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lol, please
11-02-2017, 09:38 PM
The question is simple: What else must Durant do in his career in order for you to rank him ahead of The Black Mamba All-Time?

Lakers + Giants
11-02-2017, 09:41 PM
Oust Curry. Kobe did it with Shaq, that's the only way the Snake 1 ups the Mamba.

Chronz
11-02-2017, 10:05 PM
Prolly just ride out this 3peet and finish off his career with the dubs, if he can sustain his peak longer and or we see him lose some of that insane competitive advantage and actually suffer the amount of attention of a Kobe Bryant so much the better

warfelg
11-02-2017, 10:13 PM
No one out ranks the White Mamba.

As for Kobe, Durant needs about 3 more MVPs, 6 more finals appearances with 5 wins, a couple of scoring titles, and get other star players ousted.

GREATNESS ONE
11-02-2017, 10:17 PM
Put up more total points All-Time & win 4 in a row plus have more than 5 rings.

goingfor28
11-02-2017, 10:41 PM
Grow a pair

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More-Than-Most
11-02-2017, 10:42 PM
win 3 more rings or 2 rings where 1 comes like a lebron type thing when he went back to cleveland and some more MVPs... His numbers are rediculous compared to kobe... yes kobe has logevity but kobe never had a seaosn that was as good as any of durants top seasons.

WaDe03
11-02-2017, 10:51 PM
Not join a team that went 73-9 and eliminated him in the playoffs after he was up 3-1 and threw the series and create the most stacked team in history. Oh wait....

AllBall
11-02-2017, 11:24 PM
Grow a pair

The correct answer

TrueFan420
11-02-2017, 11:39 PM
He's already the better player. The question is will his resume be better. A couple more rings and longevity will clinch it.

YAALREADYKNO
11-02-2017, 11:43 PM
Grow a pair

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Oooooooohhh

nastynice
11-03-2017, 12:17 AM
He's already the better player. The question is will his resume be better. A couple more rings and longevity will clinch it.

Yup. Thatís no easy feat tho considering Kobe has 5 rings and played great ball up til what, 36?

He def has the capability tho, his offensive game is one of the deadliest, most beautiful Iíve seen (Kobeís actually is too). He needs a few more of those unstoppable modes in the playoffs to start getting into that discussion

nastynice
11-03-2017, 12:19 AM
Not join a team that went 73-9 and eliminated him in the playoffs after he was up 3-1 and threw the series and create the most stacked team in history. Oh wait....

Hah, bro they all said that about lebron. But what do they say now?

LOb0
11-03-2017, 12:20 AM
Win a couple rings without the aid of a 73 win team.

So basically, He'll never surpass Kobe.

nastynice
11-03-2017, 12:43 AM
Win a couple rings without the aid of a 73 win team.

So basically, He'll never surpass Kobe.

bro they only won 67 games last year, lol

Saddletramp
11-03-2017, 12:57 AM
Win a couple rings without the aid of a 73 win team.

So basically, He'll never surpass Kobe.

Yeah, pretty much. He can still get there but not being 1 of 4 stars on an already stacked team that didn't need him to win. Without Kobe those Shaq or Gasol teams aren't winning a title. Without Durant, that Warrior team already won one and almost won another.

More-Than-Most
11-03-2017, 01:16 AM
If we are going to **** on his ring should we **** on 3 of kobes getting it as 2nd fiddle to shaq? Unless you think Curry/Klay/Dray are gonna be top 5 players ever like Shaq... If durant wins 1 or 2 without this team then what?

More-Than-Most
11-03-2017, 01:17 AM
Yeah, pretty much. He can still get there but not being 1 of 4 stars on an already stacked team that didn't need him to win. Without Kobe those Shaq or Gasol teams aren't winning a title. Without Durant, that Warrior team already won one and almost won another.

Durant still did more in his run then kobe did in his.

YAALREADYKNO
11-03-2017, 01:32 AM
If we are going to **** on his ring should we **** on 3 of kobes getting it as 2nd fiddle to shaq? Unless you think Curry/Klay/Dray are gonna be top 5 players ever like Shaq... If durant wins 1 or 2 without this team then what?

Doesn't PSD do that already?

AllBall
11-03-2017, 01:42 AM
Hah, bro they all said that about lebron. But what do they say now?

Lebron joined Pierce and KG on the 73 win Celtics? Hmm, don't remember that one.


If we are going to **** on his ring should we **** on 3 of kobes getting it as 2nd fiddle to shaq? Unless you think Curry/Klay/Dray are gonna be top 5 players ever like Shaq... If durant wins 1 or 2 without this team then what?

Nope, Kobe and Shaq both won without each other. KD has yet to face any real adversity to get a ring.

jaydubb
11-03-2017, 01:51 AM
Durant still did more in his run then kobe did in his.You take Durant off the warriors and they still get to the nba finals.. You take kobe off the lakers and they lose to Sacramento or San Antonio or Portland in the semis.

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LOb0
11-03-2017, 02:03 AM
If we are going to **** on his ring should we **** on 3 of kobes getting it as 2nd fiddle to shaq? Unless you think Curry/Klay/Dray are gonna be top 5 players ever like Shaq... If durant wins 1 or 2 without this team then what?

To be fair, Shaq had zero rings before Kobe. Warriors were going to be the favorite every year for the foreseeable future even before Durant.

Plus Kobe proved he could get it done without Shaq later on. Best we got from Durant was a joke job against the Warriors before fleeing to join them.

At no point could you remove Kobe from the equation and the Lakers still win. Warriors already won in '15 would have won in '16 if not for ret*ard Draymond, and I would have picked them last year Durant or not.

nastynice
11-03-2017, 02:06 AM
Lebron joined Pierce and KG on the 73 win Celtics? Hmm, don't remember that one.



Nope, Kobe and Shaq both won without each other. KD has yet to face any real adversity to get a ring.

No, remember in 2010 lebron joined the third best and a top 10 player and thought they'd win over 8 rings in miami, and everyone was like oh he can never reach kobe or jordan status cuz of that, and he then proceeded to absolutely beast for 4 years, kinda how kd did last year, and then its like yeah uhhh, kinda doesnt' matter, cuz he kinda just tore **** up.

Remember that one?

LOb0
11-03-2017, 02:08 AM
No, remember in 2010 lebron joined the third best and a top 10 player and thought they'd win over 8 rings in miami, and everyone was like oh he can never reach kobe or jordan status cuz of that, and he then proceeded to absolutely beast for 4 years, kinda how kd did last year, and then its like yeah uhhh, kinda doesnt' matter, cuz he kinda just tore **** up.

Remember that one?

Only because Wade instantly got old/hurt after 2012. Unless Curry, Klay and Draymond develop knees like Wade it's unlikely to happen.

You basically had Bron, Bosh, hurt Wade and a crappy bench with one or 2 good role players. Not anywhere near the level of the GS.

nastynice
11-03-2017, 02:18 AM
Only because Wade instantly got old/hurt after 2012. Unless Curry, Klay and Draymond develop knees like Wade it's unlikely to happen.

You basically had Bron, Bosh, hurt Wade and a crappy bench with one or 2 good role players. Not anywhere near the level of the GS.

don't beat around the bush, just say yea you remember it :nod:

I like how you be tryina talk about that team like they scrubs, lmao!

LOb0
11-03-2017, 03:03 AM
don't beat around the bush, just say yea you remember it :nod:

I like how you be tryina talk about that team like they scrubs, lmao!

Far from scrubs. Just explaining the huge difference from 2012-2014 Wade and Bosh vs Curry, Klay and Draymond.

They could more than hold their own without Durant. Remove Bron from that Heat team and it completely crumbles.

nastynice
11-03-2017, 05:00 AM
Far from scrubs. Just explaining the huge difference from 2012-2014 Wade and Bosh vs Curry, Klay and Draymond.

They could more than hold their own without Durant. Remove Bron from that Heat team and it completely crumbles.

Sure, but that's not why no one could deny how great he is, his play on the court is why. His first year vs chicago and boston he started showing that. Clearly the best player on the court leading his team to the finals

Chronz
11-03-2017, 08:28 AM
Sure, but that's not why no one could deny how great he is, his play on the court is why. His first year vs chicago and boston he started showing that. Clearly the best player on the court leading his team to the finals
Nah I'm with him, its a huge difference that you can't just sure away. Trust me, everyone complaining wishes he settled for something closer to what LeBron did

AllBall
11-03-2017, 09:59 AM
No, remember in 2010 lebron joined the third best and a top 10 player and thought they'd win over 8 rings in miami, and everyone was like oh he can never reach kobe or jordan status cuz of that, and he then proceeded to absolutely beast for 4 years, kinda how kd did last year, and then its like yeah uhhh, kinda doesnt' matter, cuz he kinda just tore **** up.

Remember that one?

lol, that didn't change people's tune at all. Now, Lebron coming back from 3-1. THAT puts him in the legendary category. No adversity, no status.

valade16
11-03-2017, 12:10 PM
Kobe didn't start to enter the Top 10 ever discussion until he won his rings sans Shaq. Durant won't enter Top 10 ever discussion until he wins rings sans Curry.

Jamiecballer
11-03-2017, 12:27 PM
the answer in my opinion is basically stay healthy for the next 5 years or so and avoid a steep decline in that period and it's fairly straight forward after that.

valade16
11-03-2017, 12:33 PM
the answer in my opinion is basically stay healthy for the next 5 years or so and avoid a steep decline in that period and it's fairly straight forward after that.

So you think, if he does that, he'll be Top 10 all-time? Because Kobe is generally ranked in the back half of the Top 10 or just after (11-13).

nastynice
11-03-2017, 12:44 PM
Nah I'm with him, its a huge difference that you can't just sure away. Trust me, everyone complaining wishes he settled for something closer to what LeBron did

I know, and thatís my point, everyoneís wishing he did what lebron did, even tho everyone was hating on lebron for doing what he did. See how quickly they change?

Leftcoast_yg
11-03-2017, 12:49 PM
Drop 81 on the Thunder

Leftcoast_yg
11-03-2017, 12:51 PM
Durant still did more in his run then kobe did in his.

Lmao. Smush parker has more on his resume than eclipse embiid and all the other trash on that philly team.

mngopher35
11-03-2017, 01:09 PM
Ya I am with the group that says it will take a lot more than just joining this loaded team. Valade mentioned Kobe needing to prove himself without shaq to get bumped up to that level and that seems like what it would take for Durant.

AllBall
11-03-2017, 01:37 PM
I know, and thatís my point, everyoneís wishing he did what lebron did, even tho everyone was hating on lebron for doing what he did. See how quickly they change?

You are talking about two completely different things.

ONE - Not earning your place on the All Time list for not winning alone

TWO - Being knocked on for the team you chose to go to

When Lebron went back to Cleveland, two faded. When he won a championship in Cleveland from a 3-1 deficit, one faded.

KD will have One and Two as negative marks on his resume until his current situation changes drastically.

Jamiecballer
11-03-2017, 01:50 PM
So you think, if he does that, he'll be Top 10 all-time? Because Kobe is generally ranked in the back half of the Top 10 or just after (11-13).

pretty much. in my view he established himself as the better player quite a while ago and i'm not one who puts much value in the whole resume argument.

valade16
11-03-2017, 02:14 PM
pretty much. in my view he established himself as the better player quite a while ago and i'm not one who puts much value in the whole resume argument.

I'd be very interested to see your list. Would Curry be ahead of Durant? Are they both top 10 to you?

nastynice
11-03-2017, 02:23 PM
You are talking about two completely different things.

ONE - Not earning your place on the All Time list for not winning alone

TWO - Being knocked on for the team you chose to go to

When Lebron went back to Cleveland, two faded. When he won a championship in Cleveland from a 3-1 deficit, one faded.

KD will have One and Two as negative marks on his resume until his current situation changes drastically.

Lebron's greatness was undeniable in miami already. I don't know in what planet two faded, he left a beat up miami team to go to a cavs team with one of the best young talents in the game (who ended up developing into the best finisher in the game) and the consensus best power forward in the league (at the time). You don't remember lebron haters saying he did the same thing he did in miami? Cuz that was a pretty regular narrative.

He already started to overcome adversity year 1 in miami. Did you not see the celtics and bulls series? He absolutely carried the heat to victory of them, who would deny that?

You're just pulling things out of ur ***, lebron's greatness in no way hinged on those things you brought up...

nastynice
11-03-2017, 02:24 PM
Stop being a coat tail riding little *****

we're talkin bout kd, not chris paul ;)

sep11ie
11-03-2017, 02:25 PM
Stop being a coat tail riding little *****

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 02:36 PM
Honestly, you could make a strong case that he just needs to sustain this level of production for a few more years and win maybe probably two more titles with some continued stellar postseason play. In terms of peak production, Durant has already proved he's a better player at his best than Kobe at his best. What stands out when looking at Kobe's career, however, is his remarkable consistency over that 14-year stretch of excellence and his postseason resume.

But Durant's stretch in eight of the last nine seasons (I'm not counting his 27 games in 14-15) is already amazing in its own right. And his play in the Warriors title run last season helped bolster his nonexistent postseason resume.

All that being said, Durant jumping ship on the Thunder when he did to play for that stacked Warriors team will probably really devalue any titles he wins with Golden State historically. So you could make a case that, even thought rings are overvalued in historical conversations, he needs to come close to matching Kobe in terms of titles for him to surpass him.

And if that Warriors team somehow underachieves and fails to win another title or maybe only wins one more, then it could legitimately kill any chance Durant has at passing Kobe. The other wildcard in this that we can't possibly know is what could happen if Durant leaves Golden State at some point and plays with a less-talented core. If he could bring home a ring with a less talented group, similar to what Lebron did in Cleveland or what Kobe did with that second championship core, that would be a huge boost to his legacy. The likelihood of that happening, though, is really, really low.

Saddletramp
11-03-2017, 02:40 PM
I know, and thatís my point, everyoneís wishing he did what lebron did, even tho everyone was hating on lebron for doing what he did. See how quickly they change?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If KD joined up with a guy like Butler and a guy like Horford last year (and with an average at best bench), I wouldn't have given him one speck of ****. If Lebron would have joined the Celtics instead of the Heat, I'd have hated on him like many others (including you probably) would have.

And if KD joined the Cavs last year? Same hate that he's currently getting. No idea why it'd be any different since he joined GS.

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 02:43 PM
we're talkin bout kd, not chris paul ;)

Those two circumstances aren't remotely similar. Durant left a top 3 team in the league at his absolute peak to play for the single greatest regular season team in the history of the NBA. Paul left an underachieving Clippers team in turmoil near the tail end of his prime to play for a slightly better team with a brighter short-term outlook.

KnicksorBust
11-03-2017, 02:44 PM
I hate the idea that people think Durant can't be a top 10 player because he is on a great team. That makes no sense to me. There is no ceiling because of teammates just like there is no floor because of teammates. It's about how he plays and what he does with that roster that counts.

Saddletramp
11-03-2017, 02:46 PM
Honestly, you could make a strong case that he just needs to sustain this level of production for a few more years and win maybe probably two more titles with some continued stellar postseason play. In terms of peak production, Durant has already proved he's a better player at his best than Kobe at his best. What stands out when looking at Kobe's career, however, is his remarkable consistency over that 14-year stretch of excellence and his postseason resume.

But Durant's stretch in eight of the last nine seasons (I'm not counting his 27 games in 14-15) is already amazing in its own right. And his play in the Warriors title run last season helped bolster his nonexistent postseason resume.

All that being said, Durant jumping ship on the Thunder when he did to play for that stacked Warriors team will probably really devalue any titles he wins with Golden State historically. So you could make a case that, even thought rings are overvalued in historical conversations, he needs to come close to matching Kobe in terms of titles for him to surpass him.

And if that Warriors team somehow underachieves and fails to win another title or maybe only wins one more, then it could legitimately kill any chance Durant has at passing Kobe. The other wildcard in this that we can't possibly know is what could happen if Durant leaves Golden State at some point and plays with a less-talented core. If he could bring home a ring with a less talented group, similar to what Lebron did in Cleveland or what Kobe did with that second championship core, that would be a huge boost to his legacy. The likelihood of that happening, though, is really, really low.

And that's why (to me, at least), he won't make it. I've shat on Kobe for running off Shaq but to do that and then win more titles with a different group of guys took balls. I don't think KD will leave unless at least two of the others go first, then it'll probably be to another stacked team.

valade16
11-03-2017, 02:54 PM
I hate the idea that people think Durant can't be a top 10 player because he is on a great team. That makes no sense to me. There is no ceiling because of teammates just like there is no floor because of teammates. It's about how he plays and what he does with that roster that counts.

I get your point, but history suggests no one has been able to crack Top 10 without demonstrating they were able to be the undisputed best player on a championship team.

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 02:54 PM
I hate the idea that people think Durant can't be a top 10 player because he is on a great team. That makes no sense to me. There is no ceiling because of teammates just like there is no floor because of teammates. It's about how he plays and what he does with that roster that counts.

I don't agree with the sentiment that he can't be a top 10 player because he plays for the Warriors. However, by jumping ship, he basically put himself in a situation where that team HAS to be historically dominant. If he joins that team, and they only win the one title or maybe take one more ring before fizzling out, that's going to look really bad for his legacy.

However, if that Warriors team can win like 3-5 rings and Durant can give us 4-5 more seasons of this level of prime production, there's no reason why he doesn't at least belong in the top discussion or in a legitimate "Who's better: Kobe or Durant?" conversation.

GoferKing_
11-03-2017, 02:56 PM
Whatever he does he won't jump past Kobe.

mngopher35
11-03-2017, 02:57 PM
I hate the idea that people think Durant can't be a top 10 player because he is on a great team. That makes no sense to me. There is no ceiling because of teammates just like there is no floor because of teammates. It's about how he plays and what he does with that roster that counts.

Sure but the roster is set up to give him role player shots without creating or doing much work just playing off elite talent.

We have seen what he can do with a lot of help in okc (contender level with MVP caliber guy) and it generally lead to falling off come playoff time. Heck there has been one season since 2013 where Durant lead even his own team in rpm (and multiple other advanced stats come playoff time too). He's not the best offensive or defensive player on this current team (curry/green). This guy has had issue having more impact than his teammates overall let alone talking too 10 all time.

I won't give him extra credit for this extremely easy situation, to me he's still the same player until he can prove capable of leading (like Kobe without shaq or even what kyrie is now trying to do without lebron). Right now he's someone who generally hasn't stepped up when there was actually competition/challenges.

nastynice
11-03-2017, 03:01 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If KD joined up with a guy like Butler and a guy like Horford last year (and with an average at best bench), I wouldn't have given him one speck of ****. If Lebron would have joined the Celtics instead of the Heat, I'd have hated on him like many others (including you probably) would have.

And if KD joined the Cavs last year? Same hate that he's currently getting. No idea why it'd be any different since he joined GS.

oh, I already hated on him when he first joined the heat, haha. Not for joining the heat, but the way he left cleveland, just left a bad taste in my mouth. Him on the heat, I guess the he'll never be jordan narrative came up, but I dunno, at a certain point you just enjoy what you got in front of you, lebron and wade were special together, them alley oops n everything. Why hate on such beauty?

nastynice
11-03-2017, 03:04 PM
Those two circumstances aren't remotely similar. Durant left a top 3 team in the league at his absolute peak to play for the single greatest regular season team in the history of the NBA. Paul left an underachieving Clippers team in turmoil near the tail end of his prime to play for a slightly better team with a brighter short-term outlook.

As far as riding coattails, they're basically the same :)

nastynice
11-03-2017, 03:06 PM
Sure but the roster is set up to give him role player shots without creating or doing much work just playing off elite talent.

We have seen what he can do with a lot of help in okc (contender level with MVP caliber guy) and it generally lead to falling off come playoff time. Heck there has been one season since 2013 where Durant lead even his own team in rpm (and multiple other advanced stats come playoff time too). He's not the best offensive or defensive player on this current team (curry/green). This guy has had issue having more impact than his teammates overall let alone talking too 10 all time.

I won't give him extra credit for this extremely easy situation, to me he's still the same player until he can prove capable of leading (like Kobe without shaq or even what kyrie is now trying to do without lebron). Right now he's someone who generally hasn't stepped up when there was actually competition/challenges.

