at 32 Mike still had MVP's ahead of him and was MVP/Finals MVP + the leader of a 72 win team) is alien like and he shows no signs of slowing down in the next few seasons. He has firmly supplanted himself as a top 3 player/career of All Time IMO. But having seen the heights of both I remain firm that Jordan was the scarier player of the two.

I'm curious about the inner 3 point line? Who was that for the HS state championship lmao?

tredigs
12-01-2017, 07:13 PM
I'm curious about the inner 3 point line? Who was that for the HS state championship lmao?

Haha yeah I was wondering myself.

Here's another game (this one in HD). 1993 Finals G4 against the Barkley/KJ/Majerlie 62 win Suns. Barkley won MVP that year and had one of his great games that night with the 30 point triple double. Mike... was better (averaged 41/9/6 on 51% from the field and 40% from three for the series).

Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f4m8UJwP-Y

Jamiecballer
12-01-2017, 07:42 PM
he was a 40pts/10assists/5-10steals type of threat, and how many players are capable of putting up 40 shots in one game which is very hard to do, then add on top of that why would a player need to take that many

you are the type of person to think Mckie and Snow should have combined for 40shots a game and let Iverson take up the scraps and get his 8 shots a game

I am started to feel you guys on here cherish and value 5ppg career scorers more over top 10 career scorers, that is comedy at its finestIverson had a fairly low number of career double doubles. He averaged 6+ assists for his career. Paltry. Plus, Iverson may be the best pound for pound player but dont confuse that for an effective NBA player because the two logically do not have to correlate

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lol, please
12-01-2017, 08:23 PM
Bron can cover anyone, but I will say, his toughest cover is probably Harden, who he cannot shut down. Like KD too.Splash bros both can score on LeBron at will. So can Durant.

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flea
12-01-2017, 09:51 PM
Haha yeah I was wondering myself.

Here's another game (this one in HD). 1993 Finals G4 against the Barkley/KJ/Majerlie 62 win Suns. Barkley won MVP that year and had one of his great games that night with the 30 point triple double. Mike... was better (averaged 41/9/6 on 51% from the field and 40% from three for the series).

Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f4m8UJwP-Y

I love this game, haven't seen it in a few years and I'll probably watch it later tonight. Earlier if the Pac 10 championship gets over with soon.

kdspurman
12-01-2017, 09:58 PM
I know a lot of the posters here don't know MJ beyond highlights or hazy memories of the late 90's + Wizards version of the guy, and for those in that camp (or just anyone who wants to watch the GOAT), I'd recommend watching some of his great old school games. This thread brought me back and I just watched his 69/18/4 + 4 stl game against the Cavs (in Cleveland) in 1990. Mike could get anywhere on the court at all times, was easily the best and most tenacious defender on the floor, and could score at will from deep mid-range. In the modern game they'd have him taking the screens another foot back and his PPG+efficiency would be even more ridiculous. Here's that game if you guys have 20 minutes to kill:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpOeDnRHP1U

What LBJ is doing year in and year out even into year 15 at age 32 (granted at 32 Mike still had MVP's ahead of him and was MVP/Finals MVP + the leader of a 72 win team) is alien like and he shows no signs of slowing down in the next few seasons. He has firmly supplanted himself as a top 3 player/career of All Time IMO. But having seen the heights of both I remain firm that Jordan was the scarier player of the two.

Agreed

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 12:57 AM
Man, was good to see that again. so funny how he was hitting that same mid range jumper over and over again. We talk about how money it was and how it was the best ever and we turn it into a legend that is a little overblown. But damn if Mike's J wasn't exactly what the legend says. Brought back how deadly it was. It was the Kareem skyhook of its generation. His mentality is awesome. He seeks that mid range number the way Bron seeks the rim. Was sick to watch that again. No player has replicated that mid range game he has. I mean...Craig f-in Elo lololol. Hignsight tells us that is a laughable defender for Mike.

Also as I know, but great to be reminded, Jordan can make any pass he wants to out there.

Now watch this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4z_pCA_6k


If I knew nothing about either player, my eye test would have Lebron better. But this is as dominant as a player can possibly be, so I do think Lebron is the GOAT after watching back to back Jordan and then this.

ewing
12-02-2017, 01:18 AM
Man, was good to see that again. so funny how he was hitting that same mid range jumper over and over again. We talk about how money it was and how it was the best ever and we turn it into a legend that is a little overblown. But damn if Mike's J wasn't exactly what the legend says. Brought back how deadly it was. It was the Kareem skyhook of its generation. His mentality is awesome. He seeks that mid range number the way Bron seeks the rim. Was sick to watch that again. No player has replicated that mid range game he has. I mean...Craig f-in Elo lololol. Hignsight tells us that is a laughable defender for Mike.

Also as I know, but great to be reminded, Jordan can make any pass he wants to out there.

Jordan was the greatest slasher of all time until the everyone else decided the only way to contain MJ was to start a slug feast and then he put on 20 pounds of muscle and become the best post scorer i've ever seen

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 01:24 AM
Jordan was the greatest slasher of all time until the everyone else decided the only way to contain MJ was to start a slug feast and then he put on 20 pounds of muscle and become the best post scorer i've ever seen

Ive still never seen anyone play at this level ever accept Lebron. And that is why even though he has the worst of the resume's, his best film is still superior to anything Ive seen from Mike.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4z_pCA_6k

ewing
12-02-2017, 01:28 AM
Ive still never seen anyone play at this level ever accept Lebron. And that is why even though he has the worst of the resume's, his best film is still superior to anything Ive seen from Mike.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4z_pCA_6k

definitely his greatest moment. I remember watching that game a screaming for them to double LeBron on the catch. he totally burnt the house down

FlashBolt
12-02-2017, 01:41 AM
Ive still never seen anyone play at this level ever accept Lebron. And that is why even though he has the worst of the resume's, his best film is still superior to anything Ive seen from Mike.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxHJeW4Yc2o&t=66s

This will forever be LeBron's greatest game. If he had lost that Pistons series, it actually would have been better legacy-wise considering people use that Finals against him. But this Celtics series was after that Mavs Finals meltdown and it was LeBron's first ring the same season. We would have been talking about KD winning his FIRST ring before LeBron. Legacies would have totally been different.

