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mngopher35
11-08-2017, 06:40 PM
Hmmm so we are placing drob despite not winning?

Honestly I think kg is better than drob and they are pretty similar. Not sure how he wouldn't go here to people who voted drob already...

mrblisterdundee
11-08-2017, 06:41 PM
Oscar Robertson and David Robinson took the 14th and 15th spots, respectively, last round. This round, I added Bob Petit and Jason Kidd, ranked 34th and 35th, respectively, by ESPN's #NBArank (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160201/all-nbarank-31-35). Voting lasts two days.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Magic Johnson
8. Larry Bird
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Bill Russell
11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. David Robinson

mrblisterdundee
11-08-2017, 06:45 PM
Hmmm so we are placing drob despite not winning?

Honestly I think kg is better than drob and they are pretty similar. Not sure how he wouldn't go here to people who voted drob already...

I already said whoever came in second in the tiebreaker would be 15th.

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 06:52 PM
Hmmm so we are placing drob despite not winning?

Honestly I think kg is better than drob and they are pretty similar. Not sure how he wouldn't go here to people who voted drob already...

I already said whoever came in second in the tiebreaker would be 15th.

I mean it's fine, I am just saying.

With drob off the board I really don't see how kg doesn't go ASAP. They have similar flaws etc with drops in individual post season play but kg probably had less help and when it comes to stats like rapm kg only falls behind only lebron (not even Duncan) since 2000.

I don't think drob should be quite this early but him going makes it very hard for me to not see kg as the obvious choice here.

GREATNESS ONE
11-08-2017, 06:53 PM
Eww Robinson at 15 is gross. Lol

valade16
11-08-2017, 06:54 PM
Leaning KG or D-Wade here, trying to talk myself into Dirk.

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 07:11 PM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0

RAPM link over a 15 year period but no djustment to age (so Shaq is like 13 on the list but it doesn't account for half the time being end of his career). Same way KG is 2nd on the list without similar consideration post knee injury (09), he was just that impactful individually even afterwards yet he is still right behind Lebron.

Like Drob KG has DPOY and MVP awards and like was mentioned he was in a worse position even in comparison (Twolves have quite literally never made the playoffs without KG). 5 more all star appearances. Won a title as the best player while Drob had TD outperforming. On/off numbers help show KG's dominance and clear lack of help in comparison.

Chronz
11-08-2017, 08:00 PM
I mean it's fine, I am just saying.

With drob off the board I really don't see how kg doesn't go ASAP. They have similar flaws etc with drops in individual post season play but kg probably had less help and when it comes to stats like rapm kg only falls behind only lebron (not even Duncan) since 2000.

I don't think drob should be quite this early but him going makes it very hard for me to not see kg as the obvious choice here.

Agreed. Kgs viable if Drob is the standard. Very similar flaws in their face up oriented style in eras with the most dominant post up bigs. Both would be better off today, maybe idk rambling at this point.

Going wade cuz he's the only guy you could say if he remained even abit healthy, could have vaulted into the true upper echelon. For now he has to settle for having one of the most dominant rs and ps, certainly greater than drob n kg for the simple reason he had superstar traits

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 08:29 PM
Ya wade doesn't hold up to me here due to overall resume. Like I do agree peak wade could easily be argued best and he definitely had 2006 post season over others.

In the end though he spent a lot of his time injured/as a 2nd fiddle that wasn't really overacheiving. I mean KG had the knee injury but that RAPM, on/off, and his overall numbers still imply a pretty major impact over a very long time. Wade might have peaked slightly over that in an overall sense but KG's dominance defensively and amount of time providing top level impact put him over the top here imo. Both won 1 as the best player for their team and while Wade's was far more impressive so is KG's overall resume. KG probably is the most affected all time by his poor supporting casts in MN to be honest and I think that is actually kinda why the RAPM and on/off numbers are so drastic. I could argue him higher up on the all time list if I focused on those types of stats but I won't completely go overboard because I do understand lack of help is likely a big reason for that (but imo should then be accounted for elsewhere on his resume in context, playoff numbers specifically). Like is it coincidence in the middle of his prime Kobes stats dropped in the playoffs or could it just happen to be one of like 2 years in the playoffs he didn't have alot of help? I feel like that type of context really is ignored by many and KG gets hurt the most because of it while his individual impact was huge. Flip had a pretty bad system designed for taking what defenses give (long range 2's) and very often tried weird zones etc to get Kg at point of attack (like against Nash when we played Dallas etc). If we had a normal amount of championship level talent it could have been different but as an individual KG provided so much. His offense left a little too much to be in the top tier but I mean we were propping up Bill Russell offensively haha so I feel like he has plenty still on that end in comparison with the elite defense to where he is the choice here.