Did you not watch the playoffs last year? He stepped up time after time and lead this team

I got no issue with you holding kd's rank down because of the team he's on, but the reasoning that followed doesn't seem to make any sense

AllBall
11-03-2017, 03:07 PM
Lebron's greatness was undeniable in miami already. I don't know in what planet two faded, he left a beat up miami team to go to a cavs team with one of the best young talents in the game (who ended up developing into the best finisher in the game) and the consensus best power forward in the league (at the time). You don't remember lebron haters saying he did the same thing he did in miami? Cuz that was a pretty regular narrative.

He already started to overcome adversity year 1 in miami. Did you not see the celtics and bulls series? He absolutely carried the heat to victory of them, who would deny that?

You're just pulling things out of ur ***, lebron's greatness in no way hinged on those things you brought up...

You've lowered yourself to name calling. I'm sorry, I didn't know this offended you. I'm just telling how things played out for both Kobe and Lebron. Relax.

tredigs
11-03-2017, 03:07 PM
I hate the idea that people think Durant can't be a top 10 player because he is on a great team. That makes no sense to me. There is no ceiling because of teammates just like there is no floor because of teammates. It's about how he plays and what he does with that roster that counts.

They don't actually think that. They just want his legacy to be tarnished because they don't like a decision that another grown man made.

As for passing Kobe, I don't know, stay healthy and have more big-time playoff moments like he had in the Finals last year. Prime V Prime I already have Durant ahead of Kobe. He's a more unstoppable scorer, a more imposing defender and just a tougher matchup for defenses. And we know he does not need help to dominate on an individual level: We saw one season where Westbrook missed half the season (and Harden was gone), and KD put up a super efficient 32/7/6 while leading the league in all things advanced.

Ultimately the Thunder won nearly 60 games and lost a hard fought Western Conference Finals series against a Spurs team that made the Heatles look like a JV program in the Finals. That season for KD though was better than anything I've seen from Kobe (which is saying something, because Kobe was incredible and peaked very high).

nastynice
11-03-2017, 03:09 PM
I don't agree with the sentiment that he can't be a top 10 player because he plays for the Warriors. However, by jumping ship, he basically put himself in a situation where that team HAS to be historically dominant. If he joins that team, and they only win the one title or maybe take one more ring before fizzling out, that's going to look really bad for his legacy.

However, if that Warriors team can win like 3-5 rings and Durant can give us 4-5 more seasons of this level of prime production, there's no reason why he doesn't at least belong in the top discussion or in a legitimate "Who's better: Kobe or Durant?" conversation.

Pretty much this.

The bar is much higher for durant because of his situation. Really, its not about kd or steph, the bar is just very high for the warriors, just like in miami how 4 finals and 2 chips is kinda a disappointment (whereas any other franchise would be beyond satisfied with that), warriors have done the same to themselves. However, if they DO indeed rack these chips, like I been saying, at a certain point you just cannot deny greatness

nastynice
11-03-2017, 03:14 PM
You've lowered yourself to name calling. I'm sorry, I didn't know this offended you. I'm just telling how things played out for both Kobe and Lebron. Relax.

oh my bad, I didn't mean to call you a name or anything (i'm not entirely sure where I did). I'm def relaxed, I'm just saying that those two things you mentioned as being WHY lebron is held in such high stature, sure they are a part of it, but he started elevating to that status well before leaving miami. Hell, some may argue he started elevating to that status before leaving cleveland the first time.

Didnt mean to have an aggressive tone toward you, i'm just kinda a dick in general, lol

valade16
11-03-2017, 03:19 PM
When you look at the guys considered Top 10 ever (MJ, Bron, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, and Kareem) all of them won a ring as the undisputed best player on their team.

The only two cases where guys were on the same team winning (Kobe/Shaq and Magic/Kareem), all the players proved they could win a ring without the other. Kobe and Shaq both won rings without the other and Magic and Kareem did too.

He could do anything, but history is against him at this point. Especially if he doesn't even win as many rings as Kobe. If he only wins 4 rings, he has almost no shot.

mngopher35
11-03-2017, 03:22 PM
Lol the Warriors without Durant were likely headed for that kind of run (this was responding to mbt talking about 2 rings 4 years). I would say if the Warriors don't win a title with this core in any season it's a pretty big failure, the gap is huge.

Edit: like I think rings here are a given, he needs to find a way to separate himself more given any top star could win in his situation (even his team without him lol). It takes him proving he has actually gotten better as a player individually which will be tough without injury/change of scenery.

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 03:23 PM
Pretty much this.

The bar is much higher for durant because of his situation. Really, its not about kd or steph, the bar is just very high for the warriors, just like in miami how 4 finals and 2 chips is kinda a disappointment (whereas any other franchise would be beyond satisfied with that), warriors have done the same to themselves. However, if they DO indeed rack these chips, like I been saying, at a certain point you just cannot deny greatness

I think their expectations should be set even higher than Miami's. Like much higher. If in three years, Durant leaves and the best that team could do was four Finals appearances and two rings, I think that would be considered a pretty massive failure.

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 03:28 PM
When you look at the guys considered Top 10 ever (MJ, Bron, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, and Kareem) all of them won a ring as the undisputed best player on their team.

The only two cases where guys were on the same team winning (Kobe/Shaq and Magic/Kareem), all the players proved they could win a ring without the other. Kobe and Shaq both won rings without the other and Magic and Kareem did too.

He could do anything, but history is against him at this point. Especially if he doesn't even win as many rings as Kobe. If he only wins 4 rings, he has almost no shot.

I agree with the overall sentiment here, but I think you're wrong about Magic. Kareem won all five of the same rings in LA that Magic won. Granted, Kareem in 88 was not the same Kareem, but the dude was still playing 30 minutes of damn good basketball a game at age 40.

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 03:35 PM
As far as riding coattails, they're basically the same :)

OK, fine. But then you need to at least acknowledge that the coattails Durant joined are unquestionably fancier than the ones CP3 is riding on. Paul is holding on to the coattails of a solid, well-made coat from Men's Wearhouse. Durant is riding the coattails of some insanely expensive, custom-made coat hand-crafted with the finest fabric in the world for some Middle-Eastern prince whose parents own like half the oil on the globe.

tredigs
11-03-2017, 03:45 PM
Lol the Warriors without Durant were likely headed for that kind of run (this was responding to mbt talking about 2 rings 4 years). I would say if the Warriors don't win a title with this core in any season it's a pretty big failure, the gap is huge.

Edit: like I think rings here are a given, he needs to find a way to separate himself more given any top star could win in his situation (even his team without him lol). It takes him proving he has actually gotten better as a player individually which will be tough without injury/change of scenery.

Rings are never a given and championship-fatigue for teams that are making super deep runs every year are a real thing. Every team is trying to put it on them every night, and eventually that fatigue will probably set in for them. With as many stacked + well coached teams there are in the Western Conference, I could envision an upset in the next 2 years for sure (depending on how they all look going into the playoffs this year). So long as KD continues to show his worth as an All Time talent playing in his prime, he's going to be fine and rise on that list gradually/accordingly.

mngopher35
11-03-2017, 03:45 PM
Do people have Curry and Durant with a lot of separation in their rankings right now? If one jumps up that high does the other? Curry was arguably projecting higher than Durant before he joined on.

tredigs
11-03-2017, 03:49 PM
Do people have Curry and Durant with a lot of separation in their rankings right now? If one jumps up that high does the other? Curry was arguably projecting higher than Durant before he joined on.

I have them both in the low 20's and rising so long as they're both playing at prime levels/top-5 in the NBA. This particular season Curry could move up a little higher if he continues his current pace.

mngopher35
11-03-2017, 03:56 PM
Rings are never a given and championship-fatigue for teams that are making super deep runs every year are a real thing. Every team is trying to put it on them every night, and eventually that fatigue will probably set in for them. With as many stacked + well coached teams there are in the Western Conference, I could envision an upset in the next 2 years for sure (depending on how they all look going into the playoffs this year). So long as KD continues to show his worth as an All Time talent playing in his prime, he's going to be fine and rise on that list gradually/accordingly.

Sure an upset could happen and fatigue or injuries may play into the results etc. In the end though they are far and away the favorites that should easily be expected to win. We can hype up these other teams but you can take Durant off the Warriors and they are likely favorite still (any other team with 3 top 20 guys including a mvp level and dpoy type?).

I am just saying not winning would be the surprise here for them as the gap is so big still despite some other teams getting better.

I agree they will gradually move up but top 10 range is tough to get into. I actually think Curry had a decent chance with how the Warriors looked without KD. I truly thought they were already headed towards the next dynasty with their talent/fit/system and he would get a ton of credit for that with the awards likely to come. Now I just think they kind of water each other down in a sense and we never really get to see them challenged on that top level of overcoming major adversity etc. because the gap is just so big compared to other teams. Tough for them to prove they can overcome obstacles and carry a team to extreme levels given situation. It's great they can win together with this cast but that doesn't really do anything to separate them individually from other greats who just never were in a situation to this extreme.

valade16
11-03-2017, 04:01 PM
I agree with the overall sentiment here, but I think you're wrong about Magic. Kareem won all five of the same rings in LA that Magic won. Granted, Kareem in 88 was not the same Kareem, but the dude was still playing 30 minutes of damn good basketball a game at age 40.

You're right, I was wrong about Magic.

valade16
11-03-2017, 04:03 PM
Rings are never a given and championship-fatigue for teams that are making super deep runs every year are a real thing. Every team is trying to put it on them every night, and eventually that fatigue will probably set in for them. With as many stacked + well coached teams there are in the Western Conference, I could envision an upset in the next 2 years for sure (depending on how they all look going into the playoffs this year). So long as KD continues to show his worth as an All Time talent playing in his prime, he's going to be fine and rise on that list gradually/accordingly.

Any year the Warriors don't win the title with this core is a major disappointment for them.

mngopher35
11-03-2017, 04:03 PM
I have them both in the low 20's and rising so long as they're both playing at prime levels/top-5 in the NBA. This particular season Curry could move up a little higher if he continues his current pace.

Ya I think I am probably around there too, maybe high 25-30 range but would have to think about it some and they keep slowly moving up.

Just curious if people see Durant/Curry as kinda linked together on the list now or what? So if someone says Durant has a solid shot at top 10 over Kobe the same holds for Curry too knocking guys out in that range?

archdevil84
11-03-2017, 04:30 PM
career achievement wise he would need a couple of rings, some scoring titles, maybe another mvp. mentality wise he will never be on kobe's level

mightybosstone
11-03-2017, 04:41 PM
Rings are never a given and championship-fatigue for teams that are making super deep runs every year are a real thing. Every team is trying to put it on them every night, and eventually that fatigue will probably set in for them. With as many stacked + well coached teams there are in the Western Conference, I could envision an upset in the next 2 years for sure (depending on how they all look going into the playoffs this year). So long as KD continues to show his worth as an All Time talent playing in his prime, he's going to be fine and rise on that list gradually/accordingly.

OK, but there really shouldn't be a letdown with a team this talented barring another contender emerging with a similar level of talent. This isn't the Showtime Lakers, which had to contend with a damn nearly as talented Celtics squad in the 80s. This is the equivalent of Russell's Celtics and Jordan's Bulls in the 60s and 90s, respectively. Those teams had no peer at their peak, and neither do these Warriors.

A team this talented has literally no excuse to not win the title every year barring a major injury or another equally-talented contender emerging. And until that contender emerges or the Warriors have a substantial shake up, that team had better win the championship every season. If they don't, that's a monumental failure.

tredigs
11-03-2017, 07:11 PM
OK, but there really shouldn't be a letdown with a team this talented barring another contender emerging with a similar level of talent. This isn't the Showtime Lakers, which had to contend with a damn nearly as talented Celtics squad in the 80s. This is the equivalent of Russell's Celtics and Jordan's Bulls in the 60s and 90s, respectively. Those teams had no peer at their peak, and neither do these Warriors.

A team this talented has literally no excuse to not win the title every year barring a major injury or another equally-talented contender emerging. And until that contender emerges or the Warriors have a substantial shake up, that team had better win the championship every season. If they don't, that's a monumental failure.

They've been competing against a player some will call the GOAT when he retires with an extremely talented All Star point guard and another All Star power forward. That team would have wiped the floor with quite a few former championship winners. This year, I don't see it from them, but on the flip side you have an extremely talented and star studded Western Conference forming. With deep playoff runs year after year, nothing is guaranteed. NOBODY thought the Heatles would win just 2 titles when they were first formed. But here we are, and the Warriors have a much tougher road to each Finals then they did.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-03-2017, 07:18 PM
Stop posting on fake twitter accounts would be a good start.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-03-2017, 07:19 PM
Pretty much this.

The bar is much higher for durant because of his situation. Really, its not about kd or steph, the bar is just very high for the warriors, just like in miami how 4 finals and 2 chips is kinda a disappointment (whereas any other franchise would be beyond satisfied with that), warriors have done the same to themselves. However, if they DO indeed rack these chips, like I been saying, at a certain point you just cannot deny greatness

Well KD did try to take a massive shortcut. Only makes sense to expect more from him now to even the odds.

valade16
11-03-2017, 08:04 PM
They've been competing against a player some will call the GOAT when he retires with an extremely talented All Star point guard and another All Star power forward. That team would have wiped the floor with quite a few former championship winners. This year, I don't see it from them, but on the flip side you have an extremely talented and star studded Western Conference forming. With deep playoff runs year after year, nothing is guaranteed. NOBODY thought the Heatles would win just 2 titles when they were first formed. But here we are, and the Warriors have a much tougher road to each Finals then they did.

And many believe the Heat underachieved because of that. Lots could happen, but would be a dissapointment if they donít win several more titles from this point forward.

Redrum187
11-03-2017, 09:39 PM
I find it difficult to believe Durant will even get passed Dirk Nowitzki on the All Time resume list... even less with Kobe.

What Dirk did in 2011 has never been done before. Durant joining a loaded roster will definite get him his rings, but not all rings count the same. I need to see Durant do something Dirk'esque (2011) before I put him in the Dirk/Malone/Barkley/KG tier.

THE MTL
11-03-2017, 09:56 PM
Grow a pair

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I was going to say the exact thing!

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 09:31 AM
I find it difficult to believe Durant will even get passed Dirk Nowitzki on the All Time resume list... even less with Kobe.

What Dirk did in 2011 has never been done before. Durant joining a loaded roster will definite get him his rings, but not all rings count the same. I need to see Durant do something Dirk'esque (2011) before I put him in the Dirk/Malone/Barkley/KG tier.

What about his performance in the finals last year? He was exceptional and won a well deserved FMVP. How many times does he have to do that to equal Dirk's one?

mightybosstone
11-04-2017, 09:34 AM
They've been competing against a player some will call the GOAT when he retires with an extremely talented All Star point guard and another All Star power forward. That team would have wiped the floor with quite a few former championship winners. This year, I don't see it from them, but on the flip side you have an extremely talented and star studded Western Conference forming. With deep playoff runs year after year, nothing is guaranteed. NOBODY thought the Heatles would win just 2 titles when they were first formed. But here we are, and the Warriors have a much tougher road to each Finals then they did.
The path is irrelevant to me. I was about to post this super long reply breaking down how the Heat's path wasn't nearly the cakewalk that everyone makes it out to be, but we've gone down that road before, and I'm trying to stay on topic. Bottom line, the Warriors are the most talented team and will have more deep postseason experience that pretty much every team they face in the West every season. So they have no excuses.

Durant made this decision to come to Golden State, and nobody forced his hand to do so. He knew that this decision would have some kind of an impact on his legacy, or else he wouldn't have made the move in the first place. But while it's nice to have that first ring, and the titles will certainly help his career resume, the fact that he's going to win these rings with a team that was already the best team in the league before he arrived will ultimately devalue them a bit.

And that's not to say it wasn't the right move for his career. Multiple rings on the most talented team in NBA history is a hell of a lot better than no rings at all. I'd rather be Scottie Pippen or Kevin McHale than Dominique Wilkins or George Gervin. But those guys have their limitations in all-time conversations, and Durant may now as well depending on how his career pans out.

mightybosstone
11-04-2017, 09:46 AM
What about his performance in the finals last year? He was exceptional and won a well deserved FMVP. How many times does he have to do that to equal Dirk's one?
That's actually a really interesting question. I think everyone would agree that not every championship for every player has the same value, nor does every Finals MVP, and that Dallas title run was just such an incredible run for Dirk. They were a 3 seed that had to come out of the West and face the newly-formed Heatles, and literally nobody expected them to win the championship that year. And while their team was extremely well-balanced, the second and third best players on that squad were Tyson freaking Chandler and Jason Terry.

Dirk's ring in 2011 would have to be among the 5-10 highest of all all-time for me. So if we rank titles/Finals MVPs for players on a scale of 1-10, let's give it a 9-10. Whereas Durant joined a squad that was already the favorite and easily squashed inferior competition to one of the easiest title runs ever. So I'd give it like a 3-4.
Obviously this is not especially scientific or well-researched, but it seems reasonable that it would take Durant three rings on that Warriors team to match Dirk's one ring in 2011.

It's probably the nerd in me taking over, but now I kind of want to assign values to every ring from every all-time great and compare their postseason resumes.

AllBall
11-04-2017, 10:37 AM
When you look at the guys considered Top 10 ever (MJ, Bron, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, and Kareem) all of them won a ring as the undisputed best player on their team.

The only two cases where guys were on the same team winning (Kobe/Shaq and Magic/Kareem), all the players proved they could win a ring without the other. Kobe and Shaq both won rings without the other and Magic and Kareem did too.

He could do anything, but history is against him at this point. Especially if he doesn't even win as many rings as Kobe. If he only wins 4 rings, he has almost no shot.

Exactly!

Hawkeye15
11-04-2017, 10:59 AM
He needs to win a lot more rings, and at least 1 of them needs to come with some adversity. Winning a fight when you have all the big martial arts masters on your side just doesn't matter as much. Durant's pansy move for sure will limit how high he can go to me personally, unless his situation changes, and we all know in the world of sports things can change in an instant.

Currently constructed, if he never leaves GS, or does leave after his prime, and he/Curry/Green all stayed relatively healthy and gangbanged the league for 4-5 years? Does nothing for me.

Barring a situational change/injuries, or something that makes Durant rise above and beyond to win, he finishes 15-25 for me.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2017, 11:12 AM
What about his performance in the finals last year? He was exceptional and won a well deserved FMVP. How many times does he have to do that to equal Dirk's one?

ever seen a "superstar" with that much freedom? Ever? The defense treated him like a regular player, not anything special or all time worthy..

Guys in the top 10-11 all time won ring(s) as the #1 clearly, and many/most with adversity. Are we even sure Durant is his teams best player? Meh

Not all championships or MVP's are the same. Durant didn't go above and beyond, or face even a single sliver of adversity on his way to a ring. There is nothing memorable about his playoff run.

Federal Reserve
11-04-2017, 02:12 PM
ever seen a "superstar" with that much freedom? Ever? The defense treated him like a regular player, not anything special or all time worthy..

Guys in the top 10-11 all time won ring(s) as the #1 clearly, and many/most with adversity. Are we even sure Durant is his teams best player? Meh

Not all championships or MVP's are the same. Durant didn't go above and beyond, or face even a single sliver of adversity on his way to a ring. There is nothing memorable about his playoff run.

From 2004, the Lakers have been favored by Vegas in every finals series that they were in. I imagine that the same applies for the three titles won starting in 2000. Kobe had the best front court in the NBA every year they won a championship. He's hardly faced the adversity you are talking about. Shaq helped Kobe win the first three rings, Kobe beat the Magic in the first finals, and he beat a Garnett-less (game 7) Celtics. That's hardly the adversity you mentioned.

I agree that Durant had an easier finals than any of Kobe's, but beating the Cavs 4-1 (the Cavs needed a historic performance to win one) is an impressive margin. The Warriors manhandled Lebron's squad.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 02:27 PM
What about his performance in the finals last year? He was exceptional and won a well deserved FMVP. How many times does he have to do that to equal Dirk's one?
That's actually a really interesting question. I think everyone would agree that not every championship for every player has the same value, nor does every Finals MVP, and that Dallas title run was just such an incredible run for Dirk. They were a 3 seed that had to come out of the West and face the newly-formed Heatles, and literally nobody expected them to win the championship that year. And while their team was extremely well-balanced, the second and third best players on that squad were Tyson freaking Chandler and Jason Terry.

