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JasonJohnHorn
11-06-2017, 11:05 AM
In only ten games, Lonzo Ball has caught up to LeBron James with respect to the number of single-digit scoring games.

LBJ has 8; Lonzo ball has 8.

Side note: LBJ has more 50+ points games (11) than he doesn single digit scoring games (8).


EDIT: To those suggesting this is a troll thread, I see you point and understand it. I don't typically make 'troll' threads. I've been watching basketball for a LONG time. 30+ years. I have never seen any rookie play THIS bad ever. And given the hype he had coming in, this is worth talking about.

He is having an historically bad start. He is the first rookie EVER to shoot over 100 shots in his first ten games and come away shooting under 30% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=198 4&year_max=2018&is_playoffs=N&age_min=0&age_max=99 &game_num_type=season&game_num_min=1&game_num_max= 10&season_start=1&season_end=1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_g f=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y& pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=fga&c1comp=gt&c1val=100&c2stat= fg_pct&c2comp=lt&c2val=.35&order_by=fg_pct&order_b y_asc=Y).

This is not just bad. It is historically bad. And it is historically bad from an unprecedented hype campaign (not with respect to volume, but with respect to media attention his dad garnered) that involved comparisons to Magic and a framing of this guy in the class of player that we typically put generational players in (LeBron, KD, Curry, Kobe, ect).

I hope the kid turns out great, but this performance so far is bizarrely woeful.

GREATNESS ONE
11-06-2017, 11:09 AM
What kind of bash troll thread is this? :laugh2:

TylerSL
11-06-2017, 11:11 AM
Ok, but Lebron was a borderline top 10 player in the league as a rookie. Nobody can compare to him.

TylerSL
11-06-2017, 11:16 AM
Lonzo Ball is like a lot of these young guys and he just needs time to develop. Brandon Ingram and Jaylen Brown have really struggled at times too, and even guys like D'Angelo Russell and Devin Booker are just now starting to become top level players. I'd be shocked if Ball doesn't turn into at least a multi-time All-Star.

TheDish87
11-06-2017, 11:57 AM
Ok, but Lebron was a borderline top 10 player in the league as a rookie. Nobody can compare to him.

lol no he wasnt

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 12:17 PM
What kind of bash troll thread is this? :laugh2:

Yeah seriously. So wait Lonzo Ball isn't going to be as good as LeBron? This thread reeks of baiting.

TylerSL
11-06-2017, 12:58 PM
lol no he wasnt

He scored the 8th most points that season, and was 13th in assists, as well as 13th in steals. He averaged 21/6/5.5 a night. Looking at the stats for the 03-04 season, he's actually probably closer to the 15-20 range. Still, calling him a "borderline top 10 player" isn't inaccurate. He was easily one of the 20 best players in his rookie season, and he was a top 5 player and legitimate MVP candidate in his 2nd season. Comparing Lonzo Ball, or really any young player, to him is laughable.

Jeffy25
11-06-2017, 01:00 PM
Jordan only had single digits once as a Bull (11 times as a Wizard)

It's cause he broke his foot



Troll thread is dumb troll thread

Vinylman
11-06-2017, 01:16 PM
let me guess who the OP is...

yep... the ultimate troll

LA4life24/8
11-06-2017, 01:24 PM
Are yall really tryna bait lakers fans into comparing lonzo to lebron... wow. Lebron one of the greatest ever and were gonna compare a rookie to him. Nah. I like zo but he was/is never gonna be in the same category as lebron

TheDish87
11-06-2017, 01:35 PM
yea true. Ball doesnt even compare to his fellow rookie Simmons so this Lebron comparison is insane.

DanG
11-06-2017, 01:55 PM
Find this so sad how many people get enjoyment out of a 19 year old player struggling to score a basketball. Get a life.