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 02:11 AM
Lets look at athletic Mike though...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEaMH-cVDf8

Heediot
12-02-2017, 06:46 AM
Man, was good to see that again. so funny how he was hitting that same mid range jumper over and over again. We talk about how money it was and how it was the best ever and we turn it into a legend that is a little overblown. But damn if Mike's J wasn't exactly what the legend says. Brought back how deadly it was. It was the Kareem skyhook of its generation. His mentality is awesome. He seeks that mid range number the way Bron seeks the rim. Was sick to watch that again. No player has replicated that mid range game he has. I mean...Craig f-in Elo lololol. Hignsight tells us that is a laughable defender for Mike.

Also as I know, but great to be reminded, Jordan can make any pass he wants to out there.

Now watch this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4z_pCA_6k


If I knew nothing about either player, my eye test would have Lebron better. But this is as dominant as a player can possibly be, so I do think Lebron is the GOAT after watching back to back Jordan and then this.

I don't know. Jordan made things look easy and created easier looks for himself. LeBron just made more difficult plays in the two posted highlights. he won't be as consistent as mj with those fade aways in the boston highlights as Jordan was well known for in his 30s. Jordan makes the difficult look effortless whereas Bron you can see he just out powers and out athletics the guy defending him. it's pick and choose between pure scoring skill versus lebron north south game thrown in with some post ups here and there.

prodigy
12-02-2017, 09:55 AM
Bron can cover anyone, but I will say, his toughest cover is probably Harden, who he cannot shut down. Like KD too.

I seen lebron play great Defense on Durant. Problem is Lebron has to switch onto Curry when he got hot. Bron still human he gets tired. That teams loaded if you didn't know lol. Lebron can't shut Harden down, but long as other cavs players can score and we don't need 45pts from Lebron i trust him to hold harden within means.

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 01:13 PM
I seen lebron play great Defense on Durant. Problem is Lebron has to switch onto Curry when he got hot. Bron still human he gets tired. That teams loaded if you didn't know lol. Lebron can't shut Harden down, but long as other cavs players can score and we don't need 45pts from Lebron i trust him to hold harden within means.

100% agree

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 01:15 PM
I don't know. Jordan made things look easy and created easier looks for himself. LeBron just made more difficult plays in the two posted highlights. he won't be as consistent as mj with those fade aways in the boston highlights as Jordan was well known for in his 30s. Jordan makes the difficult look effortless whereas Bron you can see he just out powers and out athletics the guy defending him. it's pick and choose between pure scoring skill versus lebron north south game thrown in with some post ups here and there.

Put Craig Elo on Bron and see how EASY ish looks for him.

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 01:46 PM
And currently, Lebron is scoring as effortlessly as Mike, that's why for me, they are equals on the court at worst

Bartlee23
12-02-2017, 02:01 PM
Put Craig Elo on Bron and see how EASY ish looks for him.

Can you please list the " world class " defenders Lebron has gone up against in his career? Most players in today's NBA don't even play defense. At least "EHLO" though not athletically gifted made an attempt to actually play defense. Kind of ironic with the name yet you're quite clueless...lol.

Heediot
12-02-2017, 02:05 PM
Put Craig Elo on Bron and see how EASY ish looks for him. Just in General, when you watch Jordan play no one was a graceful as he was. Didn't matter who was guarding him, his hang time and agility is ridiculous.


And currently, Lebron is scoring as effortlessly as Mike, that's why for me, they are equals on the court at worst

I can't argue with the numbers. LeBron will always be a step below Jordan when it comes to putting fear in his opponents and having that killer instinct. In the 4th quarter of a game, no one is as feared as Jordan in nba history.

eDush
12-02-2017, 02:08 PM
Put Craig Elo on Bron and see how EASY ish looks for him.

Can you please list the " world class " defenders Lebron has gone up against in his career? Most players in today's NBA don't even play defense. At least "EHLO" though not athletically gifted made an attempt to actually play defense. Kind of ironic with the name yet you're quite clueless...lol.
Kawhi and he does a good job on containing him cause no one can stop the King!
:no:

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 02:10 PM
Can you please list the " world class " defenders Lebron has gone up against in his career? Most players in today's NBA don't even play defense. At least "EHLO" though not athletically gifted made an attempt to actually play defense. Kind of ironic with the name yet you're quite clueless...lol.

Your joking

He eats Draymonds lunch whenever Dray tries to guard him and Dray is considered top 3 d players in the NBA and is worlds above craig f-in Elo. Next time you come on here with a stupid comment actively trying to embarrass yourself, don't make it quite so obvious.

Bartlee23
12-02-2017, 02:34 PM
Your joking

He eats Draymonds lunch whenever Dray tries to guard him and Dray is considered top 3 d players in the NBA and is worlds above craig f-in Elo. Next time you come on here with a stupid comment actively trying to embarrass yourself, don't make it quite so obvious.

First... learn how to spell the guy's name is EHLO. The only one who should be " embarrassed " is you since you really don't have a clue what you're talking about and I seriously doubt you were even old enough to have seen them play. The level of defenders Lebron has gone against in his career is really no better than what Jordan faced and IMO is worse. Get a clue and nice try at the failed attempt to somehow try and degrade me when your point holds no water and you can't even spell...lol.

FlashBolt
12-02-2017, 03:16 PM
First... learn how to spell the guy's name is EHLO. The only one who should be " embarrassed " is you since you really don't have a clue what you're talking about and I seriously doubt you were even old enough to have seen them play. The level of defenders Lebron has gone against in his career is really no better than what Jordan faced and IMO is worse. Get a clue and nice try at the failed attempt to somehow try and degrade me when your point holds no water and you can't even spell...lol.