Dirk's ring in 2011 would have to be among the 5-10 highest of all all-time for me. So if we rank titles/Finals MVPs for players on a scale of 1-10, let's give it a 9-10. Whereas Durant joined a squad that was already the favorite and easily squashed inferior competition to one of the easiest title runs ever. So I'd give it like a 3-4.
Obviously this is not especially scientific or well-researched, but it seems reasonable that it would take Durant three rings on that Warriors team to match Dirk's one ring in 2011.

It's probably the nerd in me taking over, but now I kind of want to assign values to every ring from every all-time great and compare their postseason resumes.

If we look at talent of teams that seems fair but in a single series shouldn't production of teammates be weighed in? I haven't crunched the numbers and maybe I am off here(didnt cheat and bballref yet) but my gut says Terry played that series on an all-nba level.

FlashBolt
11-04-2017, 03:18 PM
Compare 2016 NBA Finals LeBron winning vs 2017 NBA Finals Durant winning... there is a huge difference in terms of what it took to win that. Durant winning might be the most pedestrian championship Finals MVP and it's why people rarely even mentioned the Warriors at all even though they won.. people already came into acceptance that Warriors would win when KD joined. No shock factor or WOW value at all. It's impossible to view KD as an all-time great of the likes of LeBron, Shaq, MJ, etc., when his team can stroll into the Finals and be the favorites even without him.

mngopher35
11-04-2017, 03:20 PM
If we look at talent of teams that seems fair but in a single series shouldn't production of teammates be weighed in? I haven't crunched the numbers and maybe I am off here(didnt cheat and bballref yet) but my gut says Terry played that series on an all-nba level.

Sure but there is a difference between being that main gravity creator for the team (Dirk, Shaq when next to Kobe, Curry on the Warriors) and a scorer playing great off said attention. Durant is in a sense the Jason Terry or young Kobe in these scenarios as the offense isn't being run through him and defenses are focusing more on other more valuable threats (I have stated how Durant's on/off numbers and rpm type numbers always lower than other teammates and imo it's because usually he is not the driving force to said offenses in the same sense as those creators instead playing off their attention for easy looks). Obviously he is more valuable as an individual than these guys (yes even young Kobe) but in the overall sense of having an easy chance to boost individual numbers due to lack of attention etc the idea is the same and he benefits. So while production matters, so does the entire context like how teams play/prepare for stars and who is leading/creating opportunities for the team etc.

Right now he joined a team that probably ends up being favorite even if he got injured for the year. If you decide to join a core that was already a champion and set the wins record at 73 without you even playing then how is winning a ring any sort of huge bonus on a legacy when it was being done before and likely without you moving forward either way? I am not saying he isn't a great player but he is the one who put himself in a situation where there is very little way for him to prove himself on an all time level without some individual greatness/adversity and that doesn't happen when you aren't the best player on either end for your team and the gap in the league is so wide once you joined.

FlashBolt
11-04-2017, 03:47 PM
Sure but there is a difference between being that main gravity creator for the team (Dirk, Shaq when next to Kobe, Curry on the Warriors) and a scorer playing great off said attention. Durant is in a sense the Jason Terry or young Kobe in these scenarios as the offense isn't being run through him and defenses are focusing more on other more valuable threats (I have stated how Durant's on/off numbers and rpm type numbers always lower than other teammates and imo it's because usually he is not the driving force to said offenses in the same sense as those creators instead playing off their attention for easy looks). Obviously he is more valuable as an individual than these guys (yes even young Kobe) but in the overall sense of having an easy chance to boost individual numbers due to lack of attention etc the idea is the same and he benefits. So while production matters, so does the entire context like how teams play/prepare for stars and who is leading/creating opportunities for the team etc.

Right now he joined a team that probably ends up being favorite even if he got injured for the year. If you decide to join a core that was already a champion and set the wins record at 73 without you even playing then how is winning a ring any sort of huge bonus on a legacy when it was being done before and likely without you moving forward either way? I am not saying he isn't a great player but he is the one who put himself in a situation where there is very little way for him to prove himself on an all time level without some individual greatness/adversity and that doesn't happen when you aren't the best player on either end for your team and the gap in the league is so wide once you joined.

Kevin Durant is like insurance. He's only there in case something really goes wrong and Warriors just happen to screw up. They probably run zero plays for the guy and just tell him to do what he can. I mean, defensively, he's looking great out there in terms of impact but he's always been like that for us. The only thing that changed is his perceived defensive ability is now being done in pick-and-choose moments whereas with us, he had to be the primary defender in some cases. I don't even think he is sweating half the time because there's a lack of having to carry the load.

AllBall
11-04-2017, 04:11 PM
From 2004, the Lakers have been favored by Vegas in every finals series that they were in. I imagine that the same applies for the three titles won starting in 2000. Kobe had the best front court in the NBA every year they won a championship. He's hardly faced the adversity you are talking about. Shaq helped Kobe win the first three rings, Kobe beat the Magic in the first finals, and he beat a Garnett-less (game 7) Celtics. That's hardly the adversity you mentioned.

I agree that Durant had an easier finals than any of Kobe's, but beating the Cavs 4-1 (the Cavs needed a historic performance to win one) is an impressive margin. The Warriors manhandled Lebron's squad.

Doesn't matter. Kobe won without Shaq and as the undisputed best player on the team.

nastynice
11-04-2017, 04:22 PM
Lol the Warriors without Durant were likely headed for that kind of run (this was responding to mbt talking about 2 rings 4 years). I would say if the Warriors don't win a title with this core in any season it's a pretty big failure, the gap is huge.

Edit: like I think rings here are a given, he needs to find a way to separate himself more given any top star could win in his situation (even his team without him lol). It takes him proving he has actually gotten better as a player individually which will be tough without injury/change of scenery.

I agree with everything except the change of scenery part.

I think last year he already took his status up a notch, he absolutely dominated throughout the playoffs in big moments, he arguably outplayed one of the greatest players in history. It won't be easy, but there's still so many different ways this story can be written, its hard to say anything right now.

nastynice
11-04-2017, 04:33 PM
From 2004, the Lakers have been favored by Vegas in every finals series that they were in. I imagine that the same applies for the three titles won starting in 2000. Kobe had the best front court in the NBA every year they won a championship. He's hardly faced the adversity you are talking about. Shaq helped Kobe win the first three rings, Kobe beat the Magic in the first finals, and he beat a Garnett-less (game 7) Celtics. That's hardly the adversity you mentioned.

I agree that Durant had an easier finals than any of Kobe's, but beating the Cavs 4-1 (the Cavs needed a historic performance to win one) is an impressive margin. The Warriors manhandled Lebron's squad.

Yea, this adversity thing is getting blown way out of proportion. So Dirk faced more adversity in his chip than shaq did in all his combined, so what? That doesn't make Dirk a better player.

nastynice
11-04-2017, 04:36 PM
ever seen a "superstar" with that much freedom? Ever? The defense treated him like a regular player, not anything special or all time worthy..

Guys in the top 10-11 all time won ring(s) as the #1 clearly, and many/most with adversity. Are we even sure Durant is his teams best player? Meh

Not all championships or MVP's are the same. Durant didn't go above and beyond, or face even a single sliver of adversity on his way to a ring. There is nothing memorable about his playoff run.

oh, you musta missed that shot at the end of game 3. Youtube it :)

nastynice
11-04-2017, 04:41 PM
I think their expectations should be set even higher than Miami's. Like much higher. If in three years, Durant leaves and the best that team could do was four Finals appearances and two rings, I think that would be considered a pretty massive failure.

oh yea, to my understanding KD's contract was set up in a way that after 3 years in GS he will sign a long term max contract either here or somewhere else. So since early last year, when I started to realize just how absolutely filthy this team actually is, its been 3 chips or bust. Got 1, 2 to go, but anything less than 3 rings in this span would def leave a sour taste in my mouth.

And if he decides to stay after the 3 years, well then goddam, we just might see one of the most amazing things that will ever take place in sports :nod: lol

Gotta stay healthy, gotta stay hungry. If those two hold, we got a shot at something pretty crazy here

Raps18-19 Champ
11-04-2017, 04:41 PM
KD is a better player than Kobe but Kobe accomplished things facing adversity. KD put himself in a position where he didn't have to face adversity.

I'm sure he could have accomplished what Kobe did under similar circumstances but it's clear he didn't want that and wanted things easier. So if people rank him below Kobe because of it, I am 100% fine with that.

nastynice
11-04-2017, 04:42 PM
OK, fine. But then you need to at least acknowledge that the coattails Durant joined are unquestionably fancier than the ones CP3 is riding on. Paul is holding on to the coattails of a solid, well-made coat from Men's Wearhouse. Durant is riding the coattails of some insanely expensive, custom-made coat hand-crafted with the finest fabric in the world for some Middle-Eastern prince whose parents own like half the oil on the globe.

I never denied that, lol

nastynice
11-04-2017, 04:49 PM
KD is a better player than Kobe

He's longer, he's probably more unguardable in a 1 on 1 situation, but man kobe, I'll say this straight up, kobe had the best and most diverse skillset for a scorer I ever seen, even better than jordan.

mightybosstone
11-04-2017, 04:51 PM
If we look at talent of teams that seems fair but in a single series shouldn't production of teammates be weighed in? I haven't crunched the numbers and maybe I am off here(didnt cheat and bballref yet) but my gut says Terry played that series on an all-nba level.

Mmm... He was great that postseason, don't get me wrong. But nobody would confuse Jason Terry as a No. 2 with Steph Curry or peak Dwyane Wade. He averaged like 18 a game on really efficient shooting numbers in the Finals, and his postseason averages that season were right around that. But that's really all the Jet provided, even at his peak, was scoring.

Even if we compare Jet's numbers that postseason (which were far better than his regular season averages), his production wouldn't touch that of the majority of No. 2 guys on championship teams historically.

lol, please
11-04-2017, 07:56 PM
Rings are never a given and championship-fatigue for teams that are making super deep runs every year are a real thing. Every team is trying to put it on them every night, and eventually that fatigue will probably set in for them. With as many stacked + well coached teams there are in the Western Conference, I could envision an upset in the next 2 years for sure (depending on how they all look going into the playoffs this year). So long as KD continues to show his worth as an All Time talent playing in his prime, he's going to be fine and rise on that list gradually/accordingly.
Rockets

lol, please
11-04-2017, 07:58 PM
The path is irrelevant to me. I was about to post this super long reply breaking down how the Heat's path wasn't nearly the cakewalk that everyone makes it out to be, but we've gone down that road before, and I'm trying to stay on topic. Bottom line, the Warriors are the most talented team and will have more deep postseason experience that pretty much every team they face in the West every season. So they have no excuses.

Durant made this decision to come to Golden State, and nobody forced his hand to do so. He knew that this decision would have some kind of an impact on his legacy, or else he wouldn't have made the move in the first place. But while it's nice to have that first ring, and the titles will certainly help his career resume, the fact that he's going to win these rings with a team that was already the best team in the league before he arrived will ultimately devalue them a bit.

And that's not to say it wasn't the right move for his career. Multiple rings on the most talented team in NBA history is a hell of a lot better than no rings at all. I'd rather be Scottie Pippen or Kevin McHale than Dominique Wilkins or George Gervin. But those guys have their limitations in all-time conversations, and Durant may now as well depending on how his career pans out.

The East was and has been weaker, historically, and compared to the western conference.

Chronz
11-04-2017, 09:47 PM
I know, and thatís my point, everyoneís wishing he did what lebron did, even tho everyone was hating on lebron for doing what he did. See how quickly they change?

Nah not everyone and it wasn't this embarrassing. It was easy to defend Bron back then, its always going to be impossible to defend kd

lol, please
11-04-2017, 11:33 PM
Nah not everyone and it wasn't this embarrassing. It was easy to defend Bron back then, its always going to be impossible to defend kdHow? Why? What LeBron did is worse.

Durant never promised OKC a thing.

LeBron ran off to join a super team ffs. Where is the leadership?

Sent from my Note 5 via Tapatalk

More-Than-Most
11-05-2017, 12:03 AM
How? Why? What LeBron did is worse.

Durant never promised OKC a thing.

LeBron ran off to join a super team ffs. Where is the leadership?

Sent from my Note 5 via Tapatalk

:laugh:

So delusional

TylerSL
11-05-2017, 12:07 AM
Well right now Durant's per game averages are better than Kobe's

Kobe's career averages-25.0 points, 5.2 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 0.9 steals with a .447/.329/.837 shooting line.
Durant's career averages-25.2 points, 7.8 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.1 blocks with a .488/.381/.881 line

However Kobe has almost twice as many games played as Durant, 1346 to 712, and four more NBA championships. For Durant to pass Kobe all time, he has to continue his excellence on the court for several more years, at least three or four. He has to close the longevity gap that Kobe holds over him, and he has to win more rings too. I'm not one to think that ring count determines your all time ranking, but it does help. In Durant's case specifically, he has to win more, a lot more.

Durant joined the team that beat him in the WCF after he was the primary reason his team lost in the first place. He then blamed his reason for leaving on Russell Westbrook and the rest of his old teammates, in fact that's something he's still doing. No matter what he accomplishes in Golden State, that's low. That said, being a jerk doesn't disqualify you from becoming one of the greatest players of all time.

Durant needs time, mostly. He has to stay healthy and continue his greatness for years, Kobe was a great player for 17 seasons, not counting his first two seasons, nor his last. Durant's in his 11th year. On his current trajectory he'll pass Kobe, but it will be a while before that actually happens.

TylerSL
11-05-2017, 12:32 AM
How? Why? What LeBron did is worse.

Durant never promised OKC a thing.

LeBron ran off to join a super team ffs. Where is the leadership?

Sent from my Note 5 via Tapatalk

You realize Durant joined a super team right? The Miami Heat were a super team because Lebron James joined them, where as the Golden State Warriors were a super a super team before Durant even showed up. If Lebron's Heat were a super team, Durant's Warriors are super duper team. Lebron created a super team, Durant hopped on the bandwagon and joined one. He was also the reason OKC lost to the very team he joined. How weak is that??

Again, the Warriors were 140-24, including breaking the single season wins record, in the two previous seasons before Durant showed up. They had made two consecutive appearances in the NBA Finals and even won a championship. Their star player, Stephen Curry, had won two consecutive league MVP awards. The Warriors were loaded, with Curry/Thompson/Draymond as their big 3, with Barnes, Iguodala, Bogut, Livingston, Ezeli, Barbosa, and Speights as a supporting cast. Those teams were legitimately ten deep and drew comparisons to other super teams. You can't say what Lebron did was worse and be taken seriously.

Chronz
11-05-2017, 12:39 AM
How? Why? What LeBron did is worse.

Durant never promised OKC a thing.

LeBron ran off to join a super team ffs. Where is the leadership?

Sent from my Note 5 via Tapatalk

Good one

nastynice
11-05-2017, 12:52 AM
Nah not everyone and it wasn't this embarrassing. It was easy to defend Bron back then, its always going to be impossible to defend kd

Its easy to say that now, especially after what kd did, but back then was a lil diff

Legend_23
11-05-2017, 01:18 AM
Man, the hate for Jellybean is real on here huh..?
I'm going to say that I'm a huge fan of Durant's overall game. 7 foot, 7'6 reach or something ridiculous..Sniper range, ability to finish at the rim...One of a kind player, for sure. Don't compare K.D at this stage with an ALL-TIME great. Top 5 player who ever played the game - regardless of what you dummies voted for on the other forum (not having Bryant in top 10 all time). "How quickly they forget..." Are all of you on here like Kings / Timberwolves fans? Give me a freaking break. IF Kobe's peers list him as top 10, if Kevin himself said that Kobe is the greatest of their generation, a legend, greatest Laker of all time... Some of you guys just really hate him that much eh??
To answer the O.P's question, Durant has to win 4 + rings. 2 more finals MVP's, 2 season MVP's. 3 Scoring titles. 7+ 1st team all NBA. Has to be the clear cut go-to guy in which ever team he plays for. Has to be an assassin, stone cold killer. Has to take the responsibility for whatever goes wrong during his NBA career and for all the downfalls that his team might experience. Has to be the guy other NBA players talk about admiring and fearing on the court. Has to score 82 in a game. And finally, has to score 62 in his final game, putting a "W" on his last game playing for a below average team the last time he steps on the floor.

LOb0
11-05-2017, 01:24 AM
Well right now Durant's per game averages are better than Kobe's

Kobe's career averages-25.0 points, 5.2 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 0.9 steals with a .447/.329/.837 shooting line.
Durant's career averages-25.2 points, 7.8 rebounds, 4.7 assists, 1.2 steals, 1.1 blocks with a .488/.381/.881 line

However Kobe has almost twice as many games played as Durant, 1346 to 712, and four more NBA championships. For Durant to pass Kobe all time, he has to continue his excellence on the court for several more years, at least three or four. He has to close the longevity gap that Kobe holds over him, and he has to win more rings too. I'm not one to think that ring count determines your all time ranking, but it does help. In Durant's case specifically, he has to win more, a lot more.

Durant joined the team that beat him in the WCF after he was the primary reason his team lost in the first place. He then blamed his reason for leaving on Russell Westbrook and the rest of his old teammates, in fact that's something he's still doing. No matter what he accomplishes in Golden State, that's low. That said, being a jerk doesn't disqualify you from becoming one of the greatest players of all time.

Durant needs time, mostly. He has to stay healthy and continue his greatness for years, Kobe was a great player for 17 seasons, not counting his first two seasons, nor his last. Durant's in his 11th year. On his current trajectory he'll pass Kobe, but it will be a while before that actually happens.

Doesn't matter. It will be tainted. How many rings would Kobe have if he ran to the Spurs at his peak?

Chronz
11-05-2017, 01:44 AM
Its easy to say that now, especially after what kd did, but back then was a lil diff

Its incredibly easy now but it was pretty easy back then too. That's just how different this is

Bostonjorge
11-05-2017, 02:15 AM
Doesn't matter. It will be tainted. How many rings would Kobe have if he ran to the Spurs at his peak?

Kobe would have every scoring record imagineable. You give Kobe a primetime Duncan. Great bench with Ginobli and great defenders like Browen. Super teams would of started much earlier to try and stop a Super Spurs team.

tredigs
11-05-2017, 02:29 AM
Edit: Let the children argue.

Switch
11-05-2017, 04:28 AM
Durant can win next 5 titles. He still won't be better than Kobe in my book. Simply because he ran off to join a super team

MTone8788
11-05-2017, 08:19 AM
I'm tired of the "super team" narratives. Kobe and Shaq were an all time super duo. Kobe with Gasol, Bynum, Odom were great together. Not to mention they also had future Hall of Famer Adam Morrison to carry them.

My point is, all NBA championship teams have great talent throughout their roster in one way or another so call them "super teams" or whatever you want. The object is to win, and these "super teams" are created within the rules of the NBA.

That said, I don't think Durant will pass Kobe. Kobe played for 20 years, 18x an all star, made 12 all-defensive teams (9 of them 1st), and is overall a more iconic player worldwide.

Chronz
11-05-2017, 11:42 AM
I'm tired of the "super team" narratives. Kobe and Shaq were an all time super duo. Kobe with Gasol, Bynum, Odom were great together. Not to mention they also had future Hall of Famer Adam Morrison to carry them.

My point is, all NBA championship teams have great talent throughout their roster in one way or another so call them "super teams" or whatever you want. The object is to win, and these "super teams" are created within the rules of the NBA.

That said, I don't think Durant will pass Kobe. Kobe played for 20 years, 18x an all star, made 12 all-defensive teams (9 of them 1st), and is overall a more iconic player worldwide.
As great as those teams you listed are, imagine them adding a top 3 player to that core. Its unprecedented, hence it's relevance to this conversation. I'm not convinced kd was truly better, definitely playing in an easier era imo.

Saddletramp
11-05-2017, 01:07 PM
How? Why? What LeBron did is worse.

Durant never promised OKC a thing.

LeBron ran off to join a super team ffs. Where is the leadership?

Sent from my Note 5 via Tapatalk

There's that trolling that I heard was "fun and nuanced".

Looks more pathetically laughable and flat out wrong to me.

IKnowHoops
11-05-2017, 01:26 PM
Hes better than Kobe so for me, heís passed Kobe already.

tredigs
11-05-2017, 01:54 PM
KD currently ranks 14th All Time in MVP award shares - which is a pretty solid metric to sort of find a person's value over time relative to their own league. Kobe is 10th. In that regard, he's inching up on him.

