PDA

View Full Version : Tied game with 36 seconds in the 4th quarter: would you go two-for-one?



Meth
11-26-2017, 04:27 AM
Got into a nice debate with a coworker today. As the title and scenario states:

Game is tied in the 4th, your team has possession on offense with about ~36 seconds (time could be anything that would entail a two-for-one) on the game clock with the full shot clock. Would you rather have your team milk the clock, try to run a set play, and ultimately play for 1 possession, or would you rather have your team take the quick open shot available, play defense, and secure the final possession ala go two-for-one?

Does your stance change if it's an elimination game/game 7 in a playoff series?

More-Than-Most
11-26-2017, 07:31 AM
depends on how good my teams defense is.... who i have as a superstar and who the other team is.... if i am going against the warriors and i have a superstar than yes i am going 2 for 1 because they will likely score anyway so i might as well try to win it over not losing it./

KnicksorBust
11-26-2017, 07:53 AM
2 for 1 definitely. It only takes a few seconds to set up an inbounds play or a basic pick and roll. No reason to milk it and give my opponent last shot. Not to be rude but why would you want to wait?

KnicksorBust
11-26-2017, 07:55 AM
depends on how good my teams defense is.... who i have as a superstar and who the other team is.... if i am going against the warriors and i have a superstar than yes i am going 2 for 1 because they will likely score anyway so i might as well try to win it over not losing it./

I think it only depends on how many timeouts I have. If I can advance the ball I def go 2 for 1. Even if I can't I am strongly leaning 2 for 1.

warfelg
11-26-2017, 08:52 AM
I think it only depends on how many timeouts I have. If I can advance the ball I def go 2 for 1. Even if I can't I am strongly leaning 2 for 1.

For me I think it depends on how clean that first look is and what type of 2 for 1 are we talking. Is there :40 left or :31 sec? If you need to sub or not.

KnicksorBust
11-26-2017, 09:10 AM
I think it only depends on how many timeouts I have. If I can advance the ball I def go 2 for 1. Even if I can't I am strongly leaning 2 for 1.

For me I think it depends on how clean that first look is and what type of 2 for 1 are we talking. Is there :40 left or :31 sec? If you need to sub or not.

I am basing it off the 36 seconds he said. I coach and every in bounds play we have is meant to get a shot within 6 seconds. I feel like NBA caliber players can get a decent if not very good shot off in the same amount.

warfelg
11-26-2017, 09:17 AM
I am basing it off the 36 seconds he said. I coach and every in bounds play we have is meant to get a shot within 6 seconds. I feel like NBA caliber players can get a decent if not very good shot off in the same amount.

True, but sometimes the defense does something you don't expect. :36 though I go 2-for-1 every time. I think the 2-for-1 question has quite a few answers and way too many variables. Like you said; do I have a TO, does it advance; I also question are you in the bonus, are they in the bonus, can you get a sub in (I guess that goes with the TO thing), how clean is your first look, and a few other things in my head.

IndyRealist
11-26-2017, 10:28 AM
If you go two for one you could
A) fail to score, the game is still tied, and you have another possession coming
B) fail to score, get the offensive rebound, and can now run out the clock on the final possession
C) score, and be up 2 or 3 with another possession coming

If A happens, you're in no worse shape than if you played out the full shot clock. You got one more possession, the opponent got one. The other two scenarios favor you.

tredigs
11-26-2017, 11:53 AM
I can not think of any scenario where not going for the 2 for 1 is the correct answer. Yet there are still a relatively large amount of points/coaches who **** that up.

Scoots
11-26-2017, 12:01 PM
Always always always go for the 2 for 1 when it's available.

warfelg
11-26-2017, 12:16 PM
I can not think of any scenario where not going for the 2 for 1 is the correct answer. Yet there are still a relatively large amount of points/coaches who **** that up.

Your team has been on a run, is stout defensively, and is at home. Is one of the multiple I can think of.

Like take your team. The Warriors playing a struggling Hawks at GS. Wouldn't it make sense to take up the clock, run it to 0:11 left, and say your anemic offense can't score on our strong defense, especially if they've been 0-for 3 minutes?

Scoots
11-26-2017, 12:54 PM
Your team has been on a run, is stout defensively, and is at home. Is one of the multiple I can think of.

Like take your team. The Warriors playing a struggling Hawks at GS. Wouldn't it make sense to take up the clock, run it to 0:11 left, and say your anemic offense can't score on our strong defense, especially if they've been 0-for 3 minutes?

Would you rather have Curry take 2 3 point shots against scrambling defense or just 1 against a stacked defense that has a pretty good idea what's coming?

warfelg
11-26-2017, 12:56 PM
Would you rather have Curry take 2 3 point shots against scrambling defense or just 1 against a stacked defense that has a pretty good idea what's coming?

TBH with Curry I'm fine with either. Also just because you aren't going for the 2-for-1 doesn't mean the defense is stacked and knows whats coming.

KnicksorBust
11-26-2017, 01:02 PM
I can not think of any scenario where not going for the 2 for 1 is the correct answer. Yet there are still a relatively large amount of points/coaches who **** that up.

If it was 30 seconds with no timeouts?

mngopher35
11-26-2017, 01:06 PM
Take the 2 for one

Scoots
11-26-2017, 01:19 PM
TBH with Curry I'm fine with either. Also just because you aren't going for the 2-for-1 doesn't mean the defense is stacked and knows whats coming.

The scenario was go for a 2 for 1 or back it out and run the clock down ... that sounds like a set defense is what you'll be facing, and I was thinking of the OP's 7 game series situation where everybody knows pretty much what everybody runs by situation and personnel.

Scoots
11-26-2017, 01:20 PM
If it was 30 seconds with no timeouts?

OP said 36 seconds. But sure ... if there are 25 seconds left, don't go for the 2 for 1 :)

warfelg
11-26-2017, 01:44 PM
The scenario was go for a 2 for 1 or back it out and run the clock down ... that sounds like a set defense is what you'll be facing, and I was thinking of the OP's 7 game series situation where everybody knows pretty much what everybody runs by situation and personnel.

Seems as though he's thinking a quite specific situation rather than in general. To me there's so much and it goes case by case.

Scoots
11-26-2017, 01:57 PM
Seems as though he's thinking a quite specific situation rather than in general. To me there's so much and it goes case by case.

True enough ... I suppose I wouldn't want Boban Marjanovic going 2 for 1 with the ball at half court with 36 seconds left on the clock.

tredigs
11-26-2017, 02:01 PM
If it was 30 seconds with no timeouts?

Well OP is saying a true 2 for 1. If you're inbounding with 30 seconds (or even shooting) that's a different scenario. You do need 7-8 seconds left for the team to get a reasonable look.

@warfeg, you still absolutely should not throw away the extra possession in that scenario.

Side point, when down 2 with the last shot, you should almost always be taking the 3 unless it's a layup. Teams also continue to **** this up (by and large taking a highly contested 2 and losing when their best case scenario is just more game time. This also has adverse effects for their following game even if they do make the shot).

mightybosstone
11-26-2017, 02:10 PM
You shoot for the 2 for 1. But if the play falls apart, and the shooter can't get a clean look, then you have to go to Plan B and get the best possible shot that possession. I'm all for getting the 2 for 1, but I hate it when guys chuck up contested 30-footers with 18 seconds left on the shot clock and 30+ seconds left in the game.

lol, please
11-26-2017, 02:29 PM
Got into a nice debate with a coworker today. As the title and scenario states:

Game is tied in the 4th, your team has possession on offense with about ~36 seconds (time could be anything that would entail a two-for-one) on the game clock with the full shot clock. Would you rather have your team milk the clock, try to run a set play, and ultimately play for 1 possession, or would you rather have your team take the quick open shot available, play defense, and secure the final possession ala go two-for-one?

Does your stance change if it's an elimination game/game 7 in a playoff series?2 for 1, but my team is the Warriors who have the best shooters and elite defense. Depends on your players and opponents as well.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

warfelg
11-26-2017, 02:33 PM
True enough ... I suppose I wouldn't want Boban Marjanovic going 2 for 1 with the ball at half court with 36 seconds left on the clock.

I'll be honest too, and why its a situation thing:

Going 2-for-1 is a given. But really it should be go for the easy bucket (like a layup) with the first one. Try to draw contact too so the clock is on your side. Basically go for the 2 with the first one.

Then the pressure is on the other side. Go for 2 or 3? Do they try to get the easy tie, then hope to shut you down defensively, force the game into OT? Or do they go for 3, go up 1, force you to have to make something to win and take OT off the table?

I tend to side with going for 2 on the first possession, where some say go for 3, because with the last chance you are the one afford a miss and still have a chance.

KnicksorBust
11-26-2017, 02:51 PM
If it was 30 seconds with no timeouts?

OP said 36 seconds. But sure ... if there are 25 seconds left, don't go for the 2 for 1 :)

What is the tipping point?

KnicksorBust
11-26-2017, 02:53 PM
If it was 30 seconds with no timeouts?

Well OP is saying a true 2 for 1. If you're inbounding with 30 seconds (or even shooting) that's a different scenario. You do need 7-8 seconds left for the team to get a reasonable look.

@warfeg, you still absolutely should not throw away the extra possession in that scenario.

Side point, when down 2 with the last shot, you should almost always be taking the 3 unless it's a layup. Teams also continue to **** this up (by and large taking a highly contested 2 and losing when their best case scenario is just more game time. This also has adverse effects for their following game even if they do make the shot).

Should have quoted you as well. What do you think is the tipping point?

Giannis94
11-26-2017, 03:15 PM
Giannis. Can score and guard anyone.

mightybosstone
11-26-2017, 03:39 PM
Giannis. Can score and guard anyone.

:laugh: This is the epitome of homerism. You read the title and immediately responded with your homer answer without actually reading the thread or understanding what OP was talking about. Pretty shameful, dude... :pity:

Meth
11-26-2017, 05:39 PM
Interesting responses. I am an advocate of going 2-for-1 every time; however, if the scenario becomes 30 seconds or so, I'd be hesitant of my team just chucking up a shot for the sake of a 2-for-1. I mention this because if it's game 7 of a playoff series(31 seconds), I'm more 50-50 on going two-for-one considering that I'd rather get a good shot than a chucked pull-up jumper... perhaps playing for 1 possession instead.

like one of the posts above states: what would be the tipping point for going/not going 2-for-1?

warfelg
11-26-2017, 05:45 PM
Interesting responses. I am an advocate of going 2-for-1 every time; however, if the scenario becomes 30 seconds or so, I'd be hesitant of my team just chucking up a shot for the sake of a 2-for-1. I mention this because if it's game 7 of a playoff series(31 seconds), I'm more 50-50 on going two-for-one considering that I'd rather get a good shot than a chucked pull-up jumper... perhaps playing for 1 possession instead.

like one of the posts above states: what would be the tipping point for going/not going 2-for-1?

For me:
Road team in the playoffs.

Take your time to go for the 2, make them work to tie or win.

LOb0
11-26-2017, 08:27 PM
I'm trying to get the best shot available. 2 for 1's are often guys just jacking up a horrible shot.

IndyRealist
11-26-2017, 10:18 PM
I'm trying to get the best shot available. 2 for 1's are often guys just jacking up a horrible shot.

The two for one is essentially a free shot where the defense doesn't have time to set up.

warfelg
11-26-2017, 10:34 PM
I'm trying to get the best shot available. 2 for 1's are often guys just jacking up a horrible shot.

Good coaches have a 2-for-1 play that their team knows and should automatically go to.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-26-2017, 10:44 PM
12 seconds is more than enough time to set up a good play.

Scoots
11-26-2017, 11:59 PM
Curry is the most aggressive on chasing 2 for 1 that I've ever seen. He seems to always know and as soon as the ball is inbounded he's at full speed and usually get the shot up before the defense even knows he's running.

If it was Zaza doing it I'd still be for it for the first shot ... but the 2nd shot should definitely be by one of your best offensive weapons.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-27-2017, 12:09 AM
What is the tipping point?

28 seconds is when you release the shot. Give about 2 seconds from when you release to the rebound and there's 26 seconds left for the other team if you miss. By that point, their play will probably require using most of the clock and they will shoot with like 5 seconds on their shot clock. That would give you 2-7 seconds to get the final shot.

Jamiecballer
11-27-2017, 03:02 AM
I'm trying to get the best shot available. 2 for 1's are often guys just jacking up a horrible shot.

I'm with you

KnicksorBust
11-27-2017, 07:14 AM
What is the tipping point?

28 seconds is when you release the shot. Give about 2 seconds from when you release to the rebound and there's 26 seconds left for the other team if you miss. By that point, their play will probably require using most of the clock and they will shoot with like 5 seconds on their shot clock. That would give you 2-7 seconds to get the final shot.

I disagree. Even in your scenario my team might only have 2-3 seconds to get off a shot. Raps do you really feel like that 2nd possession will be useful? I think you gotta shoot by 30 and that is why 32 seconds is probably the least amount of time remaining you could pull off a successful 2 for 1 where both shots are decent.

tredigs
11-27-2017, 12:18 PM
Should have quoted you as well. What do you think is the tipping point?
Without thinking too much on it right now, leaving 7- 8 seconds (so shooting by the ~35 second mark) is right around where you should be for a useful 2nd possession.

I still have not seen anybody attempt a compelling argument against it. Curious if you have one? I know you coach and would like the input of why you're against it if so.

KnicksorBust
11-27-2017, 12:48 PM
Without thinking too much on it right now, leaving 7- 8 seconds (so shooting by the ~35 second mark) is right around where you should be for a useful 2nd possession.

I still have not seen anybody attempt a compelling argument against it. Curious if you have one? I know you coach and would like the input of why you're against it if so.

It's funny actually because in high school we don't have a shot clock so teams can stall with any lead at any time. I've started killing the clock during important games with about 3 minutes left. We run a play called "21 down yellow" where you set repeated down screens with dribble hand-offs unless the defense doubles and gives you a layup. In regards to the college or NBA game I don't see a reason you would ever give up the 2 for 1 intentionally. I definitely don't buy into that "on the road..." theory either. At home vs. on the road doesn't matter to me.

The only issue would be if I have a time-out or not. That would determine if I felt comfortable we could get a quality 2nd shot up in time. With no ability to stop the clock I don't think 30 seconds is enough time to get up a shot, play defense, rebound, make an outlet pass and get another quality shot. If there is more time left, or I have a time-out then, to me, it's a no brainer.

Giannis94
11-27-2017, 01:03 PM
:laugh: This is the epitome of homerism. You read the title and immediately responded with your homer answer without actually reading the thread or understanding what OP was talking about. Pretty shameful, dude... :pity:

But there's a catch. Giannis is a 2 for 1. Talent and skill of 2+ players into 1

Hawkeye15
11-27-2017, 02:44 PM
I can not think of any scenario where not going for the 2 for 1 is the correct answer. Yet there are still a relatively large amount of points/coaches who **** that up.

the ONLY way you don't, is if it's a completely wasted shot to get the 2 for 1. Outside that, yeah, I am not sure why anyone would not go for it

Hawkeye15
11-27-2017, 02:45 PM
You shoot for the 2 for 1. But if the play falls apart, and the shooter can't get a clean look, then you have to go to Plan B and get the best possible shot that possession. I'm all for getting the 2 for 1, but I hate it when guys chuck up contested 30-footers with 18 seconds left on the shot clock and 30+ seconds left in the game.

wish I had just keep reading. This is exactly my viewpoint on this question

kdspurman
11-27-2017, 03:54 PM
Where you have possession matters too. If you're in-bounding the ball in the half court out of a timeout, then you most likely have drawn something up to get a quick/good shot. If it's off the other team scoring and you're bringing it up full court, possibly against pressure, then that's where you could say getting the best shot available vs a 2 for 1 makes more sense.

2 for 1 is def option A in my mind tho

Scoots
11-27-2017, 04:48 PM
Where you have possession matters too. If you're in-bounding the ball in the half court out of a timeout, then you most likely have drawn something up to get a quick/good shot. If it's off the other team scoring and you're bringing it up full court, possibly against pressure, then that's where you could say getting the best shot available vs a 2 for 1 makes more sense.

2 for 1 is def option A in my mind tho

I would say the opposite. Full court without the timeout means you have a chance to get the quick shot against non set defense. Coming out of a timeout you could do it too for sure, but all the matchups will be set and tendencies will be more expected.

warfelg
11-27-2017, 04:57 PM
I would say the opposite. Full court without the timeout means you have a chance to get the quick shot against non set defense. Coming out of a timeout you could do it too for sure, but all the matchups will be set and tendencies will be more expected.

Counter here is the defense isn't set, but neither is your offense or rebounding.

kdspurman
11-27-2017, 05:01 PM
I would say the opposite. Full court without the timeout means you have a chance to get the quick shot against non set defense. Coming out of a timeout you could do it too for sure, but all the matchups will be set and tendencies will be more expected.

It depends.. not all teams can handle pressure well. If you've got a good coach and players who can execute, you can get the shot you want out of a timeout.

If you go without timeouts, of course it can work out well. But like I said if the other team applies pressure and it takes you 3-4 seconds to get into the half court, that's when it can become a situation where the shot is rushed and/or the play breaks down.

Scoots
11-27-2017, 11:43 PM
It depends.. not all teams can handle pressure well. If you've got a good coach and players who can execute, you can get the shot you want out of a timeout.

If you go without timeouts, of course it can work out well. But like I said if the other team applies pressure and it takes you 3-4 seconds to get into the half court, that's when it can become a situation where the shot is rushed and/or the play breaks down.

Yes, you need smart enough players to know when the quick shot is not going to be worth it or too much time has elapsed.