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mrblisterdundee
10-24-2017, 07:10 PM
Bill Russell took the 10th spot last round. This round I added John Stockton, who was ranked 19th by ESPN's #NBARank (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank160204/all-nbarank-16-20), to the player pool. Voting lasts two days.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Magic Johnson
8. Larry Bird
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Bill Russell

GREATNESS ONE
10-24-2017, 07:52 PM
No Kobe in the top 10? Yikes. Ya'll should be ashamed of yourselves.

KnicksorBust
10-24-2017, 07:57 PM
No Kobe in the top 10? Yikes. Ya'll should be ashamed of yourselves.

Troll post but I agree.

HandsOnTheWheel
10-24-2017, 08:16 PM
Bean shouldn't be out of the top 10.

Heediot
10-24-2017, 08:24 PM
Bean shouldn't be out of the top 10.

I voted him out of it straight on dislike of his personality and ego. It's wrong to do it but we all have our biases.

valade16
10-24-2017, 09:17 PM
KG should be an option if Malone, Barkley and Dirk are.

Voted Kobe. People will complain about him being outside the top 10, but who does he replace?

mngopher35
10-24-2017, 09:19 PM
Ya to me its probably Kobe or bill getting left off so someone will get mad. I'm just fine with Kobe here.

Like valade said kg needs to be added as does David Robinson IMO.

GREATNESS ONE
10-24-2017, 10:47 PM
KG 100% should be added what a monster of a player.

GREATNESS ONE
10-24-2017, 10:49 PM
Tim Duncan is #5; KG easily would be with spots switched (TD); and Kobe slightly beat them both. He's off the top 10 :laugh2:


Just happy one person admitted their hate for Kobe and why he's not on "PSD" top 10; when 100% would be on every professional or analyst on the planet. Only not on here because people just don't like Kobe/Lakers fans.

All good :)

Bostonjorge
10-24-2017, 11:33 PM
Tim Duncan is #5; KG easily would be with spots switched (TD); and Kobe slightly beat them both. He's off the top 10 :laugh2:


Just happy one person admitted their hate for Kobe and why he's not on "PSD" top 10; when 100% would be on every professional or analyst on the planet. Only not on here because people just don't like Kobe/Lakers fans.

All good :)

Kobe is 4-1 against Duncan in the playoffs. Tell Duncan Kobe is not top 10.

More-Than-Most
10-24-2017, 11:52 PM
No Kobe in the top 10? Yikes. Ya'll should be ashamed of yourselves.

there is argument for the 8-11 area but yea id have him 8 or 9.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 12:06 AM
KG is Wades ***** so Wade should be an option if we're talking KG.

mngopher35
10-25-2017, 12:15 AM
I dunno I just looked at a couple larger polls on other places and read some lists from places like ESPN/CBS etc. and it really seems like this is a somewhat common spot for Kobe.

Also KG>Wade

valade16
10-25-2017, 12:22 PM
Kobe is 4-1 against Duncan in the playoffs. Tell Duncan Kobe is not top 10.

What on earth are you talking about? The Lakers are 4-2 since the Spurs won in both 99 and 03.

And 3 of those wins were with Shaq, so no it wasn't Kobe's team.

kdspurman
10-25-2017, 12:22 PM
Tim Duncan is #5; KG easily would be with spots switched (TD); and Kobe slightly beat them both. He's off the top 10 :laugh2:


Just happy one person admitted their hate for Kobe and why he's not on "PSD" top 10; when 100% would be on every professional or analyst on the planet. Only not on here because people just don't like Kobe/Lakers fans.

All good :)

Yea, idk about that one... It's funny when people say that tho.

I do think Kobe should be top 10 personally, but it is what it is

kdspurman
10-25-2017, 12:23 PM
KG should be an option if Malone, Barkley and Dirk are.

Voted Kobe. People will complain about him being outside the top 10, but who does he replace?

As should the Admiral imo

valade16
10-25-2017, 12:26 PM
As should the Admiral imo

Forgot about him, definitely.

ewing
10-25-2017, 12:53 PM
KG should be an option if Malone, Barkley and Dirk are.

Voted Kobe. People will complain about him being outside the top 10, but who does he replace?