LeBron/Simmons are physical freaks. 6'8/6'10 250lbs and run like guards. Lonzo is a skinny bastard compared to them. If he grows into his body he'll be much better.

homie564
11-06-2017, 02:39 PM
Lol the agenda of the nba forum summed up in a few bullets:

*Lonzo Ball is the WOAT
*Simmons is the GOAT
*Embiid is Wilt reincarnated
*Kyrie couldnít defend a stationary pylon
*Carmelo Anthony sucks eggs


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Leftcoast_yg
11-06-2017, 03:24 PM
Lol the agenda of the nba forum summed up in a few bullets:

*Lonzo Ball is the WOAT
*Simmons is the GOAT
*Embiid is Wilt reincarnated
*Kyrie couldnít defend a stationary pylon
*Carmelo Anthony sucks eggs


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Lmao the Eclipse Embiid and no j simmons knob riding is getting out of control

TheDish87
11-06-2017, 03:25 PM
Lol the agenda of the nba forum summed up in a few bullets:

*Lonzo Ball is the WOAT
*Simmons is the GOAT
*Embiid is Wilt reincarnated
*Kyrie couldnít defend a stationary pylon
*Carmelo Anthony sucks eggs


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to be fair these 2 are true

More-Than-Most
11-06-2017, 04:44 PM
to be fair these 2 are true

so is the melo one.

More-Than-Most
11-06-2017, 04:48 PM
Find this so sad how many people get enjoyment out of a 19 year old player struggling to score a basketball. Get a life.

LeBron/Simmons are physical freaks. 6'8/6'10 250lbs and run like guards. Lonzo is a skinny bastard compared to them. If he grows into his body he'll be much better.

To be fair laker fans and others destroyed lebron for years at the early age of his young career... Lebron was hyped as hell and had a target on his back much like Ball has been... If you are gonna wear the spotlight you need to be able to deal with the target/criticism. I dont like lonzo game and this is a stupid thread but his work ethic and mentaltiy are his positives. I doubt he cares about his shooting as long as they win.

mngopher35
11-06-2017, 05:00 PM
Lonzo is not a scorer and Lebron is an elite one

Lonzo also has more 13 assist games than Shaq and Hakeem combined...

KB24PG16
11-06-2017, 05:27 PM
quality thread

FOXHOUND
11-06-2017, 05:35 PM
Lonzo Ball is only 6'6 and T-Mac was 6'8.

Discuss.

Scoots
11-06-2017, 06:28 PM
Anybody saying there is something wrong with this thread wasn't paying attention in all the lead up to the draft. This was predicted because of LaVar.

Yes, Ball has a tendency to suck ... doesn't mean he's going to continue to do that.

The LaVar/Lonzo haters are not going to stop, the Lakers/Ball fans are just going to have to wait and hope.

jaydubb
11-06-2017, 07:00 PM
Yea but Lonzo ball has better hair than shaq

Discuss

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JasonJohnHorn
11-06-2017, 07:00 PM
let me guess who the OP is...

yep... the ultimate troll

I'll gladly concede that this may be perceived as a bit of a troll thread, but I feel it is justified to take a step back and look at what this guy is doing.

The media, his father, and many fans have been pushing this guy, not only as a good player; not only as a great player, but one of the greatest. A franchise/megastar.

The magnitude of his utterly and completely underwhelming performance so far warrants a discussion. This is a historically bad performance.

Given that his own father has drawn comparison to LeBron, and put him in that class of player, it is a fair comparison in that context.

In LBJ's career, he's had 8 single digit games. 8. That is amazing for a guy who has played over a 1000 games.

Ball is shooting a the bottom of the league. He isn't even the best rookie on his team right now.


I mean... this is a guy who's compared his game to Magic. He's calling for these comparisons. And Magic, the Lakers GM compared himself to Ball.

So... yeah... you can say I'm 'the ultimate troll', but that's just because every time you and I go head to head, you use a bunch of logical fallacies and talk in circles. Logical fallacy one already here: personal attacks. Others who disagree with the thread proposed that it was 'trolling' or a 'troll' thread, but didn't outright call me a troll. You have to go for the personal insult. That's your style.


A guy gets heavily touted, framed in the same class of player as the most elite, and falls flat on his face. It's worth putting into perspective by comparing what he's done to what LBJ's done, especially given that Ball came into the league a year older than LBJ.


That's not being a troll: that's giving Ball what he's asked for. This dude just past a woeful milestone that a guy playing 15 seasons has yet to pass. It is at once a compliment to LBJ, and a diss on Ball and a skewering of the hype he had coming in.

