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mrblisterdundee
10-12-2017, 01:37 AM
Voting will last two days. Once again, I used #NBArank (http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarank1130/nbarank-players-11-30) to create a pool of 10 players each round to vote for. DeMar DeRozan was a homer pick for the top 15 I forgot to take out last time. I dropped him and added Nikola Jokic and Damian Lillard.

1. Lebron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Kawhi Leonard
4. Stephen Curry
5. Russell Westbrook
6. James Harden
7. Chris Paul
8. Anthony Davis

Heediot
10-12-2017, 05:59 AM
I nominate Kyrie, screw all the haters. He's flawed, but you can't discount the respect he commands from defenses and coaches. Not to mention he steps up in the playoffs.

basch152
10-12-2017, 07:33 AM
I nominate Kyrie, screw all the haters. He's flawed, but you can't discount the respect he commands from defenses and coaches. Not to mention he steps up in the playoffs.


kyrie is not even remotely close to being the next best player.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 07:49 AM
kyrie is not even remotely close to being the next best player.

It's debatable about so many others already on the list as well. Kyrie has proven his playoff worth, to me that counts for a lot.

basch152
10-12-2017, 08:08 AM
It's debatable about so many others already on the list as well. Kyrie has proven his playoff worth, to me that counts for a lot.

it really isn't debatable. kyrie is good at scoring, that's it. a player only good at scoring isn't a top 10 player. he's not a good defender, average passer, doesn't make his teammates better, he's lucky if he's a top 20 player, but top 10? absolutely not.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 08:17 AM
it really isn't debatable. kyrie is good at scoring, that's it. a player only good at scoring isn't a top 10 player. he's not a good defender, average passer, doesn't make his teammates better, he's lucky if he's a top 20 player, but top 10? absolutely not.

lol I wouldn't vote for him any time soon but if lillard is on the list so should be kyrie.

what about the playoffs, why does his efficiency numbers go up yet most guards and wings outside of (Kawhi/Paul/James) take a big dip? Durant and Curry even take dips in efficiency without each other.
you can say lebron draws the defense in and makes it easier for kyrie, yet wade, bosh, love, don't have better efficiency in the playoffs playing with james. love shoots the three better in the playoffs so i'll give him that.
you guys wanna harp on his flaws, but what about what he does well. dude is clutch as ****, and coaches and defenses respect the **** out of him more then the regular season advanced stat geeks.

His name should be there as we begin debating player later on IMO. His ability to step up in the playoffs warrant that.

basch152
10-12-2017, 09:29 AM
lol I wouldn't vote for him any time soon but if lillard is on the list so should be kyrie.

what about the playoffs, why does his efficiency numbers go up yet most guards and wings outside of (Kawhi/Paul/James) take a big dip? Durant and Curry even take dips in efficiency without each other.
you can say lebron draws the defense in and makes it easier for kyrie, yet wade, bosh, love, don't have better efficiency in the playoffs playing with james. love shoots the three better in the playoffs so i'll give him that.
you guys wanna harp on his flaws, but what about what he does well. dude is clutch as ****, and coaches and defenses respect the **** out of him more then the regular season advanced stat geeks.

His name should be there as we begin debating player later on IMO. His ability to step up in the playoffs warrant that.

Again, he can score.

That's it.

he's not a top 10 player. barely top 20.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 09:37 AM
Again, he can score.

That's it.

he's not a top 10 player. barely top 20.

we'll see how he does in boston with his game, and with his chance to showcase more of his talent (which is what he wants). remember kevin love in minny was arguably the top pf according to psd, he was also a top 10 player according to psd. those advanced stats were loving his *** then too. people excuse love for being in an offense not catered to his skills, why not give kyrie that excuse? this cavs offense is built for lebron, lebron is the system.

basch152
10-12-2017, 09:47 AM
we'll see how he does in boston with his game, and with his chance to showcase more of his talent (which is what he wants). remember kevin love in minny was arguably the top pf according to psd, he was also a top 10 player according to psd. those advanced stats were loving his *** then too. people excuse love for being in an offense not catered to his skills, why not give kyrie that excuse? this cavs offense is built for lebron, lebron is the system.


because kyrie had years with and without LeBron, and he's shown the exact same thing the entire time.

he is an iso player and that has no other special skills.

It's the same reason players like arenas and starburry never went far.

They can score and look good on stat sheets, but with no other skills you aren't providing much to your team in the win department.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 09:53 AM
because kyrie had years with and without LeBron, and he's shown the exact same thing the entire time.

he is an iso player and that has no other special skills.

