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View Full Version : Choose the Next Excuse to Deny Marc Gasol the Elite/Top Center Label



Hellcrooner
10-26-2017, 10:33 PM
First it was " its just Paus dumb bro just drafted on his first name"
Proceeds to make all rookie team

Then it was " he is fat" he goes and loses a ton of weight in one summer

Then it was, " he is too slow to play proper defense/ he is soft like every euro" he wins DPOY

Then it was " he only scores like 12 ppg" raises his PPG the last few seasons until almost 20 ppg last year now its around 25 ppg

Then it was " he does not have impact in the win colum/he is not a leader" First half of last year with every relevant player injured he goes and keeps the team on a winning record playing basically with 4 Nbdl players at all times, now this year him and conley keep a poor team wining games they have no busineees winning, just when people was telling them to blow up the team

Then " he can not strech the floor/ is not a good 3p shooter", starts raining 3 like crazy jsut like his brother does at the same time.


Then all of the last year it was " he is a bad rebounder" " he only takes like 6 per game" and no matter how much did you explain he WORKS for his teamates to take the rebound, that team rebounds better with him on thye court , that eh played with Randolph who takes a lot of rebounds you ketp hearin gthe same moronic excuse " he is a bad rebounder"

Go figure what is he doing now? Taking more tan 10 rpg with Randolph gone.

So?

Next Excuse?

IndyRealist
10-26-2017, 10:34 PM
Maybe I'm not a Grizzlies/Spainards fan, so I'm not paying attention as much. But who says this? I never see anyone say a bad word about Marc Gasol.

Hellcrooner
10-26-2017, 10:38 PM
Maybe I'm not a Grizzlies/Spainards fan, so I'm not paying attention as much. But who says this? I never see anyone say a bad word about Marc Gasol.


You have not seen people putting him out of the top 5 centers list? out of the top 10 even?

out of the top 20 plauyers in the league?

i have

tredigs
10-26-2017, 10:45 PM
A rational person would create a thread with a poll illustrating Marc's newfound elite 3pt shooting (building off of last season), and asking whether or not in his 10th season he has brought his game to a new level that has him as the top Center in the NBA. We'd talk about the fact that yes, he's been close/there for years, and certainly has the intangibles (is not immature like a Cousins), but that obviously his current level of play is not close to sustainable. Ultimately, I think he'd rate in the top 3.

But **** that. Welcome back 'Crooner.

Aust
10-26-2017, 10:48 PM
Atm he is averaging 25/10.8/3/1.5 on 49/44/86 shooting. Is there a C playing better than that right now?

Not to mention his D..

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 11:07 PM
Atm he is averaging 25/10.8/3/1.5 on 49/44/86 shooting. Is there a C playing better than that right now?

Not to mention his D..

How big is it?!

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 11:08 PM
He's been elite to start the year. He's the best center at this moment off the top of my head.

flea
10-26-2017, 11:21 PM
He's the best center in the league and has been for a few years now. PSD just keeps hyping Cousins or Whiteside or Drummond or whatever else mediocre basketball player. Gasol has weaknesses but all told he's one of the very best 2-way players at any position in the league, easy top 10 player.

cmellofan15
10-26-2017, 11:24 PM
He's been elite to start the year. He's the best center at this moment off the top of my head.

In b4 Sixers fans bring up mr glass

Leftcoast_yg
10-26-2017, 11:26 PM
In b4 Sixers fans bring up mr glass

Aka Mr Eclipse

tredigs
10-26-2017, 11:30 PM
He's the best center in the league and has been for a few years now. PSD just keeps hyping Cousins or Whiteside or Drummond or whatever else mediocre basketball player. Gasol has weaknesses but all told he's one of the very best 2-way players at any position in the league, easy top 10 player.

"Easy" top-10 player, not seeing it (don't be too clouded by 4 games... he's not as good as he's been playing, that much we know). Who are your top 10 (I assume he is 7th or 8th for you)?

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 11:30 PM
No way is Gasol top 10 imo. I guess he's a little closer than I thought though, if he stays at the top of the C list as the season goes on that is.

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 11:31 PM
TBH I want the Cavs to trade the BKN pick for him but they're good as always so it won't happen.

tredigs
10-26-2017, 11:41 PM
TBH I want the Cavs to trade the BKN pick for him but they're good as always so it won't happen.

Lol c'mon man, enough. I saw you mention this in a previous thread also. Even if the Grizz finally gave up and tried a rebuild (they never would... especially after the Conley deal), wtf would they trade a top center and a man whose number will hang in their rafters for a top 6 (no guarantee of higher) draft pick? I **** you not I don't think they would trade him for the Brooklyn pick and Lebron (both knowing 'Bron would leave at the end of the year and the 3 years they still have of Marc). Chance of getting him for the pick alone (and filler) were always less than zero.

flea
10-26-2017, 11:42 PM
"Easy" top-10 player, not seeing it (don't be too clouded by 4 games... he's not as good as he's been playing, that much we know). Who are your top 10 (I assume he is 7th or 8th for you)?

Don't even think it's debatable, and if you're someone that tells me Cousins or Davis is better then we won't agree. I'm also not clouded by anything, I didn't even know his numbers this year. I've been saying this for multiple years - ever since he dragged the Griz to the WCF.

My top 10 are, in no order:

Gasol
Green
Curry
Harden
Leonard
Durant
Lebron
Westbrook
Paul
Butler

But I think Giannis will replace Butler shortly, this is based on last season.

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 11:48 PM
Lol c'mon man, enough. I saw you mention this in a previous thread also. Even if the Grizz finally gave up and tried a rebuild (they never would... especially after the Conley deal), wtf would they trade a top center and a man whose number will hang in their rafters for a top 6 (no guarantee of higher) draft pick? I **** you not I don't think they would trade him for the Brooklyn pick and Lebron (both knowing 'Bron would leave at the end of the year and the 3 years they still have of Marc). Chance of getting him for the pick alone (and filler) were always less than zero.

Yea I know lol, no chance it happens. It's a shame because he would be a perfect fit. I guess I'll turn all my attention to Cousins and Whiteside. I actually think Whiteside would fit better than Cousins. Block shots, catch lobs, and get putbacks.

As you can tell, I don't give a damn about the future lol. I'm all about trading that pick to maximize the team now.

tredigs
10-26-2017, 11:57 PM
Don't even think it's debatable, and if you're someone that tells me Cousins or Davis is better then we won't agree. I'm also not clouded by anything, I didn't even know his numbers this year. I've been saying this for multiple years - ever since he dragged the Griz to the WCF.

My top 10 are, in no order:

Gasol
Green
Curry
Harden
Leonard
Durant
Lebron
Westbrook
Paul
Butler

But I think Giannis will replace Butler shortly, this is based on last season.

I mean I gotta say it's a solid list (and Giannis has definitely already replaced JB), but JB does have a case over Gasol, as does AD, maybe Towns (though I'll take Marc), John Wall, Griffin (has a higher peak and is healthy and playing like an MVP candidate again), Paul George, guys like that. They all have a solid case with or above Marc, who honestly has not been as good as Conley the past couple years. "Easy" top 10 is just not the case for Marc in my opinion. That's only the top 7 guys (edit: and Giannis now.. but CP3 might fall out of that group this year if he shows some age).

But hey, if he keeps up being a 10+ rebound guy and 50% from three, it's an elite-8.

flea
10-26-2017, 11:58 PM
I seriously doubt he stays a 10 boards a game guy, that's his major weakness (like other best center ATM, IMO, Horford).

But yeah Butler I could shuffle anywhere. I could put Irving, Lillard, Thompson, maybe George but I've never liked him. If Griffin were a healthy player, if LMA keeps up his current player/his Blazers play, if Davis were healthy and better, etc. The only spot I'm not married to is Butler because I've never really believed in him, I just think he's the healthiest 2-way player of that lot.

Blitzbolt
10-27-2017, 08:22 AM
I seriously doubt he stays a 10 boards a game guy, that's his major weakness (like other best center ATM, IMO, Horford).
See comments like this means that you have never seen the grizzlies play.
All his career marc played with one of the if not the best rebounding power forward in the NBA Zach Randolph.

ZBO was slow so Marc usually had to guard the smaller player (the 3pt shooter)while ZBO took on the Center.

