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View Full Version : LBJ's posting .422 from the arc, and .632 inside: both career bests



JasonJohnHorn
11-27-2017, 11:10 PM
I'm dumbfounded.

LBJ is 33 this season. I've seen guys maintain their peak into their mid-thirties, but I've never seen an MVP play his best basketball ever at the age of 33.

This is just insane to me.

Thoughts? Is this an MVP season?

mightybosstone
11-27-2017, 11:29 PM
He's been insanely good this year. As for whether he wins MVP this season, I think it depends on Harden and on the voters. As good as Lebron has been, Harden has been better, and his team has the better record. But that hasn't stopped voters from voting against him in the past, as they put a ridiculous amount of weight on the best narrative in the media.

FlashBolt
11-27-2017, 11:31 PM
It's insane, really. He's actually gotten better. I remember when I said a few years ago that LeBron's athleticism is what made his peak near-untouchable and that he'll decline soon but I was wrong; this is clearly the best LeBron in terms of having the overall skillset. What he's able to accomplish out there is insane for any player of any age but at 33? My God. MVP probably goes to Harden but LeBron is still easily the best player in the game.

WaDe03
11-27-2017, 11:31 PM
He played his best basketball of his career in Miami, his defense is nowhere near what it was but he's still a great player and on top of the world.

So far though the MVP is Hardens to lose with LBJ 2nd and climbing his way up.

FlashBolt
11-27-2017, 11:33 PM
He played his best basketball of his career in Miami, his defense is nowhere near what it was but he's still a great player and on top of the world.

So far though the MVP is Hardens to lose with LBJ 2nd and climbing his way up.

I think James Harden has had an easier time to adjust because he isn't dealing with an entire new roster the way the Cavs are. If Cavs can somehow get close to the wins count, I see no reason LeBron shouldn't get the MVP votes. It's Harden and LeBron and no one else is close. Not KD, Curry, Irving.

Vee-Rex
11-27-2017, 11:34 PM
It IS an MVP season. Unfortunately, Harden is going crazy too and deserves it.

But wow, LeBron is simply a sight to behold. Simply incredible.

WaDe03
11-27-2017, 11:36 PM
I think James Harden has had an easier time to adjust because he isn't dealing with an entire new roster the way the Cavs are. If Cavs can somehow get close to the wins count, I see no reason LeBron shouldn't get the MVP votes. It's Harden and LeBron and no one else is close. Not KD, Curry, Irving.

Yea and it's still very early so obviously anything can happen. Curious to see if LeBron takes a little bit of a step back when IT gets back and the Nets pick is traded just to try and get guys comfortable and maybe spread the wealth a little for a more balanced attack.

mightybosstone
11-27-2017, 11:39 PM
I think James Harden has had an easier time to adjust because he isn't dealing with an entire new roster the way the Cavs are.
I agree with this to some extent, but let's not act like Harden's team is the same. Of the 10 guys getting the most minutes on the Rockets team right now, four of them weren't here a year ago.


If Cavs can somehow get close to the wins count, I see no reason LeBron shouldn't get the MVP votes.
Now, this I don't remotely agree with. Harden's numbers are better, and he's been the superior player this year. Period. If his numbers are better and the Rockets have the better record, he ought to win the damn award (finally).

FlashBolt
11-27-2017, 11:47 PM
I agree with this to some extent, but let's not act like Harden's team is the same. Of the 10 guys getting the most minutes on the Rockets team right now, four of them weren't here a year ago.


Now, this I don't remotely agree with. Harden's numbers are better, and he's been the superior player this year. Period. If his numbers are better and the Rockets have the better record, he ought to win the damn award (finally).

Their core guys are still the same, though. Look at the Cavs: Crowder, Jeff Green, IT, Wade, Calderon. The only players that actually played meaningful minutes are Korver, Channing, J.R., and Love. TT and Shump have been sidelined for much of the season so far.

I'm not sure Harden's numbers are better. LeBron has a higher PER, is more efficient, is beating him out in rebounds, and some other categories are close. Harden is shooting the ball better considering he's shooting more threes, has a higher assist count, and higher WS48. It's honestly really close. They're both equally great numbers but if we're going to talk about someone getting snubbed, it's been LeBron. He's gotten snubbed numerous times throughout his career.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-28-2017, 12:05 AM
1b.

TylerSL
11-28-2017, 01:02 AM
Through 20 games, the Cavs are 13-7, Lebron James is the 2017-18 NBA MVP. It's a long season but right now I have him as MVP. This would be my top 5 MVP

1. Lebron James: 28.5 pts, 7.8 rebs, 8.6 asts, 1.1 stls, 1.2 blks on .577/.423/.768 shooting
2. James Harden: 31.4 pts, 4.8 rebs, 9.8 asts, 1.7 stls, 0.5 blks on .456/.407/.859 shooting
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo: 29.5 pts, 10.5 rebs, 4.4 asts, 1.5 stls, 1.8 blks on .552/.258/.764 shooting
4. Kyrie Irving: 23.0 pts, 5.1 asts, 3.2 rebs, 1.7 stls, 0.3 blks on .480/.365/.879 shooting
5. Kristaps Porzingis: 27.3 pts, 7.2 rebs, 1.2 asts, 0.5 stls, 2.2 blks, on .464/.402/.841 shooting

Honorable Mentions: Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, and Russell Westbrook

Also, Lebron is clearly still the best player in the game.

nastynice
11-28-2017, 03:11 AM
He's arguably at his prime at 33 right now, and kinda trending upward, lol. The **** is unheard of

archdevil84
11-28-2017, 04:26 AM
and were not even taking into account here that he just walks off sprained ankles during games like its nothing at age 33

Meth
11-28-2017, 07:27 AM
He deserves MVP. Insane numbers especially at his age when players historically fall off. If we're going by narrative, LeBron definitely should win MVP considering how trash his team is.

PowerHouse
11-28-2017, 09:27 AM
Can we at least get to December before we start talking about career bests or MVP?

