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View Full Version : DMC and AD playing as amazing as possible: still losing.



JasonJohnHorn
10-21-2017, 07:36 PM
Game one, DMC and AD combined for a stellar 61 points, 28 boards, and 8 blocks.

FG% a little low, yes... but they both drew lots of fouls (25 FT combined).

They lost comfortably to the Grizz.

Game two: DMC AD combined for an even more impressive 69 points on a much higher FG%. Fewer fouls, but still 18 TF combined. 26 boards, 9 assists, and a block (though 10 turnovers). They still lost. And even though they shot high FG% and their team shot a higher 3pt% than the Warriors.


It is early in the seasons, yes, but these guys seems be playing about as well as you can expect them to, and still aren't winning games.

Now... the first game, they didn't get a lot of assists, and shot poorly, and the second game, they got a lot of turnovers. But those are stellar lines. Shooting better would have won them the first game, and taking care of the ball would have won them the second. But these stat lines are stellar.


If they can win with the two of them scoring over 60 a game and pulling in over a dozen rebounds each combined, I'm not sure what it's going to take.

Thoughts?

Scoots
10-21-2017, 07:55 PM
There are questions about those 2 guys but the issue isn't them, they've never had a team around them.

valade16
10-21-2017, 08:13 PM
Jrue Holiday has not played well, if he steps up as a viable third option they'll improve, but they need to reduce their turnovers. Their supporting cast is unlikely to continue playing so bad but they are unlikely to continue producing so much as well.

tp13baby
10-21-2017, 08:19 PM
They need Jrue to step up but itís okay cause Jameer Nelson is going to carry them

flea
10-21-2017, 08:35 PM
Neither is that good defensively, and Cousins is just bad. That's the major problem as both are very good, if not elite, offensive players. Cousins is also boneheaded and doesn't seem to grasp the detrimental effects of his decisionmaking - such as last night on one possession where he led in transition and took his man off the dribble above the 3 point line and turned the ball over.

Neither one has established themself as a guy you can dump the ball into and neither one is good defensively. You already have an uphill battle in the NBA if your interior defense isn't at least "good." With the role players around them they would both need to be elite offensively for the team to be good. As is they're just average.

KingPosey
10-21-2017, 09:02 PM
Iím not sure if it will work regardless, but In their defense that team around them is not constructed properly, and beyond even that, their supporting cast sucks.

Itís not like theyíre loaded with championship talent but fit is suspect.

Aust
10-21-2017, 10:57 PM
I worry that the losses keep piling up and the org decides to cut their losses and eventually trade Cousins for someone like Steven Adams making PG more likely to stay in OKC.

Raps18-19 Champ
10-21-2017, 11:06 PM
Jrue not playing well and no one else scoring. Tony Allen should be starting though. Not sure why they cut Jordan Crawford.

Lakers + Giants
10-21-2017, 11:35 PM
Lakers bout to torch em tomorrow too. Lets go.

Ariza's Better
10-21-2017, 11:46 PM
The problem with the pelicans is their HC is bad, their supporting cast is bad, their GM is bad and their training staff is bad. Sucks that the AD and Cousins pairing is being wasted.

cmellofan15
10-21-2017, 11:47 PM
The warriors have also lost two games this season..maybe the steph-durant thing isnít working out either...:shrug:

IndyRealist
10-22-2017, 12:11 AM
Iím not sure if it will work regardless, but In their defense that team around them is not constructed properly, and beyond even that, their supporting cast sucks.

Itís not like theyíre loaded with championship talent but fit is suspect.

I'm not sure in this day and age you CAN construct a team properly around those two. They are individually playing pretty well, but it just sucks the life out of the rest of the team.

LOb0
10-22-2017, 01:31 AM
The problem with the pelicans is their HC is bad, their supporting cast is bad, their GM is bad and their training staff is bad. Sucks that the AD and Cousins pairing is being wasted.

This. Everything outside of those two is horrible.

Blitzbolt
10-22-2017, 02:06 AM
I saw both of their games their scrub players are just awful period they do nothing on defense or offense.

Jeffy25
10-22-2017, 02:15 AM
You have two offensive minded centers in a league that doesn't care about that and offense isn't created that way any longer.

It's also only 2 games, but it doesn't matter. You would win more with three 3 point shooters and two defensive anchors down low. Big men don't need to score 30 a game. They need to defend.


you also have no other support in that organization. That doesn't help things.

Heediot
10-22-2017, 08:37 AM
AD is a bit over-rated. Yeah he puts up efficient stats but does the way he play the game help make his teammates better? On defense yeah he's a good shot blocker and is improving with his reads, but he is still behind a good deal to make the team better on that end. He doesn't anticipate and forecast the defender as well as he should. His communication and ability to anchor the defense is lacking too. On offense, he is very efficient but his inability to think a few steps ahead of the defense is lacking and so does his playmaking. Yeah he'll find ways to score for himself but in a league dominated by ball-handlers, and ball handlers setting up shooters he's just another volume scorer on offense.

Cousins is another volume scorer as well, who struggles on D. He is more of a playmaker vs. AD, But with two guys and their massive usage, the assist % ratio with the usage doesn't equate to these guys doing enough besides scoring on that end. Defensively the combo is probably one the lower end of interior defense combos in the league.

There's always an excuse for AD, but if your so highly regarded at this point in his career he should be carrying junk to the playoffs. Yeah he doesn't have a nicely constructed team, but he doesn't do his part in maximizing his teammates talents. It seems to me aside from Rhyno, everyone that plays with AD seem to do better elsewhere.

KingPosey
10-22-2017, 08:41 AM
I'm not sure in this day and age you CAN construct a team properly around those two. They are individually playing pretty well, but it just sucks the life out of the rest of the team.

I donít agree with that necessarily. Just because the league has trended a certain way doesnít ever mean thereís only one way to win. You just have to be good enough at what you do. That roster sucks and isnít even built to play around the two bigs.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-22-2017, 08:51 AM
I'd try and trade both AD and Cousins for a haul. Time to tank.

cmellofan15
10-22-2017, 09:32 AM
I'd try and trade both AD and Cousins for a haul. Time to tank.

they could get a LOT for those dudes

ewing
10-22-2017, 10:09 AM
Maybe they are not as amazing as you think

j-bay
10-22-2017, 10:24 AM
I worry that the losses keep piling up and the org decides to cut their losses and eventually trade Cousins for someone like Steven Adams making PG more likely to stay in OKC.

Even if they don't get him, Wall is going to convince his buddy to hit Free Agency to hear what the Wizards say.

FlashBolt
10-22-2017, 11:12 AM
You have two offensive minded centers in a league that doesn't care about that and offense isn't created that way any longer.

It's also only 2 games, but it doesn't matter. You would win more with three 3 point shooters and two defensive anchors down low. Big men don't need to score 30 a game. They need to defend.


you also have no other support in that organization. That doesn't help things.

I get what you're saying but you gotta understand, AD+Cousins feel they have to take over every game because the rest of the guys don't produce results. Jrue Holiday is garbage and they gave him the contract out of goodwill because Jrue's wife had brain cancer or something. That's literally the only explanation. He's a terrible guard who is proving that if you are somewhat competent, you can be rich and rob a team blind. Rondo needs to get back ASAP and get some easy buckets going for the team because Jrue doesn't do any of that. They will regret signing him. The man cares more about his wife and family exponentially more than winning so good luck getting the guy to try and improve. No shooters around, no scorers elsewhere.. this team blows because you have two guys doing everything while the rest of the team can't even defend or make a damn three.

FlashBolt
10-22-2017, 11:16 AM
AD is a bit over-rated. Yeah he puts up efficient stats but does the way he play the game help make his teammates better? On defense yeah he's a good shot blocker and is improving with his reads, but he is still behind a good deal to make the team better on that end. He doesn't anticipate and forecast the defender as well as he should. His communication and ability to anchor the defense is lacking too. On offense, he is very efficient but his inability to think a few steps ahead of the defense is lacking and so does his playmaking. Yeah he'll find ways to score for himself but in a league dominated by ball-handlers, and ball handlers setting up shooters he's just another volume scorer on offense.

Cousins is another volume scorer as well, who struggles on D. He is more of a playmaker vs. AD, But with two guys and their massive usage, the assist % ratio with the usage doesn't equate to these guys doing enough besides scoring on that end. Defensively the combo is probably one the lower end of interior defense combos in the league.

There's always an excuse for AD, but if your so highly regarded at this point in his career he should be carrying junk to the playoffs. Yeah he doesn't have a nicely constructed team, but he doesn't do his part in maximizing his teammates talents. It seems to me aside from Rhyno, everyone that plays with AD seem to do better elsewhere.

