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View Full Version : What's up with D'Angelo?



JasonJohnHorn
10-25-2017, 11:25 AM
Though not a Lakers fan, I was excited to see the franchise assemble a young, talented core. However, Randle, Russell, and Ingram were each underwhelming in what I saw.

This year, though, with a change of scenery, D'Angelo Russell has been a prize to watch. It is early in the season, and his team yet accomplished anything 'special' (though in their first 4 games they've won twice as many games as they won between Dec 28th of last year and Feb 15th).

This guy, in a small sample size, is tearing it up!

.500 inside the arc, almost .400 outside (career highs bot as well as FT%h), 5.5 assists a game, nearl 4 boards, 23 points and nearly two steals. Turnover and fouls are up a little, but overall, this guy looks like an All-Star in the making.

Was there something about the situation in LA? The coaching? The focus on Kobe's retirment seasons? The losing/tanking culture?

What's the difference here?

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 11:28 AM
He's a good player with a high cieling taken 2nd in the draft for a reason. I don't see how someone can really be surprised. He showed many flashes of this even in LA. What is he now 21? These guys are coming into the league as babies compared to the rest of the league, they'll take a little longer to develop.

rhymeratic
10-25-2017, 11:38 AM
Though not a Lakers fan, I was excited to see the franchise assemble a young, talented core. However, Randle, Russell, and Ingram were each underwhelming in what I saw.

This year, though, with a change of scenery, D'Angelo Russell has been a prize to watch. It is early in the season, and his team yet accomplished anything 'special' (though in their first 4 games they've won twice as many games as they won between Dec 28th of last year and Feb 15th).

This guy, in a small sample size, is tearing it up!

.500 inside the arc, almost .400 outside (career highs bot as well as FT%h), 5.5 assists a game, nearl 4 boards, 23 points and nearly two steals. Turnover and fouls are up a little, but overall, this guy looks like an All-Star in the making.

Was there something about the situation in LA? The coaching? The focus on Kobe's retirment seasons? The losing/tanking culture?

What's the difference here?

Simply put... too much pressure on him and he wasn't mature enough to be comfortable being himself imo.

Lets hope a healthy Markelle Fultz can be just as good.

LOb0
10-25-2017, 11:41 AM
He's good and he's getting better as he gets older. That's what usually happens.

jaydubb
10-25-2017, 12:03 PM
He's a scorer that will never be able to be a piece of a championship caliber team because he's not a good enough scorer and he's not unselfish enough to be a part of a team oriented basketball style offense. He's got all the talent in the world, true, but his own ego and lack of desire to get better will win over eventually. You'll all see it in time

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WaDe03
10-25-2017, 12:06 PM
He's a scorer that will never be able to be a piece of a championship caliber team because he's not a good enough scorer and he's not unselfish enough to be a part of a team oriented basketball style offense. He's got all the talent in the world, true, but his own ego and lack of desire to get better will win over eventually. You'll all see it in time

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This just isn't true by any means. Plus, he's already improved a lot and will continue to do so.

tp13baby
10-25-2017, 12:39 PM
He's a scorer that will never be able to be a piece of a championship caliber team because he's not a good enough scorer and he's not unselfish enough to be a part of a team oriented basketball style offense. He's got all the talent in the world, true, but his own ego and lack of desire to get better will win over eventually. You'll all see it in time

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2 seasons in to make this statement? Wow.

Mr_Jones
10-25-2017, 12:53 PM
I'd recommend watching the games. He lives for the highlights but is Paris Hilton when it comes to hard work.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 01:44 PM
I'd recommend watching the games. He lives for the highlights but is Paris Hilton when it comes to hard work.

You don't get better if you don't put the work in, he obviously has.

Celticsfan2007
10-25-2017, 02:12 PM
Queue all the Lakers fan coming in here to tell you he sucks and will never develop.

mrblisterdundee
10-25-2017, 02:22 PM
I'm sure you meant, "What's up with the Lakers?" They obviously screwed it up with Russell's development, separate of the stupid things Russell said/did — not including the Nick Young saga, because screw anyone who thinks there should be a bro code for dudes cheating on their spouse. Blow his *** up, D'Angelo!
Russell still sucks at defense and needs a mentor, just like Wiggins needs someone like Butler, but the talent is there. I'd rather have Russell than Booker at this point.

IndyRealist
10-25-2017, 02:27 PM
"Turnover and fouls are up a little"

A little? Try 50% higher rate of both fouls and turnovers per minute. Russell is a scorer, plain and simple. Now he just has a chip on his shoulder. He would be much better off next to Lin to take the ballhandling duties. Never should have been at the point to begin with.

GREATNESS ONE
10-25-2017, 02:28 PM
Definitely HOF.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 02:31 PM
Definitely HOF.

You all should've traded Ingram instead tbh.

Lakers + Giants
10-25-2017, 02:40 PM
We dun goofed. He died for the sins of Kupchak and Jimmy Buss.

TheDish87
10-25-2017, 02:41 PM
"Turnover and fouls are up a little"

A little? Try 50% higher rate of both fouls and turnovers per minute. Russell is a scorer, plain and simple. Now he just has a chip on his shoulder. He would be much better off next to Lin to take the ballhandling duties. Never should have been at the point to begin with.

well Lin is out...

