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mrblisterdundee
11-27-2017, 12:26 AM
Dirk Nowitzki took the last spot in the top 20. This round, I added Elvin Hayes, ranked 40th by ESPN's #NBArank (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160129/all-nbarank-36-40). Voting lasts two days.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Magic Johnson
8. Larry Bird
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Bill Russell
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. David Robinson
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Charles Barkley
18. Julius Erving
19. Karl Malone
20. Dirk Nowitzki

bloomis1307
11-27-2017, 11:42 AM
I don't know how John Stockton isn't being considered here yet

Sure he lacks championships but the guy sustained success for a long period of time. All time assist leader, all time steal leader, and the numbers aren't even close to anyone else. You look at his efficiency and the percentages are unprecedentedly high for the era he played in and for his position; over 40% from 3 in multiple years. The guy was top notch but gets penalized for not winning the big one. He should be at a similar place in the rankings as Malone and Barkley.

Giannis94
11-27-2017, 01:02 PM
Who was the guy that told me we needed 50 games to be put on here. We should be getting close for ya boi to getting put on here!

mrblisterdundee
11-27-2017, 07:07 PM
I don't know how John Stockton isn't being considered here yet

Sure he lacks championships but the guy sustained success for a long period of time. All time assist leader, all time steal leader, and the numbers aren't even close to anyone else. You look at his efficiency and the percentages are unprecedentedly high for the era he played in and for his position; over 40% from 3 in multiple years. The guy was top notch but gets penalized for not winning the big one. He should be at a similar place in the rankings as Malone and Barkley.

He's the highest-ranked on ESPN among the remaining options, so he should go soon. He'd be getting Nash stats in today's NBA, while still playing better defense. I could see him drilling a lot more threes, albeit at a lower efficiency. Dude had a PER of over 20 from his fourth season all the way through retirement.

FlashBolt
11-27-2017, 07:27 PM
I don't know how John Stockton isn't being considered here yet

Sure he lacks championships but the guy sustained success for a long period of time. All time assist leader, all time steal leader, and the numbers aren't even close to anyone else. You look at his efficiency and the percentages are unprecedentedly high for the era he played in and for his position; over 40% from 3 in multiple years. The guy was top notch but gets penalized for not winning the big one. He should be at a similar place in the rankings as Malone and Barkley.

His name presence and him playing alongside Karl really hurts him in all-time rankings. Sucks but it is what it is. I think Wade was clearly a better player than Stockton, though. Stockton has the consistency and longevity but Wade's peak was just miles better than Stockton.

valade16
11-27-2017, 11:43 PM
Voted Wade here but him, KD, and curry should be the next 3 in any order

FlashBolt
11-27-2017, 11:58 PM
I think Stockton and Pippen should be up soon as well. KD+Curry beat them in peak but I'm not sure they both have achieved enough, yet. KD's ring was poor in value and Curry really underperformed in the Finals. Those MVP's should help them, though. Close call.

valade16
11-28-2017, 01:10 AM
I think Stockton and Pippen should be up soon as well. KD+Curry beat them in peak but I'm not sure they both have achieved enough, yet. KD's ring was poor in value and Curry really underperformed in the Finals. Those MVP's should help them, though. Close call.

Well is KDís ring that much worse than any of Pippenís? KD at least got a FMVP (and an actual MVP) over Scottie and was clearly the better peak player. Also more All-NBA 1st teams. It is an interesting debate between them in that if you swapped them both the Bulls and Warriors win the titles.

Curry has the rings and MVPs over Stockton. You can argue longevity but itís clear Curry was just a flat out better player than Stockton.

They would both be in consideration at 24 and 25, but I personally wouldnít rank them above Curry, KD or wade (but I value peak very highly).

FlashBolt
11-28-2017, 02:52 AM
Well is KDís ring that much worse than any of Pippenís? KD at least got a FMVP (and an actual MVP) over Scottie and was clearly the better peak player. Also more All-NBA 1st teams. It is an interesting debate between them in that if you swapped them both the Bulls and Warriors win the titles.

Curry has the rings and MVPs over Stockton. You can argue longevity but itís clear Curry was just a flat out better player than Stockton.

They would both be in consideration at 24 and 25, but I personally wouldnít rank them above Curry, KD or wade (but I value peak very highly).

Pippen's defensive record while having six rings and being able to lead his team even without MJ still means something. I can't value KD's one ring with any satisfaction. It has got to be one of the least impressive rings by an NBA champion. As for Curry, maybe a few more years. I mean, Stockton was denied rings because of MJ so it's not exactly that simple for some of these guys.

bloomis1307
11-28-2017, 12:54 PM
Curry is great, but he hasn't done enough yet in my eyes. Stockton is the far better defender and facilitator whereas Curry just scores efficiently (something that today's no defense NBA finds more sexy towards MVPs). James Harden will win an mvp but is he top 25 all time with being so 1 dimensional? Don't get me wrong Curry has the accolades but for the majority of his career (9 seasons) he wasn't even considered the best PG in the league. The same can't be said for Stockton after Magic retired he was the best for an extended period of time. If Curry continues this level of dominence (one of if not the best PG in the NBA for the next 5 years) accolades aside then I would agree with you.

FlashBolt
11-28-2017, 01:07 PM
Curry is great, but he hasn't done enough yet in my eyes. Stockton is the far better defender and facilitator whereas Curry just scores efficiently (something that today's no defense NBA finds more sexy towards MVPs). James Harden will win an mvp but is he top 25 all time with being so 1 dimensional? Don't get me wrong Curry has the accolades but for the majority of his career (9 seasons) he wasn't even considered the best PG in the league. The same can't be said for Stockton after Magic retired he was the best for an extended period of time. If Curry continues this level of dominence (one of if not the best PG in the NBA for the next 5 years) accolades aside then I would agree with you.

How is Harden one-dimensional? He just came off a season averaging 30/8/11. Defense is literally the only thing he sucks at.

mrblisterdundee
11-28-2017, 01:28 PM
How is Harden one-dimensional? He just came off a season averaging 30/8/11. Defense is literally the only thing he sucks at.

It's not even a definite that he does suck on defense. He expends so much energy running his team's offense that he doesn't have enough left to go even half-bore on defense.

bloomis1307
11-28-2017, 03:31 PM
It was an exaggeration and what I meant was that he isn't a strong 2-way player. The point still remains regardless of his lack of energy.

tredigs
11-28-2017, 03:46 PM
It's not even a definite that he does suck on defense. He expends so much energy running his team's offense that he doesn't have enough left to go even half-bore on defense.

Defense is about effort as much as iq, and while he is passable when fully engaged, he either can't sustain that effort or he chooses not to (I haven't noticed a significant uptick in the playoffs either).

I don't buy the excuse of him conserving energy due to the offensive load either. Yes he has the ball in his hands more than anyone, but his style is extremely casual (if we're being nice we can call it energy efficient), and he is moving far slower and far less than a ton of guys in the league.
The NBA tracking stats have him outside the top 50 in "distance travelled" and outside the top 100 in "average speed", so there's no excuses for him being disengaged or lost defensively (I've seen worse defenders and he used to be worse himself, but even now he is sub par).

Defense, being overly reliant on the whistle (which does not always come and results in a missed shot or turnover if so), and being too careless with his passes at times are Garden's weaknesses. But he's so damn talented that if he stays healthy he will inevitably crack the top 25, and has a chance for the top depending on the heights he can take Houston.

As for this list I would go Stockton here (who watching him in the 90's I felt was often the best player on the floor for the Jazz + GOAT consistency and longevity) followed by the player who an argument could be made for him as having the GOAT offensive impact in Curry.

FlashBolt
11-28-2017, 04:07 PM
It was an exaggeration and what I meant was that he isn't a strong 2-way player. The point still remains regardless of his lack of energy.

Plenty of players aren't strong 2-way players. That doesn't mean he isn't well-rounded overall. One dimensional would mean he is a scorer or a good rebounder, or a good passer. He's all of that.

valade16
11-28-2017, 05:00 PM
Pippen's defensive record while having six rings and being able to lead his team even without MJ still means something. I can't value KD's one ring with any satisfaction. It has got to be one of the least impressive rings by an NBA champion. As for Curry, maybe a few more years. I mean, Stockton was denied rings because of MJ so it's not exactly that simple for some of these guys.

True, Pippen did lead the Bulls when MJ was out, but KD led the Thunder farther. As I said, I heavily weight peak performance and in that regard I just donít want to put a player I think wasnít as good at their peak above another simply because they played with Michael Jordan.

Pippen deserves consideration around 25, but 20 seems too high IMO.

bloomis1307
11-29-2017, 09:41 AM
Plenty of players aren't strong 2-way players. That doesn't mean he isn't well-rounded overall. One dimensional would mean he is a scorer or a good rebounder, or a good passer. He's all of that.

All semantics. If you say players aren't 2-way players that means you are IMO breaking it down into offense and defense and if he lacks at defense then he is a 1-way player. That is what I meant contextually....clearly he does more than just score but his majority contribution is to the offensive side of the ball, not on defense.

FlashBolt
11-29-2017, 12:13 PM
All semantics. If you say players aren't 2-way players that means you are IMO breaking it down into offense and defense and if he lacks at defense then he is a 1-way player. That is what I meant contextually....clearly he does more than just score but his majority contribution is to the offensive side of the ball, not on defense.

No, you said James Harden was one-dimensional.. Then you brought defense into it and that is categorized as a two-way player (someone who can play offense and defense). James is one of the best overall players in the game so I'm not sure why you say he's one-dimensional. One-dimensional would be someone like Kyrie.

ewing
12-02-2017, 12:33 AM
I think Wade is the clear choice but i think if there is an iconoclast pick its kidd. I know stats don't back it up but i don't think he was so much bigger then his stats. no one controlled a game like him.

mightybosstone
12-02-2017, 09:22 AM
Wade was an easy pick here. I would have put him ahead of Malone, but right behind Dirk. But I think that 20-25 range is perfect for him. The next pick is where things will start to get interesting. Do Curry and Durant finally make an appearance on this list or could it go to one of those elite No. 2 guys like Stockton or Pippen who typically fall around this range?

Really looking over the list, I'm torn to go with Chris Paul next. But I need to do a deeper dive into their resumes before seriously voting.