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View Full Version : All-Time Player Power Rankings: No. 14 tie-breaker



mrblisterdundee
11-06-2017, 06:05 PM
David Robinson and Oscar Robertson were tied in our rankings of the 14th best NBA player all-time. Voting in this runoff will last two days. Whoever loses will be ranked 15th.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 06:10 PM
Big O was all-nba 1st team for almost a decade straight. Top 5 player for a decade. 6x leader in assists. Drob was great but didnt dominate like Oscar.

mrblisterdundee
11-06-2017, 06:10 PM
I went with Robinson because of his superior defensive impact. Oscar's stats are great but padded by the pace. A better way to compare these two players is per 100 possessions.

valade16
11-06-2017, 06:30 PM
I went with Robinson because of his superior defensive impact. Oscar's stats are great but padded by the pace. A better way to compare these two players is per 100 possessions.

Well it's also about putting the stats in context, yeah due to the pace his PPG/RPG/APG are padded, but if anything we aren't giving enough credit to how insanely efficient he was for the time period.

Here was his TS% rank by year in the league (among non big men in parenthesis):

1961: 1st (1st)
1962: T-1st (1st)
1963: 3rd (2nd) - #1 TS was .599 he was .589
1964: 2nd (1st) - #1 TS was .578 he was .576
1965: 3rd (3rd) - #1 TS was .582 he was .561
1966: 2nd (2nd) - #1 TS was .573 he was .563
1967: 2nd (1st) - #1 TS was Wilt Chamberlain
1968: 2nd (2nd) - #1 TS was .590 he was .588
1969: 2nd (1st) - #1 TS was .590 he was .579
1970: 3rd (2nd) - #1 TS was .580 he was .577

While a member of the Royals he never finished lower than 3rd in the NBA in TS% and was often times off from the league lead by the narrowest of margins. The only players who posted a higher TS% than him in any of those seasons were:

Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West
Jerry Lucas
Bailey Howell

To put it in perspective, David Robinson wasn't nearly that efficient at scoring compared to his peers and he's a freaking Center (and Big O didn't even have the 3pt line to boost his TS% for a perimeter player).

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 07:26 PM
I went with Robinson because of his superior defensive impact. Oscar's stats are great but padded by the pace. A better way to compare these two players is per 100 possessions.

That is stupid. They played in different eras. If you care about context compare them to their peers.

mrblisterdundee
11-06-2017, 07:42 PM
That is stupid. They played in different eras. If you care about context compare them to their peers.

How is it stupid to adjust for pace? I suppose you think advanced statistics in general are stupid. They show that Robinson clearly had a bigger overall impact on games than Robertson.

valade16
11-06-2017, 08:01 PM
How is it stupid to adjust for pace? I suppose you think advanced statistics in general are stupid. They show that Robinson clearly had a bigger overall impact on games than Robertson.

They also show that D-Rob clearly had a bigger overall impact on games than Olajuwon, but nobody believes that.

But even using advanced stats we see that D-Rob was a different player in the playoffs. Until his injury he averaged:

27.8 PER | .592 TS% | .260 WS/48 in the regular season

Playoffs it was:

24.1 PER | .557 TS% | .189 WS/48

Compare to Big O who was;

25.0 PER | .572 TS% | .224 WS/48 in the regular season with the Royals

and

24.1 PER | .566 TS% | .197 WS/48 in the playoffs.


So I'm not sure what advanced stats you're using, but they actually show Big O played better than D-Rob in the playoffs as the main man on their team.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 09:01 PM
That is stupid. They played in different eras. If you care about context compare them to their peers.

How is it stupid to adjust for pace? I suppose you think advanced statistics in general are stupid. They show that Robinson clearly had a bigger overall impact on games than Robertson.

Busted! You caught me. Stats are for losers. WATCH THE GAMES NERD!!!!

GREATNESS ONE
11-06-2017, 09:47 PM
Big O

mrblisterdundee
11-07-2017, 01:31 AM
They also show that D-Rob clearly had a bigger overall impact on games than Olajuwon, but nobody believes that.
But even using advanced stats we see that D-Rob was a different player in the playoffs. Until his injury he averaged:
27.8 PER | .592 TS% | .260 WS/48 in the regular season
Playoffs it was:
24.1 PER | .557 TS% | .189 WS/48
Compare to Big O who was;
25.0 PER | .572 TS% | .224 WS/48 in the regular season with the Royals
and
24.1 PER | .566 TS% | .197 WS/48 in the playoffs.
So I'm not sure what advanced stats you're using, but they actually show Big O played better than D-Rob in the playoffs as the main man on their team.