IndyRealist
11-06-2017, 07:38 PM
He scored the 8th most points that season, and was 13th in assists, as well as 13th in steals. He averaged 21/6/5.5 a night. Looking at the stats for the 03-04 season, he's actually probably closer to the 15-20 range. Still, calling him a "borderline top 10 player" isn't inaccurate. He was easily one of the 20 best players in his rookie season, and he was a top 5 player and legitimate MVP candidate in his 2nd season. Comparing Lonzo Ball, or really any young player, to him is laughable.

He also shot 44% from 2 and 29% from 3. His offense was a pretty terrible 99 ORTG. This is how you get fooled by per game stats. He was the 2nd coming, so he was force-fed the ball.

Vinylman
11-06-2017, 07:43 PM
Anybody saying there is something wrong with this thread wasn't paying attention in all the lead up to the draft. This was predicted because of LaVar.

Yes, Ball has a tendency to suck ... doesn't mean he's going to continue to do that.

The LaVar/Lonzo haters are not going to stop, the Lakers/Ball fans are just going to have to wait and hope.

shocking... a mod not fulfilling his responsibilities to the site... never thought it would be you

RIP PSD

GREATNESS ONE
11-06-2017, 09:40 PM
LOLz itís kinda hilarious tbh; Like UCLA/Lakers fans havenít been listening to the Pied Piper. We know, we get it, we embrace it and 90% really like Lonzo. If he was anything like his dad, Iím sure most of us would hate this guy lol

Giannis94
11-06-2017, 09:55 PM
This thread didn't get locked? Oh boy. Get ready PSD. Giannis94 is back!

tredigs
11-06-2017, 10:17 PM
Curry scored single digits in 6 of his first 10 games. By the inferred logic of this thread, Lonzo is on pace to be a top 5 PG in history.

One Nut Kruk
11-07-2017, 10:39 AM
It dont matter people will always hate lol. The dude could wind up a top 10 point guard of all time and people will still hate. Hes hated cuz hes a laker because of his father and THEN because of his lack of scoring.

I think his father is #1 more so than that he is a Laker.

LA4life24/8
11-07-2017, 10:40 AM
It dont matter people will always hate lol. The dude could wind up a top 10 point guard of all time and people will still hate. Hes hated cuz hes a laker because of his father and THEN because of his lack of scoring.

warfelg
11-07-2017, 10:49 AM
I think his father is #1 more so than that he is a Laker.

This. I would feel the same even if he was a Sixer.

basch152
11-07-2017, 11:19 PM
Curry scored single digits in 6 of his first 10 games. By the inferred logic of this thread, Lonzo is on pace to be a top 5 PG in history.
and most thought curry coming out of college would be nothing more than an undersized shooting guard that couldn't do anything but shoot.

not exactly Apples to apples here

KingPosey
11-08-2017, 12:05 AM
Even with bad defense and awful shooting, heís averaging basically 9 7 and 7. No rookie playing ďthe worst youíve ever seenĒ can do that basically by accident, as youíre saying

R. Johnson#3
11-08-2017, 10:29 AM
This is just so darn cute.

warfelg
11-08-2017, 11:12 AM
Even with bad defense and awful shooting, heís averaging basically 9 7 and 7. No rookie playing ďthe worst youíve ever seenĒ can do that basically by accident, as youíre saying

Hereís my issue on saying ďaveraging 9-7-7Ē

Heís averaging 9 points....on 12 shots a game with a 34.6 eFG%.

Averaging 7 rebounds....with a 10% reb%.

Iíll give it up that the 6.9 ast to 2.4 turnovers is nice.

But heís got an almost 19% usage rate.

Letís just say that every assist averages 2.3 points (1 out of every 4 being a 3 and accounting for and-1 attempts). Thatís 15.8 points off assists.

Add in the 8.8 points per game.

24.6 points per game is what heís contributing on a 19% usage rate.

Just compare points contributed to fellow rookies. Using the same rates:
Simmons: 36.2 on a 24% usage rate
Smith Jr: 25.5 on a 29.4% usage rate
Tatum: 18.7 on a 17.9% usage rate.

Ball falls behind Simmons and is neck and neck with Tatum with what they are contributing.

Overall itís not terrible....but for a guy leading a team itís not great tbh.

IndyRealist
11-08-2017, 11:45 AM
Hereís my issue on saying ďaveraging 9-7-7Ē

Heís averaging 9 points....on 12 shots a game with a 34.6 eFG%.