You can't carry that much junk into the WC playoffs. AD literally did everything. You can't expect your PF to make plays for everyone.. and you sure as hell can't force them to make threes. That's what the PG is there for and no blame is being put on Jrue Holiday - who makes MORE than Anthony Davis. I mean, they ranked 20th in 3P% - meaning, they have way too many guys who can't shoot threes trying to. GM and coach is incompetent. Gentry has never done anything as a coach.. why is he still employed? They need to surround the team with guys who can shoot and also, play defense. Tony Allen is a beast defender but he doesn't score at all. I'm not sure why you're just singling out AD. Could his defense improve? Yeah, but not when the guy has to score, rebound, defend, and lead his team all at the same time. When has a PF gotten that much responsibility on such a bad team? Like AD on the Spurs would look Godly while winning every game.

Heediot
10-22-2017, 11:22 AM
I get what you're saying but you gotta understand, AD+Cousins feel they have to take over every game because the rest of the guys don't produce results. Jrue Holiday is garbage and they gave him the contract out of goodwill because Jrue's wife had brain cancer or something. That's literally the only explanation. He's a terrible guard who is proving that if you are somewhat competent, you can be rich and rob a team blind. Rondo needs to get back ASAP and get some easy buckets going for the team because Jrue doesn't do any of that. They will regret signing him. The man cares more about his wife and family exponentially more than winning so good luck getting the guy to try and improve. No shooters around, no scorers elsewhere.. this team blows because you have two guys doing everything while the rest of the team can't even defend or make a damn three.

I don't buy it. Buddy Hield is a more then respectable 3 point shooter and the guy got a bit better better once he leaves the pelicans. Eric Gordon has returned to his early scoring days in Houston once he left the pelicans. Tyreke is looking better with the small sample in Memphis. Asik played better before he joined the Pelicans. AD isn't the type to make your teammates better. He's the C version of Kyrie and Melo, just more efficient. He can put a team over the top but he may not be the guy you build a top offense/defense around.

You can build a team that can compete and grind with Gobert and Gasol. You can build one of the better offenses with Jokic. At least these kind of teams are showing they can compete or have promise. AD is getting better on D, but he's still a long way before he can anchor a top defense. His lack of play-making in this new era of pace and space limits his effective in being the focal point of a top offense. Jokic didn't even have a top 50 usage percentage last year, but his play making and ability to facilitate the offense helps bring out the best in his mates. Just my take.

I feel like Ad is one of the best individual players in the league, which should count for something. I just feel like he doesn't have the mind/feel to know his team strengths and weaknesses and make the most of what he has around him. A team like Memphis always finds a way to win doing the small and subtle things. Gasol and Conley know how to play with what they have. I don't feel the same way with AD. He's just the type of player where you give him the bal and hopes he scores, which he does a very good/great job at.

GiantsSwaGG
10-22-2017, 11:29 AM
I told you guys these guys arenít a good fit

Heediot
10-22-2017, 11:33 AM
You can't carry that much junk into the WC playoffs. AD literally did everything. You can't expect your PF to make plays for everyone.. and you sure as hell can't force them to make threes. That's what the PG is there for and no blame is being put on Jrue Holiday - who makes MORE than Anthony Davis. I mean, they ranked 20th in 3P% - meaning, they have way too many guys who can't shoot threes trying to. GM and coach is incompetent. Gentry has never done anything as a coach.. why is he still employed? They need to surround the team with guys who can shoot and also, play defense. Tony Allen is a beast defender but he doesn't score at all. I'm not sure why you're just singling out AD. Could his defense improve? Yeah, but not when the guy has to score, rebound, defend, and lead his team all at the same time. When has a PF gotten that much responsibility on such a bad team? Like AD on the Spurs would look Godly while winning every game.

Look at Harden with Jlin and Asik, dude made it to the playoffs in a tough western conference, maybe not as tough as now but it was still a superior conference to the east back then. Just compare how guys play with Harden and how guys play with Davis. He struggles to anticipate as well as the guys who facilitate the better offenses.

I'll give him some excuse as his team is poorly constructed. I just don't see him as a focal point to a top defense or offense because his iq/feel is lacking/developing.

IndyRealist
10-22-2017, 11:41 AM
I donít agree with that necessarily. Just because the league has trended a certain way doesnít ever mean thereís only one way to win. You just have to be good enough at what you do. That roster sucks and isnít even built to play around the two bigs.

It's not a question of either individually, it's a question of having both on the court at the same time. If you put AD on the Spurs that's a championship. But AD and Cousins try to occupy the same space, they clog the lane, and there's no way to hide both of them on PnR. One of them is going to get caught out on Westbrook, Harden, etc. They don't create enough spacing, so defenders can just stay home on the perimeter players. In the 90's you could force spacing because the defense couldn't zone. And no one is scared of either of them protecting the paint even with Cousins getting some swats in.

You can build around AD or Cousins, but you can't build around Davis AND Cousins imo.

smith&wesson
10-22-2017, 12:23 PM
The issue with the pelicans is that they are about 2 and a half players deep. Rondo def would have helped but that team just doesn't have enough pieces on the perimeter to compliment their star front court.

smith&wesson
10-22-2017, 12:29 PM
Look at Harden with Jlin and Asik, dude made it to the playoffs in a tough western conference, maybe not as tough as now but it was still a superior conference to the east back then. Just compare how guys play with Harden and how guys play with Davis. He struggles to anticipate as well as the guys who facilitate the better offenses.

I'll give him some excuse as his team is poorly constructed. I just don't see him as a focal point to a top defense or offense because his iq/feel is lacking/developing.

youre way off ... Harden has had way waaaaayyyyyy more help than AD has ever had. Also they are completely different players... don't see the comparison. I actually think they would be a perfect duo and compliment to one another.

Heediot
10-22-2017, 12:42 PM
youre way off ... Harden has had way waaaaayyyyyy more help than AD has ever had. Also they are completely different players... don't see the comparison. I actually think they would be a perfect duo and compliment to one another.

The league is catered to ball handlers, so If your a high usage player like Davis you need to find ways to impact the game more besides scoring on offense. My problem with Davis is his feel/anticipation and iq on offense is lacking. He doesn't have to rack up assists but his anticipation of double teams are pretty slow. It's about playing the game a step ahead of the opposition Look at Jokic for example his usage rate is like 51st in the league and his time of possession is at 2.2, his average time with the ball is under two seconds, but he arguably does the most with the touches he gets on offense. Davis is more like a Kyrie/Melo but more efficient and better on defense. He's the type of guy that will put you over, but if he is the focal point he might not make his team mates better. Why does Hield/Gordon/Asik/Tyreke play better without Davis? Davis is a good INDIVIDUAL player, that may not always mean he can make his teammates better, that's my beef with him. The one guy that fared well with him was Rhyno.

Edit: I don't think Harden had more help his first year in Houston his starting lineup was Lin-Parsons-Insert PF-Asik. I just think Harden is more effective outside of just scoring when he has the ball in his hands. I bet the over-under that year before the season for Houston compared to the Pelicans this year favors NO.

Houston O/U Harden first year in Houston = 30.5, Pelicans this year = 40.5. Houston beat the line by 14-15. We'll see how the pelicans fare.

LOb0
10-22-2017, 05:42 PM
I'd try and trade both AD and Cousins for a haul. Time to tank.

You know what, they're actually in a really good position. They could take the Celtics to the cleaners for AD and get a nice haul for Boogie.

They'd be set for the future. If they could get Jaylen, 3 first round picks and cap fodder for AD, that's a pretty nice deal. I'm not sure I'd trade both Tatum and Jaylen for him however.

Raidaz4Life
10-22-2017, 08:31 PM
You know what, they're actually in a really good position. They could take the Celtics to the cleaners for AD and get a nice haul for Boogie.

They'd be set for the future. If they could get Jaylen, 3 first round picks and cap fodder for AD, that's a pretty nice deal. I'm not sure I'd trade both Tatum and Jaylen for him however.

you're crazy if you wouldn't trade Tatum and Brown for AD.

cmellofan15
10-22-2017, 09:16 PM
It would be pretty crazy if they traded AD to Boston and Boogie to the Cavs. They could get pretty much all of the assets the Celtics were stockpiling the last few years lol

j-bay
10-22-2017, 09:42 PM
It would be pretty crazy if they traded AD to Boston and Boogie to the Cavs. They could get pretty much all of the assets the Celtics were stockpiling the last few years lol

I wouldn't trade toi much for Cousins unless i knew he was staying. In an age where guys like to team up together keep an eye on Wall and Cousins. I know i say that a lot but i think its going to happen. Wall wants to add a star and Gortat is declining.