LeBron has gone up against better defenders. Just compare the perimeter defenders today and guys he has to guard compared to what Jordan had to defend/play against. The best perimeter defenders were both on his team.. And GP had some success guarding Jordan.

Heediot
12-02-2017, 03:38 PM
LeBron has gone up against better defenders. Just compare the perimeter defenders today and guys he has to guard compared to what Jordan had to defend/play against. The best perimeter defenders were both on his team.. And GP had some success guarding Jordan.

pistons Rodman. alvin Robertson. Joe dumars. Michael Cooper. glove.

LeBron deat with metta kahwi toNY Allen.

both eras had their guys 90s had better defense overall in both the post and the perimeter you were forced to be a good one on one defender back. today team defending is just as important at times because of zones and mixed zones. switches etc..

I think defensive specialists played more minutes back then too because u could hide them more on offense.

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 04:05 PM
First... learn how to spell the guy's name is EHLO. The only one who should be " embarrassed " is you since you really don't have a clue what you're talking about and I seriously doubt you were even old enough to have seen them play. The level of defenders Lebron has gone against in his career is really no better than what Jordan faced and IMO is worse. Get a clue and nice try at the failed attempt to somehow try and degrade me when your point holds no water and you can't even spell...lol.

So you reply with spelling aka "you got nothing" aka stfu -----

Bartlee23
12-02-2017, 04:14 PM
So you reply with spelling aka "you got nothing" aka stfu -----

Ditto... by that response I put you at 18... 19 years old? I'll quit responding now since you're obviously the smarter one...lol. Good comeback.

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 06:23 PM
Ditto... by that response I put you at 18... 19 years old? I'll quit responding now since you're obviously the smarter one...lol. Good comeback.

Wasn't a comeback, I'd shut up to if I were you.

ewing
12-02-2017, 07:41 PM
Tough guy


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IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 09:27 PM
Kid said name a defender. Two were named that are possibly better one on one defenders than anyone Jordan has faced. (For me Kawaii > Rodman as a one on one defender of wings). Then he had nothing to say so made it into a spelling B. I ain't got time for that b---- ----. I go back and forth all day with people about b ball facts. Once I see you are all about that b---- ----, I lose all respect for you as a poster and have no choice to treat you as such. I made the thread so it's a subject I actual put some thought into so I probably reacted more harsh than I would regularly once I saw the troll.

Jeffy25
12-02-2017, 09:36 PM
This is cute

FlashBolt
12-02-2017, 11:20 PM
Kid said name a defender. Two were named that are possibly better one on one defenders than anyone Jordan has faced. (For me Kawaii > Rodman as a one on one defender of wings). Then he had nothing to say so made it into a spelling B. I ain't got time for that b---- ----. I go back and forth all day with people about b ball facts. Once I see you are all about that b---- ----, I lose all respect for you as a poster and have no choice to treat you as such. I made the thread so it's a subject I actual put some thought into so I probably reacted more harsh than I would regularly once I saw the troll.

No one takes into consideration the expansive list of more talented wing players in today's NBA than before.

Curry
KD
Harden
Russell
Lillard
Irving
LeBron
PG
Melo
Butler

Those are just the few. There are much more. Being a perimeter defender today is VERY hard. You're going to be guarding an elite perimeter player EVERY game.

Heediot
12-03-2017, 06:34 AM
No one takes into consideration the expansive list of more talented wing players in today's NBA than before.

Curry
KD
Harden
Russell
Lillard
Irving
LeBron
PG
Melo
Butler

Those are just the few. There are much more. Being a perimeter defender today is VERY hard. You're going to be guarding an elite perimeter player EVERY game.

You also have to consider the advantage that the offensive wing has in this day and age. On the pick and roll, once the ball handler turns the corner, dude cannot be touched, so it makes it much easier for him beat his man and get a cleaner shot at the rim. It's why the league has turned into a pick and roll dominated league. Back then you could leverage your and push him into another defender as help. It's also why you see wings get exposed in the playoffs with bigger dips in shooting % in today's game when refs allow for more contact in the playoffs. It took more natural skill to be a dominant or all-star caliber wing player back then. Now all you need is the ability to turn the corner on the pick and role which is helped by non contact rules before and after a high screen is set. I don't thin Rose and RW win MVP's with their style of play back in then. Giannis and Simmons, even Wall would need to work harder on their jumpers to be as effective. Big men could camp defensively in the paint all game defensively, and stretch bigs were a lot less so the lanes were clogged back then as well. Spacing wasn't as big back then as it is now too, that's why a mid-grange game was critical back then for wings and ball handlers. Getting off three's is much easier now off a screen too as contact after a high screen is set is an easy foul call for refs. I think overall, the wings are more talented but the numbers are skewed by certain rules. Gives guys like Clyde, Mitch Richmond, Reggie, Penny, Grant Hill before injuries, and they're numbers would inflate and perceptions about them would change. A fringe All-star like Steve Smith back then would feast on these rules IMO. Mark Price and John Stockton would kill the PNR in this era. KJ and the original IT would be bigger threats with their ability to turn the corner on a screen as well.

Edit: On the flip side, I think the perception of the perimeter defenders in James' era would change as well if they were giving more reigns to hand check and be more physical. Guys like Metta and Artest with their natural strength and combined with their feet would be menaces back then. Kawhi with hand checking? Damn.
Tony Allen, the dirty Bruce Bowen, Beverly, etc... Perimeter defenders now would look better in the MJ era just as perimeter wings back then would look better offensively in this LBJ era.

ewing
12-03-2017, 07:29 AM
I saw the nba finals last year and that was a defensive clinic. No way MJ puts up the same kind of numbers with that type of resistance.