The top 13 for reference are Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Shaq, Karl Malone, Duncan, Kobe, Wilt, DR J, D. Rob. Other than swapping Hakeem (19th) with the Mailman, that's basically most people's top 15. Food for thought.

europagnpilgrim
11-05-2017, 01:59 PM
Man, the hate for Jellybean is real on here huh..?
I'm going to say that I'm a huge fan of Durant's overall game. 7 foot, 7'6 reach or something ridiculous..Sniper range, ability to finish at the rim...One of a kind player, for sure. Don't compare K.D at this stage with an ALL-TIME great. Top 5 player who ever played the game - regardless of what you dummies voted for on the other forum (not having Bryant in top 10 all time). "How quickly they forget..." Are all of you on here like Kings / Timberwolves fans? Give me a freaking break. IF Kobe's peers list him as top 10, if Kevin himself said that Kobe is the greatest of their generation, a legend, greatest Laker of all time... Some of you guys just really hate him that much eh??
To answer the O.P's question, Durant has to win 4 + rings. 2 more finals MVP's, 2 season MVP's. 3 Scoring titles. 7+ 1st team all NBA. Has to be the clear cut go-to guy in which ever team he plays for. Has to be an assassin, stone cold killer. Has to take the responsibility for whatever goes wrong during his NBA career and for all the downfalls that his team might experience. Has to be the guy other NBA players talk about admiring and fearing on the court. Has to score 82 in a game. And finally, has to score 62 in his final game, putting a "W" on his last game playing for a below average team the last time he steps on the floor.

Compare Kobe vs Durant for first 10 yrs to get a better grip when saying who was better or whatever

then from there put yourself in a Owner/GM position and you have the 1st pick and those 2 players are there as the top players in the draft, who are you taking?

that's how you know who is the better player because you will always take the most dominant better player a quadrillion times out of a quadrillion, KD came into the league looking to turn a franchise around, Kobe was drafted/traded for by a 50 win Lakers team who just acquired Shaq that same offseason, KD had way more pressure from day 1, that's for sure, Kobe faced similar adversity 9yrs into his career and during that 3yr stint before Gasol he wanted out because they sucked so I don't get how you forget that phase as well, Kobe wanted the deck stacked in his favor like it was for his first 8yrs and when it got hard and he was battling for 8th seed he wanted out, you do remember that famous youtube parking lot video with him wearing that Jordan Bulls jersey right?

either KD is better now or he never will be, that's for you to decide on who you would build your team from scratch with, I would draft KD, Kobe was a backup his first few yrs in the league with some spot starts here and there before his 4th season where he got his minutes and hit his scoring stride

how in the hell does KD have to win 3 more scoring titles when he already has the edge over Kobe in that category? that makes no sense just like the rest of what you said he had to do, he has done plenty if you compare the players first 10yrs since I think KD is in his 10th year

KingPosey
11-05-2017, 02:02 PM
If we are going to **** on his ring should we **** on 3 of kobes getting it as 2nd fiddle to shaq? Unless you think Curry/Klay/Dray are gonna be top 5 players ever like Shaq... If durant wins 1 or 2 without this team then what?

Kobe was at a completely different point in his career idk how you compare the two scenarios when you lay it all out.

nastynice
11-05-2017, 05:40 PM
Its incredibly easy now but it was pretty easy back then too. That's just how different this is

Bro, 2010 wasnít that long ago, not everyone forgot what all the talk was about..

It makes no difference really, I donít even remember what lead into this, but youíre just disconnected with reality if you think his move was easy to defend. Lebron was absolutely crucified by just about everyone when he made that move, partly for the move, partly for the way he did it, either way that dude took more hate than KD even. More widespread at least, no comparison

AllBall
11-05-2017, 05:59 PM
I'm tired of the "super team" narratives. Kobe and Shaq were an all time super duo. Kobe with Gasol, Bynum, Odom were great together. Not to mention they also had future Hall of Famer Adam Morrison to carry them.

My point is, all NBA championship teams have great talent throughout their roster in one way or another so call them "super teams" or whatever you want. The object is to win, and these "super teams" are created within the rules of the NBA.

That said, I don't think Durant will pass Kobe. Kobe played for 20 years, 18x an all star, made 12 all-defensive teams (9 of them 1st), and is overall a more iconic player worldwide.

This mon trolling, lol

Take Kobe off that Lakers team and they go nowhere. Take KD off the Warriors and they still end up in the Finals. That's the difference between a great team and a super team.

lol, please
11-05-2017, 06:00 PM
I'm tired of the "super team" narratives. Kobe and Shaq were an all time super duo. Kobe with Gasol, Bynum, Odom were great together. Not to mention they also had future Hall of Famer Adam Morrison to carry them.

My point is, all NBA championship teams have great talent throughout their roster in one way or another so call them "super teams" or whatever you want. The object is to win, and these "super teams" are created within the rules of the NBA.

That said, I don't think Durant will pass Kobe. Kobe played for 20 years, 18x an all star, made 12 all-defensive teams (9 of them 1st), and is overall a more iconic player worldwide.

Well said.

nastynice
11-05-2017, 06:00 PM
Hes better than Kobe so for me, heís passed Kobe already.

Ah no way. ďBetterĒ takes many things into account, legacy being a big one. Right now, Kobe is the better overall player on any all time list, thatís not debatable.

If youíre saying you would take peak KD for one game over peak Kobe, thatís fair, but thatís a completely diff argument than which player is all time better

KD got time still tho, he certainly has the potential to write something that eclipses Kobeís legacy. The potential is there..

mngopher35
11-05-2017, 06:02 PM
I agree with everything except the change of scenery part.

I think last year he already took his status up a notch, he absolutely dominated throughout the playoffs in big moments, he arguably outplayed one of the greatest players in history. It won't be easy, but there's still so many different ways this story can be written, its hard to say anything right now.

Sure but normally when a guy finally wins etc. it is a huge deal for their legacy and this wasn't at all really. It was expected/predictable from the start to a pretty crazy extent (feel free to find the thread where we predicted this beforehand last year and it will show me even then talking about Curry taking attention of defenses and KD likely benefiting for the award). This isn't like when other greats lead a team to the finals off their own ability/impact, again he wasn't the best player on either end for his team throughout the year. This wasn't leading a team somewhere new, it was joining a team that had already done it without him. Etc. Etc.

We can agree on nothing is for sure and it isn't impossible for him to move up without a new scenery or injuries etc. but imo most people will always question his ability on an individual level (compared to top 10 greats) given the situation he has put himself in. It's up to him to prove his own individual greatness and right now that involves not being the best offensive or defensive player on the team overall.

lol, please
11-05-2017, 06:03 PM
Compare Kobe vs Durant for first 10 yrs to get a better grip when saying who was better or whatever

then from there put yourself in a Owner/GM position and you have the 1st pick and those 2 players are there as the top players in the draft, who are you taking?

that's how you know who is the better player because you will always take the most dominant better player a quadrillion times out of a quadrillion, KD came into the league looking to turn a franchise around, Kobe was drafted/traded for by a 50 win Lakers team who just acquired Shaq that same offseason, KD had way more pressure from day 1, that's for sure, Kobe faced similar adversity 9yrs into his career and during that 3yr stint before Gasol he wanted out because they sucked so I don't get how you forget that phase as well, Kobe wanted the deck stacked in his favor like it was for his first 8yrs and when it got hard and he was battling for 8th seed he wanted out, you do remember that famous youtube parking lot video with him wearing that Jordan Bulls jersey right?

either KD is better now or he never will be, that's for you to decide on who you would build your team from scratch with, I would draft KD, Kobe was a backup his first few yrs in the league with some spot starts here and there before his 4th season where he got his minutes and hit his scoring stride

how in the hell does KD have to win 3 more scoring titles when he already has the edge over Kobe in that category? that makes no sense just like the rest of what you said he had to do, he has done plenty if you compare the players first 10yrs since I think KD is in his 10th year

Great post.


Good point about Kobe joining a contender with a future HOFer and how he almost bailed on the Lakers when the going got tough.

Great point as well about wanting scoring titles for the player that is already the better shooter/scorer.

nastynice
11-05-2017, 06:13 PM
Sure but normally when a guy finally wins etc. it is a huge deal for their legacy and this wasn't at all really. It was expected/predictable from the start to a pretty crazy extent (feel free to find the thread where we predicted this beforehand last year and it will show me even then talking about Curry taking attention of defenses and KD likely benefiting for the award). This isn't like when other greats lead a team to the finals off their own ability/impact, again he wasn't the best player on either end for his team throughout the year. This wasn't leading a team somewhere new, it was joining a team that had already done it without him. Etc. Etc.

We can agree on nothing is for sure and it isn't impossible for him to move up without a new scenery or injuries etc. but imo most people will always question his ability on an individual level (compared to top 10 greats) given the situation he has put himself in. It's up to him to prove his own individual greatness and right now that involves not being the best offensive or defensive player on the team overall.

Yea, but he can still impress. If he replicates last post season for numerous years there just wouldnít be any possible way to deny his greatness. Also, even tho his bar is now set higher, he can still reach it. He just gonna have to have wayy more on his resume to do so compared to if he stayed in okc

Chronz
11-05-2017, 06:17 PM
Bro, 2010 wasnít that long ago, not everyone forgot what all the talk was about..

It makes no difference really, I donít even remember what lead into this, but youíre just disconnected with reality if you think his move was easy to defend. Lebron was absolutely crucified by just about everyone when he made that move, partly for the move, partly for the way he did it, either way that dude took more hate than KD even. More widespread at least, no comparison
I remember the talk better than you, God knows I debated the matter plenty and it was no where near as lopsided as this. Bron was crucified for how he handled it (live interview broadcast for example) but that's not what I'm talking about.

lol, please
11-05-2017, 06:20 PM
Yea, but he can still impress. If he replicates last post season for numerous years there just wouldnít be any possible way to deny his greatness. Also, even tho his bar is now set higher, he can still reach it. He just gonna have to have wayy more on his resume to do so compared to if he stayed in okc

Nah bruh.

Nah playa.

Why should Durant have to do more? Lebron joined a super team TWICE. TWICE!! I don't see anyone saying "oh well, since he joined loaded teams, he has to do more".

Why the double standards?

Durant passes the advanced metrics test. The eye test. The championship test. All he needs is do keep up the efficiency, and the longevity.

I can't wait to see what KD's PER, TS and WS/48 for the playoffs will be over the next 4 seasons or so.

lol, please
11-05-2017, 06:26 PM
I remember the talk better than you, God knows I debated the matter plenty and it was no where near as lopsided as this. Bron was crucified for how he handled it (live interview broadcast for example) but that's not what I'm talking about.

He was crucified because he broke a verbal and public promise to a city and team of not leaving til he helps win a championship and he got impatient, and left to create a super team predicted to win 8 titles, and left with a 2-4 record in the playoffs with that team to try and make ANOTHER super team back in Cleveland.

When did Durant do similar? Don't worry, i'll wait.

Chronz
11-05-2017, 06:57 PM
He was crucified because he broke a verbal and public promise to a city and team of not leaving til he helps win a championship and he got impatient, and left to create a super team predicted to win 8 titles, and left with a 2-4 record in the playoffs with that team to try and make ANOTHER super team back in Cleveland.

When did Durant do similar? Don't worry, i'll wait.

Lol. Good one

lol, please
11-05-2017, 07:12 PM
Lol. Good one

Exactly. You don't have an answer. I'll help you finish the story.

Durant gets drafted by OKC, makes them a contender for around 5 seasons, then leaves to a better situation in free agency. No broken promises. He didn't make a media circus out of it either.

tredigs
11-05-2017, 07:48 PM
Exactly. You don't have an answer. I'll help you finish the story.

Durant gets drafted by OKC, makes them a contender for around 5 seasons, then leaves to a better situation in free agency. No broken promises. He didn't make a media circus out of it either.

Correction, KD was drafted by the Seatle Supersonics, and forced to Oklahoma the following year. He then re-signed with Oklahoma for an additional 5 years, making his stay there nearly a decade long. So no, on top of his ridiculous amounts of charity $ he has (and still does) donated, the only person who is "owed" anything is KD (though I'm not with you on LBJ, despite his stupidity in the claims he made them, he did not owe Cleveland anything either).

I'm perfectly fine with people being butt-hurt that he went to the Warriors, but it was a nearly unprecedented situation where a team that good could actually sign a top free agent, and it's always been nothing but pure conjecture and water cooler talk to assume that countless other superstars would not have jumped at the opportunity to do the same. Ex players can talk all they want, 0.00001% of them were A) as good as KD + B) afforded the opportunity to join a team like that with the max salary. In the end, it's all talk.

What's reality is that KD gave WAY more than the franchise deserved in the first place (again, wasn't even drafted by Oklahoma) and chose to join the team he thought he would fit in with the best. And - spoiler alert - he was exactly right. History recognizes how great players were and how much they helped their teams. As Finals MVP of the defending runner-ups, he did his job. End of discussion.

His rise up the ranks of the GOAT's depends on how long he can sustain his greatness, and how he performs in the biggest moments. It's on him, not the salty fans who will discredit him to their sad hearts content.

And full disclosure - in a perfect world, I did not want him in Golden State (though I wasn't exactly angry). I wanted him in Boston to join a team that would actually put up a fight against LBJ and the All Stars annual cakewalk to the Finals.

mngopher35
11-05-2017, 10:03 PM
Yea, but he can still impress. If he replicates last post season for numerous years there just wouldnít be any possible way to deny his greatness. Also, even tho his bar is now set higher, he can still reach it. He just gonna have to have wayy more on his resume to do so compared to if he stayed in okc

I mean we all knew he was great before, what we haven't seen is him leading his team through a tough challenge etc. on the way to a title. That won't change if it's just repeating what happened last season. Not best offensive player/leader. Not best defensive player/leader. Not on a team that even necessarily needs him to win. He can keep winning titles and playing off the attention Steph garners in an easier situation all he wants but it probably won't separate himself much individually still in comparison to the top guys. We agree it is possible he just keeps improving/taking over more and more (which in turn ends up crushing steph's chances of top level tbh) to the point where he can make a case but it is just much more unlikely and as Tre pointed out it's an unprecedented situation.

It's still far different than most situations where an individual is actually needed to take over/show up in order for their team to win and they face adversity on the way to leading their team to a title (at the very least on at least one end but more likely in a general sense too). This is about proving that as an individual player you are one of the elite's who can completely take over and win it all for your team as the leader/highest impact player/ taking defensive attention etc. He doesn't really cover any of those areas though individually on the whole although you can obviously make the argument for highest impact if we are just look at finals (still though Curry was the clear focus of the defense to help him prop up his #'s).

It is just tough for him to prove himself to the extreme extent of a top 10 player when he is in such an extreme situation from a team standpoint that he individually almost doesn't matter in the end result (Warriors favorite to win either way, the extent being the difference). That's all I was getting at with the change of scenery or injury stuff, it would just create a situation where he was actually challenged to lead his team over another one of at least somewhat similar talent/ability and could step up on that crazy level we have seen other greats.

Jamiecballer
11-05-2017, 10:17 PM
Hes better than Kobe so for me, heís passed Kobe already.

that is precisely how i view it as well. as soon as he proved it wasn't a one off it pretty much cemented it for me.

LOb0
11-05-2017, 10:36 PM
Id take peak 5 year stretch of Durant pretty easily over peak 5 year stretch of Kobe. And again..."pretty easily" so Durant is better for sure.

What was that lose? Nice choke job in game 6 vs GS.

IKnowHoops
11-05-2017, 10:36 PM
Ah no way. ďBetterĒ takes many things into account, legacy being a big one. Right now, Kobe is the better overall player on any all time list, thatís not debatable.

If youíre saying you would take peak KD for one game over peak Kobe, thatís fair, but thatís a completely diff argument than which player is all time better

KD got time still tho, he certainly has the potential to write something that eclipses Kobeís legacy. The potential is there..
Id take peak 5 year stretch of Durant pretty easily over peak 5 year stretch of Kobe. And again..."pretty easily" so Durant is better for sure.

Chronz
11-06-2017, 12:25 AM
Exactly. You don't have an answer. I'll help you finish the story.

Durant gets drafted by OKC, makes them a contender for around 5 seasons, then leaves to a better situation in free agency. No broken promises. He didn't make a media circus out of it either.

Lol plz

Hawkeye15
11-06-2017, 11:34 AM
KD currently ranks 14th All Time in MVP award shares - which is a pretty solid metric to sort of find a person's value over time relative to their own league. Kobe is 10th. In that regard, he's inching up on him.

The top 13 for reference are Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Russell, Shaq, Karl Malone, Duncan, Kobe, Wilt, DR J, D. Rob. Other than swapping Hakeem (19th) with the Mailman, that's basically most people's top 15. Food for thought.

Context matters however. In 10, 15, 20, 25 years, you probably get your way, most humans are too stupid to retain much outside their first hookup. Most people will forget the context of his free agency, and how non-competitive it was (we generally ask our all timers to win in adversity, and go above and beyond, not just hop onto the chip bus). But understand, he won't get the credit many all timers who have great playoff runs gets, because of his decision to leave a contender and join a powerhouse that didn't even need him to win, as they proved.

It won't matter in 20 years. Guys like me will always remember, and never allow Durant to approach the top 10 unless things change situationally for him and he has success away from his current scenario. But people are stupid, so don't worry, your boy will get his ranking :)

Hawkeye15
11-06-2017, 11:37 AM
Exactly. You don't have an answer. I'll help you finish the story.

Durant gets drafted by OKC, makes them a contender for around 5 seasons, then leaves to a better situation in free agency. No broken promises. He didn't make a media circus out of it either.


haha, you left out a whole bunch of stuff...

the most important part being, Durant made the most un-competitive move we have ever seen by a "superstar" in his peak. It was a pure beta move. Which is fine, but his defenders need to understand we expect more from the best of the best. At least want to conquer some adversity, right? But not KD..

JasonJohnHorn
11-07-2017, 11:18 AM
In the context that he's winning, it will be hard.

To be frank, both Shaq and Kobe won without the other, but they won together first, and even though Shaq was the MVP each time, the view is Shaq couldn't do it without Kobe.

With KD, the Warriors were already champions. So even if he plays at an elite level, there will always be the belief that the team was a champion without him.

If there is a situation where Curry is out for a season, and he's dropping 30+ a game and they win it all, that will go a long way.

It's not fair, but even if he wins six titles with this team, Curry Klay, and Dray (assuming they stay together) will have 7.


He's in a hard spot.


Still... posting 35+ one year, a couple more MVPs and 5 more title will go a LONG way ;-)

tredigs
11-07-2017, 01:35 PM
Context matters however. In 10, 15, 20, 25 years, you probably get your way, most humans are too stupid to retain much outside their first hookup. Most people will forget the context of his free agency, and how non-competitive it was (we generally ask our all timers to win in adversity, and go above and beyond, not just hop onto the chip bus). But understand, he won't get the credit many all timers who have great playoff runs gets, because of his decision to leave a contender and join a powerhouse that didn't even need him to win, as they proved.

It won't matter in 20 years. Guys like me will always remember, and never allow Durant to approach the top 10 unless things change situationally for him and he has success away from his current scenario. But people are stupid, so don't worry, your boy will get his ranking :)
This mantra would have more merit to me if we did not already know that KD could lead teams on deep runs and to the Finals in the vaunted West. Kid was 22 the first time he made the Finals (and played admirably), but unfortunately for him he ran into prime Bron and the All Stars. Then he re-signs and continued to dominate on an individual/team level, but unfortunately for him the Thunder kept having major pieces injured in the playoffs. Something that can't happen when teams like the Spurs and Warriors are in your path. Regardless, his impact as a dominant force in arguably the toughest NBA to date was never in question. As I've said 100 times, fans can be salty about the move all they want, but he put in all the work I needed to see in OKC to know that he is an All Time Great. That portion of his legacy was already answered (regardless of not beating the insanely elite teams they ran into... often with a top 3 player of theirs injured).