NFLAccess
11-28-2017, 09:28 AM
He deserves MVP. Insane numbers especially at his age when players historically fall off. If we're going by narrative, LeBron definitely should win MVP considering how trash his team is.I wouldn't say trash. On an 8 game win streak and hitting their stride

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IndyRealist
11-28-2017, 09:49 AM
There's precedent for athletes who suddenly jump in production in their 30s after starting to decline. They just start getting suspensions along with it.

europagnpilgrim
11-28-2017, 10:57 AM
It's insane, really. He's actually gotten better. I remember when I said a few years ago that LeBron's athleticism is what made his peak near-untouchable and that he'll decline soon but I was wrong; this is clearly the best LeBron in terms of having the overall skillset. What he's able to accomplish out there is insane for any player of any age but at 33? My God. MVP probably goes to Harden but LeBron is still easily the best player in the game.

After watching him play for 15yrs he has gotten better? more like just a cd on repeat and seeing it over and over day 1

I sware you experts outsmart yourselves way too much

of course you were wrong because he was a super supreme athlete like a Iverson so when they lose a step and a half it will go from super supreme athlete to just being super, Lebron has lost his super jumping ability and that all game chase down block energy but with the way the game is spread out it fits him way more and he doesn't have to expend a bunch of energy in games defensively because there is really no competition for him out East at the SF spot, and the ones out West he can just sick Crowder/Green/Smith on those

Iverson put up damn near 27ppg and 7apg and 2spg his final full season and he was basically 33yrs of age and almost a whole foot shorter

its the lack of competition and his ability to stay in lean conditioning that has allowed him to do this

so I guess since Lebron has a better 3pt percentage than Curry and Klay does that make him a ''better'' natural shooter? of course not so don't let the numbers fool you too much


Harden should have won last year and is on pace easily to win this year unless they change the method for it on the fly like they did last season

WaDe03
11-28-2017, 11:05 AM
He deserves MVP. Insane numbers especially at his age when players historically fall off. If we're going by narrative, LeBron definitely should win MVP considering how trash his team is.

How is LeBrons team trash? This narrative isn't working this year. He has one of the top benches in the league.

WaDe03
11-28-2017, 11:05 AM
There's precedent for athletes who suddenly jump in production in their 30s after starting to decline. They just start getting suspensions along with it.

HGH is the real MVP!

Chronz
11-28-2017, 11:39 AM
His stroke has never been so pure

ewing
11-28-2017, 11:40 AM
The league is fixed. Itís as bad as when George Forman won the heavyweight crown as an overweight 40 something


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FlashBolt
11-28-2017, 11:50 AM
After watching him play for 15yrs he has gotten better? more like just a cd on repeat and seeing it over and over day 1

I sware you experts outsmart yourselves way too much

of course you were wrong because he was a super supreme athlete like a Iverson so when they lose a step and a half it will go from super supreme athlete to just being super, Lebron has lost his super jumping ability and that all game chase down block energy but with the way the game is spread out it fits him way more and he doesn't have to expend a bunch of energy in games defensively because there is really no competition for him out East at the SF spot, and the ones out West he can just sick Crowder/Green/Smith on those

Iverson put up damn near 27ppg and 7apg and 2spg his final full season and he was basically 33yrs of age and almost a whole foot shorter

its the lack of competition and his ability to stay in lean conditioning that has allowed him to do this

so I guess since Lebron has a better 3pt percentage than Curry and Klay does that make him a ''better'' natural shooter? of course not so don't let the numbers fool you too much


Harden should have won last year and is on pace easily to win this year unless they change the method for it on the fly like they did last season

Ignored. Have a nice day, grandpa.

Driven
11-28-2017, 11:51 AM
His efficiency is ridiculous. His true shooting percentage is only surpassed by elite big men who get the easiest looks or elite three point shooters who take a limited number of shots. I think he'll end up getting the MVP, at age 33.

mightybosstone
11-28-2017, 07:32 PM
I'm not sure Harden's numbers are better. LeBron has a higher PER, is more efficient, is beating him out in rebounds, and some other categories are close. Harden is shooting the ball better considering he's shooting more threes, has a higher assist count, and higher WS48. It's honestly really close. They're both equally great numbers but if we're going to talk about someone getting snubbed, it's been LeBron. He's gotten snubbed numerous times throughout his career.
Harden's numbers are better, and I'm not sure how you can make a case otherwise.

Points: Harden (leads by 3.0)
Rebounds: Lebron (leads by 3.0, but the guy is 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, so....)
Assists: Harden (leads by 1.3)
PER: Lebron (leads by only 0.1)
WS: Harden (leads by 0.7)
WS/48: Harden (leads by .056, which is significant)
BPM: Harden (leads by 1.1)
VORP: Harden (leads by only 0.1)
TS%: Lebron (leads by 2.7%), but...
USG%: Harden (leads by 4.6%)

So Lebron has an edge in rebounding, which he absolutely should, and he's slightly more efficient as a scorer. However, Harden's usage rate crushes Lebron's, and the fact that he's been as efficient as he's been despite posting the highest usage in the league is incredible. Throw on top the fact that Harden has an edge in every other advanced statistic but PER and that he's got a sizable lead in terms of scoring and assists, and I have no clue what case could be made for Lebron having better numbers.

JasonJohnHorn
11-28-2017, 09:51 PM
Ignored. Have a nice day, grandpa.

+1

And I'm grandpa age myself!

Jamiecballer
11-28-2017, 10:19 PM
ladies and gentlemen is this the first time in history someone has used usage as as some sort of meaningful metric to determine who has played better? i've seen everything now.

Vee-Rex
11-28-2017, 11:01 PM
ladies and gentlemen is this the first time in history someone has used usage as as some sort of meaningful metric to determine who has played better? i've seen everything now.

:laugh2:

JordansBulls
11-28-2017, 11:46 PM
With the lack of bigs in the league now it is much easier to dominant. That is why all wings are going good. Hell Harden is even better.

Hustla23
11-28-2017, 11:51 PM
I feel like defense should be factored into the LBJ vs. Harden debate. Kinda.

JordansBulls
11-29-2017, 12:19 AM
I feel like defense should be factored into the LBJ vs. Harden debate. Kinda.

Why? It wasn't considered when Bird and Magic were getting 3 MVP's each or Nash getting 2 MVP's. Hell Harden hasn't won a mvp yet.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 01:23 AM
ladies and gentlemen is this the first time in history someone has used usage as as some sort of meaningful metric to determine who has played better? i've seen everything now.
Usage by itself is pointless. But when you use it in hand with other numbers, it absolutely has value. A player with high efficiency, but low usage isn't as productive as his efficiency may seem. And someone with a high usage and low efficiency is wasting a ton of possessions.