Ewing was better then all 3

ewing
10-25-2017, 12:55 PM
anyway, this is Kobe

ewing
10-25-2017, 12:58 PM
Which 3? Karl Malone, Barkley and Dirk?

KG and Barkley at least

valade16
10-25-2017, 12:59 PM
Ewing was better then all 3

Which 3? Karl Malone, Barkley and Dirk?

AntiG
10-25-2017, 01:56 PM
As should the Admiral imo

Robinson, Ewing, Drexler all should be on this list.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 02:25 PM
Wade > KG, Dirk, Barkley, West, Stockton, Ewing, Drexler, Baylor

mrblisterdundee
10-25-2017, 02:26 PM
KG should be an option if Malone, Barkley and Dirk are.

Voted Kobe. People will complain about him being outside the top 10, but who does he replace?

Like I said, I'm using ESPN's all-time rankings, which are far from perfect but provide a baseline for the voting pool. Garnett will be added in two rounds, as he's ranked 21st after David Robinson. Maybe I can expand the voting pool to 20.

GREATNESS ONE
10-25-2017, 02:31 PM
Yea, idk about that one... It's funny when people say that tho.

I do think Kobe should be top 10 personally, but it is what it is

Yea truly hard to just say it but both those guys were so special, Timmy was drafted into a great situation. Not to take away from Duncan because he was absolutely amazing.

thegerman
10-25-2017, 02:39 PM
how is kobe not top 10?
Dirk>>> KG

europagnpilgrim
10-25-2017, 03:43 PM
I voted him out of it straight on dislike of his personality and ego. It's wrong to do it but we all have our biases.

well I be damn if you base it off that then you don't like a single ****ing athlete in the world on that Kobe type level that is, and I mean none because they are basically all the same, pampered in their own ego maniac ways

Vee-Rex
10-25-2017, 04:15 PM
What is the argument for Dirk over KG?

KG - waaaaay better rebounder, waaaaaay better passer (KG's one of the best passing big men ever), and MUUUUCH better defender, like the gap here is astronomical.

The only thing Dirk could do better was score.

Again, biases are at play here - everyone loves dirk, everyone hates KG. Some of you need to learn to separate that ****.

valade16
10-25-2017, 05:07 PM
What is the argument for Dirk over KG?

KG - waaaaay better rebounder, waaaaaay better passer (KG's one of the best passing big men ever), and MUUUUCH better defender, like the gap here is astronomical.

The only thing Dirk could do better was score.

Again, biases are at play here - everyone loves dirk, everyone hates KG. Some of you need to learn to separate that ****.

I think without delving too deep into the subject it's that KG continually played worse in the playoffs where as Dirk raised his game up.

Dirk's career averages are 21.7 PPG and 7.8 RPG and his playoff averages are 25 PPG and 10 RPG.

That's pretty incredible to play that much better in the playoffs when most players statistically get worse due to the quality of the defenses.

ewing
10-25-2017, 05:17 PM
What is the argument for Dirk over KG?

KG - waaaaay better rebounder, waaaaaay better passer (KG's one of the best passing big men ever), and MUUUUCH better defender, like the gap here is astronomical.

The only thing Dirk could do better was score.

Again, biases are at play here - everyone loves dirk, everyone hates KG. Some of you need to learn to separate that ****.


Dirk could make you a top offense with average offense talent around him. Did KG make you a top rebounding team, top defensive team, top passing team?

Hawkeye15
10-25-2017, 05:18 PM
Kobe here for sure

hugepatsfan
10-25-2017, 05:21 PM
I think without delving too deep into the subject it's that KG continually played worse in the playoffs where as Dirk raised his game up.

Dirk's career averages are 21.7 PPG and 7.8 RPG and his playoff averages are 25 PPG and 10 RPG.

That's pretty incredible to play that much better in the playoffs when most players statistically get worse due to the quality of the defenses.

His playoff per 36s are 22.4 and 8.8 RPG. His regular season per 36 are 22.4 and 8.2.

KG's reg season per 36 was 18.6/10.5. His playoffs per 36 were 17.7 and 10.5. If you just go by his MIN years (since he hirt his knee in BOS year 2 and was never the same) he was 19.1/10.7 per 36 in reg season and 18.9/11,3 in the postseason.