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 02:45 PM
No, he hasn't... That's the whole point, he doesn't put in the work.. Several of his coaches have said that to make it in the nba he's gotta put in more work than just the scheduled practices.. That's all he does. His talent will only take him so far, you'll see it eventually don't worry

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You literally don't get better if you don't put in the work. He's gotten better so.....

jaydubb
10-25-2017, 02:47 PM
You don't get better if you don't put the work in, he obviously has.No, he hasn't... That's the whole point, he doesn't put in the work.. Several of his coaches have said that to make it in the nba he's gotta put in more work than just the scheduled practices.. That's all he does. He's more concerned with social media and his night life. His talent will only take him so far, you'll see it eventually don't worry

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jaydubb
10-25-2017, 02:51 PM
"Turnover and fouls are up a little"

A little? Try 50% higher rate of both fouls and turnovers per minute. Russell is a scorer, plain and simple. Now he just has a chip on his shoulder. He would be much better off next to Lin to take the ballhandling duties. Never should have been at the point to begin with.He's not really a point guard tbh.. He's a scorer that can make the pass if necessary but if he's given the reigns to set up the offense and main ball handling duties, he will be extremely turnover prone

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jaydubb
10-25-2017, 03:02 PM
You literally don't get better if you don't put in the work. He's gotten better so.....Go ahead and read for yourself man..

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2017/5/24/15685800/la-lakers-news-dangelo-russell-byron-scott-work-ethic

Magic was critical of his work ethic too.. D'angelo just doesn't put in the work, I promise.. His talent has gotten him this far, but that will only take him so far, he will level off and regress like all the other talented players that come into the league but don't put in the work. Yea he looks better, but 1. It's a very small sample size, 2. He's at an extremely high usage rate.. The guy is pretty much given the green light to shoot whenever he wants, he hated being in LA because he didn't like running set plays, he just wanted to run the pick n roll all day and either drive or shoot if players go under the screen. He's more concerned with his social media and night life than he is putting in the work on the basketball court

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5ass
10-25-2017, 03:10 PM
He looks good. I was never super high on russell and didnt expect him to be the next MAgic Johnson or even an elite player, but his all star potential is evident. He wasnt as trash his first couple of years as some people think. He was actually good when compared to other players his age. His scoring is coming together, and eventually he should be in the 25 PPG range.

JasonJohnHorn
10-25-2017, 03:30 PM
"Turnover and fouls are up a little"

A little? Try 50% higher rate of both fouls and turnovers per minute. Russell is a scorer, plain and simple. Now he just has a chip on his shoulder. He would be much better off next to Lin to take the ballhandling duties. Never should have been at the point to begin with.

50% needs to be put in context.

As I said, this is a small sample size. Even the averages I mentioned don't mean much, but when it comes to scoring averages, 2 points up, 2 points down... it doesn't make a big impact on an average that is around 20. You take turnovers and fouls though, which are typically in single digits, then suddenly 2 up leads to a HUGE increase in averages over a short span.

In addition, there is going to be an increase because he's getting an increase in the number of possessions where he gets the ball, and in attention from defenders. He's currently taking 5 more shots a game than he was last year, and nearly an assist more... that's about six more possessions a game... His turnovers are up 1.5 per game, so with given that he is getting 10+ more possessions per game than he was getting in LA an increase in 1.5 turnovers isn't that much.

You make 50% sound like a lot, when in context, it's quite reasonable.

As for the fouls... yup.. they are up to. I'm frankly happy to see that. One of the criticism is that he wasn't a good defender. Now this may be a sign of bad defense, but the fouls are generally a sign of making an effort at least. His steals are up (almost half a steal a game) and fouls are up (1 per game).

for example... remove the Orlando game, and his turnovers are suddenly less than last year... how often will he have a game as bad as Orlando? We'll see. Maybe it's one every four games, and this average keeps up. Maybe it's one of only two or three this season, and he has a lower average than last year. He's still in a new system and getting to know it. He's made adjustments over the last couple of games and brought that number down, and one of them against the team he struggled against the first time (Orlando). So it looks like he's learning and adjusting.

He's brought the personal fouls down too. First game he had 4, then 3 then 3 then 2. He's in a new defensive system and he wasn't a strong defender to start with. Take the last three games, and his average is only 2.6.


You might just as easily point to the fact that his percentages were a little lower the last couple of games to suggest his offense hasn't improved that much as well, and that would be fair. Again, I did stress that this is a small sample size.

I'm not ready to start sucking the dude k@ck just yet, but he's showing the ability to reach the potential he had coming in and its nice to see, because BK wasn't a franchise that had much going for it coming into the seasons.

KB24PG16
10-25-2017, 03:42 PM
he's gonna be a good player, should excel in ppg for brooklyn

TheDish87
10-25-2017, 03:50 PM
No, he hasn't... That's the whole point, he doesn't put in the work.. Several of his coaches have said that to make it in the nba he's gotta put in more work than just the scheduled practices.. That's all he does. He's more concerned with social media and his night life. His talent will only take him so far, you'll see it eventually don't worry

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so based on his current play you dont think he has put in any extra work? im not sure how you would even know tat right now

More-Than-Most
10-25-2017, 03:59 PM
its more so his mentality... dude has all the talent in the world and might be great and looks damn good right now but he does have work ethic issues or did. I wouldnt have traded him though... I would have never drafted ball and kept DLO.... DLO as bad as people make him out to be still had 2 of his first seasons that will blow ingram out of the water... I love DLO and Ingram but Lakers fans were unfair towards DLO and way to loyal to ingram.... I think they made a big big mistake here.