I have no doubt in my mind that he will end up with 12 plus rebounds a game this year. His rebounding has never been an issue.

TheDish87
10-27-2017, 08:29 AM
Gasol has been the best C in the league for at least the last 3 years if not 5. he makes the biggest impact on both ends and now he has 3pt range? sheeeet.

Vinylman
10-27-2017, 08:30 AM
lol no on ever said Embiid is the best C in the game.....yet. but he will be sooner rather than later.

is that on an extrapolated per 82 basis?

ewing
10-27-2017, 08:31 AM
Both Gasols have always been criminally underrated on this board.

TheDish87
10-27-2017, 08:32 AM
In b4 Sixers fans bring up mr glass

lol no on ever said Embiid is the best C in the game.....yet. but he will be sooner rather than later.

valade16
10-27-2017, 11:30 AM
Last season he was 24th in BPM on Bball-Ref. He was 36th in NBA RPM. He was behind guys like Jokic and Gobert in both categories.

What about him are the stats missing? Memphis won 43 games last season.

I think he's always been one of the top 3 C's in the league, you could argue he's the best because he's consistently been among the top guys even if for a year a guy might play better every now and then.

But he seems like he's a top 10-20 guy, not a top 10 guy.

Firefistus
10-27-2017, 11:47 AM
I agree, I always like Mark Gasol, and fun fact that people don't seem to remember about him, he was actually not drafted the first time he submitted for the NBA draft. He was taken the second year he submitted by the Lakers in round 2. I think mainly because he was under contract with Spain and would have had to been bought out. But I thought teams were crazy not to pick him up.

My favorite thing about Gasol is his sportsmanship, which almost seems completely dead now-a-days in the NBA. He was playing in a game a few years back, in a season game, when he went for a block and the guy he was blocking fell on the floor and slid under him. He got the rebound and almost landed on the player. But instead of going for a fast break point (which he could have done easily), he called a time-out to make sure the player was ok. (because he hit the deck pretty hard).

That play always stuck out to me as a guy with a top notch attitude, someone who is always going to make sure people are safe over scoring a few points. Very Classy, and says a lot about his attitude.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2017, 11:48 AM
Both Gasols have always been criminally underrated on this board.

and in general

Heediot
10-27-2017, 11:56 AM
I accidentally wrote this reply in the Bledsoe thread, so MODS can do whatever they want.

Top 15 easily to me. The only concern is if he is going to decline soon? He's such a high IQ guy though that I wouldn't be surprised if he aged well defensively like Duncan and KG.

He impacts the game more then AD/Towns/Cousins/Whitesiteside IMO. Those guys have fancier stats but Gasol is like a glue guy, makes good decisions, plays good/great d, and can help teams win more with his mind. In a league catered to ball handlers, the things he brings to the table are more valuable vs. Bigs who are volume scorers predominately on offense. He is a capable scorer himself to boot.

BG with his ability to handle the rock and facilitate an offense is making an impact. His vision and feel on offense is under-rated. With Paul Gone, he is doing what Kyrie should be doing in BOston and showcasing his overall game. Blake is more of a natural playmaker vs. Kyrie though. I predicted BG if healthy would return to being a top 10 guy with Paul out of the way.

Heediot
10-27-2017, 12:14 PM
Last season he was 24th in BPM on Bball-Ref. He was 36th in NBA RPM. He was behind guys like Jokic and Gobert in both categories.

What about him are the stats missing? Memphis won 43 games last season.

I think he's always been one of the top 3 C's in the league, you could argue he's the best because he's consistently been among the top guys even if for a year a guy might play better every now and then.

But he seems like he's a top 10-20 guy, not a top 10 guy.

Gasol is never a crazy advanced stats player. I think he's more important vs. Conley, even with Conley advantage in style of play. Grizz were 3-5 without Marc and 8-5 without conley. Not the biggest sample though.

Chronz
10-27-2017, 12:38 PM
I seriously doubt he stays a 10 boards a game guy, that's his major weakness (like other best center ATM, IMO, Horford).

But yeah Butler I could shuffle anywhere. I could put Irving, Lillard, Thompson, maybe George but I've never liked him. If Griffin were a healthy player, if LMA keeps up his current player/his Blazers play, if Davis were healthy and better, etc. The only spot I'm not married to is Butler because I've never really believed in him, I just think he's the healthiest 2-way player of that lot.

You can't imagine how many times I've told posters that a guy is rebounding less because he's become a greater defender

Chronz
10-27-2017, 12:40 PM
Gasol is never a crazy advanced stats player. I think he's more important vs. Conley, even with Conley advantage in style of play. Grizz were 3-5 without Marc and 8-5 without conley. Not the biggest sample though.

Depends on how you define advanced. Look at how the grizz sucked *** and vaulted into the playoffs upon his return. I remember arguing with Lakers/Rockets fans on Dwight not being in his league

Chronz
10-27-2017, 12:43 PM
I agree, I always like Mark Gasol, and fun fact that people don't seem to remember about him, he was actually not drafted the first time he submitted for the NBA draft. He was taken the second year he submitted by the Lakers in round 2. I think mainly because he was under contract with Spain and would have had to been bought out. But I thought teams were crazy not to pick him up.

My favorite thing about Gasol is his sportsmanship, which almost seems completely dead now-a-days in the NBA. He was playing in a game a few years back, in a season game, when he went for a block and the guy he was blocking fell on the floor and slid under him. He got the rebound and almost landed on the player. But instead of going for a fast break point (which he could have done easily), he called a time-out to make sure the player was ok. (because he hit the deck pretty hard).

That play always stuck out to me as a guy with a top notch attitude, someone who is always going to make sure people are safe over scoring a few points. Very Classy, and says a lot about his attitude.

I'm sorry but I make the outlet pass and let the play unfold the other way while I check on the would be victim

tredigs
10-27-2017, 12:52 PM
You can't imagine how many times I've told posters that a guy is rebounding less because he's become a greater defender

And because he's a very good team rebounder (boxing his guy out while another guy on his team grabs the board). For bigs I'm much more concerned how a team rebounds when he's on the floor rather than how many personal rebounds he gets. DMC for example consistently out-rebounds Marc, but team wise the Grizz have a higher uptick in rebounding when he is on the floor than vice versa in Cousins' case (can find the stats later when I'm not on my phone if people want to check them out).

Still, if Gasol can add more personal rebounds without detriment to everything else he brings, that's an added bonus to his game.

Heediot
10-27-2017, 01:16 PM
Depends on how you define advanced. Look at how the grizz sucked *** and vaulted into the playoffs upon his return. I remember arguing with Lakers/Rockets fans on Dwight not being in his league

I'm not much of an advanced stats guy, so maybe my comment was misinformed. I just remember guys like KLOve and AD getting love from advanced stats but their teams underachieve.

ewing
10-27-2017, 01:38 PM
And because he's a very good team rebounder (boxing his guy out while another guy on his team grabs the board). For bigs I'm much more concerned how a team rebounds when he's on the floor rather than how many personal rebounds he gets. DMC for example consistently out-rebounds Marc, but team wise the Grizz have a higher uptick in rebounding when he is on the floor than vice versa in Cousins' case (can find the stats later when I'm not on my phone if people want to check them out).

Still, if Gasol can add more personal rebounds without detriment to everything else he brings, that's an added bonus to his game.


this is a very good point and something that most fans don't think about at all.

valade16
10-27-2017, 01:50 PM
You can't imagine how many times I've told posters that a guy is rebounding less because he's become a greater defender


And because he's a very good team rebounder (boxing his guy out while another guy on his team grabs the board).

So... is he the best defender of all-time and/or the best box-er out-er of other players ever?

Because there have been plenty of Centers who managed to play better defense than him and outrebound him at the same time. Heck, peak Dwight outrebounded him and was better on defense. So what exactly is this showing if he is the only example of a C who has put up low rebounding totals in a change off for their defensive prowess?

mrblisterdundee
10-27-2017, 02:07 PM
This seems like more of a Memphis thing. Gasol and Conley are both elite two-way players, but any stars in Memphis are bound to be underrated.


Atm he is averaging 25/10.8/3/1.5 on 49/44/86 shooting. Is there a C playing better than that right now?
Not to mention his D..