Again, now it's just about sustained greatness and showing up in the biggest moments. Which with him in his prime, that will be for years to come. And don't worry, much as it does not seem like it now (and much as it not seem like it for Bron the mouth breathers in 2010), I am sure he still has plenty of adversity to come. I am confifent that is how objective history will look at him as well, much to your guys' chagrin.

valade16
11-07-2017, 01:44 PM
This mantra would have more merit to me if we did not already know that KD could lead teams on deep runs and to the Finals in the vaunted West. Kid was 22 the first time he made the Finals (and played admirably), but unfortunately for him he ran into prime Bron and the All Stars. Then he re-signs and continued to dominate on an individual/team level, but unfortunately for him the Thunder kept having major pieces injured in the playoffs. Something that can't happen when teams like the Spurs and Warriors are in your path. Regardless, his impact as a dominant force in arguably the toughest NBA to date was never in question. As I've said 100 times, fans can be salty about the move all they want, but he put in all the work I needed to see in OKC to know that he is an All Time Great. That portion of his legacy was already answered (regardless of not beating the insanely elite teams they ran into... often with a top 3 player of theirs injured).

Again, now it's just about sustained greatness and showing up in the biggest moments. Which with him in his prime, that will be for years to come. And don't worry, much as it does not seem like it now (and much as it not seem like it for Bron the mouth breathers in 2010), I am sure he still has plenty of adversity to come. I am confifent that is how objective history will look at him as well, much to your guys' chagrin.

And his resume with the Thunder joins the ranks of Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, that is to say, all-time greats who are ranked between 15-25 all-time.

Objectively there is not a single Player considered Top 10 who didn't lead their team as the best player to the title at some point. The chances he joins that esteemed air without having done so are slim.

He could very easily settle in the 10-20 range (if he's not already at the back half of that already), but considering Curry is also going to settle in there somewhere, very doubtful he joins the pantheon of the elite of the elite (the Magic/Bird/MJ/Shaq/etc. rarified air)

tredigs
11-07-2017, 02:37 PM
And his resume with the Thunder joins the ranks of Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, that is to say, all-time greats who are ranked between 15-25 all-time.

Objectively there is not a single Player considered Top 10 who didn't lead their team as the best player to the title at some point. The chances he joins that esteemed air without having done so are slim.

He could very easily settle in the 10-20 range (if he's not already at the back half of that already), but considering Curry is also going to settle in there somewhere, very doubtful he joins the pantheon of the elite of the elite (the Magic/Bird/MJ/Shaq/etc. rarified air)

I like to think of it a little deeper than that. Being the best player on a championship team is one important aspect of the criteria (one that many would argue he checked last year though), as is sustained prime relative to the league, playoff success (and who it was against), MVP consideration, etc. Jerry West never won a title or an MVP, but he's in most people's top 15 (12th or 13th here? Not sure), and rightfully so. KD has an MVP, a ship+Finals MVP, regular season + playoff success for multiple franchises as an alpha and co-alpha, is on the short-list for best scorers in NBA history, and still has YEARS of prime basketball likely ahead of him. And again, his MVP voting took a huge hit coming to GS (first time out of the top-5 in the past 6 years), but still he's climbing that undeniable ladder where only the GOATS reside above him.

Long story short, it's not cut and dry. And with the resume he already has, there is absolutely a path for him to finish above Kobe All Time. Some, as you can see, already have him above Kobe.

valade16
11-07-2017, 03:02 PM
I like to think of it a little deeper than that. Being the best player on a championship team is one important aspect of the criteria (one that many would argue he checked last year though), as is sustained prime relative to the league, playoff success (and who it was against), MVP consideration, etc. Jerry West never won a title or an MVP, but he's in most people's top 15 (12th or 13th here? Not sure), and rightfully so. KD has an MVP, a ship+Finals MVP, regular season + playoff success for multiple franchises as an alpha and co-alpha, is on the short-list for best scorers in NBA history, and still has YEARS of prime basketball likely ahead of him. And again, his MVP voting took a huge hit coming to GS (first time out of the top-5 in the past 6 years), but still he's climbing that undeniable ladder where only the GOATS reside above him.

Long story short, it's not cut and dry. And with the resume he already has, there is absolutely a path for him to finish above Kobe All Time. Some, as you can see, already have him above Kobe.

Jerry West did win a title.

Yes, some have him above Kobe, but I'd venture to say it would not be very many people in basketball circles and he actually will have a harder time surpassing Kobe amongst coaches/players/sportswriters as they put more stock on legacy than we generally do at PSD, where we are more statistically based.

You could make a strong case that peak KD is flat out better than peak Kobe, but you could make that case against Kobe for a lot of players that aren't ahead of him. It's not being statistically better that will get KD ahead of Kobe, he has to create a greater legacy, and that will be very tough to do.

In terms of peak ability, KD is right up there in the 10-20 area. But if we want to do simply peak ability, I think most could come up with a list of 10 players they'd rather have than KD all-time, so again, his legacy will have to be incredibly impressive to surpass Kobe.

Given he's on the most stacked team in NBA history (arguably), in order to pass Kobe he almost certainly has to tie or surpass him in titles. I couldn't imagine a 4x Champ. KD surpassing Kobe unless Curry gets hurt or KD leaves and wins titles elsewhere.

tredigs
11-07-2017, 04:16 PM
Jerry West did win a title.

Yes, some have him above Kobe, but I'd venture to say it would not be very many people in basketball circles and he actually will have a harder time surpassing Kobe amongst coaches/players/sportswriters as they put more stock on legacy than we generally do at PSD, where we are more statistically based.

You could make a strong case that peak KD is flat out better than peak Kobe, but you could make that case against Kobe for a lot of players that aren't ahead of him. It's not being statistically better that will get KD ahead of Kobe, he has to create a greater legacy, and that will be very tough to do.

In terms of peak ability, KD is right up there in the 10-20 area. But if we want to do simply peak ability, I think most could come up with a list of 10 players they'd rather have than KD all-time, so again, his legacy will have to be incredibly impressive to surpass Kobe.

Given he's on the most stacked team in NBA history (arguably), in order to pass Kobe he almost certainly has to tie or surpass him in titles. I couldn't imagine a 4x Champ. KD surpassing Kobe unless Curry gets hurt or KD leaves and wins titles elsewhere.

West never won as the alpha I mean (since that was your point with the top guys). He did finally win a title with the super-team Lakers once Russell's Celtics were done. He was terrible in those playoffs btw, and maybe the 5th best player in the Finals. KD's championship and performance along the way was a hell of a lot more impressive than West's (despite KD being the 2nd best player on the team in 3 of the 4 rounds - such is life on a team with another great).

Ultimately, you guys have already seen the future and written KD's legacy. I'm going to actually watch the games and make the assessment when it's time. As is, there are still plenty of paths for him to pass Kobe (a kid who came into the league alongside a top 5 coach of All Time and maybe the most dominant player in NBA history... not exactly the worst of head starts?). We're talking about a borderline top-20 player as is WHO IS IN HIS PRIME with KD. Let's let it play out?

valade16
11-07-2017, 04:26 PM
West never won as the alpha I mean (since that was your point with the top guys). He did finally win a title with the super-team Lakers once Russell's Celtics were done. He was terrible in those playoffs btw, and maybe the 5th best player in the Finals. KD's championship and performance along the way was a hell of a lot more impressive than West's (despite KD being the 2nd best player on the team in 3 of the 4 rounds - such is life on a team with another great).

Ultimately, you guys have already seen the future and written KD's legacy. I'm going to actually watch the games and make the assessment when it's time. As is, there are still plenty of paths for him to pass Kobe (a kid who came into the league alongside a top 5 coach of All Time and maybe the most dominant player in NBA history... not exactly the worst of head starts?). We're talking about a borderline top-20 player as is WHO IS IN HIS PRIME with KD. Let's let it play out?

Yes, KD's title run was more impressive than West's, but West's playoff resume prior to them being apart of super teams blows KD's away.

I agree, let's let it play out. I'm not suggesting he can't, I'm simply pointing out what it would take. This upsets you. He can absolutely surpass Kobe Bryant all-time, but if you were a betting man (which you repeatedly say you are on here), the chances of him doing so are less than him not currently.

Do you agree that if KD stays with the Warriors and Curry is healthy and they only win 4 titles, it would be very difficult for him to surpass Kobe?

tredigs
11-07-2017, 04:49 PM
Yes, KD's title run was more impressive than West's, but West's playoff resume prior to them being apart of super teams blows KD's away.

I agree, let's let it play out. I'm not suggesting he can't, I'm simply pointing out what it would take. This upsets you. He can absolutely surpass Kobe Bryant all-time, but if you were a betting man (which you repeatedly say you are on here), the chances of him doing so are less than him not currently.

Do you agree that if KD stays with the Warriors and Curry is healthy and they only win 4 titles, it would be very difficult for him to surpass Kobe?

Doesn't anger me that people let their agendas take precedent over being rational, but it doesn't mean I won't call you guys out on it. As for the 4 title comment, that's far too simplistic. I'm going to have to see how he/they play, who they play, and take it from there. I also don't think you (along with many others) are giving anything close to proper weight to how hard it is to win a title every season in the current NBA climate. I don't care how talented the squad is. It's why LBJ's consecutive title runs (despite often ending in L's) are so impressive, regardless of the fact that he stacked the deck in the East (twice, after the first group was on the way out) and the competition has been so terrible relative to the opposing conference. You have to give it proper context (we all understand it's not happening if you plop those Heat and Cavs in the West), but it's still a monumental feat and a major reason why he's considered top-3 All Time by many at this point.

valade16
11-07-2017, 05:07 PM
Doesn't anger me that people let their agendas take precedent over being rational, but it doesn't mean I won't call you guys out on it. As for the 4 title comment, that's far too simplistic. I'm going to have to see how he/they play, who they play, and take it from there. I also don't think you (along with many others) are giving anything close to proper weight to how hard it is to win a title every season in the current NBA climate. I don't care how talented the squad is. It's why LBJ's consecutive title runs (despite often ending in L's) are so impressive, regardless of the fact that he stacked the deck in the East (twice, after the first group was on the way out) and the competition has been so terrible relative to the opposing conference. You have to give it proper context (we all understand it's not happening if you plop those Heat and Cavs in the West), but it's still a monumental feat and a major reason why he's considered top-3 All Time by many at this point.

But you seem to think that setting up expected baseline measurables for what he would have to do to surpass Kobe is not rational when it is a completely rational thing to do.

I'm not saying he can't surpass Kobe, I'm saying it would be difficult unless he accomplishes certain things that would separate him from Kobe. If you want to act like there's no possible way we could know what it's going to take to surpass Kobe, go ahead. But most are smarter than that, we have a general idea of what it would take.

I'm assuming he's going to play at an elite level (commiserate with how he's already played), are you assuming he's going to start playing at a drastically higher level? I'm assuming he has a shot at playing as long as Kobe and being as productive as him for as long, and that is a bold assumption to take as not very many players do that.

I am giving going to and winning a bunch of Finals in a row it's proper weight, I don't think you are giving the Warriors proper credit. You have argued on here that they are statistically the best team ever and that they are the most talented team ever. If they are the best team ever, then best team ever expectations are placed upon them. They can't be considered the most talented team ever assembled and fall drastically short of the other GOAT teams and maintain that opinion.

If they want to be considered as good as MJ's Bulls or Magic's Lakers or Shaq/Kobe Lakers, they need to produce championships at that level. So if they don't, they would be a disappointment, and it would be very hard to see KD surpass Kobe if his GS tenure is considered a disappointment.

Again, it seems that you are saying that we cannot possibly estimate what it would take or make predictions on what will happen, which is an odd sentiment for someone who bets, because that's essentially what betting is: making predictions on future performance.

tredigs
11-07-2017, 05:45 PM
But you seem to think that setting up expected baseline measurables for what he would have to do to surpass Kobe is not rational when it is a completely rational thing to do.

I'm not saying he can't surpass Kobe, I'm saying it would be difficult unless he accomplishes certain things that would separate him from Kobe. If you want to act like there's no possible way we could know what it's going to take to surpass Kobe, go ahead. But most are smarter than that, we have a general idea of what it would take.

I'm assuming he's going to play at an elite level (commiserate with how he's already played), are you assuming he's going to start playing at a drastically higher level? I'm assuming he has a shot at playing as long as Kobe and being as productive as him for as long, and that is a bold assumption to take as not very many players do that.

I am giving going to and winning a bunch of Finals in a row it's proper weight, I don't think you are giving the Warriors proper credit. You have argued on here that they are statistically the best team ever and that they are the most talented team ever. If they are the best team ever, then best team ever expectations are placed upon them. They can't be considered the most talented team ever assembled and fall drastically short of the other GOAT teams and maintain that opinion.

If they want to be considered as good as MJ's Bulls or Magic's Lakers or Shaq/Kobe Lakers, they need to produce championships at that level. So if they don't, they would be a disappointment, and it would be very hard to see KD surpass Kobe if his GS tenure is considered a disappointment.

Again, it seems that you are saying that we cannot possibly estimate what it would take or make predictions on what will happen, which is an odd sentiment for someone who bets, because that's essentially what betting is: making predictions on future performance.

My point, Valade, is that you're trying to break a nuanced multi-colored topic into black and white. Bird and Magic were battling for titles as rookies (no slight to their impact in that battle as they were essentially top-10 NBA level players by the time they were sophomores in college). Russell was on his own super-team from the early going. Kobe joined forces with a top-10 player from day 1. 'Bron didn't win until he stacked the deck (coincidentally blocking KD from leading his own team to a title at the ripe age of 22). Durant played 9 seasons in the league before he got to a position of being the clear favorite to win the title (something I think is fair to say that every single one of the top-10 guys have had the privilege of... and as I outlined many of them FAR before that age).

So the answer is yes - as I've already stated - KD needs to both continue his elite play throughout the year and deliver in the biggest moments. 1 year in? Check. Let's see how this year goes.

I'll lay out a hypothetical, since I don't think you're comprehending how I view the game: The 60 win Celtics are able to add Hayward back 5 games into the post-season. They proceed to roll through the Bucks, Wizards and Cavs (who had seemed to have figured it out) en route to the Finals, looking like serious threats to anyone in their path. On the Warriors side, Draymond goes down with a back injury 3 games into the post-season, and they fight two 7 game series in the 2nd/3rd round against San Antonio and OKC before ultimately scratching into the Finals. In the Finals, Klay is being smothered by Brown and is next to useless as he shoots 20% from 3 in the series while failing to get to the line. Curry and Durant both show up HUGE (let's say 35/9/7 from Durant on 50/40/90), but ultimately, it's not enough. The rested Celtics D + balanced offense is too much for the Warriors role players, and with a non-Draymond weakened defense, they fall in 6.

That is one of 3 dozen scenarios that could very easily become a reality and result in the Warriors understandably falling short of the title despite KD and Curry both playing at elite, All-Time levels. Yet, KD could play far worse in the Finals (though still very good ... say 27/7/5 on 46/38/87), while the Warriors catch no injuries and simply coast to a Finals win. Your "4 titles" comment would have us believe that I should see the latter result as a greater reason for KD to rise among the greats, but that's not how I view basketball. I need to actually watch the performances and put context to them as much as possible when rating players (IE how many years into the league were they before joining teams that were clear favorites). I will say, the Warriors are in a better place than most of those that came before them, and that is also put into the context.
Fair?

That'll be it for me on this topic; I'll revisit after the season, or in 5 years.

valade16
11-07-2017, 06:07 PM
My point, Valade, is that you're trying to break a nuanced multi-colored topic into black and white. Bird and Magic were battling for titles as rookies (no slight to their impact in that battle as they were essentially top-10 NBA level players by the time they were sophomores in college). Russell was on his own super-team from the early going. Kobe joined forces with a top-10 player from day 1. 'Bron didn't win until he stacked the deck (coincidentally blocking KD from leading his own team to a title at the ripe age of 22). Durant played 9 seasons in the league before he got to a position of being the clear favorite to win the title (something I think is fair to say that every single one of the top-10 guys have had the privilege of... and as I outlined many of them FAR before that age).

So the answer is yes - as I've already stated - KD needs to both continue his elite play throughout the year and deliver in the biggest moments. 1 year in? Check. Let's see how this year goes.

I'll lay out a hypothetical, since I don't think you're comprehending how I view the game: The 60 win Celtics are able to add Hayward back 5 games into the post-season. They proceed to roll through the Bucks, Wizards and Cavs (who had seemed to have figured it out) en route to the Finals, looking like serious threats to anyone in their path. On the Warriors side, Draymond goes down with a back injury 3 games into the post-season, and they fight two 7 game series in the 2nd/3rd round against San Antonio and OKC before ultimately scratching into the Finals. In the Finals, Klay is being smothered by Brown and is next to useless as he shoots 20% from 3 in the series while failing to get to the line. Curry and Durant both show up HUGE (let's say 35/9/7 from Durant on 50/40/90), but ultimately, it's not enough. The rested Celtics D + balanced offense is too much for the Warriors role players, and with a non-Draymond weakened defense, they fall in 6.

That is one of 3 dozen scenarios that could very easily become a reality and result in the Warriors understandably falling short of the title despite KD and Curry both playing at elite, All-Time levels. Yet, KD could play far worse in the Finals (though still very good ... say 27/7/5 on 46/38/87), while the Warriors catch no injuries and simply coast to a Finals win. Your "4 titles" comment would have us believe that I should see the latter result as a greater reason for KD to rise among the greats, but that's not how I view basketball. I need to actually watch the performances and put context to them as much as possible when rating players (IE how many years into the league were they before joining teams that were clear favorites). I will say, the Warriors are in a better place than most of those that came before them, and that is also put into the context.
Fair?

That'll be it for me on this topic; I'll revisit after the season, or in 5 years.

First Bolded, You saying that each of those players were the clear favorites to win the title the first time they won them is revisionist history. The Bulls were not favored to win the title before the season in 1991. The Lakers were not favored to win the title Magic's first year. It's only because we look back now and see how good they and their teams were that we think they were the obvious favorites to win from the beginning (as people did with GS and their first title).

Second Bolded: And that is a completely plausible scenario... for 1 year. But again, they are in the running for best team ever. If you want to say it's likely they have such a scenario happen year after year to where they don't win more than another title or possibly two, you can. But that's a very unlikely scenario. In that case KD could conceivably become the next Jerry West to where despite not winning he puts up monster numbers in the playoffs... But Jerry West isn't considered Top 10. So even with your scenario, others have had similar results and they didn't become Top 10.

Yes, you need to put context into the titles before determining exactly how much each is worth, but that's not a very good case for KD as going into every season he already has more context against why his titles should be disproportionately weighted vs. others' simply because of how stacked the team around him is. Although you say as much so yes, that is fair.

KnicksorBust
11-08-2017, 03:20 PM
Yes, KD's title run was more impressive than West's, but West's playoff resume prior to them being apart of super teams blows KD's away.

I agree, let's let it play out. I'm not suggesting he can't, I'm simply pointing out what it would take. This upsets you. He can absolutely surpass Kobe Bryant all-time, but if you were a betting man (which you repeatedly say you are on here), the chances of him doing so are less than him not currently.

Do you agree that if KD stays with the Warriors and Curry is healthy and they only win 4 titles, it would be very difficult for him to surpass Kobe?

I think 4 titles is enough because Kobe gets shade for the first 1. No one denied Kobe's status by the 3rd. That being said, for my personal ranking Durant passing Kobe is extremely difficult. I value longevity and rings therefore I see Kobe as a top 7 player. It's hard to argue against Kobe's sustained play as a top 10 player and his postseason credentials. The funny part to me is that when comparing careers it seems like everybody wants to take a short-cut these days. Duncan and Kobe had to claw their way to titles later in their careers to get mentioned as top 5 players. LeBron only has 3 and people call him the GOAT. Durant only has 1 and people sky-rocket him up their list. That was a huge get for his resume but when comparing him to Kobe, sustained greatness is far more impressive to me.

That all being said I think Durant was/is the Warriors best player and was clearly the MVP of the Finals. I think he out-played LeBron, no excuses. If he repeats what he did last year 3 more times then we can talk. He would probably become top 10 at that point. He really was awesome in this year's finals...

valade16
11-08-2017, 03:43 PM
I think 4 titles is enough because Kobe gets shade for the first 1. No one denied Kobe's status by the 3rd. That being said, for my personal ranking Durant passing Kobe is extremely difficult. I value longevity and rings therefore I see Kobe as a top 7 player. It's hard to argue against Kobe's sustained play as a top 10 player and his postseason credentials. The funny part to me is that when comparing careers it seems like everybody wants to take a short-cut these days. Duncan and Kobe had to claw their way to titles later in their careers to get mentioned as top 5 players. LeBron only has 3 and people call him the GOAT. Durant only has 1 and people sky-rocket him up their list. That was a huge get for his resume but when comparing him to Kobe, sustained greatness is far more impressive to me.