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Heediot
12-03-2017, 07:56 AM
I saw the nba finals last year and that was a defensive clinic. No way MJ puts up the same kind of numbers with that type of resistance.


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The playoffs as a whole last year from I what I remember just by watching was more high scoring vs. other playoffs in recent memory. 110 points scored was very common last year gotta re-check, might be selective memory.

ewing
12-03-2017, 07:58 AM
The playoffs as a whole last year from I what I remember just by watching was more high scoring vs. other playoffs in recent memory. 110 points scored was very common last year gotta re-check, might be selective memory.

your post (#175) is reasonable. I was just making a joke for those with a clear agenda.

prodigy
12-03-2017, 09:53 AM
Its laughable to watch people still make a case for MJ. I have nothing but respect for MJ as a player but when people gotta say MJ puts fear into peoples eyes more then Lebron, lol thats trying to hard at this point.

Lebrons bigger, stronger, faster, better driver, finisher and 3pt shooter. Better all round defender in the fact he can cover 1-4 and most centers, Brons better Rebounder and passer, shot blocker, was much more valuable when we look at what Lebrons teams did once he left compared to what Bulls did when MJ left, etc...

MJ scored 3 more points a game on almost 4 more shots a game lol. MJ is a better FT shooter and got more steals.

ewing
12-03-2017, 09:58 AM
The same people who say you canít just compare Wiltís stats to todayís nba do just that when its Bron to MJ.


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Bartlee23
12-03-2017, 10:04 AM
Kid said name a defender. Two were named that are possibly better one on one defenders than anyone Jordan has faced. (For me Kawaii > Rodman as a one on one defender of wings). Then he had nothing to say so made it into a spelling B. I ain't got time for that b---- ----. I go back and forth all day with people about b ball facts. Once I see you are all about that b---- ----, I lose all respect for you as a poster and have no choice to treat you as such. I made the thread so it's a subject I actual put some thought into so I probably reacted more harsh than I would regularly once I saw the troll.

You've already shown your lack of intelligence and your immaturity and now you go to threatening a person if they post? First let's make this clear.... you're a nobody on a website that can really give no more than a opinion but you act like some tough guy, know it all since you hide behind your computer.

I asked you " name the world class defenders Lebron has faced in his career?" You brought up Green who doesn't match up to him regularly and someone else brought up Kahwi... you didn't. Ok that's two guys and I could name multiple guys that Jordan faced....not only that Jordan's era actually had centers/big men who actually played defense. Today's game few play defense and scoring is up because of it.

The reason I brought up the spelling is because it's quite obvious either you aren't old enough to have seen them play or you're just not that bright. Ehlo is not a hard name to spell and you spelled it wrong multiple times. You failed at answering my question, you couldn't spell a simple name and had to lead to name calling and threatening which makes you look foolish and immature.

Thanks for the laugh though. nothing like a troll who tries (and fails)to degrade a person after asking a legit question. Keep hiding behind your computer... it looks like it's about the only life you have.

Heediot
12-03-2017, 10:20 AM
Its laughable to watch people still make a case for MJ. I have nothing but respect for MJ as a player but when people gotta say MJ puts fear into peoples eyes more then Lebron, lol thats trying to hard at this point.

Lebrons bigger, stronger, faster, better driver, finisher and 3pt shooter. Better all round defender in the fact he can cover 1-4 and most centers, Brons better Rebounder and passer, shot blocker, was much more valuable when we look at what Lebrons teams did once he left compared to what Bulls did when MJ left, etc...

MJ scored 3 more points a game on almost 4 more shots a game lol. MJ is a better FT shooter and got more steals.

There's nothing laughable about who performs better when the stakes are the highest. The mental side of sports where focus, how big the moment is, and killer instinct matter. Kershaw can be argued to be the better pitcher vs. Madison B., but who would you rather face in the playoffs? Peyton could be argued to be the better pure passer vs. Brady, but who would you rather face when all the marbles are up for grabs.?

Bigger, faster, stronger isn't everything. How many guys are bigger faster stronger then Curry in the league. Many guys were more athletic than Duncan. Admiral would kill Hakeem at the combine. Magic and Bird weren't the most god given athletes. Basketball is just as much about skill/feel/iq as it is who has the best combine numbers. Both guys are world class athletes anyway and the separation between their ability to outclass everyone else in terms of athleticism makes your point pretty mute there. Any time Jordan or LeBron step on the court they are and were the best athlete on the court, so this argument doesn't hold much weight when you consider it from how I see it. Yeah Bron is the better rebounder and passer i'll give you that. Defense is up for debate. Jordan was far more focused and consistent, Bron flashes brilliance through out his career but he also coasts. Jordan went harder on both ends through his career. Both guys are elite IQ guys who know how to make the right plays and reads. Jordan is the better pure scorer in my opinion, if he put in as much work on the 3 ball as Bron has lately I'd wager he'd be just as good of a 3 point shooter as James is right now (at worse). Young Jordan was as good a slasher as anyone in history so It's debatable as who is the better driver. Jordan wants the ball and lives for the big moment/big shot more in my opinion.

The thing about the Phil's Bulls, current Warriors and Spurs, even Celtics to a small extent is they have top end coaches and systems that put their players in the best position to succeed, these teams aren't totally reliant on one guy. Every team Bron has been on, the system revolves around him. You take him out the team mates have a harder time to adjust. I give him a tonne of credit for leading a weak cast his first time around in Cleveland. Superstars and HOF level players will elevate an established and well oiled system. Like Curry in Gs, MJ in Chi, TD or KL in the Spurs.

Another thing, who's game translates better to which era? Jordan's era was more ISO based. LeBron's era is more PNR based. I'd take Jordan's being able to play off a screen and playing offense untouched in this era, vs. LeBron trying to break down defenders and hitting a mid-range J and having to play through more perimeter contact and hard hacks in the lane.