In today's position-less basketball, I'd argue that Giannis is a better center than Gasol, while being a better forward and guard than most.

WaDe03
10-27-2017, 02:27 PM
Cousins did have a huge game last night though.

lol, please
10-27-2017, 02:28 PM
A rational person would create a thread with a poll illustrating Marc's newfound elite 3pt shooting (building off of last season), and asking whether or not in his 10th season he has brought his game to a new level that has him as the top Center in the NBA. We'd talk about the fact that yes, he's been close/there for years, and certainly has the intangibles (is not immature like a Cousins), but that obviously his current level of play is not close to sustainable. Ultimately, I think he'd rate in the top 3.

But **** that. Welcome back 'Crooner.

lmao.


I do agree with OP that Gasol seems to have been underrated for most of his career though. Hard to believe frankly in what is one of the weakest eras of big men ever. I mean, Howard was considered the top C in the league not long ago. Laughable in itself.

Sucks too because I already consider AD a better big. I think if Gasol was on a team like the Lakers, Warriors, Rockets, Knicks, he gets more love.

lol, please
10-27-2017, 02:31 PM
this is a very good point and something that most fans don't think about at all.

Well said.


Great point tredigs.

Too often fans focus on the individual accomplishments not thinking about the team dynamics involved.

Same happens with Curry all the time.

AllBall
10-27-2017, 02:38 PM
Marc Gasol is a championship caliber Center, and I don't think I can say that about any other center in the leauge right now.

thegerman
10-27-2017, 02:41 PM
can be a top 5 mvp last year for sure, think he was a couple of years ago already

tredigs
10-27-2017, 02:43 PM
So... is he the best defender of all-time and/or the best box-er out-er of other players ever?

Because there have been plenty of Centers who managed to play better defense than him and outrebound him at the same time. Heck, peak Dwight outrebounded him and was better on defense. So what exactly is this showing if he is the only example of a C who has put up low rebounding totals in a change off for their defensive prowess?
Can you be better than Demarcus Cousins without being the best of All Time or is he the bar? : /

europagnpilgrim
10-27-2017, 03:04 PM
First it was " its just Paus dumb bro just drafted on his first name"
Proceeds to make all rookie team

Then it was " he is fat" he goes and loses a ton of weight in one summer

Then it was, " he is too slow to play proper defense/ he is soft like every euro" he wins DPOY

Then it was " he only scores like 12 ppg" raises his PPG the last few seasons until almost 20 ppg last year now its around 25 ppg

Then it was " he does not have impact in the win colum/he is not a leader" First half of last year with every relevant player injured he goes and keeps the team on a winning record playing basically with 4 Nbdl players at all times, now this year him and conley keep a poor team wining games they have no busineees winning, just when people was telling them to blow up the team

Then " he can not strech the floor/ is not a good 3p shooter", starts raining 3 like crazy jsut like his brother does at the same time.


Then all of the last year it was " he is a bad rebounder" " he only takes like 6 per game" and no matter how much did you explain he WORKS for his teamates to take the rebound, that team rebounds better with him on thye court , that eh played with Randolph who takes a lot of rebounds you ketp hearin gthe same moronic excuse " he is a bad rebounder"

Go figure what is he doing now? Taking more tan 10 rpg with Randolph gone.

So?

Next Excuse?

First off if it has taken him this long to be considered what you say elite then I must have missed that bus, second I don't get how a guy can win DPOY and not make 1st team all defense, maybe I am wrong but I think Marc did just that

Center these days don't even exist so I do appreciate him being a close to traditional big as they come and even he gets 3pt happy at times but its mostly recent so I cant hold it against him since everybody shoots 50 threes a game it seems

main reason he is considered by you to be elite is because its not even considered a important position as of right now so those dinosaurs(Centers)that we have now are easy to spot out and be labeled elite or quasi superstarish when in essence they are just good players, put Gasol back in that 90's era and he would be a better version of Koncak/Divac or something of that nature and would be bbq chicken for the real elite bigs

when you say elite big men I think of Davis/Cousins/Towns/Embiid and that's just based off eye test, which is pretty accurate

after those big men then I think of the Gasol and even Howard who once was actually truly elite(especially defense and rebounding), not so much offensively but had the athletic ability at that time to make up for his lack skill set, Gasol is like the exact opposite

europagnpilgrim
10-27-2017, 03:15 PM
This seems like more of a Memphis thing. Gasol and Conley are both elite two-way players, but any stars in Memphis are bound to be underrated.



In today's position-less basketball, I'd argue that Giannis is a better center than Gasol, while being a better forward and guard than most.


thing is these guys didn't blow through the roof during first 4-5 yrs so they are really like late bloomers who are not elite two way players, Conley is a good defender as well offensively, he can have his moments but being elite means pretty much you own every moment regardless the outcome, Gasol is a decent defender and good offensive player but nothing elite

Memphis had the other Gasol ROY so I don't think its a Memphis thing but a dynamic player thing, and Pau was the more dynamic/better/impactful player in his Memphis/Lakers days,easily

if Conley/Gasol were elite and capable of getting 40pts(each) in same game then they would send shivers through the league especially on how they can muddy up the game and have a 3rd option like Green or whoever, that is a perfect recipe for a playoff series

DanG
10-27-2017, 03:29 PM
I know this has nothing to do with how good of a player he is, but he's by far the most boring player in the league lmao. Ugly *** fadeaway jumpers and he's slow as well. Know this sounds silly, but man I've had to watch the Grizzlies play 3 times this year and I'm glad my fantasy players don't have games with the Grizzlies any time soon.

That being said, he's really good.

thegerman
10-27-2017, 03:40 PM
this guy is slow, but he is a stretch five who can play defense..
I mean who can do this in this league?

lol, please
10-27-2017, 03:42 PM
Can you be better than Demarcus Cousins without being the best of All Time or is he the bar? : /

lmao

lol, please
10-27-2017, 03:44 PM
Marc Gasol is a championship caliber Center, and I don't think I can say that about any other center in the leauge right now.

Bogut, AD, Zaza, Capela

valade16
10-27-2017, 04:24 PM
Can you be better than Demarcus Cousins without being the best of All Time or is he the bar? : /

Certainly not, but name another center whose rebounding numbers were as bad because of defense and/or boxing out for others?

Plenty of players have their rebounds go down as they focus more on defense or other areas. But they generally go from great to good or good to average.

Gasol's were not good to begin with and then went further down from there. My point is, if Gasol's sub-par rebounding can be explained by him focusing on defense or boxing out for others, how come he is seemingly the only Center in history that has had this effect to such a pronounced degree?

His defense would have to be legendarily good if the phenomenon is this pronounced compared to everyone else.

tredigs
10-27-2017, 04:50 PM
Certainly not, but name another center whose rebounding numbers were as bad because of defense and/or boxing out for others?

Plenty of players have their rebounds go down as they focus more on defense or other areas. But they generally go from great to good or good to average.

Gasol's were not good to begin with and then went further down from there. My point is, if Gasol's sub-par rebounding can be explained by him focusing on defense or boxing out for others, how come he is seemingly the only Center in history that has had this effect to such a pronounced degree?

His defense would have to be legendarily good if the phenomenon is this pronounced compared to everyone else.
#1) I'm not saying he's an amazing rebounder, only that his team has consistently rebounded at a higher rate when he is on the floor rather than off due to staying up on his man and his boxing out prowess, which is indicative of a smart team rebounder. And if you just watch the Grizz (youtube older games) and look for this, it's plain as day that he does this consistently (look for close-out rates and team rebounding% on/off for the stats here).

#2) You don't seem to be accounting for pace (slowest paced team of this decade) or his teammates. He played much of his career with Randolph who was a top rebounder (and often left to make sure of that while Marc boxed out).

#3) He's a mid-range specialist. He has a higher mid-range shooting frequency then any big in the league (and now extends that to 3pt range), and as a result is almost never the one there for offensive putbacks. You can argue the merits of whether that is ideal or not, but it's a fact and he loses out on boards accordingly.

All in all, even with the elite D and propensity to box out for his teammates (more so when ZBo was there), he still has an above average defensive rebound% for bigs throughout his career (ranks in the 56th percentile).