Heediot
10-25-2017, 04:05 PM
I always liked his game (offensively) and thought it should of translated to the league. Maybe a change of scenery did wonders, we will see small sample size but things look promising.

Heediot
10-25-2017, 04:07 PM
He's a scorer that will never be able to be a piece of a championship caliber team because he's not a good enough scorer and he's not unselfish enough to be a part of a team oriented basketball style offense. He's got all the talent in the world, true, but his own ego and lack of desire to get better will win over eventually. You'll all see it in time

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Nets are pretty team oriented offense with a lot of ball movement no? I can the selfish part because he has a bit of kyrie in him and his style of play.

IndyRealist
10-25-2017, 04:20 PM
50% needs to be put in context.

As I said, this is a small sample size. Even the averages I mentioned don't mean much, but when it comes to scoring averages, 2 points up, 2 points down... it doesn't make a big impact on an average that is around 20. You take turnovers and fouls though, which are typically in single digits, then suddenly 2 up leads to a HUGE increase in averages over a short span.

In addition, there is going to be an increase because he's getting an increase in the number of possessions where he gets the ball, and in attention from defenders. He's currently taking 5 more shots a game than he was last year, and nearly an assist more... that's about six more possessions a game... His turnovers are up 1.5 per game, so with given that he is getting 10+ more possessions per game than he was getting in LA an increase in 1.5 turnovers isn't that much.

You make 50% sound like a lot, when in context, it's quite reasonable.

As for the fouls... yup.. they are up to. I'm frankly happy to see that. One of the criticism is that he wasn't a good defender. Now this may be a sign of bad defense, but the fouls are generally a sign of making an effort at least. His steals are up (almost half a steal a game) and fouls are up (1 per game).

for example... remove the Orlando game, and his turnovers are suddenly less than last year... how often will he have a game as bad as Orlando? We'll see. Maybe it's one every four games, and this average keeps up. Maybe it's one of only two or three this season, and he has a lower average than last year. He's still in a new system and getting to know it. He's made adjustments over the last couple of games and brought that number down, and one of them against the team he struggled against the first time (Orlando). So it looks like he's learning and adjusting.

He's brought the personal fouls down too. First game he had 4, then 3 then 3 then 2. He's in a new defensive system and he wasn't a strong defender to start with. Take the last three games, and his average is only 2.6.


You might just as easily point to the fact that his percentages were a little lower the last couple of games to suggest his offense hasn't improved that much as well, and that would be fair. Again, I did stress that this is a small sample size.

I'm not ready to start sucking the dude k@ck just yet, but he's showing the ability to reach the potential he had coming in and its nice to see, because BK wasn't a franchise that had much going for it coming into the seasons.

The sample size for his scoring is exactly the same sample size for his turnovers. The whole premise of this thread is "Dude's on a tear to start the season" and I said, "No, he's not." In small sample sizes weird things happen. You can't say part of that is valid and part of it isn't, due to sample size. You drew the conclusion that he's "showing the ability to reach his potential" based on 4 games, but turnovers and fouls don't matter in 4 games? And then to top it off you're gonna cherry pick by throwing out games that don't fit your narrative? C'mon man, that's the DEFINITION of cognitive bias.

Vee-Rex
10-25-2017, 04:44 PM
The Cavs have the Nets pick, THAT'S what is wrong with D-Lo. If any other team had that pick D-Lo wouldn't be half as good. It's just the bad luck of the Cavs, that's all.

#badluck
#curseliveson

Mr_Jones
10-25-2017, 04:52 PM
You don't get better if you don't put the work in, he obviously has.

So, because he's doing more offensively, his defensive output is acceptable? His offensive style demands the ball, stagnates the offense, and relies heavily on isolation. His defense is unquestionably horrific. His effort was poor. Those are things that do not typically show up statistically. The Lakers got better by subtraction.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 04:54 PM
So, because he's doing more offensively, his defensive output is acceptable? His offensive style demands the ball, stagnates the offense, and relies heavily on isolation. His defense is unquestionably horrific. His effort was poor. Those are things that do not typically show up statistically. The Lakers got better by subtraction.

Looks to me like the Lakers would've been better off sending Ingram and trying to include Deng as well.

GiantsSwaGG
10-25-2017, 05:10 PM
Remember when Michael Beasley look like he might of figured it out?

Give it time he’ll come back down to earth.

LOb0
10-25-2017, 05:21 PM
Looks to me like the Lakers would've been better off sending Ingram and trying to include Deng as well.

That's a great point. I'm just not liking Ingram at all. Would have been a problem having Russel and Ball tho.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 05:30 PM
That's a great point. I'm just not liking Ingram at all. Would have been a problem having Russel and Ball tho.

Put Russell at the 2 as a primary scorer who can also make plays for others while attacking. I think it would've been a good fit.