It's the same reason players like arenas and starburst never went far.

They can score and look good on stat sheets, but with no other skills you aren't providing much to your team in the win department.

even selfish iso players can stat pad. kobe, harden and russ aren't by nature pass first players but if given free reign and higher usage they can pad stat triple doubles.

kevin love was a nice screr and crazy rebounder in minny, why was he considefed best pf (arguably) and a top 10 player?

situation and context matters.

even if he is just a scorer, he does it better when it matters most and when defenses and coaches game plan hard to stop him in a 5-7 game series. so he has to get credit for doing something he does well even better when the stakes are raised and when the intensity on defense amplifies. why he doesn't get that respect I do not know, maybe people just don't like his the way he has played his game. think of all the wings and guards that have lesser effectiveness in terms of scoring in the playoffs. if all that is what kyrie can do, wouldn't it be easier to game plan for him then?

all young players struggle to win especially one and done and high schoolers early in their careers.

basch152
10-12-2017, 09:59 AM
even selfish iso players can stat pad. kobe, harden and russ aren't by nature pass first players but if given free reign and higher usage they can pad stat triple doubles.

kevin love was a nice screr and crazy rebounder in minny, why was he considefed best pf (arguably) and a top 10 player?

situation and context matters.

even if he is just a scorer, he does it better when it matters most and when defenses and coaches game plan hard to stop him in a 5-7 game series. so he has to get credit for doing something he does well even better when the stakes are raised and when the intensity on defense amplifies. why he doesn't get that respect I do not know, maybe people just don't like his the way he has played his game. think of all the wings and guards that have lesser effectiveness in the playoffs.

all young players struggle to win especially one and done and high schoolers early in their careers.

Again, someone who can only score is no where in the same region as players like butler or George, or green, or pretty much everyone on this list right now except maybe cousins and lilliard.

scorers are always overrated by dumbasses that don't know basketball.

there's a reason isaiah averaged near 30 a game and isn't even on the board yet.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 10:03 AM
Again, someone who can only score is no where in the same region as players like butler or George, or green, or pretty much everyone on this list right now except maybe cousins and lilliard.

scorers are always overrated by dumbasses that don't know basketball.

there's a reason isaiah averaged near 30 a game and isn't even on the board yet.

scoring is overrated, but the ability to score in the playoffs and at a more efficient clip seems to be under-rated to me.

in the playoffs the true iso greats can impact the game. Jordan, Kobe and Kyrie. All these other guys can score on volume in the regular season. But it takes a special kind of talent to maintain or increase his efficiency, especially for wings/guards when it matters most on the level of volume they take. there are chucker, but then there are chuckers that can get the shot they want even with suffocating defense s keying on them.

i do believe he needs to show a more rounded game, but sometimes the situation your in doesn't help bring out the best in you, like kevin love. give the guy more reigns to a team and let's see how he does.

I don't think he's top 10 or even 15 as of now, but people are disrespecting his ability to impact the game. that's why I am here to put out the counters.

kdspurman
10-12-2017, 10:11 AM
Votes will be public now. We had Giannis with 4 votes (+ my vote will be 5) and Draymond with 1 that i'll manually put in. Anyone voting now, it'll show their name

ewing
10-12-2017, 10:31 AM
we'll see how he does in boston with his game, and with his chance to showcase more of his talent (which is what he wants). remember kevin love in minny was arguably the top pf according to psd, he was also a top 10 player according to psd. those advanced stats were loving his *** then too. people excuse love for being in an offense not catered to his skills, why not give kyrie that excuse? this cavs offense is built for lebron, lebron is the system.


I agree, he is will asked to be a play maker in Boston and the primary ball handler. We will see how he does. I have my doubts about his abilities but he will get the chance to show i'm wrong. Unfortunately, he as been branded has on this board so it really doesn't matter what he does as far as discussion goes here

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 10:36 AM
rumor is that Kyrie was forced to be the "scorer" on the team and never really given a chance to dictate the offense as a whole. If that's true, then that explains a lot. But just watching the guy play, he's just too ISO-focused that he misses his teammates for wide open shots. It's not necessarily always a bad thing as he creates so much pressure on his defender but it just disincentivize his teammates.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 10:56 AM
when i think about it. it could be greed that kyrie forced a trade. maybe he wants to go to a team where he can snag a couple of all-nba teams and get a bigger max. if he is lucky a 5 percent chance he snags an mvp and gets that lucrative russ/curry/harden deal. you never know with these guys and their their relationship to money. i am not too sure how those max contracts are shelled out, but just putting out a theory here. he has only an nba 3rd team to his resume and that was with lebron on a winning team.