Ipso-facto tomato-tomahto, it's a false premise that he's a bad rebounder, despite the plain box-score numbers indicating otherwise. Context is king.

tredigs
10-27-2017, 04:54 PM
Another underrated part of Marc's game is that he is constantly drawing fouls on the other team (more so non-shooting fouls), while almost never committing them himself. This despite always ranking above average in steals and blocks. Basically, he's smarter than everyone.

valade16
10-27-2017, 05:56 PM
#1) I'm not saying he's an amazing rebounder, only that his team has consistently rebounded at a higher rate when he is on the floor rather than off due to staying up on his man and his boxing out prowess, which is indicative of a smart team rebounder. And if you just watch the Grizz (youtube older games) and look for this, it's plain as day that he does this consistently (look for close-out rates and team rebounding% on/off for the stats here).

#2) You don't seem to be accounting for pace (slowest paced team of this decade) or his teammates. He played much of his career with Randolph who was a top rebounder (and often left to make sure of that while Marc boxed out).

#3) He's a mid-range specialist. He has a higher mid-range shooting frequency then any big in the league (and now extends that to 3pt range), and as a result is almost never the one there for offensive putbacks. You can argue the merits of whether that is ideal or not, but it's a fact and he loses out on boards accordingly.

All in all, even with the elite D and propensity to box out for his teammates (more so when ZBo was there), he still has an above average defensive rebound% for bigs throughout his career (ranks in the 56th percentile).

Ipso-facto tomato-tomahto, it's a false premise that he's a bad rebounder, despite the plain box-score numbers indicating otherwise. Context is king.

#1). You haven't given any context for this ability of his to increase the rebounding of the team when he's on the court other than to say he does it better than DeMarcus Cousins. How many other top C's also have this effect? I'm betting the majority.

#2). Many other Centers played with good rebounders their careers and their rebounding didn't suffer to the degree as Gasol (which was my point).

#3). Indeed, but how many Center's nowadays aren't also shooting from deep more? Embiid, Davis, Towns, etc. all shoot from 3 and manage to put up better rebounding numbers.

#4). He's in the 56th percentile for all bigs in NBA history or all starters in NBA history? If it's all bigs then the 56% is not very good for a starter and certainly not good for a player of his caliber.


Ipso facto, Tomato-Tuhmato, if you're trying to sell me on the fact that context shows he isn't a bad rebounder by concluding that he's barely better than the average big man throughout NBA history... you've done a very poor job.

If you want me to say he's an average rebounder all-time, fine. That isn't very good for a player of his caliber.

valade16
10-27-2017, 05:59 PM
I looked up his DRB% all-time, it's 119th and behind essentially every Center of note for which they have records.

flea
10-27-2017, 07:00 PM
When I said rebounding was his weakness I didn't mean he was terrible at it. He's fine, about the same as Horford who gets dogged too much for that relative weakness in his game. He's a lot like his brother on the glass and in a lot of ways as a player. "Gasoft" wasn't true but he did get that nickname for a reason.

I also agree that sometimes good defenders can have lower board totals as a result of not being in the play, and I also agree that boxing out your man is the most important thing anyone can do (you see it much less in today's NBA especially with wings and guards). But I do think the elite defenders are both elite rebounders and defenders. Gasol is an elite defender and a solid rebounder - period. Not bad for a center, but not great. He won't win a game on the boards for you like some guys can.

Gasol also isn't a go-to scorer. He's not even as good as his brother with his back to the basket IMO, but he's solid. A big part of his game, like all great players, is that he doesn't really have weaknesses. There are only things he's not elite at.

tredigs
10-27-2017, 07:07 PM
#1). You haven't given any context for this ability of his to increase the rebounding of the team when he's on the court other than to say he does it better than DeMarcus Cousins. How many other top C's also have this effect? I'm betting the majority.

#2). Many other Centers played with good rebounders their careers and their rebounding didn't suffer to the degree as Gasol (which was my point).

#3). Indeed, but how many Center's nowadays aren't also shooting from deep more? Embiid, Davis, Towns, etc. all shoot from 3 and manage to put up better rebounding numbers.

#4). He's in the 56th percentile for all bigs in NBA history or all starters in NBA history? If it's all bigs then the 56% is not very good for a starter and certainly not good for a player of his caliber.


Ipso facto, Tomato-Tuhmato, if you're trying to sell me on the fact that context shows he isn't a bad rebounder by concluding that he's barely better than the average big man throughout NBA history... you've done a very poor job.

If you want me to say he's an average rebounder all-time, fine. That isn't very good for a player of his caliber.

Already very over discussing this topic to be honest (can only handle the nuances of Marc Gasol's rebounding prowess for so long), but concerning your examples (Towns/Davis... Embiid is irrelevant as he has 40 career games), the Wolves don't rebound better with KAT on the floor, neither do the Pelicans (2 years better, 2 years worse). Ditto Andre Drummond (top individual rebounder of the past 5 years).

The 56% was him in relation to his position during each season of his career. We're discussing his supposedly terrible rebounding. I'm showing that even there, we have no reason to believe he is a sub-par rebounder (even if his rebounding prowess does not result in him himself gathering the board). Deandre Jordan is an example of a truly elite rebounder, though he is far less engaged offensively and almost exclusively around the rim on that end whereas a guy like Marc is having the offense ran through him in the high post, always setting high picks, and/or taking set jumpers. Concerning these #'s in a historical reference, we don't have them, so you just have to watch the games and come to your own conclusion.

tp13baby
10-27-2017, 07:12 PM
Am I reading a thread how boxing out lowers your rebound total as a center? Literally the only thing Jokic does above average is box out and his defensive rebounds show for it. Also plays with Faried a great rebounder.

Marc Gasol is extremely good but I donít think he is elite.

tredigs
10-27-2017, 07:15 PM
Am I reading a thread how boxing out lowers your rebound total as a center? Literally the only thing Jokic does above average is box out and his defensive rebounds show for it. Also plays with Faried a great rebounder.

Marc Gasol is extremely good but I donít think he is elite.

We're not talking about players who just sit under the basket and then box out. You actually have to defend. And Jokic makes Karl Anthony Towns look like Bill Russell defensively.

Aust
10-27-2017, 07:57 PM
Both Gasols have always been criminally underrated on this board.

:nod:

valade16
10-27-2017, 07:58 PM
When I said rebounding was his weakness I didn't mean he was terrible at it. He's fine, about the same as Horford who gets dogged too much for that relative weakness in his game. He's a lot like his brother on the glass and in a lot of ways as a player. "Gasoft" wasn't true but he did get that nickname for a reason.

I also agree that sometimes good defenders can have lower board totals as a result of not being in the play, and I also agree that boxing out your man is the most important thing anyone can do (you see it much less in today's NBA especially with wings and guards). But I do think the elite defenders are both elite rebounders and defenders. Gasol is an elite defender and a solid rebounder - period. Not bad for a center, but not great. He won't win a game on the boards for you like some guys can.

Gasol also isn't a go-to scorer. He's not even as good as his brother with his back to the basket IMO, but he's solid. A big part of his game, like all great players, is that he doesn't really have weaknesses. There are only things he's not elite at.

Marc has a very good face up game for a Center. Offensively, that was a big difference from Pau who was better back to the basket.

valade16
10-27-2017, 08:03 PM
Already very over discussing this topic to be honest (can only handle the nuances of Marc Gasol's rebounding prowess for so long), but concerning your examples (Towns/Davis... Embiid is irrelevant as he has 40 career games), the Wolves don't rebound better with KAT on the floor, neither do the Pelicans (2 years better, 2 years worse). Ditto Andre Drummond (top individual rebounder of the past 5 years).

The 56% was him in relation to his position during each season of his career. We're discussing his supposedly terrible rebounding. I'm showing that even there, we have no reason to believe he is a sub-par rebounder (even if his rebounding prowess does not result in him himself gathering the board). Deandre Jordan is an example of a truly elite rebounder, though he is far less engaged offensively and almost exclusively around the rim on that end whereas a guy like Marc is having the offense ran through him in the high post, always setting high picks, and/or taking set jumpers. Concerning these #'s in a historical reference, we don't have them, so you just have to watch the games and come to your own conclusion.

I'd like to see the numbers on who makes their team a better rebounding team vs those that don't if you have the link.