JasonJohnHorn
10-25-2017, 06:00 PM
The sample size for his scoring is exactly the same sample size for his turnovers. The whole premise of this thread is "Dude's on a tear to start the season" and I said, "No, he's not." In small sample sizes weird things happen. You can't say part of that is valid and part of it isn't, due to sample size. You drew the conclusion that he's "showing the ability to reach his potential" based on 4 games, but turnovers and fouls don't matter in 4 games? And then to top it off you're gonna cherry pick by throwing out games that don't fit your narrative? C'mon man, that's the DEFINITION of cognitive bias.

There's no bias in there at all. I concede from the start that it is a small sample size, and I also concede that you might make a point that his percentages look bolstered because of a few good games. I'm simply noting that averages of things like personal fouls and turnovers, which are generally lower, are more significantly impact by one bad game in four, than is something like scoring, where the average, is not significantly impact by and increase of decrease in 2 or 3 points.

Dude... I've clearly made a point of noting the flaw of relying on a small sample size, and state that time will tell, but there is some real potential on display here, especially considering he's learning a new system offensively and defensively, and the offensive system just had a major wrench thrown into with Lin getting injured.

There's not cognitive bias here. I put the 50% claims in context. 50% sounds like a lot. And extra 1.5 turnovers with 10+ more possessions (or 30-40% more possessions) a game doesn't. If you can't see that, then maybe it's time you look up the term 'cognitive bias'.

This reminds my of Neil DeGrasse Tyson talking about his jury duty sessions. During selection (and I may be fuzzy on the details) they asked him about the charge of a guy who was accused of have 1000 grams of pot, and he said: Why do you said 1000 grams instead in 1 kilo? In science you just go with the lowest measurement. The prosecutor excused him from jury duty. Why? Because 1 sounds like a lot less than 1000. And 50% sounds like a lot more than 1.5 especially when put on the context that he's handling the ball 30-40% more and should expect a sharp increase in turnovers.

kobebabe
10-25-2017, 06:23 PM
Put Russell at the 2 as a primary scorer who can also make plays for others while attacking. I think it would've been a good fit.

Russel and ball would have been the worst backcourt as far as defense is concerned. Offensively might have worked but defensively nah

JasonJohnHorn
10-25-2017, 06:32 PM
Russel and ball would have been the worst backcourt as far as defense is concerned. Offensively might have worked but defensively nah

That seems fair. I feel like Lonzo will put in the work to get better there. Rookies generally struggle defensively.

I'm not sure about Melo. Somebody else here said he might eventually be a great scorer, but never lead a teame to a title because of his lack of defense (they may have added selfishness). It sounds like they are describing Melo, but that may very well be applicable to D'Angelo as well.

We'll see. Even if 'Angelo turns out to be pretty good, I think the trade wase still smart for LAL because Lopez will likely be a better fit with Ball, and Ball will likely turn out to be better than 'Angelo.

Lakers have got no reason to regret the trade. It was time to move on from 'Angelo. He wasn't going to see success in LAL.

jaydubb
10-25-2017, 06:42 PM
so based on his current play you dont think he has put in any extra work? im not sure how you would even know tat right nowI don't know that he's put in extra work this year tbh, I just know from his time with the lakers he was known to have poor work ethic. Who knows, maybe someone over there in Brooklyn reached a part of russell that the lakers never could and got him to put in extra work :shrug:

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jaydubb
10-25-2017, 06:43 PM
Remember when Michael Beasley look like he might of figured it out?

Give it time he’ll come back down to earth.Thank you ^^

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jaydubb
10-25-2017, 06:46 PM
Russel and ball would have been the worst backcourt as far as defense is concerned. Offensively might have worked but defensively nahIt would have been historically bad.. Whether ball and Lonzo could mesh on offense is debatable, but defensively they'd give up 50 per game

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L8kers4life
10-25-2017, 07:17 PM
Though not a Lakers fan, I was excited to see the franchise assemble a young, talented core. However, Randle, Russell, and Ingram were each underwhelming in what I saw.

This year, though, with a change of scenery, D'Angelo Russell has been a prize to watch. It is early in the season, and his team yet accomplished anything 'special' (though in their first 4 games they've won twice as many games as they won between Dec 28th of last year and Feb 15th).

This guy, in a small sample size, is tearing it up!

.500 inside the arc, almost .400 outside (career highs bot as well as FT%h), 5.5 assists a game, nearl 4 boards, 23 points and nearly two steals. Turnover and fouls are up a little, but overall, this guy looks like an All-Star in the making.

Was there something about the situation in LA? The coaching? The focus on Kobe's retirment seasons? The losing/tanking culture?

What's the difference here?


Most of us true lakers fans out here are not happy with the trade at all. None of us knew that Kyle Kuzma would be as good as he is, so when we got brook Lopez and the 27th pick for Dangelo, I was shocked and angered that this was the first move Magic made. Not only could Dangelo have played with Lonzo, his shooting could help this team and he is a young stud. Magic is all about culture and the Nick young thing in the end is what ended Dangelos time here in La.

