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FlashBolt
10-21-2017, 01:38 AM
Original thread:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?917624-Giannis-vs-Porzingis-vs-Towns-vs-Embiid-vs-AD/page5

Added Jokic to this since he's come a long way since then.

Who do you draft first? That will be the poll question.

Add below who you would draft in order if you want to.

My order:

Giannis
Towns
AD
Porzingis
Jokic
Embiid

NYKnickFanatic
10-21-2017, 01:45 AM
Give me the Freak.

Won't do the draft because I don't know much about Jokic.

jaydubb
10-21-2017, 01:48 AM
Giannis
Ad
Towns
Porzingis
Jokic
Embiid

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Bostonjorge
10-21-2017, 01:50 AM
Davis
Towns
Unicorn
Greek
Embiid
Jokic

Davis had 35 points and 16 rebounds against GS tonight so itís still fresh in my mind.

basch152
10-21-2017, 02:43 AM
Davis
Towns
Unicorn
Greek
Embiid
Jokic

Davis had 35 points and 16 rebounds against GS tonight so itís still fresh in my mind.

You have porzingis above giannis? smh.

More-Than-Most
10-21-2017, 03:41 AM
the freak shouldnt be on here because he is already a god... Embiid : ) His defense slaps the **** out of everyone on this list... Towns is the safe pick... Embiid has the most talent... AD has already proven the most.


I voted freak... If I had to list them it would be

Freak/AD
Towns
Embiid/Porz/Jock

If I went by talent

Freak/Embiid
Ad/Porz
Towns/Jock


Towns is a top 10-15 player in basketball behind only AD/Freak right now but his defense is a massive concern where is Embiids health is a massive concern.

archdevil84
10-21-2017, 09:05 AM
give me lebron light 2.0 over anybody on this list. Giannis all the way

ewing
10-21-2017, 09:07 AM
dont think Freak and AD should be on the list they are already proven.

warfelg
10-21-2017, 09:21 AM
dont think Freak and AD should be on the list they are already proven.

Agreed. This was my first thought as I saw it and went...yea I would take the 2 guys that have shown they can do it for a few years.

Heediot
10-21-2017, 09:39 AM
As for Giannis, personally he more of a wing to me, I wouldn't clump him with this group.

Jokic will prove to be the guy who impacts the game the most offensively. Embiid would be the best if healthy. Towns will be the best of the bunch overall.

Towns 2nd year progress has trumped both Davis and Giannis so far, I think he projects to be better then both long term.

IKnowHoops
10-21-2017, 10:50 AM
Original thread:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?917624-Giannis-vs-Porzingis-vs-Towns-vs-Embiid-vs-AD/page5

Added Jokic to this since he's come a long way since then.

Who do you draft first? That will be the poll question.

Add below who you would draft in order if you want to.

My order:

Giannis
Towns
AD
Porzingis
Jokic
Embiid

Switch Towns and AD for me

IKnowHoops
10-21-2017, 10:57 AM
As for Giannis, personally he more of a wing to me, I wouldn't clump him with this group.

Jokic will prove to be the guy who impacts the game the most offensively. Embiid would be the best if healthy. Towns will be the best of the bunch overall.

Towns 2nd year progress has trumped both Davis and Giannis so far, I think he projects to be better then both long term.

Based on motor alone, moving forward, Jokic will not impact the game more than Gianni's on offense...not even close

FlashBolt
10-21-2017, 10:59 AM
Jokic is easily the best passing big right now, though. He's above Gasol at this point.

IKnowHoops
10-21-2017, 11:06 AM
Giannis is scary, and when you watch him, you can see that he's got GOAT ability. Not saying he will be the GOAT. But he's got a lot of "one of a kind" characteristics and he has extreme athleticism to boot. Like Shaq, Like Jordan, like Bron, he's just scary on another level and we've never seen anything like him and his game involves him being able to physically dominate you at will, besides having a high iq. He's a beast and the NBA just keeps evolving.

WaDe03
10-21-2017, 11:10 AM
I think Giannis should be listed because, like majority of the other guys he's only 22. The answer is also easily him, I don't even think it's debatable after what I've seen to start this season.

flea
10-21-2017, 11:29 AM
Giannis but he does have a long way to go - feel like pointing that out since there's a lot of fawning going on around here. He was dealt with rather easily by one of those good but unremarkable NBA veteran teams, and it wasn't a situation where his team was way out-talented.

But the way the NBA is officiated these days he can be as good or better of a slasher than Lebron. IMO his footwork is already lightyears ahead of where Lebron's was. He has a big's craftiness around the basket which is something Lebron never really had and still doesn't.

Heediot
10-21-2017, 11:47 AM
Based on motor alone, moving forward, Jokic will not impact the game more than Gianni's on offense...not even close

Jokic already one of the most impactful offensive players with all the metrics. Athletically wise and the way coaches game plan, yeah Giannis is more of a headache. I can see both sides being right.

The game right now is catered to Giannis skill set, so he has that advantage. I don't even think he should be grouped in this discussion tbh. It's like putting KD in this because he can play pf in certain lineups.

Heediot
10-21-2017, 11:49 AM
I think Giannis should be listed because, like majority of the other guys he's only 22. The answer is also easily him, I don't even think it's debatable after what I've seen to start this season.

Not sure if the list means young players or young bigs. To me he's not a big (in a purer sense) but I may be confused with my own interpretation of the OP.

jaydubb
10-21-2017, 12:13 PM
Not sure if the list means young players or young bigs. To me he's not a big (in a purer sense) but I may be confused with my own interpretation of the OP.The way I interpreted the list is young players with upside. It just so happens that the list has a bunch of power forwards and centers, and then there's also giannis. I think others should be added to the list as well, like Ben Simmons (although still very unproven he's got humongous upside) Devin booker, and then in a year or so players from the 2017 draft like Lonzo ball Dennis Smith and Jayson tatum

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Heediot
10-21-2017, 12:19 PM
The way I interpreted the list is young players with upside. It just so happens that the list has a bunch of power forwards and centers, and then there's also giannis. I think others should be added to the list as well, like Ben Simmons (although still very unproven he's got humongous upside) Devin booker, and then in a year or so players from the 2017 draft like Lonzo ball Dennis Smith and Jayson tatum

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Cool.

Giannis has a strong case. His skill-set is more suited to how the game is played right now. His defense is filthy also. Him being in the lead is well deserved. I feel KAT has a chance to be the best player in the group, but there's a strong chance I will be wrong in the long run.

FlashBolt
10-21-2017, 12:58 PM
Because of KAT's position, he won't have as large of an impact as a guy like Giannis. You can't just give the ball to KAT and expect him to change your offense the way Giannis can. The amazing part of Giannis is that he can play three positions at an elite level. He can't play SG because of a lack of shooting nor can he play center since he's still a bit smaller than those guys. But, the amount of lineups you can pair with Giannis is damn near luxury. If you have him on Fantasy basketball, Giannis can play like four positions. Having him is like gold.

Billups was saying yesterday how Giannis can lead the league in scoring just by getting to the basket. So far, it's looking possible. He might not be better than KD or LeBron yet but he's already better than KD was at the same age. Plus, his shooting is a problem but he was almost as good as LeBron in terms of shooting past 10 ft at the same age. If he even gets close to LeBron's shooting where it is respectable enough for you to stick closer to him, that's all he needs. Even being able to hit 33% of his threes would be suitable. His ceiling, IMO, is going to be higher than KD but just below LeBron. I mean, realistically, KD has zero rings if we're being fair :D

Heediot
10-21-2017, 01:37 PM
Because of KAT's position, he won't have as large of an impact as a guy like Giannis. You can't just give the ball to KAT and expect him to change your offense the way Giannis can. The amazing part of Giannis is that he can play three positions at an elite level. He can't play SG because of a lack of shooting nor can he play center since he's still a bit smaller than those guys. But, the amount of lineups you can pair with Giannis is damn near luxury. If you have him on Fantasy basketball, Giannis can play like four positions. Having him is like gold.


That's why I think Jokic is under-rated. He can impact the game with quick touches. He can find cutters and shooters very quick and doesn't need the ball with much time to make a positive play. He can score quickly and efficiently too with his respectable jumper and quick decision making. Yeah sometimes he takes time in iso situations but so does every one in the league. I think most other players need the ball for longer to make a positive play compared to Jokic. He's gifted in surveying and anticipating the play like a few in the league. Playing in an uptempo system like Denver he is the bread and butter, with vision, passing and quick decisions. Also, in a league dominated offensively by ball handlers having usage, him not needing the dominate ball as much to make an impact is under-stated.

Yeah KAT's value lessens because he needs others to get him the ball vs. Giannis who has control of the ball. Giannis is also miles ahead on D and he's only 1 year younger.

TylerSL
10-21-2017, 04:37 PM
The answer is Anthony Davis. AD is better than Giannis and they both have what could only be described as A+ potential. Giannis is 2 years younger, but Davis will be 25 in March so he's closer to his real prime. I can't believe I'm the first to pick AD.

1. Anthony Davis
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. Karl-Anthony Towns
4. Kristaps Porzingis
5. Nikola Jokic
6. Joel Embiid

Lakers + Giants
10-21-2017, 05:16 PM
1. Giannis
2. AD
3. KAT
4. KP
5. Jokic
6. Embiid

Not even a knock on Embiid, i just think the other guys are that good too plus they've proven it over a larger sample size. Could be completely different by the end of the year.

Hustla23
10-21-2017, 05:18 PM
How is Jokic's defense?

basch152
10-21-2017, 05:40 PM
The answer is Anthony Davis. AD is better than Giannis and they both have what could only be described as A+ potential. Giannis is 2 years younger, but Davis will be 25 in March so he's closer to his real prime. I can't believe I'm the first to pick AD.

1. Anthony Davis
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. Karl-Anthony Towns
4. Kristaps Porzingis
5. Nikola Jokic
6. Joel Embiid

giannis is a better playmaker and defender.

don't really see a big argument for AD, and I'm a huge Davis fan

warfelg
10-21-2017, 05:53 PM
I think AD is what he is at this point. A Robin to someone elseís Batman.

basch152
10-21-2017, 06:52 PM
I think AD is what he is at this point. A Robin to someone elseís Batman.

I definitely wouldn't go that far.

I think Davis would be amazing with a bunch of 3 & D guys

IKnowHoops
10-21-2017, 07:59 PM
I definitely wouldn't go that far.

I think Davis would be amazing with a bunch of 3 & D guys

Agreed. Giannis is just that good. AD is a beast though. A 30 and 10 guy on high efficiency and crazy athletic ability. Giannis is all that and more.

tp13baby
10-21-2017, 08:29 PM
The way I interpreted the list is young players with upside. It just so happens that the list has a bunch of power forwards and centers, and then there's also giannis. I think others should be added to the list as well, like Ben Simmons (although still very unproven he's got humongous upside) Devin booker, and then in a year or so players from the 2017 draft like Lonzo ball Dennis Smith and Jayson tatum

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Or we can keep it to a group of players that have already proven to be high end players that are big men in a guards league.

No one is denying Ball or Simmons has potential but god damn every forum is about them I swear.

Giannis, AD, Towns, Embiid, Jokic, Porzingas in that order.

Bostonjorge
10-21-2017, 09:03 PM
You have porzingis above giannis? smh.

Unicorn is 7í3 who can shoot better from the outside and protect the rim better. Heís a overall better defender or impacts the game more on defense. His only disadvantage is he plays alone in NY.

Greek canít shoot.

basch152
10-21-2017, 09:18 PM
Unicorn is 7í3 who can shoot better from the outside and protect the rim better. Heís a overall better defender or impacts the game more on defense. His only disadvantage is he plays alone in NY.

Greek canít shoot.

lol, porzingis is not a better defender first of all.

secondly giannis 6'11 with the handles and movement damn close to a PG, and is arguably the most athletic player in the NBA, and he's LEAGUES above porzingis at creating for his teammates

he's also a better rebounder than porzingis.

literally the only thing porzingis wins at is shooting.

PurpleJesus
10-21-2017, 10:19 PM
Giannis
AD
Towns
Embiid
Jokic
Porzingis

GiantsSwaGG
10-22-2017, 01:40 AM
How is Jokic's defense?

Atrocious

Blitzbolt
10-22-2017, 02:03 AM
Yuck!!! None of this players play defense (except the freak and ad)

I just don't understand the Jokic love fest the dude is one of the worst defensive bigs in the game...And I don't see him improving that ever.

Heediot
10-22-2017, 08:42 AM
After his 3 games, it might be safe to end the thread now. Giannis is a beast and he still has such a high ceiling. I'll concede KAT. Small sample for the season but damn!!!

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-22-2017, 08:54 AM
Giannis is MVP and DPOTY. Kobe said go for it. Giannis just needs a Robin.

cmellofan15
10-22-2017, 09:38 AM
Davis
Towns
Unicorn
Greek
Embiid
Jokic

Davis had 35 points and 16 rebounds against GS tonight so itís still fresh in my mind.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :laugh2:

tp13baby
10-22-2017, 10:01 AM
Yuck!!! None of this players play defense (except the freak and ad)

I just don't understand the Jokic love fest the dude is one of the worst defensive bigs in the game...And I don't see him improving that ever.

1The dude offensively works the best defensive bigs for the most part. great offense beats great defense.

2. Everyone besides Jokic are good defenders. Mostly G, AD and Embiid.

3. Never forget you confused Nurkic with Jokic.

Heediot
10-22-2017, 10:12 AM
AD is solid but still overrated as a defender.

mrblisterdundee
10-22-2017, 01:48 PM
Towns, Jokic and Porzingis only have about half the games of Giannis and Davis ó Embiid about one-tenth. I'll do a draft without Giannis and Davis, and add Myles Turner:

1.Towns
2. Jokic
3. Embiid
4. Porzingis
5. Turner

Blitzbolt
10-22-2017, 02:16 PM
1The dude offensively works the best defensive bigs for the most part. great offense beats great defense.

2. Everyone besides Jokic are good defenders. Mostly G, AD and Embiid.

3. Never forget you confused Nurkic with Jokic.

That's the issue his offense is very good but his Defense has to be among the worst of all bigs ...

Alot of bigs can score and pass in the NBA but none are as bad on defense as Jokiv is.

SoulBrotha
10-22-2017, 03:26 PM
AD is solid but still overrated as a defender.

Very overrated defender. He's lucky Cousins is doing all the dirty work on D

More-Than-Most
10-22-2017, 05:08 PM
Just gonna toss this in here for the few that tried to argue his defense in the other thread

Embiid

Through 3 games:
- 96.6 defensive rating with Embiid on the court (55 mins)
- 116.7 with Embiid on the bench (89 mins).

cmellofan15
10-22-2017, 09:37 PM
ďThrough 3 gamesĒ.......

More-Than-Most
10-22-2017, 10:03 PM
ďThrough 3 gamesĒ.......

wanna see the difference through 31 last year where some people tried to argue about his defense?

tp13baby
10-23-2017, 12:34 AM
Just gonna toss this in here for the few that tried to argue his defense in the other thread

Embiid

Through 3 games:
- 96.6 defensive rating with Embiid on the court (55 mins)
- 116.7 with Embiid on the bench (89 mins).

People are out of their mind if they donít think Embiid is a very very very good defender and I have him border line great.

More-Than-Most
10-23-2017, 01:39 AM
People are out of their mind if they donít think Embiid is a very very very good defender and I have him border line great.

yea most of us sixer fans are fine with the we need to see him play longer but for people to doubt his defense was a joke. He cant be a top player until he plays but he is one of the best defenders on the floor he just needs to stay healthy.

jaydubb
10-23-2017, 03:54 AM
Just gonna toss this in here for the few that tried to argue his defense in the other thread

Embiid

Through 3 games:
- 96.6 defensive rating with Embiid on the court (55 mins)
- 116.7 with Embiid on the bench (89 mins).

Why has he only played 55 minutes and sat on the bench for 89?

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More-Than-Most
10-23-2017, 04:13 AM
Why has he only played 55 minutes and sat on the bench for 89?

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missed yesterdays game... they didnt play him in a back to back and 3 games in 4 nights... without him for whatever reason and it goes back to last year the sixers are one of the worst defensive teams

Hawkeye15
10-23-2017, 09:17 AM
Giannis

Towns/AD
KP/Jokic

Embiid is his own thing. If he stays healthy, he might very well top this list. But he just hasn't played enough, and I don't have confidence he will play enough, to justify this.