As for your on/off with Marc, he played a lot of his minutes with Zach, who you admit was a good rebounder, that may have affected his on/off numbers to make him seem better than he was.

As for his 56% in relation to his position during each season of his career. So of all the Centers, both starting and backups that played in the league when he did, he's 56%? That is still not very good. I'd venture to say he is under 50% for starters at the position, so again, if you want to say he's an average (or very slightly above average) rebounder for an NBA C during that time, sure. But an equal statement is he is a sub-par rebounder for an NBA starting C during that time period.

As for the historical numbers, I showed you his DRB% is 119th all-time, behind most every other C of note.

I don't hate Marc Gasol, I think he's very good and definitely in the 10-20 range in the NBA and one of the best 2-3 Centers every year for the past near decade or so every year (with a case to be the best C over that period).

Heck, I even had him as my starting C in the no MVP All-Time Redraft we just did here that won the championship. But that doesn't mean I can't point out the obvious: he's been a substandard rebounder for a C for someone who is among the all-time players at the position (by all-time I mean top 25 or so). That's why in the All-Time game I started Jerry Lucas next to him, because he was a rebounding fiend to make up for the one weakness in Marc's game.

flea
10-27-2017, 08:09 PM
I think Gasol has a good argument against Draymond Green. I'm not convinced Green would have won more with the Griz cast the last 8 years than Gasol did, and I think with the Curry/Thompson backcourt (not to mention Durant) Gasol would be thought of as an easy top 5 player.

tredigs
10-27-2017, 08:17 PM
I'd like to see the numbers on who makes their team a better rebounding team vs those that don't if you have the link.

As for your on/off with Marc, he played a lot of his minutes with Zach, who you admit was a good rebounder, that may have affected his on/off numbers to make him seem better than he was.

As for his 56% in relation to his position during each season of his career. So of all the Centers, both starting and backups that played in the league when he did, he's 56%? That is still not very good. I'd venture to say he is under 50% for starters at the position, so again, if you want to say he's an average (or very slightly above average) rebounder for an NBA C during that time, sure. But an equal statement is he is a sub-par rebounder for an NBA starting C during that time period.

As for the historical numbers, I showed you his DRB% is 119th all-time, behind most every other C of note.

I don't hate Marc Gasol, I think he's very good and definitely in the 10-20 range in the NBA and one of the best 2-3 Centers every year for the past near decade or so every year (with a case to be the best C over that period).

Heck, I even had him as my starting C in the no MVP All-Time Redraft we just did here that won the championship. But that doesn't mean I can't point out the obvious: he's been a substandard rebounder for a C for someone who is among the all-time players at the position (by all-time I mean top 25 or so). That's why in the All-Time game I started Jerry Lucas next to him, because he was a rebounding fiend to make up for the one weakness in Marc's game.
I don't have a list, you have to do the work on each player individually. 119 does not seem that low to me considering that's every player in history and we've already discussed why I think his DRB% is lower for himself than the reality of his DRB worth. I do agree that Zach could potentially help their rebounding numbers (while hurting his personal numbers), but they played enough years together with enough time separated that there should be a decent rebounding chasm if in fact Marc was not doing his job (in 2012 Zbo was injured and it was a wash for them as a team on the boards despite losing their top rebounder... and they maintained their elite D with Marc on). 56% against his peers is the definition of above average, not sure why you say it's not very good. It's supposedly his weakest asset, but yet he's above average. Realize that by and large starting centers are going against other starters (conversely backups against backups), and in that many bigs cases, their #1 focus is simply to eat up as many rebounds as possible (leaving D behind in the process).

You can have the last word here. I'm officially moving on from this one as I can't look at myself in the mirror if i continue with this debate.

FlashBolt
10-27-2017, 08:40 PM
We're seeing a massive separation of who the better player is compared to who the better system player is. I think Cousins is probably, on a skill level, the best Center. Marc Gasol on the other hand is probably a better player if you want a championship team. He's a low USG% player who plays elite defense and can playmake. It's the same with Draymond. I'll build over AD any day over Draymond but I can see why some would take Draymond if they were building a championship team. Same with a bunch of players, tbh. I mean, Blake is probably a better player than Draymond but give me Dray any day if I had the other championship pieces.

AllBall
10-27-2017, 11:26 PM
Bogut, AD, Zaza, Capela

Nope, none of those. AD has the potential to get there, but he's not there yet.

ewing
10-27-2017, 11:36 PM
So... is he the best defender of all-time and/or the best box-er out-er of other players ever?

Because there have been plenty of Centers who managed to play better defense than him and outrebound him at the same time. Heck, peak Dwight outrebounded him and was better on defense. So what exactly is this showing if he is the only example of a C who has put up low rebounding totals in a change off for their defensive prowess?

D12 was an MVP level player for short time. Marc isn;t that. He is really good. I do think his pure size and smarts do help you be a good rebounding team. Dude aren't flying down the lane when he is in there. I don't know what Chronz mean about trading in rebounds for D but I do think Marc brings a lot. He has always brought more then his numbers. He doesn't kill you in the pick and roll and brings a real presence in the paint b/c of his size. he is a great safty value when things break down and you are in the half court- generally the floor will be balanced and you wont make a terrible decision once it goes though Marc. he is a unique player and while he isn't what D12 was in Orlando i think he is one of the few true difference makers on D

ewing
10-27-2017, 11:41 PM
I'd like to see the numbers on who makes their team a better rebounding team vs those that don't if you have the link.

As for your on/off with Marc, he played a lot of his minutes with Zach, who you admit was a good rebounder, that may have affected his on/off numbers to make him seem better than he was.

As for his 56% in relation to his position during each season of his career. So of all the Centers, both starting and backups that played in the league when he did, he's 56%? That is still not very good. I'd venture to say he is under 50% for starters at the position, so again, if you want to say he's an average (or very slightly above average) rebounder for an NBA C during that time, sure. But an equal statement is he is a sub-par rebounder for an NBA starting C during that time period.

As for the historical numbers, I showed you his DRB% is 119th all-time, behind most every other C of note.

I don't hate Marc Gasol, I think he's very good and definitely in the 10-20 range in the NBA and one of the best 2-3 Centers every year for the past near decade or so every year (with a case to be the best C over that period).

Heck, I even had him as my starting C in the no MVP All-Time Redraft we just did here that won the championship. But that doesn't mean I can't point out the obvious: he's been a substandard rebounder for a C for someone who is among the all-time players at the position (by all-time I mean top 25 or so). That's why in the All-Time game I started Jerry Lucas next to him, because he was a rebounding fiend to make up for the one weakness in Marc's game.

I think the rebounding thing is interesting. I feel like Robin Lopez is another guy that just that despite not being a mountain like Gasol just keeps dude from flying in and grabbing bounds. personally i think size matters. if you can have a monster that doesn't get killed in screen role or in switches it help you on boards big time.

Blitzbolt
10-28-2017, 01:01 AM
Again I watch every single Memphis Grizzlies ever .

The reason his rebounding sucks is because Marc is to friendly and a good teammate he let Zach Randolph get all the rebounds for 8 years .He already double his rebounds as soon as Zbo left.

Also You WILL NEVER NEVER!!!! See him play for his stats which at times it's a bad thing.... so the analytics b.s. is just dumb.

The bottom line is this Marc is not the most skill C and I don't think he is the best at any particular thing right now but he is the only TRUE All Around C in the NBA.

Pass
Blocks
Rebounds
Steals
Defense (vs bigs or small guys)
3pts
Mid range
Dunking
post moves (face and back to the basket)
Elite IQ on both ends ******
Leadership
Winning with scrubs by his side.
Game winning shots.
Dribbling
Unselfish (makes his teammates better)


Name me one other Center that checks all that?? I haven't seen anyone since Duncan.(Duncan didn't shot 3s but could of have if he want it to)

europagnpilgrim
10-28-2017, 10:24 PM
I think Gasol has a good argument against Draymond Green. I'm not convinced Green would have won more with the Griz cast the last 8 years than Gasol did, and I think with the Curry/Thompson backcourt (not to mention Durant) Gasol would be thought of as an easy top 5 player.

if you swap Green and Gasol and Gasol was winning it would not put him top 5 player, his brother went from 1st round exit to champs with the Lakers and people noticed and pushed him as a top 5 ''big'' man/post player, and he was the same player with Memphis but got to showcase his skill in a giant market and had deep playoff runs to showcase even more, the elder was better than the younger, and the only reason why the you take the younger version now is only because of age but Pau was getting like 18-19ppg and 8-9rpg as a rookie off top and did that or better for like a decade, Pau was already made/established so to me him winning with Lakers didn't boost him up but showcased him to the masses more and during that early Lakers 3yr stretch he was being mentioned as top 5 big but prior he was probably a top 10 big with Memphis, not overall player

you are really overhyping this Marc guy, cut it out

europagnpilgrim
10-28-2017, 10:32 PM
Again I watch every single Memphis Grizzlies ever .