Whatever fans may think or how much they hate Dangelo out here, we started off 10-10 last year he was red hot and we had hope. Once he got hurt something happened with Luke and nothing was ever the same. I will always cheer for Dangelo I thought he was a good Laker and had an all star future. He will definitely make the all star team out east and his prowess for scoring is only getting better. Thank god we got Kuzma and he is better than we all thought, otherwise there is no real way to feel good about this trade. Cap money hasn't done much for the Lakers lately m, so assuming the Lakers will sign someone with the cap space is iffy at best. After this summer we can look back on this trade to see if it was worth it, in my eyes, you don't trade a 20 year old with star potential on the rise, especially in this era, they could have got a 27 pick for Randle, it is what it is, guess we just have to live with it.

kobe4thewinbang
10-25-2017, 07:30 PM
Might be the bright lights of LA. I think part of him is hungry to prove his stake in the league. Like I said earlier, Lin going out will give him even more pressure. We'll see. But he's got a deadeye from 3PT territory on most nights and I think he's possibly started to embrace his "scorer" mentality after hem-and-haw'ing it last year going "Hmm, am I point guard or not?" Most Lakers fans didn't think he was. He can still give a team like 5-7 assists, but he doesn't look for it.

IndyRealist
10-25-2017, 08:36 PM
There's no bias in there at all. I concede from the start that it is a small sample size, and I also concede that you might make a point that his percentages look bolstered because of a few good games. I'm simply noting that averages of things like personal fouls and turnovers, which are generally lower, are more significantly impact by one bad game in four, than is something like scoring, where the average, is not significantly impact by and increase of decrease in 2 or 3 points.

Dude... I've clearly made a point of noting the flaw of relying on a small sample size, and state that time will tell, but there is some real potential on display here, especially considering he's learning a new system offensively and defensively, and the offensive system just had a major wrench thrown into with Lin getting injured.

There's not cognitive bias here. I put the 50% claims in context. 50% sounds like a lot. And extra 1.5 turnovers with 10+ more possessions (or 30-40% more possessions) a game doesn't. If you can't see that, then maybe it's time you look up the term 'cognitive bias'.

This reminds my of Neil DeGrasse Tyson talking about his jury duty sessions. During selection (and I may be fuzzy on the details) they asked him about the charge of a guy who was accused of have 1000 grams of pot, and he said: Why do you said 1000 grams instead in 1 kilo? In science you just go with the lowest measurement. The prosecutor excused him from jury duty. Why? Because 1 sounds like a lot less than 1000. And 50% sounds like a lot more than 1.5 especially when put on the context that he's handling the ball 30-40% more and should expect a sharp increase in turnovers.

The cognitive bias was throwing out the game he had a bunch of turnovers in, i.e. cherry picking. You really can't see that you're saying "his shooting percentages matter over 4 games, they show his potential, but his turnovers and fouls don't matter over 4 games because it's a small sample size"? Emphasizing what supports you opinion and marginalizing what doesn't...sounds like cognitive bias to me.

I added context by saying that something that occurs less frequently (turnovers) was occurring 50% more often per minute. 1.5 extra turnovers a game is A LOT when you add the context that last year he averaged 2.8. If I wanted to exaggerate I would have quoted as a percentage per game, which is 54%. But I went with per minute because that's the better way to look at it. Or I could have pointed to ast:to ratio, which is an atrocious 1.27:1. But I didn't. I focused on the best stat to illustrate the point. His turnovers and fouls are way up over 4 games. You referred to it as "Turnover and fouls are up a little".

JasonJohnHorn
10-25-2017, 09:16 PM
The cognitive bias was throwing out the game he had a bunch of turnovers in, i.e. cherry picking.

A cognitive bias is using only logic that supports your claim and arguing others. Taking things out of context. I didn't discount that, I simply said that because the numbers for turnovers are significantly lower in general, one high game in a small sample has a more dramatic influence than it would in scoring.


Now, however you might define the term, if we go to Wikipedia (which itself has flaws that I'm willing to concede, but is well cited in this instance), it says "A cognitive bias refers to the systematic pattern of deviation from norm or rationality in judgment, whereby inferences about other people and situations may be drawn in an illogical fashion.[1] Individuals create their own "subjective social reality" from their perception of the input. An individual's construction of social reality, not the objective input, may dictate their behaviour in the social world.[2] Thus, cognitive biases may sometimes lead to perceptual distortion, inaccurate judgment, illogical interpretation, or what is broadly called irrationality.[3][4][5]"

Please note the bolded. You've made inferences about my statements that suggest I'm making some sort of argument, when I've clearly framed the entire conversation within the context of a small sample size that I willingly admit may be overshadowed by the rest of the season.

You point to the turnover and fouls, which I admit are up, but you don't put them into a broader context. You take a raw state (turnovers per game) and don't consider turnover-per-possession. You use a percentage, but you choose whole numbers instead of decimals. These shape the the numbers are perceived.

You can say 50%, or .500, or you could say (as a hypothetical example): Last year he had 20 possession per game and got about 2 turnovers, now he has 30 and he's getting 3. In which case, it's not even an increase in turnover-to-possession ration.

That is a cognitive bias. I've clearly admitted to the flaws of relying on a small sample, and I've clearly concede that pointing to out that his shooting percentage numbers may be grossly misleading in a small sample, and yet, you've ignored that because it doesn't fit your narrative.