WaDe03
10-23-2017, 12:31 PM
Close thread, it's easily Giannis. There's no debate or discussion needed.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-23-2017, 12:35 PM
Giannis needs to score 48+ to beat Jordan's 4 game scoring record. 31+ points to beat Kareem.

Oefarmy2005
10-23-2017, 12:54 PM
How about we start this thread right after Giannis has 3 monster games. I'm sure he'll sustain it through the year and his team will be a contender.... NOT.

FlashBolt
10-23-2017, 06:05 PM
Chronz said Khris M. is better than Giannis two years ago. time flies.

tp13baby
10-23-2017, 06:41 PM
How about we start this thread right after Giannis has 3 monster games. I'm sure he'll sustain it through the year and his team will be a contender.... NOT.

Milwaukee is a contender when the get Parker back in my opinion

FlashBolt
10-23-2017, 06:43 PM
Milwaukee is a contender when the get Parker back in my opinion

They need Thon Maker to take that next step. Monroe is great for post-play but he's just average defensively.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-24-2017, 09:03 AM
All the Bucks‏*@AllTheBucks 11h
11 hours ago


More
Giannis Antetokounmpo now holds the record for most points in the 1st four games for a player in ANY Bucks' season, with 147.

Giannis topped Kareem for scoring in first 4 games.

homie564
10-24-2017, 05:59 PM
Giannis
AD

Towns

Porzingis

Embiid
Jokic


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HeartOfStarks
10-24-2017, 06:01 PM
Giannis
AD

Towns

Porzingis

Embiid
Jokic


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I'd likely go with something close to this, although how is Towns' defense looking so far this year? I know he struggled last year on that end.

warfelg
10-24-2017, 06:10 PM
I'd likely go with something close to this, although how is Towns' defense looking so far this year? I know he struggled last year on that end.

Struggling a bit from what I've seen.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 10:27 AM
I'd likely go with something close to this, although how is Towns' defense looking so far this year? I know he struggled last year on that end.

Towns defense is terrible. I'm actually kind of shocked by how bad it is.

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 10:28 AM
Giannis topped Kareem for scoring in first 4 games.

He's better than Kareem.

ewing
10-25-2017, 10:36 AM
He's better than Kareem.

#s don't lie

WaDe03
10-25-2017, 11:11 AM
#s don't lie

This. Haters will say Faried isn't the 2nd best player in the league or Johnny O'Bryant isn't 5th but they are because their PER says so. Stay woke.

Baldyy
10-25-2017, 11:25 AM
It's sad, that was suppose to be his strength coming out of college.

I don't really understand it either, he certainly doesn't lack effort when he's out there, he has a defensive minded coach, I really just don't get it.

*In regards to WaDe03's post regarding Towns' defense*

flea
10-25-2017, 07:35 PM
It's sad, that was suppose to be his strength coming out of college.

I don't really understand it either, he certainly doesn't lack effort when he's out there, he has a defensive minded coach, I really just don't get it.

*In regards to WaDe03's post regarding Towns' defense*

He was a good shotblocker and rebounder but he wasn't necessarly a great defender at Kentucky - they just played 3 big men and 2 6'5 guards and platooned them so they never got tired. If you can play with that much size your defense will probably be good, plus they had WCS who was probably the best defensive player in college that year.

I've said it before, the 2 hardest things to do in the NBA is play big man defense and PG offense. It's not coincidental that these 2 take the longest to develop and you frequently see old timers stick around long after their athleticism has gone. I think since zone defenses have been allowed that big men defense has gotten slightly more difficult and PG offense has gotten slightly easier (if you can run P&R, that is) but it still holds.

FlashBolt
10-26-2017, 01:09 AM
I think it might be time to put Ben Simmons here, too.

17/11/7. Time for this dude to get some respect. That injury was unfortunate but he's the real deal. If Embiid can stay healthy.. watch out. Sixers will be the team that will dethrone LeBron.

hugepatsfan
10-26-2017, 10:07 AM
I think it might be time to put Ben Simmons here, too.

17/11/7. Time for this dude to get some respect. That injury was unfortunate but he's the real deal. If Embiid can stay healthy.. watch out. Sixers will be the team that will dethrone LeBron.

17/11/7 but on a below leage average TS%. Obviously a ton of room to grow and he looks like a future stud but I think you're jumping the gun to say that off of his 4 game stat line we need to include him already on the player he is. On what he can be, sure, absolutely.

Iversonfan4life
10-26-2017, 10:38 AM
17/11/7 but on a below leage average TS%. Obviously a ton of room to grow and he looks like a future stud but I think you're jumping the gun to say that off of his 4 game stat line we need to include him already on the player he is. On what he can be, sure, absolutely.

I agree its a little too early to put him on this list. Looks like he'll end up as part of this group sooner rather then later. He's got to get better at the line and finishing at the rim (just has to go up a little stronger).

Giannis has no business in this conversation with these players. He's so far above EVERYONE else in the league right now.

ewing
10-30-2017, 09:55 AM
How long until KP shoots back up this list?


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nycericanguy
10-30-2017, 12:38 PM
Giannis easily... but I think KP has overtaken KAT so far. KP & Giannis play both ends... Embiid too but you can't put Embidd on here until he plays a normal full season.

KP also has the most physical upside left... the other guys are built like grown men, but KP still has room to improve physically. The little bit of weight and muscle he put on this year really has helped him a ton in the post. He is no longer bullied away from shots. I think next year we will see an even stronger KP and that will be the beginning of his prime.

tp13baby
10-30-2017, 04:28 PM
How long until KP shoots back up this list?


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I assumed with the intense uptick in usage rate he would improve his numbers. Very possible Rose and Melo were cancers and hindered his numbers. I will wait a bit to see him more since I donít watch NY a lot being on the west coast. But he has been efficient it looks like. Iíll give it a little bit of time for now.

ewing
10-30-2017, 07:57 PM
I assumed with the intense uptick in usage rate he would improve his numbers. Very possible Rose and Melo were cancers and hindered his numbers. I will wait a bit to see him more since I donít watch NY a lot being on the west coast. But he has been efficient it looks like. Iíll give it a little bit of time for now.

He can flat score. If they can space for him he will get a lot buckets. If not passing becomes an issue


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tp13baby
10-30-2017, 08:40 PM
He can flat score. If they can space for him he will get a lot buckets. If not passing becomes an issue


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He looks unreal tonight.

D-Leethal
10-30-2017, 11:23 PM
He looks unreal tonight.

I was worried he would be shot tonight on the second night of a b2b. Nah just dropped a career high instead.

jaydubb
10-30-2017, 11:52 PM
Giannis
Ad
Towns
Porzingis
Jokic
Embiid

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I think Imma switch KP and Kat on my list for now... KP has been unreal and his defense puts him over the top imo

Giannis
AD
KP
Kat
Jokic
Embiid

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tp13baby
10-31-2017, 12:25 AM
I was worried he would be shot tonight on the second night of a b2b. Nah just dropped a career high instead.

On Paul Millsap no less.

ewing
10-31-2017, 12:41 AM
I was worried he would be shot tonight on the second night of a b2b. Nah just dropped a career high instead.

i know he can handle and extend himself but if you get him it with space in a sweet spot, Its over. i absolutely think he is an elite scorer.

lol, please
10-31-2017, 01:12 AM
Giannis is scary, and when you watch him, you can see that he's got GOAT ability. Not saying he will be the GOAT. But he's got a lot of "one of a kind" characteristics and he has extreme athleticism to boot. Like Shaq, Like Jordan, like Bron, he's just scary on another level and we've never seen anything like him and his game involves him being able to physically dominate you at will, besides having a high iq. He's a beast and the NBA just keeps evolving.

So basically Curry.

ewing
10-31-2017, 01:14 AM
So basically Curry.

I predict neither of those guys will be the GOAT

More-Than-Most
10-31-2017, 01:16 AM
Its really amazing to see how melo and rose held porz back like some of us stated. Knicks finally have a future.

D-Leethal
10-31-2017, 08:30 AM
Its really amazing to see how melo and rose held porz back like some of us stated. Knicks finally have a future.

Maybe. I like how Kristaps was eased into it. He was so raw those first 2 years. He played well anyway because of freakish ability but he was not ready to be featured. Him going 1 on 1 was ugly. It's ****ing amazing what he is doing out there from the elbow. Super patient and getting any shot he wants over anybody.

Reminds me of Kawhi not having to try and shoulder the scoring load until he was a few years in when he was ready for it. KP was given the reigns at the perfect time IMO.

ewing
10-31-2017, 08:42 AM
Maybe. I like how Kristaps was eased into it. He was so raw those first 2 years. He played well anyway because of freakish ability but he was not ready to be featured. Him going 1 on 1 was ugly. It's ****ing amazing what he is doing out there from the elbow. Super patient and getting any shot he wants over anybody.

Reminds me of Kawhi not having to try and shoulder the scoring load until he was a few years in when he was ready for it. KP was given the reigns at the perfect time IMO.

I think we also have to give some credit to firing Phil. Guys were just so unhappy and lost on offensive it was hard for anyone to get in the flow. That plus KP's legs are definitely stronger (guys aren't pushing him off the block anymore). Sure he has benefited from Melo moving on but he also jab steps more then anyone in the league not named Melo

D-Leethal
10-31-2017, 09:01 AM
I think we also have to give some credit to firing Phil. Guys were just so unhappy and lost on offensive it was hard for anyone to get in the flow. That plus KP's legs are definitely stronger (guys aren't pushing him off the block anymore). Sure he has benefited from Melo moving on but he also jab steps more then anyone in the league not named Melo

But in a weird way, I think Phil helped him too. Phil took this raw 7'3 shooter and told him on draft night you need to play defense and post up. There are a lot of execs in 2017 NBA that would have tried to mold KP into a pick/pop extraordinaire right out of the gate. Phil forced him out of his comfort zone - KP's post game was turrrrible his rookie year and even last year. He looks like a wizard from there now. I don't think many coaches/execs would force him out of his comfort zone like that but I think it worked. Not only that, but KP is out there saying his goal is to be DPOY. I think some of Phil's good side rubbed off on him.

Hustla23
10-31-2017, 10:18 AM
But in a weird way, I think Phil helped him too. Phil took this raw 7'3 shooter and told him on draft night you need to play defense and post up. There are a lot of execs in 2017 NBA that would have tried to mold KP into a pick/pop extraordinaire right out of the gate. Phil forced him out of his comfort zone - KP's post game was turrrrible his rookie year and even last year. He looks like a wizard from there now. I don't think many coaches/execs would force him out of his comfort zone like that but I think it worked. Not only that, but KP is out there saying his goal is to be DPOY. I think some of Phil's good side rubbed off on him.

That defense he played on Milsap yesterday was something else for a guy who also scored 38 on the offensive end.

Besides one open three that he gave up, he just completely shut down Milsap and suffocated him any time he tried to do anything. KP is an animal so far.

tp13baby
10-31-2017, 10:59 AM
That defense he played on Milsap yesterday was something else for a guy who also scored 38 on the offensive end.

Besides one open three that he gave up, he just completely shut down Milsap and suffocated him any time he tried to do anything. KP is an animal so far.

To be fair Millsap has been absolute dog **** on the offensive side of the ball this year. I mean absolutely terrible. Taking nothing away from KP cause he looked great but Millsap has struggled against guys like Ilyasova.

KP can be a weak side dominant defender, I would say rebounding is his biggest weakness from just watching, but thatís a factor of getting stronger because he kinda gets pushed around.

KnicksorBust
10-31-2017, 11:22 AM
I said it 2 years ago and everyone mocked me. I will say it again. Porzingis will be better than Dirk.

nycericanguy
10-31-2017, 11:54 AM
To be fair Millsap has been absolute dog **** on the offensive side of the ball this year. I mean absolutely terrible. Taking nothing away from KP cause he looked great but Millsap has struggled against guys like Ilyasova.

KP can be a weak side dominant defender, I would say rebounding is his biggest weakness from just watching, but thatís a factor of getting stronger because he kinda gets pushed around.

i mean he came in shooting 46% and shot 15% against KP... so pretty big difference.

IDK why DEN signed Milsap, he's going to be 33 and clearly on the downside of his career. He's a $12m type player now but he got $33m... Gallo was a better, younger fit there.

elledaddy
10-31-2017, 11:56 AM
But in a weird way, I think Phil helped him too. Phil took this raw 7'3 shooter and told him on draft night you need to play defense and post up. There are a lot of execs in 2017 NBA that would have tried to mold KP into a pick/pop extraordinaire right out of the gate. Phil forced him out of his comfort zone - KP's post game was turrrrible his rookie year and even last year. He looks like a wizard from there now. I don't think many coaches/execs would force him out of his comfort zone like that but I think it worked. Not only that, but KP is out there saying his goal is to be DPOY. I think some of Phil's good side rubbed off on him.


Phil gets ZERO credit for anything KP does, he didn't even want him. It was a gift that the other 3 teams made the pick for us. KP put in his own work

koreancabbage
10-31-2017, 12:13 PM
easily Giannis

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 01:17 PM
You guys are way too high on KP. He's playing great but he's so far, been just a high USG% scorer. He still doesn't have the other parts of his game to elevate teams.

Hustla23
10-31-2017, 01:17 PM
You guys are way too high on KP. He's playing great but he's so far, been just a high USG% scorer. He still doesn't have the other parts of his game to elevate teams.

Being a "high USG scorer" is a good thing if you're doing it efficiently.

Other parts of his game probably include things like being a good defender and altering/blocking shots at the rim.

Some guys are playmakers, and others aren't. It simply boils down to how many points you can produce for your team. Amare didn't do anything except score at a super efficient clip alongside Nash, yet you didn't see anyone complain about him not "elevating his team."

KP is dominating offensively without a primary playmaker alongside him. If Frank can develop into that guy or we can get someone else, then he'll be even more efficient.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 01:29 PM
Being a "high USG scorer" is a good thing if you're doing it efficiently.

Other parts of his game probably include things like being a good defender and altering/blocking shots at the rim.

Some guys are playmakers, and others aren't. It simply boils down to how many points you can produce for your team. Amare didn't do anything except score at a super efficient clip alongside Nash, yet you didn't see anyone complain about him not "elevating his team."

KP is dominating offensively without a primary playmaker alongside him. If Frank can develop into that guy or we can get someone else, then he'll be even more efficient.

So far, he's doing great. But he's a poor rebounder and only good at being a rim protector/team defender. The scoring was always something he could do. He's just had more opportunities to score but other parts of his game still has been the same - which I don't think applies to the other players who are more versatile and have improved.

Hawkeye15
10-31-2017, 01:32 PM
You guys are way too high on KP. He's playing great but he's so far, been just a high USG% scorer. He still doesn't have the other parts of his game to elevate teams.

idk, outside the Freak, none of the other 3 receiving votes have never led a team to wins. Davis is the most proven, but both Towns, and KP, are basically young bigs with a great game so far, but with holes. Both have the potential to be top 5 players but have a ways to get there.

Hawkeye15
10-31-2017, 01:38 PM
If I had a choice, I'll take the guy who can do more, though. I like KP but he's looking more like a scorer whereas the other guys are all versatile. It might be a Dirk vs KG/Duncan thing and I always thought KG/Duncan were just one step ahead of Dirk. Still, it's an amazing ceiling but give me the more versatile guys.

I get that. In reality, we won't know who is who, until KP/Towns are in the playoffs. That is what defined the differences between Barkley and Malone, or KG and Dirk for instance.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 01:40 PM
idk, outside the Freak, none of the other 3 receiving votes have never led a team to wins. Davis is the most proven, but both Towns, and KP, are basically young bigs with a great game so far, but with holes. Both have the potential to be top 5 players but have a ways to get there.

If I had a choice, I'll take the guy who can do more, though. I like KP but he's looking more like a scorer whereas the other guys are all versatile. It might be a Dirk vs KG/Duncan thing and I always thought KG/Duncan were just one step ahead of Dirk. Still, it's an amazing ceiling but give me the more versatile guys.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 01:58 PM
If I had a choice, I'll take the guy who can do more, though. I like KP but he's looking more like a scorer whereas the other guys are all versatile. It might be a Dirk vs KG/Duncan thing and I always thought KG/Duncan were just one step ahead of Dirk. Still, it's an amazing ceiling but give me the more versatile guys.