hugepatsfan
10-12-2017, 02:06 PM
when i think about it. it could be greed that kyrie forced a trade. maybe he wants to go to a team where he can snag a couple of all-nba teams and get a bigger max. if he is lucky a 5 percent chance he snags an mvp and gets that lucrative russ/curry/harden deal. you never know with these guys and their their relationship to money. i am not too sure how those max contracts are shelled out, but just putting out a theory here. he has only an nba 3rd team to his resume and that was with lebron on a winning team.

Listening to him talk and reading between the lines it feels like he requested a trade for the simple fact that he thinks Lebron is an *** hole and didn't want to spend the prime of his life playing with a guy he thought was insufferable to be around. Not basketball wise, but as a person.

tredigs
10-12-2017, 02:07 PM
AD did not earn the 8 spot, but the next 2 should be Giannis and Draymond followed by KAT (who is as good as AD at this point).

ewing
10-12-2017, 02:16 PM
AD did not earn the 8 spot, but the next 2 should be Giannis and Draymond followed by KAT (who is as good as AD at this point).

I go Giannis, Thomas, John Wall, Lillard, PG, AD, Green, than KAT

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 03:06 PM
Listening to him talk and reading between the lines it feels like he requested a trade for the simple fact that he thinks Lebron is an *** hole and didn't want to spend the prime of his life playing with a guy he thought was insufferable to be around. Not basketball wise, but as a person.

I didn't get that impression. I just think he hates the attention and power LeBron has to where it can be a bit condescending. A perfect video that illustrated that is when Kyrie was asked about how LeBron is like a father figure to the team and Kyrie looked annoyed that someone would even ask that. LeBron dictates who gets traded and who the team needs or wants and Kyrie probably felt it was too much attention towards LeBron the player and not the team as a whole. It's a fair assessment. LeBron does have too much power but at the end of the day, LeBron as a player and individual is more competent than most GM's and coaches. But playing alongside him is probably tough if you have a huge ego like Kyrie does.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 04:22 PM
rumor is that Kyrie was forced to be the "scorer" on the team and never really given a chance to dictate the offense as a whole. If that's true, then that explains a lot. But just watching the guy play, he's just too ISO-focused that he misses his teammates for wide open shots. It's not necessarily always a bad thing as he creates so much pressure on his defender but it just disincentivize his teammates.

Irving is a straight up streetballer.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 04:22 PM
Freak here for me. Then probably Green, or Towns.

ewing
10-12-2017, 05:16 PM
I agree how could he find LeBron annoying? He's a prince

JAZZNC
10-12-2017, 06:07 PM
Giannis. Definitely expecting him to continue his marked improvement.

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 06:36 PM
Freak here for me. Then probably Green, or Towns.

I have difficulty putting Towns top ten when he couldn't get his team to sniff the playoffs. A top ten player should at least get you that.

valade16
10-12-2017, 07:19 PM
I have difficulty putting Towns top ten when he couldn't get his team to sniff the playoffs. A top ten player should at least get you that.

By that metric Anthony Davis shouldn't be Top 10 either.

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 07:40 PM
By that metric Anthony Davis shouldn't be Top 10 either.

That's true. But Pelicans just didn't have a roster to compete at all. Davis did the best he could on both ends. I mean, when Tim Frazier is your 2nd best player during one point of the season, the team needs a rework. I had Anthony Davis on my fantasy roster and they would lose regardless of what he did. Minny had a fairly decent roster to work with. What's your take on if AD and Towns switched roles?

tredigs
10-12-2017, 07:53 PM
AD did far from the most he could on both ends. He has no concept of team defense and they struggle accordingly. He's also just not a guy who does a great job creating. Puts up nice stats, but certainly not top 8 when it comes to impact. KAT is right there with him without question, especially from 2017 on. Draymond, again, bringing more to the table then both.

mrblisterdundee
10-12-2017, 09:16 PM
AD did far from the most he could on both ends. He has no concept of team defense and they struggle accordingly. He's also just not a guy who does a great job creating. Puts up nice stats, but certainly not top 8 when it comes to impact. KAT is right there with him without question, especially from 2017 on. Draymond, again, bringing more to the table then both.