My point by comparing their usage is that Harden is nearly as efficient scoring the ball as Lebron despite a substantially higher usage rate. That's impressive.

Just looking at my post and making a joke to try and make me look foolish is completely taking what I'm saying out of context.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 01:36 AM
Harden's numbers are better, and I'm not sure how you can make a case otherwise.

Points: Harden (leads by 3.0)
Rebounds: Lebron (leads by 3.0, but the guy is 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, so....)
Assists: Harden (leads by 1.3)
PER: Lebron (leads by only 0.1)
WS: Harden (leads by 0.7)
WS/48: Harden (leads by .056, which is significant)
BPM: Harden (leads by 1.1)
VORP: Harden (leads by only 0.1)
TS%: Lebron (leads by 2.7%), but...
USG%: Harden (leads by 4.6%)

So Lebron has an edge in rebounding, which he absolutely should, and he's slightly more efficient as a scorer. However, Harden's usage rate crushes Lebron's, and the fact that he's been as efficient as he's been despite posting the highest usage in the league is incredible. Throw on top the fact that Harden has an edge in every other advanced statistic but PER and that he's got a sizable lead in terms of scoring and assists, and I have no clue what case could be made for Lebron having better numbers.

You come off as incredibly biased. I said it's both close. I side with LeBron a bit more here because I think he's dealing with more adjustments on the team whereas Harden really isn't. LeBron has had to come up huge for his team in the fourth quarter numerous times. Harden really hasn't and he's part of a system where he's surrounded with volume shooters that can make them. I've seen LeBron play PG, PF, SF, and guard Porzingis/Blake and shut them down. You're saying it's not even close but you have to bring up Harden having a higher USG% as a PLUS for Harden.. Lmao, that has to be the most ridiculous OVERREACH of a statement I've come across here. You might as well say James Harden has a bigger beard at this point. "Harden is better because he has a higher USG% rate." How stupid does that even sound? I gotta ask: Do you know what USG% rate means?

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 01:42 AM
Usage by itself is pointless. But when you use it in hand with other numbers, it absolutely has value. A player with high efficiency, but low usage isn't as productive as his efficiency may seem. And some with a high usage and low efficiency is wasting a ton of possessions.

My point by comparing their usage is that Harden is nearly as efficient scoring the ball as Lebron despite a substantially higher usage rate. That's impressive.

Just looking at my post and making a joke to try and make me look foolish is completely taking what I'm saying out of context.

So you give Harden the benefit of a doubt with his USG% - which clearly explains why he is scoring more. Harden also has the ball in his hands more = more assists created. Harden is also surrounded with more shooters in a system that he is comfortable with already. You give none of that to LeBron, though. You leave a "but" there but I could do it to. "Harden has a higher USG% rate but... that's why he's scoring more than LeBron." Quit being biased, bud. It's damn close. Harden could win it or LeBron could as well if we had to vote today. I just simply side with LeBron because he's dealing with more changes and has been relied on to carry his team while IT+TT has been out. Outside of Beverley, Rockets haven't really changed much in terms of who they lost. That system of shooting threes at such a high volume has a lot to do with why the Rockets are successful. They might not have the better roster but they have a system where if they can just knock down 33% of their threes, they are probably winning the game anyways.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 01:56 AM
He played his best basketball of his career in Miami, his defense is nowhere near what it was but he's still a great player and on top of the world.

So far though the MVP is Hardens to lose with LBJ 2nd and climbing his way up.

His physical Prime was his last two years in Cleveland the first time. His skills incline faster than his athletic ability declines so he keeps getting a little more unstoppable with less a motor. At the end of the day, as good as he is right now, he can't impact the game like he could those last two years in his first Cleveland stint. Those teams that won 65 games were 25 win teams without him. A nonstop motor on an athlete of his caliber is like having an extra two guys out there. Lebron is now just an awesome individual who is more comparable to other players now. But before his effect was truly unquantifiable imo. He made plays regularly all over the place that shouldn't be made but he needed to make it to win the game so he did it.

Not talking bout scoring, "just little hustle plays here and there that are impossible for everyone but him that he consistently making throughout a game that cause his team to win at the end"- Bron Effect

He doesn't make those plays anymore. Doesn't have the motor or the agility, but he still has what it takes to be the best individual guy. He's no longer the force of nature he was, but is the best player in the league easily. But it's closer than it's ever been because the motor isn't close to what it was...naturally.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 02:08 AM
His physical Prime was his last two years in Cleveland the first time. His skills incline faster than his athletic ability declines so he keeps getting a little more unstoppable with less a motor. At the end of the day, as good as he is right now, he can't impact the game like he could those last two years in his first Cleveland stint. Those teams that won 65 games were 25 win teams without him. A nonstop motor on an athlete of his caliber is like having an extra two guys out there. Lebron is now just an awesome individual who is more comparable to other players now. But before his effect was truly unquantifiable imo. He made plays regularly all over the place that shouldn't be made but he needed to make it to win the game so he did it.

Not talking bout scoring, "just little hustle plays here and there that are impossible for everyone but him that he consistently making throughout a game that cause his team to win at the end"- Bron Effect

He doesn't make those plays anymore. Doesn't have the motor or the agility, but he still has what it takes to be the best individual guy. He's no longer the force of nature he was, but is the best player in the league easily. But it's closer than it's ever been because the motor isn't close to what it was...naturally.

Yeah, 2007-2009 LeBron was just unreal. People will look at his Miami days as his physical peak and it does make a bit sense considering he was much bigger than his original CLE days but man, that LeBron from 07-09 was flying over everyone with ease. Miami Bron just overpowered everyone. This CLE 2.0 LeBron is outsmarting everyone. I'm just not sure we've ever seen a player like LeBron where his physical attributes were so good he didn't even need a BBIQ to where now, his BBIQ is so high that he doesn't depend on his physical attributes as the sole purpose of his game. I think Jeff Green spoke about how LeBron just knew every play the Celtics were running years ago and that he probably knew them better than they did. And Avery Bradley comes out after the playoffs saying LeBron ran the same play every possession because he knew the Celtics didn't have an answer for it. Imagine an 07-09 physical LeBron with 15-17 genius LeBron.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 02:10 AM
Harden's numbers are better, and I'm not sure how you can make a case otherwise.