The reason his rebounding sucks is because Marc is to friendly and a good teammate he let Zach Randolph get all the rebounds for 8 years .He already double his rebounds as soon as Zbo left.

Also You WILL NEVER NEVER!!!! See him play for his stats which at times it's a bad thing.... so the analytics b.s. is just dumb.

The bottom line is this Marc is not the most skill C and I don't think he is the best at any particular thing right now but he is the only TRUE All Around C in the NBA.

Pass
Blocks
Rebounds
Steals
Defense (vs bigs or small guys)
3pts
Mid range
Dunking
post moves (face and back to the basket)
Elite IQ on both ends ******
Leadership
Winning with scrubs by his side.
Game winning shots.
Dribbling
Unselfish (makes his teammates better)


Name me one other Center that checks all that?? I haven't seen anyone since Duncan.(Duncan didn't shot 3s but could of have if he want it to)

you basically repeated what I said about that position being like a Dinosaur now, you just said he is the only true Center in the nba so that means since the other 29 teams don't have a true big then by default he is the best because there is literally 0 competition since he is the only true Center in the game, this is almost as bad as saying Kobe was the best 2 guard after Jordan retired because it was basically nobody there at the position and they had to shift over two players who were drafted as PG's but moved to 2guard in the nba, Iverson+Wade

Gasol is a player who developed into a decent Center, like a new day Vlade Divac and you know damn good well Divac wasn't elite overall, damn good passer and flopper, he was elite at flopping and being known as the guy who got traded for Kobe, simitlar to how Marc is known for getting traded for his brother and stashed away as a project, Marc is like a career 15ppg and like 7-8rpg player, I mean if that is elite then Rick Smits is first ballot HOF'er, or Brad Miller for that matter

europagnpilgrim
10-28-2017, 10:40 PM
D12 was an MVP level player for short time. Marc isn;t that. He is really good. I do think his pure size and smarts do help you be a good rebounding team. Dude aren't flying down the lane when he is in there. I don't know what Chronz mean about trading in rebounds for D but I do think Marc brings a lot. He has always brought more then his numbers. He doesn't kill you in the pick and roll and brings a real presence in the paint b/c of his size. he is a great safty value when things break down and you are in the half court- generally the floor will be balanced and you wont make a terrible decision once it goes though Marc. he is a unique player and while he isn't what D12 was in Orlando i think he is one of the few true difference makers on D

if Marc Gasol is a unique player then Brad Miller and Vlade and G. Muresan(however you spell it) and Manute Bol are super unique, and you know what they all have in common, being tall as hell and decent players in their own unique way, Marc isn't a difference maker but he is good for 15ppg and 8rpg which is serviceable but in todays era it is seen as being elite for some strange reason, and those numbers get you 120million dollar deals as well, now that is unique in all the wrong ways

LA_Raiders
10-28-2017, 11:48 PM
He is a hell of a player and a Top 3 C no question.

Raps08-09 Champ
10-29-2017, 12:28 AM
Marc Gasol is a top 100 player of all time. What are you talking about.

D-Leethal
10-29-2017, 11:53 AM
Rebounds are kind of a weird stat. Over the course of a game, when a shot goes up and the team shooting sprints back on D instead of crashing the offensive glass, you will see 2-3 guys on the same team under the hoop with no opposition who can all conceivably grab the rebound. That, or 2 or 3 bigs are boxing out and all 2 or 3 are in position to get the rebound, and one guy gets it. This happens ALL THE TIME in an NBA game. Is it really that impressive that the biggest guy or the guy designed to grab it actually does when 2 other guys were right there and conceded it to the primary rebounder? I don't think it's that impressive.

Case in point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XozuqTjDJ18

How many of those rebounds right off the bat was Ilyasova right there for but Drummond was the primary rebounding guy and went and grabbed it?

Multiple guys need to box out, not everyone is tasked with chasing the rebound. This is by design. Most rebounds are simply given to one guy via a 2-3 man effort, not earned through brute hustle or skill by the guy getting the rebound.

I don't think Marc was "being a good teammate" by giving ZBo boards, I think the coaches wanted him to focus on blocking the lane and let Zbo focus on chasing the board. This is by design, not some random occurrence.

valade16
10-29-2017, 01:24 PM
I don't have a list, you have to do the work on each player individually. 119 does not seem that low to me considering that's every player in history and we've already discussed why I think his DRB% is lower for himself than the reality of his DRB worth. I do agree that Zach could potentially help their rebounding numbers (while hurting his personal numbers), but they played enough years together with enough time separated that there should be a decent rebounding chasm if in fact Marc was not doing his job (in 2012 Zbo was injured and it was a wash for them as a team on the boards despite losing their top rebounder... and they maintained their elite D with Marc on). 56% against his peers is the definition of above average, not sure why you say it's not very good. It's supposedly his weakest asset, but yet he's above average. Realize that by and large starting centers are going against other starters (conversely backups against backups), and in that many bigs cases, their #1 focus is simply to eat up as many rebounds as possible (leaving D behind in the process).

You can have the last word here. I'm officially moving on from this one as I can't look at myself in the mirror if i continue with this debate.

I got the classic "Tredigs is incapable of recognizing another possible viewpoint and can't prove his point conclusively so he will feign disinterest and bow out under the guise of being mentally superior" lol

I will point out it's not 119th of all-players in NBA history, it's 119th of all players since 1974 since they didn't have DRB% prior to then.

I think we both understand each other's points, you believe that 56th percentile during his time for someone considered among the top C's during that period is something to be boastful about, while I do not.

valade16
10-29-2017, 01:28 PM
D12 was an MVP level player for short time. Marc isn;t that. He is really good. I do think his pure size and smarts do help you be a good rebounding team. Dude aren't flying down the lane when he is in there. I don't know what Chronz mean about trading in rebounds for D but I do think Marc brings a lot. He has always brought more then his numbers. He doesn't kill you in the pick and roll and brings a real presence in the paint b/c of his size. he is a great safty value when things break down and you are in the half court- generally the floor will be balanced and you wont make a terrible decision once it goes though Marc. he is a unique player and while he isn't what D12 was in Orlando i think he is one of the few true difference makers on D


I think the rebounding thing is interesting. I feel like Robin Lopez is another guy that just that despite not being a mountain like Gasol just keeps dude from flying in and grabbing bounds. personally i think size matters. if you can have a monster that doesn't get killed in screen role or in switches it help you on boards big time.

And I've said repeatedly I think Marc is a great C overall and has a case as the best C of the last decade or so (by that I meant when Dwight fell off). But that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge he's been a sub-par rebounder for his career. Plenty of Centers were able to have his impact defensively and still rebound better. Still think he's a great player.

europagnpilgrim
10-29-2017, 02:10 PM
And I've said repeatedly I think Marc is a great C overall and has a case as the best C of the last decade or so (by that I meant when Dwight fell off). But that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge he's been a sub-par rebounder for his career. Plenty of Centers were able to have his impact defensively and still rebound better. Still think he's a great player.


