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View Full Version : How good do you think this starting lineup would be?



valade16
11-14-2017, 05:12 PM
How good do you think this starting lineup would do given a competent bench?

PG: Patrick Beverely
SG: Kris Middleton
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Draymond Green
C: Steven Adams


All of these players are very good defensively and considered excellent or elite glue guys. Additionally, all of them have generally very good advanced stats. So how well would this cast of elite "role players" do?

Giannis94
11-14-2017, 05:27 PM
Top 3 in the east? I think this team could cause issues for the cavs. But im not sure the cavs are top 3 anymore. Celtics are probably better. bucks are better. ORL and DET? IDK

Rain City
11-14-2017, 05:30 PM
i like the question. i think they would have elite defense and prolly keep the opposing team under 90 ppg. but i doubt they could make the playoffs. role players are great but its a superstar league.

this would be a terribly easy team to defend. who would you double team? who is going to make plays? green isn't going to have the assist numbers on this team. he's a great D player but offensively he is very limited & found his niche with elite shooters.

they are not fast turning turnovers, rebounds to transition points. the offense would be average shooters chucking contested 3s and crashing offensive boards, or tap outs to open 3s.

i love all these players, i don't think this team sniffs the playoffs unless they have the one of the best benches in basketball.

Vee-Rex
11-14-2017, 05:46 PM
At best they're a tough regular season team. Playoffs is a different beast.

mngopher35
11-14-2017, 05:59 PM
I think it is probably a playoff team but it wouldn't be a true contender. Let's say right around the Memphis range as a team?

I think it has can be a top 5 defense with a likely bottom 10 offense (last year Memphis was 7th and 19th). While they don't have any sort of elite offensive talent they do have spacing and Beverly/Green/Middleton can each carry some load there (scoring and passing). If they had a 6th man scorer off the bench it would definitely help though.

mightybosstone
11-14-2017, 06:26 PM
That's a 45-win team and a 6-8 seed at best and a 30-win team at worst. Sure, it's elite defensively, but there's no one remotely close to being considered a go-to scorer. With the irrational confidence/competitiveness of guys like Beverley and Green, they might each shoot 20+ times a night, which could be a recipe for disaster.

Scoots
11-14-2017, 06:33 PM
I think they'd probably be the top defensive team ... but there would have to be a LOT of game growth from them on offense.

valade16
11-14-2017, 06:44 PM
Do we not think that Middleton, Green and Covington would be able to increase their scoring output to offset their supposed lack of offense?

mightybosstone
11-14-2017, 07:10 PM
Do we not think that Middleton, Green and Covington would be able to increase their scoring output to offset their supposed lack of offense?

They would have to. There'd be too many possessions to go around for them not to. But those guys just aren't skilled enough offensively to think that their efficiency wouldn't take a hit. There would be a ton of contested jumpers on this team and a lot of turnovers.

Beverley's sample size so far in LA is a great example. He's averaging more minutes with the Clippers than he did in Houston, where he was expected to do much less offensively. And he's taking more shots, so of course he's scoring more points. But with that additional production has come a 1.8 percent dropoff in TS% and 1.7 percent increase in TO%, and his advanced stats are down pretty much across the board.

Middleton has seen an even greater dropoff in efficiency this season with him having an increased role in the offense due to Parker's absence. He's taking nearly five more shots per game than last season, but scoring only three more points per game with a 6+ percent dropoff in TS%.

Vee-Rex
11-14-2017, 07:22 PM
I just don't think well-balanced offenses succeed in today's playoff atmosphere. Young, fresh legs tend to energize teams for stretches of time in the regular season, but that's it.

Well balanced offenses tend to get shut down in the playoffs, then outscored by more potent, star-laden offenses. A huge part of defense is effort, and in the playoffs you better believe even the not-so-good defensive players will be going all out. You can't "effort" your way into an effective offense.

KnicksorBust
11-14-2017, 07:29 PM
If they are healthy AND they had a year together to build chemistry, that team is a contender.

mngopher35
11-14-2017, 07:35 PM
If they are healthy AND they had a year together to build chemistry, that team is a contender.