Dirk didn't really play any better, he just played more. He was fortunate enough to be on better teams where he could be left at a normal minute workload and then come playoff time the extended minutes made it look like he played more. KG through his MIN years was on worse teams so he was already up at playoff per game minutes out of necessity. So he doesn't get that bump in his per game numbers from the extended minutes the way Dirk did.

ewing
10-25-2017, 05:29 PM
His playoff per 36s are 22.4 and 8.8 RPG. His regular season per 36 are 22.4 and 8.2.

KG's reg season per 36 was 18.6/10.5. His playoffs per 36 were 17.7 and 10.5. If you just go by his MIN years (since he hirt his knee in BOS year 2 and was never the same) he was 19.1/10.7 per 36 in reg season and 18.9/11,3 in the postseason.

Dirk didn't really play any better, he just played more. He was fortunate enough to be on better teams where he could be left at a normal minute workload and then come playoff time the extended minutes made it look like he played more. KG through his MIN years was on worse teams so he was already up at playoff per game minutes out of necessity. So he doesn't get that bump in his per game numbers from the extended minutes the way Dirk did.

and if we pretend KG hit big shots or drew double teams at the end of games....

mngopher35
10-25-2017, 05:30 PM
Ya Dirk was actually underrated for a little bit I think but it has definitely caught back up. KG was clearly better all around like mentioned (passing, rebounding, defense) while Dirk had around 5-6 ppg more on better overall efficiency (during primes). KG didn't raise up in the playoffs to the same level on offense but also generally had very poor casts that held him back to an extent and forced him into tougher situations (as a player not quite elite at creating for others).

It's kinda odd because regular season Dirk and KG aren't that far off in on/off numbers over their careers. Yet come playoff time KG is at +13.2 net and Dirk is at +2.8. I think it's possible that type of help surrounding you come playoff time (or lack of it on the other side) could be a factor.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01/on-off/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01/on-off/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CA4KxmzjZrTlYqxNU85jkUnCcqvJjsP5LT818LSYjkk/edit#gid=0
PSK shared this during one of our games before and I found it interesting. No adjustment for age but it is the RAPM stat (somewhat similar to rpm on espn) for I believe it was 2000-2015 season or very close to that. KG was very highly ranked in stats like on/off and this overall.

I think KG is the best pf but it is pretty tough to say for sure given the playoffs (despite what I mention/show with his teammates). The impact numbers etc do generally point to him having a great argument for not only that spot but going asap on this list. Kinda gotta balance it all and with him it is very mixed depending on what you look for (team success/playoff numbers not great as he missed chunk of prime on Wolves) but individually his impact/numbers overall are very good and he has an MVP etc. as well so not overly lacking in accolades despite the team (mostly due to actually having help in 04/08). In the end the Wolves still have yet to make the playoffs without KG leading us there so I am probably going to always lean a little his way in the PF discussion haha.

valade16
10-25-2017, 05:43 PM
His playoff per 36s are 22.4 and 8.8 RPG. His regular season per 36 are 22.4 and 8.2.

KG's reg season per 36 was 18.6/10.5. His playoffs per 36 were 17.7 and 10.5. If you just go by his MIN years (since he hirt his knee in BOS year 2 and was never the same) he was 19.1/10.7 per 36 in reg season and 18.9/11,3 in the postseason.

Dirk didn't really play any better, he just played more. He was fortunate enough to be on better teams where he could be left at a normal minute workload and then come playoff time the extended minutes made it look like he played more. KG through his MIN years was on worse teams so he was already up at playoff per game minutes out of necessity. So he doesn't get that bump in his per game numbers from the extended minutes the way Dirk did.

Well KG's TS% also went from .546 to .525 in the playoffs (.543 to .511 in Minny). Dirk's was .578 in the regular season and .577 in the playoffs.

Also Dirk's BPM went from 3.3 in his career to 4.0 in the playoffs (4.8 during his peak). KG's went from 5.4 (6.3 in Minny) to 4.6 (5.6 in Minny).

Not to mention Dirk's BPM was very high a lot of years: 8.2 in 2010, 7.9 in 06, 7.1 in 08. KG's were 9.4 in 01 (4 games), 6.4 in 99, 6.4 in 08, 6.2 in 04, and 6.2 in 00.