Wade this early is intriguing to me but honestly I think I would put Dirk first. I am totally down with Wade soon though and over Malone (maybe barkley, I will definitely hear that one out, seems like a really good discussion tbh).

mightybosstone
11-08-2017, 09:12 PM
I went with Barkley here. I just think he was a better performer at his peak than Garnett, and his prime lasted longer than Wade's. But between Barkley, Garnett, Wade, Dr. J or Dirk, I don't think there's a wrong answer here. The next 5-10 spots are all so hard to determine, and there's a strong case to be made for so many guys. Hell, you could make a decent case for Durant or Curry at this point if you were inclined to do so.

WaDe03
11-08-2017, 11:02 PM
To be honest, I wasn't even going to go Wade this early but I have a hard time convincing myself West Oscar and DRob were better.

I have Wade KG and Dirk in the same tier pretty much, with Wade leading the way. Wade is a guy you can rely on to literally put your team on your back and carry them to a championship. I mean down 0-2 and then in game 3 down 13 with 6 minutes left and he said "I'm not going out like this" and just took the fick over in a way we've never seen. 2nd best finals performance ever behind LeBron in 2016.

This guy was neck and neck and some even believed, the best player in the world at a time where we had prime LeBron and Kobe. The only thing stopping him from having an MVP was his shoulder injury in the 06-07 season about 50 games in where he was running away with it. Hell, that injury could've cost him another championship. He was averaging 29-5-8-2-1 on 50% shooting pre injury.

He destroyed Dirk in one finals and outplayed him as well in 2011. He's made KG his ***** so many times. Barkley never won.

Give me the guy who's going to get me to the big stage and dominate on the biggest stage in the biggest moments. Peak Wade is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan.

YAALREADYKNO
11-08-2017, 11:35 PM
going Dirk here but Robinson at 15? Wow

YAALREADYKNO
11-08-2017, 11:36 PM
To be honest, I wasn't even going to go Wade this early but I have a hard time convincing myself West Oscar and DRob were better.

I have Wade KG and Dirk in the same tier pretty much, with Wade leading the way. Wade is a guy you can rely on to literally put your team on your back and carry them to a championship. I mean down 0-2 and then in game 3 down 13 with 6 minutes left and he said "I'm not going out like this" and just took the fick over in a way we've never seen. 2nd best finals performance ever behind LeBron in 2016.

This guy was neck and neck and some even believed, the best player in the world at a time where we had prime LeBron and Kobe. The only thing stopping him from having an MVP was his shoulder injury in the 06-07 season about 50 games in where he was running away with it. Hell, that injury could've cost him another championship. He was averaging 29-5-8-2-1 on 50% shooting pre injury.

He destroyed Dirk in one finals and outplayed him as well in 2011. He's made KG his ***** so many times. Barkley never won.

Give me the guy who's going to get me to the big stage and dominate on the biggest stage in the biggest moments. Peak Wade is the closest thing we've seen to Jordan.

So you'd want Dirk or Barkley to get you there then for wade to takeover?

WaDe03
11-09-2017, 12:12 AM
So you'd want Dirk or Barkley to get you there then for wade to takeover?

No I'd want to get me there like he did, then **** all over the opposing team for a championship.

KnicksorBust
11-09-2017, 12:17 AM
Hmmm so we are placing drob despite not winning?

Honestly I think kg is better than drob and they are pretty similar. Not sure how he wouldn't go here to people who voted drob already...

I already said whoever came in second in the tiebreaker would be 15th.

Dumb decision. Drob would not have won 15th.

mrblisterdundee
11-09-2017, 01:43 PM
Dumb decision. Drob would not have won 15th.

He already got the same amount of votes as Robertson when we were doing the general vote for 14th.

mightybosstone
11-09-2017, 01:52 PM
He already got the same amount of votes as Robertson when we were doing the general vote for 14th.

Right, but you're assuming that some of the voters who picked Robertson in the last vote would definitely pick Robinson and that the same group of voters would be involved in the next poll. Neither was likely to be true. Robinson may have been the most likely to win at No. 15, but that doesn't mean it should have been an automatic assumption.

That being said, I don't mind it that much. Robinson belongs somewhere in that 15-20 range.

FlashBolt
11-09-2017, 03:45 PM
Wade's lack of longevity due to delayed NBA entry and then injuries ensuing really hurts him here. Had he showed up to the NBA at age 20, repaired his knee, and focused on staying healthy, he would certainly be warranted around this area. Maybe even CRACKING the top 11-14th area. I just can't look past around like six years of his career that were just not very relevant at all. I'd put KG right now and then Dirk. I see no arguments of Barkley over KG or Dirk, to be honest. It's more of a debate if we did a Karl Malone vs Barkley situation. As much as I hate KD, we should start considering him around this area as well. His peak and consistency coupled with his scoring ability is worthy of mention.