You forgot to add the word Playoff before contender

Shammyguy3
11-14-2017, 07:39 PM
Borderline 50-win team. It has shooting, passing, and elite defense. They would win a lot of low-scoring games, and lose a few high-scoring games when other teams are shooting on fire and they are missing their shots.

Middleton/Green combine for 40 points as the 1a and 1b options

LA4life24/8
11-14-2017, 07:40 PM
Thats basically a slight better current jazz team. Elite defensively but who's carrying the scoring load here?

None of these guys are a #1 (or really a solid #2) scoring option. Come playoffs theyd be a tough out but they couldn't score enough to beat the elite offensive teams.

Heediot
11-14-2017, 07:44 PM
first round fodder. 50 wins in the regular season is possible.

mngopher35
11-14-2017, 07:46 PM
I just don't think well-balanced offenses succeed in today's playoff atmosphere. Young, fresh legs tend to energize teams for stretches of time in the regular season, but that's it.

Well balanced offenses tend to get shut down in the playoffs, then outscored by more potent, star-laden offenses. A huge part of defense is effort, and in the playoffs you better believe even the not-so-good defensive players will be going all out. You can't "effort" your way into an effective offense.

Ya I agree with your take. I don't think they could have too much playoff success but in the RS I think their grind it out'ness will help to get a good record. Defense/ability to switch are obviously the strength and offensively 3 point shot to at least keep things spaced to run a system with 4 players who can attack on a possession even if not elite.

Take Atlanta in the east for example. Milsap/Horford and Teague/Korver/Carrol. No go to superstar and they were a top 10 offense (so they won't be the worst offense, maybe aim for 15 range RS). When it came time to face Lebron (even with injuries) Atlanta just wasn't close to a real star like that but it can be effective in 82 game season.

ewing
11-14-2017, 09:35 PM
.500 team


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warfelg
11-14-2017, 10:04 PM
They would be nice defensively but struggle a good deal offensively. Not a single guy there creates his own shot.

IndyRealist
11-14-2017, 10:37 PM
What advanced metrics rank Middleton highly when he's shooting 30.6% from 3?

smith&wesson
11-15-2017, 01:21 AM
They would need Eric Gordon and Lue Williams off the bench for scoring

mrblisterdundee
11-15-2017, 02:10 AM
How good do you think this starting lineup would do given a competent bench?

PG: Patrick Beverely
SG: Kris Middleton
SF: Robert Covington
PF: Draymond Green
C: Steven Adams
All of these players are very good defensively and considered excellent or elite glue guys. Additionally, all of them have generally very good advanced stats. So how well would this cast of elite "role players" do?

That's a pretty good starting five, but what's their bench like? Without a decent bench, they'll be too gassed to do well in the playoffs.
They're good defensively, but that defense will slip as they have to expend more energy on offense. We've already seen this with guys like Jimmy and Kahwi.

Chronz
11-15-2017, 07:55 AM
I think it is probably a playoff team but it wouldn't be a true contender. Let's say right around the Memphis range as a team?

I think it has can be a top 5 defense with a likely bottom 10 offense (last year Memphis was 7th and 19th). While they don't have any sort of elite offensive talent they do have spacing and Beverly/Green/Middleton can each carry some load there (scoring and passing). If they had a 6th man scorer off the bench it would definitely help though.

Surely you jest, that's a ducking historic defense

Chronz
11-15-2017, 08:03 AM
50 wins is a decent estimate but I wager that's the floor here

PAOboston
11-15-2017, 08:29 AM
There's like zero shot creators in the lineup. They could be great defensively but would have series offensive issues.

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Raidaz4Life
11-15-2017, 08:57 AM
I think it largely depends who is coaching honestly. I think Pop could win a championship with that lineup

Scoots
11-15-2017, 10:34 AM
There's like zero shot creators in the lineup. They could be great defensively but would have series offensive issues.