I don't know what stats you're using either, because basically none of them are accurate. Here's a direct player comparison in Basketball-Reference (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id1_select=Oscar+Robertson&player_id1=roberos01&player_id2_hint=David+Robinson&player_id2_select=David+Robinson&player_id2=robinda01&player_id3_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id3_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id3=olajuha01&idx=players). It clearly shows that Robinson clearly had a greater impact than Robertson on games in the regular season and the playoffs. They also showed Olajuwon had a greater impact than either Robinson or Robertson, contrary to another point you were trying to make.
Robertson was great, even adjusted for the inflated pace of the 1960s. He'll fit great right behind Robinson.

mrblisterdundee
11-07-2017, 01:45 AM
Busted! You caught me. Stats are for losers. WATCH THE GAMES NERD!!!!

And I'm sure you're so well-studied in the games of Oscar Robertson.

ewing
11-07-2017, 07:25 AM
Busted! You caught me. Stats are for losers. WATCH THE GAMES NERD!!!!

At least you figured it out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KnicksorBust
11-07-2017, 08:46 AM
At least you figured it out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:laugh:

KnicksorBust
11-07-2017, 08:59 AM
And I'm sure you're so well-studied in the games of Oscar Robertson.

I may not go back to the 60s and 70s but the 90s and 2000s is my wheel house. Robinson choked repeatedly in big games. I remember some of his worst games against the Rockets/Jazz/Lakers. Does that impact your opinion at all?

europagnpilgrim
11-07-2017, 09:17 AM
How is it stupid to adjust for pace? I suppose you think advanced statistics in general are stupid. They show that Robinson clearly had a bigger overall impact on games than Robertson.

what does the game film show? doesn't get no more advanced that what the eyes tell you and its true, its damn true

only edge Robinson had on Big O was height and protecting the rim/paint, other than that the advanced stats in general wouldn't sway me either way, with that being said give me Big O over DRob to start my franchise from scratch, I keep telling you fake experts on here that you draft the better player to start your team from scratch, I am taking Big O but its not like a runaway landslide, I would give it some thought but will go with the 30pt triple double PG threat

mightybosstone
11-07-2017, 11:08 AM
I went with Robertson for the same reason others have mentioned: Robinson's postseason resume. Yes, the guy won two rings playing second (or third) fiddle to Duncan. But when he was the alpha dog in San Antonio, those teams consistently underperformed in the playoffs. Robertson wasn't some playoff stud, but I'd take his playoff resume over Robertson's.

Also, if we look at who dominated his respective era more or who had the greater lasting impact on the game and its legacy, it's clearly Oscar.

valade16
11-07-2017, 12:39 PM
I don't know what stats you're using either, because basically none of them are accurate. Here's a direct player comparison in Basketball-Reference (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id1_select=Oscar+Robertson&player_id1=roberos01&player_id2_hint=David+Robinson&player_id2_select=David+Robinson&player_id2=robinda01&player_id3_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id3_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id3=olajuha01&idx=players). It clearly shows that Robinson clearly had a greater impact than Robertson on games in the regular season and the playoffs. They also showed Olajuwon had a greater impact than either Robinson or Robertson, contrary to another point you were trying to make.
Robertson was great, even adjusted for the inflated pace of the 1960s. He'll fit great right behind Robinson.

All of them were accurate. The advanced stats of Robinson were from his rookie year up until his injury and the Spurs getting Duncan and the stats for Big O were of him on the Royals before he was traded to Milwaukee.

And no the stats don't show Hakeem had a greater regular season impact than D-Rob

.250 WS/48 > .177
26.2 PER > 23.6
.583 TS% > .563 TS%

In fact there is not a single advanced statistic you showed that has Hakeem better than D-Rob in the regular season...

If you want to include when they were second fiddles to Duncan and Kareem to boost D-Rob's numbers, you can.

But as the main man leading their teams, Big O was better than D-Rob in the playoffs by advanced stats. That's just fact.

KnicksorBust
11-07-2017, 12:58 PM
I went with Robertson for the same reason others have mentioned: Robinson's postseason resume. Yes, the guy won two rings playing second (or third) fiddle to Duncan. But when he was the alpha dog in San Antonio, those teams consistently underperformed in the playoffs. Robertson wasn't some playoff stud, but I'd take his playoff resume over Robertson's.