KnicksorBust
11-09-2017, 04:59 PM
Dumb decision. Drob would not have won 15th.

He already got the same amount of votes as Robertson when we were doing the general vote for 14th.

Yeah I know how a tie works. :laugh:

The point is if Robertson wasn't an option then all of the people that voted for him should get to pick someone new. Those people technically didn't get a chance to vote for #15. That is stupid.

WaDe03
11-09-2017, 08:53 PM
There's literally nothing Wade couldn't do when he was at his best.

I'll point out a flaw from the others in the race right now and you all shoot back with Wades flaws.

KG: fell off in the playoffs, couldn't win the big one as the man

Dirk: a non factor defensively

Barkley: couldn't win the big one

There's not a knock on Wade as big as any of those flaws to the other guys.

Wade destroying Dirk in 06 and outplaying him in 2011 as well makes it impossible for me to put Dirk ahead of Wade. I've seen Wade make KG his ***** so many times and the fact that KG couldn't get it done as the man and fell off a bit in the playoffs makes it impossible for me to put him above Wade. Barkley never winning makes it impossible for me to put him above Wade. Hell the more I think about it, the more I'm not even sure West DRob and Oscar were the better player than Wade, talking strictly the game at their best, AND Wade has 3 rings. I need to look in a little more but I've been saying this for years, I can't be convinced West is a better player than Wade.

Give me the player who was better, at their best and has the rings to back it.

KnicksorBust
11-09-2017, 09:08 PM
There's literally nothing Wade couldn't do when he was at his best.

I'll point out a flaw from the others in the race right now and you all shoot back with Wades flaws.

KG: fell off in the playoffs, couldn't win the big one as the man

Dirk: a non factor defensively

Barkley: couldn't win the big one

There's not a knock on Wade as big as any of those flaws to the other guys.

Wade destroying Dirk in 06 and outplaying him in 2011 as well makes it impossible for me to put Dirk ahead of Wade. I've seen Wade make KG his ***** so many times and the fact that KG couldn't get it done as the man and fell off a bit in the playoffs makes it impossible for me to put him above Wade. Barkley never winning makes it impossible for me to put him above Wade. Hell the more I think about it, the more I'm not even sure West DRob and Oscar were the better player than Wade, talking strictly the game at their best, AND Wade has 3 rings. I need to look in a little more but I've been saying this for years, I can't be convinced West is a better player than Wade.

Give me the player who was better, at their best and has the rings to back it.

But that is part of the knock on Wade. How often was he "at his best?" He was always injured. Never played a full season. That is why he only made two all-nba 1st teams. That is why he is only 39th all-time in scoring. Weak all-time rank for someone looking to go top 20. Especially considering he never even won an MVP.

WaDe03
11-09-2017, 09:33 PM
But that is part of the knock on Wade. How often was he "at his best?" He was always injured. Never played a full season. That is why he only made two all-nba 1st teams. That is why he is only 39th all-time in scoring. Weak all-time rank for someone looking to go top 20. Especially considering he never even won an MVP.

He was elite from 04-05 through 2011-2012. He was the best player in the world at one point and his 06 finals ***** on anything the remaining guys have done. We can talk longevity but what did that longevity get them? Not more rings. Give me the guy with the best peak, least flaws, and most rings.

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2017, 09:47 PM
He was elite from 04-05 through 2011-2012. He was the best player in the world at one point and his 06 finals ***** on anything the remaining guys have done. We can talk longevity but what did that longevity get them? Not more rings. Give me the guy with the best peak, least flaws, and most rings.

WAssup with you and D Wade?

KnicksorBust
11-09-2017, 09:49 PM
But that is part of the knock on Wade. How often was he "at his best?" He was always injured. Never played a full season. That is why he only made two all-nba 1st teams. That is why he is only 39th all-time in scoring. Weak all-time rank for someone looking to go top 20. Especially considering he never even won an MVP.

He was elite from 04-05 through 2011-2012. He was the best player in the world at one point and his 06 finals ***** on anything the remaining guys have done. We can talk longevity but what did that longevity get them? Not more rings. Give me the guy with the best peak, least flaws, and most rings.

So where do you rank Bill Walton?

WaDe03
11-09-2017, 10:06 PM
So where do you rank Bill Walton?

Stop, it's not near the same and you know it.

WaDe03
11-09-2017, 10:06 PM
WAssup with you and D Wade?

WAssup with you and Dirk?

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2017, 10:11 PM
WAssup with you and Dirk?