FlashBolt
12-03-2017, 11:22 AM
There's nothing laughable about who performs better when the stakes are the highest. The mental side of sports where focus, how big the moment is, and killer instinct matter. Kershaw can be argued to be the better pitcher vs. Madison B., but who would you rather face in the playoffs? Peyton could be argued to be the better pure passer vs. Brady, but who would you rather face when all the marbles are up for grabs.?

Bigger, faster, stronger isn't everything. How many guys are bigger faster stronger then Curry in the league. Many guys were more athletic than Duncan. Admiral would kill Hakeem at the combine. Magic and Bird weren't the most god given athletes. Basketball is just as much about skill/feel/iq as it is who has the best combine numbers. Both guys are world class athletes anyway and the separation between their ability to outclass everyone else in terms of athleticism makes your point pretty mute there. Any time Jordan or LeBron step on the court they are and were the best athlete on the court, so this argument doesn't hold much weight when you consider it from how I see it. Yeah Bron is the better rebounder and passer i'll give you that. Defense is up for debate. Jordan was far more focused and consistent, Bron flashes brilliance through out his career but he also coasts. Jordan went harder on both ends through his career. Both guys are elite IQ guys who know how to make the right plays and reads. Jordan is the better pure scorer in my opinion, if he put in as much work on the 3 ball as Bron has lately I'd wager he'd be just as good of a 3 point shooter as James is right now (at worse). Young Jordan was as good a slasher as anyone in history so It's debatable as who is the better driver. Jordan wants the ball and lives for the big moment/big shot more in my opinion.

The thing about the Phil's Bulls, current Warriors and Spurs, even Celtics to a small extent is they have top end coaches and systems that put their players in the best position to succeed, these teams aren't totally reliant on one guy. Every team Bron has been on, the system revolves around him. You take him out the team mates have a harder time to adjust. I give him a tonne of credit for leading a weak cast his first time around in Cleveland. Superstars and HOF level players will elevate an established and well oiled system. Like Curry in Gs, MJ in Chi, TD or KL in the Spurs.

Another thing, who's game translates better to which era? Jordan's era was more ISO based. LeBron's era is more PNR based. I'd take Jordan's being able to play off a screen and playing offense untouched in this era, vs. LeBron trying to break down defenders and hitting a mid-range J and having to play through more perimeter contact and hard hacks in the lane.

If this is about who could score 1-on-1 against anyone, then your answer is KD is the GOAT. KD is better than LeBron by your logic. So is Kobe. You're arguing two different aspects of the game. And your argument that LeBron doesn't want the ball has been incorrect since 2011. There hasn't been many errors in LeBron's game. You can say he passed up a shot but by your logic, again, Russell Westbrook is better than LeBron. The game has changed. People hate ME-ME-ME players because statistics are pummeling and influencing people's view on a player. LeBron is special because he can either score on you or pass to a better shot. That's where his greatest strength is. If you're arguing better scorer in terms of difficulty in shots, LeBron won't even be in my top ten. But that's a totally different argument that really comes down to preference of the game. LeBron has to break down defenders because he's trying to draw doubles and then pass it down to shooters.. Common sense, buddy. Again, that's HIS game. You might not like it but if you want to watch a high USG% ballhogger type game, you're not going to like many PG's.

Heediot
12-03-2017, 11:45 AM
If this is about who could score 1-on-1 against anyone, then your answer is KD is the GOAT. KD is better than LeBron by your logic. So is Kobe. You're arguing two different aspects of the game. And your argument that LeBron doesn't want the ball has been incorrect since 2011. There hasn't been many errors in LeBron's game. You can say he passed up a shot but by your logic, again, Russell Westbrook is better than LeBron. The game has changed. People hate ME-ME-ME players because statistics are pummeling and influencing people's view on a player. LeBron is special because he can either score on you or pass to a better shot. That's where his greatest strength is. If you're arguing better scorer in terms of difficulty in shots, LeBron won't even be in my top ten. But that's a totally different argument that really comes down to preference of the game. LeBron has to break down defenders because he's trying to draw doubles and then pass it down to shooters.. Common sense, buddy. Again, that's HIS game. You might not like it but if you want to watch a high USG% ballhogger type game, you're not going to like many PG's.

The more significant point is who adapts better to which era. Both guys will still be goat level players in whatever era, that's not something I'm going to dispute because both guys have world class work ethics, and world class basketball iq's, which translates to any era. I think Jordan has an easier transition and can flourish more in this era vs. James. Yeah Jordan loses some effectiveness as doubles/triples come faster because of zone rules. Giving the ball in Jordan's hands on offense untouched and off the edge of a screen, he'll figure it out and it'd be unfair. I think he'd be more of a play-maker in this era too. If guys like Kawhi and Derozan who both came into this league flawed figured things out (relatively in DD's case), I'm sure Jordan would too. For Bron, even guys who were all around players like Penny and Hill (before injuries) and Steve Smith that could handle the ball like a PG had to set defenses up with a respectable Jumper. Bron probably works on that earlier in his career as he didn't have to do that during his current era given how the game is called. I might be under-selling Bron. I just think Jordan's game translates better considering era's. Jordan probably works on his 3 ball earlier in his career and Bron work's on his mid-range and iso skills earlier when switching era's.

I do agree LeBron has gotten better with his grit and mental toughness in the playoffs. For a guy like Jordan I think he was a born killer. James developed it through experience and adversity. Jordan was wired that way.

As for KD, I think his effectiveness takes hit if he played in a more physical era. But like I said my argument has more to do with LBJ vs. MJ in terms of era switch. I'm not saying I'm right, and I will admit a big bias to MJ could be clouding my speculation. But it's all theories for debate and painting a picture for the other side to see.

prodigy
12-03-2017, 12:38 PM
There's nothing laughable about who performs better when the stakes are the highest. The mental side of sports where focus, how big the moment is, and killer instinct matter. Kershaw can be argued to be the better pitcher vs. Madison B., but who would you rather face in the playoffs? Peyton could be argued to be the better pure passer vs. Brady, but who would you rather face when all the marbles are up for grabs.?