Averaging 7 rebounds....with a 10% reb%.

Iíll give it up that the 6.9 ast to 2.4 turnovers is nice.

But heís got an almost 19% usage rate.

Letís just say that every assist averages 2.3 points (1 out of every 4 being a 3 and accounting for and-1 attempts). Thatís 15.8 points off assists.

Add in the 8.8 points per game.

24.6 points per game is what heís contributing on a 19% usage rate.

Just compare points contributed to fellow rookies. Using the same rates:
Simmons: 36.2 on a 24% usage rate
Smith Jr: 25.5 on a 29.4% usage rate
Tatum: 18.7 on a 17.9% usage rate.

Ball falls behind Simmons and is neck and neck with Tatum with what they are contributing.

Overall itís not terrible....but for a guy leading a team itís not great tbh.

That's an extremely awkward calculation. You're giving full credit to the person making the assist, which is biased toward point guards in ball dominant systems. You're essentially punishing Tatum and Simmons for not being point guards.

Simmons, Tatum and even Kuzma blow Lonzo out of the water on most metrics. Ball isn't even the best rookie on his own team.

warfelg
11-08-2017, 11:47 AM
That's an extremely awkward calculation. You're giving full credit to the person making the assist, which is biased toward point guards in ball dominant systems. You're essentially punishing Tatum and Simmons for not being point guards.

Simmons, Tatum and even Kuzma blow Lonzo out of the water on most metrics. Ball isn't even the best rookie on his own team.

I was trying to come up with a way to show the impact of the assists.

And fwiw, Ben is a PG

KingPosey
11-08-2017, 04:58 PM
Hereís my issue on saying ďaveraging 9-7-7Ē

Heís averaging 9 points....on 12 shots a game with a 34.6 eFG%.

Averaging 7 rebounds....with a 10% reb%.

Iíll give it up that the 6.9 ast to 2.4 turnovers is nice.

But heís got an almost 19% usage rate.

Letís just say that every assist averages 2.3 points (1 out of every 4 being a 3 and accounting for and-1 attempts). Thatís 15.8 points off assists.

Add in the 8.8 points per game.

24.6 points per game is what heís contributing on a 19% usage rate.

Just compare points contributed to fellow rookies. Using the same rates:
Simmons: 36.2 on a 24% usage rate
Smith Jr: 25.5 on a 29.4% usage rate
Tatum: 18.7 on a 17.9% usage rate.

Ball falls behind Simmons and is neck and neck with Tatum with what they are contributing.

Overall itís not terrible....but for a guy leading a team itís not great tbh.
But the thing is you donít need to do any of what you just did to figure out that even with the bad D and awful shooting, you canít play the worst a rookie has ever played and get near 9-7-7. Worst of
All time guys canít do that.

PropheticGeius
11-08-2017, 06:31 PM
Lonzo is not a very good basketball player. Itís very clear to me that Tatum will be the best rookie from this class, bar none not even close to anyone else.

As Charles Barkley said, Lonzo will be lucky to make an All-Star game in his career. Thatís about how I feel


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Switch
11-08-2017, 06:46 PM
Why is Lonzo being compared to LeBron? That is laughable at this point.

No doubt he is struggling right now but I think he eventually improves.

Switch
11-08-2017, 06:47 PM
Lonzo is not a very good basketball player. Itís very clear to me that Tatum will be the best rookie from this class, bar none not even close to anyone else.

As Charles Barkley said, Lonzo will be lucky to make an All-Star game in his career. Thatís about how I feel


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No love for Kuzma?

PropheticGeius
11-08-2017, 07:04 PM
No love for Kuzma?

I like Kyle better than LonzoÖ

But have you seen this kid Tatum? He is off the charts goodÖ

Tatum reminds me of a young Kobe Bryant except better on defense.


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IndyRealist
11-08-2017, 08:55 PM
But the thing is you donít need to do any of what you just did to figure out that even with the bad D and awful shooting, you canít play the worst a rookie has ever played and get near 9-7-7. Worst of
All time guys canít do that.