IndyRealist
10-22-2017, 10:28 PM
I wouldn't trade toi much for Cousins unless i knew he was staying. In an age where guys like to team up together keep an eye on Wall and Cousins. I know i say that a lot but i think its going to happen. Wall wants to add a star and Gortat is declining.

Gortat and Mahimni both look good early. Cleveland's in an arms race with the top West teams. I doubt they pass if it's just assets and not rotation players.

j-bay
10-22-2017, 11:29 PM
Gortat and Mahimni both look good early. Cleveland's in an arms race with the top West teams. I doubt they pass if it's just assets and not rotation players.

I meant at FA for Washington. Refering to cmello, i said if you trade for Cousins you got to be careful what you give up if Demarcus decides if he wants to go to Washington or if he wants to go somewhere else. He mentioned trading that Bklyn pick.

Vee-Rex
10-23-2017, 12:05 AM
AD is getting to be underrated.

LOb0
10-23-2017, 12:31 AM
you're crazy if you wouldn't trade Tatum and Brown for AD.

Have you seen Brown lately? Brown, Tatum and first rounders would be an overpay.

Vee-Rex
10-23-2017, 11:01 AM
Have you seen Brown lately? Brown, Tatum and first rounders would be an overpay.

Have you seen AD lately?

Obviously you try to acquire him for as little as possible but if the Pelicans say they're willing to listen to offers that include Tatum and Brown you better be prepared to change your entire plan for the future if you can get AD.

hugepatsfan
10-23-2017, 11:16 AM
Anthony Davis shoots 55% from inside the 3 point line. Cousins shoots 51%. If you're going to take such a high volume of 2 point shots in today's game you need to shoot it on a higher percentage than that. When so many teams can make it rain 3s if you're gonna try to match them with 2s you need to shoot a much higher percentage than that. You gotta be like Shaq to do that and be efficient enough to match all the 3s.

Also, as PF/C, they are comparatively less adept at creating for others compared to their elite player counterparts are guard and wing spots.

Throw those in with a weak supporting cast and I'm not all that surprised they aren't very good as a team.

europagnpilgrim
10-23-2017, 11:30 AM
They lack wing scorers and defenders, also they have no true franchise backcourt type player, overpaid for Holiday badly and signed Rondo/Nelson for more than likely just this season, if I were the Pelicans I would have traded Cousins to Cavs for Irving and that would at least give me a balance all star duo to build around which is pretty much how you start building from a on court standpoint, but first and foremost they need to bring in a savvy GM as well as a new coach, I would do similar to what Boston did and bring in a energetic/knowledgeable legit college coach, I would hit up Nova/Texas or something of that thinking to see if I can get them to at least bite on taking the gig

Vee-Rex
10-23-2017, 11:51 AM
The Pelicans aren't a strong team SOLELY because they have absolutely no one else besides Cousins and AD. NO ONE. Holiday has been playing like trash and their role-players suck.

Not to mention playing the Grizzlies on the road and then playing the Warriors isn't exactly a super easy schedule.

Any attempt to blame their woes on either AD or Cousins is absurd. Are they perfect players? No, of course not. But them being imperfect is not the reason they're losing - it's the trash they're surrounded by.

Vee-Rex
10-23-2017, 11:53 AM
Anthony Davis shoots 55% from inside the 3 point line. Cousins shoots 51%. If you're going to take such a high volume of 2 point shots in today's game you need to shoot it on a higher percentage than that. When so many teams can make it rain 3s if you're gonna try to match them with 2s you need to shoot a much higher percentage than that. You gotta be like Shaq to do that and be efficient enough to match all the 3s.

Also, as PF/C, they are comparatively less adept at creating for others compared to their elite player counterparts are guard and wing spots.

Throw those in with a weak supporting cast and I'm not all that surprised they aren't very good as a team.

AD in particular is scoring 31 points on 20 shots. Top that off with 17 rebounds a game.

What more could you ask for? He's shooting 45% from 3 on 3.7 attempts per game (more attempts than Bird averaged in his career)

Obviously that's only after 3 games and the numbers will change, but man I am shocked at how much criticism AD has been getting in multiple threads. What more do people want?

lol, please
10-23-2017, 11:58 AM
AD in particular is scoring 31 points on 20 shots. Top that off with 17 rebounds a game.

What more could you ask for? He's shooting 45% from 3 on 3.7 attempts per game (more attempts than Bird averaged in his career)

Obviously that's only after 3 games and the numbers will change, but man I am shocked at how much criticism AD has been getting in multiple threads. What more do people want?

Good post.

People are stupid. All that is holding AD back is his supporting cast. That's the nature of the NBA, not every star can be on a stacked team, not every star wins or goes on deep playoff runs every year. AD has been playing his heart out since he's been in this league, the lack of Pelicans success isn't on him.

IndyRealist
10-23-2017, 12:08 PM
AD in particular is scoring 31 points on 20 shots. Top that off with 17 rebounds a game.

What more could you ask for? He's shooting 45% from 3 on 3.7 attempts per game (more attempts than Bird averaged in his career)

Obviously that's only after 3 games and the numbers will change, but man I am shocked at how much criticism AD has been getting in multiple threads. What more do people want?

Bird had 4 seasons where he took 22 or less 3s all year. Different era, not really comparable.

However, what Davis is doing is getting to the line. A lot. That translates to a 63% TS, which is absurd Durant level efficiency. No one should be harping on his offense at all with his volume.

hugepatsfan
10-23-2017, 12:14 PM
AD in particular is scoring 31 points on 20 shots. Top that off with 17 rebounds a game.

What more could you ask for? He's shooting 45% from 3 on 3.7 attempts per game (more attempts than Bird averaged in his career)

Obviously that's only after 3 games and the numbers will change, but man I am shocked at how much criticism AD has been getting in multiple threads. What more do people want?

There's nothing more he could be doing. That's not my point. I was just explaining why his volume isn't translating to wins. They need a better supporting cast to where they don't need to rely on someone that so predominantly plays inside the arc in relation to his total shots while also having less playmaking ability than typical high volume scores (by virtue of being a big rather than a guard/wing). And the fact that their top supporting player is the same type of guy only compounds the issue

A team that utilizes AD/Cousins for as much offense as they do simply won't win. It's not efficient enough to rely on those guys as much they do. There's really nothing more AD in particular could do to play better but I'm just pointing out that for as impressive as his individual efforts and numbers are, his skill set simply won't translate to wins if he's used at that volume. Unless him and Cousins are gonna translate to Shaq inside and shoot 65% it's not gonna work with them playing at such volume. Like you said in your other post:

"Any attempt to blame their woes on either AD or Cousins is absurd. Are they perfect players? No, of course not. But them being imperfect is not the reason they're losing - it's the trash they're surrounded by."

Realistically, expecting them to be 65% shooters inside like Shaq isn't a fair expectation at all. So the path to improve is more realistically in the rest of the roster. But if they could improve to that level of scoring efficiency inside then it could work for them IMO. Again, I'm not saying that's a fair expectation, just explaining why their massive volume numbers aren't translating to wins despite that weak cast, IMO. That's why over their careers their weak cast has kept them out of the playoffs for the most part rather than in as a low seed as has been the case for guys like PG, Butler, etc.

Storch
10-23-2017, 12:19 PM
Just come to the lakers ad and dmc!

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-23-2017, 12:28 PM
I wouldn't trade toi much for Cousins unless i knew he was staying. In an age where guys like to team up together keep an eye on Wall and Cousins. I know i say that a lot but i think its going to happen. Wall wants to add a star and Gortat is declining.

Cousins for Beal?

WaDe03
10-23-2017, 12:41 PM
Cousins for Beal?

He said he wouldn't want to trade too much, not that he would trade an all star lol.

IndyRealist
10-23-2017, 01:35 PM
Interestingly, not once did Shaq hit 63% TS for a season. While his FG% was absurdly high, his FT% brought him down. You can't send AD to the line.

j-bay
10-23-2017, 02:27 PM
He said he wouldn't want to trade too much, not that he would trade an all star lol.

I said i wouldn't trade much IF Cousins is going to hit FA. Which i think he will even if he goes to Cavs. Wall and Cousins have a history of wanting to play together. Wall in the past has requested the Wiz trade for Cousins while Wall has done the same with the Kings. It never got done because both were really loyal to their teams. Now with Cousin's future in doubt in NO, it would not surprise me if Wall is in Cousins ear talking about a reunion in next years FA.

lol, please
10-23-2017, 03:17 PM
Bird had 4 seasons where he took 22 or less 3s all year. Different era, not really comparable.