Bigger, faster, stronger isn't everything. How many guys are bigger faster stronger then Curry in the league. Many guys were more athletic than Duncan. Admiral would kill Hakeem at the combine. Magic and Bird weren't the most god given athletes. Basketball is just as much about skill/feel/iq as it is who has the best combine numbers. Both guys are world class athletes anyway and the separation between their ability to outclass everyone else in terms of athleticism makes your point pretty mute there. Any time Jordan or LeBron step on the court they are and were the best athlete on the court, so this argument doesn't hold much weight when you consider it from how I see it. Yeah Bron is the better rebounder and passer i'll give you that. Defense is up for debate. Jordan was far more focused and consistent, Bron flashes brilliance through out his career but he also coasts. Jordan went harder on both ends through his career. Both guys are elite IQ guys who know how to make the right plays and reads. Jordan is the better pure scorer in my opinion, if he put in as much work on the 3 ball as Bron has lately I'd wager he'd be just as good of a 3 point shooter as James is right now (at worse). Young Jordan was as good a slasher as anyone in history so It's debatable as who is the better driver. Jordan wants the ball and lives for the big moment/big shot more in my opinion.

The thing about the Phil's Bulls, current Warriors and Spurs, even Celtics to a small extent is they have top end coaches and systems that put their players in the best position to succeed, these teams aren't totally reliant on one guy. Every team Bron has been on, the system revolves around him. You take him out the team mates have a harder time to adjust. I give him a tonne of credit for leading a weak cast his first time around in Cleveland. Superstars and HOF level players will elevate an established and well oiled system. Like Curry in Gs, MJ in Chi, TD or KL in the Spurs.

Another thing, who's game translates better to which era? Jordan's era was more ISO based. LeBron's era is more PNR based. I'd take Jordan's being able to play off a screen and playing offense untouched in this era, vs. LeBron trying to break down defenders and hitting a mid-range J and having to play through more perimeter contact and hard hacks in the lane.

ok

lol, please
12-03-2017, 01:20 PM
Man, was good to see that again. so funny how he was hitting that same mid range jumper over and over again. We talk about how money it was and how it was the best ever and we turn it into a legend that is a little overblown. But damn if Mike's J wasn't exactly what the legend says. Brought back how deadly it was. It was the Kareem skyhook of its generation. His mentality is awesome. He seeks that mid range number the way Bron seeks the rim. Was sick to watch that again. No player has replicated that mid range game he has. I mean...Craig f-in Elo lololol. Hignsight tells us that is a laughable defender for Mike.

Also as I know, but great to be reminded, Jordan can make any pass he wants to out there.

Now watch this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4z_pCA_6k


If I knew nothing about either player, my eye test would have Lebron better. But this is as dominant as a player can possibly be, so I do think Lebron is the GOAT after watching back to back Jordan and then this.Your posts are absolkutrly comical when it comes to your love fest for lebron. :laugh2:

At least this time you blatantly said what you have been trying to convince other people of this whole thread - you actually think LeBron is better than Jordan.



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lol, please
12-03-2017, 01:26 PM
your post (#175) is reasonable. I was just making a joke for those with a clear agenda.Well said.

The agendas in here are obvious.

Heediot is destroying posters with facts.

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Vee-Rex
12-03-2017, 03:24 PM
I've been a staunch Jordan defender for the longest time. Jordan obviously had the better overall career, but when it comes to measuring talent... man, it's so close that I'm cool with an argument either way.

I will say this though: what LeBron is doing right now and in the past few years really makes me lean a bit to his side. He's just more of a complete player, given the ability to rebound and his insane passing ability and his improved 3-point shooting. Jordan was a talented passer but LeBron's passing is truly on a different level than his. LeBron's like a machine that can do any and everything needed on the court.

I mean think about it. Every single aspect of the game (including defense when he locks in). Scoring, rebounding, passing, defending, blocking, steals, post game, 3-point shooting, mid-range, slashing, clutch shooting, clutch defense, insane BBIQ, all at elite levels. He's literally a robot/machine. I mean come on... do you guys actually see what this dude has been doing? We're so numb to everything he's doing these days.

And I'm not forgetting Jordan's incredible *** either. I watched plenty of him and he was at that unrivaled level. I just don't know, man... it's more of a discussion than people seem to be willing to admit. Either side has good points and I think Jordan may have been the scarier scorer, but I'm really tipping my hat towards LeBron being the GOAT if the criteria is based on talent and doesn't include career accolades and accomplishments.

IKnowHoops
12-03-2017, 04:59 PM
You've already shown your lack of intelligence and your immaturity and now you go to threatening a person if they post? First let's make this clear.... you're a nobody on a website that can really give no more than a opinion but you act like some tough guy, know it all since you hide behind your computer.

I asked you " name the world class defenders Lebron has faced in his career?" You brought up Green who doesn't match up to him regularly and someone else brought up Kahwi... you didn't. Ok that's two guys and I could name multiple guys that Jordan faced....not only that Jordan's era actually had centers/big men who actually played defense. Today's game few play defense and scoring is up because of it.

The reason I brought up the spelling is because it's quite obvious either you aren't old enough to have seen them play or you're just not that bright. Ehlo is not a hard name to spell and you spelled it wrong multiple times. You failed at answering my question, you couldn't spell a simple name and had to lead to name calling and threatening which makes you look foolish and immature.

Thanks for the laugh though. nothing like a troll who tries (and fails)to degrade a person after asking a legit question. Keep hiding behind your computer... it looks like it's about the only life you have.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... you made clear you are a -----. Good luck at the spelling B championship next year. I think there is a thread for that in the alphabet forum. Go check it. I think it will really peak ur interest. You've shown to be far more knowledgeable on that subject. You will absolutely kill it in there bruh. Go! Quick!