Also, if we look at who dominated his respective era more or who had the greater lasting impact on the game and its legacy, it's clearly Oscar.

You probably got to enjoy his ball shrinkage first hand.

KnicksorBust
11-07-2017, 01:00 PM
I don't know what stats you're using either, because basically none of them are accurate. Here's a direct player comparison in Basketball-Reference (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Oscar+Robertson&player_id1_select=Oscar+Robertson&player_id1=roberos01&player_id2_hint=David+Robinson&player_id2_select=David+Robinson&player_id2=robinda01&player_id3_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id3_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id3=olajuha01&idx=players). It clearly shows that Robinson clearly had a greater impact than Robertson on games in the regular season and the playoffs. They also showed Olajuwon had a greater impact than either Robinson or Robertson, contrary to another point you were trying to make.
Robertson was great, even adjusted for the inflated pace of the 1960s. He'll fit great right behind Robinson.

All of them were accurate. The advanced stats of Robinson were from his rookie year up until his injury and the Spurs getting Duncan and the stats for Big O were of him on the Royals before he was traded to Milwaukee.

And no the stats don't show Hakeem had a greater regular season impact than D-Rob

.250 WS/48 > .177
26.2 PER > 23.6
.583 TS% > .563 TS%

In fact there is not a single advanced statistic you showed that has Hakeem better than D-Rob in the regular season...

If you want to include when they were second fiddles to Duncan and Kareem to boost D-Rob's numbers, you can.

But as the main man leading their teams, Big O was better than D-Rob in the playoffs by advanced stats. That's just fact.

I would take Wade over Drob for that same reason. Wade elevated his game while drob shrunk.

Chronz
11-07-2017, 01:54 PM
What was so impressive about either o and drob to be above wade and Dirk

Chronz
11-07-2017, 02:03 PM
You probably got to enjoy his ball shrinkage first hand.

He had alot of room for shrinkage tho. What were so sterling about oscars runs, that is when he was lucky enough to have one

valade16
11-07-2017, 02:18 PM
He had alot of room for shrinkage tho. What were so sterling about oscars runs, that is when he was lucky enough to have one

Well outside one playoff series with the Royals he had to face Russell's Celtics and Wilt's 76ers every single playoff (from 63-67).

Also in the series vs. the Celtics he averaged 31.4 PPG | 10.2 RPG | 7.25 APG and averaged 28 PPG | 4 RPG | 11 APG in his series vs. Wilt's 76ers.

So I guess I'm more ready to give Big O a pass for not being able to defeat Russell's Celtics or Wilt's 76ers than I am D-Rob for not being able to beat the Run TMC Warriors, Pre-Barkley Suns or the Jazz.

Chronz
11-07-2017, 05:33 PM
Well outside one playoff series with the Royals he had to face Russell's Celtics and Wilt's 76ers every single playoff (from 63-67).

Also in the series vs. the Celtics he averaged 31.4 PPG | 10.2 RPG | 7.25 APG and averaged 28 PPG | 4 RPG | 11 APG in his series vs. Wilt's 76ers.

So I guess I'm more ready to give Big O a pass for not being able to defeat Russell's Celtics or Wilt's 76ers than I am D-Rob for not being able to beat the Run TMC Warriors, Pre-Barkley Suns or the Jazz.

Sounds like you may be isolating situations unfairly. Drob losing to the warriors is much like Dirks loss to the same team/coach. For Oscar his lowest points were missing the loffs entirely.

Heediot
11-07-2017, 05:39 PM
Admiral at 14, is too high for me. He had all the physical tools and skills, but he didn't really step it up in the playoffs.

valade16
11-07-2017, 05:53 PM
Sounds like you may be isolating situations unfairly. Drob losing to the warriors is much like Dirks loss to the same team/coach. For Oscar his lowest points were missing the loffs entirely.

Yes, but Dirk also led the Mavs to a title in what is generally considered one of the lesser supporting casts for a championship winner ever (fair or not).

As for Oscar, you're correct that his lower points were missing the playoffs entirely, but those were towards the end of his Royals run. In 1968 he missed 17 games, and Happy Hairston missed half the season. The Royals missed the playoffs by a single game, I'm fairly sure if Big O had played the full season they'd make it. In 1969 the Royals were behind the Bullets, Celtics, Knicks and 76ers. So Russell, Wilt, and the Knicks (who won the title the very next year). 1970 he lost Jerry Lucas.

Yes, to some extent those are excuses, but in his prime he took the Royals to the playoffs every year in a division with Russell/Wilt comprising 25-50% of the teams he faced.

And we still have the damning fact that despite his stellar numbers during the regular season, D-Rob's numbers absolutely plummeted in the playoffs as the main option.

Looking at D-Rob's 1 WCF appearance as the man, the Spurs defeated the 8th seeded Nuggets, the 5th seeded Lakers and lost to the 6th seeded Rockets (though because they had acquired Drexler, they were far better than their seed indicated). They had the easiest road you could imagine in the West at that time. They avoided Barkley's Suns, the Jazz and GP's Sonics.

I guess I'd ask, other than his regular season stats, what is so impressive about D-Rob as the main man?

GREATNESS ONE
11-07-2017, 08:20 PM
Admiral at 14, is too high for me. He had all the physical tools and skills, but he didn't really step it up in the playoffs.

I don’t have Robinson at 15 either :shrug: but apparently we’re playing a different game.

Karl Malone? Just because he has no rings lol hilarious.

Dwayne Wade?

Bruno
11-07-2017, 09:59 PM
O, KG next- still 3-6 spots too early to vote in D-Rob.

WaDe03
11-07-2017, 11:57 PM
I'm actually hype at the Wade mentions, looks like he may finally be getting the credit he deserves.

AntiG
11-08-2017, 11:05 AM
Admiral at 14, is too high for me. He had all the physical tools and skills, but he didn't really step it up in the playoffs.

Barkley, Drexler, K.Malone > Robinson.

Chronz
11-08-2017, 05:36 PM
Yes, but Dirk also led the Mavs to a title in what is generally considered one of the lesser supporting casts for a championship winner ever (fair or not).

Kind of makes you wonder why he's not here..



As for Oscar, you're correct that his lower points were missing the playoffs entirely, but those were towards the end of his Royals run. In 1968 he missed 17 games, and Happy Hairston missed half the season. The Royals missed the playoffs by a single game, I'm fairly sure if Big O had played the full season they'd make it. In 1969 the Royals were behind the Bullets, Celtics, Knicks and 76ers. So Russell, Wilt, and the Knicks (who won the title the very next year). 1970 he lost Jerry Lucas.

Yes, to some extent those are excuses, but in his prime he took the Royals to the playoffs every year in a division with Russell/Wilt comprising 25-50% of the teams he faced.

The point could be made that had Oscar been as productive as Drob he could have had a friendlier seeding and/or made the playoffs, something something durability.

I mean Drob helped the spurs become a fringe contender seemingly over night, big o was sub.500 year one, lost to a ho hum pistons team, beat the pre Wilt nats and pushed the Celtics 2 of 3 series but do we completely discount how mediocre those royals were by comparison?

4 years of missing the playoffs in your prime can only be marginalized for so long in these discussions, particularly when the other guy is on a team that craps the bed equally without him imo. Big o had less of an advantage as he aged, relatively short peak as a result.



And we still have the damning fact that despite his stellar numbers during the regular season, D-Rob's numbers absolutely plummeted in the playoffs as the main option.

Is it really so damming here tho? I mean who's title run do you rank higher? Even when he falls off, Drob is such a goat rs performer he has more room for it. He's fallen off what he prolly should've been that's for sure

He still has a comparable ps line only we know he's superior defensively with more durability. But yes, the devil is in the details and maybe big o is a better chip piece, but when both really upped their games, it came as co leaders.





Looking at D-Rob's 1 WCF appearance as the man, the Spurs defeated the 8th seeded Nuggets, the 5th seeded Lakers and lost to the 6th seeded Rockets (though because they had acquired Drexler, they were far better than their seed indicated). They had the easiest road you could imagine in the West at that time. They avoided Barkley's Suns, the Jazz and GP's Sonics.
The west was tough for sure but they had that run because Drob had that mvp season. They lost to the eventual champ just the same. Let's not be too harsh on the nuggets they beat your very Sonics and pushed the jazz to the brink a year prior.




I guess I'd ask, other than his regular season stats, what is so impressive about D-Rob as the main man?
That he played at a level that ensured his team didn't miss the playoffs and he also won a chip, guess it depends on which of theirs you value more.

I worry blowing up the importance of a limited playoff sample size but it's fun to think about. Drob does lack that dominant win tho