I'm not droolin over the man tho lmao. You talk as if wade was absolutely flawless

WaDe03
11-09-2017, 10:17 PM
I'm not droolin over the man tho lmao. You talk as if wade was absolutely flawless

He has less flaws than the remaining players easily. Debate it.

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2017, 10:28 PM
He has less flaws than the remaining players easily. Debate it.

Dirk better longer, 1 of 4 players to avg 25 & 10 in the playoffs, did more with less, and one of the best elimination game performers of all time. At there absolute peaks I'll give to wade tho dude was a monster in 09

KnicksorBust
11-10-2017, 05:51 AM
So where do you rank Bill Walton?

Stop, it's not near the same and you know it.

Make a real argument.

Walton was the best player in the world from 76-78. Won an MVP and FMVP. Had no flaws.

leprechaun5
11-10-2017, 06:38 AM
All the PF that crack the top 25 should be ahead of Wade. KG, Dirk, Barkley, Malone in that order. KG is a top 5 defensive player ever and the best 2 way player out of all remaining players.

ewing
11-10-2017, 07:53 AM
All the PF that crack the top 25 should be ahead of Wade. KG, Dirk, Barkley, Malone in that order. KG is a top 5 defensive player ever and the best 2 way player out of all remaining players.

he isn't close to top 5

ewing
11-10-2017, 07:54 AM
Leaning KG or D-Wade here, trying to talk myself into Dirk.

the first two are totally ****ing tools

ewing
11-10-2017, 07:58 AM
He has less flaws than the remaining players easily. Debate it.

people have. he had the best peak but was too fragile. there isn't a point to debating you.

WaDe03
11-10-2017, 10:56 AM
people have. he had the best peak but was too fragile. there isn't a point to debating you.

Longevity this and longevity that, that longevity got them less rings.

ewing
11-10-2017, 11:01 AM
Longevity this and longevity that, that longevity got them less rings.

exactly, you disagree and are completely unwilling to hear the other side so what's the point

AntiG
11-10-2017, 04:34 PM
in no particular order, Drexler, Barkley, Karl Malone and KG all should have gone before, in-between or after West/Robertson and before Robinson.

KnicksorBust
11-10-2017, 06:24 PM
people have. he had the best peak but was too fragile. there isn't a point to debating you.

Longevity this and longevity that, that longevity got them less rings.

But you won't engage on bill walton. Hilarious but weak.

Chronz
11-10-2017, 08:07 PM
Longevity this and longevity that, that longevity got them less rings.

For real. We were valuing chips earlier, the longevity debate has proven selective/inconsistent . Its a legacy list but damn, doesn't actually being the better player for a long amount of time not matter?

If some low level all-star was the first guy to play to age 50, some of y'all would prolly put him on here

Chronz
11-10-2017, 08:07 PM
But you won't engage on bill walton. Hilarious but weak.

1 season vs multiple runs. Seems legit

KnicksorBust
11-10-2017, 08:24 PM
Longevity this and longevity that, that longevity got them less rings.

For real. We were valuing chips earlier, the longevity debate has proven selective/inconsistent . Its a legacy list but damn, doesn't actually being the better player for a long amount of time not matter?

If some low level all-star was the first guy to play to age 50, some of y'all would prolly put him on here

I call BS. This list hasn't shown any special perks for longevity.

Allphakenny1
11-10-2017, 10:07 PM
I think I accidentally voted Kevin Durant when I wanted to vote Kevin Garnett. Can someone change my vote?

FlashBolt
11-10-2017, 10:33 PM
He has less flaws than the remaining players easily. Debate it.

Pretty sure an older KG+Dirk would have won a championship with LeBron as well. In fact, they would probably be of more help to LeBron than Wade was from 2012-2014. I mean, is anyone arguing that Wade at age 30-32 was better than KG or Dirk? I don't value Wade's last two rings much as you probably do mainly because if I have to rank someone top 20 and it's pretty close, I have to consider the rings argument. KG+Dirk longevity easily outshines Wade. I mean, Dirk is like sixth all-time in scoring and he's easily the greatest EURO player who revolutionized the game of a big shooting player. KG was an absolute animal both offensively and defensively for much of his career and even in his Boston days, was one of the best defenders. Both were also MVP's. Wade was never.

GREATNESS ONE
11-10-2017, 11:19 PM
KG then Mailman or the Round Mound of Rebound.

valade16
11-11-2017, 01:51 AM
1 season vs multiple runs. Seems legit

Multiple runs being 2? Wade’s Heat made the ECF 2 whole Times.

basch152
11-11-2017, 02:09 AM
Multiple runs being 2? Wade’s Heat made the ECF 2 whole Times.

shaqs heat*