Are you watching full Knicks games?

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 02:01 PM
Are you watching full Knicks games?

Are you saying KP is more versatile than Davis, Embiid, Jokic, and Towns?

BK Knick5
10-31-2017, 02:04 PM
Are you watching full Knicks games?

They're obviously not. KP has drastically improved in literally every facet of the game over last season. It's been incredible to watch. Despite what the consensus of his defense might have been among the Knicks fans on these forums before this season, it really wasn't good. He was a good shot blocker but that's it. Small guys would blow by him and bigger heavier dudes would bully the **** out of him in the paint. There also wasn't a pump fake he didn't fall for. That's completely changed this season. He has actually looked like solid defender thus far. The rebounding is his only significant weakness right now. His offense is also drastically better and his one on one game looks absolutely elite.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 02:12 PM
Are you saying KP is more versatile than Davis, Embiid, Jokic, and Towns?

You are a master of deflection.

Davis, no, I'm not putting KP over him, although he's younger so he has more room for improvement.

Embiid is amazing. He's also played like 30 games in 3 seasons. So I wouldn't even include him here. Let's see him actually play 65+ games and not get rested every other game before we decide anything on him.

Jokic is awesome on offense, every game I've seen him play he absolutely stinks on D. Towns also every time I've watched him play his defense seems pretty trash.

Right now (it's early and I know this) KP is carrying his team to wins. That's what matters to me when I'm talking about "stars". Let's see what kind of win-loss impact these other guys have and then I'll make my judgement.

All of them are obviously great talents. Just putting this out there as my one singular opinion - granted I see way more of KP than these other players.

Which I'm guessing is the case for you as well, depending on who you watch most - unless you're watching full games on all these guys, including Knicks games, but I don't know that because you deflected my question ;)

Hawkeye15
10-31-2017, 02:17 PM
You are a master of deflection.

Davis, no, I'm not putting KP over him, although he's younger so he has more room for improvement.

Embiid is amazing. He's also played like 30 games in 3 seasons. So I wouldn't even include him here. Let's see him actually play 65+ games and not get rested every other game before we decide anything on him.

Jokic is awesome on offense, every game I've seen him play he absolutely stinks on D. Towns also every time I've watched him play his defense seems pretty trash.

Right now (it's early and I know this) KP is carrying his team to wins. That's what matters to me when I'm talking about "stars". Let's see what kind of win-loss impact these other guys have and then I'll make my judgement.

All of them are obviously great talents. Just putting this out there as my one singular opinion - granted I see way more of KP than these other players.

Which I'm guessing is the case for you as well, depending on who you watch most - unless you're watching full games on all these guys, including Knicks games, but I don't know that because you deflected my question ;)

Towns has played excellent defense the past 2 games. And it doesn't matter, because the prior 2, he was savagely bad on defense. That is the thing with young talent. They need to learn to be consistent in all the phases of the game outside scoring. Towns could end up a top 1-3 player in the game. Or, he could plateau and be a top 20 player. All depends on his nightly level of defense. I think KP is in the exact same boat.

And don't worry about his rebounding, he is still learning how to fundamentally box out, read board crashers, learn NBA shot trajectory, and since he challenges everything, is out of position many times. He will get better at that facet of the game. I just love his all around offensive ability, minus the distribution, which will also come..

Hawkeye15
10-31-2017, 02:24 PM
Totally, I think Towns is a beast, and already on offense he looks like a guy that can carry a team. Full disclosure: I don't actually watch many Wolves games, so there's no way I'm going to know anywhere near what you know about him.

But yeah clearly we're comparing young guys who all look like they'll be impact players/likely allstars for years to come. I hope Embiid DOES stay healthy, but I'm just not going to hop on his bandwagon until he actually proves he can.

and like I said earlier, who cares! Guys with KP/Towns/Embiid/Davis talent level, are defined in the postseason. It's why Dirk has a case over KG, or Barkley takes a dump on Malone. It's why Duncan is the greatest PF ever.

Towns and KP are 22 dude. Not that conversation isn't fun, but we won't really know what these guys are until a couple years from now. I hope they are fighting to get their names with the names I mentioned above, because that would be awesome for both of us haha

btw, this part of my post was in regard to your claim that KP still struggles with rebounding


And don't worry about his rebounding, he is still learning how to fundamentally box out, read board crashers, learn NBA shot trajectory, and since he challenges everything, is out of position many times. He will get better at that facet of the game. I just love his all around offensive ability, minus the distribution, which will also come..

cheetos185
10-31-2017, 02:24 PM
You guys are way too high on KP. He's playing great but he's so far, been just a high USG% scorer. He still doesn't have the other parts of his game to elevate teams.KP is a matchup nightmare for anyone if he decided to shoot 3 nobody could block him. Regarding his lack of rebounding keep in mind he's playing next Kanter and KOQ who are rebounding beast.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 02:25 PM
Towns has played excellent defense the past 2 games. And it doesn't matter, because the prior 2, he was savagely bad on defense. That is the thing with young talent. They need to learn to be consistent in all the phases of the game outside scoring. Towns could end up a top 1-3 player in the game. Or, he could plateau and be a top 20 player. All depends on his nightly level of defense. I think KP is in the exact same boat.

And don't worry about his rebounding, he is still learning how to fundamentally box out, read board crashers, learn NBA shot trajectory, and since he challenges everything, is out of position many times. He will get better at that facet of the game. I just love his all around offensive ability, minus the distribution, which will also come..

Totally, I think Towns is a beast, and already on offense he looks like a guy that can carry a team. Full disclosure: I don't actually watch many Wolves games, so there's no way I'm going to know anywhere near what you know about him.

But yeah clearly we're comparing young guys who all look like they'll be impact players/likely allstars for years to come. I hope Embiid DOES stay healthy, but I'm just not going to hop on his bandwagon until he actually proves he can.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:14 PM
You are a master of deflection.

Davis, no, I'm not putting KP over him, although he's younger so he has more room for improvement.

Embiid is amazing. He's also played like 30 games in 3 seasons. So I wouldn't even include him here. Let's see him actually play 65+ games and not get rested every other game before we decide anything on him.

Jokic is awesome on offense, every game I've seen him play he absolutely stinks on D. Towns also every time I've watched him play his defense seems pretty trash.

Right now (it's early and I know this) KP is carrying his team to wins. That's what matters to me when I'm talking about "stars". Let's see what kind of win-loss impact these other guys have and then I'll make my judgement.

All of them are obviously great talents. Just putting this out there as my one singular opinion - granted I see way more of KP than these other players.

Which I'm guessing is the case for you as well, depending on who you watch most - unless you're watching full games on all these guys, including Knicks games, but I don't know that because you deflected my question ;)

It's not deflecting. He's been used as a scorer - which would obviously make sense with Melo out. His production, so far, has simply been due to more shot opportunities. That's not indicative of an improvement by any means. What's with you people always asking "Did you see the games?" I don't have to watch an entire game to see that KP hasn't improved other areas but simply has had more shot opportunities. His defense is still iffy (which is why he always fouls) and they haven't really beaten great teams. Cavs are going through a period of figuring out rotations and I'm not sure you can say Nets are even a good team. He's had issues rebounding the ball as well. That's your Center, buddy.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 03:19 PM
It's not deflecting. He's been used as a scorer - which would obviously make sense with Melo out. His production, so far, has simply been due to more shot opportunities. That's not indicative of an improvement by any means. What's with you people always asking "Did you see the games?" I don't have to watch an entire game to see that KP hasn't improved other areas but simply has had more shot opportunities. His defense is still iffy (which is why he always fouls) and they haven't really beaten great teams. Cavs are going through a period of figuring out rotations and I'm not sure you can say Nets are even a good team. He's had issues rebounding the ball as well. That's your Center, buddy.

He's our power forward, buddy. But you're right, he hasn't improved in other areas at all. Every Knicks fan who actually DOES watch his games would agree with you. Zero improvement.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:27 PM
He's our power forward, buddy. But you're right, he hasn't improved in other areas at all. Every Knicks fan who actually DOES watch his games would agree with you. Zero improvement.

That's because you consider Kanter a Center when he's a true power forward. We had him playing PF at times with Adams just because he was such a liability defensively as a backup C. Okay, tell me which areas he has improved other than scoring. Please, englighten us all.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 03:35 PM
That's because you consider Kanter a Center when he's a true power forward. We had him playing PF at times with Adams just because he was such a liability defensively as a backup C. Okay, tell me which areas he has improved other than scoring. Please, englighten us all.

lol ok. Well again I've basically watched every single Knicks game since KP came in the league. (I've watched most Knick games over the past 25+ years but that's not relevant here).

So it's not me "enlightening" you like I'm better than you or something. I simply know more about him because I've seen him play hundreds of games at this point, just like you clearly know a million times more than me about OKC. No big deal.

His defense is definitely better over these first few games. He's always had solid defensive potential, especially around the rim, but his overall awareness and team D, along with what I'd say has been more altered shots than he was getting in seasons prior, are all improvements.

I also think you're underrating his passing a bit. He may not put up big assist numbers, but he really doesn't hold the ball either, keeps it moving, and just understands where he needs to be on both sides of the floor more and more.

He's also WAY more composed on offense. He used to rush shots/force things much more. The game is starting to slow down for him and if you watch the games you'd see that clearly. He's also fouling less, which again, defensively is a major improvement.

So now you know ;)

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:46 PM
lol ok. Well again I've basically watched every single Knicks game since KP came in the league. (I've watched most Knick games over the past 25+ years but that's not relevant here).

So it's not me "enlightening" you like I'm better than you or something. I simply know more about him because I've seen him play hundreds of games at this point, just like you clearly know a million times more than me about OKC. No big deal.

His defense is definitely better over these first few games. He's always had solid defensive potential, especially around the rim, but his overall awareness and team D, along with what I'd say has been more altered shots than he was getting in seasons prior, are all improvements.

I also think you're underrating his passing a bit. He may not put up big assist numbers, but he really doesn't hold the ball either, keeps it moving, and just understands where he needs to be on both sides of the floor more and more.

He's also WAY more composed on offense. He used to rush shots/force things much more. The game is starting to slow down for him and if you watch the games you'd see that clearly. He's also fouling less, which again, defensively is a major improvement.

So now you know ;)

In other words, you don't have anything legitimate so you point to the obvious. saying he's not a good passer and then say I'm underrating his passing is laughable. He's not a passer, period. For the amount of time he has the ball, he's actually one of the worst at making the pass.. You're really reaching for reasons to say he improved when it couldn't be farther from the truth. His increased output has strictly been from an increasing amount of shots and his versatility scoring has certainly went up another level. But there hasn't been much of any improvements thus far from the other areas of his game - which is why I said I would prefer the other guys who play a more overall game because it would be easier to build around. Porzingis's defense isn't anything to say it has improved. He's still not capable of defending the elite players and that's why so far, opposing centers have had their way against him. Horford is a pure example of someone who was able to get into KP's spots and force him to change shot selections and also, KP wasn't effective defensively at all. Plus, I honestly don't care how many NYK games you watch. Spike Lee watched more NYK games than any of us and he was on Melo's jock since forever.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 03:50 PM
In other words, you don't have anything legitimate so you point to the obvious. saying he's not a good passer and then say I'm underrating his passing is laughable. He's not a passer, period. For the amount of time he has the ball, he's actually one of the worst at making the pass.. You're really reaching for reasons to say he improved when it couldn't be farther from the truth. His increased output has strictly been from an increasing amount of shots and his versatility scoring has certainly went up another level. But there hasn't been much of any improvements thus far from the other areas of his game - which is why I said I would prefer the other guys who play a more overall game because it would be easier to build around. Porzingis's defense isn't anything to say it has improved. He's still not capable of defending the elite players and that's why so far, opposing centers have had their way against him. Horford is a pure example of someone who was able to get into KP's spots and force him to change shot selections and also, KP wasn't effective defensively at all. Plus, I honestly don't care how many NYK games you watch. Spike Lee watched more NYK games than any of us and he was on Melo's jock since forever.

I mean... he's improving on defense. I'm sorry whatever analytics you're looking at to make your case don't line up with what I'm saying, but in the small sample size that has been this season, his defense overall looks improved/more composed, as does his offense. We can just agree to disagree. Sorry I got your panties in a bunch.

Heediot
10-31-2017, 03:51 PM
Porzingis starts off strong every year, so we'll see what happens. I think he is an improved player, the man puts in the work. Personally though, I'll temper my views on him until later on. To give him some credit he never started off this strong, and on the flip side his usage is pretty high and flashbolt has a point.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 03:53 PM
I mean... he's improving on defense. I'm sorry whatever analytics you're looking at to make your case don't line up with what I'm saying, but in the small sample size that has been this season, his defense overall looks improved/more composed, as does his offense. We can just agree to disagree. Sorry I got your panties in a bunch.

In other words, I will now resort to insulting someone because I don't have a reasonable explanation as to if he improved or not. Saying I'm deflecting when your entire argument was based on, "I've watched more NYK games than you" is such a convincing argument.

ewing
10-31-2017, 03:54 PM
In other words, I will now resort to insulting someone because I don't have a reasonable explanation as to if he improved or not. Saying I'm deflecting when your entire argument was based on, "I've watched more NYK games than you" is such a convincing argument.

I'm convinced

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 03:59 PM
In other words, I will now resort to insulting someone because I don't have a reasonable explanation as to if he improved or not. Saying I'm deflecting when your entire argument was based on, "I've watched more NYK games than you" is such a convincing argument.

You dish you gotta be able to take. It's not like you didn't tell me I'm clueless in whatever words you used - I take that as an insult and toss it back your way a bit. It's all good. We don't agree. People disagree all the time. We'll see where all these guys are at in another year or two. It's an exciting new crop of young bigs and overall it's great for the game, which is the most important thing.

Hope your Thunder can knock off the Warriors this season. I realize it's likely a longshot but it would be some good karmic vengeance and I genuinely hope it happens.

nycericanguy
10-31-2017, 04:10 PM
So far, he's doing great. But he's a poor rebounder and only good at being a rim protector/team defender. The scoring was always something he could do. He's just had more opportunities to score but other parts of his game still has been the same - which I don't think applies to the other players who are more versatile and have improved.

he's not a poor rebounder, 8.3per game from the PF spot is very good. he has Kanter & KOQ eating up a ton of boards down low. if he played C he would get more RPG but the fact is right now his game is perimeter based so of course he's not going to be in the paint in position to grab a ton of boards...

he's scoring almost 30ppg on great efficiency in just 34mpg...sure he could score before, but now he's scoring on volume, efficiently, while being the #1 option and being the guy other teams game plan for... not many guys can do that and still stay efficient.

oh yea and he's a great defender on top of it...

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 04:13 PM
he's not a poor rebounder, 8.3per game from the PF spot is very good. he has Kanter & KOQ eating up a ton of boards down low. if he played C he would get more RPG but the fact is right now his game is perimeter based so of course he's not going to be in the paint in position to grab a ton of boards...

he's scoring almost 30ppg on great efficiency in just 34mpg...sure he could score before, but now he's scoring on volume, efficiently, while being the #1 option and being the guy other teams game plan for... not many guys can do that and still stay efficient.

oh yea and he's a great defender on top of it...

Listen the bottom line is he hasn't improved okay? He's just a scorer, he sucks at everything else and he's plateaued. Flashbolt saw some highlights on ESPN and reads articles about the Knicks so he just knows better than you, deal with it man ;)

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 04:24 PM
Listen the bottom line is he hasn't improved okay? He's just a scorer, he sucks at everything else and he's plateaued. Flashbolt saw some highlights on ESPN and reads articles about the Knicks so he just knows better than you, deal with it man ;)

When did I say he didn't improve as a player? I obviously said he improved his scoring. I'm saying the other parts of his game hasn't seen much or if any, improvement. Wow, shocking. A NYK fan agreeing with another NYK fan is supposed to make me incorrect? Lol, herd mentality. Think for yourself and come up with your own agument, dude. Yeah, I said KP has plateaued? Now you're just making stuff up. You insult people because they have an objective view of a certain player you are a fan of. Btw, I live in NY. I must know more about KP than anyone in this world because I live in NY. Yeah, I'm a NY'er who wants to see the Knicks suck so I hope KP does bad.. is that really what you're interpreting this as? It's like you guys can't handle objectivity of any kind. When KD left last season, I was on the side of us sucking but Russell putting up insane numbers. I said we should trade Russell for CP3.. So the difference is, I don't care if I am an OKC fan or not. NBA players are NBA players and quite frankly, there hasn't been much improvement in KP's overall game thus far. You trying to say he's an underrated passer when he's ranked one of the lowest is why I find your arguments full of air.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 04:34 PM
When did I say he didn't improve as a player? I obviously said he improved his scoring. I'm saying the other parts of his game hasn't seen much or if any, improvement. Wow, shocking. A NYK fan agreeing with another NYK fan is supposed to make me incorrect? Lol, herd mentality. Think for yourself and come up with your own agument, dude. Yeah, I said KP has plateaued? Now you're just making stuff up. You insult people because they have an objective view of a certain player you are a fan of. Btw, I live in NY. I must know more about KP than anyone in this world because I live in NY. Yeah, I'm a NY'er who wants to see the Knicks suck so I hope KP does bad.. is that really what you're interpreting this as? It's like you guys can't handle objectivity of any kind. When KD left last season, I was on the side of us sucking but Russell putting up insane numbers. I said we should trade Russell for CP3.. So the difference is, I don't care if I am an OKC fan or not. NBA players are NBA players and quite frankly, there hasn't been much improvement in KP's overall game thus far. You trying to say he's an underrated passer when he's ranked one of the lowest is why I find your arguments full of air.

I'm just posting here for fun man, I really don't intend to rile you up, which it seems like I'm doing, so I'll back off a bit.

We don't agree - I'm not putting words in your mouth - when you imply something, you imply it. Don't back peddle. Saying a player "isn't improving other facets of their game" is in fact saying they're plateauing in those facets. Simple as that. Sorry if there's misunderstanding or miscommunication there.

When I'm talking about his passing I'm basically talking about him moving the ball within the flow of the offense. I get that he doesn't have a high assist rate for a big, but again sometimes it's the hockey assist or just moving the ball that makes an offense improve overall. I realize that doesn't show up in a stat sheet so IF YOU AREN'T WATCHING THE GAMES you might not see it.

That's all I was saying. I realize you feel my arguments are falling flat. I'm not a professional bball analyst but I'm just going off of what I see in the sort of "eye test" manner, which certainly might be flawed. Just making my point. Cheers and enjoy NY.

nycericanguy
10-31-2017, 04:43 PM
When did I say he didn't improve as a player? I obviously said he improved his scoring. I'm saying the other parts of his game hasn't seen much or if any, improvement. Wow, shocking. A NYK fan agreeing with another NYK fan is supposed to make me incorrect? Lol, herd mentality. Think for yourself and come up with your own agument, dude. Yeah, I said KP has plateaued? Now you're just making stuff up. You insult people because they have an objective view of a certain player you are a fan of. Btw, I live in NY. I must know more about KP than anyone in this world because I live in NY. Yeah, I'm a NY'er who wants to see the Knicks suck so I hope KP does bad.. is that really what you're interpreting this as? It's like you guys can't handle objectivity of any kind. When KD left last season, I was on the side of us sucking but Russell putting up insane numbers. I said we should trade Russell for CP3.. So the difference is, I don't care if I am an OKC fan or not. NBA players are NBA players and quite frankly, there hasn't been much improvement in KP's overall game thus far. You trying to say he's an underrated passer when he's ranked one of the lowest is why I find your arguments full of air.

thats just crazy talk, i'd say he's definitely an early candidate for MIP this year.

as someone who's seen just about every KP game, i'm shocked at just how much he has improved.

FlashBolt
10-31-2017, 04:44 PM
I'm just posting here for fun man, I really don't intend to rile you up, which it seems like I'm doing, so I'll back off a bit.

We don't agree - I'm not putting words in your mouth - when you imply something, you imply it. Don't back peddle. Saying a player "isn't improving other facets of their game" is in fact saying they're plateauing in those facets. Simple as that. Sorry if there's misunderstanding or miscommunication there.

When I'm talking about his passing I'm basically talking about him moving the ball within the flow of the offense. I get that he doesn't have a high assist rate for a big, but again sometimes it's the hockey assist or just moving the ball that makes an offense improve overall. I realize that doesn't show up in a stat sheet so IF YOU AREN'T WATCHING THE GAMES you might not see it.

That's all I was saying. I realize you feel my arguments are falling flat. I'm not a professional bball analyst but I'm just going off of what I see in the sort of "eye test" manner, which certainly might be flawed. Just making my point. Cheers and enjoy NY.

I'll break it down for you.

1) IDGAF if you live in NY or you live in KP's basement. That doesn't prove anything.

2) I said he isn't improving other facets of their game thus far - which doesn't mean he won't in the future. Do you know what plateau means?

3) He's one of the worst at it - which I already told you. He's terrible at finding the open man but that might have to do with a new system without Melo as well.

4) No, you're just being a total d-bag bringing up panties when none of that was being thrown at you. Your lacking of argument really didn't convince anyone so sorry if you thought your pristine Knicks intelligence cultivating of you watching KP since his first game isn't enough to sway me.

zn23
10-31-2017, 04:48 PM
IMO KP has improved from last year but his USG% is the highest in the league at 35.1. Which is way higher than KAT and Jokic who are 25 and 22 respectively.

The reason I have those two still ranked above him, is that you can take KP out of a quarter for long stretches. In yesterday's game In the third quarter, which he played 11 minutes or so, Denver went on a massive run and outscored the Knicks 39-18 and KP only got 4 points. When he's not scoring he can't be a facilitator like Jokic. This wasn't the first time he was taken out of the offense. In the Detroit game, when SVG put Anthony Tolliver on him, KP was taken out and the Knicks blew a huge lead. When he's not scoring, he can't do much else on the offensive end. He's not a great rebounder like jokic or KAT, he's only had double digit rebounding twice this year.

What KP has proven this year is that he's a prolific scorer when given the touches. I expect him to avg. around 25-28 points for the rest of the year. But he's not carrying the Knicks. Enes Kanter has been a great addition for the team. Kyle O'Quinn is having a career year.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 04:51 PM
I'll break it down for you.

1) IDGAF if you live in NY or you live in KP's basement. That doesn't prove anything.

2) I said he isn't improving other facets of their game thus far - which doesn't mean he won't in the future. Do you know what plateau means?

3) He's one of the worst at it - which I already told you. He's terrible at finding the open man but that might have to do with a new system without Melo as well.

4) No, you're just being a total d-bag bringing up panties when none of that was being thrown at you. Your lacking of argument really didn't convince anyone so sorry if you thought your pristine Knicks intelligence cultivating of you watching KP since his first game isn't enough to sway me.

It'll be okay man. Really, it will. Enjoy your Tuesday.

colinskik
10-31-2017, 04:58 PM
KP has shown slight improvement on the boards this year, although there's still room for additional improvement. Would like to see his numbers closer to 10 per.

He's also shown improved defensive awareness after a small regression (IMO) last year. He's clogging up the lane and going straight up on almost every play, causing fits for the opposition. That style of defensive play will always result in a certain number of fouls per game.

We can argue that KP hasn't improved "other parts" of his game, but the only glaring weak spot is his assist numbers, which I don't think will ever improve all that much. He's not the kind of player that will set up teammates for easy hoops, but he is aware enough to move the ball and find the open guy. This wasn't happening last year as much as he seemed to be desperate for shots with Melo also on the floor. Now he's taking his time and has shown much improved composure, which is resulting in improved efficiency and timely hoops.

colinskik
10-31-2017, 05:00 PM
I'll break it down for you.

1) IDGAF if you live in NY or you live in KP's basement. That doesn't prove anything.

2) I said he isn't improving other facets of their game thus far - which doesn't mean he won't in the future. Do you know what plateau means?

3) He's one of the worst at it - which I already told you. He's terrible at finding the open man but that might have to do with a new system without Melo as well.

4) No, you're just being a total d-bag bringing up panties when none of that was being thrown at you. Your lacking of argument really didn't convince anyone so sorry if you thought your pristine Knicks intelligence cultivating of you watching KP since his first game isn't enough to sway me.

Relax, man. There's really no need to jump down dude's throat.

GiantsSwaGG
10-31-2017, 05:15 PM
I'll break it down for you.

1) IDGAF if you live in NY or you live in KP's basement. That doesn't prove anything.

2) I said he isn't improving other facets of their game thus far - which doesn't mean he won't in the future. Do you know what plateau means?

3) He's one of the worst at it - which I already told you. He's terrible at finding the open man but that might have to do with a new system without Melo as well.

4) No, you're just being a total d-bag bringing up panties when none of that was being thrown at you. Your lacking of argument really didn't convince anyone so sorry if you thought your pristine Knicks intelligence cultivating of you watching KP since his first game isn't enough to sway me.

Damn bruh you coming at him like he stole your girl or something

sixer04fan
10-31-2017, 05:32 PM
In terms of potential. In my opinion:

1) Embiid/Porzingis
2) Towns
3) Jokic

KnickNyKnick
10-31-2017, 05:53 PM
whats gonna happen when KP and Giannis decide to join forces.. damn!

sixer04fan
10-31-2017, 05:55 PM
whats gonna happen when KP and Giannis decide to join forces.. damn!

Yeah when they both sign with Philly - Embiid, KP, Giannis, Fultz, Simmons is gonna be insane

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 06:02 PM
Yeah when they both sign with Philly - Embiid, KP, Giannis, Fultz, Simmons is gonna be insane

haha v nice :cool:

tp13baby
10-31-2017, 06:50 PM
he's not a poor rebounder, 8.3per game from the PF spot is very good. he has Kanter & KOQ eating up a ton of boards down low. if he played C he would get more RPG but the fact is right now his game is perimeter based so of course he's not going to be in the paint in position to grab a ton of boards...

he's scoring almost 30ppg on great efficiency in just 34mpg...sure he could score before, but now he's scoring on volume, efficiently, while being the #1 option and being the guy other teams game plan for... not many guys can do that and still stay efficient.

oh yea and he's a great defender on top of it...

He is one of the more athletic bigs in the game and the tallest player. He does play in the paint so I have no clue what you are talking about. He isnít guarding only perimeter players, plus if that was the case he would have a ton less blocks because he is the best weakside shot blocker next to Green. His rebound percentage is right on the same path as his first 2 years. He should be better not along the same lines as Marc Gasol in terms of percentage.

IMO KP has improved from last year but his USG% is the highest in the league at 35.1. Which is way higher than KAT and Jokic who are 25 and 22 respectively.

The reason I have those two still ranked above him, is that you can take KP out of a quarter for long stretches. In yesterday's game In the third quarter, which he played 11 minutes or so, Denver went on a massive run and outscored the Knicks 39-18 and KP only got 4 points. When he's not scoring he can't be a facilitator like Jokic. This wasn't the first time he was taken out of the offense. In the Detroit game, when SVG put Anthony Tolliver on him, KP was taken out and the Knicks blew a huge lead. When he's not scoring, he can't do much else on the offensive end. He's not a great rebounder like jokic or KAT, he's only had double digit rebounding twice this year.

What KP has proven this year is that he's a prolific scorer when given the touches. I expect him to avg. around 25-28 points for the rest of the year. But he's not carrying the Knicks. Enes Kanter has been a great addition for the team. Kyle O'Quinn is having a career year.

Exactly. His usage is nuts but it should be. He is efficient, but not quite near the other young centers we talk about. No one would of had a clue he was a minus on the floor last night against Denver even though he had a career high. His last 4 free throws put him at even.

The season is young and we have Knicks fans saying he is leading the team. Itís a long season to be saying that.

1. Stud help side defender.
2. Prolific scorer.
3. Superstar potential

Negatives
1. Okay rebounder

Still love him and the Knicks got a hell of a player.

HeartOfStarks
10-31-2017, 06:59 PM
He is one of the more athletic bigs in the game and the tallest player. He does play in the paint so I have no clue what you are talking about. He isnít guarding only perimeter players, plus if that was the case he would have a ton less blocks because he is the best weakside shot blocker next to Green. His rebound percentage is right on the same path as his first 2 years. He should be better not along the same lines as Marc Gasol in terms of percentage.


Exactly. His usage is nuts but it should be. He is efficient, but not quite near the other young centers we talk about. No one would of had a clue he was a minus on the floor last night against Denver even though he had a career high. His last 4 free throws put him at even.

The season is young and we have Knicks fans saying he is leading the team. Itís a long season to be saying that.

1. Stud help side defender.
2. Prolific scorer.
3. Superstar potential

Negatives
1. Okay rebounder

Still love him and the Knicks got a hell of a player.

Well he is leading the team. We don't have a better player than him. Now whether he leads us to the 8th seed or right back into the lottery with 30 wins is yet to be seen, if that's what you mean. I really have no clue as to whether we'll sustain this current style of winning play or regress into garbage again. But no matter what KP will be leading us there!

cheetos185
10-31-2017, 08:08 PM
KP is better scorer and defender than jokic while jokic is a good passer he doesn't have KP type potential.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

Heediot
10-31-2017, 09:25 PM
Nothing against KP. But this happens every year. Porzingis starts off hot and the knick fans come out swinging. Not saying he can't sustain the All-star level play, to quote epmd you gots to chill.

cmellofan15
10-31-2017, 11:12 PM
Letís just take a minute to thank the mods for banning the incessant troll that used to roam around calling Giannis bae. Itís great to see him playing out of his mind and not have to read posts from that dude 🙌

SoulBrotha
10-31-2017, 11:45 PM
If Im starting a team today Im going
Embid
KP/AD
Gianis
You gotta be able to space the floor now even if your a big. KTowns Jokic and Saric gotta work on that D. Consistence good D impacts a game just as much (maybe more) as scoring points and grabbing boards

More-Than-Most
11-01-2017, 12:20 AM
Letís just take a minute to thank the mods for banning the incessant troll that used to roam around calling Giannis bae. Itís great to see him playing out of his mind and not have to read posts from that dude 🙌

i miss him : (

zn23
11-01-2017, 12:30 AM
Letís just take a minute to thank the mods for banning the incessant troll that used to roam around calling Giannis bae. Itís great to see him playing out of his mind and not have to read posts from that dude 🙌

Giannis94 brought energy to the forum. He should be brought back.

ewing
11-01-2017, 07:20 AM
Nothing against KP. But this happens every year. Porzingis starts off hot and the knick fans come out swinging. Not saying he can't sustain the All-star level play, to quote epmd you gots to chill.

This is true. Kp actually talk about changing his workouts to try and not hit a wall this year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KnickNyKnick
11-01-2017, 09:58 AM
Nothing against KP. But this happens every year. Porzingis starts off hot and the knick fans come out swinging. Not saying he can't sustain the All-star level play, to quote epmd you gots to chill.

This is true, but of course his first year there was that rookie wall. Maybe even a sophomore wall. But Looking at his before and after pictures dude is in great shape. But now hes the main focal point of the team, so it may wear him out. Only time will tell.

tp13baby
11-01-2017, 11:54 AM
If Im starting a team today Im going
Embid
KP/AD
Gianis
You gotta be able to space the floor now even if your a big. KTowns Jokic and Saric gotta work on that D. Consistence good D impacts a game just as much (maybe more) as scoring points and grabbing boards

Saric does t belong in this convo.

Itís getting to the point I see Jokics defense is trash and thatís hilarious. I will never say he is a great defender, but holy cow is trash far from it. For what itís worth right now Denver has improved defensively. Mediocre for sure. Jokic sits in the paint, he is a very good defensive rebounder. We are actually one of the better teams at opponents points per game in the paint ranking 7th. Shooting percentage 2 pointers we are a little above average. Defensive ratings no matter how you slice it we are better with Jokic on the floor. His rating is 101 which is good for second on our team behind Harris.

Jokic is average defensively and far from trash. Last year I can pull data that we are a much better team defensively with him on the floor than him off it.

He struggles against quicker bigs and his rotations are sometimes slow but one on one he is solid and doesnít give up offensive rebounds. This whole trash narrative is false.

tp13baby
11-01-2017, 12:21 PM
In the 3 years both KP and Jokic been in the league, Jokic has a greater 2 point shooting percentage every year, greater 3 point shooting percentage in 2/3 years, greater FT percentage in 2/3 years, greater AST/TO ratio, better rebound numbers 2/3 years, greater TS% every year, WS/48 every year, VORP every year, and BPM(plus/minus) every year. Jokic was the center of the 2nd best offensive team last year after he took over. Jokic has been career stats in every category except points per game.

Career Defensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-107

Career Offensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-122

Itís really not even a question who the better player is. I personally donít even take Porzy long term over Jokic, defense is more than just about an individual but career defensive rating can speak more how Jokic isnít that trash and Porzy is slightly overrated on the defensive end. Last shot I will take Porzingas though.

Heediot
11-01-2017, 12:53 PM
In the 3 years both KP and Jokic been in the league, Jokic has a greater 2 point shooting percentage every year, greater 3 point shooting percentage in 2/3 years, greater FT percentage in 2/3 years, greater AST/TO ratio, better rebound numbers 2/3 years, greater TS% every year, WS/48 every year, VORP every year, and BPM(plus/minus) every year. Jokic was the center of the 2nd best offensive team last year after he took over. Jokic has been career stats in every category except points per game.

Career Defensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-107

Career Offensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-122

Itís really not even a question who the better player is. I personally donít even take Porzy long term over Jokic, defense is more than just about an individual but career defensive rating can speak more how Jokic isnít that trash and Porzy is slightly overrated on the defensive end. Last shot I will take Porzingas though.

I'm a little concerned with the Milsap fit. Nurkic and Jokic didn't work well together, maybe Paul and Jokic may not as well. It appears Nuggets do better when Jokic mans the paint himself and facilitates the offense more. I think the Nuggets are struggling because they are figuring out how to utilize the 30 plus million dollar man. You don't shell out that much cheddar and without trying to figure out how to best utilize him. Can Milsap be useful if he is relegated to a 3-d guy? Too early to tell. Can they play together, hopefully they figure it out. Paul is a smart guy and a team player so we wil see.

nycericanguy
11-01-2017, 02:07 PM
In the 3 years both KP and Jokic been in the league, Jokic has a greater 2 point shooting percentage every year, greater 3 point shooting percentage in 2/3 years, greater FT percentage in 2/3 years, greater AST/TO ratio, better rebound numbers 2/3 years, greater TS% every year, WS/48 every year, VORP every year, and BPM(plus/minus) every year. Jokic was the center of the 2nd best offensive team last year after he took over. Jokic has been career stats in every category except points per game.

Career Defensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-107

Career Offensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-122

Itís really not even a question who the better player is. I personally donít even take Porzy long term over Jokic, defense is more than just about an individual but career defensive rating can speak more how Jokic isnít that trash and Porzy is slightly overrated on the defensive end. Last shot I will take Porzingas though.

you;re comparing a guy that attempts 9 shots per game for his career, of course he;s going to have a higher fg%, he picks his spots much more. KP has been a primary scorer for 2 years and is now the focal point.

Kp is already better now on both ends and has more upside.

sixer04fan
11-01-2017, 02:37 PM
In the 3 years both KP and Jokic been in the league, Jokic has a greater 2 point shooting percentage every year, greater 3 point shooting percentage in 2/3 years, greater FT percentage in 2/3 years, greater AST/TO ratio, better rebound numbers 2/3 years, greater TS% every year, WS/48 every year, VORP every year, and BPM(plus/minus) every year. Jokic was the center of the 2nd best offensive team last year after he took over. Jokic has been career stats in every category except points per game.

Career Defensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-107

Career Offensive rating
Porzy-106
Jokic-122

Itís really not even a question who the better player is. I personally donít even take Porzy long term over Jokic, defense is more than just about an individual but career defensive rating can speak more how Jokic isnít that trash and Porzy is slightly overrated on the defensive end. Last shot I will take Porzingas though.

Many times, better stats doesnít equal better player. A lot of those stats are VERY misleading when specifically used to compare players. They speak more to the situation a player is in rather than how good the player actually is. Youíre trying to use it as a comparison tool, but it isnít.

DeAndre Jordan had a higher TS% than Steph Curry last season. Is he a better shooter? Or does his situation and role dictate that number? Tristan Thompson had a higher offensive rating than Kevin Durant. Lucas Nogueria had a higher BPM than Blake Griffin, Marc Gasol, Dame Lillard, John Wall, etc.

Is Jokic better than KP right now? Perhaps. Theyíre both great players in different ways. Jokic was definitely a pretty elite player last season. But the evidence you used to support your claim is only a very tiny sliver of the conversation. And it might even be more misleading than actually useful for your side of the debate.

Hawkeye15
11-01-2017, 03:38 PM
Jokic has absolutely been the better player when compared to KP. But Jokic is way closer to his ceiling as is. He isn't a good defender, but could at least become a good team defender, and is a wonderful offensive player, but won't create for himself 19 feet from the rim. KP will likely be able to do both of those, on top of his already in place gifts.

tp13baby
11-01-2017, 04:19 PM
Many times, better stats doesnít equal better player. A lot of those stats are VERY misleading when specifically used to compare players. They speak more to the situation a player is in rather than how good the player actually is. Youíre trying to use it as a comparison tool, but it isnít.

DeAndre Jordan had a higher TS% than Steph Curry last season. Is he a better shooter? Or does his situation and role dictate that number? Tristan Thompson had a higher offensive rating than Kevin Durant. Lucas Nogueria had a higher BPM than Blake Griffin, Marc Gasol, Dame Lillard, John Wall, etc.

Is Jokic better than KP right now? Perhaps. Theyíre both great players in different ways. Jokic was definitely a pretty elite player last season. But the evidence you used to support your claim is only a very tiny sliver of the conversation. And it might even be more misleading than actually useful for your side of the debate.

KP scores, Jokic is the quarterback of a high powered offense. Denver before Jokic took over was a bottom third team in the league for offense. Simply running everything through Jokic they went from 23rd in offensive rating to second. KP will score more but Jokic is just better as a total package on offense.

My argument for defense is Jokic isnít trash, and KP isnít DPOY type yet. He is one of the best shot block weak side help defenders right now. Perimeter wise he is solid, interior he will get better too as he gets stronger.

Rebounding isnít really an argument. KP should dominate and Jokic shouldnít.


you;re comparing a guy that attempts 9 shots per game for his career, of course he;s going to have a higher fg%, he picks his spots much more. KP has been a primary scorer for 2 years and is now the focal point.

Kp is already better now on both ends and has more upside.

The primary scorer of your team for 2 years averages 16 ppg And has led NY to a below average offensive rating as a team. Like I said KP can score but Jokic makes everyone around him much better.


Jokic has absolutely been the better player when compared to KP. But Jokic is way closer to his ceiling as is. He isn't a good defender, but could at least become a good team defender, and is a wonderful offensive player, but won't create for himself 19 feet from the rim. KP will likely be able to do both of those, on top of his already in place gifts.

I can agree with this all, but Knicks fans have boners after a 7 game stretch of insane usage rate in an eastern conference no less.

Itís overkill to put KP above Jokic, but even more so over Embiid and Towns as if his last 2 years donít matter since he has started out with a crazy 2017-2018 year.

I know I will get **** for the Embiid one but just watching Embiid compared to KP when Embiid actually plays itís a huge difference between the 2 in terms of pure talent not even looking at stats or the effect each have on their team cause Embiid I would guess has a greater impact.

Hawkeye15
11-01-2017, 04:22 PM
nm

Hawkeye15
11-01-2017, 04:23 PM
.

I can agree with this all, but Knicks fans have boners after a 7 game stretch of insane usage rate in an eastern conference no less.

Itís overkill to put KP above Jokic, but even more so over Embiid and Towns as if his last 2 years donít matter since he has started out with a crazy 2017-2018 year.

I know I will get **** for the Embiid one but just watching Embiid compared to KP when Embiid actually plays itís a huge difference between the 2 in terms of pure talent not even looking at stats or the effect each have on their team cause Embiid I would guess has a greater impact.


Embiid is his own category until he shows he can play games consistently.

Towns, and KP are in the same boat. Both excellent players, with monster ceilings.

Jokic is the best of the group right now, because he is already ELITE as it gets offensively, and shows the ability to become a decent team defender. Right now, if time stopped, he is the one who helps you win the most. But if I had to pick amongst the 3 for the future, I am still taking Towns/KP ahead of Jokic. That is what "potential" does to us haha. It messes with our minds. But, in this case, Towns/KP aren't far enough off Jokic to worry about them not at least reaching a point where they contribute as much as he does.

One thing is for sure, fans never change. 2 weeks in, and people are arguing for a 5-7 game sample size over 2-3 years of evidence prior. Whatever.

GiantsSwaGG
11-01-2017, 04:31 PM
As a Knick fan I agree with tp13 KP if he reaches his potential will eventually be better than Jokic and imo Towns but heís not there yet. Like Tp said Jokic is more complete on offense. KP sucks at recognizing double teams, doesnít pass well and although heís improved as a rebounder he still average at best. 7í3 you should average 10 rebounds.

HeartOfStarks
11-01-2017, 04:32 PM
KP scores, Jokic is the quarterback of a high powered offense. Denver before Jokic took over was a bottom third team in the league for offense. Simply running everything through Jokic they went from 23rd in offensive rating to second. KP will score more but Jokic is just better as a total package on offense.

My argument for defense is Jokic isnít trash, and KP isnít DPOY type yet. He is one of the best shot block weak side help defenders right now. Perimeter wise he is solid, interior he will get better too as he gets stronger.

Rebounding isnít really an argument. KP should dominate and Jokic shouldnít.



The primary scorer of your team for 2 years averages 16 ppg And has led NY to a below average offensive rating as a team. Like I said KP can score but Jokic makes everyone around him much better.



I can agree with this all, but Knicks fans have boners after a 7 game stretch of insane usage rate in an eastern conference no less.

Itís overkill to put KP above Jokic, but even more so over Embiid and Towns as if his last 2 years donít matter since he has started out with a crazy 2017-2018 year.

I know I will get **** for the Embiid one but just watching Embiid compared to KP when Embiid actually plays itís a huge difference between the 2 in terms of pure talent not even looking at stats or the effect each have on their team cause Embiid I would guess has a greater impact.

This matters in a major way though. Embiid is a monster WHEN he plays - you'll get no argument from me there. But he hasn't proven he can stay healthy, AND he gets rested every back to back, doesn't play strings of games, etc.

You take any star player and rest them every other game and guess what? They're going to beast out when they play. Part of being an NBA great is playing through a grueling schedule - Embiid simply hasn't done that.

Heediot
11-01-2017, 05:53 PM
curry didn't have a big ceiling. but look at him now. 2 time mvp one of the best in the league. don't underestimate how one can develop. it's not just physical attributes. if you got skill and a good feel for the game, people have proven to develop.and grow in other ways.

Giannis94
11-01-2017, 09:03 PM
Letís just take a minute to thank the mods for banning the incessant troll that used to roam around calling Giannis bae. Itís great to see him playing out of his mind and not have to read posts from that dude 🙌

Lemme guess, you also believe that CNN is a legitimate news source? Seriously, you should be banned for spreading fake news, and checking facts.

Honestly, I love Embiid. He is the best player in the NBA. How can you argue the fact that Embiid got the highest average salary per games played- in NBA history- at a value of $4,740,000 per game played. Like Giannis is good. ut embiid is great. The second coming of wilt. Mark me as a fun. giannis holds nothing compared to him. Shame on him for getting $314,465 per game played.

Math backs it up. $4,740,000>$314,465.

More-Than-Most
11-01-2017, 09:58 PM
Lemme guess, you also believe that CNN is a legitimate news source? Seriously, you should be banned for spreading fake news, and checking facts.

Honestly, I love Embiid. He is the best player in the NBA. How can you argue the fact that Embiid got the highest average salary per games played- in NBA history- at a value of $4,740,000 per game played. Like Giannis is good. ut embiid is great. The second coming of wilt. Mark me as a fun. giannis holds nothing compared to him. Shame on him for getting $314,465 per game played.

Math backs it up. $4,740,000>$314,465.

Holy **** welcome back <3


Sorry Embiid tonight--------->Gia

Also Embiid 2way play is something Gia will never touch.

Gia-------->Embiid... For now... But if Embiid stays healthy he will be the best player in basketball by next season.

Giannis94
11-02-2017, 10:57 AM
Holy **** welcome back <3


Sorry Embiid tonight--------->Gia

Also Embiid 2way play is something Gia will never touch.

Gia-------->Embiid... For now... But if Embiid stays healthy he will be the best player in basketball by next season.

Bruh Embiid is da GOAT. DA BAE.

Think about it this way. If Giannis got the same AVG $ per game for his new contract, he would be getting 1,507,320,000

that is why Embiid is da goat.

zn23
11-02-2017, 11:41 AM
Last night was a great example of why Jokic is a cut above Porzingis. When Porzingis' shot isn't going in and he's not scoring, he can't do much else offensively. He's a poor rebounder when you consider his height and he doesn't really make his teammates better as evidenced by his assist numbers.

Jokic on the other hand 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 0 turnovers and a +20 from the field with only 8 points. His shot wasn't falling early, he got everyone else involved and the Nuggets destroyed in the Raps by halftime.

KnicksorBust
11-02-2017, 11:43 AM
Nothing against KP. But this happens every year. Porzingis starts off hot and the knick fans come out swinging. Not saying he can't sustain the All-star level play, to quote epmd you gots to chill.


One thing is for sure, fans never change. 2 weeks in, and people are arguing for a 5-7 game sample size over 2-3 years of evidence prior. Whatever.

But both of these statements ignore there is a difference between a nice start and scoring 28ppg without a real point guard. The gains are so clearly more sustainable in a 22 year old vs a 20 year old. I love to reference Kobe and Garnett. It's similar to me. The superstar potential is evident from day 1 but there are growing pains. Porzingis can now score in basically every way possible (drive, post, pnr, jump shot) and AGAIN is doing this without any semblence of talent around him. He's only being assisted on 51% of his baskets. That's lower than Embiid, Jokic and Towns.

Crackadalic
11-02-2017, 07:24 PM
Last night was a great example of why Jokic is a cut above Porzingis. When Porzingis' shot isn't going in and he's not scoring, he can't do much else offensively. He's a poor rebounder when you consider his height and he doesn't really make his teammates better as evidenced by his assist numbers.

Jokic on the other hand 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 0 turnovers and a +20 from the field with only 8 points. His shot wasn't falling early, he got everyone else involved and the Nuggets destroyed in the Raps by halftime.

Kp told Jeff he wasn't feeling well before the game and the report that he has a illness and questionable for tomorrows game for same illness.

cmellofan15
11-02-2017, 08:02 PM
Lemme guess, you also believe that CNN is a legitimate news source? Seriously, you should be banned for spreading fake news, and checking facts.

I should be banned for spreading fake news and checking facts?? That seems a bit conflicting donít you think....

Ehh whatever lmao continue to guzzle another manís semen as you were before..i canít knock the hustle!

Heediot
11-03-2017, 03:24 AM
But both of these statements ignore there is a difference between a nice start and scoring 28ppg without a real point guard. The gains are so clearly more sustainable in a 22 year old vs a 20 year old. I love to reference Kobe and Garnett. It's similar to me. The superstar potential is evident from day 1 but there are growing pains. Porzingis can now score in basically every way possible (drive, post, pnr, jump shot) and AGAIN is doing this without any semblence of talent around him. He's only being assisted on 51% of his baskets. That's lower than Embiid, Jokic and Towns.

none of my replies are knocking prozingis. but history tells us to take it ez. I said the same thing as u to his credit kp never had such a huge start. it is what it is though. sixrees fans will ost anytime Joel or Ben do something. Lakers with lonzo and Ingram.

KnicksorBust
11-03-2017, 07:00 AM
But both of these statements ignore there is a difference between a nice start and scoring 28ppg without a real point guard. The gains are so clearly more sustainable in a 22 year old vs a 20 year old. I love to reference Kobe and Garnett. It's similar to me. The superstar potential is evident from day 1 but there are growing pains. Porzingis can now score in basically every way possible (drive, post, pnr, jump shot) and AGAIN is doing this without any semblence of talent around him. He's only being assisted on 51% of his baskets. That's lower than Embiid, Jokic and Towns.

none of my replies are knocking prozingis. but history tells us to take it ez. I said the same thing as u to his credit kp never had such a huge start. it is what it is though. sixrees fans will ost anytime Joel or Ben do something. Lakers with lonzo and Ingram.

Right but isn't this still a sports forum? Would it be any fun at all to wait until Porzingis makes an all-nba team before saying he is a top 15? :)

The fun is debating his skill set and comparing him to other current players. If we waited until everything was fact it would be a pretty slow forum. I think he is already there. His "hot" start is sustainable. To watch his games is bizarre. Two games ago he had a series where he got a nice dunk on a pick and roll. Then blocked a shot. Then hit a 3pter from Steph Curry range. I mean how many other guys in the league are doing that as consistently as him?

MrSplashMan
11-03-2017, 03:50 PM
Gonna be interesting to see if Porzingis can stay as a 4

KnicksorBust
11-03-2017, 09:48 PM
Kp> dirk

KnickNyKnick
11-03-2017, 09:49 PM
KP about to drop 40. another 30+ pt game. his number keeps growing here lol.

tp13baby
11-03-2017, 10:07 PM
KP about to drop 40. another 30+ pt game. his number keeps growing here lol.

Great game against the most trash defense in the league. You expect that from that type of player. Beating a dead horse itís a small sample size. Could of came in to this and said something about his poor performance against Houston with a Anderson lighting him up.

KnickNyKnick
11-03-2017, 10:40 PM
Great game against the most trash defense in the league. You expect that from that type of player. Beating a dead horse itís a small sample size. Could of came in to this and said something about his poor performance against Houston with a Anderson lighting him up.

how about 6 30pt games in 7 games? even that in its sample size many have not done.

tp13baby
11-03-2017, 10:49 PM
how about 6 30pt games in 7 games? even that in its sample size many have not done.

He looks great no one in this forum is denying it. A usage rate of 35 plus is helping him get his but overall efficient. His iso isnít elite but also a small sample size. He is Better than .71 points per iso attempt.

jaydubb
11-04-2017, 12:40 AM
Kp> dirkWoah there..

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 08:23 AM
null

So you want to refute a "small sample size" with an even smaller sample size? :)

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 09:27 AM
Kp> dirkWoah there..

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Prob makes me sound like a homer but anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I didn't say bs like that about Stoudemire, Melo, etc. I never ran around saying Knicks are gonna win the title this year. Porzingis is different. I believed he would be better than Dirk 2 years ago. He is a gym rat. When skill set and work ethic are special like his then you have an elite player. He can score in any way possible and the attention he draws gets easier shots for his teammates. I see the open looks. The Dirk level impact on offense is already showing itself. The difference is on defense. Porzingis is an elite rim protector. He proved he had that upside last year and is continuing where he left off. That makes him better than Dirk.

NYKnickFanatic
11-04-2017, 09:33 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_CH3H2G87xA

Baldyy
11-04-2017, 10:21 AM
Prob makes me sound like a homer but anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I didn't say bs like that about Stoudemire, Melo, etc. I never ran around saying Knicks are gonna win the title this year. Porzingis is different. I believed he would be better than Dirk 2 years ago. He is a gym rat. When skill set and work ethic are special like his then you have an elite player. He can score in any way possible and the attention he draws gets easier shots for his teammates. I see the open looks. The Dirk level impact on offense is already showing itself. The difference is on defense. Porzingis is an elite rim protector. He proved he had that upside last year and is continuing where he left off. That makes him better than Dirk.

Better than Dirk at this second in time? Yes.

If he does this for 10 consecutive years and carries his team to a title, we can have the conversation of him being better.

Hustla23
11-04-2017, 11:07 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_CH3H2G87xA

I don't think Jokic can do either of these things lol.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2017, 11:17 AM
Prob makes me sound like a homer but anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I didn't say bs like that about Stoudemire, Melo, etc. I never ran around saying Knicks are gonna win the title this year. Porzingis is different. I believed he would be better than Dirk 2 years ago. He is a gym rat. When skill set and work ethic are special like his then you have an elite player. He can score in any way possible and the attention he draws gets easier shots for his teammates. I see the open looks. The Dirk level impact on offense is already showing itself. The difference is on defense. Porzingis is an elite rim protector. He proved he had that upside last year and is continuing where he left off. That makes him better than Dirk.

Big claim he will be better than Dirk, who routinely elevated his game come playoff time, and is one of the best PF's to ever play.

I get you are trying to be bold, and likely believe it. But you are going to get crushed for it haha.

As I pointed out earlier, until these young pups get to the playoffs, we won't see who is who. It's why the Barkley/KG/Dirk/Duncan argument laid itself in order. Real men show up when it matters most. We don't even know which of Porz/Towns/Jokic/Embiid/Davis is real yet...

That being said, Towns has regressed to begin the year, and is even WORSE defensively. I didn't think that was possible...

Hustla23
11-04-2017, 11:28 AM
Big claim he will be better than Dirk, who routinely elevated his game come playoff time, and is one of the best PF's to ever play.

I get you are trying to be bold, and likely believe it. But you are going to get crushed for it haha.

As I pointed out earlier, until these young pups get to the playoffs, we won't see who is who. It's why the Barkley/KG/Dirk/Duncan argument laid itself in order. Real men show up when it matters most. We don't even know which of Porz/Towns/Jokic/Embiid/Davis is real yet...

That being said, Towns has regressed to begin the year, and is even WORSE defensively. I didn't think that was possible...

I tend to agree. Anyone can put up big numbers in the regular season. But it's the real elite players who can elevate their game in a different atmosphere that is the playoffs.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2017, 11:30 AM
I tend to agree. Anyone can put up big numbers in the regular season. But it's the real elite players who can elevate their game in a different atmosphere that is the playoffs.

well, not anyone haha. All stars put up big numbers in the regular season. HOF'res and legends do it when it matters though. To be on Dirk's level, KP is going to have to produce at a very high level deep in the playoffs..Dirk did it in the stacked west of the 2000-10's. Against a plethora of PF's that are in (or will be) the HOF.

Hustla23
11-04-2017, 11:42 AM
well, not anyone haha. All stars put up big numbers in the regular season. HOF'res and legends do it when it matters though. To be on Dirk's level, KP is going to have to produce at a very high level deep in the playoffs..Dirk did it in the stacked west of the 2000-10's. Against a plethora of PF's that are in (or will be) the HOF.

Lol a bit of an exaggeration but I think we're on the same page. People can disagree but I think that playoff performance is the most significant barometer for assessing player ability. The added pressure just transforms the setting into a different sort of playing area almost. The pretenders sink and the genuine elite stay afloat.

ewing
11-04-2017, 11:45 AM
he is a combination of Dirk and KD

Federal Reserve
11-04-2017, 01:35 PM
Anyone who has watched the Knicks last season knew that Porzingis was forced to camp at the three-point line while Melo proceeded to waste time on the clock and took inefficient shots. Giannis is the only one on the list who has a good argument. It will come down to whoever can lead his respective team to a better record.

tp13baby
11-04-2017, 01:50 PM
So you want to refute a "small sample size" with an even smaller sample size? :)

You missed my point that after every game to post in here his stat line about how good he is is pretty ridiculous. This year he is the best out of the centers, his career wise is the worst. before I claim it was 100 percent cause of Melo, his efficiency stays up, and continues to stay competitive in the east then I will reevaluate. He probably has the most potential and second lowest floor.

Yíall are getting overly defensive to my only claim is what he is doing now is just this year.

tp13baby
11-04-2017, 01:53 PM
Anyone who has watched the Knicks last season knew that Porzingis was forced to camp at the three-point line while Melo proceeded to waste time on the clock and took inefficient shots. Giannis is the only one on the list who has a good argument. It will come down to whoever can lead his respective team to a better record.

Absolutely crazy a fan base on here and in person booed this pick and now we consider him the second best young player in the league after 7 games. This is blasphemy.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 02:01 PM
Prob makes me sound like a homer but anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I didn't say bs like that about Stoudemire, Melo, etc. I never ran around saying Knicks are gonna win the title this year. Porzingis is different. I believed he would be better than Dirk 2 years ago. He is a gym rat. When skill set and work ethic are special like his then you have an elite player. He can score in any way possible and the attention he draws gets easier shots for his teammates. I see the open looks. The Dirk level impact on offense is already showing itself. The difference is on defense. Porzingis is an elite rim protector. He proved he had that upside last year and is continuing where he left off. That makes him better than Dirk.

Better than Dirk at this second in time? Yes.

If he does this for 10 consecutive years and carries his team to a title, we can have the conversation of him being better.

No sane person would argue careers yet. I am talking skills. Offensively he is on the verge and defensively he is already better than Dirk ever was.

Federal Reserve
11-04-2017, 02:03 PM
Absolutely crazy a fan base on here and in person booed this pick and now we consider him the second best young player in the league after 7 games. This is blasphemy.

People who actually watch basketball knew that Porzingis was the best pick at that spot (most wanted Okafor and Russell, though) because of his upside. Every player on this list would play much worse with Melo and Rose jacking up shots. Also, being the second best young player in the league means you have the potential. Please provide ANY evidence that anyone besides Giannis has more potential than Giannis. AD and Embiid are too injury prone to be drafted.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 02:04 PM
Prob makes me sound like a homer but anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I didn't say bs like that about Stoudemire, Melo, etc. I never ran around saying Knicks are gonna win the title this year. Porzingis is different. I believed he would be better than Dirk 2 years ago. He is a gym rat. When skill set and work ethic are special like his then you have an elite player. He can score in any way possible and the attention he draws gets easier shots for his teammates. I see the open looks. The Dirk level impact on offense is already showing itself. The difference is on defense. Porzingis is an elite rim protector. He proved he had that upside last year and is continuing where he left off. That makes him better than Dirk.

Big claim he will be better than Dirk, who routinely elevated his game come playoff time, and is one of the best PF's to ever play.

I get you are trying to be bold, and likely believe it. But you are going to get crushed for it haha.

As I pointed out earlier, until these young pups get to the playoffs, we won't see who is who. It's why the Barkley/KG/Dirk/Duncan argument laid itself in order. Real men show up when it matters most. We don't even know which of Porz/Towns/Jokic/Embiid/Davis is real yet...

That being said, Towns has regressed to begin the year, and is even WORSE defensively. I didn't think that was possible...

What do you mean by real? If they stay healthy basically all of them should have successful careers. There are no busts on that list. Don't we already know that?

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 02:06 PM
Big claim he will be better than Dirk, who routinely elevated his game come playoff time, and is one of the best PF's to ever play.

I get you are trying to be bold, and likely believe it. But you are going to get crushed for it haha.

As I pointed out earlier, until these young pups get to the playoffs, we won't see who is who. It's why the Barkley/KG/Dirk/Duncan argument laid itself in order. Real men show up when it matters most. We don't even know which of Porz/Towns/Jokic/Embiid/Davis is real yet...

That being said, Towns has regressed to begin the year, and is even WORSE defensively. I didn't think that was possible...

I tend to agree. Anyone can put up big numbers in the regular season. But it's the real elite players who can elevate their game in a different atmosphere that is the playoffs.

Do you think Porzingis can do that?

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 02:13 PM
null

Do you think his production will fall off?

What sample size would make you believe his production is sustainable?

tp13baby
11-04-2017, 04:38 PM
People who actually watch basketball knew that Porzingis was the best pick at that spot (most wanted Okafor and Russell, though) because of his upside. Every player on this list would play much worse with Melo and Rose jacking up shots. Also, being the second best young player in the league means you have the potential. Please provide ANY evidence that anyone besides Giannis has more potential than Giannis. AD and Embiid are too injury prone to be drafted.

I was saying he was the least impressive through 2 seasons. Also said Melo could of been a cancer but wanted to see more than a 7 game sample size determining that. He has been the best big but a 7 game stretch isnít me putting him second.

Do you think his production will fall off?

What sample size would make you believe his production is sustainable?

I tend to believe he will fall off slightly. The numbers he has put up has been excellent. Usage rate and consistency for a full year at 35 percent is a ton to ask for a young player. But give me half a year and I will completely shut up about sample size.

Taking nothing away from Porzingas at all. Playing at this rate I would redo my list completely with him being 2nd.

KnicksorBust
11-04-2017, 05:11 PM
null

Fair. I wouldn't be shocked to see a dip in scoring as teams game plan more against him. I see him mid 20s or better but it is hard to keep up 30ppg pace.

cheetos185
11-04-2017, 07:24 PM
What KP is doing right now imagine if the Knicks had actual PG lol.

More-Than-Most
11-05-2017, 05:26 AM
What KP is doing right now imagine if the Knicks had actual PG lol.

it would take away from what he is doing much like if giannis had one... both these guys are in the best place possible... they get the ball all the time and take all the shots etc.... having a PG would help the team but you are delusional if you think he would be doing this statistically... he takes a ton of shots per game... its working for the knicks against bad teams and its smart but when they actually put players around him what he is doing now wont be sustainable.

KnicksorBust
11-05-2017, 07:04 AM
What KP is doing right now imagine if the Knicks had actual PG lol.

it would take away from what he is doing much like if giannis had one... both these guys are in the best place possible... they get the ball all the time and take all the shots etc.... having a PG would help the team but you are delusional if you think he would be doing this statistically... he takes a ton of shots per game... its working for the knicks against bad teams and its smart but when they actually put players around him what he is doing now wont be sustainable.

Only if you look at it from the most narrow and superficial perspective. WHAT IS HIS PPG? I already posted this earlier in the thread but he is assisted on a lower percentage of his points than all the other bigs. The idea that adding talent to a mostly talentless team would hurt him is ridiculous. A quality PG would make his life so much easier

MTone8788
11-05-2017, 08:00 AM
You take the guy who has the most impact on the team winning, Embiid.


What you guys will say, "he's injury prone, only played a handful of games, blah blah blah". I don't care. Take a chance.

He's the best on the board. See ya.

KnicksorBust
11-05-2017, 09:12 AM
You take the guy who has the most impact on the team winning, Embiid.


What you guys will say, "he's injury prone, only played a handful of games, blah blah blah". I don't care. Take a chance.

He's the best on the board. See ya.

You take the guy who is literally carrying his team on his back at 29ppg, Porzingis.

ewing
11-05-2017, 09:24 AM
it would take away from what he is doing much like if giannis had one... both these guys are in the best place possible... they get the ball all the time and take all the shots etc.... having a PG would help the team but you are delusional if you think he would be doing this statistically... he takes a ton of shots per game... its working for the knicks against bad teams and its smart but when they actually put players around him what he is doing now wont be sustainable.

It depends on what type of point guard. A jump shooting pick and roll point guard would help KP get easier looks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nycericanguy
11-05-2017, 09:29 AM
it would take away from what he is doing much like if giannis had one... both these guys are in the best place possible... they get the ball all the time and take all the shots etc.... having a PG would help the team but you are delusional if you think he would be doing this statistically... he takes a ton of shots per game... its working for the knicks against bad teams and its smart but when they actually put players around him what he is doing now wont be sustainable.

gotta agree here, and Jack has been getting him the ball. Maybe a good PG would get him some easier buckets and increase his FG%, but overall it would take away some of his volume. Right now he's getting the ball on the block and in the post and going to work.

MTone8788
11-05-2017, 09:35 AM
You take the guy who is literally carrying his team on his back at 29ppg, Porzingis.

KP is playing great. Also takes 7 more shots a game. Embiid is a better defender, rebounder and passer. He needs to cut down on turnovers though. I still take Embiid.

MagicBucsSox
11-05-2017, 09:53 AM
They all have far better surrounding talent than KP

Hustla23
11-05-2017, 10:50 AM
KP is playing great. Also takes 7 more shots a game. Embiid is a better defender, rebounder and passer. He needs to cut down on turnovers though. I still take Embiid.

Embiid is the most talented player on this poll, no question. Hopefully injuries aren't a factor in the future, otherwise I can see him having a Hakeem-esque career. I'm a little curious as to how you figure Embiid to be the better defender. Just simply via the eye test? Or do you have some stats/analytics to back up what you're saying. Because KP is a heck of a defender in his own right.

MTone8788
11-05-2017, 11:05 AM
Embiid is the most talented player on this poll, no question. Hopefully injuries aren't a factor in the future, otherwise I can see him having a Hakeem-esque career. I'm a little curious as to how you figure Embiid to be the better defender. Just simply via the eye test? Or do you have some stats/analytics to back up what you're saying. Because KP is a heck of a defender in his own right.

I don't need to copy and paste stats when you can easily look it up yourself or watch.

Sixers are significantly better with Embiid on the floor, especially defensively. He defends well one on one, but also alters and changes and deters a lot of shots from other players coming into the paint. Also, he grabs more defensive rebounds.

Hustla23
11-05-2017, 11:47 AM
"I'm going to make claims but it's up to you to prove me right."

Gotcha.

cheetos185
11-05-2017, 11:52 AM
I know KPs rebounding numbers don't look that great but he's also playing next to Kanter who is a rebounding machine but I would still like to see KP box out more and grab more defensive rebounds.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

bklynny67
11-05-2017, 12:11 PM
KP is playing great. Also takes 7 more shots a game. Embiid is a better defender, rebounder and passer. He needs to cut down on turnovers though. I still take Embiid.

Embiid is the most talented player on this poll, no question. Hopefully injuries aren't a factor in the future, otherwise I can see him having a Hakeem-esque career. I'm a little curious as to how you figure Embiid to be the better defender. Just simply via the eye test? Or do you have some stats/analytics to back up what you're saying. Because KP is a heck of a defender in his own right.
Hakeem? Really? You see him being one of the best centers in NBA history?

Even if healthy, just no....

Hustla23
11-05-2017, 12:19 PM
Hakeem? Really? You see him being one of the best centers in NBA history?

Even if healthy, just no....

I've actually watched Sixers games just to watch Embiid play. Not sure how much exposure you've gotten.

But just based on what I've seen and my personal opinion Embiid is a special player who really doesn't have any weaknesses or holes in his game. If healthy, he can be a top 3-5 player in the league easily.

warfelg
11-05-2017, 12:20 PM
Embiid is the most talented player on this poll, no question. Hopefully injuries aren't a factor in the future, otherwise I can see him having a Hakeem-esque career. I'm a little curious as to how you figure Embiid to be the better defender. Just simply via the eye test? Or do you have some stats/analytics to back up what you're saying. Because KP is a heck of a defender in his own right.

Embiid: 32.9 DRB%; 2.3 STL%; 4.5 BLK%; DWS 0.4; DBPM 3.9; DRtg/100 Poss 99
Porzingis: 20.0 DRB%; 0.7 STL%; 5.1 BLK%; DWS 0.3; DBPM -1.9; DRtg/100 Poss 106

Embiid's defense is much better than Porzingis in a stat estimation.

Looking at on/off ratings:
Sixers are -11.7 defensively with Embiid off the court.
Knicks are a -4.4 defensively with Porzingis off the court.

Heck even offensively:
Sixers are a +7.4 with Embiid on the court.
Knicks are +2.2 with Porzingis on the court.

Even more evidence.

And you can see it watching. When Embiid is playing opposing teams settle for more jump shots than when any other center is on the court. Embiid has this gravity to him in the center where some opposing centers barely go into the paint to tempt him to move away.

Hustla23
11-05-2017, 12:49 PM
Embiid: 32.9 DRB%; 2.3 STL%; 4.5 BLK%; DWS 0.4; DBPM 3.9; DRtg/100 Poss 99
Porzingis: 20.0 DRB%; 0.7 STL%; 5.1 BLK%; DWS 0.3; DBPM -1.9; DRtg/100 Poss 106

Embiid's defense is much better than Porzingis in a stat estimation.

Looking at on/off ratings:
Sixers are -11.7 defensively with Embiid off the court.
Knicks are a -4.4 defensively with Porzingis off the court.

Heck even offensively:
Sixers are a +7.4 with Embiid on the court.
Knicks are +2.2 with Porzingis on the court.

Even more evidence.

And you can see it watching. When Embiid is playing opposing teams settle for more jump shots than when any other center is on the court. Embiid has this gravity to him in the center where some opposing centers barely go into the paint to tempt him to move away.

DWS/DRtg are essentially team metrics and I'm sure you know that. Embiid is a better rebounder for sure, although I have to attribute some of that to actually playing at C and manning the paint vs. being more perimeter oriented like KP is.

Good observation, though. Based on the little I've watched, Embiid is tough to score on in the paint but I don't think I've seen enough to form a decent opinion on his performance within schemes and overall team defense. I'm going to take a look at the situational per possession stats a little bit later and see what's up with that.

warfelg
11-05-2017, 01:03 PM
I mean sure they are team related metrics when you look at them alone, but when you combine them with looking at everything else they are part of the picture.

Like the DRtg/100 and use the on/off with it, and it goes to show how important Embiid is to that DRtg/100 number. Without Embiid and Porzingis the Sixers and Knicks are essentially the same team defensively, yet with them on the court Embiid does enough to create a 7 point gap on defense alone.

I could go to NBA.com's stats and being up their other stats, but I think it would just continue to paint the same picture.

I've had the same discussion with people about Richaun Holmes that I could apply to Prozingis. As a man defender he doesn't excite you as much as he should. He goes for a lot of blocks. Yet when he connects on those blocks, it's a highlight reel quality defensive play that almost everyone sees. And so that makes you think you are seeing quality defense.

KnickNyKnick
11-05-2017, 01:09 PM
why do people keep thinking the entire fanbase boo'ed KP at draft lol. People always boo at draft night, it starts with just a few who influence the rest to boo (hype up). but alot boo'ed cause they had no idea who he was..

tp13baby
11-05-2017, 02:12 PM
Embiid: 32.9 DRB%; 2.3 STL%; 4.5 BLK%; DWS 0.4; DBPM 3.9; DRtg/100 Poss 99
Porzingis: 20.0 DRB%; 0.7 STL%; 5.1 BLK%; DWS 0.3; DBPM -1.9; DRtg/100 Poss 106

Embiid's defense is much better than Porzingis in a stat estimation.

Looking at on/off ratings:
Sixers are -11.7 defensively with Embiid off the court.
Knicks are a -4.4 defensively with Porzingis off the court.

Heck even offensively:
Sixers are a +7.4 with Embiid on the court.
Knicks are +2.2 with Porzingis on the court.

Even more evidence.

And you can see it watching. When Embiid is playing opposing teams settle for more jump shots than when any other center is on the court. Embiid has this gravity to him in the center where some opposing centers barely go into the paint to tempt him to move away.

Saw this post and I was waiting for someone to discredit you. I know you canít look at stats as a tell all. But itís no fluke on why every sport has moved to analytics as a way to grade and judge players. Itís more telling than ďwatchersĒ want to give it credit. Thatís my issue with Porzingas, how much better is he really making the team.

Earlier we discussed how Jokic is a better offensive player than Porzingas all around, albeit we have to see him be the man before anything. Still a bottom half offensive rating team. Individually better than Jokic but the team aspect you would be 100 percent foolish right now not to take Jokic on the offensive end for a 48 minute period.


DWS/DRtg are essentially team metrics and I'm sure you know that. Embiid is a better rebounder for sure, although I have to attribute some of that to actually playing at C and manning the paint vs. being more perimeter oriented like KP is.

Good observation, though. Based on the little I've watched, Embiid is tough to score on in the paint but I don't think I've seen enough to form a decent opinion on his performance within schemes and overall team defense. I'm going to take a look at the situational per possession stats a little bit later and see what's up with that.

It is a team metric overall but you start to see general trends over a long term sample size. Your opinions of Jokic being a poor defender may go from trash to average and thatís totally a fine opinion but dating back to last year, all the way through this year, our defense shows to be much better with Jokic on the court.

cheetos185
11-05-2017, 02:16 PM
Saw this post and I was waiting for someone to discredit you. I know you canít look at stats as a tell all. But itís no fluke on why every sport has moved to analytics as a way to grade and judge players. Itís more telling than ďwatchersĒ want to give it credit. Thatís my issue with Porzingas, how much better is he really making the team.

Earlier we discussed how Jokic is a better offensive player than Porzingas all around, albeit we have to see him be the man before anything. Still a bottom half offensive rating team. Individually better than Jokic but the team aspect you would be 100 percent foolish right now not to take Jokic on the offensive end for a 48 minute period.



It is a team metric overall but you start to see general trends over a long term sample size. Your opinions of Jokic being a poor defender may go from trash to average and thatís totally a fine opinion but dating back to last year, all the way through this year, our defense shows to be much better with Jokic on the court.Denver has better guards than knicks do I would like to see your boy jokic rack up assist playing with jack sessions Baker and frank as his guards lol but yea KP is not really a good passer I don't see him as passing big like gasol ever not that I want my best scorer to pass when he's a matchup nightmare for anyone one on one.

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warfelg
11-05-2017, 02:38 PM
Saw this post and I was waiting for someone to discredit you. I know you canít look at stats as a tell all. But itís no fluke on why every sport has moved to analytics as a way to grade and judge players. Itís more telling than ďwatchersĒ want to give it credit. Thatís my issue with Porzingas, how much better is he really making the team.

The thing with analytic stats (and I do say this often) is you can't look at any one in a vacuum.

It's easy to pick Porzingis's BLK% and argue he's a better defender because of it. But when you look at that overall picture of what's going on there, it's undeniable that Embiid's ~13 point advantage in the rebounding and ~1.5 point advantage in steals far outweighs the points saved by the 0.6 point advantage Porzingis has in blocks. The DWS and DRtg, as I said, have a far larger impact when you realize with the on/off that the Knicks and Sixers are similar defensive teams without their big on the floor, and Embiid is just saving us 7 points more over 100 possessions becomes an even bigger tell of his defensive advantage.

Stats are becoming an important way or taking in the parts of the game you might not be watching and putting into context what is going on play on and play out. Take the comment of "haven't seen enough to understand within scheme and overall defense". The stats show that without Embiid or Noel, the Sixers were one of the worst defensive teams (and that's with one of the best defensive wings in the game). Put Noel in and the Sixers suddenly became a boarderline top 10 defensive team. Put in Embiid over that and we are nearing top 5 defensive team status (this year is taking a hit thanks to starting JJ Redick and Jerryd Bayless). That tells me everything I need to know about those guys.

warfelg
11-05-2017, 02:40 PM
Denver has better guards than knicks do I would like to see your boy jokic rack up assist playing with jack sessions Baker and frank as his guards lol but yea KP is not really a good passer I don't see him as passing big like gasol ever not that I want my best scorer to pass when he's a matchup nightmare for anyone one on one.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

The issue with the passing becomes the same thing I worried about with Okafor/Embiid. When teams start doubling you, are you able to get it out and to the open man.

Okafor never improved on that.

Embiid has and his assist numbers are way up this year because when he gets doubled he sees it and can fire it to where the double comes from really quickly.

If Porzingis can start to do that out of the double team then he can be onto something.

Hustla23
11-05-2017, 03:20 PM
Saw this post and I was waiting for someone to discredit you. I know you canít look at stats as a tell all. But itís no fluke on why every sport has moved to analytics as a way to grade and judge players. Itís more telling than ďwatchersĒ want to give it credit. Thatís my issue with Porzingas, how much better is he really making the team.

Earlier we discussed how Jokic is a better offensive player than Porzingas all around, albeit we have to see him be the man before anything. Still a bottom half offensive rating team. Individually better than Jokic but the team aspect you would be 100 percent foolish right now not to take Jokic on the offensive end for a 48 minute period.



It is a team metric overall but you start to see general trends over a long term sample size. Your opinions of Jokic being a poor defender may go from trash to average and thatís totally a fine opinion but dating back to last year, all the way through this year, our defense shows to be much better with Jokic on the court.

There's no problem with any stat in and of itself. People who try to bash a stat probably don't have a good grasp of what they're trying to argue. A statistic only provides a bit of information; it's the interpretations of said statistic that can be faulty or sound.

DRtg and DWS are entirely circumstantial. The formula is literally something like opponents scoring/100 possessions or something like that. The only reasonable interpretation you can conclude from that is that when a particular player is on the floor, the opposing team happens to score at a certain rate, which is evidence for sure, but it's not strong enough evidence for the claims that were made. For example, warfelg tries to throw in that Embiid has a higher +/- offensively than KP. If he were to claim that that made Embiid a better offensive player, then that would be highly debatable, given the fact that if you isolate their individual offensive contributions, KP has him beat (in terms of ORtg/OWS.)

I have no issue with Embiid being a better defensive player than KP or Jokic being a better offensive player, it doesn't make sense to be emotionally invested over it lol. As long as a statistically sound argument can be made, then it's worth a read. If Embiid's individual situational stats are better than KP's, along with the better team stats, then he's doing a better job on the defensive end most likely.

ewing
11-05-2017, 04:13 PM
The issue with the passing becomes the same thing I worried about with Okafor/Embiid. When teams start doubling you, are you able to get it out and to the open man.

Okafor never improved on that.

Embiid has and his assist numbers are way up this year because when he gets doubled he sees it and can fire it to where the double comes from really quickly.

If Porzingis can start to do that out of the double team then he can be onto something.

Ideally KP catches the ball in a spot where he can shoot it in his defenders face before a double gets there. He does need to improve his passing but I donít see him ever racking up assists bc he should be scoring the ball before double gets to him


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KnicksorBust
11-05-2017, 04:21 PM
People expecting better passing numbers from Porzingis don't understand his role on the team. Look at Dirk's assist numbers to get an idea.

KnickNyKnick
11-05-2017, 04:23 PM
Not sure how Embiid is in the discussion quite yet. As good as he's played he hasn't played enough to hit any kind of wall. His 39 Total career games Compared to 146 KP should disqualify him for now. I'd like to see him go 60+ games and see how/if he slows down.

tp13baby
11-05-2017, 04:28 PM
Denver has better guards than knicks do I would like to see your boy jokic rack up assist playing with jack sessions Baker and frank as his guards lol but yea KP is not really a good passer I don't see him as passing big like gasol ever not that I want my best scorer to pass when he's a matchup nightmare for anyone one on one.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

Doesnít take away the fact we were 23rd before We ran our offense through Jokic. After we started running had Our offense through him(starting him) we were 2nd in the league during that span. It doesnít take a skilled guard to know how to backcut and cut off screens. Denver is one of the worst mid range shooting teams over the past year. We are terrible with iso. We score only by moving the ball and Jokic is the best about that. Every team challenges him to shoot outside and itís not like he canít, he just understands layups are a higher percentage.

Speaks volumes when Jokic doesnít really post up nor do we have any post players but we led the league in points in the paint last year, we are 3rd right now.

Knicks guards are pretty bad but we have really no play makers at the guard position, just good cutters without the ball and pretty good pick and roll/pop decision makers. No iso scorers except Barton but he is a pain to watch half the time

Hustla23
11-05-2017, 04:58 PM
People expecting better passing numbers from Porzingis don't understand his role on the team. Look at Dirk's assist numbers to get an idea.

Some guys are just scorers primarily. There's nothing wrong with that so long as you're putting up points efficiently. Dirk wasn't exactly a playmaker. He got the ball on the elbow and went to work.

I don't think KP has the tools to be an effective playmaker, honestly, but again that's fine as long as he's scoring like a maniac. If he can kick out of a double team and not lose the ball, that's good enough.

Heediot
11-05-2017, 05:24 PM
People expecting better passing numbers from Porzingis don't understand his role on the team. Look at Dirk's assist numbers to get an idea.

dirk knew how to set up the defense and defender. his assists tally weren't high but he knew how to dictate and control a game better then a lot of big men. these things go unoticed on the stay sheet. he wasn't a great Passer but he could read the defense pretty good which helped with the flow of an offense.

KnicksorBust
11-05-2017, 05:32 PM
People expecting better passing numbers from Porzingis don't understand his role on the team. Look at Dirk's assist numbers to get an idea.

Some guys are just scorers primarily. There's nothing wrong with that so long as you're putting up points efficiently. Dirk wasn't exactly a playmaker. He got the ball on the elbow and went to work.

I don't think KP has the tools to be an effective playmaker, honestly, but again that's fine as long as he's scoring like a maniac. If he can kick out of a double team and not lose the ball, that's good enough.

It is going to sound insane but he is like Shaq... let me explain lol...

When he catches, it is not a long iso play. It is a shot or a drive and shoot. He is not creating by design. Theoretically the absolute peak of his offense he would average like 3.5apg.

warfelg
11-05-2017, 05:43 PM
Ideally KP catches the ball in a spot where he can shoot it in his defenders face before a double gets there. He does need to improve his passing but I donít see him ever racking up assists bc he should be scoring the ball before double gets to him


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I'm not saying he needs to be some super passer, but just recognizing it is going to help him dramatically.

Heediot
11-05-2017, 05:55 PM
It is going to sound insane but he is like Shaq... let me explain lol...

When he catches, it is not a long iso play. It is a shot or a drive and shoot. He is not creating by design. Theoretically the absolute peak of his offense he would average like 3.5apg.

I think if he was a more capable play maker they would five him more leeway to facilitate with the lack of play makers on nyk. I think nyk is playing to what he does well which is score in from anywhere on the floor but.

as for shaq. his ability to draw doubles and triples opened up.the floor for the shooters so when he wasn't scoring or getting hacked he ball reach the 3 pt. specialists. Shaw got doubled so much that he naturally developed a solid feel for how teams were defending him.

cheetos185
11-05-2017, 07:01 PM
Doesnít take away the fact we were 23rd before We ran our offense through Jokic. After we started running had Our offense through him(starting him) we were 2nd in the league during that span. It doesnít take a skilled guard to know how to backcut and cut off screens. Denver is one of the worst mid range shooting teams over the past year. We are terrible with iso. We score only by moving the ball and Jokic is the best about that. Every team challenges him to shoot outside and itís not like he canít, he just understands layups are a higher percentage.

Speaks volumes when Jokic doesnít really post up nor do we have any post players but we led the league in points in the paint last year, we are 3rd right now.

Knicks guards are pretty bad but we have really no play makers at the guard position, just good cutters without the ball and pretty good pick and roll/pop decision makers. No iso scorers except Barton but he is a pain to watch half the time

Denver guards can score in the paint pretty well and that has nothing to do with jokic when they played the knicks even with jokic on bench the ****ers couldn't miss a single shot in the paint or outside and knicks have been pretty decent defensive team this year even though our pgs stink on offense they are resonable on defensive end. Even if KP was great passer he couldn't rack assist because the knicks guards are pathetic on offense.

KnicksorBust
11-05-2017, 11:06 PM
null

40 points 6 blocks. You can wait half a season if you want but this is real.

ewing
11-05-2017, 11:10 PM
Monster

PC
11-06-2017, 12:54 AM
40 points 6 blocks. You can wait half a season if you want but this is real.

Fun fact: those 6 blocks today are more than Jokic has all season.

bootsy
11-06-2017, 02:53 AM
Not sure how Embiid is in the discussion quite yet. As good as he's played he hasn't played enough to hit any kind of wall. His 39 Total career games Compared to 146 KP should disqualify him for now. I'd like to see him go 60+ games and see how/if he slows down.

He's in the discussion because he's ****ing good and deserves to be. Who cares how many games he's played, he's produced big time in the games he's played. STFU you silly Knick fan.

More-Than-Most
11-06-2017, 03:58 AM
He's in the discussion because he's ****ing good and deserves to be. Who cares how many games he's played, he's produced big time in the games he's played. STFU you silly Knick fan.

also because nobody on this list comes close to him defensively... people get mad but all the stats/eye test etc show exactly how godly he is defensively.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 12:22 PM
I think if he was a more capable play maker they would five him more leeway to facilitate with the lack of play makers on nyk. I think nyk is playing to what he does well which is score in from anywhere on the floor but.

as for shaq. his ability to draw doubles and triples opened up.the floor for the shooters so when he wasn't scoring or getting hacked he ball reach the 3 pt. specialists. Shaw got doubled so much that he naturally developed a solid feel for how teams were defending him.

That doesn't make sense. I just explained why. It's the same reason Shaq wasn't used as facilitator. When a dominate scorer catches in a position to score they should look to score. I agree Porzingis is not elite at passing out of double teams yet but neither was Dirk or Shaq by year 3. He's already far ahead of the curve in terms of scoring production and rim protection. His ability to get 1-2 more apg is probably only hole in his game and that's such a small flaw when you factor in carrying a team at 22 years old with 30ppg and defense.


Fun fact: those 6 blocks today are more than Jokic has all season.

The shame is that true basketball fans love Jokic for his passing but he's not on Porzingis level defensively or even close as a scorer.

KnickNyKnick
11-06-2017, 01:20 PM
He's in the discussion because he's ****ing good and deserves to be. Who cares how many games he's played, he's produced big time in the games he's played. STFU you silly Knick fan.

hahaha kinda struck a chord there eh. Years of tanking is angering i guess. Embid is good no one denied that. But there's a reason why he has 1 vote on here. who knows how "good" he is in a full season. NO ONE knows. Guy hasn't even experience normal wear n tear of a full season. So saying how many games he played is irrelevant is absurd. Its a whole different experience when a full season is played, especially for a big...

Again, He hasnt had a chance to burn out. His numbers are good for now but not enough sample size to determine how "good" he is compared to the rest of the list here.

A good player can seem Great when hes playing every game fresh from being rested days prior.
(this was the case a lot last year).

So to answer the thread question, id gladly take KP or Gannis. Embid is last on my list as per who would i draft. So I'd STFU until hes played a full season without the frequent time off/rest

KnickNyKnick
11-06-2017, 01:24 PM
also because nobody on this list comes close to him defensively... people get mad but all the stats/eye test etc show exactly how godly he is defensively.

well the stats are showing me this year Kristaps has more blocks per game, Pts. So i guess KP is beyond Godly?

warfelg
11-06-2017, 01:37 PM
well the stats are showing me this year Kristaps has more blocks per game, Pts. So i guess KP is beyond Godly?

Because a block is all that matter in defense. Nothing about Embiid giving up a lower FG%; more steals; more DRB; overall better DBPM impact and on/off defensive impact.

Heediot
11-06-2017, 01:41 PM
That doesn't make sense. I just explained why. It's the same reason Shaq wasn't used as facilitator. When a dominate scorer catches in a position to score they should look to score. I agree Porzingis is not elite at passing out of double teams yet but neither was Dirk or Shaq by year 3. He's already far ahead of the curve in terms of scoring production and rim protection. His ability to get 1-2 more apg is probably only hole in his game and that's such a small flaw when you factor in carrying a team at 22 years old with 30ppg and defense.



The shame is that true basketball fans love Jokic for his passing but he's not on Porzingis level defensively or even close as a scorer.

yeah early on I see what your claiming with shaq and dirk i don't think kp develops or has that natural feel later on. he just seems like a mechanical player that works hard on his craft and is starting to show execution on the floor. we will swe I could be wrong.

as for jokic he is a capable.scorer but when he facilitates that offense runs better. it's like cp3. the team is better off when cp is controlling the game. it's just jokic can do it with limited usage and time of possession which makes him so effective for a big man. he doesn't need the ball as often as others to make a positive play.

xxplayerxx23
11-06-2017, 01:46 PM
I don't need to copy and paste stats when you can easily look it up yourself or watch.

Sixers are significantly better with Embiid on the floor, especially defensively. He defends well one on one, but also alters and changes and deters a lot of shots from other players coming into the paint. Also, he grabs more defensive rebounds.

And what do you think the Knicks are with KP on the floor. Without embiid the sixers still have a team that could scratch 20+ wins . Without KP Knicks might Win 8 games if that

xxplayerxx23
11-06-2017, 01:47 PM
I know KPs rebounding numbers don't look that great but he's also playing next to Kanter who is a rebounding machine but I would still like to see KP box out more and grab more defensive rebounds.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

KP sometimes don't even go for the board when kanter is there lol

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 03:17 PM
yeah early on I see what your claiming with shaq and dirk i don't think kp develops or has that natural feel later on. he just seems like a mechanical player that works hard on his craft and is starting to show execution on the floor. we will swe I could be wrong.

as for jokic he is a capable.scorer but when he facilitates that offense runs better. it's like cp3. the team is better off when cp is controlling the game. it's just jokic can do it with limited usage and time of possession which makes him so effective for a big man. he doesn't need the ball as often as others to make a positive play.

It's an interesting debate because on offense would you rather have Dirk or Kevin Garnett? Kevin Garnett could do a little bit of everything offensively and was a phenomenal passer. Dirk was just a flat out elite scorer. Neither is a bad option but I'll take Dirk just like I would take Porzingis over Jokic.

Giannis94
11-06-2017, 03:19 PM
Why is everyone clamoring over Porzy. Honestly, the best player on this list is Embiid. I'm shocked about the lack of conversations re: him. Not getting the respekt he deserves, especially considering all factors.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 03:21 PM
KP sometimes don't even go for the board when kanter is there lol

Yeah I'm torn how to handle these criticisms about his rebounding. I don't see him as a poor rebounder. Raw rebounding stats can be misleading when there are two capable big men on the floor. The Knicks are the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA right now with a differential of almost +6 rebounds per game. If he and Kanter are producing strong rebounding differentials as a duo isn't that more important than raw individual stats?

MTone8788
11-06-2017, 03:32 PM
well the stats are showing me this year Kristaps has more blocks per game, Pts. So i guess KP is beyond Godly?

Also plays more minutes and takes more shots. And did you consider that maybe opposing teams take it in the paint less when Embiid is on the floor? Therefore there's less opportunity to actually block someone. And, what about the amount of shots he alters?

No one is denying KP is a great player and one of the top young guys in the league. Who you take is really a preference, I just feel Embiid impacts the game positively more than anyone else. And that's including playing under 30 minutes and turning the ball over a ton.

HeartOfStarks
11-06-2017, 03:39 PM
Also plays more minutes and takes more shots. And did you consider that maybe opposing teams take it in the paint less when Embiid is on the floor? Therefore there's less opportunity to actually block someone. And, what about the amount of shots he alters?

No one is denying KP is a great player and one of the top young guys in the league. Who you take is really a preference, I just feel Embiid impacts the game positively more than anyone else. And that's including playing under 30 minutes and turning the ball over a ton.

Everyone plays more minutes than Embiid, dude has played like 40 games in his entire career.

I hope he can stay healthy, and genuinely believe he'll be a monster for years to come if he can. But until you can play 65+ games a season every year, you're just not a big impact guy, regardless of how great he COULD be.

I like Embiid, a lot. Hopefully he actually plays most of this season and continues that from here on out.

MTone8788
11-06-2017, 04:04 PM
Everyone plays more minutes than Embiid, dude has played like 40 games in his entire career.

I hope he can stay healthy, and genuinely believe he'll be a monster for years to come if he can. But until you can play 65+ games a season every year, you're just not a big impact guy, regardless of how great he COULD be.

I like Embiid, a lot. Hopefully he actually plays most of this season and continues that from here on out.


I agree with what you're saying. And I prefaced my original post acknowledging the risks of Embiid as the odds are clearly not in his favor. But a player of his caliber on both ends of the floor don't come along often, so it's a risk I'm okay with.

HeartOfStarks
11-06-2017, 04:22 PM
I agree with what you're saying. And I prefaced my original post acknowledging the risks of Embiid as the odds are clearly not in his favor. But a player of his caliber on both ends of the floor don't come along often, so it's a risk I'm okay with.

I hear you man - I think the 6ers are potentially in great shape if Embiid does stay healthy, and Fultz pans out, although I'm guessing with Simmons it almost seems that Fultz will be groomed as a 2? The roster is still slightly confusing to me but Simmons looks like an absolute beast and the team just has so much young talent. I'll be curious to see what happens with Okafor; I'm guessing though the 6ers will be a playoff team and maybe more for years to come if everything works out well in the coming seasons.

More-Than-Most
11-06-2017, 04:35 PM
Why is everyone clamoring over Porzy. Honestly, the best player on this list is Embiid. I'm shocked about the lack of conversations re: him. Not getting the respekt he deserves, especially considering all factors.

this site is better that you are now back... Remember we have a date when the sixers play the bucks on here like last time.

FOXHOUND
11-06-2017, 05:32 PM
"load management". how embarrassing


http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/11/06/joel-embiid-will-miss-game-jazz/

To be fair, he's averaging 27.6 MPG and they last played 3 days ago.

lol

ewing
11-06-2017, 05:34 PM
"load management". how embarrassing


http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/11/06/joel-embiid-will-miss-game-jazz/

smood999
11-06-2017, 05:36 PM
Yeah I'm torn how to handle these criticisms about his rebounding. I don't see him as a poor rebounder. Raw rebounding stats can be misleading when there are two capable big men on the floor. The Knicks are the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA right now with a differential of almost +6 rebounds per game. If he and Kanter are producing strong rebounding differentials as a duo isn't that more important than raw individual stats?

He struggles rebounding regardless of who he's next to. It isn't a Kanter thing and if the season were to end today, he would have his career high in rebounding (7.8).

HeartOfStarks
11-06-2017, 05:46 PM
He struggles rebounding regardless of who he's next to. It isn't a Kanter thing and if the season were to end today, he would have his career high in rebounding (7.8).

He's definitely not a great rebounder for his height, but I'm also guessing the fact he plays on the perimeter, even on D often when guarding stretch 4s, has an impact on his overall numbers vs. a true center. Maybe I'm off on that but I'd think it could very well come into play when considering all factors.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 06:04 PM
Yeah I'm torn how to handle these criticisms about his rebounding. I don't see him as a poor rebounder. Raw rebounding stats can be misleading when there are two capable big men on the floor. The Knicks are the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA right now with a differential of almost +6 rebounds per game. If he and Kanter are producing strong rebounding differentials as a duo isn't that more important than raw individual stats?

He struggles rebounding regardless of who he's next to. It isn't a Kanter thing and if the season were to end today, he would have his career high in rebounding (7.8).

But you are labeling his "struggles" based solely on rpg. Great example Robin Lopez was good at boxing out and keeping other bigs away from offensive boards but he never had gaudy rebounding numbers. Would you say a player like that "struggles"? Do you really think the Knicks are an elite rebounding team because of Enes Kanter?

valade16
11-06-2017, 06:07 PM
Yeah I'm torn how to handle these criticisms about his rebounding. I don't see him as a poor rebounder. Raw rebounding stats can be misleading when there are two capable big men on the floor. The Knicks are the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA right now with a differential of almost +6 rebounds per game. If he and Kanter are producing strong rebounding differentials as a duo isn't that more important than raw individual stats?

More importantly. Who gives a **** if he's not a great passer or rebounder at this point? He is scoring 44.5 pts per 100 possessions/30 PPG and yes, it's on a bad team where he may get inflated opportunities to score, but he's got a 59% TS%.

Here is the list of players who scored 30+ PPG at 22 years or younger since 1980:

Kevin Durant
LeBron James


That's pretty remarkable. Let's see if he can keep this torrid scoring pace up, but regardless, he is scoring at a historic pace for someone his age.

KnicksorBust
11-06-2017, 06:11 PM
Yeah I'm torn how to handle these criticisms about his rebounding. I don't see him as a poor rebounder. Raw rebounding stats can be misleading when there are two capable big men on the floor. The Knicks are the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA right now with a differential of almost +6 rebounds per game. If he and Kanter are producing strong rebounding differentials as a duo isn't that more important than raw individual stats?

More importantly. Who gives a **** if he's not a great passer or rebounder at this point? He is scoring 44.5 pts per 100 possessions/30 PPG and yes, it's on a bad team where he may get inflated opportunities to score, but he's got a 59% TS%.

Here is the list of players who scored 30+ PPG at 22 years or younger since 1980:

Kevin Durant
LeBron James


That's pretty remarkable. Let's see if he can keep this torrid scoring pace up, but regardless, he is scoring at a historic pace for someone his age.

Lmao. Hell yeah!! This post made my night. Wish I could pass you a beer through the internet. :cheers:

cheetos185
11-06-2017, 06:16 PM
KP doesn't struggle to get rebounds especially last night in 2nd half when kanter was on bench he boxed out turner and stopped the pacers from getting offensive rebounds leading to comeback. Right now when Kanter is on court he mostly focuses on getting the rebounds while KP focuses on altering shots and this two are match made perfectly for each other.