That's not really true, and indicative of the problem with "counting" stats. Hypothetically, all you need is an organization with an interest in giving him an excessive amount of minutes he doesn't deserve, and you can hit any reasonable per game stats. Not saying that's what Lonzo is, just that what you argue can't happen can. Remember, Tyreke Evans averaged 20-5-5 for his rookie year.

IndyRealist
11-08-2017, 08:56 PM
No love for Kuzma?

Kuzma's pretty good for an NBA player, let alone a rookie. But there's a gulf between him and Tatum.

PurpleLynch
11-08-2017, 08:59 PM
Lonzo is not a very good basketball player. Itís very clear to me that Tatum will be the best rookie from this class, bar none not even close to anyone else.

As Charles Barkley said, Lonzo will be lucky to make an All-Star game in his career. Thatís about how I feel


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I agree, Barkley is a well known talent evaluator. Jerry West should take a lesson or two from him on how assessing young players potential.

PurpleLynch
11-08-2017, 09:01 PM
I like Kyle better than LonzoÖ

But have you seen this kid Tatum? He is off the charts goodÖ

Tatum reminds me of a young Kobe Bryant except better on defense.


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Came back just to write idiotic things in the forum, I see... Welcome back PJ, hope Lakers forum will give the right welcoming for a legend like you.

Giannis94
11-08-2017, 09:20 PM
Came back just to write idiotic things in the forum, I see... Welcome back PJ, hope Lakers forum will give the right welcoming for a legend like you.

Not a chance in Helena Montana that he's as bad a cmellofan or who was that other guy. Iknpwhoops? Yeah. He can't be worse than them

KingPosey
11-09-2017, 02:13 AM
That's not really true, and indicative of the problem with "counting" stats. Hypothetically, all you need is an organization with an interest in giving him an excessive amount of minutes he doesn't deserve, and you can hit any reasonable per game stats. Not saying that's what Lonzo is, just that what you argue can't happen can. Remember, Tyreke Evans averaged 20-5-5 for his rookie year.

No itís true. Whatís your point about Tyreke and his 20-5-5? There no point to be made
There. Tyreke is/was a solid nba basketball player with a career derailed by injuries, and is playing fantastic this year so far. Thereís really zero correlation.

prodigy
11-09-2017, 11:50 AM
In only ten games, Lonzo Ball has caught up to LeBron James with respect to the number of single-digit scoring games.

LBJ has 8; Lonzo ball has 8.

Side note: LBJ has more 50+ points games (11) than he doesn single digit scoring games (8).


EDIT: To those suggesting this is a troll thread, I see you point and understand it. I don't typically make 'troll' threads. I've been watching basketball for a LONG time. 30+ years. I have never seen any rookie play THIS bad ever. And given the hype he had coming in, this is worth talking about.

He is having an historically bad start. He is the first rookie EVER to shoot over 100 shots in his first ten games and come away shooting under 30% (https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&year_min=1984&year_max=2018&is_playoffs=N&age_min=0&age_max=99&game_num_type=season&game_num_min=1&game_num_max=10&season_start=1&season_end=1&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&c1stat=fga&c1comp=gt&c1val=100&c2stat=fg_pct&c2comp=lt&c2val=.35&order_by=fg_pct&order_by_asc=Y).

This is not just bad. It is historically bad. And it is historically bad from an unprecedented hype campaign (not with respect to volume, but with respect to media attention his dad garnered) that involved comparisons to Magic and a framing of this guy in the class of player that we typically put generational players in (LeBron, KD, Curry, Kobe, ect).

I hope the kid turns out great, but this performance so far is bizarrely woeful.

Not to mention all the hype that Lonzo will convince lebron, Paul George and every other FA to play on the Lakers. Right now everyone will be avoiding this guy.

Like you i understand hes young. But so are all other rookies lol.

IndyRealist
11-09-2017, 04:59 PM
No itís true. Whatís your point about Tyreke and his 20-5-5? There no point to be made
There. Tyreke is/was a solid nba basketball player with a career derailed by injuries, and is playing fantastic this year so far. Thereís really zero correlation.

Tyreke, aside from this year with the Grizz, has been average to below average. Hardly the historic "only X players averaged 20-5-5 their rookie year" nonsense. YOU CAN FORCE-FEED COUNTING STATS. 9-7-7 is just a lot of minutes and coaches saying "make sure Lonzo has the ball".