Points: Harden (leads by 3.0)
Rebounds: Lebron (leads by 3.0, but the guy is 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, so....)
Assists: Harden (leads by 1.3)
PER: Lebron (leads by only 0.1)
WS: Harden (leads by 0.7)
WS/48: Harden (leads by .056, which is significant)
BPM: Harden (leads by 1.1)
VORP: Harden (leads by only 0.1)
TS%: Lebron (leads by 2.7%), but...
USG%: Harden (leads by 4.6%)

So Lebron has an edge in rebounding, which he absolutely should, and he's slightly more efficient as a scorer. However, Harden's usage rate crushes Lebron's, and the fact that he's been as efficient as he's been despite posting the highest usage in the league is incredible. Throw on top the fact that Harden has an edge in every other advanced statistic but PER and that he's got a sizable lead in terms of scoring and assists, and I have no clue what case could be made for Lebron having better numbers.

Good info, but if you really have no clue, then you are just the ultimate homer and your opinions on all things rockets/harden have an asterisk.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 02:11 AM
With the lack of bigs in the league now it is much easier to dominant. That is why all wings are going good. Hell Harden is even better.

On cue, he defends Jordan

aman_13
11-29-2017, 02:13 AM
Harden's numbers are better, and I'm not sure how you can make a case otherwise.

Points: Harden (leads by 3.0)
Rebounds: Lebron (leads by 3.0, but the guy is 3 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier, so....)
Assists: Harden (leads by 1.3)
PER: Lebron (leads by only 0.1)
WS: Harden (leads by 0.7)
WS/48: Harden (leads by .056, which is significant)
BPM: Harden (leads by 1.1)
VORP: Harden (leads by only 0.1)
TS%: Lebron (leads by 2.7%), but...
USG%: Harden (leads by 4.6%)

So Lebron has an edge in rebounding, which he absolutely should, and he's slightly more efficient as a scorer. However, Harden's usage rate crushes Lebron's, and the fact that he's been as efficient as he's been despite posting the highest usage in the league is incredible. Throw on top the fact that Harden has an edge in every other advanced statistic but PER and that he's got a sizable lead in terms of scoring and assists, and I have no clue what case could be made for Lebron having better numbers.

There is no correlation though.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 02:17 AM
So you give Harden the benefit of a doubt with his USG% - which clearly explains why he is scoring more. Harden also has the ball in his hands more = more assists created. Harden is also surrounded with more shooters in a system that he is comfortable with already. You give none of that to LeBron, though. You leave a "but" there but I could do it to. "Harden has a higher USG% rate but... that's why he's scoring more than LeBron." Quit being biased, bud. It's damn close. Harden could win it or LeBron could as well if we had to vote today. I just simply side with LeBron because he's dealing with more changes and has been relied on to carry his team while IT+TT has been out. Outside of Beverley, Rockets haven't really changed much in terms of who they lost. That system of shooting threes at such a high volume has a lot to do with why the Rockets are successful. They might not have the better roster but they have a system where if they can just knock down 33% of their threes, they are probably winning the game anyways.

Hey mighty read those first two sentences over and over and over again. Your biased AF! It really doesn't get more biased bro. Just relax, take a step back. It's close. If either Harden or Bron got it today, they would both deserve it.

IKnowHoops
11-29-2017, 02:23 AM
Yeah, 2007-2009 LeBron was just unreal. People will look at his Miami days as his physical peak and it does make a bit sense considering he was much bigger than his original CLE days but man, that LeBron from 07-09 was flying over everyone with ease. Miami Bron just overpowered everyone. This CLE 2.0 LeBron is outsmarting everyone. I'm just not sure we've ever seen a player like LeBron where his physical attributes were so good he didn't even need a BBIQ to where now, his BBIQ is so high that he doesn't depend on his physical attributes as the sole purpose of his game. I think Jeff Green spoke about how LeBron just knew every play the Celtics were running years ago and that he probably knew them better than they did. And Avery Bradley comes out after the playoffs saying LeBron ran the same play every possession because he knew the Celtics didn't have an answer for it. Imagine an 07-09 physical LeBron with 15-17 genius LeBron.

That's the player that just can't exist, would score every time down.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 07:53 AM
You come off as incredibly biased. I said it's both close. I side with LeBron a bit more here because I think he's dealing with more adjustments on the team whereas Harden really isn't. LeBron has had to come up huge for his team in the fourth quarter numerous times. Harden really hasn't and he's part of a system where he's surrounded with volume shooters that can make them. I've seen LeBron play PG, PF, SF, and guard Porzingis/Blake and shut them down. You're saying it's not even close but you have to bring up Harden having a higher USG% as a PLUS for Harden.. Lmao, that has to be the most ridiculous OVERREACH of a statement I've come across here. You might as well say James Harden has a bigger beard at this point. "Harden is better because he has a higher USG% rate." How stupid does that even sound? I gotta ask: Do you know what USG% rate means?
There is very little bias when it comes to numbers (at least in this case). I'm simply looking at the stats. And when a player has an edge in the majority of numbers by which we judge athletes, that's how you make the determination of "Player A has better stats than Player B." Pretty simple math.

And I recognize that numbers by themselves cannot be the sole barometer by which we judge athletes. I've watched a fair amount of Rockets games and pieces of a handful of Cavs games. I saw Harden outplay Lebron head-to-head. I also think "Lebron isn't as comfortable playing with his teammates as Harden is" to be a pretty lame excuse to justify Lebron over Harden, because (and remember that I love Lebron before I say this) it's partially Lebron's doing that his roster was overhauled in the offseason. He and Kyrie couldn't get along, and he has more say in the makeup of his team's roster than any professional athlete in the country. So if that's his excuse for his numbers not being quite as good, then isn't it a moot point since these were clearly the players he chose to play with?

And, yes, I'm fully aware of what usage rate means. You're the second person to act like a condescending tool ahout it, and if that's how you want to debate sports, I'm done with this conversation.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 08:09 AM
Hey mighty read those first two sentences over and over and over again. Your biased AF! It really doesn't get more biased bro. Just relax, take a step back. It's close. If either Harden or Bron got it today, they would both deserve it.
I'm not saying it isn't close. I'm simply saying that Harden is putting up slightly better stats on a clearly better basketball team. Both guys are deserving, but using the barometers we use to judge athletes, Harden is a little more deserving of MVP right now. Ever look at Basketball Reference's MVP tracker? It compiles a player's numbers with his team's success and spits out a probability of a player winning MVP. Right now Harden is at 76 percent to Lebron's 12 percent. And it's hardly a perfect indicator, and it's often wrong, but there's an unbiased numerical-based opinion that backs up what I'm trying to say.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 08:11 AM
There is no correlation though.