You are being reactionary, and now have painted yourself into a corner, are throwing out attacks of logical fallacies that you yourself are actually the one who is guilty of using, and expecting some how that I'm a moron who will just say "Oh... big words, I'm dumb; he's right." But...I got half a brain and can figure out how to use it some time, so your horse $#!t doesn't fly with me.







You really can't see that you're saying "his shooting percentages matter over 4 games, they show his potential, but his turnovers and fouls don't matter over 4 games because it's a small sample size"? Emphasizing what supports you opinion and marginalizing what doesn't...sounds like cognitive bias to me.

You've created a false inference there.

I said:

"You might just as easily point to the fact that his percentages were a little lower the last couple of games to suggest his offense hasn't improved that much as well, and that would be fair. Again, I did stress that this is a small sample size."

I admit that this is a small sample size (not a cognitive bias, but admitting the flaw of the small sample size, which I admit in the first post if you took the time to read it), and point to the fact that a criticism about making judgments on his shooting would be a fair criticism.

But I also point out that each game has seen improvement in the fouls committed under the new system, and that aside from one game, his turnover are down, and that in the context of the increased number of possessions (which YOU still fail to acknowledge because you have a confirmation bias/cognitive bias) the increase in turnovers is negligible, particularly because in this context he's not only in a new offensive system, but that system saw a major shift when Lin when down, and subsequent games saw a dramatic reduction in turnovers.




I added context by saying that something that occurs less frequently (turnovers) was occurring 50% more often per minute. 1.5 extra turnovers a game is A LOT when you add the context that last year he averaged 2.8. If I wanted to exaggerate I would have quoted as a percentage per game, which is 54%. But I went with per minute because that's the better way to look at it.

That's YOUR context. That's the context that suits your argument. That's a bias on your part, because you FAIL to consider how many possessions he's getting.


Or I could have pointed to ast:to ratio, which is an atrocious 1.27:1. But I didn't.

This is again a bias, because a person doesn't only turnover the ball when they are passing, but when the are handling the ball in general. An increase in the number of or possession, whether meant to score or pass, will invariably lead to an increase in the number of turnovers that player commits.

If a guy is on the floor for 48 minutes and doesn't touch the ball, he won't turn it over. It doesn't matter how many minutes he's on the floor, it matters how many possessions he gets.

Likewise, a guy might successfully pass the ball 10 times and cause one turnover. On a team that shooting well, those 10 passes might convert to 4 made shots, in which case he has an A-T of 4-1. Or the guy might make a pass to a guy who makes a pass, or his teammates miss the shots, and it only leads to one made FG, in which case his A-T would be 1-1 but he still completed 10 passes.

It's the number of possessions that matters. He's taking

As I said... he's taking 5 more shots per game right now, and getting about one assist more and 1.5 turnovers more. That right there is an increase of about 8 possessions per game, and if his team is shooting .500 (and let's say the Lakers were about the same last year), then for every assist he gets, he likely gets another made pass that led to a missed shot, which puts it at about 9 more possession per game in the same number of minutes. 9 more possessions and 1.5 more turnovers doesn't seem to be unreasonable.


I focused on the best stat to illustrate the point. His turnovers and fouls are way up over 4 games. You referred to it as "Turnover and fouls are up a little".

No... you focused on the stat that supported your view, and ignored the context of the conversations, and the points that I conceded to because you feel like you somehow have to disagree with somebody and prove their wrong to make yourself feel good, all the while you've misconstrued the context of the conversation, created inferences that are inconsistent with the language I used, and relied on flawed statistical analysis and an absence of context to support a claim that I essentially concede to in the opening: that this is a small sample size and any apparent improvement needs to be put in its proper context and essentially taken with a grain of salt. But that said... how about this performance so far?

Now... that said... thanks for sharing your thoughts, but if you keep rambling on the way you are, I'm just going to be talking in circles to somebody who refuses to take a step back and admit that they jumped the gun and are simply being reactionary.

IndyRealist
10-25-2017, 09:21 PM
I give. Agree to disagree. Just getting too old for this protracted arguments anymore.

jaydubb
10-25-2017, 09:22 PM
Brooklyn is kicking Clevelands *** without d'angelo tonight. 84-71.. Wow!

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JasonJohnHorn
10-25-2017, 11:20 PM
I give. Agree to disagree. Just getting too old for this protracted arguments anymore.

Thank for the debate. Fun times :-)

FlashBolt
10-26-2017, 01:35 AM
D'Angelo's biggest issue was a lack of leadership and immaturity. Nick Young was just a bad influence on this young team, IMO. He's too outgoing and when you're young, it's bad habit to follow some of these other guys. It's still way too early in the season and teams are still figuring out how to gel so I don't think the beginning 30 games prove much. It's going to take a team like the Cavs, OKC, Minny more than that to figure out how to get their team going and meanwhile, you'll have teams taking advantage of that inexperience getting some wins. So while teams are losing when they shouldn't be, it's understandable. Same with how a player is playing right now. D'Angelo right now is averaging 28/6/6 on PER36. That's insane. Getting traded was probably the best thing for him professionally.