Thing is who is really a bona fide throwback style Center since Howard fell off his media hype stature? so Gasol case of best Center this past decade doesn't carry much weight since he is going up against basically Cousins and a young Towns and injured(but better) version of Embiid, I mean damn he puts up 15 and 7-8rpg during that decade stretch, which is serviceable but nothing even remotely close to being elite

Gasol is a good player, nothing more nor less, if he was so called 'great' he would at least be in the discussion multiple times for league MVP over that decade span, he even won DPOY of the year and didn't make 1st team all nba defense, c'mon man where does that happen at in sports?

europagnpilgrim
10-29-2017, 02:17 PM
He is a hell of a player and a Top 3 C no question.

you say top 3 no question like he is dealing with 15-20 legit players at that position, and no he isn't top 3 no question if you count Cousins/AD/Towns/Embiid as Centers, so he would be 5th and I would also draft Porzingis over him as well regardless of his actual position since he is like 7'4'' with range and post up ability and able to protect the rim when focused/motivated

D-Leethal
10-29-2017, 02:24 PM
And I've said repeatedly I think Marc is a great C overall and has a case as the best C of the last decade or so (by that I meant when Dwight fell off). But that doesn't mean we can't acknowledge he's been a sub-par rebounder for his career. Plenty of Centers were able to have his impact defensively and still rebound better. Still think he's a great player.

I think we need to change our thinking that grabbing an individual rebound is the only way to impact a team rebound. If the team is beasting on the boards, the Center is doing a lot of things right.

tredigs
10-29-2017, 02:24 PM
I got the classic "Tredigs is incapable of recognizing another possible viewpoint and can't prove his point conclusively so he will feign disinterest and bow out under the guise of being mentally superior" lol

I will point out it's not 119th of all-players in NBA history, it's 119th of all players since 1974 since they didn't have DRB% prior to then.

I think we both understand each other's points, you believe that 56th percentile during his time for someone considered among the top C's during that period is something to be boastful about, while I do not.
Don't be a douchebag. I gave this random/nothing sidepoint way more than it deserved and backed up my points. Essentially you claim he is a bad rebounder, and I said not so fast.

Saying that I think it's something to be boastful about is literally the polar opposite of what I spoke on, which means you read arguments with a clear bias. Nevermind that you completely missed the point of the 56% DRB (which is that he was still above average despite his rebounding technique). I'll keep this in mind before entering a discussion with you in the future.

valade16
10-29-2017, 07:23 PM
Don't be a douchebag. I gave this random/nothing sidepoint way more than it deserved and backed up my points. Essentially you claim he is a bad rebounder, and I said not so fast.

Saying that I think it's something to be boastful about is literally the polar opposite of what I spoke on, which means you read arguments with a clear bias. Nevermind that you completely missed the point of the 56% DRB (which is that he was still above average despite his rebounding technique). I'll keep this in mind before entering a discussion with you in the future.

You made a snarky remark (several in fact) and I called you on it and you're telling me not to be a douchebag lol?

You are correct however that you were never saying he was some great rebounder, only that he wasn't sub-par. So I apologize for generalizing your point.

If you believe he's not a sub-par rebounder for an all-time caliber C, or a C who is considered among (if not) the best C during his time because he was slightly better than the average C in the league, you can. I disagree.

Blitzbolt
10-29-2017, 08:24 PM
So we should punish him because he is basically the last true C left ???

Punish him because of the small ball era???the fact that a 7'1 260 pound C can still play and be a top 20 player in today's day should be even more impressive.

Gasol is not elite everyone knows that but what annoys me is how ppl pick Golbert ,towns, cousins embid Jokiv jordan and don't even mention Gasol.I seen ppl not even having him in the top 10 (top ten Cs)And that should never be the case.

I remember when he won DPOY ppl keep saying that Bogut was better then him which was SUPER ridiculous...the problem is that he is in Memphis and no WATCHES him play.

flea
10-29-2017, 08:28 PM
What is with people pretending like C's don't exist anymore? Basically every team plays a traditional center 80% of the game. The only exceptions are teams that have star forwards that are rugged enough to play the 5 - like the Spurs and Warriors. Even a guy like Davis is open about how he doesn't like playing the 5. He's a PF. The new rules have affected guards and forwards way more than C's.

However, it is true that C is a weak position right now. But other than its golden age in the mid 90s it's never been a really great position, and even that was only because of 3 HOFers.

flea
10-29-2017, 08:39 PM
if you swap Green and Gasol and Gasol was winning it would not put him top 5 player, his brother went from 1st round exit to champs with the Lakers and people noticed and pushed him as a top 5 ''big'' man/post player, and he was the same player with Memphis but got to showcase his skill in a giant market and had deep playoff runs to showcase even more, the elder was better than the younger, and the only reason why the you take the younger version now is only because of age but Pau was getting like 18-19ppg and 8-9rpg as a rookie off top and did that or better for like a decade, Pau was already made/established so to me him winning with Lakers didn't boost him up but showcased him to the masses more and during that early Lakers 3yr stretch he was being mentioned as top 5 big but prior he was probably a top 10 big with Memphis, not overall player

you are really overhyping this Marc guy, cut it out

I think Marc is at least as good as Pau because of how much better of a defender he is. Pau proved his quality well before LA - here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2004.html) and here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2006.html) at the very least. Winning 49 and 50 games in a stacked West with only Shane Battier as a truly good player, maybe Mike Miller if we're stretching, and maybe ancient Eddie Jones/Mighty Mouse if we're really stretching.

Considering Gasol is not a big you can dump the ball into and also not an elite defender I think that's remarkable, and the fact that those weak teams got swept by Duncan, Dirk, and Nash means nothing to me. Just winning 50 with Shane Battier as your #2 in the West is more impressive than anything guys like Cousins and Davis have ever done - same with Marc taking the Griz to the WCF a few years ago.

So just saying "1st round exit Pau" is way underselling what he did. There's no shame in losing to one of the best players ever, one of the best scorers ever, and one of the best offenses ever when nobody would argue Pau is not as good as Nash, Dirk, or Duncan and everyone would agree his teams were worse. Same with Marc, Z-Bo and Conley might be solid players for their positions but if it wasn't for Marc's greatness they wouldn't be so consistently good. Maybe Marc's not as good as prime Dwight, hell maybe he's not as good as Lakers Pau (though I would argue he's got a good argument) - but he's still a hell of a player.

europagnpilgrim
10-29-2017, 10:23 PM
What is with people pretending like C's don't exist anymore? Basically every team plays a traditional center 80% of the game. The only exceptions are teams that have star forwards that are rugged enough to play the 5 - like the Spurs and Warriors. Even a guy like Davis is open about how he doesn't like playing the 5. He's a PF. The new rules have affected guards and forwards way more than C's.

However, it is true that C is a weak position right now. But other than its golden age in the mid 90s it's never been a really great position, and even that was only because of 3 HOFers.


They exist as I listed the ones in my other posts who I feel are better Centers, but grading Gasol against Biyombo/Vuvecic(who is basically Gasol) and Gobert and that Raptors big man aren't what I would call superstar elite players, far from it

so like I said they are Dinosaurs as far as being in abundance at that top tier level, Cousins/Embiid/Towns are the only ones I can think of off top, with others like Aldridge/Howard etc. are at the stage where they have maxed out what they are capable of doing, now that I think of it so is Gasol since he has been around for somewhere around a decade or more

in the 60's and early 70's they had C's in abundance that were at all star to superstar level

but the 2nd tier level Centers in the 90's were better than Gasol, the cream of the crop 2nd tier is what I mean

europagnpilgrim
10-29-2017, 10:31 PM
I think Marc is at least as good as Pau because of how much better of a defender he is. Pau proved his quality well before LA - here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2004.html) and here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MEM/2006.html) at the very least. Winning 49 and 50 games in a stacked West with only Shane Battier as a truly good player, maybe Mike Miller if we're stretching, and maybe ancient Eddie Jones/Mighty Mouse if we're really stretching.

Considering Gasol is not a big you can dump the ball into and also not an elite defender I think that's remarkable, and the fact that those weak teams got swept by Duncan, Dirk, and Nash means nothing to me. Just winning 50 with Shane Battier as your #2 in the West is more impressive than anything guys like Cousins and Davis have ever done - same with Marc taking the Griz to the WCF a few years ago.

So just saying "1st round exit Pau" is way underselling what he did. There's no shame in losing to one of the best players ever, one of the best scorers ever, and one of the best offenses ever when nobody would argue Pau is not as good as Nash, Dirk, or Duncan and everyone would agree his teams were worse. Same with Marc, Z-Bo and Conley might be solid players for their positions but if it wasn't for Marc's greatness they wouldn't be so consistently good. Maybe Marc's not as good as prime Dwight, hell maybe he's not as good as Lakers Pau (though I would argue he's got a good argument) - but he's still a hell of a player.