So while he may not have been as consistent in his performances, Dirk raised his game during certain playoff runs to a level KG rarely achieved in the postseason.

So even though Dirk was putting up the same rate stats on superior efficiency KG was putting up the same rate stats on decreased efficiency. Hence KG getting worse in the playoffs and Dirk getting better.

Bostonjorge
10-25-2017, 05:53 PM
What on earth are you talking about? The Lakers are 4-2 since the Spurs won in both 99 and 03.

And 3 of those wins were with Shaq, so no it wasn't Kobe's team.

Forgot about 99 when Kobe was not starting. So it is 4-2 for Kobe.

In 04 western finals, Kobe was the clear MVP of the series over Shaq and Kobe out played Duncan. While being guarded by Bowen, Kobe led the game in scoring(both teams)in 4 of 6 games. Kobe led lakers in scoring, assists and steals.

The next time Kobe and Duncan met in 08 Shaq was gone and Duncan was the defending champ. This elite version of Duncan was taken down pretty easily by Kobes lakers in 5. Duncan got you averages of 22 points and 17 rebounds for the series, Duncan usually wins when he can do that. Kobe turned in a Jordan like series. 29 points a game on elite efficiency. 39 points on elimination game(Jordan like). The Spurs defense completely shut down and overwhelmed Lebron and Cleveland offense in the finals. The very next year Kobeís isolation offense got them back for James and Kobe overwhelmed the Spurs defense.

Jordan is the only other guy that I can think of that beats that version of Duncan and the Spurs in 5. Even then, Jordan beating this Spurs team would of been one of Jordanís greatest achievements.

Bostonjorge
10-25-2017, 06:06 PM
KG in my opinion would of dominated Russell if they played each other.

KG came into the league and played the older true big man role. Post game and passing out the post. Protected the rim and could step out if they really needed him to back then. Russell donít have height, speed or strength over KG. Russell defense is arguably better but KG was still elite. KG offense was elite and beyond Russellís.

Now because of Rings I wouldnít argue KG over Russell in All Time rankings but I think KG is still a better player and more impacts the game more.

Dade County
10-25-2017, 06:32 PM
Can you Add Wade to the list of options, please.

FlashBolt
10-26-2017, 01:07 AM
Wade is like barely top 20.. and that's generous. C'mon, you guys just need to stop. KG>Wade easily and it's not even close. Wade's longevity and durability is rather short since he came into this league with more than a few years in college and then injuries really cramped him up. KG has been a defensive monster for decades while being insanely good for much longer than Wade. I'll wait to see where this list goes further but I'm pretty sure I had Wade somewhere in the 18-22nd spot.

leprechaun5
10-26-2017, 03:10 AM
Dirk could make you a top offense with average offense talent around him. Did KG make you a top rebounding team, top defensive team, top passing team?

KG was the main reason that a team from 24 wins went to 66 in just one year. He was DPOY and the best defender in the league by a wide margin. Boston were the second best defensive team in the league with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen on the starting lineup (who as we know never cared to play any D until they teamed up with KG). KG is a top 5 defender ever and one of the better defensive rebounders to ever play. His passing skills for big men are also very high on the list. Injury to his knee in 2009 and he was never the same again but i'd take Peak KG before any PF ever and I'm not the only one with this opinion.

thegerman
10-26-2017, 06:07 AM
Dirk is better cause great offense beats good defense, KG is a a great Defender but Pierce and allen scored at the end of close games, dirk beat Miami on his own in the fourth quarter, despite struggling from the field in game 6

ewing
10-26-2017, 08:02 AM
KG was the main reason that a team from 24 wins went to 66 in just one year. He was DPOY and the best defender in the league by a wide margin. Boston were the second best defensive team in the league with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen on the starting lineup (who as we know never cared to play any D until they teamed up with KG). KG is a top 5 defender ever and one of the better defensive rebounders to ever play. His passing skills for big men are also very high on the list. Injury to his knee in 2009 and he was never the same again but i'd take Peak KG before any PF ever and I'm not the only one with this opinion.