Look, I can't keep making this argument laying in bed on my phone at 6 a.m., but at some point today, if I have time, I'll come back to better explain this point.

ewing
11-29-2017, 09:06 AM
You come off as incredibly biased. I said it's both close. I side with LeBron a bit more here because I think he's dealing with more adjustments on the team whereas Harden really isn't. LeBron has had to come up huge for his team in the fourth quarter numerous times. Harden really hasn't and he's part of a system where he's surrounded with volume shooters that can make them. I've seen LeBron play PG, PF, SF, and guard Porzingis/Blake and shut them down. You're saying it's not even close but you have to bring up Harden having a higher USG% as a PLUS for Harden.. Lmao, that has to be the most ridiculous OVERREACH of a statement I've come across here. You might as well say James Harden has a bigger beard at this point. "Harden is better because he has a higher USG% rate." How stupid does that even sound? I gotta ask: Do you know what USG% rate means?

Why so angry lately, flashbolt?


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Htownballa1622
11-29-2017, 10:06 AM
You come off as incredibly biased. I said it's both close. I side with LeBron a bit more here because I think he's dealing with more adjustments on the team whereas Harden really isn't. LeBron has had to come up huge for his team in the fourth quarter numerous times. Harden really hasn't and he's part of a system where he's surrounded with volume shooters that can make them. I've seen LeBron play PG, PF, SF, and guard Porzingis/Blake and shut them down. You're saying it's not even close but you have to bring up Harden having a higher USG% as a PLUS for Harden.. Lmao, that has to be the most ridiculous OVERREACH of a statement I've come across here. You might as well say James Harden has a bigger beard at this point. "Harden is better because he has a higher USG% rate." How stupid does that even sound? I gotta ask: Do you know what USG% rate means?

Here Lebron....Have this mvp award over a guy who is putting up more statistical production and has a better team because you, Lebron, are dealing with more.

Tremendous logic and you're calling MBT biased?

Lebron is my favorite player in the world. He's also the best in the world.

He has not been the mvp this year over Harden. :shrug:

Cal827
11-29-2017, 10:24 AM
He's been phenomenal, but I don't think he'll win MVP this year unless he breaks a record (like that goes up to 50% from 3 or some crazy thing like that. I say that because I think he's getting the point like Jordan, or to a lesser extent Shaq (well at least in 2004). Just because he's been picked so often, voters will tend to stray away from him.... If it's close between him and someone else, they might lean to the other guy.

I think that Harden wins it this year, and if not him, Giannis. He's been fantastic, and he was second in voting in 2015 (where he should have beaten Curry for MVP), and then last year. Kawhi has been out for probably too long to be in consideration, and Milwaukee needs to catch fire for Giannis be on par; a 6th-8th place standing doesn't help unless you're either in the West or Put up Triple Double like Numbers :laugh2:

Jamiecballer
11-29-2017, 11:13 AM
Usage by itself is pointless. But when you use it in hand with other numbers, it absolutely has value. A player with high efficiency, but low usage isn't as productive as his efficiency may seem. And someone with a high usage and low efficiency is wasting a ton of possessions.

My point by comparing their usage is that Harden is nearly as efficient scoring the ball as Lebron despite a substantially higher usage rate. That's impressive.

Just looking at my post and making a joke to try and make me look foolish is completely taking what I'm saying out of context.I get what you are saying but usage is a double edged sword. A super high usage rate - not saying hardens is crazy or anything, but a super high usage rate would generally be considered a negative in my eyes. Of course it is true, someone with a usage rate in the low 20's is likely to be more efficient but comparing players who are star caliber i would say the difference in usage is best dis-regarded. These are not the type of guys who are putting up low 20 usg rates. System and unselfishness should not penalize in this type of conversation imo.

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FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:19 PM
There is very little bias when it comes to numbers (at least in this case). I'm simply looking at the stats. And when a player has an edge in the majority of numbers by which we judge athletes, that's how you make the determination of "Player A has better stats than Player B." Pretty simple math.

And I recognize that numbers by themselves cannot be the sole barometer by which we judge athletes. I've watched a fair amount of Rockets games and pieces of a handful of Cavs games. I saw Harden outplay Lebron head-to-head. I also think "Lebron isn't as comfortable playing with his teammates as Harden is" to be a pretty lame excuse to justify Lebron over Harden, because (and remember that I love Lebron before I say this) it's partially Lebron's doing that his roster was overhauled in the offseason. He and Kyrie couldn't get along, and he has more say in the makeup of his team's roster than any professional athlete in the country. So if that's his excuse for his numbers not being quite as good, then isn't it a moot point since these were clearly the players he chose to play with?

And, yes, I'm fully aware of what usage rate means. You're the second person to act like a condescending tool ahout it, and if that's how you want to debate sports, I'm done with this conversation.

You add *but* to LeBron > Harden TS%.. so no, you're not just looking at the stats. You're trying to find reasons as to why LeBron has a higher TS% than Harden so you can defend him and try to mitigate that advantage LeBron has. Count the stats.. it's really close. Are we really going to cry about a less than .1 difference in VORP? I mean, Harden has more turnovers too if we're trying to be that picky. Some of these stats are nice but it doesn't really change anyone's mind at all when they are this close.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:21 PM
Here Lebron....Have this mvp award over a guy who is putting up more statistical production and has a better team because you, Lebron, are dealing with more.

Tremendous logic and you're calling MBT biased?

Lebron is my favorite player in the world. He's also the best in the world.

He has not been the mvp this year over Harden. :shrug:

How else did you think RWB won? I'm simply going by how it is judged. Statistical production = not proven to be definitively better and there is not much of a separation, better team? I already went over the period of adjustment a player has to go through. Unfortunately, to voters, that does matter. Like I said, RWB won because KD left and he put up a triple double for an entire season. That's why he won.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 12:30 PM
You add *but* to LeBron > Harden TS%.. so no, you're not just looking at the stats. You're trying to find reasons as to why LeBron has a higher TS% than Harden so you can defend him and try to mitigate that advantage LeBron has. Count the stats.. it's really close. Are we really going to cry about a less than .1 difference in VORP? I mean, Harden has more turnovers too if we're trying to be that picky. Some of these stats are nice but it doesn't really change anyone's mind at all when they are this close.