However, what Davis is doing is getting to the line. A lot. That translates to a 63% TS, which is absurd Durant level efficiency. No one should be harping on his offense at all with his volume.
Great post.

Interestingly, not once did Shaq hit 63% TS for a season. While his FG% was absurdly high, his FT% brought him down. You can't send AD to the line.
I'd still take Shaq over AD, and I love AD's skillset.

Heediot
10-23-2017, 04:06 PM
AD in particular is scoring 31 points on 20 shots. Top that off with 17 rebounds a game.

What more could you ask for? He's shooting 45% from 3 on 3.7 attempts per game (more attempts than Bird averaged in his career)

Obviously that's only after 3 games and the numbers will change, but man I am shocked at how much criticism AD has been getting in multiple threads. What more do people want?

AD is one of the best individual players in the league. The problem is maybe what he brings to the table is over-rated. It's a ball handler league. Dribble drive, beating your man off the dribble and setting up team mates with drive and kicks. The man can score efficiently, but it appears he can't control the game the way he plays. A combo of say DD and Lowry may be less efficient vs. AD and Cousins, but these guys can control the action more with their style of play which may produce more wins vs. Davis. Ball handlers and time of possession in today's league is influential in my assessment. Look at Harden his first year with the Rox, the team was projected to have 30.5 wins and they ended up with 45. Based on that projection, the talent on that team wasn't that great. But due to his style of play, his game helped the Rox over-achieve that year.

I feel like if your going to build around a big man, having him be your defensive anchor seems to be more successful in the past decade. I feel like he's a guy that put you over if you have a stud ball handling player to control the game. Giannis is beasting and seems to be more impactful because he can control and dictate his terms. With Davis, he's nice be because he's so efficient, but I just think his skill-set doesn't translate as well in today's game.

FlashBolt
10-23-2017, 06:04 PM
Look at Harden with Jlin and Asik, dude made it to the playoffs in a tough western conference, maybe not as tough as now but it was still a superior conference to the east back then. Just compare how guys play with Harden and how guys play with Davis. He struggles to anticipate as well as the guys who facilitate the better offenses.

I'll give him some excuse as his team is poorly constructed. I just don't see him as a focal point to a top defense or offense because his iq/feel is lacking/developing.

You can't compare a guard to PF or Center, though. The league revolves around a guard to dominate and get everyone else involved. Is there a 1st option frontcourt player out there? I mean, AD and Cousins were probably the only ones to come to mind the past two years. The point is, AD+Cousins aren't able to make their teammates better the same way a guard can. And that's Jrue Holiday's role but he can't even make HIMSELF better.

europagnpilgrim
10-23-2017, 06:24 PM
Interestingly, not once did Shaq hit 63% TS for a season. While his FG% was absurdly high, his FT% brought him down. You can't send AD to the line.

What's even more interesting is that if you remove the 63%TS and just watch the game film you would think it is 99%TS, I would rely on the film way more than the actual percentage, that's the flaw of this new age science when judging players rightfully

europagnpilgrim
10-23-2017, 06:28 PM
You can't compare a guard to PF or Center, though. The league revolves around a guard to dominate and get everyone else involved. Is there a 1st option frontcourt player out there? I mean, AD and Cousins were probably the only ones to come to mind the past two years. The point is, AD+Cousins aren't able to make their teammates better the same way a guard can. And that's Jrue Holiday's role but he can't even make HIMSELF better.

Here is another flawed clichť about ''make their teammates better'', a guard nor a big man can do that, all stars make it easier on each other but no way in the world is Westbrook going to make Melo/George better, neither did he do it when he had his former big 3(and 4 if you count Ibaka)

they need a backcourt player who can go get a shot/bucket and play solid d, Klay would be perfect over there, or a Lillard, someone who can score and dish at equal level, Nelson would have been perfect 5-7yrs ago for this team, Rondo not so much because all he wants to do is pass and that doesn't put the pressure on defense to cause havoc unless he was capable of dropping 30 like the others I mentioned can

Heediot
10-23-2017, 07:00 PM
You can't compare a guard to PF or Center, though. The league revolves around a guard to dominate and get everyone else involved. Is there a 1st option frontcourt player out there? I mean, AD and Cousins were probably the only ones to come to mind the past two years. The point is, AD+Cousins aren't able to make their teammates better the same way a guard can. And that's Jrue Holiday's role but he can't even make HIMSELF better.

That's part of my point on AD. He doesn't have the feel to control a game. Noah on the Bulls when Rose was injured and Jokic on the Nuggets are examples of bigs that you can facilitate the offense through. These guys know how to make their team mates better with vision and passing. Even a guy like Marc Gasol who may not be as efficient as Davis knows how to read and survey the defense better. The problem with Davis is he doesn't think the game well IMO and isn't a step ahead. Dirk and Pau may not rack up assists but these guys know how to suck in the defense and make better reads also. They can anticipate doubles quicker, which helps when swinging the ball or setting up defenses. What Davis is good at is scoring when you give him the ball, surveying the floor and setting up his mates isn't his strength. If you ask to just score, he'll do his thing, if you ask him to control a game I don't think he's wired that way.

His lack of a floor game and his lack of foresight and ability to control a game as a basketball player effects his impact IMO. All the most impactful offensive players win with their minds just as much as their physical traits/skills.

ewing
10-23-2017, 07:22 PM
^^^ he's right. Alex English put up as many points as Larry Bird in the 80's he didn't have near the impact. He was just a scorer. Nothing wrong with that but it effects your impact.

IndyRealist
10-23-2017, 08:13 PM
What's even more interesting is that if you remove the 63%TS and just watch the game film you would think it is 99%TS, I would rely on the film way more than the actual percentage, that's the flaw of this new age science when judging players rightfully

You do realize you contradicted the point you were trying to make, right? If all you did was watch the game and not look at the boxscore, you WOULD think Shaq was at like 99% TS. Which would be wrong. Thank you for illustrating how flawed the "Just watch the games, nerd" BS really is. Watching game film is absolutely the #1 way to understand what's going on. Implying that analytics oriented fans don't watch games is just f***ing stupid.

However, relying predominantly on watching footage has a number of problems:
1) You're watching to be entertained, not to analyze the game. Most people aren't analyzing the pick n' rolls and relative positions of the outlet shooters on any given play, let alone on every play.
2) You can't physically pay attention to everything going on. There's too many players on the court at once, and limited viewing angles to work with. The game is too fast for you to process everything.
3) You can't remember everything you saw. Not in a game, not over a season. The human mind doesn't work that way. What was the 13th offensive play in the eighth game you watched last season? Can you remember what the eighth game you watched even was?
4) You're emotionally invested. People remember the breakaway dunk over the big man to win the game far more than they remember the layup in the middle. They're both 2 points.
5) Everyone looks at stats. Every time you quote points, rebounds, and blocks, you're looking at stats. You're just looking at the wrong ones.

There's more, with confirmation bias, etc. but you get the point. #4 is particularly important with Shaq. Everything he did looked INCREDIBLY impressive. They were all highlight reels on ESPN. Yet 2pts is still only 2pts. And the number of possessions he threw away at the line mitigated his offensive effectiveness. They had to CHANGE THE RULES because it was such an effective strategy against Shaq. With the current 1FT + possession rule, Shaq could have been top 2 all time.

FlashBolt
10-23-2017, 10:37 PM
That's part of my point on AD. He doesn't have the feel to control a game. Noah on the Bulls when Rose was injured and Jokic on the Nuggets are examples of bigs that you can facilitate the offense through. These guys know how to make their team mates better with vision and passing. Even a guy like Marc Gasol who may not be as efficient as Davis knows how to read and survey the defense better. The problem with Davis is he doesn't think the game well IMO and isn't a step ahead. Dirk and Pau may not rack up assists but these guys know how to suck in the defense and make better reads also. They can anticipate doubles quicker, which helps when swinging the ball or setting up defenses. What Davis is good at is scoring when you give him the ball, surveying the floor and setting up his mates isn't his strength. If you ask to just score, he'll do his thing, if you ask him to control a game I don't think he's wired that way.

His lack of a floor game and his lack of foresight and ability to control a game as a basketball player effects his impact IMO. All the most impactful offensive players win with their minds just as much as their physical traits/skills.

Now tell me, does Gasol and Noah have to carry their team the way AD does offensively? None of them are regulated to do what AD has to do. Noah in the Bulls had the team to pass to.. the Pelicans simply don't. Why sign Jrue to $25 million per year and the guy doesn't even show up to where we now blame AD? They can't shoot! No point in anticipating anything when they're on the bottom half of three point shooting teams. Weren't you the same one applauding Kyrie for showing up in the playoffs yet, the guy is a PG and does NONE of what you're saying?!?!?! Dirk at his peak was every bit as good as AD was and Pau doesn't belong in the same conversation.. there's no debate here - Anthony Davis will score and rebound for you but it isn't his job to make his shooters make those shots. Why do you think they got Rondo?

ewing
10-24-2017, 07:42 AM
haven't decided if Flashbolt is a total troll. what do you think?

FlashBolt
10-24-2017, 11:20 AM
haven't decided if Flashbolt is a total troll. what do you think?

No one cares what you think. I do my best to ignore your nonsense, anyways. Your posts are always generalities.

"LeBron sucks. He always cries about fouls."

Just blanket statements with zero substance. Every time.

R. Johnson#3
10-24-2017, 11:26 AM
DMC is a bonafide loser but nobody seems to realize it yet. 6 coaches in 7 years, some trades, FA signings and yet never even close to a .500 record in Sac Town. At some point people need to stop blaming what's around DMC and point the finger at him.

The Pelicans are going to do nothing with DMC. In about a month or two the locker room problems will start and the coach will be fired. The same thing happens every year with this goof. Hopefully he gets dealt to Cleveland and poisons them.

Vee-Rex
10-24-2017, 11:39 AM
Hopefully he gets dealt to Cleveland and poisons them.[/B]

You'd really want him in Cleveland?

Hayward's injury knocked Boston out of contention, Cavs have an overhauled roster and aren't looking the same, and Washington appears to be the same team (despite winning) as last year. The Raps chances at winning the East is better than ever before right now.

If I were a Raps fan I would NOT want Cleveland to get Cousins.

hugepatsfan
10-24-2017, 01:02 PM
You'd really want him in Cleveland?

Hayward's injury knocked Boston out of contention, Cavs have an overhauled roster and aren't looking the same, and Washington appears to be the same team (despite winning) as last year. The Raps chances at winning the East is better than ever before right now.

If I were a Raps fan I would NOT want Cleveland to get Cousins.

I mean, I think his post was pretty clear that he thinks Cousins is a toxic player who hurts teams from within despite his talent. So if he believes that then yeah, I think he'd love Cousins on CLE. I think there's a degree of truth to what he's saying too based on his team's past performances.

FlashBolt
10-24-2017, 01:09 PM
I mean, I think his post was pretty clear that he thinks Cousins is a toxic player who hurts teams from within despite his talent. So if he believes that then yeah, I think he'd love Cousins on CLE. I think there's a degree of truth to what he's saying too based on his team's past performances.

His positives still outweigh his negatives. Against the Warriors, Cousins+Love would be really tough to stop. That's all that matters - winning.

AllBall
10-24-2017, 02:12 PM
Overanalysis. AD and DMC need to keep doing what they're doing. Coaches need to get the other players to drop 3's. If they don't, I'm sure they'll add some by trade deadline. Healthy, this team will make the playoffs.

Heediot
10-24-2017, 04:19 PM
Now tell me, does Gasol and Noah have to carry their team the way AD does offensively? None of them are regulated to do what AD has to do. Noah in the Bulls had the team to pass to.. the Pelicans simply don't. Why sign Jrue to $25 million per year and the guy doesn't even show up to where we now blame AD? They can't shoot! No point in anticipating anything when they're on the bottom half of three point shooting teams. Weren't you the same one applauding Kyrie for showing up in the playoffs yet, the guy is a PG and does NONE of what you're saying?!?!?! Dirk at his peak was every bit as good as AD was and Pau doesn't belong in the same conversation.. there's no debate here - Anthony Davis will score and rebound for you but it isn't his job to make his shooters make those shots. Why do you think they got Rondo?

Marc and Noah, don't need to score 30 to carry their teams. These guys have won games when their PG's were injured. Gasol has a nice run when Conley went down last year. Noah was the focal poont when Rose went down and the bulls were still a respected opponent. Noah/Marc can impact the game with their defense and feel/iq on offense. The Grizzlies shot the 3 just as bad the Pelicans last year and even worse this year are 3-0. The 3 point shooting excuse has some validity but I don't see Marc Gasol needing that excuse. AD is one the best and most efficient volume scorers, but for a big man that might not translate on the w/l column. It's not just AD. K Love in Minny and Bosh on the Raps put up some nice numbers are other recent examples. Marc Gasol and the Grizz know how to do the small things and win close games, the subtle things that don't show up on the stat sheet also win games.

Davis doesn't know how to control a game. That's just my opinion, if you think he does then I respect that. It's easier for ball handlers to control a game in this league. Backcourt duos like Lowry/DD, Wall/Beal, Dame/McCollum, and so on seem to impact the game more vs. AD/Cousins. That's just how it is in the modern guy. Ball handlers are at an advantage because of the perimeter defense rules. Guys like RW and Giannis aren't the smartest players but the rules elevate their already crazy athleticism and ability to penetrate in the lane, which makes it easier for them to dictate what they want to do. It's an unfair league, that's just how it is and with Davis lack of ball handling/floor game he is at a disavdantage in trying to manipulate or control a game. Throw in his inability to be surgical or think a step or two ahead I feel these are the flaws that don't make him as impactful as people are expecting. I personally feel Pau and Dirk are smarter then Davis and know how to control a game better, If you don't agree I also respect that.

As for Kyrie, even with the small sample size I dont think he's a top 20 regular season player. Like Davis he can't think these game ahead and beat you with his feel/iq. I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt and showcase his talent in Boston but same ol' Kyrie so far.

tredigs
10-24-2017, 04:40 PM
We're going on 16 combined years between these two in the league and neither has ever won a playoff game (peak was AD leading his team to 45 wins - the only winning season either of the two have ever posted). I'd give them more of a break if they showed strong leadership, proved to help those around them reach their highest level, and excelled defensively (as both have no excuse not to). They don't. And they're going to lose again this year accordingly.

Heediot
10-24-2017, 04:45 PM
Anthony Davis will score and rebound for you but it isn't his job to make his shooters make those shots. Why do you think they got Rondo?

Yeah it's not his role to be a facilitator true. But maybe with his and DMC's massive usage the lack of combined playmaking for such usage isn't a recipe for success. Blame the shooters all you want, I don't see Russ crying with his bottom feeder 3 point shooting team last year. The Pels were below average but 35 percent is something you can work with unless your team lacks playmaking and creativity from your high usage players.

FlashBolt
10-24-2017, 05:09 PM
Yeah it's not his role to be a facilitator true. But maybe with his and DMC's massive usage the lack of combined playmaking for such usage isn't a recipe for success. Blame the shooters all you want, I don't see Russ crying with his bottom feeder 3 point shooting team last year. The Pels were below average but 35 percent is something you can work with unless your team lacks playmaking and creativity from your high usage players.

How many times did I tell you that AD and DMC can't be judged by a guard's role? Russ's job is to do that. AD's job ISN'T to get others involved the way Russ is. That's like saying "Russ should grab 15 rebounds and protect the rim because you don't see AD complaining." It just doesn't make sense. Jrue Holiday is SUPPOSED to replicate some type of guard-play. He isn't.

FlashBolt
10-24-2017, 05:13 PM
Marc and Noah, don't need to score 30 to carry their teams. These guys have won games when their PG's were injured. Gasol has a nice run when Conley went down last year. Noah was the focal poont when Rose went down and the bulls were still a respected opponent. Noah/Marc can impact the game with their defense and feel/iq on offense. The Grizzlies shot the 3 just as bad the Pelicans last year and even worse this year are 3-0. The 3 point shooting excuse has some validity but I don't see Marc Gasol needing that excuse. AD is one the best and most efficient volume scorers, but for a big man that might not translate on the w/l column. It's not just AD. K Love in Minny and Bosh on the Raps put up some nice numbers are other recent examples. Marc Gasol and the Grizz know how to do the small things and win close games, the subtle things that don't show up on the stat sheet also win games.

Davis doesn't know how to control a game. That's just my opinion, if you think he does then I respect that. It's easier for ball handlers to control a game in this league. Backcourt duos like Lowry/DD, Wall/Beal, Dame/McCollum, and so on seem to impact the game more vs. AD/Cousins. That's just how it is in the modern guy. Ball handlers are at an advantage because of the perimeter defense rules. Guys like RW and Giannis aren't the smartest players but the rules elevate their already crazy athleticism and ability to penetrate in the lane, which makes it easier for them to dictate what they want to do. It's an unfair league, that's just how it is and with Davis lack of ball handling/floor game he is at a disavdantage in trying to manipulate or control a game. Throw in his inability to be surgical or think a step or two ahead I feel these are the flaws that don't make him as impactful as people are expecting. I personally feel Pau and Dirk are smarter then Davis and know how to control a game better, If you don't agree I also respect that.

As for Kyrie, even with the small sample size I dont think he's a top 20 regular season player. Like Davis he can't think these game ahead and beat you with his feel/iq. I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt and showcase his talent in Boston but same ol' Kyrie so far.

AD has won games WITHOUT a PG... and he plays on the West. And Marc Gasol is on a very good Memphis team. None of what you said implies anything other than that those guys are great big men in their own right. Marc Gasol would not lead this Pelicans team anywhere, either. And if Memphis had AD all these years? No question we wouldn't be talking about AD as a loser. AD right now is better than both of those guys ever were.. not even close.

Heediot
10-24-2017, 05:21 PM
AD has won games WITHOUT a PG... and he plays on the West. And Marc Gasol is on a very good Memphis team. None of what you said implies anything other than that those guys are great big men in their own right. Marc Gasol would not lead this Pelicans team anywhere, either. And if Memphis had AD all these years? No question we wouldn't be talking about AD as a loser. AD right now is better than both of those guys ever were.. not even close.

Marc Gasol would of taken a team of Rhyno, Eric Gordon. Jrue and Tyreke further vs. AD, but that's just my view

I'm done with the thread. Tired of going in circles. I have my view and theories and put out my points. You have yours and that's that. I can see where people are coming from with their views of Davis and the flaws of how his team is constructed. I put out my own views to open up people's perspective. It is what it is, I have to accept that not everyone will agree with it.

europagnpilgrim
10-24-2017, 05:31 PM
You do realize you contradicted the point you were trying to make, right? If all you did was watch the game and not look at the boxscore, you WOULD think Shaq was at like 99% TS. Which would be wrong. Thank you for illustrating how flawed the "Just watch the games, nerd" BS really is. Watching game film is absolutely the #1 way to understand what's going on. Implying that analytics oriented fans don't watch games is just f***ing stupid.

However, relying predominantly on watching footage has a number of problems:
1) You're watching to be entertained, not to analyze the game. Most people aren't analyzing the pick n' rolls and relative positions of the outlet shooters on any given play, let alone on every play.
2) You can't physically pay attention to everything going on. There's too many players on the court at once, and limited viewing angles to work with. The game is too fast for you to process everything.
3) You can't remember everything you saw. Not in a game, not over a season. The human mind doesn't work that way. What was the 13th offensive play in the eighth game you watched last season? Can you remember what the eighth game you watched even was?
4) You're emotionally invested. People remember the breakaway dunk over the big man to win the game far more than they remember the layup in the middle. They're both 2 points.
5) Everyone looks at stats. Every time you quote points, rebounds, and blocks, you're looking at stats. You're just looking at the wrong ones.

There's more, with confirmation bias, etc. but you get the point. #4 is particularly important with Shaq. Everything he did looked INCREDIBLY impressive. They were all highlight reels on ESPN. Yet 2pts is still only 2pts. And the number of possessions he threw away at the line mitigated his offensive effectiveness. They had to CHANGE THE RULES because it was such an effective strategy against Shaq. With the current 1FT + possession rule, Shaq could have been top 2 all time.


What I was saying in very basic bball terms is that TS% is used by you and other new age nerds who feel that is a good meaure to rank player a vs b, you and the other nerds use this TS% garbage like its really something special when its not and all you have to do is watch the game film and you will see how dominant player x was, I was being funny when I said it would feel like its 99%TS, not sure why you couldn't wrap that around your TS% conscious

I play and watch the game to learn/study and be somewhat entertained even though I know what a player is going to do/be after watching him for 3+years and prior in college, game film is the purest form to see who is who and what is what, not TS%

IndyRealist
10-24-2017, 05:55 PM
What I was saying in very basic bball terms is that TS% is used by you and other new age nerds who feel that is a good meaure to rank player a vs b, you and the other nerds use this TS% garbage like its really something special when its not and all you have to do is watch the game film and you will see how dominant player x was, I was being funny when I said it would feel like its 99%TS, not sure why you couldn't wrap that around your TS% conscious

I play and watch the game to learn/study and be somewhat entertained even though I know what a player is going to do/be after watching him for 3+years and prior in college, game film is the purest form to see who is who and what is what, not TS%

No one ranks players by TS% alone. That would be a strawman argument. Like saying that people who take the time to understand analytics don't watch games. But you're good at coming up with strawman arguments.

If all it took to understand the game was to play/watch, Isaiah Thomas would be the most successful executive in the history of the NBA.

Chronz
10-24-2017, 06:41 PM
AD has won games WITHOUT a PG... and he plays on the West. And Marc Gasol is on a very good Memphis team. None of what you said implies anything other than that those guys are great big men in their own right. Marc Gasol would not lead this Pelicans team anywhere, either. And if Memphis had AD all these years? No question we wouldn't be talking about AD as a loser. AD right now is better than both of those guys ever were.. not even close.
The year ad made the playoffs, didn't they win a decent amount of games without him?

FlashBolt
10-25-2017, 12:44 AM
The year ad made the playoffs, didn't they win a decent amount of games without him?

6/9 = 40% win ratio = 33 games in a season. 3 of those games against 35% win teams (during that point).
They won 45 with Davis.

R. Johnson#3
10-25-2017, 07:40 AM
You'd really want him in Cleveland?

Hayward's injury knocked Boston out of contention, Cavs have an overhauled roster and aren't looking the same, and Washington appears to be the same team (despite winning) as last year. The Raps chances at winning the East is better than ever before right now.

If I were a Raps fan I would NOT want Cleveland to get Cousins.

I would love to see Lebron try to handle DMC on his squad. The Raps aren't beating the Cavs as is so why not hope for that?

R. Johnson#3
10-25-2017, 08:09 AM
I mean, I think his post was pretty clear that he thinks Cousins is a toxic player who hurts teams from within despite his talent. So if he believes that then yeah, I think he'd love Cousins on CLE. I think there's a degree of truth to what he's saying too based on his team's past performances.

He gets me.

Why is everyone so high on Boogie? He's a centre that's incapable of shooting 50% from the field and isn't all too smart. If you wanna call yourself a premier big man then you better be shooting at least 50%.

Ever since he started shooting 3's his offensive rebounds dropped by 1 and stayed there. He's not even a good 3pt shooter and just so happens to be a great rebounder. He's slowly but surely taking more 3's with little to no improvement in his %. So while DMC camps out by the 3pt line more and more his teams will be lacking that strong presence inside. That doesn't help teams win games.

He also turns the ball over a **** load for a C. Yeah he can make passes but he averages almost as many turnovers as he does assists. That doesn't help teams win games either. The guy would have the ball in his hands so much when bloody Rajon Rondo was on the floor!

DMC is a star because of fantasy sports. He puts up big numbers because he only cares about himself and not the team. He's very talented but just awful in a team setting.

hugepatsfan
10-25-2017, 12:26 PM
He gets me.

Why is everyone so high on Boogie? He's a centre that's incapable of shooting 50% from the field and isn't all too smart. If you wanna call yourself a premier big man then you better be shooting at least 50%.

Ever since he started shooting 3's his offensive rebounds dropped by 1 and stayed there. He's not even a good 3pt shooter and just so happens to be a great rebounder. He's slowly but surely taking more 3's with little to no improvement in his %. So while DMC camps out by the 3pt line more and more his teams will be lacking that strong presence inside. That doesn't help teams win games.

He also turns the ball over a **** load for a C. Yeah he can make passes but he averages almost as many turnovers as he does assists. That doesn't help teams win games either. The guy would have the ball in his hands so much when bloody Rajon Rondo was on the floor!

DMC is a star because of fantasy sports. He puts up big numbers because he only cares about himself and not the team. He's very talented but just awful in a team setting.

Your stance is stronger than mine on him but I definitely agree to a degree. Fantasy star over impactful team player is a good way to describe it. In fairness, he's been in some bad situations but he bears responsibility to a degree IMO.

ewing
10-25-2017, 01:11 PM
How many times did I tell you that AD and DMC can't be judged by a guard's role? Russ's job is to do that. AD's job ISN'T to get others involved the way Russ is. That's like saying "Russ should grab 15 rebounds and protect the rim because you don't see AD complaining." It just doesn't make sense. Jrue Holiday is SUPPOSED to replicate some type of guard-play. He isn't.

It can't be the PG role if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. teams have successfully run offense through players that weren't PGs. These guys just aren't very good at it (particularly Cousins b/c he holds and dribbles the ball a lot)

valade16
10-25-2017, 01:32 PM
It can't be the PG role if he doesn't have the ball in his hands all the time. teams have successfully run offensive through players that weren't PGs. These guys just aren't very good at it (particularly Cousins b/c he holds and dribbles the ball a lot)

I agree that you can't really run the offense through them (Boogie is averaging 6 TO to go with his 4.5 APG), but their supporting cast hasn't helped them at all. Jrue in particular has played like crap to start the season, and nobody outside Boogie and AD has played very well either.

R. Johnson#3
10-25-2017, 01:48 PM
Your stance is stronger than mine on him but I definitely agree to a degree. Fantasy star over impactful team player is a good way to describe it. In fairness, he's been in some bad situations but he bears responsibility to a degree IMO.

Yeah he's been in some bad situations I'll give him that but he needs to be the difference maker. The 3pt shooting just baffles me though especially in his final year with the Kings. He had Afflalo, Caspi, Gay, Barnes, Collison and Galloway on that squad yet he was still jacking up five threes a game on a team that was starved for rebounding.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 02:33 PM
If Cousins ends up on the Cavs for the BKN pick and Filler then the Cavs will win it all. It's over.

R. Johnson#3
10-25-2017, 04:18 PM
If Cousins ends up on the Cavs for the BKN pick and Filler then the Cavs will win it all. It's over.

They will implode. DMC will remind K Love what the good old days of losing basketball feel like. He'll start convincing him to take more shots and to only pass the ball to him.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 04:29 PM
They will implode. DMC will remind K Love what the good old days of losing basketball feel like. He'll start convincing him to take more shots and to only pass the ball to him.

They won't even come close to imploding lol

R. Johnson#3
10-25-2017, 04:36 PM
They won't even come close to imploding lol

Yes they will. DMC is poison. The second part of my post was clearly a joke but I do think he'd ruin them.

tredigs
10-25-2017, 04:39 PM
If Cousins ends up on the Cavs for the BKN pick and Filler then the Cavs will win it all. It's over.

They'd have all the star power in the world. But that group does not fit in the least. DMC is not going to be happy sitting around while the Cavs play Bron-Ball. We're still yet to see how IT will handle it. Even assuming they did buy in and miraculously found perfect team continuity in 4 months of play (both highly unlikely), I don't see that as a better team than Golden State. GS is still so much better defensively, and I'll take their O over Cleveland as well.

Vee-Rex
10-25-2017, 04:41 PM
Yeah he's been in some bad situations I'll give him that but he needs to be the difference maker. The 3pt shooting just baffles me though especially in his final year with the Kings. He had Afflalo, Caspi, Gay, Barnes, Collison and Galloway on that squad yet he was still jacking up five threes a game on a team that was starved for rebounding.

Besides LeBron, who takes those horrible Kings squads (with the inept front office and coaching staffs) to the playoffs? No one.

I get it - DMC intimidates people. He's a 'loose' cannon and scares people who aren't accustomed to guys with his personality, and so people hate him so much. I'd LOVE to play with someone like him and I have played with those kind of guys my entire life. You gotta separate feelings from the equation. Just because he isn't the best leader in the league (pretty much what it would take to get those squads to the playoffs) doesn't mean he can't be a good fit on a championship caliber team.

People are constantly fapping to guys like Klay Thompson who have never done anything on their own. Yes, Cousins is reckless but it doesn't mean he'll automatically **** up everything and can't be a valuable piece on a contender.

Look at Draymond - he's constantly high in the league in technical fouls, etc... he mouths off just as much as the next person and the Warriors are WINNING. Imagine how bad Dray would be if he was on a team like those Kings.

Criticism is perfectly fine but if you're indicating that Cousins can't ever win or be a valuable piece even if he's surrounded by high-talent players and/or great coaching/system, then you're just being FAR too critical and likely dipping into bias.

tredigs
10-25-2017, 04:44 PM
Besides LeBron, who takes those horrible Kings squads (with the inept front office and coaching staffs) to the playoffs? No one.

I get it - DMC intimidates people. He's a 'loose' cannon and scares people who aren't accustomed to guys with his personality, and so people hate him so much. I'd LOVE to play with someone like him and I have played with those kind of guys my entire life. You gotta separate feelings from the equation. Just because he isn't the best leader in the league (pretty much what it would take to get those squads to the playoffs) doesn't mean he can't be a good fit on a championship caliber team.

People are constantly fapping to guys like Klay Thompson who have never done anything on their own. Yes, Cousins is reckless but it doesn't mean he'll automatically **** up everything and can't be a valuable piece on a contender.

Look at Draymond - he's constantly high in the league in technical fouls, etc... he mouths off just as much as the next person and the Warriors are WINNING. Imagine how bad Dray would be if he was on a team like those Kings.

Criticism is perfectly fine but if you're indicating that Cousins can't ever win or be a valuable piece even if he's surrounded by high-talent players and/or great coaching/system, then you're just being FAR too critical and likely dipping into bias.

Draymond's not a good example by any means. He's a born leader who embodies the "team-first" mentality and could care less if he takes one shot so long as they win. He's simply a relentless defender who is always looking to motivate and set his teammates up. That basically describes the polar opposite of Cousins (and I'll trust Draymond to lead any team over Cousins all day. He will get much more out of his teammates and guarantee you a top-2 defender + top-3 playmaking big in the game to anchor your team).

That said, I really, really hope the Cavs get Cousins so the Warriors have the chance to take down an even more potent starting lineup.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 04:45 PM
They'd have all the star power in the world. But that group does not fit in the least. DMC is not going to be happy sitting around while the Cavs play Bron-Ball. We're still yet to see how IT will handle it. Even assuming they did buy in and miraculously found perfect team continuity in 4 months of play (both highly unlikely), I don't see that as a better team than Golden State. GS is still so much better defensively, and I'll take their O over Cleveland as well.

I think with Cousins it would just be way too hard for you all to stop them. Zaza won't be able to guard either Love or Cousins. Both guys can spread the floor and LeBron and Wade (not sure about IT) are Pick n roll/pop gods. I go wth the Cavs with that group because of LeBron. He's just too good and would have too much help. The Cavs have upgraded basically everywhere and this would be another huge upgrade. Especially if all they lose is a pick and Shump and Frye or something for filler.

Vee-Rex
10-25-2017, 04:53 PM
Draymond's not a good example by any means. He's a born leader who embodies the "team-first" mentality and could care less if he takes one shot so long as they win. He's simply a relentless defender who is always looking to motivate and set his teammates up. That basically describes the polar opposite of Cousins (and I'll trust Draymond to lead any team over Cousins all day. He will get much more out of his teammates and guarantee you a top-2 defender + top-3 playmaking big in the game to anchor your team).

That said, I really, really hope the Cavs get Cousins so the Warriors have the chance to take down an even more potent starting lineup.

And if Dray wasn't surrounded by 2 ****ing superstars and an all-star in Klay, I'm sure he'd be a bit less willing to sit back and take 0 shots. Hell, his shot attempts were increasing until they added Durant. The fact that Dray isn't as talented at DMC at scoring also makes it A LOT easier for him to take a backseat.

DMC has done perfectly fine on the Olympic team (which is exactly what the ****ing Warriors are right now) - 5FGA per game in 15 minutes.

I get it - Dray is a much better leader. I'm not arguing that. DMC isn't the same kind of player and he's a hot head and harder to control. But GD-it y'all need to cut the ***** SOME slack for crying out loud. He CAN be a positive piece on a contender and I'll argue against any BS narrative that he is nothing but poison that can't win because of it.

And I agree - Cavs would still lose to the Warriors even if they got DMC.

valade16
10-25-2017, 04:58 PM
They'd have all the star power in the world. But that group does not fit in the least. DMC is not going to be happy sitting around while the Cavs play Bron-Ball. We're still yet to see how IT will handle it. Even assuming they did buy in and miraculously found perfect team continuity in 4 months of play (both highly unlikely), I don't see that as a better team than Golden State. GS is still so much better defensively, and I'll take their O over Cleveland as well.

Cousins is jacking 3's up like he wants to stand at the 3pt line so maybe it could work lol

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 04:59 PM
Rose/IT
JR/Wade
LeBron/Korver
Love/Crowder
Cousins/TT

Perfect 1st and 2nd unit there imo, fits very well. Obviously mix and match here and there.

Closing lineup of:

IT
Wade
LeBron
Love
Cousins

You lose JRs shooting but add Wades clutch gene and greatness, and you offset losing JRs shooting by adding ITs for Rose. Cousins fan guard Green imo so if the Warriors want to go small they will have trouble guarding The Cavs frontcourt.

tredigs
10-25-2017, 05:12 PM
And if Dray wasn't surrounded by 2 ****ing superstars and an all-star in Klay, I'm sure he'd be a bit less willing to sit back and take 0 shots. Hell, his shot attempts were increasing until they added Durant. The fact that Dray isn't as talented at DMC at scoring also makes it A LOT easier for him to take a backseat.

DMC has done perfectly fine on the Olympic team (which is exactly what the ****ing Warriors are right now) - 5FGA per game in 15 minutes.

I get it - Dray is a much better leader. I'm not arguing that. DMC isn't the same kind of player and he's a hot head and harder to control. But GD-it y'all need to cut the ***** SOME slack for crying out loud. He CAN be a positive piece on a contender and I'll argue against any BS narrative that he is nothing but poison that can't win because of it.

And I agree - Cavs would still lose to the Warriors even if they got DMC.

He's been at 9-11 attempts per-36 his whole career. His shot attempts and efficiency were actually both increasing until they got KD, but the attempts were mostly a product of slightly increased usage and minutes. He brings offensive value without question, but scoring is the least of his attributes. Same debate I always have concerning him; #1 scorer does not equal best player/leader (he would not be the #1 option on any team - but he would be the best player and leader on many teams). As for Boogie - I'll believe it when I see it (the Olympics where they dominate nearly every team and very little is required from any single player is not the best example). He currently leads the NBA in Usage% again btw. Going into year 9 for him now, and I ain't seeing it.

Vee-Rex
10-25-2017, 05:23 PM
He's been at 9-11 attempts per-36 his whole career. His shot attempts and efficiency were actually both increasing until they got KD, but the attempts were mostly a product of slightly increased usage and minutes. He brings offensive value without question, but scoring is the least of his attributes. Same debate I always have concerning him; #1 scorer does not equal best player/leader (he would not be the #1 option on any team - but he would be the best player and leader on many teams). As for Boogie - I'll believe it when I see it (the Olympics where they dominate nearly every team and very little is required from any single player is not the best example). He currently leads the NBA in Usage% again btw. Going into year 9 for him now, and I ain't seeing it.

Okay, so maybe Dray wasn't the best example. But I do think he would have more meltdowns/anger explosions if he was on those Kings teams than he does now on the best team in NBA history. And they might fail in making the playoffs too, and then everyone on here would be talking about how he's a poison.

DMC is severely flawed but he's simply too talented to be a guy that can't win.

tredigs
10-25-2017, 05:35 PM
Okay, so maybe Dray wasn't the best example. But I do think he would have more meltdowns/anger explosions if he was on those Kings teams than he does now on the best team in NBA history. And they might fail in making the playoffs too, and then everyone on here would be talking about how he's a poison.

DMC is severely flawed but he's simply too talented to be a guy that can't win.
I don't hold the position that DMC is just some poison, but I don't think he has top-15 impact and he is definitely not the guy I would seek out if I was Cleveland.

Just to further my point about not necessarily needing a top scorer as your best player to be a good offense/succeed, Denver last year had the #4 offense and didn't have one 20 ppg scorer. Just a well balanced attack (you can find these guys all over and create a top O if the team is unselfish). Their issue was that they had the worst defense in the league (anchored by their best offensive player).

ewing
10-25-2017, 05:36 PM
Okay, so maybe Dray wasn't the best example. But I do think he would have more meltdowns/anger explosions if he was on those Kings teams than he does now on the best team in NBA history. And they might fail in making the playoffs too, and then everyone on here would be talking about how he's a poison.

DMC is severely flawed but he's simply too talented to be a guy that can't win.

Absolutely. The idea that a guy can get those type of number but you "can't" win with him regardless of surroundings is silly. That said he has been is drastically overrated by many on this board. The amount of time he spends with the ball in his hands produces #s but also hurts his team (or at least did in Sactown- I haven't really watch the Pels that much but he doesn't seem to have changed his strips or have the type of teammates that could take play making responsibility away from him)

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 05:37 PM
I don't hold the position that DMC is just some poison, but I don't think he has top-15 impact and he is definitely not the guy I would seek out if I was Cleveland.

Just to further my point about not necessarily needing a top scorer as your best player to be a good offense/succeed, Denver last year had the #4 offense and didn't have one 20 ppg scorer. Just a well balanced attack (you can find these guys all over and create a top O if the team is unselfish). Their issue was that they had the worst defense in the league (anchored by their best offensive player).

Who would you target with the BKN pick?

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 05:40 PM
I was hoping the Grizzlies would fall off so Gasol and/or Conley would become available but so far that's not the case.

tredigs
10-25-2017, 05:49 PM
Who would you target with the BKN pick?
A defensive presence if I was dead set on trading it. But who are they giving up to match salaries anyway?

j-bay
10-25-2017, 05:53 PM
Draymond's not a good example by any means. He's a born leader who embodies the "team-first" mentality and could care less if he takes one shot so long as they win. He's simply a relentless defender who is always looking to motivate and set his teammates up. That basically describes the polar opposite of Cousins (and I'll trust Draymond to lead any team over Cousins all day. He will get much more out of his teammates and guarantee you a top-2 defender + top-3 playmaking big in the game to anchor your team).

That said, I really, really hope the Cavs get Cousins so the Warriors have the chance to take down an even more potent starting lineup.

I hope he goes to Cleveland, they give up the Bklyn pick, and he goes to Washington in FA. Everybody assumes that he will stay in Cleveland because of Lebron. But Lebron isn't getting any younger. He could join Lebron and Love or join a young core of Wall, Beal, and OPJR

Heediot
10-25-2017, 06:21 PM
Absolutely. The idea that a guy can get those type of number but you "can't" win with him regardless of surroundings is silly. That said he has been is drastically overrated by many on this board. The amount of time he spends with the ball in his hands produces #s but also hurts his team (or at least did in Sactown- I haven't really watch the Pels that much but he doesn't seem to have changed his strips or have the type of teammates that could take play making responsibility away from him)

It's true DMC holds the ball longer vs. a guy like Melo who people say is a ball stopper. DMC averaged a 3.1 time of possession last year. One of if not the highest for a bondafide big man. But give him some credit for his passing numbers as his assist percentage was very good for a big man, especially with SAC last year. I think he's the type of player that is a willing passer but will make bad decisions when things are going not right or when he's frustrated. He'll probably look to score more in those scenarios. Same thing I see with Lowry and Derozan in Toronto. Some guys lose trust when the going gets tough.

kobe4thewinbang
10-25-2017, 07:38 PM
Two great players does not make a winning basketball team. They need Rondo back to set them up for easier shots and get the other two guys on the court involved. The twin towers has been a delight and they may keep Cousins now, but they need help from someone else. Jrue's been trash so far. They got rid of Crawford for Nelson...we'll see. Rondo's out another month looks like, so it'll be a struggle. They're still building that team, for sure.

Plus, look...60-70 points is not going to win a game in today's NBA, unless it's versus the Spurs or Hawks, lol.

Their defense like someone else said is also part of it. Tony Allen is past his prime, but he's helping out.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 08:12 PM
A defensive presence if I was dead set on trading it. But who are they giving up to match salaries anyway?

Shumpert and Frye, depending on the level of the player you could also include JR, Korver, and even TT I would think.

Would obviously have to be a big if you're trading TT but with the other guys I don't think there's any restrictions.

Jamiecballer
10-25-2017, 09:11 PM
I'm not sure in this day and age you CAN construct a team properly around those two. They are individually playing pretty well, but it just sucks the life out of the rest of the team.This

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Jamiecballer
10-25-2017, 09:13 PM
I get what you're saying but you gotta understand, AD+Cousins feel they have to take over every game because the rest of the guys don't produce results. Jrue Holiday is garbage and they gave him the contract out of goodwill because Jrue's wife had brain cancer or something. That's literally the only explanation. He's a terrible guard who is proving that if you are somewhat competent, you can be rich and rob a team blind. Rondo needs to get back ASAP and get some easy buckets going for the team because Jrue doesn't do any of that. They will regret signing him. The man cares more about his wife and family exponentially more than winning so good luck getting the guy to try and improve. No shooters around, no scorers elsewhere.. this team blows because you have two guys doing everything while the rest of the team can't even defend or make a damn three.That sounds remarkably like cousins in his previous situation.

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flea
10-26-2017, 11:16 PM
Pretty garbage playing so far. I watch Pels games when I can and nothing has changed my opinion from Kings Cousins. He takes himself out of the play on defense way too much, has terrible shot selection, and isn't much of a passer. Sure he can drive a little as a big, shoot a little as a big, and use his feet a little around the hoop. Plus he's a horse but his discipline on the glass isn't anything special.

He's just a big man with some touch - nothing more and nothing less. Antoine Carr/Antoine Walker. Too bad his name isn't Antoine.

WaDe03
10-26-2017, 11:28 PM
Keep the losses coming, the BKN pick is all yours NO.