I believe humanoid reptilians run the gov't and I'm not the only one with this opinion. Btw the Celtic had a huge roaster overhaul that season so while KG was a main reason acting like he took a 24 win team and made them a 66 win team is totally disingenuous

ewing
10-26-2017, 08:07 AM
Dirk is better cause great offense beats good defense, KG is a a great Defender but Pierce and allen scored at the end of close games, dirk beat Miami on his own in the fourth quarter, despite struggling from the field in game 6

I think you got it right the first time. KG wasn't a "great defender" he was a really good one. Dirk was a great offensive player

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 10:23 AM
KG was Wades *****. Dunked on his *** like 3 times, put him in the spin cycle on a euro having KG like "where the **** did Wade go", truck sticked KG after his dirty shot on I believe Mike Miller, got the and 1 on him fell to the ground and KG tried to stare him down then Wade stands up staring KG down face to face and KG doesn't need do ****. Probably had flashbacks of that one player that rocked him in his jaw. He's Wades *****.

Wade > KG, Dirk, West, Drexler, Barkley, Ewing,

Chronz
10-26-2017, 01:00 PM
Kobe behind magic and bird? Why tho, I thought longevity was king for Duncan and his role player years but Kobe doesn't get similar treatment. Sad!

Hawkeye15
10-26-2017, 02:33 PM
Kobe behind magic and bird? Why tho, I thought longevity was king for Duncan and his role player years but Kobe doesn't get similar treatment. Sad!

yeah, I have Kobe in the same tier with Bird (and Magic might be there too), so I won't argue it really. That being said, I take Kobe's career over Bird's. Even if Bird was the better player when both were at their peaks.

KnicksorBust
10-26-2017, 02:44 PM
His playoff per 36s are 22.4 and 8.8 RPG. His regular season per 36 are 22.4 and 8.2.

KG's reg season per 36 was 18.6/10.5. His playoffs per 36 were 17.7 and 10.5. If you just go by his MIN years (since he hirt his knee in BOS year 2 and was never the same) he was 19.1/10.7 per 36 in reg season and 18.9/11,3 in the postseason.

Dirk didn't really play any better, he just played more. He was fortunate enough to be on better teams where he could be left at a normal minute workload and then come playoff time the extended minutes made it look like he played more. KG through his MIN years was on worse teams so he was already up at playoff per game minutes out of necessity. So he doesn't get that bump in his per game numbers from the extended minutes the way Dirk did.

I've actually done a breakdown on KG's playoff runs before on PSD. He was a choke artist in Minnesota. In fact even in Boston he almost choked in the Cavs series the year they won the title. Luckily, Paul Pierce saved them in Game 7. Look, I've lived through KG's career. I saw it first hand. I gave him all the credit in the world for his success. Tremendously talented player on both ends of the floor. I can totally buy into the argument that KG was a better player than Dirk. But the per 36 stuff doesn't change the fact that for most of his career he got worse in the biggest moments of the season. That is a small mark against a legendary career. That's why Moses and Oscar need to go before he gets added.

mightybosstone
10-26-2017, 04:48 PM
No. 11 is perfect for Kobe. This is the exact spot I have him in my own all-time rankings. You could make a case for him at 9 or 10, but I think guys like Hakeem, Bird, Magic and Russell have stronger resumes in an all-time conversation than Kobe.

mightybosstone
10-26-2017, 04:50 PM
Also, why are Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone and John Stockton even on this list? Those guys shouldn't be getting votes anywhere close to the top 15. David Robinson and KG absolutely should go ahead of those guys and should be on the ballot at this point. Wade belongs on this list as well, and I would certainly rank him ahead of those three.

Hawkeye15
10-27-2017, 02:02 PM
Also, why are Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone and John Stockton even on this list? Those guys shouldn't be getting votes anywhere close to the top 15. David Robinson and KG absolutely should go ahead of those guys and should be on the ballot at this point. Wade belongs on this list as well, and I would certainly rank him ahead of those three.

before those 3 you listed, we have:

Barkley
Moses
D-Rob
Garnett
Erving
West
Robertson
Dirk

as for Wade, your Jazz hating glasses just went on haha. Cmon

FlashBolt
10-27-2017, 08:35 PM
I feel like Bird gets overrated. He was a great player but failed in the playoffs more than I can count and also, his injuries just really can't be ignored. Kobe just doesn't get enough credit for his longevity. Won more than Bird as well. Not really sure how Duncan gets above Shaq if we aren't willing to secede that Kobe should be over Bird. Magic, too. How is Kobe not ahead of Magic?