I think with modern offenses the creator idea is not as important as a shot maker and that's where that offense would struggle. For the majority of possessions moving the ball and the players being in constant motion creates the shots ... but someone has to hit them. There are always some iso shots of course and you are right that group would struggle there.

warfelg
11-15-2017, 10:43 AM
I think with modern offenses the creator idea is not as important as a shot maker and that's where that offense would struggle. For the majority of possessions moving the ball and the players being in constant motion creates the shots ... but someone has to hit them. There are always some iso shots of course and you are right that group would struggle there.

I think where this would really struggle is other than Green, these are all guys that usually it's a "if you possess it throw it up". They can pass and keep it moving, but for a guy like RoCo and Adams, their forte isn't taking it and breaking down the guy in front of them.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-15-2017, 11:47 AM
Middleton is a streaky shooter at the beginning of the season. Then gets heated up end of the year to make up for the beginning of the season slumps. But man not so sure I want Middleton on his next contract. His final year is player option and will opt out. I'm hoping Bucks cash in and get a younger guy on rookie deal that can put up near 20 a night like Warren or Kuzma or Brown. Wishful thinking on my part. But no way we can keep Parker and Middleton on their next deals. Unless we can dump Delly or Henson or Teletovic.

KnicksorBust
11-15-2017, 12:27 PM
Do we not think that Middleton, Green and Covington would be able to increase their scoring output to offset their supposed lack of offense?

Yes. The best offenses don't rely on iso scoring. Those are the types of players that would be constantly screening, cutting, and moving the ball. Their offense would be about hitting open shots and finishing. They wouldn't be elite offensively but they would be elite defensively. The Jazz last year won 51 games with that formula. This group of 5 is better than last year's Jazz.

Scoots
11-15-2017, 12:32 PM
I think where this would really struggle is other than Green, these are all guys that usually it's a "if you possess it throw it up". They can pass and keep it moving, but for a guy like RoCo and Adams, their forte isn't taking it and breaking down the guy in front of them.

This is the sort of stuff I was talking about that we'd need to see what skills develop to fill the vacuum. We know shooters will shoot as often as they feel they can get away with it, so I think how these 5 team guys develop is what's really interesting, and not possible to predict. I suppose we should assign a coach to this group to be even able to speculate how their games would change.

Giannis94
11-15-2017, 12:34 PM
Is there reason to think that Middleton couldn't be like a Michael Redd type of player? A defacto #1 option that scores as a result of the team around him? On a contender, what Redd would have been a #3? I dunno. you guys tell me

Heediot
11-15-2017, 12:46 PM
Replace Beverly with Chauncey and you got a legit squad that can make noise. He'll bring that craftiness, galvanizing floor general game.

KnicksorBust
11-15-2017, 12:56 PM
Replace Beverly with Chauncey and you got a legit squad that can make noise. He'll bring that craftiness, galvanizing floor general game.

You are cheating. Chauncey is too good offensively. It's Mr. 94 Feet at PG.

D-Leethal
11-15-2017, 02:14 PM
35-40 wins

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-15-2017, 02:31 PM
Is there reason to think that Middleton couldn't be like a Michael Redd type of player? A defacto #1 option that scores as a result of the team around him? On a contender, what Redd would have been a #3? I dunno. you guys tell me

Redd was a beast when healthy. Middleton to streaky for my liking's. I hate to see Middleton's next contract. I'd use Middleton as a trade piece towards Clippers Jordan if they bottom out. Figure something has to give since we now got Bledsoe. Brogdon 6th man. Plus Snell has a new contract. Parker be back in February Its a nice problem to have. But eventually something has to give. Only other way to fix the problem is small ball death line up of more Giannis playing some center in stretches. Move Middleton to small ball PF.

Jamiecballer
11-15-2017, 02:47 PM
That's a 45-win team and a 6-8 seed at best and a 30-win team at worst. Sure, it's elite defensively, but there's no one remotely close to being considered a go-to scorer. With the irrational confidence/competitiveness of guys like Beverley and Green, they might each shoot 20+ times a night, which could be a recipe for disaster.

I agree. This team better have a lot of weapons off the bench, otherwise you are looking at the 2001 76ers without Iverson. Yuck.

KnicksorBust
11-15-2017, 03:51 PM
I agree. This team better have a lot of weapons off the bench, otherwise you are looking at the 2001 76ers without Iverson. Yuck.