That all being said I think Durant was/is the Warriors best player and was clearly the MVP of the Finals. I think he out-played LeBron, no excuses. If he repeats what he did last year 3 more times then we can talk. He would probably become top 10 at that point. He really was awesome in this year's finals...

He was indeed awesome in last year's finals, though obviously the attention paid to Curry/Klay greatly helped him dominate. If the Warriors win the next 3 titles and he is the clear cut MVP in every Finals, yeah maybe we start talking about KD as Top 10 and surpassing Kobe.

But it's hard for me to believe KD will win the next 3 FMVP for the Warriors simply because their team is so talented, no telling who could get hot during the Finals.

KnicksorBust
11-08-2017, 04:07 PM
He was indeed awesome in last year's finals, though obviously the attention paid to Curry/Klay greatly helped him dominate. If the Warriors win the next 3 titles and he is the clear cut MVP in every Finals, yeah maybe we start talking about KD as Top 10 and surpassing Kobe.

But it's hard for me to believe KD will win the next 3 FMVP for the Warriors simply because their team is so talented, no telling who could get hot during the Finals.

Right and if he doesn't win finals MVP and has an off series then that ring will be devalued. It's a very fluid debate. Absolutes when it comes to something as specific as "when does durant pass kobe" are hard to answer but luckily for everyone on the PSD NBA Forum you and I figured it out. Win the next 3 Finals MVPs! Pretty simple guys.

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 04:09 PM
I disagree with that lol. I think you are basically ignoring everything outside of one series that likely doesn't matter anyways (no east team is close to being capable of topping gs).

Curry is the best offensive player all year (team relies on him to create/his gravity) and green is defensively. Yes in a series where the other team has pretty much chosen to stop curry (like they did in previous years) Durant can play off that attention and rack up the stats but I just don't think that alone separates him from lets even just say curry on an all time list.

tredigs
11-08-2017, 04:33 PM
Curry indeed was and is their best offensive player. Although in the Finals I give credit to KD for capitalizing on his newfound freedom to the nth degree and playing like the All Timer that he is. KD was also better to begin the season. But after he went down, Curry sort of shifted gears and became their clear most important piece again, and that last throughout the majority of the playoffs and into this year. Where I differ from many is that I think an All Timer can increase their legacy regardless if they're the 1a or 1b. As there are no other instances of that not growing another players legacy in the past.

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 04:35 PM
Curry indeed was and is their best offensive player. Although in the Finals I give credit to KD for capitalizing on his newfound freedom to the nth degree and playing like the All Timer that he is. KD was also better to begin the season. But after he went down, Curry sort of shifted gears and became their clear most important piece again, and that last throughout the majority of the playoffs and into this year. Where I differ from many is that I think an All Timer can increase their legacy regardless if they're the 1a or 1b. As there are no other instances of that not growing another players legacy in the past.

I think the issue here is that 1a and 1b are in their prime/peak fighting for top 10 status and with a team that has a gap over the league like we haven't seen in a while.

However despite our differences there I am very curious on who you think is the better/most important individual to gs, curry or Durant. If it's even it's even I am honestly just curious on a capable gs fans perspective here...

Do you think losing one hurts you more than the other?

Chronz
11-08-2017, 04:47 PM
I think the issue here is that 1a and 1b are in their prime/peak fighting for top 10 status and with a team that has a gap over the league like we haven't seen in a while.

However despite our differences there I am very curious on who you think is the better/most important individual to gs, curry or Durant. If it's even it's even I am honestly just curious on a capable gs fans perspective here...

Do you think losing one hurts you more than the other?

I think we've seen kd struggle with defenses keying mostly on him than curry. I can't imagine the dubs losing anyone and curry not being able to outperform the way kd played without rwb in the post season

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 04:50 PM
I mean that's partially what I am getting at. Kd has had two great playoff runs, one with Westbrook/harden/Ibaka on his team and the other with curry/klay/green.

When he hasn't had extreme support he has not been very impressive individually... (Even Pop chose to put kawhi on westy over kd their last year together)

I just wanna know from someone who watches the Warriors more than me his take on the curry/kd conversation on who is better/more necessary.

tredigs
11-08-2017, 09:34 PM
@mngopher, to put it simply the answer is Curry. A) He was the 1st there and the system was built around his game, B) He may be the Offensive GOAT when it is all said and done.

The RPM stats obviously back it up in droves, but the eye test does as well. Curry is the player the defense focuses on, and it goes from there. Not a slight on KD either, it's just two ATG's on the same team at the same time. Though I can fully understand how it obfuscates the ranking parties that we all love.

mngopher35
11-08-2017, 10:15 PM
@mngopher, to put it simply the answer is Curry. A) He was the 1st there and the system was built around his game, B) He may be the Offensive GOAT when it is all said and done.

The RPM stats obviously back it up in droves, but the eye test does as well. Curry is the player the defense focuses on, and it goes from there. Not a slight on KD either, it's just two ATG's on the same team at the same time. Though I can fully understand how it obfuscates the ranking parties that we all love.

It really does make things interesting to judge, people see it different ways.

I am with you, to me Curry is the one who is the engine for the team and the system is designed around his game. That's what I was getting at with the FMVP thing, just because Durant is winning that doesn't even mean he is the best player on this team.

I honestly think you might be able to handle losing KD more than you could losing Green. It's just a completely different situation overall and we will have to let it all play out before we know for sure what he proves.

Quinnsanity
11-08-2017, 10:49 PM
It's all in the nature of the list. I think it's pretty obvious that Durant is better at basketball than Kobe, that he gives you a better chance at winning. But it's also pretty obvious that, short of winning the next five or six titles in a row, there are too many asterisks surrounding the state of Durant's team for him ever to accomplish more in his career than Kobe did. So it depends on what you're really asking. If the question is, "what does Durant have to do to prove he is better at basketball than Kobe Bryant was?" The answer is a resounding nothing. You would have to be batshit insane to say you would prefer Kobe Bryant on your team than Durant. But if the question is "what does Durant have to accomplish to have done more in the league than Kobe," the answer is, probably, that it would be impossible, because he stacked the deck in such a way that his accomplishments are inherently less valuable than Kobe's.

alex14
11-08-2017, 11:21 PM
As a Kings fan i naturally hate Kobe Bryant. With that being said, there's almost nothing that would make Durant surpass Kobe at this point. The damage was done. Durant chickened out, turned on easy mode, and ruined the NBA for at least a season in the process.

nastynice
11-09-2017, 12:52 AM
He was indeed awesome in last year's finals, though obviously the attention paid to Curry/Klay greatly helped him dominate. If the Warriors win the next 3 titles and he is the clear cut MVP in every Finals, yeah maybe we start talking about KD as Top 10 and surpassing Kobe.

But it's hard for me to believe KD will win the next 3 FMVP for the Warriors simply because their team is so talented, no telling who could get hot during the Finals.

He actually has a pretty good chance because his game def translates into those 1 on 1 domination moments. Curry kinda flies under the radar, its just his style, but he's actually the one guy we CANNOT let walk. He's kinda better in a way to be honest, at least to me, his game has the best potential to turn into chips. Gives you the highest team ceiling

Chronz
11-09-2017, 02:00 PM
As a Kings fan i naturally hate Kobe Bryant. With that being said, there's almost nothing that would make Durant surpass Kobe at this point. The damage was done. Durant chickened out, turned on easy mode, and ruined the NBA for at least a season in the process.

Hate to break the even worse news to you but it's going to take the CBA and other teams more than 1 year to correct such a gap but hopefully they choke or lose a star

nastynice
11-09-2017, 02:48 PM
How ARE the warriors SO stacked??

Is everyone taking paycuts on that team? I know KD kind of is, but that's just this one year and then next year. Obviously the Curry deal is what allowed us so much flexibility to begin with, but how DO we have so many sick players? iggy, livingston, swaggy p, this boy Bell is gonna be a stud I'm already calling it, and that's all AFTER a big 4. Remember how hard we got trashed on these boards with both the klay and draymond signings

pay role
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/GSW.html

nastynice
11-09-2017, 03:00 PM
damn, compare gsw to cle

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/CLE.html

After lebron and love all the contracts are garbage until you get down to Crowder and IT, GREAT value contracts, and cleveland didn't even make those deals! (boston did, and not surprisingly they look poised to be a top team/favorite in the east for years to come)

I'm sorry man, you guys wanna keep *****ing about the warriors being over stacked, but if the rest of the league got inept owners then thats on them. wtf is that thompson, smith, shumpert, frye, what the hell contracts are those??

And then the second best contract on that team, kevin love, you got what was the best offensive pf in the league and parked him out at 3 pt territory. He's not bosh, he's not elite, if you take that away from him its gonna be hard for him to impact the game in other ways.

Dubs know how to find important role pieces, even Mccaw, rookie bell, and shaqtin Mcgee look pretty damn good on the court with Curry. Swap JR smith with Swaggy P, all of a sudden people are saying Swaggy is the garbage teammate that can't help lebron and JR is the dangerous streaky guy that steps up when need be. But that's a whole nother discussion, about how if we are talking 5 on 5 and not 1 on 1, curry is actually the best player in the league, and has been for 4 years, but we'll just talk about that in another thread... :D

mightybosstone
11-09-2017, 03:17 PM
How ARE the warriors SO stacked??

Is everyone taking paycuts on that team? I know KD kind of is, but that's just this one year and then next year. Obviously the Curry deal is what allowed us so much flexibility to begin with, but how DO we have so many sick players? iggy, livingston, swaggy p, this boy Bell is gonna be a stud I'm already calling it, and that's all AFTER a big 4. Remember how hard we got trashed on these boards with both the klay and draymond signings

pay role
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/GSW.html


damn, compare gsw to cle

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/CLE.html

After lebron and love all the contracts are garbage until you get down to Crowder and IT, GREAT value contracts, and cleveland didn't even make those deals! (boston did, and not surprisingly they look poised to be a top team/favorite in the east for years to come)

I'm sorry man, you guys wanna keep *****ing about the warriors being over stacked, but if the rest of the league got inept owners then thats on them. wtf is that thompson, smith, shumpert, frye, what the hell contracts are those??

And then the second best contract on that team, kevin love, you got what was the best offensive pf in the league and parked him out at 3 pt territory. He's not bosh, he's not elite, if you take that away from him its gonna be hard for him to impact the game in other ways.

Dubs know how to find important role pieces, even Mccaw, rookie bell, and shaqtin Mcgee look pretty damn good on the court with Curry. Swap JR smith with Swaggy P, all of a sudden people are saying Swaggy is the garbage teammate that can't help lebron and JR is the dangerous streaky guy that steps up when need be. But that's a whole nother discussion, about how if we are talking 5 on 5 and not 1 on 1, curry is actually the best player in the league, and has been for 4 years, but we'll just talk about that in another thread... :D

What does this have to do with the thread? It seems ridiculously off-topic and a bit like you're trolling.

chitownkid
11-09-2017, 03:20 PM
The question is simple: What else must Durant do in his career in order for you to rank him ahead of The Black Mamba All-Time?

take every shot

Chronz
11-09-2017, 03:33 PM
Someone just got triggered

FlashBolt
11-09-2017, 04:01 PM
I'm not totally convinced I would take KD over Kobe. He's a more efficient scorer but there are some things lacking that weren't revealed until now. The lack of hate KD gets is astounding because he's such a dork. When it was Kobe vs LeBron, LeBron was better but there was hate from both sides. KD vs LeBron, no one bats an eye at KD for not being better. When his time was up, Curry snoops in and again, no one talks about KD for a period of time until he decides to join the Warriors. He gets off way too easily and doesn't get enough hate for some of the things he was never able to accomplish.

I mean, the fact that KD was willing to let Russell run the show and then years later, complained about it just shows a lack of wanting to be the alpha. It would make sense for him to run to the Warriors because he would then be recognized as a champion while not really having to be an alpha but taking on some alpha-responsibilities.

His legacy is tainted, to be honest. By skill and basketball talent alone, he would make my top 20 list even without a championship. It wouldn't be out of the picture to put KD as a top 15 player by career's end even had he not won a championship. But anywhere near the top 10? Sorry. Those are reserved for players who held their own and won - not for guys who couldn't hold their own and chose to join a guaranteed championship squad. All Warriors had to do was play average and they could beat a team that still played their peak ability. Cavs played their PEAK at the Finals. Kyrie+Bron were just insane and that still wasn't enough.

FYI, OKC 2011 were actually favorites vs the Heat. Harden and Westbrook just had pretty underwhelming games and that cost us. I wouldn't blame that on KD at all but the notion that he didn't have the squad is laughable. Sixth man of the year along with a top five PG isn't enough? And we had IBAKA - who was a perfect player under our team while leading the league at over 3.7 blocks per game? Yeah, we had what it took.

FlashBolt
11-09-2017, 04:04 PM
Some guy really trying to say the Warriors aren't stacked.. LMAO. What an absolute joke. Is that what you convince yourself to validate a championship? You guys won and still won't admit that you have a stacked team. Oh please, I wish I could be a fan of a team that were stacked so hard that every game I watch is a double-digit win and I can sit there with my cup of tea bragging about it on basketball forums. Boohoo. You guys saying it isn't stacked probably think the Warriors are huge underdogs.

Chronz
11-09-2017, 04:12 PM
Some guy really trying to say the Warriors aren't stacked.. LMAO. What an absolute joke. Is that what you convince yourself to validate a championship? You guys won and still won't admit that you have a stacked team. Oh please, I wish I could be a fan of a team that were stacked so hard that every game I watch is a double-digit win and I can sit there with my cup of tea bragging about it on basketball forums. Boohoo. You guys saying it isn't stacked probably think the Warriors are huge underdogs.

Bill burr has a hilarious take on dubs fans you should give a listen

nastynice
11-10-2017, 02:11 AM
What does this have to do with the thread? It seems ridiculously off-topic and a bit like you're trolling.

Everyoneís talking about how he joined a stacked team, how is my bringing up how the warriors are stacked off topic? lol

Not trolling, Iím not even sure how you would get that, Iím just saying everyoneís complaining about the warriors super stackedness, but itís not like we got a bunch of guys taking paycuts to stack the team, everything is pretty on par. Weíre just better run, top to bottom, and KD wanted to join a well run organization

I was looking at Houston, outside of Ryan Anderson they have all good contracts

IKnowHoops
11-10-2017, 03:25 AM
Everyoneís talking about how he joined a stacked team, how is my bringing up how the warriors are stacked off topic? lol

Not trolling, Iím not even sure how you would get that, Iím just saying everyoneís complaining about the warriors super stackedness, but itís not like we got a bunch of guys taking paycuts to stack the team, everything is pretty on par. Weíre just better run, top to bottom, and KD wanted to join a well run organization

I was looking at Houston, outside of Ryan Anderson they have all good contracts

No, you got lucky. Spurs are run better than everyone, your team made some great moves, and the cap exploded the end.

nastynice
11-10-2017, 04:34 AM
No, you got lucky. Spurs are run better than everyone, your team made some great moves, and the cap exploded the end.

No, the cap rules applied to EVERY team the same. ALL 32 teams got to enjoy the same cap jump we did. If the NBA held a lottery to choose a team that gets an exclusive cap jump and we won that lottery, then I would agree with you that we got lucky. But the rules applied to our team exactly the same as they did every other team in the league

I fail to see what made us so lucky and everyone else so unlucky.

Saddletramp
11-10-2017, 04:37 AM
No, you got lucky. Spurs are run better than everyone, your team made some great moves, and the cap exploded the end.

Yep. Second round pick turning into what Green has become? The cap spike happening in the same year a ***** *** like Durant is a FA? Curry getting hurt, taking less, and those savings expire right after Klay and Green extend and the cap spike year? Multiple injuries for their opponents in those first two Finals runs? Kerr breaking his promise to Phil? Iguodala ratting out his team and then immediately joining the team he was ratting to? (Actually, those last two were more low character moves).


They've had a lot of success but some of that is luck. To deny that is short sighted and lazy thinking, but it's nastynice so what do you expect?

nastynice
11-10-2017, 05:59 AM
Yep. Second round pick turning into what Green has become? The cap spike happening in the same year a ***** *** like Durant is a FA? Curry getting hurt, taking less, and those savings expire right after Klay and Green extend and the cap spike year? Multiple injuries for their opponents in those first two Finals runs? Kerr breaking his promise to Phil? Iguodala ratting out his team and then immediately joining the team he was ratting to? (Actually, those last two were more low character moves).


They've had a lot of success but some of that is luck. To deny that is short sighted and lazy thinking, but it's nastynice so what do you expect?

Not any kind of special luck other teams haven't had

We didn't get lucky with Draymond, Curry and Klay are both playing clearly higher than projected too. We just put together a good squad, pieces that complement one another.

Yea, we're lucky that KD happens to be KD and was a FA during a year we had a spike. But that applies to everyone, KD was available to everyone, not just us. I don't know how far ahead the cba was signed before that summer, but each team was on level playing field. We stayed flexible enough to make a move like that. If we didn't pick up KD well that's twenty something mill a year we could pay someone, any top 10-15 player in the league coulda been a free agent (that fits our system) and we coulda made a legit run at them.

Yea, we got lucky with curry, but hey that's a risk we took, it paid off. Anyone else coulda offered him more if they wanted to. Klay and Draymond signings were calculated, and we already knew about the cap jumps when they extended, so its not like we lucked into it or anything. People were clowning us for overpaying when we made those two signings

lol, Iggy saw people taking shots that coulda ****ed up dude's career, told him to watch out, what a low character guy :rolleyes: Is iggy playing for us for free? Or is that a part of the whole assemble a roster thing I was talking about earlier?

haha, and what's this about a broken promise to phil? you taking things too personal

We've had luck, sure, but nothing above and beyond what other teams experience. Miami was lucky. Three guys got together and figured they'd take pay cuts and play together, and they chose miami (well, miami was better run than cle and tor also, so they did also play a role in getting themselves lucky). Cleveland was lucky. They got the #1 pick the year the highest rated player to EVER enter the draft, highest EVER BY FAR, comes in. They've had what, like 3 #1 picks in a span of 4 years, even a few other top 5 picks somewhere in there I think, are you kidding me? THAT'S luck. All our picks were high end single digit and low double. We are not lucky. We are well run.

More-Than-Most
11-10-2017, 06:11 AM
No, the cap rules applied to EVERY team the same. ALL 32 teams got to enjoy the same cap jump we did. If the NBA held a lottery to choose a team that gets an exclusive cap jump and we won that lottery, then I would agree with you that we got lucky. But the rules applied to our team exactly the same as they did every other team in the league

I fail to see what made us so lucky and everyone else so unlucky.

you are failing horribly here man... the cap rules applied to everyteam but it shouldnt have... Meaning the warriors had best team in the world by far talent with the ability to bring in Durant BECAUSE OF THE CAP THAT 1 YEAR... Yes all teams had that chance but its the first real time that happened and durant ran to the best team in the world because he could... so saying all teams had the same cap rule is just lazy.

nastynice
11-10-2017, 06:42 AM
you are failing horribly here man... the cap rules applied to everyteam but it shouldnt have... Meaning the warriors had best team in the world by far talent with the ability to bring in Durant BECAUSE OF THE CAP THAT 1 YEAR... Yes all teams had that chance but its the first real time that happened and durant ran to the best team in the world because he could... so saying all teams had the same cap rule is just lazy.

No, like I said, it didn't have to be a top 3 player in the league, it coulda been any top 15 player that fit our system, we stayed flexible and we coulda made that move, and we'd be pretty close to what we are now.

No special type a luck needed, just your average "every championship team has a little luck" type a luck :)

*in a historical sense, yes we're lucky. Because if you compare us to other great teams from before, they didn't get a jump in the cap, so sure I get that. But just regarding here and now, nba in 2017, there was nothing lucky about anything we did. We set ourselves up to make a move.

ewing
11-10-2017, 07:50 AM
win after Curry and Thompson go down for the year

MygirlhatesCod
11-10-2017, 10:01 AM
The only thing that makes me happier than the dubs winning is the crying from other teams fans. The disdain for the dubs should be directed to your favorite teams front office for being ran incompetently. I've been a warriors fan since the early 90's and I don't ever recall complaining about their lack of wins due to how OTHER teams are assembled.