JAZZNC
10-28-2017, 10:33 PM
before those 3 you listed, we have:

Barkley
Moses
D-Rob
Garnett
Erving
West
Robertson
Dirk

as for Wade, your Jazz hating glasses just went on haha. Cmon

He can't have a realistic conversation regarding the Jazz, especially Malone. But I'm the same with a few players, KG and Pippen to name a couple.

valade16
10-29-2017, 01:20 PM
I feel like Bird gets overrated. He was a great player but failed in the playoffs more than I can count and also, his injuries just really can't be ignored. Kobe just doesn't get enough credit for his longevity. Won more than Bird as well. Not really sure how Duncan gets above Shaq if we aren't willing to secede that Kobe should be over Bird. Magic, too. How is Kobe not ahead of Magic?

What do you mean failed in the playoffs more than you can count? In 12 seasons he went to the Finals 5 times and the ECF 8 times. He went to the ECF every season from his rookie year to the year he got hurt except 1 season. 4

Heck, before his injury the only teams his Celtics lost to in the playoffs were the 76ers, Bucks, Lakers and Pistons. 3 of those teams won titles and the other was also very good. Where are his multitude of playoff failures?

Vinny642
10-29-2017, 02:27 PM
Ad....?

ewing
10-29-2017, 02:50 PM
What do you mean failed in the playoffs more than you can count? In 12 seasons he went to the Finals 5 times and the ECF 8 times. He went to the ECF every season from his rookie year to the year he got hurt except 1 season. 4

Heck, before his injury the only teams his Celtics lost to in the playoffs were the 76ers, Bucks, Lakers and Pistons. 3 of those teams won titles and the other was also very good. Where are his multitude of playoff failures?

Heís not very good at counting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hawkeye15
10-30-2017, 12:02 PM
He can't have a realistic conversation regarding the Jazz, especially Malone. But I'm the same with a few players, KG and Pippen to name a couple.

I never, for the life of me, get why Rockets fans hate the Jazz so much. It never made sense to me. I get it, the Jazz were a pain in the butt opponent in the mid 2000's. But it still doesn't make sense to me.

YAALREADYKNO
10-30-2017, 02:26 PM
Dirk could make you a top offense with average offense talent around him. Did KG make you a top rebounding team, top defensive team, top passing team?

This. After Nash and Finley left dude was playing with josh Howard and Jason Terry as his two best players. Dirk took desagana diop and Erik dampier to the finals. Nuff said

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:22 PM
This. After Nash and Finley left dude was playing with josh Howard and Jason Terry as his two best players. Dirk took desagana diop and Erik dampier to the finals. Nuff said

Jason Terry might be one of the most underrated players of the 2000's, though. I mean, there weren't many guys shooting that effective at the three pointer during his time at such a volume. In 2006 and 2011, you could make a case JET was the better performer for the Mavs than Dirk.. his efficiency certainly was higher. Dirk's a beast but Terry was an absolute sniper.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:23 PM
What do you mean failed in the playoffs more than you can count? In 12 seasons he went to the Finals 5 times and the ECF 8 times. He went to the ECF every season from his rookie year to the year he got hurt except 1 season. 4

Heck, before his injury the only teams his Celtics lost to in the playoffs were the 76ers, Bucks, Lakers and Pistons. 3 of those teams won titles and the other was also very good. Where are his multitude of playoff failures?

Do we need to go over his efficiency in some horrible games?

valade16
10-31-2017, 03:27 PM
Do we need to go over his efficiency in some horrible games?

Ok, but clearly the good far overshadowed the bad. He is considered one of, if not, the most clutch player of all-time. If you really want to try and argue he didn't step up when it matters, go ahead and try lol

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:32 PM
Ok, but clearly the good far overshadowed the bad. He is considered one of, if not, the most clutch player of all-time. If you really want to try and argue he didn't step up when it matters, go ahead and try lol

Except, he's had more bads than he should have for a top ten player. I never said he wasn't clutch but many top ten players would have been crucified for some of the games Larry had.

valade16
10-31-2017, 06:03 PM
Except, he's had more bads than he should have for a top ten player. I never said he wasn't clutch but many top ten players would have been crucified for some of the games Larry had.