I don't think Marc is as good as his older bro, Pau in his youth played just as good as D as Marc, both aren't nothing special but they are just big 7foot bodies which is what is needed at any era, I stated that Pau was established before joining the Lakers

Marc was a project, Pau was ROY and had to carry a franchise as the franchise player, Marc panned out to be a 15 and 8 guy, those are old man Pau numbers, I was saying 1st round to Finals trips as far as him showcasing his game more to the masses by making deeper playoff runs, but he was still the same skilled big man from Memphis to Lakers and he got propped up to be a top 5 ''big'' man during that early 3yr stretch in LA but not a top 5 overall player in the league, and I think you said Marc would be top 5 player in the league if he was with the Warriors and I said not even close, but in todays game if he were on the Warriors I think he would get put in the top 5 big man in the game for his winning and 15 and 8 stat line, nothing major because most people on here and on tv probably have him in the top 3 as of right now for Center rankings

tredigs
10-29-2017, 11:29 PM
I don't think Marc is as good as his older bro, Pau in his youth played just as good as D as Marc, both aren't nothing special but they are just big 7foot bodies which is what is needed at any era, I stated that Pau was established before joining the Lakers

Marc was a project, Pau was ROY and had to carry a franchise as the franchise player, Marc panned out to be a 15 and 8 guy, those are old man Pau numbers, I was saying 1st round to Finals trips as far as him showcasing his game more to the masses by making deeper playoff runs, but he was still the same skilled big man from Memphis to Lakers and he got propped up to be a top 5 ''big'' man during that early 3yr stretch in LA but not a top 5 overall player in the league, and I think you said Marc would be top 5 player in the league if he was with the Warriors and I said not even close, but in todays game if he were on the Warriors I think he would get put in the top 5 big man in the game for his winning and 15 and 8 stat line, nothing major because most people on here and on tv probably have him in the top 3 as of right now for Center rankings

It's really funny seeing a guy who fanceies himself an international/old-school bball fan concentrate so hardcore on ppg/rpg while laughing at efficiency stats, etc. And just seeing your posts in general, my god are you lost. Have you ever attempted to bet on the NBA? Would love to see your results (I think you're stupid).

ewing
10-30-2017, 12:23 AM
It's really funny seeing a guy who fanceies himself an international/old-school bball fan concentrate so hardcore on ppg/rpg while laughing at efficiency stats, etc. And just seeing your posts in general, my god are you lost. Have you ever attempted to bet on the NBA? Would love to see your results (I think you're stupid).

he right Pau was better. I don't think Pau was the same level defender at all. Marc is a very good player and if he has found a little more consistency has a go to scorer with the revamped Griz he might be on that next level.

europagnpilgrim
10-30-2017, 08:50 PM
It's really funny seeing a guy who fanceies himself an international/old-school bball fan concentrate so hardcore on ppg/rpg while laughing at efficiency stats, etc. And just seeing your posts in general, my god are you lost. Have you ever attempted to bet on the NBA? Would love to see your results (I think you're stupid).

its so funny that the nba since it began kept track of the ppg/rpg back in the 60's and prior to that so i guess they are super hardcore for that, its so funny that i laugh at efficiency when it comes down to you and other stupid new school nerds who think M Gasol is better than a clearly better player because of efficiency, its like you think Stockton is better than Iverson because Stockton was more efficient and then realize Iverson had to carry way heavier 2way load and was depended on to shoot 23x a game and not 8-10x like a Stockton, the more volume the more difficult a higher percentage becomes which could hurt your efficiency, if you cant wrap you smart *** brain around that then my Lord Ahmen you are lost to the point of no return

i laugh at efficiency stats because of just being able to watch a player for 3yrs and figure out what they can do, Gasol is in like his 10th season and you(or maybe not) and other stupid people are screaming he is elite which is far from the truth, project player stashed away who became serviceable, like a big man Rubio version, i take that back you are not stupid, you are just a TS%/VRPM/ABCDEFGHWXYZ hoarder, watch the damn game and call it how you see it play out, the eyes are a very powerful weapon, use them you internet tough guy wanksta

the funniest part about all of this is since I can recall watching regular/playoff season and all star games that at the end of the game they always show the stat line of the player of the game/mvp points/rebounds/assists/blocks/steals, and all these nerdy *** side shows always try to change it to a PER, which is what you get from the ppg/rpg etc., the nba according to you is stuck on super stupid with the stat line, call Silver up and beef with him

europagnpilgrim
10-30-2017, 09:04 PM
he right Pau was better. I don't think Pau was the same level defender at all. Marc is a very good player and if he has found a little more consistency has a go to scorer with the revamped Griz he might be on that next level.

of course Pau was better, he is just old now so Marc has him just on that only

that's another thing i hate about this new age school of nerds, they use these fake techniques to boost up certain players because they like them more personally or something, Pau was always better from rookie year to year 10 if we compare year by year, and i am talking game film, stats don't even need to be involved, when Pau got over to Lakers Phil would run the offense through him just as much as he did Kobe, it was just Kobe being a Guard had the choice to control the ball/shots more so than the big man, Marc was traded for and they were just hoping and praying he became a 15 and 7-8rpg guy, kudos to Memphis for striking gold on that trade 10yrs later, we are comparing a strong possible HOF'er to a serviceable guy all because of TS%/PER/efficiency, wow

LaVar Ball
10-30-2017, 10:14 PM
You have not seen people putting him out of the top 5 centers list? out of the top 10 even?

out of the top 20 plauyers in the league?

i have

Who cares.

When is he going to lead the Grizzlies to the championship?

Never.

tredigs
10-30-2017, 10:21 PM
he right Pau was better. I don't think Pau was the same level defender at all. Marc is a very good player and if he has found a little more consistency has a go to scorer with the revamped Griz he might be on that next level.

Sorry, can't take anybody seriously who says thinks Vuv is a top center and "basically Marc Gasol". His aggro dimwitted response was worth it though.

lol, please
10-31-2017, 01:13 AM
What is with people pretending like C's don't exist anymore? Basically every team plays a traditional center 80% of the game. The only exceptions are teams that have star forwards that are rugged enough to play the 5 - like the Spurs and Warriors. Even a guy like Davis is open about how he doesn't like playing the 5. He's a PF. The new rules have affected guards and forwards way more than C's.

However, it is true that C is a weak position right now. But other than its golden age in the mid 90s it's never been a really great position, and even that was only because of 3 HOFers.

:clap:

europagnpilgrim
11-01-2017, 09:53 PM
Sorry, can't take anybody seriously who says thinks Vuv is a top center and "basically Marc Gasol". His aggro dimwitted response was worth it though.

Never said Vuv was a top Center, I said he is basically M Gasol, a big body with some skill who can get 15ppg and whatever rebounds, Vuvecic or whatever his name is probably had better numbers than Marc at the same stage so why is Vuv overlooked but M Gasol is so elite? you guys are so damn dimwitted you are confusing yourself for others

I get called stupid and dimwitted for speaking on something so basic as what a player is capable and shown what they can do after 10 long *** years of watching, you cant be that naÔve and watch someone play for that long and act like you are seeing something special

PickleRick
11-02-2017, 02:27 PM
How big is it?!

Lmfao

PickleRick
11-02-2017, 02:45 PM
The even better question is why Connelly isnít talked about as a top 5 pg.

europagnpilgrim
11-02-2017, 02:55 PM
Breaking news: Clint Capela of the Rockets has a PER of 30.4, which is like 4th best in the entire nba, he is elite/superstar based on that PER

now watch how all those who use the same nerd gadgets now claim he isn't what his PER say because we all know he is not a superstar two way player but he does what he does and has been doing it since he has been there and I think he is in his 3rd or 4th season, a thin guy who runs the court and catches lobs and blocks a shot or three, from the times I have watched his games he has slightly improved but he isn't nowhere near being a top 10 player which most would have a player in that range based on the past PER seasons, Capela is nowhere near that and I don't care how small the sample size is because he could easily have a PER of 15 right about now but he doesn't

I bet any amount of cash that the 3 players in front of him are labeled Superstar or in the top 1-20 range by all you experts out there, GreakFreak/Curry/Davis

now why would I need to see a PER rating to know that Capela is not on those players level mentioned above? I don't and neither do you nerds