jaydubb
10-26-2017, 02:53 AM
Looks to me like the Lakers would've been better off sending Ingram and trying to include Deng as well.I disagree. Ingram has got tons of talent (so does Russell) but the one thing that sets them apart is.... You guessed it, work ethic! Russell has had multiple coaches complain about Russell's work ethic whereas ingrams coaches can't say enough about how much work he's putting in to be better. Ingram is so young that it's almost like he's a rookie age, in fact he's only like a month older than Lonzo ball. He still needs time to grow into his body, but I think he will be very good on both ends of the floor in time. I personally like 2 way players much better than 1 dimensional prima donna players. :shrug:

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jaydubb
10-26-2017, 02:58 AM
D'Angelo's biggest issue was a lack of leadership and immaturity. Nick Young was just a bad influence on this young team, IMO. He's too outgoing and when you're young, it's bad habit to follow some of these other guys. It's still way too early in the season and teams are still figuring out how to gel so I don't think the beginning 30 games prove much. It's going to take a team like the Cavs, OKC, Minny more than that to figure out how to get their team going and meanwhile, you'll have teams taking advantage of that inexperience getting some wins. So while teams are losing when they shouldn't be, it's understandable. Same with how a player is playing right now. D'Angelo right now is averaging 28/6/6 on PER36. That's insane. Getting traded was probably the best thing for him professionally.

I agree that lack of leadership and immaturity was part of his downfall in LA. And if he learned to grow up in Brooklyn and actually be a leader and put in the extra work to become a better player, then more power to him.. I just would be surprised tbh because he definitely wasn't that way in LA.. The stats he's putting up now won't be sustained, I'd be very surprised.. He will have his best year yet stat wise though, but it won't be enough to help the team win imo.. He can score 25 but he will also give up 25 on the other end.

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L8kers4life
10-26-2017, 03:57 AM
I disagree. Ingram has got tons of talent (so does Russell) but the one thing that sets them apart is.... You guessed it, work ethic! Russell has had multiple coaches complain about Russell's work ethic whereas ingrams coaches can't say enough about how much work he's putting in to be better. Ingram is so young that it's almost like he's a rookie age, in fact he's only like a month older than Lonzo ball. He still needs time to grow into his body, but I think he will be very good on both ends of the floor in time. I personally like 2 way players much better than 1 dimensional prima donna players. :shrug:

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Agreed, with Ingram the attitude, length, demeanor and work ethic are great, Lakers just need to keep letting him develop, he gets better every game, not every player starts out a star, Ingram I believe can develop into 1, it's just taking a bit longer than most laker fans had hoped for

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-26-2017, 08:52 AM
You all should've traded Ingram instead tbh.

I'd keep Kuzma though. He's the real deal. I'd use Ingram to move Deng.

LA4life24/8
10-26-2017, 09:44 AM
Brooklyn is kicking Clevelands *** without d'angelo tonight. 84-71.. Wow!

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Yep... and who did the best this game? His replqcenent lol

Dblo isnt terrible but all these people on here defending him saying we shouldnt have traded him yada yada dont know what they are talkin about. His time in LA was done, whether or not he becomes a superstar elsewhere, he wouldn't have in LA. Period. Didnt have the maturity to handle the big lights.

Also we still got the better of the trade kuz+blo>>>>>dblo moz. Ill do that trade err day.

Magic said it" we wanted a leader" dblo isnt a leader

mightybosstone
10-26-2017, 03:20 PM
I realize that the two guys are working with insanely small sample sizes this season, but it has to make the Lakers front office wonder—if only for a second—whether they should have kept Russell instead of putting all their eggs in the Lonzo Ball basket. As an admitted Lakers (and Ball family) hater, I would kinda love to see Russell end up the better NBA player than Ball.

ldawg
10-27-2017, 06:50 AM
Russell might be the new Brandon Roy i think the kid got bad knees. I think him and Ball would have worked well together and Lakers could use a shooter. Ball plays for LA so the hype will carry on but Fox seem to be ahead in limited time. Ball is the elite rebounder and has good IQ so his potential is great.

Vinylman
10-27-2017, 07:06 AM
JJH with another troll Lakers fans thread...

Indy gets it...

Enjoy DBLO Brooklyn... no one will ever win anything with him eating up 25% of the cap which he will be when he gets his extension next fall since the Nets won't have anyone else to spend the money on.

Vinylman
10-27-2017, 07:09 AM
Been playing some elite teams also

Orlando X 2
Indy
Atlanta

Get the HOF induction speech ready DBLO

koreancabbage
10-27-2017, 03:15 PM
basically the people who said Russell is a noone and can't amount to anything in and after his first season are idiots

DanG
10-27-2017, 03:24 PM
Really like D'Angelo, think the Lakers didn't use his talents the right way, the system made him to be a catch and shoot player. And also Nick Young is/was a clown, should've traded him ages ago. Still would do the trade though, I like Kuzma just as much as DLo or maybe even more.

DanG
10-27-2017, 03:33 PM
its more so his mentality... dude has all the talent in the world and might be great and looks damn good right now but he does have work ethic issues or did. I wouldnt have traded him though... I would have never drafted ball and kept DLO.... DLO as bad as people make him out to be still had 2 of his first seasons that will blow ingram out of the water... I love DLO and Ingram but Lakers fans were unfair towards DLO and way to loyal to ingram.... I think they made a big big mistake here.