MygirlhatesCod
11-10-2017, 10:17 AM
Kobe
Games:1346
PTS:25.0 TRB: 5.2 AST:4.7 FG%:44.7 FG3%:32.9 FT%:83.7 eFG%:48.2 PER:22.9 WS:172.7

KD
Games:714
PTS:27.2 TRB:7.2 AST:3.8 FG%:48.8 FG3%:38.1 FT%:88.2 eFG%:53.6 PER:25.2 WS:121.6

KD's numbers are noticeably getting better as a member of the warriors. To me he has surpassed Kobe already. Plus KD hasn't raped anyone which to me puts him head and shoulders above.

LaVar Ball
11-10-2017, 12:08 PM
Durant can never surpass Kobe. He doesnít have the mental makeup or fortitude that Kobe or the other all time greats had.


Talented yes. And now he can take advantage of averaging 35 ppg in a system that is conducive to his talents and a stacked team that relieves himself of the pressure.

LA4life24/8
11-10-2017, 01:26 PM
He needs to win at least 1 ring where he is the clear alpha and thats not got an all star starting line up. If he can do that then there's a good chance he passes kobe but if not then he'll be right behind him.

LOb0
11-10-2017, 03:07 PM
Durant can never surpass Kobe. He doesnít have the mental makeup or fortitude that Kobe or the other all time greats had.


Talented yes. And now he can take advantage of averaging 35 ppg in a system that is conducive to his talents and a stacked team that relieves himself of the pressure.

Exactly. You know how much easier playing is when you have no pressure or are even challenged? I don't care how good his numbers are at this point. It's meaningless when you're talking all time rank.

We all saw what Durant was truly made of in game 6 vs GS the year before he left. He choked. He's a guy that is just not good enough when the stakes were the highest. Kobe proved he was.

Chronz
11-10-2017, 04:09 PM
The only thing that makes me happier than the dubs winning is the crying from other teams fans. The disdain for the dubs should be directed to your favorite teams front office for being ran incompetently. I've been a warriors fan since the early 90's and I don't ever recall complaining about their lack of wins due to how OTHER teams are assembled.

That's cuz you're a fan of the team and not seeing the big picture. Crying? Lmfao, I made bank the minute that coward ran to y'all. Don't mistake calling it how it is for crying.

Chronz
11-10-2017, 04:20 PM
Yep. Second round pick turning into what Green has become? The cap spike happening in the same year a ***** *** like Durant is a FA? Curry getting hurt, taking less, and those savings expire right after Klay and Green extend and the cap spike year? Multiple injuries for their opponents in those first two Finals runs? Kerr breaking his promise to Phil? Iguodala ratting out his team and then immediately joining the team he was ratting to? (Actually, those last two were more low character moves).


They've had a lot of success but some of that is luck. To deny that is short sighted and lazy thinking, but it's nastynice so what do you expect?

Don't forget trading Jefferson n someone to the jazz. Luck always plays a role

nastynice
11-10-2017, 05:56 PM
Don't forget trading Jefferson n someone to the jazz. Luck always plays a role

haha, well if its luck ALWAYS plays a role then what's the point of mentioning that? Clippers were lucky cp3 to the lakers got nixed. Rockets were lucky okc didn't resign harden. Then double lucky that they happened to have the cap space and not all their money tied up the year harden was a free agent. San antonio's lucky that they had a solid contender that lost robinson for one year allowing them to get Duncan thrown onto an already well built team. They're lucky to draft parker in the 20's. Lucky that the pacers let go of kawhi. lol, look I get it, certain things fell our way, but c'mon should we really be categorized as "lucky"?

MygirlhatesCod
11-11-2017, 03:19 PM
That's cuz you're a fan of the team and not seeing the big picture. Crying? Lmfao, I made bank the minute that coward ran to y'all. Don't mistake calling it how it is for crying.

whats the big picture? im pretty sure its winning! calling it how it is would be legit if you establish your view and move on. but we both know that the constant complaining about the same thing over and over stops being "calling it what it is" and turns into crying/b itching.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2017, 09:24 AM
The big picture is desire for competition, and watching supposed generational players lift teams to great heights through adversity. These are why we love and cherish sports.

Durant went the other way, there is no competition, and we are robbed of seeing an all timer power through difficulty and show us success the old fashioned way.

europagnpilgrim
11-12-2017, 10:45 AM
Kobe
Games:1346
PTS:25.0 TRB: 5.2 AST:4.7 FG%:44.7 FG3%:32.9 FT%:83.7 eFG%:48.2 PER:22.9 WS:172.7

KD
Games:714
PTS:27.2 TRB:7.2 AST:3.8 FG%:48.8 FG3%:38.1 FT%:88.2 eFG%:53.6 PER:25.2 WS:121.6

KD's numbers are noticeably getting better as a member of the warriors. To me he has surpassed Kobe already. Plus KD hasn't raped anyone which to me puts him head and shoulders above.

You must hate United States then because it was re- built/ colonized on rape/murder etc. by the fake political powers that be, you must hate Hollywood casting couch directors as well, I don't know which has done more awful mental damage to those done wrong, kid-napping or rape

europagnpilgrim
11-12-2017, 10:52 AM
The big picture is desire for competition, and watching supposed generational players lift teams to great heights through adversity. These are why we love and cherish sports.

Durant went the other way, there is no competition, and we are robbed of seeing an all timer power through difficulty and show us success the old fashioned way.

those old fashion ways are just a remix of today, Russell didn't have to ring chase because he had the team, Wilt couldn't ring chase because he was the league and which ever team he was on outside of Celtics were the 2nd best or 1a, too bad Auerbach couldn't get Wilt to go to a regional college or Wilt would have 10-13 rings easily

Magic who is a generational player didn't want to get drafted by Bulls and said he would have went back to college had LA not won the coin toss to play with the Lakers storied franchise and best player in the league Kareem

I mean I get exactly what you are saying but its many instances where players go through adversity only to be old and washed up ring chasing, see Barkley/Malone and others for example

its just Lebron and KD remixed the old players ways and did it younger and didn't wait until they got old and washed up and end up like the 97/98 Rockets or like Pippen went to the stacked Blazers and came up short which was a good move by Pippen but he was basically the veteran voice at that point who played good in small spurts,nothing like what he was during his early run with the Bulls

we can only roll on KD for remixing it to a level we think is superweak, but weak moves were already made in the nba before KD was even born,fact

europagnpilgrim
11-12-2017, 10:57 AM
whats the big picture? im pretty sure its winning! calling it how it is would be legit if you establish your view and move on. but we both know that the constant complaining about the same thing over and over stops being "calling it what it is" and turns into crying/b itching.


Your BoyzNTheHood pic is pure super classic, best one on here all time in my book as of right now

Saddletramp
11-12-2017, 03:32 PM
The big picture is desire for competition, and watching supposed generational players lift teams to great heights through adversity. These are why we love and cherish sports.

Durant went the other way, there is no competition, and we are robbed of seeing an all timer power through difficulty and show us success the old fashioned way.

Exactly. I watch sports to see the best of the best go at it, not one team conquer all because some guys want to be handed a trophy. I don't watch college ball or women's sports (except occasionally tennis) because I want to see the best in the world against each other, not join already top of the line teams.



If Durant would have went to the Rockets that had already just recently won a title, I would have felt a little dirty like it was a cheat code. I would have still enjoyed rooting for them and the incoming titles but it would have seemed a bit hollow.

Allphakenny1
11-12-2017, 05:04 PM
Exactly. I watch sports to see the best of the best go at it, not one team conquer all because some guys want to be handed a trophy. I don't watch college ball or women's sports (except occasionally tennis) because I want to see the best in the world against each other, not join already top of the line teams.



If Durant would have went to the Rockets that had already just recently won a title, I would have felt a little dirty like it was a cheat code. I would have still enjoyed rooting for them and the incoming titles but it would have seemed a bit hollow.

In terms of team championships, there is nothing that should be considered hollow about any titles the Warriors win. Their only job is to win championships and they have been the premier organization in the league the last five or so years. I understand people diminishing the championship as its overall impact towards Durant's legacy, but nothing can be taken away from the team's legacy.

Saddletramp
11-13-2017, 01:44 AM
In terms of team championships, there is nothing that should be considered hollow about any titles the Warriors win. Their only job is to win championships and they have been the premier organization in the league the last five or so years. I understand people diminishing the championship as its overall impact towards Durant's legacy, but nothing can be taken away from the team's legacy.

To each their own.

Hawkeye15
11-13-2017, 12:57 PM
In terms of team championships, there is nothing that should be considered hollow about any titles the Warriors win. Their only job is to win championships and they have been the premier organization in the league the last five or so years. I understand people diminishing the championship as its overall impact towards Durant's legacy, but nothing can be taken away from the team's legacy.

there isn't anything hollow about a team championship. What a chip does for an individual players legacy, damn right they all mean something different. I think we agree on that, if I am reading your post right man.

Chronz
11-13-2017, 01:33 PM
To each their own.

He's right. Gs fans should be allowed some level of pride with regards to their talent disparity. No other fan base will ever experience this amount of luck and timing

ewing
11-13-2017, 02:21 PM
Maybe if he killed a loin with his bare hands

Hawkeye15
11-13-2017, 02:35 PM
Maybe if he killed a loin with his bare hands

maybe

smith&wesson
11-13-2017, 05:48 PM
KD will always be remembered for 1 thing no matter what he does in his career. That is something he put on himself.

He joined a 72 win team who just won a ship. That will always be a huge part of his legacy and likely what ppl will talk about in 30 years when his name is brought up.

smith&wesson
11-13-2017, 05:58 PM
He's right. Gs fans should be allowed some level of pride with regards to their talent disparity. No other fan base will ever experience this amount of luck and timing

Getting Durant was great for the teams legacy no doubt .. they've done it all right. You can't hold anything against a franchise for getting the best talent available.

Again fantastic for the team. But the move was horrible for his own personal legacy.

smith&wesson
11-13-2017, 06:00 PM
I would find it interesting if KD and Lebron teamed up. At this point I wouldn't put it passed either of them. Might as well make a super villain team where Lebron and Durant basically say "yeah this is who we are so what" embrace the heel role full fledge

nastynice
11-13-2017, 07:52 PM
The big picture is desire for competition, and watching supposed generational players lift teams to great heights through adversity. These are why we love and cherish sports.

Durant went the other way, there is no competition, and we are robbed of seeing an all timer power through difficulty and show us success the old fashioned way.

I hear ya. Itís crazy how good this team is. Last year was honestly a warm up and we went 16-1 in the playoffs, and EVEN with a historic shooting night, if we had some decent ref in the first half weíre most likely looking at 16-0 first time in history with a team barely warming up. Itís borderline unreal.

I sit there and I feel bad for other teams. Philly hangs tough thru the half feeling good (philly is gonna be ridic very soon), third quarter we just hit the gas and we gone. They just sitting there like wtf just happened. You could see, these warriors, this might be some sort of thing we ainít never seen before

No pay cuts. No banana boats. Just one sick *** run franchise. So long as we stay healthy and hungry, no reason we shouldnít run the table as constructed

Lebronís gonna have to team up with some major firepower next season in order to give us something to watch. Itís what he always does anyways, heís def the king of that trend. Last time he teamed up he didnít realize where golden state was gonna set the bar, but now he sees so now he can move accordingly. Itíll be fun to see where he goes, and if we can continue this little lebron vs gs thing we got going...

nastynice
11-13-2017, 07:57 PM
I would find it interesting if KD and Lebron teamed up. At this point I wouldn't put it passed either of them. Might as well make a super villain team where Lebron and Durant basically say "yeah this is who we are so what" embrace the heel role full fledge

That would be the sickest combo ever. Natural facilitator lebron wants nothing more than a natural scorer to pass too. Natural scorer KD want nothing more than a natural facilitator to get passes from.

nastynice
11-13-2017, 07:59 PM
No other fan base will ever experience this amount of luck and timing

Saltyyy haha

Give credit where credit is due brotha :)

Chronz
11-13-2017, 08:05 PM
Saltyyy haha

Give credit where credit is due brotha :)

Untrue. Do you really think we'll ever get the confluence of events to such a degree? Lol it's simply that rare, you should be loving it instead of conjuring up emotions on behalf of other fans

HandsOnTheWheel
11-13-2017, 09:31 PM
Are golden state fans still thinking that they're in a rational mindset defending Durant's decision? Shocker.

tredigs
11-13-2017, 10:24 PM
Are golden state fans still thinking that they're in a rational mindset defending Durant's decision? Shocker.

Most GS fans don't really care, and are able to compartmentalize a players skill + legacy with what team they play on. The irrational weirdos in the debate are the guys that you see in online threads like this (see: you), and they don't penetrate the over-arching dialogue concerning his career.


Untrue. Do you really think we'll ever get the confluence of events to such a degree? Lol it's simply that rare, you should be loving it instead of conjuring up emotions on behalf of other fans
Correct. We will also very rarely see an organization + leadership (Owners/GM down to the captains) that is ran as well as Golden State. They were already the best team in the NBA based on the players + culture they developed, then they got lucky with a cap-spike (but guess what, it spiked for everyone) and widened the gap.

Enjoy the show.

HandsOnTheWheel
11-13-2017, 10:31 PM
Most GS fans don't really care, and are able to compartmentalize a players skill + legacy with what team they play on. The irrational weirdos in the debate are the guys that you see in online threads like this (see: you), and they don't penetrate the over-arching dialogue concerning his career.

Lol alright pal. You can't sit there and rationally tell me that Durant is not a ***** though.

tredigs
11-13-2017, 10:54 PM
Lol alright pal. You can't sit there and rationally tell me that Durant is not a ***** though.

I consider posters like yourself the *****, not the grown man making a decision that he thinks will most benefit his life, specifically knowing the backlash it will bring.

HandsOnTheWheel
11-13-2017, 10:59 PM
I consider posters like yourself the *****, not the grown man making a decision that he thinks will most benefit his life, specifically knowing the backlash it will bring.

You don't know me. You think you're big talking big on an internet forum? Give it a break dude

tredigs
11-13-2017, 10:59 PM
To further that point - I have never once had the slightest issue with another man choosing where he will live and who he will play with, including Lebron (who I endlessly defended on here against the horde of clowns). Hint: I still don't. If you play within the rules (especially when you take the max contract) and come from a position of just wanting to be in the best position for yourself and your family from a business/personal standpoint, more power to you. I'm not a child, I understand how the world works.

Hawkeye15
11-13-2017, 11:10 PM
To further that point - I have never once had the slightest issue with another man choosing where he will live and who he will play with, including Lebron (who I endlessly defended on here against the horde of clowns). Hint: I still don't. If you play within the rules (especially when you take the max contract) and come from a position of just wanting to be in the best position for yourself and your family from a business/personal standpoint, more power to you. I'm not a child, I understand how the world works.

no doubt, but there are consequences to such an uncompetitive move, even if it's for the betterment of your situation. It will always follow Durant, because it was an unprecedented level of beta action by someone at a level where we simply expect more balls from.

Look, Durant did what was best for him, he has stayed consistent with the fact that he doesn't care what others think about him. However, even though it doesn't keep him up at night, there is in fact a massive portion of fans that think he vag'ed out. Is what it is.

By no means does it change Durant winning titles, being happy, and doing exactly what he wanted to do. Kudos to him, sometimes decisions benefit and hurt you.

Hawkeye15
11-13-2017, 11:13 PM
I hear ya. Itís crazy how good this team is. Last year was honestly a warm up and we went 16-1 in the playoffs, and EVEN with a historic shooting night, if we had some decent ref in the first half weíre most likely looking at 16-0 first time in history with a team barely warming up. Itís borderline unreal.

I sit there and I feel bad for other teams. Philly hangs tough thru the half feeling good (philly is gonna be ridic very soon), third quarter we just hit the gas and we gone. They just sitting there like wtf just happened. You could see, these warriors, this might be some sort of thing we ainít never seen before

No pay cuts. No banana boats. Just one sick *** run franchise. So long as we stay healthy and hungry, no reason we shouldnít run the table as constructed

Lebronís gonna have to team up with some major firepower next season in order to give us something to watch. Itís what he always does anyways, heís def the king of that trend. Last time he teamed up he didnít realize where golden state was gonna set the bar, but now he sees so now he can move accordingly. Itíll be fun to see where he goes, and if we can continue this little lebron vs gs thing we got going...

there has never been a team in sports that got both at once- perfectly run front office, AND luck. It's a double whammy haha. And we are watching the greatest team to ever play the game. I can't remember anywhere near the disparity between the #1, and #2 team in my years of watching.

At least it's not the Lakers, or some annoying team. The Warriors sucked for like 40 years haha, their fans deserve some success. But I still don't like them since last year, and don't think much of KD. Meh

smith&wesson
11-13-2017, 11:14 PM
He was crucified because he broke a verbal and public promise to a city and team of not leaving til he helps win a championship and he got impatient, and left to create a super team predicted to win 8 titles, and left with a 2-4 record in the playoffs with that team to try and make ANOTHER super team back in Cleveland.

When did Durant do similar? Don't worry, i'll wait.

He was crusified for going on air to announce his decision.. maybe Cleveland fans were disappointed that the home town kid left them but everyone else had a problem with the way he announced "the decision" as they called it.

nastynice
11-13-2017, 11:18 PM
Lol alright pal. You can't sit there and rationally tell me that Durant is not a ***** though.

No one has to tell you. Watch the kd lebron matchup from the finals and tell me who was whoís *****? lol

There nothing to tell you brother, we all saw the same ****, haha

Jamiecballer
11-13-2017, 11:20 PM
I consider posters like yourself the *****, not the grown man making a decision that he thinks will most benefit his life, specifically knowing the backlash it will bring.

i actually agree with this. not the insult part - obviously, but choosing what will make him happy even though he knows he will get destroyed for it is actually gutsy despite what other people say.

nastynice
11-13-2017, 11:21 PM
there has never been a team in sports that got both at once- perfectly run front office, AND luck. It's a double whammy haha. And we are watching the greatest team to ever play the game. I can't remember anywhere near the disparity between the #1, and #2 team in my years of watching.

At least it's not the Lakers, or some annoying team. The Warriors sucked for like 40 years haha, their fans deserve some success. But I still don't like them since last year, and don't think much of KD. Meh

It certainly has the potential to be the best...

And yes, I donít think the gap from 1 to 2 has ever been this wide in the 4 major sports

tredigs
11-13-2017, 11:26 PM
there has never been a team in sports that got both at once- perfectly run front office, AND luck. It's a double whammy haha. And we are watching the greatest team to ever play the game. I can't remember anywhere near the disparity between the #1, and #2 team in my years of watching.

At least it's not the Lakers, or some annoying team. The Warriors sucked for like 40 years haha, their fans deserve some success. But I still don't like them since last year, and don't think much of KD. Meh
I obviously fully understand the hate and am fine with it, but I'm not going to entertain the notion that he can't be considered better than "X" player simply because of where he's playing. I know what level of ball KD is capable of, pre/during/post Warriors. If he proves to be better than Kobe (I think he is) for longer than Kobe (we will see), then he's better than Kobe. Period.

smith&wesson
11-13-2017, 11:56 PM
there has never been a team in sports that got both at once- perfectly run front office, AND luck. It's a double whammy haha. And we are watching the greatest team to ever play the game. I can't remember anywhere near the disparity between the #1, and #2 team in my years of watching.

At least it's not the Lakers, or some annoying team. The Warriors sucked for like 40 years haha, their fans deserve some success. But I still don't like them since last year, and don't think much of KD. Meh

I disagree with that first part.. there was a huge Gap of the Bulls and the rest of the league at the time. If MJ wasn't gone for 2 years a lot of ppl think he would have 8 rings.

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 12:00 AM
I obviously fully understand the hate and am fine with it, but I'm not going to entertain the notion that he can't be considered better than "X" player simply because of where he's playing. I know what level of ball KD is capable of, pre/during/post Warriors. If he proves to be better than Kobe (I think he is) for longer than Kobe (we will see), then he's better than Kobe. Period.

But the hate isn't on the team it's on the player... the team has done nothing wrong at all.