ODB13
12-03-2017, 05:27 PM
There would be something of a conversation on this had Bron not GIVEN UP on his team in the 2011 Finals.

That is a stain so gigantic as to be insurmountable.

His career will never equal that of Jordan's. It's just not going to happen at this point.

Top 3 all-time, however, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Bartlee23
12-03-2017, 05:53 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... you made clear you are a -----. Good luck at the spelling B championship next year. I think there is a thread for that in the alphabet forum. Go check it. I think it will really peak ur interest. You've shown to be far more knowledgeable on that subject. You will absolutely kill it in there bruh. Go! Quick!

Typical troll...lol. Again fails to answer a legitimate question. Thanks again for the laugh. Please change your screen name as you've made it quite clear you're uneducated, immature and don't know shitz.

FlashBolt
12-03-2017, 06:45 PM
I get the 2011 argument but it shouldn't define a player. It was one bad series from an entire career of great series. It's just that it is very close between MJ and LeBron that these "little things" have to be considered. I mean, if not for 2011, where do you rank LeBron? Let's assume he has an amazing Finals series but still lose. Would that have really changed much?

ewing
12-03-2017, 06:52 PM
I get the 2011 argument but it shouldn't define a player. It was one bad series from an entire career of great series. It's just that it is very close between MJ and LeBron that these "little things" have to be considered. I mean, if not for 2011, where do you rank LeBron? Let's assume he has an amazing Finals series but still lose. Would that have really changed much?

I think Hawk said it best once when he talked about tiers of players. LeBron is making his own tier now itís just that there is another guy that has his own tier above him (I donít count guys before magic and bird bc I canít relate to their NBA)


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LA_Raiders
12-03-2017, 07:10 PM
Lol, LeBron can only win with other two Top 15 players on his side.

carter80
12-03-2017, 08:18 PM
yes, LeBron James is as good as Michael Jordan. However, his career is not. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. LeBron ran into much tougher finals opponents, and his 2011 choke job against the Mavs will haunt him forever.

But yes, as far as GOAT goes, the only reason basketball doesn't have a strong debate, is because Jordan's playoff/finals results are just too hard to catch, on top of him being individually a top 3 talent to ever play.Your posts are always spot on, but this might be your best one. You are the jordan of PSD.

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FlashBolt
12-03-2017, 09:27 PM
Is it possible Lebron not only ends up as the NBA all time scorer but also #3 in total NBA assists?

JordansBulls
12-03-2017, 11:44 PM
We need to compare them by how many bronze medals they led America to and the total amount of times they lost with HCA. That gives the true indication and what really separates them. Without that they are virtually similar.

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 02:52 AM
The more significant point is who adapts better to which era. Both guys will still be goat level players in whatever era, that's not something I'm going to dispute because both guys have world class work ethics, and world class basketball iq's, which translates to any era. I think Jordan has an easier transition and can flourish more in this era vs. James. Yeah Jordan loses some effectiveness as doubles/triples come faster because of zone rules. Giving the ball in Jordan's hands on offense untouched and off the edge of a screen, he'll figure it out and it'd be unfair. I think he'd be more of a play-maker in this era too. If guys like Kawhi and Derozan who both came into this league flawed figured things out (relatively in DD's case), I'm sure Jordan would too. For Bron, even guys who were all around players like Penny and Hill (before injuries) and Steve Smith that could handle the ball like a PG had to set defenses up with a respectable Jumper. Bron probably works on that earlier in his career as he didn't have to do that during his current era given how the game is called. I might be under-selling Bron. I just think Jordan's game translates better considering era's. Jordan probably works on his 3 ball earlier in his career and Bron work's on his mid-range and iso skills earlier when switching era's.

I do agree LeBron has gotten better with his grit and mental toughness in the playoffs. For a guy like Jordan I think he was a born killer. James developed it through experience and adversity. Jordan was wired that way.

As for KD, I think his effectiveness takes hit if he played in a more physical era. But like I said my argument has more to do with LBJ vs. MJ in terms of era switch. I'm not saying I'm right, and I will admit a big bias to MJ could be clouding my speculation. But it's all theories for debate and painting a picture for the other side to see.

Common. He used to routinely get dominated by his older brother, and got cut from the varsity. If he was born with it, it didn't do him much good in those two instances.

More likely that the defeats and beatings made him a better player and eventually he was a killer. Just like Lebron is currently. Lets not split hairs judging who/what/when/why/how a guy becomes a killer.

My unbiased opinion is that Jordan and Lebron are equals on the court. My biased opinion is that Lebron is the better player. I am a Lebron fan, but when I say my unbiased opinion, its because I no longer see a weakness in Lebron's game. Same with Mike, he didn't have a weakness either at his position. 2 guys with zero weaknesses, now the unbiased part of me says, ok, now its up in the air, before only Mike seemed to be weakness free. But now so is Lebron.

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 02:59 AM
Your posts are absolkutrly comical when it comes to your love fest for lebron. :laugh2:

At least this time you blatantly said what you have been trying to convince other people of this whole thread - you actually think LeBron is better than Jordan.



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I didn't talk about how wet Bron is so you couldn't comprehend what was typed.

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 03:04 AM
Typical troll...lol. Again fails to answer a legitimate question. Thanks again for the laugh. Please change your screen name as you've made it quite clear you're uneducated, immature and don't know shitz.

What question brat?

You said name a player

I said draymond

Then you reply with spell Eilloes name right.

At that point you proved you didn't want an answer, you wanted to cry like a -----.

So now you dont get to anything from me accept a toilet flush down your throat unless you prove to be more than a winey infant locked away in his crib for having an annoyingly pointless existence.

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 03:10 AM
Your posts are always spot on, but this might be your best one. You are the jordan of PSD.

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I think he mentioned he's taken

Bartlee23
12-04-2017, 09:44 AM
What question brat?

You said name a player

I said draymond

Then you reply with spell Eilloes name right.

At that point you proved you didn't want an answer, you wanted to cry like a -----.

So now you dont get to anything from me accept a toilet flush down your throat unless you prove to be more than a winey infant locked away in his crib for having an annoyingly pointless existence.

Ok..... so now you can't read or spell..... you must be educated !! I don't know why I even waste my time ( and this will be the last ) since you've already proven your new name IDON'TKNOWHOOPS and I'll refer you by that. I asked a simple question " name the world class defenders ( stay with me genius defenders is plural meaning more than one name ) that Lebron faced ?" You failed to that, you can't spell, so what that tells me is you're probably not too bright and by your responses very young and immature.

I'm not your " brat " you're responses are hilarious thought... I'm laughing every time I read them because you've proven to be nothing more than a clueless troll who hides behind his computer and can't even form a sentence/response that has any value. I guess the question was just too hard for you...... troll on...

ewing
12-04-2017, 09:48 AM
IKNOWHOOPS is getting owned

WaDe03
12-04-2017, 12:04 PM
Y'all should meet up and fight!

LaVar Ball
12-04-2017, 12:28 PM
We need to compare them by how many bronze medals they led America to and the total amount of times they lost with HCA. That gives the true indication and what really separates them. Without that they are virtually similar.

Also a true indication is how they impacted the different teams/franchises they played for.

Like Bron made Cleveland-Miami-Cleveland dominant while MJ failed miserably to even sniff the playoffs in his 2 years in Washington.

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 12:40 PM
Ok..... so now you can't read or spell..... you must be educated !! I don't know why I even waste my time ( and this will be the last ) since you've already proven your new name IDON'TKNOWHOOPS and I'll refer you by that. I asked a simple question " name the world class defenders ( stay with me genius defenders is plural meaning more than one name ) that Lebron faced ?" You failed to that, you can't spell, so what that tells me is you're probably not too bright and by your responses very young and immature.

I'm not your " brat " you're responses are hilarious thought... I'm laughing every time I read them because you've proven to be nothing more than a clueless troll who hides behind his computer and can't even form a sentence/response that has any value. I guess the question was just too hard for you...... troll on...

Well then stay attached to Craig eelloes utter then. Since Draymond and Loenard arenít world class defenders and Eeelo is in your eyes, just stay right where u are attached to that utter and just keep drinking player.

Then go win that spelling B!

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 12:41 PM
Ok..... so now you can't read or spell..... you must be educated !! I don't know why I even waste my time ( and this will be the last ) since you've already proven your new name IDON'TKNOWHOOPS and I'll refer you by that. I asked a simple question " name the world class defenders ( stay with me genius defenders is plural meaning more than one name ) that Lebron faced ?" You failed to that, you can't spell, so what that tells me is you're probably not too bright and by your responses very young and immature.

I'm not your " brat " you're responses are hilarious thought... I'm laughing every time I read them because you've proven to be nothing more than a clueless troll who hides behind his computer and can't even form a sentence/response that has any value. I guess the question was just too hard for you...... troll on...

Well then stay attached to Craig eelloes utter then. Since Draymond and Loenard arenít world class defenders and Eeelo is in your eyes, just stay right where u are attached to that utter and just keep drinking player.

Then go win that spelling B!

ewing
12-04-2017, 12:53 PM
Hoops really showing his lack of knowledge with these ad hominem attacks


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Bartlee23
12-04-2017, 02:17 PM
Well then stay attached to Craig eelloes utter then. Since Draymond and Loenard arenít world class defenders and Eeelo is in your eyes, just stay right where u are attached to that utter and just keep drinking player.

Then go win that spelling B!

Can you please respond in English? I can't understand what you're saying.... got another good laugh though... troll on.........

IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 04:32 PM
Hoops really showing his lack of knowledge with these ad hominem attacks


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Man, if you wanna wife Bart up, you don't have to do it off my back. Grow a pair and side message him straight up.

ewing
12-04-2017, 05:05 PM
Man, if you wanna wife Bart up, you don't have to do it off my back. Grow a pair and side message him straight up.

Iím just here for basketball conversation


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carter80
12-04-2017, 05:39 PM
I think he mentioned he's takenThat person is very lucky..

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IKnowHoops
12-04-2017, 11:17 PM
That person is very lucky..

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Agreed

prodigy
12-06-2017, 09:45 AM
I've been a staunch Jordan defender for the longest time. Jordan obviously had the better overall career, but when it comes to measuring talent... man, it's so close that I'm cool with an argument either way.

I will say this though: what LeBron is doing right now and in the past few years really makes me lean a bit to his side. He's just more of a complete player, given the ability to rebound and his insane passing ability and his improved 3-point shooting. Jordan was a talented passer but LeBron's passing is truly on a different level than his. LeBron's like a machine that can do any and everything needed on the court.

I mean think about it. Every single aspect of the game (including defense when he locks in). Scoring, rebounding, passing, defending, blocking, steals, post game, 3-point shooting, mid-range, slashing, clutch shooting, clutch defense, insane BBIQ, all at elite levels. He's literally a robot/machine. I mean come on... do you guys actually see what this dude has been doing? We're so numb to everything he's doing these days.

And I'm not forgetting Jordan's incredible *** either. I watched plenty of him and he was at that unrivaled level. I just don't know, man... it's more of a discussion than people seem to be willing to admit. Either side has good points and I think Jordan may have been the scarier scorer, but I'm really tipping my hat towards LeBron being the GOAT if the criteria is based on talent and doesn't include career accolades and accomplishments.

Everything you just said is 100% true. because of that its not even that close for me. Jordan just did not have the overall game of Lebron. There's not much that you can say MJ is better at then Lebron. FT shooting i guess.