What games are we talking about here?

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 06:13 PM
What games are we talking about here?

I mean, didn't you already acknowledge them in the previous post?

Hawkeye15
11-01-2017, 11:28 AM
Ok, but clearly the good far overshadowed the bad. He is considered one of, if not, the most clutch player of all-time. If you really want to try and argue he didn't step up when it matters, go ahead and try lol

Bird did have some series where he didn't play well by his standards, but no more so than a lot of other all timers. He wasn't Jordan, a career overachiever, but he was FAR from Malone, a career underachiever come playoff time for example.

valade16
11-01-2017, 11:28 AM
I mean, didn't you already acknowledge them in the previous post?

I acknowledged he must have had some bad games, nobody can literally be perfect. I'm wondering what specific games we are talking about because usually I find that there is contextual information that explains why players don't get crapped on for such games. Things like they were a rookie, it was after an injury, he played much better the next game and/or won the series with a better game later. Things like that.

Hawkeye15
11-01-2017, 11:30 AM
I acknowledged he must have had some bad games, nobody can literally be perfect. I'm wondering what specific games we are talking about because usually I find that there is contextual information that explains why players don't get crapped on for such games. Things like they were a rookie, it was after an injury, he played much better the next game and/or won the series with a better game later. Things like that.

Bird's back was partially responsible. Look at his numbers against Philly in 82', and 83' for an example. Not so bueno...

valade16
11-01-2017, 12:18 PM
Bird's back was partially responsible. Look at his numbers against Philly in 82', and 83' for an example. Not so bueno...

I'm assuming you mean the Bucks in 83 since they Celtics didn't play the 76ers in 83.

Well I imagine the reason he was given a pass in 82 for his sub-par play vs. the 76ers was that he led the Celtics to the title in 81 and beat those very same 76ers in the ECF.

As for the 83 series, Bird was playing with a dislocated finger (and actually only played 3 games in the series) and, from what I've read, there was a lot of friction between the team and the HC Bill Fitch, which is why he was fired and replaced with KC Jones. Also the very next year the Celtics beat the Bucks enroute to the Finals with Bird averaging 27/10/6 with a 60% TS.

mightybosstone
11-02-2017, 12:40 PM
He can't have a realistic conversation regarding the Jazz, especially Malone. But I'm the same with a few players, KG and Pippen to name a couple.

Peak Wade is simply a much better basketball player than Malone or Stockton, and he certainly proved himself to be the superior postseason performer. I can see how someone could make a case for those guys over Wade, but they'd have to do it based on regular season performance and longevity, which I simply don't value as much as peak peformance or postseason prowess.

And as much as I hate the Jazz, historically, I can still have a (mostly) honest conversation about them in an all-time discussion. I'd still put Stockton and Malone in my top 5 at their respective positions. But there's other guys in that top 20-25 discussion who I just like more.

KnicksorBust
11-02-2017, 02:42 PM
He can't have a realistic conversation regarding the Jazz, especially Malone. But I'm the same with a few players, KG and Pippen to name a couple.

Peak Wade is simply a much better basketball player than Malone or Stockton, and he certainly proved himself to be the superior postseason performer. I can see how someone could make a case for those guys over Wade, but they'd have to do it based on regular season performance and longevity, which I simply don't value as much as peak peformance or postseason prowess.

And as much as I hate the Jazz, historically, I can still have a (mostly) honest conversation about them in an all-time discussion. I'd still put Stockton and Malone in my top 5 at their respective positions. But there's other guys in that top 20-25 discussion who I just like more.

Yeah I dont think MBT is biased here. His criteria are just different than yours. You rank Walton higher than most too?

mightybosstone
11-02-2017, 04:12 PM
Yeah I dont think MBT is biased here. His criteria are just different than yours. You rank Walton higher than most too?

Me? Yeah, I'd probably put Walton in my top 30, or he's at least in the conversation. Peak Walton was a monster. How many guys can say they won MVP, a ring and Finals MVP in a two-year stretch?