You're smoking. The only thing D'Angelo can do better than Ball is score.

Weren't you one of the guys that has been hating on Lonzo? I think you were. I just don't understand you people, like what has he done to you?

nicnac
10-27-2017, 06:18 PM
I have watched him since high school the big difference is that he is not a pointment guard never has been and all of the espn hype bc he can pass was misguided I knew that as soon as the NBA figureD it out he would shine and he isn't even mature yet wait till he gets comfortable 27 5 and 5 can be regular

BTW Russell and Simmons were on team in high school rusell was not the point guard

tp13baby
10-27-2017, 06:54 PM
The sample size for his scoring is exactly the same sample size for his turnovers. The whole premise of this thread is "Dude's on a tear to start the season" and I said, "No, he's not." In small sample sizes weird things happen. You can't say part of that is valid and part of it isn't, due to sample size. You drew the conclusion that he's "showing the ability to reach his potential" based on 4 games, but turnovers and fouls don't matter in 4 games? And then to top it off you're gonna cherry pick by throwing out games that don't fit your narrative? C'mon man, that's the DEFINITION of cognitive bias.

The narrative he is turnover prone but his turnover percentage is 2 percent higher than career average and 1 percent higher that most of Lebrons season tells you he isn’t that bad with the ball. PG is not his position but to use his turnovers per game and not look at percentages and his insane usage rate 4 turnovers per isn’t too high.

Keep the hate up though. His efficiency is up, TS% and PER is up.

THE_LOGO
10-27-2017, 08:05 PM
I assumed that D'bag's numbers would go up because he's the only one that the Nets have high hopes for. What is wrong with this kid is he's the typical millennial - he expects everything to be handed to him. One of his very first interviews as a Laker was how he's the point guard so he's the leader and all his teammates should respect him. How would you think that would sound to vets? Then as a point guard, you'd expect that he'd set up the offense. Well his version of setting up the offense was calling for his own shot 90% of the time. Nevermind the horrible D. Nevermind the poor work ethic. Nevermind the extreme immaturity.

It was a given that the Lakers were drafting Ball. I thought D'bag would slide to the 2. They even featured him there at that spot towards the end of last year. I wouldn't have mind had that scenario played out. I was even curious. However, I didn't shed a tear when I heard he was traded. I thought it we could have received more, as in a higher pick. But hey, things happen for a reason. I ain't mad with Kuz.

I'm not here to blast any of D'bag's fans. To each his own. You see an all-star. I see a douche. My opinion is he cannot lead a team to a championship like he thinks he can. If you disagree, then good luck to you.

MJNetsIsles
10-27-2017, 08:09 PM
He's a scorer that will never be able to be a piece of a championship caliber team because he's not a good enough scorer and he's not unselfish enough to be a part of a team oriented basketball style offense. He's got all the talent in the world, true, but his own ego and lack of desire to get better will win over eventually. You'll all see it in time

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Can you share any more of those sour grapes???

Judging by your LA profile pic I sense a bitter maiden.

We are happy to have D'Angelo in Brooklyn. He's a beast!

IndyRealist
10-27-2017, 08:37 PM
The narrative he is turnover prone but his turnover percentage is 2 percent higher than career average and 1 percent higher that most of Lebrons season tells you he isn’t that bad with the ball. PG is not his position but to use his turnovers per game and not look at percentages and his insane usage rate 4 turnovers per isn’t too high.

Keep the hate up though. His efficiency is up, TS% and PER is up.

Someone who doesn't agree with you isn't hating. He's a 2 guard playing point, and should always have been a 2 guard. As a 2, he's fine. As I said, he'd be much better off next to Lin.

jaydubb
10-27-2017, 10:50 PM
Can you share any more of those sour grapes???

Judging by your LA profile pic I sense a bitter maiden.

We are happy to have D'Angelo in Brooklyn. He's a beast!

Exactly what part of that post that you quoted was sour? D'angelo is a net now and I really couldn't care less :shrug:

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D-Leethal
10-27-2017, 10:55 PM
I assumed that D'bag's numbers would go up because he's the only one that the Nets have high hopes for. What is wrong with this kid is he's the typical millennial - he expects everything to be handed to him. One of his very first interviews as a Laker was how he's the point guard so he's the leader and all his teammates should respect him. How would you think that would sound to vets? Then as a point guard, you'd expect that he'd set up the offense. Well his version of setting up the offense was calling for his own shot 90% of the time. Nevermind the horrible D. Nevermind the poor work ethic. Nevermind the extreme immaturity.

It was a given that the Lakers were drafting Ball. I thought D'bag would slide to the 2. They even featured him there at that spot towards the end of last year. I wouldn't have mind had that scenario played out. I was even curious. However, I didn't shed a tear when I heard he was traded. I thought it we could have received more, as in a higher pick. But hey, things happen for a reason. I ain't mad with Kuz.

I'm not here to blast any of D'bag's fans. To each his own. You see an all-star. I see a douche. My opinion is he cannot lead a team to a championship like he thinks he can. If you disagree, then good luck to you.

:laugh2: