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View Full Version : How do the Celtics do this year?



Ty Fast
10-17-2017, 09:16 PM
Where do you think they will finish in the standings and how far do they go in the playoffs? I think the Wizards will finish 2nd and make the ECF now.

Stunner
10-17-2017, 09:20 PM
With Kyrie gunning away and Horford grabbing invisible rebounds they might be a 5-7th seed

redsox12
10-17-2017, 09:22 PM
6th at worst, Stevens will come up with a game plan, I believe in Tatum to pick up the slack and Kyrie will be fine.

Aust
10-17-2017, 10:33 PM
47 - 52 W's

Probably won't make the ECF unless the Hayward injury allows him to come back at the end of the season for a playoff push.

Dade County
10-17-2017, 10:37 PM
With Kyrie gunning away and Horford grabbing invisible rebounds they might be a 5-7th seed

I agree, somewhere in that 5th-7th range.

hugepatsfan
10-17-2017, 10:38 PM
Depends on how far along Brown and Tatum are. If those guys can be Bradley/Crowder caliber then theyíll probably be right around where they were last year - fighting to earn the right to get embarrassed in the ECF. If those guys take longer to develop they probably drop to 4 or 5 without much hope to make the ECF.

More-Than-Most
10-17-2017, 11:39 PM
2nd or 3rd in east but not a serious contender even with GH... I said all along they should have tried to get a noel and ignored GH on top of not trading for kyrie because they went away from what makes them so successful... DEFENSE... We will see though.

Aust
10-17-2017, 11:45 PM
2nd or 3rd in east but not a serious contender even with GH... I said all along they should have tried to get a noel and ignored GH on top of not trading for kyrie because they went away from what makes them so successful... DEFENSE... We will see though.

If you ran the C's, what would your starting 5 look like before trades, free agency and the draft, etc. What moves would you make?

ewing
10-18-2017, 01:08 AM
2nd or 3rd in east but not a serious contender even with GH... I said all along they should have tried to get a noel and ignored GH on top of not trading for kyrie because they went away from what makes them so successful... DEFENSE... We will see though.

well they punted for the future. this teams mgt is happy with second tier the next couple years and are looking for that to pay off after that. if they exceed that expectation great but they did not act like team trying to win a title now. They could have tried to compete this year, they decided not too.

More-Than-Most
10-18-2017, 02:58 AM
If you ran the C's, what would your starting 5 look like before trades, free agency and the draft, etc. What moves would you make?

I dont mind the tatum or the brown choices... both guys can grow... i was never ever a fan of brown nor tatum but the celtics could have steals there.... IT was extremely overrated and needed to be traded but not for a slightly taller slightly better defensive version whom is slightly worse offensively... On top of this giving up crowder and the pick? Na..

I would have Traded IT anywhere for anything... Someone would have bit... What they could would just be the added bonus... I would have never Signed GH because defensively he is bad as well... I would have kept crowder and Bradly and added a butler with that pick or IT... Butler or George on this team with crowder/Bradly/Tatum/Horford/Smart/Etc etc etc... puts them in a much better position. I dont buy that dallas would have matched for Noel esp if the dollars were big... Noel on the celtics does more for the celtics than GH does. Defense/Defense/Defense... Butler or George plus Noel coming in while keeping bradly/crowder with IT and that pick going out is a far better/deeper team than what they have.

More-Than-Most
10-18-2017, 03:00 AM
well they punted for the future. this teams mgt is happy with second tier the next couple years and are looking for that to pay off after that. if they exceed that expectation great but they did not act like team trying to win a title now. They could have tried to compete this year, they decided not too.

yea but why not just wait and keep that likely top 5 pick if you are punting for the future? They better Hope Brown doesnt become the best player on the team or Kyrie is gonna demand another trade lol. Kidding of course.

TylerSL
10-18-2017, 04:35 AM
Albeit it was before Hayward's injury, in my NBA predictions thread I picked the Celtics to get the #2 seed in the East and lose to the Wizards, who are the #3 seed, in the conference semis.

warfelg
10-18-2017, 07:20 AM
Depends on how far along Brown and Tatum are. If those guys can be Bradley/Crowder caliber then theyíll probably be right around where they were last year - fighting to earn the right to get embarrassed in the ECF. If those guys take longer to develop they probably drop to 4 or 5 without much hope to make the ECF.

Agreed 100%. All depends on how those two develop now. There were points where both looked good, points where both looked bad. I don't think the question is how good are they, but rather I would as how often do they avoid the bad. Beacuse it's going to happen.

I think the question is for Stevens, where do you go now?

Kryie-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Horford might be the best 5 you can put out there, but I think Smart off the bench is money for the Celtics.

Kyrie-Brown-Tatum-Yabu-Horford is a good lineup and slides some guys into more comfortable places, but 3 young starters, 2 rookies might not be the best of things to do with a contending team.

I wonder if about a month or two in they look for a trade for depth on the wing of someone who can give them minutes.

PAOboston
10-18-2017, 07:30 AM
Agreed 100%. All depends on how those two develop now. There were points where both looked good, points where both looked bad. I don't think the question is how good are they, but rather I would as how often do they avoid the bad. Beacuse it's going to happen.

I think the question is for Stevens, where do you go now?

Kryie-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Horford might be the best 5 you can put out there, but I think Smart off the bench is money for the Celtics.

Kyrie-Brown-Tatum-Yabu-Horford is a good lineup and slides some guys into more comfortable places, but 3 young starters, 2 rookies might not be the best of things to do with a contending team.

I wonder if about a month or two in they look for a trade for depth on the wing of someone who can give them minutes.Don't think Yabu starts. My bet Morris takes the spot when healthy. They might start Baynes and move Tatum to the wing until Morris is healthy.

Irving-Brown-Tatum-Morris-Horford

Stevens will likely adjust lineup based on matchups but I would expect that. I think Smart is too important to the 2nd unit now that they will need him as a 6th man.

Depth will be an issue. Asking a lot from a lot of young players. Rozier and Smart need to continue to lead off the bench. They won't have much scoring outside of them barring a trade or signing someone like Gerald Green.

On the plus side, plenty of minutes for Brown and Tatum this year. Guys will need to learn on the fly. Very impressed by Brown last night.

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warfelg
10-18-2017, 07:38 AM
Don't think Yabu starts. My bet Morris takes the spot when healthy. They might start Baynes and move Tatum to the wing until Morris is healthy.

Irving-Brown-Tatum-Morris-Horford

Stevens will likely adjust lineup based on matchups but I would expect that. I think Smart is too important to the 2nd unit now that they will need him as a 6th man.

Depth will be an issue. Asking a lot from a lot of young players. Rozier and Smart need to continue to lead off the bench. They won't have much scoring outside of them barring a trade or signing someone like Gerald Green.

On the plus side, plenty of minutes for Brown and Tatum this year. Guys will need to learn on the fly. Very impressed by Brown last night.

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I completely forgot about Morris TBH.

As important as Smart is to the second unit, might it be better for them with Tatum or Brown going against second units?

PAOboston
10-18-2017, 08:11 AM
I completely forgot about Morris TBH.

As important as Smart is to the second unit, might it be better for them with Tatum or Brown going against second units?Possibly but I would still bring Smart off the bench. He can run the offense. I think that us when he is most effective.

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Cal827
10-18-2017, 09:28 AM
The Hayward Injury probably puts Boston back in the category they were last year: Battling with the Wizards, Raptors and (new team) Bucks, but not really a contender this season. Regardless of who wins the Atlantic division, I think both don't make it past the 2nd round. (Wiz-Cavs ECF)

I guess the one thing that comes from the injury is now they'll see what they have in Jaylen Brown, and Tatum. As the team lacks depth, those two will get major minutes, which could help propel the team next season If Hayward can return and return near to what he was. If they both get better, then it would be easier to bring hayward back slowly to the lineup when/if he can.

If Tatum is as good as he was in the preseason, then Boston may be seated near the top of the East for the next few years after (Assuming Kyrie Marbury doesn't have a hissy fit and bolt :laugh2: )

prodigy
10-18-2017, 09:48 AM
Depends on how far along Brown and Tatum are. If those guys can be Bradley/Crowder caliber then theyíll probably be right around where they were last year - fighting to earn the right to get embarrassed in the ECF. If those guys take longer to develop they probably drop to 4 or 5 without much hope to make the ECF.

I love Brown, that kid can Ball. I would like for him to focus more on the game though. Sometimes i feel he just wants to talk trash and try to start fights then actually play. He needs to cool his temper and just focus. once he does that i think hes a freaking Stud. Might be one of my fav players to watch.

homie564
10-18-2017, 09:53 AM
The Hayward Injury probably puts Boston back in the category they were last year: Battling with the Wizards, Raptors and (new team) Bucks, but not really a contender this season. Regardless of who wins the Atlantic division, I think both don't make it past the 2nd round. (Wiz-Cavs ECF)

I guess the one thing that comes from the injury is now they'll see what they have in Jaylen Brown, and Tatum. As the team lacks depth, those two will get major minutes, which could help propel the team next season If Hayward can return and return near to what he was. If they both get better, then it would be easier to bring hayward back slowly to the lineup when/if he can.

If Tatum is as good as he was in the preseason, then Boston may be seated near the top of the East for the next few years after (Assuming Kyrie Marbury doesn't have a hissy fit and bolt :laugh2: )

Signs are actually pointing to Hayward being back at the end of the season. If they get him back this year and the kids develop a bit with this extra playing time, the Celtics could be for real


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prodigy
10-18-2017, 09:56 AM
Possibly but I would still bring Smart off the bench. He can run the offense. I think that us when he is most effective.

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Honestly i never understood the love affair for Smart. i think hes a very below avg player who wouldn't see much time on many teams. Hes a poor shooter. He got a couple baskets bull rushing into krover which are suppose to be offensive fouls starting this season. Brown, tatum and that young PG #12 need much more time.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 10:18 AM
Just to compare last year's rotation vs. this year's (w/out Hayward)...

PG last year was IT/Rozier. This year it's Kyrie/Rozier. Kyrie is better than IT, even if only marginally, and Rozier should be a year further in his development for at least marginal improvement.

SG last year was Bradley/Smart. This year it's Jaylen/Smart. Smart should be somewhat better than last year even if only marginally. Big question is Jaylen vs. Bradley. JB is super talented and could conceivably be better even in year 2 but he's also raw and could be worse. Bradley was solid but unspectacular.

SF last year was Crowder and young Jaylen Brown. This year it will be Tatum and I guess Semi Ojeye or maybe they bring Gerald Green back (have an extra roster spot even before the injury exception)? Brown wasn't anything special last year (though showed promise) so I'm not tooooo worried there. The big question here, as above with Bradley/Brown, is Tatum vs. Crowder. Crowder is another solid but unspectacular. Tatum is a super talented rookie who has skills better than Crowder right from day 1 but also will likely lack consistency.

PF last year was Amir Johnson and Jonas Jerebko (or small ball with Gerald Green at SF and Crowder here). This year it will be Marcus Morris and then some combination of Daniel Theis/Yabusele. Like with the young Jaylen comment above, Jerebko was nothing special though had some flashes of good moments. Same with Green when he was in there. So not too worried about that small role. Morris is an improvement over Amir IMO with how he looked to be breaking down last year.

Center last year was Horford and Olynyk. Now Horford and Baynes. Horford is Horford. Baynes is a worse player than Olynyk but does fill more of a need in terms of shot blocking rebounding.

So all in all, lots of changes, but on paper feels to me most are lateral or close to it. Last year they were top dawg in the race for #2 in the East that will get smacked by CLE in the ECF ahead of WAS/TOR/MIL. This year MIA is in that mix too and now BOS goes from potentially challenging CLE to back in that group. On paper I'd say they probably go to the bottom of it but there's somewhat realistic upside to get back up because Tatum/Brown have individual upside.

Definitely a huge blow but I think they'll still be competitive and entertaining in the way they were last year which is about as good as you can hope for losing your best player (unless you're GS who would still be the title favorite smfh).

Heediot
10-18-2017, 10:23 AM
Honestly i never understood the love affair for Smart. i think hes a very below avg player who wouldn't see much time on many teams. Hes a poor shooter. He got a couple baskets bull rushing into krover which are suppose to be offensive fouls starting this season. Brown, tatum and that young PG #12 need much more time.

His defense will give him playing time. Good point guard and guard defenders are not easy to find.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 10:26 AM
Honestly i never understood the love affair for Smart. i think hes a very below avg player who wouldn't see much time on many teams. Hes a poor shooter. He got a couple baskets bull rushing into krover which are suppose to be offensive fouls starting this season. Brown, tatum and that young PG #12 need much more time.

He's developed a lot as a playmaker to where I think he's an asset there. There was a play where he dove for a loose ball and it ended up getting a Brown 3 from the corner. He seems to always make plays like that. I know every fan loves to gush over their "grinders" and it usually annoys me but IDK... Smart seems to always make a ton of those plays. He's a bad shooter overall but he has relatively consistent stretch of looking decent where you hold out hope. He looked really good all preseason too with the lost weight helping his form. Obviously need to see it translate but 1 game isn't enough to say it hasn't.

At the very least, I think he's such a great defender and "winning plays" guy that he can play 20 or so minutes on a great team. But if he's gonna keep playing more then he needs more development for sure.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 10:30 AM
I love Brown, that kid can Ball. I would like for him to focus more on the game though. Sometimes i feel he just wants to talk trash and try to start fights then actually play. He needs to cool his temper and just focus. once he does that i think hes a freaking Stud. Might be one of my fav players to watch.

Never heard it described that way but makes some sense. He's reckless and out of control too much. But he's got that infectious competitiveness no doubt. I really feel he's on the path to be great though so hopefully this opportunity helps him develop. If him and Tatum can both make huge strides then in the grand scheme of things this could work out for BOS.

I always felt our real window to actually win would be an extended Kyrie, Brown and Tatum plus max FA(s) in 3-4 years. Hayward/Horford were just to give us a shot at CLE or the chance to rack up finals appearances if Lebron leaves CLE. Didn't think this group could actually win a title.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 10:32 AM
yea but why not just wait and keep that likely top 5 pick if you are punting for the future? They better Hope Brown doesnt become the best player on the team or Kyrie is gonna demand another trade lol. Kidding of course.

Kyrie is 25 which means he'll still be in his prime with Brown/Tatum/other youngsters. He's established but not old. They gave up the top 5 pick because they'd just rather bank on him in his prime then another young guy who they hope develops. I think that's why they were willing to give up for Kyrie what they wouldn't for Butler/PG who were a few years older. That few years just makes the difference of how long he fits into the window with the guys they hope develop.

mightybosstone
10-18-2017, 10:50 AM
I think some of you guys are either seriously overrating the rest of the East or seriously underrating the rest of the talent on that team. The wild cards are Tatum and Brown, but with Hayward out, those guys will have some legitimate opportunities to prove themselves this year. And at least one of them will pan out as an above average starter. Between Kyrie, Horford and those two, that's a top 5 team in the East.

Hell, I'd be a little surprised if they don't end up getting home-court advantage in Round 1. But they're still unquestionably a lock to make the playoffs.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-18-2017, 11:11 AM
Brown is getting tested. LeBron last night and Giannis tonight. Unless Celtics put Smart on Giannis?

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 11:14 AM
I think some of you guys are either seriously overrating the rest of the East or seriously underrating the rest of the talent on that team. The wild cards are Tatum and Brown, but with Hayward out, those guys will have some legitimate opportunities to prove themselves this year. And at least one of them will pan out as an above average starter. Between Kyrie, Horford and those two, that's a top 5 team in the East.

Hell, I'd be a little surprised if they don't end up getting home-court advantage in Round 1. But they're still unquestionably a lock to make the playoffs.

CLE's a lock for a top 4 seed obviously. And then between BOS/WAS/TOR/MIL/MIA I think there's good competition for the other 3 HCA seeds. With Tatum and Brown being such wildcards I think they could be anywhere from top of that group to bottom. The East is so weak though that I can't see them being lower.

Last year I thought they were a hair above those next tier East teams (MIA wasn't there last year but will be this year, IMO). Right now I'd say they're probably a hair behind but again, with upside to get back at or near the top depending on Brown/Tatum. Hayward going down just eliminates all possibility of challenging CLE, which really sucks. Even as a basketball fan in general I imagine people would have liked to see some semblance of competition in the ECF.

PAOboston
10-18-2017, 11:40 AM
Honestly i never understood the love affair for Smart. i think hes a very below avg player who wouldn't see much time on many teams. Hes a poor shooter. He got a couple baskets bull rushing into krover which are suppose to be offensive fouls starting this season. Brown, tatum and that young PG #12 need much more time.Just because he isn't a good shooter doesn't make him a bad player. He still impacts the game. Last night was a great example. He was a primary reason the C's roared back in the 3rd quarter.

Smart plays very good to elite defense and is versatile so he can switch on most guards and some wings. He makes plays that matter. I know that's not really quantifiable statistically but he steps up when it counts and he's a player that you would want on the floor in crunch time. He's also one of the main leaders in the team.

Ultimately, if he wants big money, I don't think he gets it from C's but he is definitely a useful player that would gets minutes on most teams.

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MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-18-2017, 11:54 AM
Just because he isn't a good shooter doesn't make him a bad player. He still impacts the game. Last night was a great example. He was a primary reason the C's roared back in the 3rd quarter.

Smart plays very good to elite defense and is versatile so he can switch on most guards and some wings. He makes plays that matter. I know that's not really quantifiable statistically but he steps up when it counts and he's a player that you would want on the floor in crunch time. He's also one of the main leaders in the team.

Ultimately, if he wants big money, I don't think he gets it from C's but he is definitely a useful player that would gets minutes on most teams.

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It be hard for the Celtics to keep Smart when they got $20M to $30M+ each tied to Irving, Hayward, Horford. Ainge knew he couldn't keep IT or Bradley.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 12:59 PM
It be hard for the Celtics to keep Smart when they got $20M to $30M+ each tied to Irving, Hayward, Horford. Ainge knew he couldn't keep IT or Bradley.

I've read only 4 teams have cap space next year on current projections. Teams could always make moves, but without as many teams to dump contracts to that gets tougher. I can't see teams going out of their way to clear room for Smart at that number. I still think Roberson's deal is what he'll end up with as a reference point. He'll get more because he at least contributes as a playmaker on offense rather than total nothingness like Roberson and he has more upside. But I don't see $20M for him barring huge improvement.

hugepatsfan
10-18-2017, 01:01 PM
I completely forgot about Morris TBH.

As important as Smart is to the second unit, might it be better for them with Tatum or Brown going against second units?

I think it depends on Rozier. If he can fully run the 2nd unit then Smart might be able to play with the starters. But until Rozier can consistently do that, they probably need the dual ball handlers to balance it out.

FlashBolt
10-18-2017, 01:13 PM
I couldn't tell how good Brown+Tatum are actually going to be because Cavs defense just sucked. Way too many lazy plays offensively from guys like Rose+Wade. Cavs gave up on the fast break and let Brown get way too many easy baskets. It had more to do with how bad the Cavs were playing overall than the Brown+Tatum playing very well. But from a physical and mental perspective, Brown seems like he will be a top two-way player in the league. He has a Jimmy Butler type game.

Celticsfan2007
10-18-2017, 01:18 PM
Early reports have Hayward coming back around March and in time for the playoffs... We'll see.

This team as constructed without Hayward is probably in the 4-6 range in the weak east, with a lot depending on the development and maturation of Brown/Tatum.

If Hayward comes back for the playoffs, this team is gonna be a scary 4-6 seed that the top teams will be looking to avoid.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-18-2017, 01:28 PM
Hard to project where the Celtics end up. Since they're pretty much a whole new team.

prodigy
10-18-2017, 01:51 PM
Just because he isn't a good shooter doesn't make him a bad player. He still impacts the game. Last night was a great example. He was a primary reason the C's roared back in the 3rd quarter.

Smart plays very good to elite defense and is versatile so he can switch on most guards and some wings. He makes plays that matter. I know that's not really quantifiable statistically but he steps up when it counts and he's a player that you would want on the floor in crunch time. He's also one of the main leaders in the team.

Ultimately, if he wants big money, I don't think he gets it from C's but he is definitely a useful player that would gets minutes on most teams.

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If he is one of ur main leaders then JR Smith's right, Celtics are not a threat. he was 5-16 last night and 3 of his baskets could've been off fouls. I get it, he's prob ur guys Delly. although Delly was a legit 3pt shooter for a season with the cavs lol. IDk i guess he does hustle i'll give him that. his minutes should be low though. Boston has some real talent that needs time.

More-Than-Most
10-18-2017, 04:46 PM
I couldn't tell how good Brown+Tatum are actually going to be because Cavs defense just sucked. Way too many lazy plays offensively from guys like Rose+Wade. Cavs gave up on the fast break and let Brown get way too many easy baskets. It had more to do with how bad the Cavs were playing overall than the Brown+Tatum playing very well. But from a physical and mental perspective, Brown seems like he will be a top two-way player in the league. He has a Jimmy Butler type game.

this is why i dont understand why people are in on the cavs... its like they refuse to realize they have Rose/Korver/Wade on the same team.... wade can defend some and will likely be ok come playoff time but Korver and rose are 2 of the worst defensive players in basketball... Then you add in a returning IT and you can just put green lights on the floor for the warriors/celtics and whomever else wants to score.

mrblisterdundee
10-18-2017, 07:44 PM
I think the Celtics will still compete with Toronto and Milwaukee for the second to fourth seed. We already saw them go toe-to-toe with the Cavaliers.
Brown can replace the impact of Crowder. Tatum's no Hayward, but he'll be a solid, do-it-all forward. Kyrie is every bit as offensively potent as Thomas. Smart was probably the team's best defender, even with Bradley.

Green_Monster
10-18-2017, 08:40 PM
I dont mind the tatum or the brown choices... both guys can grow... i was never ever a fan of brown nor tatum but the celtics could have steals there.... IT was extremely overrated and needed to be traded but not for a slightly taller slightly better defensive version whom is slightly worse offensively... On top of this giving up crowder and the pick? Na..

I would have Traded IT anywhere for anything... Someone would have bit... What they could would just be the added bonus... I would have never Signed GH because defensively he is bad as well... I would have kept crowder and Bradly and added a butler with that pick or IT... Butler or George on this team with crowder/Bradly/Tatum/Horford/Smart/Etc etc etc... puts them in a much better position. I dont buy that dallas would have matched for Noel esp if the dollars were big... Noel on the celtics does more for the celtics than GH does. Defense/Defense/Defense... Butler or George plus Noel coming in while keeping bradly/crowder with IT and that pick going out is a far better/deeper team than what they have.

Lots of lolís in here but my favorite is you calling Hayward bad defensively.

Aust
10-18-2017, 09:02 PM
Lots of lolís in here but my favorite is you calling Hayward bad defensively.

Yeah I always thought he was a plus defender.

BSF101
10-18-2017, 10:04 PM
With Heyward a 58 win team
Without Heyward a 37/38 win team.

Cal827
10-19-2017, 12:06 AM
Signs are actually pointing to Hayward being back at the end of the season. If they get him back this year and the kids develop a bit with this extra playing time, the Celtics could be for real


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That's great news, especially from what we all saw happen on the court. Question for you/other Celtic fans: You mention at the end of the season, would you consider letting him for the season and letting him get to 100% and go all in next year, or do you think that him getting back on the court this year would be better (as in, he may not be very effective in the playoffs, but you get him back in the thick of things and maybe reduce the rust that he might have at the start of next year)?

LaVar Ball
10-19-2017, 12:42 AM
8th seed without Hayward. Kyrie is going to get exposed.

More-Than-Most
10-19-2017, 01:09 AM
hayward is in no way shape or form a good defender and yes... kyrie will get exposed.

PAOboston
10-19-2017, 07:55 AM
That's great news, especially from what we all saw happen on the court. Question for you/other Celtic fans: You mention at the end of the season, would you consider letting him for the season and letting him get to 100% and go all in next year, or do you think that him getting back on the court this year would be better (as in, he may not be very effective in the playoffs, but you get him back in the thick of things and maybe reduce the rust that he might have at the start of next year)?For me, I would just let him heal and rehab this year. No real point in rushing him back. And, even if he somehow recovers by March for example, you still have to get him into game shape and integrate him into a team that has played without him all season almost at the end of the season.

Plus, at this point, Brown and Tatum will get a room of minutes so it could expedite their development as well. Brown has been pretty great through 2 games.

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warfelg
10-19-2017, 08:10 AM
Hayward's agent put out a statement last night that Gordon is out for the year. Which is smart. Let him take his time. Get back slowly, make sure everything is sound. No need to rush it; where it can be physiologically challenging for Gordon to come back and not be tentative. I think coming back in training camp where they can push him slowly and let him work those demons out is better.

prodigy
10-19-2017, 09:16 AM
this is why i dont understand why people are in on the cavs... its like they refuse to realize they have Rose/Korver/Wade on the same team.... wade can defend some and will likely be ok come playoff time but Korver and rose are 2 of the worst defensive players in basketball... Then you add in a returning IT and you can just put green lights on the floor for the warriors/celtics and whomever else wants to score.

Rose played very well against Irving. Including excellent defense when Irving was driving to the rim. Irving is a very good shooter and some of those 3's he hit were contested. Cavs left brown open a lot as planned to make him beat them. Which he did play very well so they will change that game plan. Although Brown did choke down the stretch.

Celtics shot 40% from the field and 25% from 3... I don't think thats horrible defense by any means. Cavs had 17 TO's so if they cut that down it will help.

eDush
10-19-2017, 09:56 AM
this is why i dont understand why people are in on the cavs... its like they refuse to realize they have Rose/Korver/Wade on the same team.... wade can defend some and will likely be ok come playoff time but Korver and rose are 2 of the worst defensive players in basketball... Then you add in a returning IT and you can just put green lights on the floor for the warriors/celtics and whomever else wants to score.

Rose played very well against Irving. Including excellent defense when Irving was driving to the rim. Irving is a very good shooter and some of those 3's he hit were contested. Cavs left brown open a lot as planned to make him beat them. Which he did play very well so they will change that game plan. Although Brown did choke down the stretch.

Celtics shot 40% from the field and 25% from 3... I don't think thats horrible defense by any means. Cavs had 17 TO's so if they cut that down it will help.He wasn't yesterday when he was their primary shooter or the one with the most attempts like 6 for 29 or something like that while missing some open 3s. It was worst from watching the game then the stats would indicate without big brother James on the court with him :nod:

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 10:13 AM
Disclaimer: Bernie Williams was my favorite baseball player so I'm a Yankees fan and have been mostly wathing their games, seeing partial Celtics games.

In the time I have seen though, I've been impressed with Tatum's defense and rebounding. Those were big concerns with him based on projected time at PF and I think he's held his own in those areas. Obviously a long way to go with him but it's encouraging that in some tough matchups he looks like he belongs.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 10:17 AM
Hayward's agent put out a statement last night that Gordon is out for the year. Which is smart. Let him take his time. Get back slowly, make sure everything is sound. No need to rush it; where it can be physiologically challenging for Gordon to come back and not be tentative. I think coming back in training camp where they can push him slowly and let him work those demons out is better.

BOS players keep saying he will be back which sounds like blind hope to me. If they gotta fool themselves to believing that to stay motivated then be my guest! lol

I hope they stay cautious with him. No need to rush him back. In the grand scheme of things, the extra development time for Brown/Tatum/Smart/Rozier and maybe Semi/Yabusele probably will leave them better equipped for the next few years. If Hayward is able to come back next year and those guys have the added development we'll be better off for it, though obviously that's pending how good those guys actually are and if Hayward really makes a "full" recovery.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 10:18 AM
Disclaimer: Bernie Williams was my favorite baseball player so I'm a Yankees fan and have been mostly wathing their games, seeing partial Celtics games.

In the time I have seen though, I've been impressed with Tatum's defense and rebounding. Those were big concerns with him based on projected time at PF and I think he's held his own in those areas. Obviously a long way to go with him but it's encouraging that in some tough matchups he looks like he belongs.

I think Tatum is in for a very up and down rookie year.

For both him and Brown the question isn't will they be up and down. The question is how big are the ups, how low are the lows, and how long to they last.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 10:43 AM
What are the rules with a possible injury exception? I believe they can get an $8.4M expiring contract. Would they be able to keep bird rights on that guy (maybe someone like Kyle Anderson from the Spurs)? Can he have player option that he agrees to decline (like Koufos from the Kings)?

Green_Monster
10-19-2017, 10:52 AM
hayward is in no way shape or form a good defender and yes... kyrie will get exposed.

Yes he is. And thatís why many believe heís the best all-around player on the Celtics. At absolute worst heís an above average defender.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 10:55 AM
I wouldn't say Hayward is a "stopper" but my impression has always been that he does a good job. Ideally you get a guy next to him to be the "ace" defensively like hopefully Jaylen Brown can develop into to matchup with the Lebrons and Greek Freaks of the world but Hayward isn't someone you need to "hide" on defense either. It's not a Steph Curry situation where people pretend he isn't trash because if you surround him with God level defenders he can just hide and do nothing. Hayward is actually a good defensive piece even if he isn't a guy that's going ot anchor you on that end.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 11:00 AM
Celtics fans, have fun with Kyrie. You're going to see a lot of shot-jacking and no-passing games from the guy. It seems he hasn't changed. Defense still sucks, still doesn't lead, still has no idea how to get his teammates involved.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 11:01 AM
Hayward is a good team defender who's average man to man.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 11:03 AM
What are the rules with a possible injury exception? I believe they can get an $8.4M expiring contract. Would they be able to keep bird rights on that guy (maybe someone like Kyle Anderson from the Spurs)? Can he have player option that he agrees to decline (like Koufos from the Kings)?

The rules are you can apply for roster spot hardship (if you already have 15) and you can sign a guy to fill that spot.

I don't believe that you can trade a guy into that spot.

Now if you wanted to apply for it, get it, sign Green to a 10 day, do a 2 for 1 player trade (send out 1, bring in 2) and cut Green you can do that.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 11:09 AM
I'm on the boat of Gordon's defense can't be assessed when he's playing behind the best rim protector and maybe defender in Rudy. Everyone looks significantly better defensively playing along Rudy.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-19-2017, 11:09 AM
8th seed without Hayward. Kyrie is going to get exposed.

Irving already was exposed. He made Brogdon and Delly look excellent.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 11:23 AM
Celtics fans, have fun with Kyrie. You're going to see a lot of shot-jacking and no-passing games from the guy. It seems he hasn't changed. Defense still sucks, still doesn't lead, still has no idea how to get his teammates involved.

That hasn't described him through 2 games. In fact, it's actually been frustrating how little he's handled so far. He's been primarily off-ball in most plays and he's been forcing passes into tight windows rather than shooting. Ended up with a lot of shots vs. MIL but only 17 vs. CLE (less than he took last year). It's ridiculous how much he's given way to Smart and Rozier as primary ball handlers from what I've seen. Not sure why Stevens is doing that.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 11:29 AM
That hasn't described him through 2 games. In fact, it's actually been frustrating how little he's handled so far. He's been primarily off-ball in most plays and he's been forcing passes into tight windows rather than shooting. Ended up with a lot of shots vs. MIL but only 17 vs. CLE (less than he took last year). It's ridiculous how much he's given way to Smart and Rozier as primary ball handlers from what I've seen. Not sure why Stevens is doing that.

Because Stevens knows Kyrie is going to POUND the ball. Smart is probably a better ball mover than Kyrie is. Kyrie's skillset is too playground oriented. Cavs wanted him to be a scorer for them because they realized quickly Kyrie wasn't capable of leading a team offense. Celtics know that - which is primarily why Gordon would have been their best playmaker. It's only two games but you'll see it more often. The guy hasn't changed one bit. Game 1 vs Derrick Rose, I've never seen Rose drive to the basket that many times even during his CHICAGO days.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 11:36 AM
That hasn't described him through 2 games. In fact, it's actually been frustrating how little he's handled so far. He's been primarily off-ball in most plays and he's been forcing passes into tight windows rather than shooting. Ended up with a lot of shots vs. MIL but only 17 vs. CLE (less than he took last year). It's ridiculous how much he's given way to Smart and Rozier as primary ball handlers from what I've seen. Not sure why Stevens is doing that.

No better way to make him adjust to your system than to rip the ball out of his hands.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-19-2017, 11:54 AM
I'm so glad Celtics trumped my Bucks trading for Irving.

prodigy
10-19-2017, 12:38 PM
Celtics fans, have fun with Kyrie. You're going to see a lot of shot-jacking and no-passing games from the guy. It seems he hasn't changed. Defense still sucks, still doesn't lead, still has no idea how to get his teammates involved.

Did you expect any of that to change? I think he's a great #2 guy playing with lebron James or a guy whos a big time play-maker. In that case Irving can worry about one thing, scoring. IDK what Kyrie was thinking asking for a trade. This is not a role that best suits him. Hes a dang good player. but not like this.

prodigy
10-19-2017, 12:41 PM
I've never seen Rose drive to the basket that many times even during his CHICAGO days.

I remember Bulls fans talking about how Rose never gets foul calls. I didn't think much of it of course thought it was just fans complaining. But dude its crazy the lack of respect officials give him.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 12:52 PM
I missed the beginning of Celtics vs Bucks but I saw Marcus Smart speak on the microphone in a short clip.. that should have been Kyrie. He's the FACE of the Celtics. That is what a leader does.. it's why Warriors had Curry speak during their ceremony - he's the FACE of the Warriors. Kyrie doesn't want to be the leader. He just likes the idea of it.

Green_Monster
10-19-2017, 01:19 PM
I missed the beginning of Celtics vs Bucks but I saw Marcus Smart speak on the microphone in a short clip.. that should have been Kyrie. He's the FACE of the Celtics. That is what a leader does.. it's why Warriors had Curry speak during their ceremony - he's the FACE of the Warriors. Kyrie doesn't want to be the leader. He just likes the idea of it.

Smart is the longest tenured Celtic...

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 01:46 PM
Smart is the longest tenured Celtic...

Of course he is. But that doesn't and shouldn't change anything when you have a guy like Kyrie's caliber on your team. Marcus Smart is a good player who would probably be a fifth option type guy on a championship team. Kyrie is your franchise player (him or Hayward). Kyrie should have taken the lead there. Is Smart NOT going to give Kyrie the mic?

Vee-Rex
10-19-2017, 01:51 PM
That hasn't described him through 2 games. In fact, it's actually been frustrating how little he's handled so far. He's been primarily off-ball in most plays and he's been forcing passes into tight windows rather than shooting. Ended up with a lot of shots vs. MIL but only 17 vs. CLE (less than he took last year). It's ridiculous how much he's given way to Smart and Rozier as primary ball handlers from what I've seen. Not sure why Stevens is doing that.

Kyrie has low BBIQ and slow reflexes. He absolutely cannot make the best play in a split second - he will always decide whether or not to shoot or pass before he makes his move. He doesn't react and when he tries, he's usually late on the pass. It's why you will always see him making bad passes when he should shoot and taking bad shots when he should pass. Every several games or so he'll put up 10'ish assists and look good and everyone will get excited, but it's just a result that comes from guessing right (since he doesn't react well). He's not a HORRIBLE passer but his lack of vision and anticipation (especially off the PnR) is severely lacking. This will probably never change - it's not something a coach can fix. This has been a long-held criticism of mine.

Not only that, but he doesn't look to draw fouls. This is a critical difference between he and IT - it's hard for him to change/alter momentum (which is crucial in leading a team) of a game if his scoring revolves solely around a make-or-miss style. He makes shots... GREAT, but ultimately meaningless since he doesn't contribute on defense or hustle plays. He misses shots... BAD because he'll just kill possessions and can't slow the momentum of the opponent.

All of Kyrie's criticisms are justified and real. I know it's only 2 games, but it'll take a miracle to improve Kyrie's play-making, and I don't think he'll EVER be a decent defender and most certainly won't be great at hustling. I've seen him play recklessly in his early years and that's how he gets injured.

The only way I can see Kyrie successfully leading a team is with:

1. Great coach (check)
2. Another all-star talent (Hayward injury hurts big time)
3. Defenders up and down the roster who are capable of being two-way players (remains to be seen).

Right now only #1 is a sure thing.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 03:03 PM
Kyrie has low BBIQ and slow reflexes. He absolutely cannot make the best play in a split second - he will always decide whether or not to shoot or pass before he makes his move. He doesn't react and when he tries, he's usually late on the pass. It's why you will always see him making bad passes when he should shoot and taking bad shots when he should pass. Every several games or so he'll put up 10'ish assists and look good and everyone will get excited, but it's just a result that comes from guessing right (since he doesn't react well). He's not a HORRIBLE passer but his lack of vision and anticipation (especially off the PnR) is severely lacking. This will probably never change - it's not something a coach can fix. This has been a long-held criticism of mine.

Not only that, but he doesn't look to draw fouls. This is a critical difference between he and IT - it's hard for him to change/alter momentum (which is crucial in leading a team) of a game if his scoring revolves solely around a make-or-miss style. He makes shots... GREAT, but ultimately meaningless since he doesn't contribute on defense or hustle plays. He misses shots... BAD because he'll just kill possessions and can't slow the momentum of the opponent.

All of Kyrie's criticisms are justified and real. I know it's only 2 games, but it'll take a miracle to improve Kyrie's play-making, and I don't think he'll EVER be a decent defender and most certainly won't be great at hustling. I've seen him play recklessly in his early years and that's how he gets injured.

The only way I can see Kyrie successfully leading a team is with:

1. Great coach (check)
2. Another all-star talent (Hayward injury hurts big time)
3. Defenders up and down the roster who are capable of being two-way players (remains to be seen).

Right now only #1 is a sure thing.

Yeah I agree on this flaws. He does other things exceptionally well though. If he never improves on those flaws though he's going to cap himself out at what he is now - a top 20ish player in the game. Which is great! I just don't get why people are so hung up on criticizing him for not becoming a top 5-10 player in the game. Yes, he has flaws. No one has ever argued he's a top 5-10 player except for a few crazies that no one should take seriously. There's so much criticism with what he won't be able to become and not enough appreciation for what he is. Ok fine, he has flaws that may never improve. He's still a top 20ish player in the game and people act like that's bad or not a foundational piece.

Vee-Rex
10-19-2017, 03:54 PM
Yeah I agree on this flaws. He does other things exceptionally well though. If he never improves on those flaws though he's going to cap himself out at what he is now - a top 20ish player in the game. Which is great! I just don't get why people are so hung up on criticizing him for not becoming a top 5-10 player in the game. Yes, he has flaws. No one has ever argued he's a top 5-10 player except for a few crazies that no one should take seriously. There's so much criticism with what he won't be able to become and not enough appreciation for what he is. Ok fine, he has flaws that may never improve. He's still a top 20ish player in the game and people act like that's bad or not a foundational piece.

Fully agreed.

I think part of the problem is that we have seen him go ham in the playoffs. He has outplayed Curry more than once and when you see a guy who is so talented and versatile with his scoring, it's hard not to wish he was better in other areas just so he can be a top 5-10 player.

Unfortunately too many people take that and criticize him severely. Then you see fan favorites like Dirk Nowitzki get absolutely zero criticism for their flaws.

Bostonjorge
10-19-2017, 04:12 PM
Brown, Tatum and Smart all looking great so far. Brown is getting to the rim and his a strong finisher. Tatum offensive game is looking solid. Smart is looking like one of the toughest guys in the league.

Boston is a new team with only 1 returning starter. New young team always start off slow.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 04:24 PM
Fully agreed.

I think part of the problem is that we have seen him go ham in the playoffs. He has outplayed Curry more than once and when you see a guy who is so talented and versatile with his scoring, it's hard not to wish he was better in other areas just so he can be a top 5-10 player.

Unfortunately too many people take that and criticize him severely. Then you see fan favorites like Dirk Nowitzki get absolutely zero criticism for their flaws.

Yeah I hope he taps into some potential. He's still only 25. Think about all the things said about Kyrie now... people would have said the same when we got IT at age 25, the same age Kyrie is now. And look how far along he came on the offensive end. He went from scoring 6th man to legit offensive focal point. And it didn't happen overnight - not even close. Difference is, he didn't have people rush to judgement on him after 2 games because there were no expectations on him like there are on Kyrie now.

Just watching the limited time so far he looks to be playing very differently. I've seen him start off-ball and actually get involved in the off-ball action. Getting the ball off a pick and running it. Some of the Horford handoffs IT had success with. A lot of things I don't think were in CLE's attack. He's had a couple weeks of camp and 2 games. Not to mention GH's injury totally throwing the offensive system out of whack. He was learning a new system that now needs to drastically change again because they obviously can't run the same things.

What I have seen with Kyrie is a lot of coaching young players. You can see it on FTs/TOs. You see him talking with Rozier on how not to get his shot blocked by Lebron (illustrating how to use the rim). I've seen him talk with Smart about better ways to get the ball into the post. Just little things like that.

Through 2 games, to me, he looks engaged and genuinely active in trying to adjust how he plays. Wanting to do things is the first step. Hopefully it leads to growth. And if not he can just go back to being the ISO killer that's a top 20ish player which is fine by me too lol

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 04:25 PM
Fully agreed.

I think part of the problem is that we have seen him go ham in the playoffs. He has outplayed Curry more than once and when you see a guy who is so talented and versatile with his scoring, it's hard not to wish he was better in other areas just so he can be a top 5-10 player.

Unfortunately too many people take that and criticize him severely. Then you see fan favorites like Dirk Nowitzki get absolutely zero criticism for their flaws.

Dirk is like.. 40. Any criticism towards Dirk at this point is just downright hate. He's obviously still there just to mentor guys and because he still enjoys playing. At his peak, he was great for his position. When you pound the ball the way Irving does, people just expect better results not just individually but as a team. Remember when LeBron hounded on Irving for getting zero assists? That's the type of thing that Irving still doesn't get. Barkley said it best: The difference between a good player and great player is that a great player can get his teammates shots as well. When has Kyrie done that? Five seasons in the NBA and I have still not seen him make a single player great. Dion and Kyrie had issues over possessions, no? I can't imagine how that would have gone on to be.

Green_Monster
10-19-2017, 04:49 PM
Of course he is. But that doesn't and shouldn't change anything when you have a guy like Kyrie's caliber on your team. Marcus Smart is a good player who would probably be a fifth option type guy on a championship team. Kyrie is your franchise player (him or Hayward). Kyrie should have taken the lead there. Is Smart NOT going to give Kyrie the mic?

No... Smart has been on the team for four years. Kyrie hasnít stepped foot on the court.

If you donít think Kyrie wants to be the leader, thatís fine. But reaching for ways to ďproveĒ it is kind of silly. Next weíll hear he didnít show people how to tie their shoes.

hugepatsfan
10-19-2017, 05:09 PM
Dallas continuing to start Dirk over legacy is killing them.

eh, they're just not very good comapred to the rest of the west

warfelg
10-19-2017, 05:09 PM
Dirk is like.. 40. Any criticism towards Dirk at this point is just downright hate. He's obviously still there just to mentor guys and because he still enjoys playing. At his peak, he was great for his position. When you pound the ball the way Irving does, people just expect better results not just individually but as a team. Remember when LeBron hounded on Irving for getting zero assists? That's the type of thing that Irving still doesn't get. Barkley said it best: The difference between a good player and great player is that a great player can get his teammates shots as well. When has Kyrie done that? Five seasons in the NBA and I have still not seen him make a single player great. Dion and Kyrie had issues over possessions, no? I can't imagine how that would have gone on to be.

Dallas continuing to start Dirk over legacy is killing them.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 05:10 PM
No... Smart has been on the team for four years. Kyrie hasnít stepped foot on the court.

If you donít think Kyrie wants to be the leader, thatís fine. But reaching for ways to ďproveĒ it is kind of silly. Next weíll hear he didnít show people how to tie their shoes.

Problem is, being a leader, being the face of the franchise, being the guy is part of the season Kyrie wanted out of Cleveland. He was tired of being the "little brother". This was a good chance for him to step up, even if he shared the spotlight with Smart to make a statement.

Green_Monster
10-19-2017, 05:15 PM
Problem is, being a leader, being the face of the franchise, being the guy is part of the season Kyrie wanted out of Cleveland. He was tired of being the "little brother". This was a good chance for him to step up, even if he shared the spotlight with Smart to make a statement.

And what if it was management (very likely) that said Smart should be the one speaking because heís the longest tenured Celtic? I know people like to reach when it comes to Boston sports but this is just silly.

Vee-Rex
10-19-2017, 05:38 PM
Dirk is like.. 40. Any criticism towards Dirk at this point is just downright hate. He's obviously still there just to mentor guys and because he still enjoys playing. At his peak, he was great for his position. When you pound the ball the way Irving does, people just expect better results not just individually but as a team. Remember when LeBron hounded on Irving for getting zero assists? That's the type of thing that Irving still doesn't get. Barkley said it best: The difference between a good player and great player is that a great player can get his teammates shots as well. When has Kyrie done that? Five seasons in the NBA and I have still not seen him make a single player great. Dion and Kyrie had issues over possessions, no? I can't imagine how that would have gone on to be.

I meant throughout Dirk's career. Obviously no one's gonna hate on him now.

Dirk has gotten significantly less hate than other players in his career, both pre and post championship season. And he has had flaws in his game.

You can't act like there's no bias involved. Put Dirk on a team with LeBron and watch two distinct groups split out... those that decide to love him ('Bron haters) and those that decide to hate on him ('Bron lovers). Something as meaningless as who he's playing next to can affect how others criticize him.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 05:47 PM
I meant throughout Dirk's career. Obviously no one's gonna hate on him now.

Dirk has gotten significantly less hate than other players in his career, both pre and post championship season. And he has had flaws in his game.

You can't act like there's no bias involved. Put Dirk on a team with LeBron and watch two distinct groups split out... those that decide to love him ('Bron haters) and those that decide to hate on him ('Bron lovers). Something as meaningless as who he's playing next to can affect how others criticize him.

Cause he's such a nice dude.. he's like Tim Duncan but goofy. How can you hate the guy? Of course he had flaws but did you know that Dirk was overlooked as some soft Euro-dude? He's come so far from that. He's exceeded expectations whereas Kyrie hasn't and probably won't. I just don't see any reason to hate on Dirk. He led the Mavs for quite some time and did some pretty good things for them. I also didn't see a reason to dislike Kyrie until he started behaving like a spoiled kid. Nothing against Celtics fan but I hope Kyrie fails.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 05:57 PM
eh, they're just not very good comapred to the rest of the west

They have 0 rim protection and 0 rebounding. Starting Noel at the Center would give them that.

More-Than-Most
10-19-2017, 06:07 PM
They have 0 rim protection and 0 rebounding. Starting Noel at the Center would give them that.

lol they start Dirk over him :laugh:

I hate hate hate hate that ********... Lakers and Kobe etc etc etc... Its ****ing stupid. I would be pissed if I was a current mav.

Vee-Rex
10-19-2017, 06:38 PM
lol they start Dirk over him :laugh:

I hate hate hate hate that ********... Lakers and Kobe etc etc etc... Its ****ing stupid. I would be pissed if I was a current mav.

So you'll be calling for Embiid to ride the bench after he delivers Philly a championship (or more like in Kobe's case), MVPs, and has a successful hall of fame career?

Loyalty to The Process means loyalty to the bitter end. Embiid would be ashamed of you if you wanted to bench him.

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 06:41 PM
They have 0 rim protection and 0 rebounding. Starting Noel at the Center would give them that.

It's possible they want to keep Noel protected so teams don't offer him a higher offer. I always said that he was better than Okafor and that Philly should have kept Noel. Pretty sad that Okafor turned out to be a total turd. One of the most hyped, too.

ewing
10-19-2017, 06:46 PM
It's possible they want to keep Noel protected so teams don't offer him a higher offer. I always said that he was better than Okafor and that Philly should have kept Noel. Pretty sad that Okafor turned out to be a total turd. One of the most hyped, too.

Is Okafor still on the team? Like is he going to play at all?

FlashBolt
10-19-2017, 07:09 PM
Is Okafor still on the team? Like is he going to play at all?

Haven't seen nor heard from the guy at all. it's like they did some secret wipe-out of his entire career or something. anyone know what happened to poor Okafor?

warfelg
10-19-2017, 07:24 PM
Is Okafor still on the team? Like is he going to play at all?

He is but he didnít log any minutes last night. Word is they might not even pick up his 4th year option.

warfelg
10-19-2017, 07:28 PM
Haven't seen nor heard from the guy at all. it's like they did some secret wipe-out of his entire career or something. anyone know what happened to poor Okafor?

Heís not that good? :shrug:

In the Sixers sub someone had some good stats but heís top 5 for centers in:
Time held per Possession (time the ball is in his hands), holding it longer than guys that are classic back to basket guys like Gasol, Al Jefferson, Greg Monroe
One of the worst pass in to pass out ratios, meaning he receives far more passes than he dishes out
Like tops for dribbles per touch

Heís a ball stopping Center who doesnít shoot with range much who plays little to no team defense and is below average as a man defender too.

More-Than-Most
10-19-2017, 07:36 PM
So you'll be calling for Embiid to ride the bench after he delivers Philly a championship (or more like in Kobe's case), MVPs, and has a successful hall of fame career?

Loyalty to The Process means loyalty to the bitter end. Embiid would be ashamed of you if you wanted to bench him.

no... loyalty means you play as long as you are the best at that position unless last time i checked guys are playing for free? Its a job... These guys get paid... Wtf does a rookie/2nd year player/3rd year player and a new coach owe Dirk exactly for what he did for that franchise years before? What did DLO/Etc owe Kobe? What does whomever owe lebron when that other leg finally falls?

Nobody forced Dirk to take less money... Dirk just got paid well above what he deserves CURRENTLY and that in itself is more than enough loyalty.. He should be coming off the bench period esp for a guy like Noel who is just better. Its not right to guys coming in playing their hearts out nightly to deal with a franchise feeling like they owe a player a spot just because of his name.

More-Than-Most
10-19-2017, 07:41 PM
Is Okafor still on the team? Like is he going to play at all?


Haven't seen nor heard from the guy at all. it's like they did some secret wipe-out of his entire career or something. anyone know what happened to poor Okafor?

he has worked his *** off but he is just in the wrong era honestly... His lack of rebounding and defense are exactly why i shouted from the rooftops before we drafted him on why he was going to be so very bad. Maybe he can do more with another team down the line but i just dont see it.. kudos to the guy for losing the weight and dealing with the process stuff and not throwing a tantrum or acting like a child.

Cal827
10-19-2017, 11:23 PM
I meant throughout Dirk's career. Obviously no one's gonna hate on him now.

Dirk has gotten significantly less hate than other players in his career, both pre and post championship season. And he has had flaws in his game.

You can't act like there's no bias involved. Put Dirk on a team with LeBron and watch two distinct groups split out... those that decide to love him ('Bron haters) and those that decide to hate on him ('Bron lovers). Something as meaningless as who he's playing next to can affect how others criticize him.

I not sure if I would say that. I recall Dirk getting heavily criticized, or just ignored because we all assumed he could't carry a team. For all of his offensive game, just like Irving, he was pretty bad defensively (as he was exposed by guys like Amar'e and Duncan during his years)

His prime ran along the same course of Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. Duncan was a multiple time champion during the 2000s, and Garnett was on teams that many considered terrible, so if anybody got a pass, it was him.

Dirk was blessed with an Owner who was willing to spend, and the team would both be deep and ripe with talent. But in basically every case, they lost. They blew a 2-0 series lead in the NBA finals (blowing a potential 3-0 lead late in game 3) to a team that they should've beaten, despite Wade going off. They had a team that almost won 70 games, and they ended up bowing out in the first round to the .500 Warriors. That was about the time that people stopped taking him and the Mavs seriously. They can win as many games as they want in the season, they won't be able to do anything come playoff time. He wasn't Duncan; he wasn't Garnett, he wasn't Stoudemire, all of whom were able to elevate their game when it counted (you know, assuming they didn't step off the bench during a fight :laugh2: )

It's why when Dallas actually won the title in 2011, it was an absolute shock to basically everyone. Not only did they destroy the 2 time defending champion to get to the finals, they played against a team with 3 HOFers in their prime (including a guy who might be in GOAT discussion when his career is done), the perennial choker (and company, cause his team did hide his deficiencies), were able to beat them?

Cal827
10-19-2017, 11:25 PM
lol they start Dirk over him :laugh:

I hate hate hate hate that ********... Lakers and Kobe etc etc etc... Its ****ing stupid. I would be pissed if I was a current mav.

At least they have full rights over their draft pick, and won't have to pray they don't fall during the lottery :laugh2:

Also to be fair, that team is probably as likely to make the Playoffs as the Bulls are.

prodigy
10-20-2017, 10:54 AM
Of course he is. But that doesn't and shouldn't change anything when you have a guy like Kyrie's caliber on your team. Marcus Smart is a good player who would probably be a fifth option type guy on a championship team. Kyrie is your franchise player (him or Hayward). Kyrie should have taken the lead there. Is Smart NOT going to give Kyrie the mic?

Smart shoots in the mid 30's percent wise. On a championship team he's a hustle guy off the bench that's it.

prodigy
10-20-2017, 10:57 AM
And what if it was management (very likely) that said Smart should be the one speaking because heís the longest tenured Celtic? I know people like to reach when it comes to Boston sports but this is just silly.

Smart has no business talking to anyone.

hugepatsfan
10-21-2017, 08:36 AM
Celtics desperately need Smart and Morris to get healthy. This team was really only 9 deep. Thatís kind of a necessary evil when you use cap space on a max player. You donít get all your exception so you need to fill thing in for that first year. But now Boston is without their best player which already dropped them down to 8 good players and now two more are out so down to 6. You can fill in one spot in a 10 man rotation but you canít fill in 4.

Kyrie / Rozier
Brown / Smart
Hayward / Tatum
Morris
Horford / Baynes

Those are 9 good, NBA caliber players. They could fill in a minimally used 10th out of what they had. They canít go much deeper than that until next year when they get their exceptions to sign some better backups. They really have no margin for error with injuries now.

warfelg
10-21-2017, 08:57 AM
Celtics desperately need Smart and Morris to get healthy. This team was really only 9 deep. Thatís kind of a necessary evil when you use cap space on a max player. You donít get all your exception so you need to fill thing in for that first year. But now Boston is without their best player which already dropped them down to 8 good players and now two more are out so down to 6. You can fill in one spot in a 10 man rotation but you canít fill in 4.

Kyrie / Rozier
Brown / Smart
Hayward / Tatum
Morris
Horford / Baynes

Those are 9 good, NBA caliber players. They could fill in a minimally used 10th out of what they had. They canít go much deeper than that until next year when they get their exceptions to sign some better backups. They really have no margin for error with injuries now.

Shane Larkin was an underrated move there. He's not an every game give you a bunch guy, but in bursts he can give you some good scoring.

D-Leethal
10-21-2017, 09:00 AM
Dude Dirk was crucified as a soft choke artist for years until 2011 title. He blew a 2-0 lead in the Finals in 2006, won MVP in 2007 and got completely bullied off the court like a child by the 8 seed Warriors. It took the insane 2011 performance to erase those labels. Which clearly were erased if you don't remember them at all.

D-Leethal
10-21-2017, 09:01 AM
I not sure if I would say that. I recall Dirk getting heavily criticized, or just ignored because we all assumed he could't carry a team. For all of his offensive game, just like Irving, he was pretty bad defensively (as he was exposed by guys like Amar'e and Duncan during his years)

His prime ran along the same course of Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. Duncan was a multiple time champion during the 2000s, and Garnett was on teams that many considered terrible, so if anybody got a pass, it was him.

Dirk was blessed with an Owner who was willing to spend, and the team would both be deep and ripe with talent. But in basically every case, they lost. They blew a 2-0 series lead in the NBA finals (blowing a potential 3-0 lead late in game 3) to a team that they should've beaten, despite Wade going off. They had a team that almost won 70 games, and they ended up bowing out in the first round to the .500 Warriors. That was about the time that people stopped taking him and the Mavs seriously. They can win as many games as they want in the season, they won't be able to do anything come playoff time. He wasn't Duncan; he wasn't Garnett, he wasn't Stoudemire, all of whom were able to elevate their game when it counted (you know, assuming they didn't step off the bench during a fight :laugh2: )

It's why when Dallas actually won the title in 2011, it was an absolute shock to basically everyone. Not only did they destroy the 2 time defending champion to get to the finals, they played against a team with 3 HOFers in their prime (including a guy who might be in GOAT discussion when his career is done), the perennial choker (and company, cause his team did hide his deficiencies), were able to beat them?

Maybe I should have read down the page a little further. Looks like you covered it all.

hugepatsfan
10-21-2017, 09:16 AM
Shane Larkin was an underrated move there. He's not an every game give you a bunch guy, but in bursts he can give you some good scoring.

Yeah heís looked productive through a few games. Semi O is a guy I like for his defensive versatility. Theis bring s some fine energy to the front court. If youíre mixing and matching for one of those guys to fill a 10-15 minute slot in the rotation I think thatís fine. But now we need two to play even bigger roles than that. Really hurts. Not having ourbexceptions to use cap space really hurt us building that third line of depth weíre being forced to tap into now.

eDush
10-21-2017, 09:23 AM
Is Okafor still on the team? Like is he going to play at all?


Haven't seen nor heard from the guy at all. it's like they did some secret wipe-out of his entire career or something. anyone know what happened to poor Okafor?

he has worked his *** off but he is just in the wrong era honestly... His lack of rebounding and defense are exactly why i shouted from the rooftops before we drafted him on why he was going to be so very bad. Maybe he can do more with another team down the line but i just dont see it.. kudos to the guy for losing the weight and dealing with the process stuff and not throwing a tantrum or acting like a child.That's almost like saying Duncan is in the wrong era. Okafor is like his younger brother but I put the blame on the Sixers for not using him properly as a smart team would run their offense around him as he is unstoppable in the paint :nod:

warfelg
10-21-2017, 09:29 AM
Yeah heís looked productive through a few games. Semi O is a guy I like for his defensive versatility. Theis bring s some fine energy to the front court. If youíre mixing and matching for one of those guys to fill a 10-15 minute slot in the rotation I think thatís fine. But now we need two to play even bigger roles than that. Really hurts. Not having ourbexceptions to use cap space really hurt us building that third line of depth weíre being forced to tap into now.

Wouldn't disagree. When you only had 1 starter out there we were able to make our run.

When you had at least 2 out there we struggled. (Piss poor reffing aside)

What I found interesting is when Kyrie was moving the ball and moving off ball we were defenseless against you guys. But he did have some stretches where he turned back into IsoKyrie and our defense was able to do a better job of locking him down. He needs to play with the team concept a lot more. I'm afraid he might lose you a few games out of his stubborness at times.

hugepatsfan
10-21-2017, 11:51 AM
Wouldn't disagree. When you only had 1 starter out there we were able to make our run.

When you had at least 2 out there we struggled. (Piss poor reffing aside)

What I found interesting is when Kyrie was moving the ball and moving off ball we were defenseless against you guys. But he did have some stretches where he turned back into IsoKyrie and our defense was able to do a better job of locking him down. He needs to play with the team concept a lot more. I'm afraid he might lose you a few games out of his stubborness at times.

Itís defibitely going to be an adjustment with Kyrie for stretches. Particularly with our lack of depth right now. If heís out there with Nader, Semi, Bird and Baynes for example I think I want him doing his ISO thing over involving them lol.

Itís interesting to me how theyíre using him as an off ball PG rather than an off ball scorer. They use screens to get him free off the ball while another player runs ďpointĒ and then the defense sucks in on him when he gets it. Has set up some good feeds. Hopefully they can find that perfect balance of how to use him. Heís such a good iso player that you need to utilize it but you also need to run plays for the better of the team. Itíll be fun to track the progress. Kyrie seems all the way in on it though which is good. Heís not fighting it so far, even if itís taking some time.

For all the talk about him wanting to be ďthe manĒ everything heís said and done points to the opposite. He seems to really like that whole thing with the team being more than the sum of the parts. I donít think he wants to be the man or on a team where thereís ďthe manĒ at all. He just wants to be on a team that has fun, shares the ball, makes good plays. Just gotta work out the kinks on where his game fits into that.

Heediot
10-21-2017, 11:56 AM
People hate on the Kyrie's, Kobe's and AI's more because they are deemed selfish, which is true to some extent. Dirk is deemed a team guy, so he takes less flack. It's style of play. Iso ball hog guards get a bad rep.

Heediot
10-21-2017, 12:07 PM
Cause he's such a nice dude.. he's like Tim Duncan but goofy. How can you hate the guy? Of course he had flaws but did you know that Dirk was overlooked as some soft Euro-dude? He's come so far from that. He's exceeded expectations whereas Kyrie hasn't and probably won't. I just don't see any reason to hate on Dirk. He led the Mavs for quite some time and did some pretty good things for them. I also didn't see a reason to dislike Kyrie until he started behaving like a spoiled kid. Nothing against Celtics fan but I hope Kyrie fails.

I don't see what Kyrie did was different in comparison to LeBron leaving Miami the 2nd time. Both guys bolted Championship contenders (teams that were basically automatics for the finals).

Kyrie would of been MVP any other year with his finals performance, I don't think he has under-achieved so far in his career just my opinion.

As for Dirk, he says and does the right things and doesn't draw attention to himself. His play like being soft got flack during the first decade of his career (like Pau), but your right it's hard to hate on him.

warfelg
10-21-2017, 12:10 PM
LeBron leaving Miami the 2nd time.

Wasn't aware he went to Miami a second time.

Heediot
10-21-2017, 12:15 PM
Wasn't aware he went to Miami a second time.

LOL sorry. When he left Miami. Kind of mixed up with him leaving Cleveland before and then Miami.

hugepatsfan
10-21-2017, 01:10 PM
he has worked his *** off but he is just in the wrong era honestly... His lack of rebounding and defense are exactly why i shouted from the rooftops before we drafted him on why he was going to be so very bad. Maybe he can do more with another team down the line but i just dont see it.. kudos to the guy for losing the weight and dealing with the process stuff and not throwing a tantrum or acting like a child.

Letís just get it over with and you guys give him to us with the Hayward injury exception.

warfelg
10-21-2017, 01:12 PM
Letís just get it over with and you guys give him to us with the Hayward injury exception.

Take him. Okafor and Kyrie can have pissing contests over how can pound the rock more.