Except every single offensive player on this team is better offensively than every single teammate of Iverson's. And Iverson's offense was inefficient. ;)

Chronz
11-15-2017, 07:18 PM
Redd was a beast when healthy. Middleton to streaky for my liking's. I hate to see Middleton's next contract. I'd use Middleton as a trade piece towards Clippers Jordan if they bottom out. Figure something has to give since we now got Bledsoe. Brogdon 6th man. Plus Snell has a new contract. Parker be back in February Its a nice problem to have. But eventually something has to give. Only other way to fix the problem is small ball death line up of more Giannis playing some center in stretches. Move Middleton to small ball PF.

Its what I did in my clippers gm

mightybosstone
11-15-2017, 07:42 PM
50 wins is a decent estimate but I wager that's the floor here

The floor? That's interesting to me. Why do you think that? Do you think a team with that many willing passers and team-first mentalities would necessarily still be able to thrive offensively? Or do you anticipate that they would be so strong defensively that nobody would be able to score on them?

I just see this very differently. Good defense has been a key component of damn near every champion in NBA history. But you've got to have 1-2 go-to offensive threats to generate offense when nobody's hitting shots. And great offense from a superstar can and will beat the defense of the best defender. I just don't think there's enough talent and shotmaking ability on this roster to win more than 45 games tops.

Jamiecballer
11-17-2017, 03:34 PM
Except every single offensive player on this team is better offensively than every single teammate of Iverson's. And Iverson's offense was inefficient. ;)
Dynamic is still the same, that team would be dreadful offensively.

sixer04fan
11-17-2017, 03:42 PM
It looks an overachieving regaular season team that would be destined to nderperform in the playoffs. Like a 50-60 win team that gets a second round playoff exit.

Well rounded, great defense, but no alpha stars and no one that can consistently create their own shot/offense.

Kind of like those Hawks teams from a few years ago.

Giannis94
11-17-2017, 04:48 PM
It looks an overachieving regaular season team that would be destined to nderperform in the playoffs. Like a 50-60 win team that gets a second round playoff exit.

Well rounded, great defense, but no alpha stars and no one that can consistently create their own shot/offense.

Kind of like those Hawks teams from a few years ago.

So like, the Raptors?

mightybosstone
11-17-2017, 04:51 PM
It looks an overachieving regaular season team that would be destined to nderperform in the playoffs. Like a 50-60 win team that gets a second round playoff exit.

Well rounded, great defense, but no alpha stars and no one that can consistently create their own shot/offense.

Kind of like those Hawks teams from a few years ago.

No way this roster comes close to 60 wins.

PurpleLynch
11-17-2017, 05:48 PM
Smart
Gordon
Iguodala
Randolph
Dedmon

Maybe with this bench they could arrive in a semi and just maybe to a conference Finals?

Jeffy25
11-18-2017, 03:08 AM
My separate question is, would these guys have the effort to push on offense and defense where they need to?

LOb0
11-18-2017, 03:59 AM
This is an offensive league now. That team would be a disaster on the offensive end. Draymond wouldn't be so good without elite shooters around him.

Heediot
11-18-2017, 07:46 AM
It looks an overachieving regaular season team that would be destined to nderperform in the playoffs. Like a 50-60 win team that gets a second round playoff exit.

Well rounded, great defense, but no alpha stars and no one that can consistently create their own shot/offense.

Kind of like those Hawks teams from a few years ago.

Even then they had Milsap and Teague is somewhat capable of creating something.

XshaqattackX
11-18-2017, 12:02 PM
If Pop was coaching this team (especially in the east) that's at least a second seed team.
Brad Stevens would probably make that team a 3rd or 4th.

A team like this can range from being the worst to one of the best depending on the coach

IndyRealist
11-18-2017, 02:19 PM
Replace Middleton with Klay, how do people feel about them then?

hugepatsfan
11-18-2017, 02:26 PM
They'd be a great regular season team if they had a good offensive system. There's no elite one on one scorer there but they have a bunch of good players that can shoot/move the ball.

That team is too overkill on defense to really compete though. I think if you replaced Beverly with someone like Kemba Walker to give them some more shot creation then it'd pay huuuuuuuge dividends. And then if you added a scoring 6th man like say Evan Fournier... that team could be a real problem IMO with a great coach.

warfelg
11-18-2017, 02:27 PM
Replace Middleton with Klay, how do people feel about them then?

I think if Mike Conley replaced Patrick Beverly I would like it more.

Chronz
11-18-2017, 02:32 PM
Replace Middleton with Klay, how do people feel about them then?

Lol I think I know where you're going with this, I had a similar thought

hugepatsfan
11-18-2017, 02:40 PM
I think if Mike Conley replaced Patrick Beverly I would like it more.

I said Kemba above because I think that team needs his scoring ability more than Conley's all around offense. But yeah, Conly would certainly make them better.

They just have too much overkill with two 3 and D guys in RoCO/Beverly and then Middleton who is a little more than just 3 and D but not a go-to scorer either. They need to replace RoCo or Beverly with a guy that can get you buckets when plays break down. And then they need a 6th man they can put in the lineup for Adams (w/ Green sliding to the 5) for small ball and close out lineups.

Heediot
11-18-2017, 02:40 PM
Replace Middleton with Klay, how do people feel about them then?

I trust Middleton's handles and ability to create more, that's just me.

warfelg
11-18-2017, 02:44 PM
I said Kemba above because I think that team needs his scoring ability more than Conley's all around offense. But yeah, Conly would certainly make them better.

They just have too much overkill with two 3 and D guys in RoCO/Beverly and then Middleton who is a little more than just 3 and D but not a go-to scorer either. They need to replace RoCo or Beverly with a guy that can get you buckets when plays break down. And then they need a 6th man they can put in the lineup for Adams (w/ Green sliding to the 5) for small ball and close out lineups.

I said Conley because I was trying to not compromise the idea of defense first.

In fact, rejigging this team into an actual good team:
Conley-Beverly
KThompson-Bradley
Leonard-RoCo
Greaan-?
Adams-Baynes

eDush
11-18-2017, 03:09 PM
Top 3 in the east? I think this team could cause issues for the cavs. But im not sure the cavs are top 3 anymore. Celtics are probably better. bucks are better. ORL and DET? IDKCavs will always be a top 3 in the East with Lebron, trust me :nod:

Chronz
11-18-2017, 04:09 PM
The floor? That's interesting to me. Why do you think that? Do you think a team with that many willing passers and team-first mentalities would necessarily still be able to thrive offensively? Or do you anticipate that they would be so strong defensively that nobody would be able to score on them?

I just see this very differently. Good defense has been a key component of damn near every champion in NBA history. But you've got to have 1-2 go-to offensive threats to generate offense when nobody's hitting shots. And great offense from a superstar can and will beat the defense of the best defender. I just don't think there's enough talent and shotmaking ability on this roster to win more than 45 games tops.

With a defense that good, I don't think they need to thrive all that much offensively.

Definitely not winning a chip but that's a decent team in many years. 44 wins is prolly the floor tho with like 55 the best case scenario.

Like we got a transcendent DPOY, 2 oversized elite 3 and D guys, likely the best pg defender today and a rugged yet relatively nimble anchor behind them all. How many teams have ever wielded such defensive talent? I'd wager very few, and with that being the case they are all but assured of going .500 . Only way they don't is if their offense is equally bad historically and look at the talent THOSE teams had, hell, maybe RoCo was a part of one. Those guys wished they had this many efficient players, there is no way this team is THAT bad offensively. So I give them a downright dominant defense and more credit offensively than most and I see 50 wins easy(given health) . Add a great bench and you could be looking at a post Melo Denver esque contender that ultimately declines in the post season

IndyRealist
11-18-2017, 05:49 PM
I said Conley because I was trying to not compromise the idea of defense first.

In fact, rejigging this team into an actual good team:
Conley-Beverly
KThompson-Bradley
Leonard-RoCo
Greaan-?
Adams-Baynes

Dunno how I feel about Baynes, but that team is terrifying.