So it's OK for you to provide a little context to the data, but not OK for me? Explain that logic. Also, I was simply looking at all the numbers to compare the two, and a TS% without considering things like points, FGA and USG% seems like an incomplete picture. DeAndre Jordan has posted elite TS% and eFG% number for years, but the guy has never scored more than 12.7 points per game or posted a USG% higher than 15.9.

Yanks All Day
11-29-2017, 12:31 PM
I think if you gave out the award right now, it's going to James Harden. His team has the better record and he's playing really well. It makes sense.

But the bigger story, to me, is that LeBron James at 33 is putting up numbers comparable to and/or better than guys who are 27 or 28. James Harden is 5 years younger than LeBron. He SHOULD be a better player. But he's not. Harden, Curry, Durant, Giannis, etc. These guys are all much younger than LeBron, and he's still so much better. I don't understand it, but I'm going to appreciate it while I can.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:48 PM
So it's OK for you to provide a little context to the data, but not OK for me? Explain that logic. Also, I was simply looking at all the numbers to compare the two, and a TS% without considering things like points, FGA and USG% seems like an incomplete picture. DeAndre Jordan has posted elite TS% and eFG% number for years, but the guy has never scored more than 12.7 points per game or posted a USG% higher than 15.9.

Again, adding a *asterisk to it just like you did with LeBron rebounding numbers. The fact LeBron is 6'8 and racking that amount of assists should deserve an asterisk as well then. You're looking for bonus points for Harden. I gave the cold hard numbers as it was and didn't add any *but* Harden is taking more shots = more points. Why don't you say that at all? Harden has more points because he has a higher USG% and more FGA. You're trying to argue the stats as if LeBron should be penalized for them. Also, last year Harden averaged 8.1 rebounds. Why the sudden drop-off? You're making it seem as if Harden is blowing LeBron away statistically when there is no evidence that suggests that. Are they a little better? Sure, if you prefer a certain stat. But it's not enough to sway away voters because Harden has a higher VORP or WS48. And you damn sure won't convince anyone Harden has a higher USG% and that explains his TS% being a bit lower = it's balanced.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 01:04 PM
Again, adding a *asterisk to it just like you did with LeBron rebounding numbers. The fact LeBron is 6'8 and racking that amount of assists should deserve an asterisk as well then. You're looking for bonus points for Harden. I gave the cold hard numbers as it was and didn't add any *but* Harden is taking more shots = more points. Why don't you say that at all? Harden has more points because he has a higher USG% and more FGA. You're trying to argue the stats as if LeBron should be penalized for them. Also, last year Harden averaged 8.1 rebounds. Why the sudden drop-off? You're making it seem as if Harden is blowing LeBron away statistically when there is no evidence that suggests that. Are they a little better? Sure, if you prefer a certain stat. But it's not enough to sway away voters because Harden has a higher VORP or WS48. And you damn sure won't convince anyone Harden has a higher USG% and that explains his TS% being a bit lower = it's balanced.

I never said Harden was "blowing away" Lebron statistically. I just think that any unbiased, competent fan would look at the numbers and logically think Harden was a little better statistically. There's no shame in that, and it's hardly a knock on Lebron. But I'm kind of done with this argument. Both guys are having phenomenal seasons and nitpicking an MVP conversation 20 games into the season is a pointless exercise.

It kinda seems like you don't want to give Harden the credit he deserves, and that's fine. We can simply agree to disagree.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 01:11 PM
I never said Harden was "blowing away" Lebron statistically. I just think that any unbiased, competent fan would look at the numbers and logically think Harden was a little better statistically. There's no shame in that, and it's hardly a knock on Lebron. But I'm kind of done with this argument. Both guys are having phenomenal seasons and nitpicking an MVP conversation 20 games into the season is a pointless exercise.

It kinda seems like you don't want to give Harden the credit he deserves, and that's fine. We can simply agree to disagree.

LeBron is having one of his best season's statistically and I said Harden could win MVP = I'm not giving Harden any credit? Like I already told you, it's really damn close. If you're going to nitpick USG% rates to manipulate a stat, use a less than .1 differential in VORP, and say LeBron only leads Harden in rebounding because he's bigger but you won't acknowledge that Harden averaged pretty much the same rebounding last season, then obviously Harden, in your own mind, would be perceived to have the better numbers. Just looking at the raw numbers, it's really damn close that it just wouldn't make any sense to say Harden's numbers are better. Harden is leading his team to more wins is probably his biggest case. LeBron having to adjust with different teammates and an overhaul of half his team is his best argument. I just side with having to adjust.

BKLYNpigeon
11-29-2017, 01:12 PM
You know how voters are going to vote.

It will be a race between lebron and Harden. But harden will win for finishing 2nd the last few years.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 01:56 PM
LeBron is having one of his best season's statistically and I said Harden could win MVP = I'm not giving Harden any credit? Like I already told you, it's really damn close. If you're going to nitpick USG% rates to manipulate a stat, use a less than .1 differential in VORP, and say LeBron only leads Harden in rebounding because he's bigger but you won't acknowledge that Harden averaged pretty much the same rebounding last season, then obviously Harden, in your own mind, would be perceived to have the better numbers. Just looking at the raw numbers, it's really damn close that it just wouldn't make any sense to say Harden's numbers are better. Harden is leading his team to more wins is probably his biggest case. LeBron having to adjust with different teammates and an overhaul of half his team is his best argument. I just side with having to adjust.

Again, we can simply agree to disagree. But as for an unbiased, totally data driven approach to this argument, I'll just leave this here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 02:08 PM
Again, we can simply agree to disagree. But as for an unbiased, totally data driven approach to this argument, I'll just leave this here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

This means nothing lol..

IndyRealist
11-29-2017, 02:08 PM
Again, we can simply agree to disagree. But as for an unbiased, totally data driven approach to this argument, I'll just leave this here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

That doesn't say what you want it to say. It's strictly a voting model, not based on stats.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 02:16 PM
Again, we can simply agree to disagree. But as for an unbiased, totally data driven approach to this argument, I'll just leave this here:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.html

"MVP probably goes to Harden but LeBron is still easily the best player in the game."

My first post in this thread. Just in case you had any confusion on who I think will win the MVP. That's completely different from who I think deserves MVP, though. Harden would win if it ended today. LeBron, IMO, still the MVP of the league face value.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 03:03 PM
That doesn't say what you want it to say. It's strictly a voting model, not based on stats.

It both does and doesn't. It doesn't directly measure a player's overall production and every single advanced statistic to determine how he should finish in MVP voting. Rather, it takes a look at how a player's overall resume that season (including team success and some statistics) to determine how voters will likely vote based on previous years. I'm not sure if it's been updated since it was first implemented in 2009, but it was originally based on simply points, rebounds, assists and team record.

It's not exactly what we've been discussing, but it does kind of prove my point: an unbiased observer looking at both players' resumes at this point would likely take Harden over Lebron.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 03:07 PM
It both does and doesn't. It doesn't directly measure a player's overall production and every single advanced statistic to determine how he should finish in MVP voting. Rather, it takes a look at how a player's overall resume that season (including team success and some statistics) to determine how voters will likely vote based on previous years. I'm not sure if it's been updated since it was first implemented in 2009, but it was originally based on simply points, rebounds, assists and team record.

It's not exactly what we've been discussing, but it does kind of prove my point: an unbiased observer looking at both players' resumes at this point would likely take Harden over Lebron.

Did you have Harden winning MVP or Westbrook?

IndyRealist
11-29-2017, 03:15 PM
It both does and doesn't. It doesn't directly measure a player's overall production and every single advanced statistic to determine how he should finish in MVP voting. Rather, it takes a look at how a player's overall resume that season (including team success and some statistics) to determine how voters will likely vote based on previous years. I'm not sure if it's been updated since it was first implemented in 2009, but it was originally based on simply points, rebounds, assists and team record.

It's not exactly what we've been discussing, but it does kind of prove my point: an unbiased observer looking at both players' resumes at this point would likely take Harden over Lebron.

Because MVP voting is primarly based on points, rebounds, assists, and team record, because the average voter is ignorant. It only models how voting happens, not whether player A is better than player B.

prodigy
11-29-2017, 03:56 PM
People saying harden is having a better year. Thats highly debatable. Ya harden is shooting more so he has more points. But Lebrons shooting the ball much better from inside and out. (never thought i would say that lol but he is). Lebrons rebounding better and assists are close, also better defense. Lebron has taken the other teams best player at end of games from Center to PG and shut them down. He's also the best closer in basketball right not in the last 5 mins of games.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 04:11 PM
People saying harden is having a better year. Thats highly debatable. Ya harden is shooting more so he has more points. But Lebrons shooting the ball much better from inside and out. (never thought i would say that lol but he is). Lebrons rebounding better and assists are close, also better defense. Lebron has taken the other teams best player at end of games from Center to PG and shut them down. He's also the best closer in basketball right not in the last 5 mins of games.

My point exactly. LeBron snoozes on defense at times but when it comes to it, he has shut down KP and Blake. There's value in that as well. To Harden's defense, though, he's shooting the ball better than LeBron. Higher percentage =/= better shooter always. The amount of threes Harden is taking and making easily makes him the better shooter.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 07:48 PM
Wow. Talk about perfect timing. Check out this article from 538: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/can-james-hardens-mvp-campaign-survive-chris-paul/?addata=espn:frontpage

It does a much better job of explaining why Harden's usage rate and offensive prowess this season is so impressive so much better than I ever could. But it gets at the crux of what I was trying to explain last night and this morning:


Heís producing about 122 points for every 100 possessions heís personally responsible for, a number usually reserved for three-point specialists, low-scoring big men and LeBron, but with the usage rate of a player who controls his teamís every offensive move. Once again, Harden is pushing the boundaries of just how many points one player can create for his team.

If he keeps this up, Harden would become the first qualified1 player since at least the 1976 ABA-NBA merger to use 35 percent or more of a teamís possessions while putting up an offensive rating of 120 or more. Depending on how you look at it, he would either be the most efficient high-usage player ever or shoulder the biggest responsibility of any high-efficiency player ever. Either way, it would make Harden the most valuable offensive weapon in the game.

Whatís unique about Harden is how his scoring and passing play off of each other, making it virtually impossible to shut off his firehose of production. He currently leads the league in both assist rate and usage rate, an accomplishment that has been pulled off only one other time ó by Russell Westbrook last season. And while Westbrook ranked 126th in true shooting percentage last year, Harden ranks 25th this season thanks to an eye-popping assortment of shot-making numbers: 51 percent on 2-pointers, 41 percent on threes and 86 percent from the line (where he still finagles himself 9.3 times per game, the most in the league). Among players in the 50-40-85 club for those percentages in a season, nobody has ever come close to doing it with a usage rate like Hardenís so far this year. Whenever Harden touches the ball, almost exclusively good things happen for Houston.

mightybosstone
11-29-2017, 07:53 PM
But Lebrons shooting the ball much better from inside and out.
The perimeter shooting aspect of this just simply isn't true. Yes, Lebron is shooting a higher percentage from the 3-point line. But you're not taking volume into account. Lebron is on pace to shoot about 164 3-pointers this season. That's solid, but it would tie him for the 214th most 3-pointers in a single season. Harden is taking and making more than twice as many. He's on pace for 369 3-pointers in a season, which would be the second most in the history of the NBA.

ewing
11-29-2017, 07:57 PM
I think it is a little early to be this serious about the MVP debate. it is amazing that LeBron has become a much more consistent shooter late in his career. very impressive

IndyRealist
11-29-2017, 09:20 PM
Wow. Talk about perfect timing. Check out this article from 538: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/can-james-hardens-mvp-campaign-survive-chris-paul/?addata=espn:frontpage

It does a much better job of explaining why Harden's usage rate and offensive prowess this season is so impressive so much better than I ever could. But it gets at the crux of what I was trying to explain last night and this morning:

So can people stop saying that there is such a thing as a usage curve, please?

flea
11-29-2017, 09:21 PM
Wake me up when the exhibition games are over.

Vee-Rex
11-29-2017, 10:40 PM
Wake me up when the exhibition games are over.

Wake me up when you wake up.

flea
11-29-2017, 10:45 PM
Wake me up when you wake up.

I was born #woke.

ewing
11-29-2017, 11:39 PM
So can people stop saying that there is such a thing as a usage curve, please?

if i had a dime for every time someone said usage curve I'd have a dime

prodigy
11-30-2017, 10:04 AM
My point exactly. LeBron snoozes on defense at times but when it comes to it, he has shut down KP and Blake. There's value in that as well. To Harden's defense, though, he's shooting the ball better than LeBron. Higher percentage =/= better shooter always. The amount of threes Harden is taking and making easily makes him the better shooter.

I was just going by shooting numbers. Lebrons at 58% and 42 from 3 lol. thats just freakin nuts. Its not like he drives everytime either. He shoots a good number of 3's and jumpers to go along with his finishing ability.

prodigy
11-30-2017, 10:15 AM
The perimeter shooting aspect of this just simply isn't true. Yes, Lebron is shooting a higher percentage from the 3-point line. But you're not taking volume into account. Lebron is on pace to shoot about 164 3-pointers this season. That's solid, but it would tie him for the 214th most 3-pointers in a single season. Harden is taking and making more than twice as many. He's on pace for 369 3-pointers in a season, which would be the second most in the history of the NBA.

Im not going to punish Lebron for not jacking as many three's as harden because Bron knows his ability to drive is still prob the best in the league. it also helps his teammates by kicking out. Cool thing about this cavs team is they have a great bench. So Lebron does not have to score 40 a game anymore for us to get offense. During this 9 game streak that has been very clear. Cavs have even pulled away from teams with lebron on the bench.

I know tech Harden is the better shooter. But one thing i learned very quickly, never doubt lebron. His ability to work hard and improve his game as he gets older is unreal.

mightybosstone
11-30-2017, 10:53 AM
Im not going to punish Lebron for not jacking as many three's as harden because Bron knows his ability to drive is still prob the best in the league. it also helps his teammates by kicking out. Cool thing about this cavs team is they have a great bench. So Lebron does not have to score 40 a game anymore for us to get offense. During this 9 game streak that has been very clear. Cavs have even pulled away from teams with lebron on the bench.

I know tech Harden is the better shooter. But one thing i learned very quickly, never doubt lebron. His ability to work hard and improve his game as he gets older is unreal.

I don't disagree with any of this. Lebron's ability to improve his game over the years has always impressed me. My point is simply that Harden is still clearly the more dangerous and reliable perimeter shooter.

IndyRealist
11-30-2017, 11:09 AM
if i had a dime for every time someone said usage curve I'd have a dime

You're right, no one knows the terminology for the falsehoods they perpetuate. How about no one say:

1) "If they shoot more, they'll be less efficient" or conversely
2) "If they shoot less, they'll be more efficient".

Time and again usage curves have been shown to be bunk, yet they keep coming up and everyone just nods their virtual heads like it's the equivalent of the sky being blue.

IndyRealist
11-30-2017, 11:13 AM
Because MVP voting is primarly based on points, rebounds, assists, and team record, because the average voter is ignorant. It only models how voting happens, not whether player A is better than player B.

One more thing on this. This is exactly how PER was constructed, to model what the average, uninformed NBA fan thinks of players. Not to model what they actually did.

prodigy
11-30-2017, 01:31 PM
I don't disagree with any of this. Lebron's ability to improve his game over the years has always impressed me. My point is simply that Harden is still clearly the more dangerous and reliable perimeter shooter.

a random game on a Tuesday ya Harden. Postseason? I'm taking Lebron.

Heediot
11-30-2017, 09:29 PM
Bron has world class work ethic which is why he is one of the goats. Dude is smart, his athleticism and ability to get to the hole was-is his bread and butter, but as he ages he knows he has to add more range to his game to counter his decline in other facts, although his decline in other areas is not really noticeable. I think defensively his decline will be more obvious, offensively the way the game is played he`ll be aight.

FlashBolt
11-30-2017, 11:07 PM
Bron has world class work ethic which is why he is one of the goats. Dude is smart, his athleticism and ability to get to the hole was-is his bread and butter, but as he ages he knows he has to add more range to his game to counter his decline in other facts, although his decline in other areas is not really noticeable. I think defensively his decline will be more obvious, offensively the way the game is played he`ll be aight.

Yeah. Plus, they could always slide LeBron into power forward if he's declining. You can't tell me Draymond is a better rebounder/passer than LeBron. Defender? Probably. But if Draymond is still a top ten player, LeBron should have no problem even at an old age to replicate what Draymond is doing. It's probably why Sixers is such a good team for Lebron to consider eventually. Ben could take PG duties, LeBron can roam around, and Embiid would allow LeBron to post up.

JasonJohnHorn
11-30-2017, 11:17 PM
LBJ just dropped 24 points on 11 shots. WTF?

FlashBolt
11-30-2017, 11:33 PM
LBJ just dropped 24 points on 11 shots. WTF?

He's been really selective with his shots so that definitely preserves possessions. Well-rounded Cavs scorers as well today so he got some easy ones and made extra passes. Just a really smart game from him.

IKnowHoops
12-01-2017, 12:32 AM
Yeah. Plus, they could always slide LeBron into power forward if he's declining. You can't tell me Draymond is a better rebounder/passer than LeBron. Defender? Probably. But if Draymond is still a top ten player, LeBron should have no problem even at an old age to replicate what Draymond is doing. It's probably why Sixers is such a good team for Lebron to consider eventually. Ben could take PG duties, LeBron can roam around, and Embiid would allow LeBron to post up.

Draymond does nothing better. He doesn't have to score so he can just run around and make hustle plays. If Bron had the same freedom that Dray had, you can bet your sweet --- he would do anything and everything better than Dray based off being bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, better.

ewing
12-01-2017, 09:49 AM
LBJ just dropped 24 points on 11 shots. WTF?

Thatís a magic Johnson stat line


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krazylegz
12-01-2017, 03:02 PM
he'll be even better at 34

IKnowHoops
12-02-2017, 01:54 PM
Hey Tre? Can I place a bet in Vegas that at age 40 Lebron will be an all star starter? Are ther odds on this kind of thing?

prodigy
12-03-2017, 12:41 PM
Hey Tre? Can I place a bet in Vegas that at age 40 Lebron will be an all star starter? Are ther odds on this kind of thing?

Prob good since yao Ming made all-star game when he wasn't even playing. All-star games a joke. fans are dumb lol

FlashBolt
12-03-2017, 02:04 PM
Hey Tre? Can I place a bet in Vegas that at age 40 Lebron will be an all star starter? Are ther odds on this kind of thing?

The new format has changed so it's more merit-based I believe.