You have to admit there's something difficult to accept about a top 2 talent joining a 72 win team, from the players stand point it's the very definition of riding coattails.. When comparing legacies that does matter imo.

tredigs
11-14-2017, 12:19 AM
But the hate isn't on the team it's on the player... the team has done nothing wrong at all.

You have to admit there's something difficult to accept about a top 2 talent joining a 72 win team, from the players stand point it's the very definition of riding coattails.. When comparing legacies that does matter imo.
Concerning the hate, I think the line has been muddled and people really only differentiate when pressed. As I've said a hundred times I understand the hate on KD, but I don't think proper weight is given given the fact that nobody (certainly less than 3 times in history max) of his caliber has actually ever been in that position (to be a free agent as a top player and able to sign for the max with the top team).

Ultimately, I get it, and I simply don't care. It comes off as extremely childish to warp your rankings based on a grown man's honest decision, and not his actual on-court impact. I'd rather more hate be placed on the dead-beat dad's and wife-beaters, if we're being real about off-court input here.

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 01:11 AM
Concerning the hate, I think the line has been muddled and people really only differentiate when pressed. As I've said a hundred times I understand the hate on KD, but I don't think proper weight is given given the fact that nobody (certainly less than 3 times in history max) of his caliber has actually ever been in that position (to be a free agent as a top player and able to sign for the max with the top team).

Ultimately, I get it, and I simply don't care. It comes off as extremely childish to warp your rankings based on a grown man's honest decision, and not his actual on-court impact. I'd rather more hate be placed on the dead-beat dad's and wife-beaters, if we're being real about off-court input here.

It's not childish at all. The man shied away from competition. That's hard to respect in competitive sports.

Durant got his ring riding the coat tails of a team that did it with out him and really didn't need him at all. The same team that just won 72 games, ran through him on their way to a championship, and we're already on their way to being a dynasty with out him... Again, it's something to consider man.

All these other players teaming up weren't going to teams that were winning ships with out them and setting all time records for most wins. They were forming to try and create something like that..

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 01:17 AM
also the lines aren't blurred for me at all, I've been a Warriors fan since the Baron Davis, Jason Richardson days ...all the way until now as Green and Curry are among my favorite players..

But I just can't respect what Durant did.

Saddletramp
11-14-2017, 02:54 AM
It's not childish at all. The man shied away from competition. That's hard to respect in competitive sports.

Durant got his ring riding the coat tails of a team that did it with out him and really didn't need him at all. The same team that just won 72 games, ran through him on their way to a championship, and we're already on their way to being a dynasty with out him... Again, it's something to consider man.

All these other players teaming up weren't going to teams that were winning ships with out them and setting all time records for most wins. They were forming to try and create something like that..

Exactly.

MygirlhatesCod
11-14-2017, 09:18 AM
so......this obviously turned into a bunch of complaining about where someone chose to work instead of the actual topic.
complain all you want broken records. wont change the fact that the dubs are winning and the ratings are up. you all should be happy about KD coming to the bay. without that move teams like the rockets, thunder, twolves, pelicans, Cavs, Boston, and kinda the bucks wouldn't have actually put some effort into putting a decent product on the court. for the first time in awhile im legit watching other teams (not just GSW) play.


Anyway all this "LUCK" is just karma for drafting Todd ****ing Fuller ahead of Kobe in 96.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 10:24 AM
I obviously fully understand the hate and am fine with it, but I'm not going to entertain the notion that he can't be considered better than "X" player simply because of where he's playing. I know what level of ball KD is capable of, pre/during/post Warriors. If he proves to be better than Kobe (I think he is) for longer than Kobe (we will see), then he's better than Kobe. Period.

right, but context forms at different levels for every person judging. Plenty will side with me, plenty with you. At the end of the day, Durant will get a fair ranking. I will probably have him low, you high.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 10:27 AM
I disagree with that first part.. there was a huge Gap of the Bulls and the rest of the league at the time. If MJ wasn't gone for 2 years a lot of ppl think he would have 8 rings.

disagree, but that is another subject. Phil using Horace as a whipping boy, and him joining the up and coming Magic, who were a nightmare matchup for the Bulls, would have disrupted that 8 peat.

I don't think the gap was a large each season for the Bulls. The last 3 chips, they had a couple of years where they weren't sprinting while the rest of the league was jogging. Furthermore, pile up the MVP's, All NBA teams, all star nods, etc, and after this GS team is done, they will have blown the doors off the talent level of every team ever. Also remember, Jordan didn't have to play himself, where as the Dubs just hammered a team led by a player on Jordan's level haha.

valade16
11-14-2017, 12:24 PM
Concerning the hate, I think the line has been muddled and people really only differentiate when pressed. As I've said a hundred times I understand the hate on KD, but I don't think proper weight is given given the fact that nobody (certainly less than 3 times in history max) of his caliber has actually ever been in that position (to be a free agent as a top player and able to sign for the max with the top team).

Ultimately, I get it, and I simply don't care. It comes off as extremely childish to warp your rankings based on a grown man's honest decision, and not his actual on-court impact. I'd rather more hate be placed on the dead-beat dad's and wife-beaters, if we're being real about off-court input here.

Well on-court impact is different than accomplishments.

If we're doing a list all-time of simply on-court impact KD wouldn't be Top 10 either. The reason the Warriors move will affect his legacy isn't because it will cheapen his on-court impact, we already know generally how good that is, it's because it will cheapen his accomplishments.

An All-Time list is a mix of on-court impact and accomplishments. He undoubtedly has a Top 20 on-court impact all-time. But given his peak on-court impact he needs to add accomplishments to move up the rankings, and his accomplishments won't be viewed as impressive as someone who didn't do what he did.

valade16
11-14-2017, 12:28 PM
no doubt, but there are consequences to such an uncompetitive move, even if it's for the betterment of your situation. It will always follow Durant, because it was an unprecedented level of beta action by someone at a level where we simply expect more balls from.

Look, Durant did what was best for him, he has stayed consistent with the fact that he doesn't care what others think about him. However, even though it doesn't keep him up at night, there is in fact a massive portion of fans that think he vag'ed out. Is what it is.

By no means does it change Durant winning titles, being happy, and doing exactly what he wanted to do. Kudos to him, sometimes decisions benefit and hurt you.

People seem to be confusing KD doing what is best for himself and his family with doing what will most benefit his legacy. Those are not mutually exclusive. He could have made the best decision for himself at the expense of his potential legacy.

Another thing people seem to be confusing is because he was free to make the move it can't be scrutinized or criticized. There is not a single person I've seen that hasn't agreed he was fully within his rights to do what he did, but that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion on what he did, nor does it mean what he did can't affect his legacy.

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 01:19 PM
disagree, but that is another subject. Phil using Horace as a whipping boy, and him joining the up and coming Magic, who were a nightmare matchup for the Bulls, would have disrupted that 8 peat.

I don't think the gap was a large each season for the Bulls. The last 3 chips, they had a couple of years where they weren't sprinting while the rest of the league was jogging. Furthermore, pile up the MVP's, All NBA teams, all star nods, etc, and after this GS team is done, they will have blown the doors off the talent level of every team ever. Also remember, Jordan didn't have to play himself, where as the Dubs just hammered a team led by a player on Jordan's level haha.

Yeah but we're not comparing the Bulls to the Warriors ... we're talking about the gap of each respective team to the rest of the league in each era.

I remember Orlando losing to the Bulls (with Grant) and Shaq leaving for the Lakers shortly after? Maybe I'm not remembering clearly but I think Penny was pretty much done after that as well wasn't he ?

I was just speaking of the sheer dominance the Bulls had over the rest of the league. But you're right now that I think of it Jordans first 6 years or so he had to go through Pistons and Celtics which were great teams in their own right.

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 01:34 PM
People seem to be confusing KD doing what is best for himself and his family with doing what will most benefit his legacy. Those are not mutually exclusive. He could have made the best decision for himself at the expense of his potential legacy.

Another thing people seem to be confusing is because he was free to make the move it can't be scrutinized or criticized. There is not a single person I've seen that hasn't agreed he was fully within his rights to do what he did, but that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion on what he did, nor does it mean what he did can't affect his legacy.

I don't even get the "doing what's best for family" arguement.

Durant would have gotten paid no matter where he went. This is about competition, in a competitive pro league he decided to go join a dynasty. The money would have been green no matter where he played and his family set for life regardless. Pulling that card doesn't really prove anything.

Durant simply joined the winners, to become one because he couldn't beat them on his own team. That's not competition. That certainly effects legacy imo

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 01:36 PM
Well on-court impact is different than accomplishments.

If we're doing a list all-time of simply on-court impact KD wouldn't be Top 10 either. The reason the Warriors move will affect his legacy isn't because it will cheapen his on-court impact, we already know generally how good that is, it's because it will cheapen his accomplishments.

An All-Time list is a mix of on-court impact and accomplishments. He undoubtedly has a Top 20 on-court impact all-time. But given his peak on-court impact he needs to add accomplishments to move up the rankings, and his accomplishments won't be viewed as impressive as someone who didn't do what he did.

Well said I can agree with this as well

mngopher35
11-14-2017, 01:39 PM
Well on-court impact is different than accomplishments.

If we're doing a list all-time of simply on-court impact KD wouldn't be Top 10 either. The reason the Warriors move will affect his legacy isn't because it will cheapen his on-court impact, we already know generally how good that is, it's because it will cheapen his accomplishments.

An All-Time list is a mix of on-court impact and accomplishments. He undoubtedly has a Top 20 on-court impact all-time. But given his peak on-court impact he needs to add accomplishments to move up the rankings, and his accomplishments won't be viewed as impressive as someone who didn't do what he did.

Yes I think your posts get to the point many have made pretty well here. It isn't like people are saying well he made this move so he now sucks as an individual player or anything like that (outside of trolls). It just makes it very hard to give him any credit for the accomplishments aspect when he joined a team that is favorite to win without him even playing. That is what we normally call a role player when giving out credit tbh not top 20 all time great etc.

If you look at KD's entire career he has had two good post season runs. One was when he was next to Westy/Harden/Ibaka and the other on this team. He has played well in the playoffs when surrounded by extreme talent like that yet in between those years with only one MVP type guy next to him and no other stars (or for one run even without that). PER 22.6, WS/48 .155, BPM 4.4 with an ortg of 110. The last 3 playoff runs combined for James Harden are higher in every single one of those areas yet KD is some top 10 talent while many take shots at Harden for his post season play. When KD is not surrounded by crazy talent he falls off in a major way as an individual player it would seem, to the extent of being slightly less productive statistically than James Harden. I can name tons of other players too, that was just one of the first I looked at to compare. I have pointed out how he almost always has a teammate outperforming him in RPM/RAPM and on/off numbers (Thunder and GS).

Going to a team that was already matching up with other all time greats without you will definitely get you accolades but it won't tell us anything about him as an individual. I saw a 31 year old Iggy double his ppg, guard Lebron all series and up his efficiency on the way to a FMVP next to this crew too. It's a bit easier when teams are focused more on stopping Curry and you get easy lanes or open shots with spacing etc. It was totally up to him to make the choice where he wanted to go but the accolades he gets now etc. are not the same type of boost given the obvious context of his move. Again he isn't the best offensive or defensive player on this team even.

smith&wesson
11-14-2017, 01:45 PM
also in my heart of hearts I believe Kobe is owed another MVP.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 02:35 PM
Yeah but we're not comparing the Bulls to the Warriors ... we're talking about the gap of each respective team to the rest of the league in each era.

I remember Orlando losing to the Bulls (with Grant) and Shaq leaving for the Lakers shortly after? Maybe I'm not remembering clearly but I think Penny was pretty much done after that as well wasn't he ?

I was just speaking of the sheer dominance the Bulls had over the rest of the league. But you're right now that I think of it Jordans first 6 years or so he had to go through Pistons and Celtics which were great teams in their own right.

nah, it's nitpicking, but I believe the Warriors have a larger gap between the 2nd place team than the Bulls did. Jordan is the GOAT, but he also caught the perfect timing, the league was a bit weaker imo, expansion had just happened, the great 80's teams were fading, and don't get me wrong, there were great players/teams, but I don't ever remember the seasons being a foregone conclusion, like last year, this year, and the future. But, crazy things happen in sports....

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 02:38 PM
People seem to be confusing KD doing what is best for himself and his family with doing what will most benefit his legacy. Those are not mutually exclusive. He could have made the best decision for himself at the expense of his potential legacy.

Another thing people seem to be confusing is because he was free to make the move it can't be scrutinized or criticized. There is not a single person I've seen that hasn't agreed he was fully within his rights to do what he did, but that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion on what he did, nor does it mean what he did can't affect his legacy.

exactly dude. Not sure how many times I have to spell it out. The Warriors, and Durant, did nothing wrong. This does nothing to tarnish the championship for the Warriors, they, and Durant, played within the rules. But individual legacy is a real thing, and Durant hurt his. He has plenty of time to make up for it, but he just isn't going to get the same credit a LeBron in 2016 did, for his finals MVP/win last year. Like not even remotely close actually.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 02:40 PM
I don't even get the "doing what's best for family" arguement.

Durant would have gotten paid no matter where he went. This is about competition, in a competitive pro league he decided to go join a dynasty. The money would have been green no matter where he played and his family set for life regardless. Pulling that card doesn't really prove anything.

Durant simply joined the winners, to become one because he couldn't beat them on his own team. That's not competition. That certainly effects legacy imo

Durant has stated he doesn't care what people think of him, or care about his legacy. He only wants to win. So, he stayed true to his word. However, that doesn't mean people aren't going to care, or judge him for his actions. That is how life works.

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 02:44 PM
Yes I think your posts get to the point many have made pretty well here. It isn't like people are saying well he made this move so he now sucks as an individual player or anything like that (outside of trolls). It just makes it very hard to give him any credit for the accomplishments aspect when he joined a team that is favorite to win without him even playing. That is what we normally call a role player when giving out credit tbh not top 20 all time great etc.

If you look at KD's entire career he has had two good post season runs. One was when he was next to Westy/Harden/Ibaka and the other on this team. He has played well in the playoffs when surrounded by extreme talent like that yet in between those years with only one MVP type guy next to him and no other stars (or for one run even without that). PER 22.6, WS/48 .155, BPM 4.4 with an ortg of 110. The last 3 playoff runs combined for James Harden are higher in every single one of those areas yet KD is some top 10 talent while many take shots at Harden for his post season play. When KD is not surrounded by crazy talent he falls off in a major way as an individual player it would seem, to the extent of being slightly less productive statistically than James Harden. I can name tons of other players too, that was just one of the first I looked at to compare. I have pointed out how he almost always has a teammate outperforming him in RPM/RAPM and on/off numbers (Thunder and GS).

Going to a team that was already matching up with other all time greats without you will definitely get you accolades but it won't tell us anything about him as an individual. I saw a 31 year old Iggy double his ppg, guard Lebron all series and up his efficiency on the way to a FMVP next to this crew too. It's a bit easier when teams are focused more on stopping Curry and you get easy lanes or open shots with spacing etc. It was totally up to him to make the choice where he wanted to go but the accolades he gets now etc. are not the same type of boost given the obvious context of his move. Again he isn't the best offensive or defensive player on this team even.

I have pointed this out before, but KD struggles with physicality much of the time. In the playoffs, when teams hone in on him, and body him up, he has been great, but not all timer great. The freedom he was given with Westy/Harden/Ibaka, and then even more so with the Dubs, allows him to just explode. It's why damn right I won't give him much credit for his title/MVP last season. Whoopity do he put up huge numbers against a defense that wasn't even sending doubles, or following him around the floor all night like they did LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, etc. I actually think Westbrook slowly developed into the ball hog he is partly because Durant could never get free late in the clock, because he was too physically weak. But give him freedom, and that skill level just kills you.

MygirlhatesCod
11-14-2017, 02:52 PM
I have pointed this out before, but KD struggles with physicality much of the time. In the playoffs, when teams hone in on him, and body him up, he has been great, but not all timer great. The freedom he was given with Westy/Harden/Ibaka, and then even more so with the Dubs, allows him to just explode. It's why damn right I won't give him much credit for his title/MVP last season. Whoopity do he put up huge numbers against a defense that wasn't even sending doubles, or following him around the floor all night like they did LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, etc. I actually think Westbrook slowly developed into the ball hog he is partly because Durant could never get free late in the clock, because he was too physically weak. But give him freedom, and that skill level just kills you.

Im on board with people saying KD doesn't possess the competitive edge that the majority view as standard. but blaming KD for westbrook being a selfish player is a bit much.

valade16
11-14-2017, 02:57 PM
If we were doing simply all-time, peak ability/on-court impact, where would KD rank?

Behind:

MJ
Kareem
LeBron
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
West
D-Rob
Curry

And then you have guys you could make cases were more impactful like:

Barkley
Wade
KG
Big O


And that's not even getting into guys like Harden, Westy, Kawhi, CP3 etc. or darkhorse guys like Walton and McGrady. There are plenty more I'm sure I forgot as well.

So I don't understand the obsession with trying to argue he could make the Top 10 ever based on his on-court impact. His on-court impact simply isn't Top 10 level all-time.

Saddletramp
11-14-2017, 03:16 PM
Durant has stated he doesn't care what people think of him, or care about his legacy. He only wants to win. So, he stayed true to his word. However, that doesn't mean people aren't going to care, or judge him for his actions. That is how life works.

Did he say that on his real twitter account or his fake one?

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 03:59 PM
Im on board with people saying KD doesn't possess the competitive edge that the majority view as standard. but blaming KD for westbrook being a selfish player is a bit much.

oh no, I am not blaming Durant. At all. I am simply saying, if you watched OKC a lot, Westbrook got in the habit of taking his own most times when Durant couldn't physically get free. Westy is a hyperactive freak, his pressing style was going to happen anyways.

nastynice
11-14-2017, 04:53 PM
. Whoopity do he put up huge numbers against a defense that wasn't even sending doubles, or following him around the floor all night like they did LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, etc.

I donít think lebron saw any more double teams than kd last finals...

Hawkeye15
11-14-2017, 05:09 PM
I donít think lebron saw any more double teams than kd last finals...

the entire defense is focused on LeBron. Always has been. Dude, KD had more freedom than he ever has, than any superstar ever has. Teams aren't game planning for Durant in GS. You can't. They have plenty of other HOF'ers that will destroy you if you concentrate on any single player too heavily.

Vee-Rex
11-14-2017, 06:33 PM
no doubt, but there are consequences to such an uncompetitive move, even if it's for the betterment of your situation. It will always follow Durant, because it was an unprecedented level of beta action by someone at a level where we simply expect more balls from.

Look, Durant did what was best for him, he has stayed consistent with the fact that he doesn't care what others think about him. However, even though it doesn't keep him up at night, there is in fact a massive portion of fans that think he vag'ed out. Is what it is.

By no means does it change Durant winning titles, being happy, and doing exactly what he wanted to do. Kudos to him, sometimes decisions benefit and hurt you.

On the contrary, I think he cares so much more than he's trying to let on. His meltdown during the offseason was evidence for that.

Years down the line there's gonna be some interesting stuff coming out of all of this.

LA4life24/8
11-14-2017, 07:47 PM
the entire defense is focused on LeBron. Always has been. Dude, KD had more freedom than he ever has, than any superstar ever has. Teams aren't game planning for Durant in GS. You can't. They have plenty of other HOF'ers that will destroy you if you concentrate on any single player too heavily.
This. Mostly the part about KD

That's why this warriors team is so deadly and so good. If you game plan to take out OF then steph and klay will kill you and vice versa. They play so unselfishly and they don't force 1 players stats or impact in the game. Cut off 1 head and you still have 3 more waiting.

But also true of lebron. He had so much play making burden that if they stopped him the cavs could basically be stopped. Sure they also had kyrie but kyrie is much more a scorer than playmaker. (Hes looked better at it this year but i kind of attribute more to stephens system than kyrie)

nastynice
11-14-2017, 07:48 PM
the entire defense is focused on LeBron. Always has been. Dude, KD had more freedom than he ever has, than any superstar ever has. Teams aren't game planning for Durant in GS. You can't. They have plenty of other HOF'ers that will destroy you if you concentrate on any single player too heavily.

Sure, I was just saying lebron wasnít getting doubled any more than Durant in the finals.

If lebron were more a system player instead of iso dominant drive and kick then maybe he could enjoy the same luxury. But his teams donít have movement like us