You can't really compare Davis, Towns and Green without taking into consideration the team. Green has been on a stacked team the entire time he's been a star. Who knows how he'd perform under the same amount of pressure as Davis and Towns, who up until recently were the only stars on their team.

tredigs
10-12-2017, 09:29 PM
You can't really compare Davis, Towns and Green without taking into consideration the team. Green has been on a stacked team the entire time he's been a star. Who knows how he'd perform under the same amount of pressure as Davis and Towns, who up until recently were the only stars on their team.

And vice versa. Towns and AD would merely be cogs and 3rd/4th options on GS, and if they did not provide ElITE man+perimerer D they would be MASSIVE detriments over what Draymond brings. And i have no reason to believe they could provide anything remotely close to his defensive presence, let alone the playmaking, let alone the leadership. Draymond, as is, clearly brings more to the table. He is an absolute monster and an integral/vital part to one if not the best team in history. Those kids aren't there.

Bostonjorge
10-12-2017, 11:05 PM
Irving then Green for me.

From #10 and on, Green can shut them all down. Either on the ball or when protecting the rim. GS also runs the Green offense.

valade16
10-12-2017, 11:13 PM
AD did far from the most he could on both ends. He has no concept of team defense and they struggle accordingly. He's also just not a guy who does a great job creating. Puts up nice stats, but certainly not top 8 when it comes to impact. KAT is right there with him without question, especially from 2017 on. Draymond, again, bringing more to the table then both.

Somebody did something in NO, they were 9th in Drtg last season.

tredigs
10-12-2017, 11:52 PM
Somebody did something in NO, they were 9th in Drtg last season.

So a bit above middling on bbref leading his 34 win team alongside a top 15-20 player in the league (who performs better than AD defensively by and large and may be a factor somewhat there). 27th on D the prior year. Overall, not a convincing argument in the least against my initial points.

Heediot
10-13-2017, 07:55 AM
AD lacks the feel for the game the subtleties that make him impact the game more. He is not a bad defender, but he is more reliant on athleticism vs. brains and iq, his command of a defense is lacking too. Reasons why a guy like Marc Gasol makes his team better on that end. Even offensively although Marc doesn't have the same gaudy numbers. He can read the defense and see the floor better vs. AD which makes his decisions far more impactful. Jokic with his vision passing and versatility is a better offensive player to me as well. Towns is in the same boat as Davis, nearly the same offensively (he will surpass him this season) but trailing defensively. These two are over-rated right now, especially Davis. If your as highly lauded and hyped as he is you can carry junk to the playoffs.

As for Dray, in a redraft from scratch he may not go top 20, as his skill-set is more of a complementary one vs. the focal point. To give him credit what he contributes on the floor as a complementary player may supersede the top 12-15 players. He is the ultimate glue guy and the most versatile defender, these things are rare so he does deserve credit.

For me it's going to be Jokic, KAT, Dray (the first two based off of the jump they make), PG, Marc, Kyrie, Butler....

ewing
10-13-2017, 08:26 AM
AD lacks the feel for the game the subtleties that make him impact the game more. He is not a bad defender, but he is more reliant on athleticism vs. brains and iq, his command of a defense is lacking too. Reasons why a guy like Marc Gasol makes his team better on that end. Even offensively although Marc doesn't have the same gaudy numbers. He can read the defense and see the floor better vs. AD which makes his decisions far more impactful. Jokic with his vision passing and versatility is a better offensive player to me as well. Towns is in the same boat as Davis, nearly the same offensively (he will surpass him this season) but trailing defensively. These two are over-rated right now, especially Davis. If your as highly lauded and hyped as he is you can carry junk to the playoffs.

As for Dray, in a redraft from scratch he may not go top 20, as his skill-set is more of a complementary one vs. the focal point. To give him credit what he contributes on the floor as a complementary player may supersede the top 12-15 players. He is the ultimate glue guy and the most versatile defender, these things are rare so he does deserve credit.

For me it's going to be Jokic, KAT, Dray (the first two based off of the jump they make), PG, Marc, Kyrie, Butler....

I agree with most of this. I havenít seen enough Jokic to be this high on him though.


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ewing
10-13-2017, 08:27 AM
Irving then Green for me.

From #10 and on, Green can shut them all down. Either on the ball or when protecting the rim. GS also runs the Green offense.

No he canít. There isnít a player in the league that shuts down everyone outside the top 10


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Heediot
10-13-2017, 08:37 AM
I agree with most of this. I havenít seen enough Jokic to be this high on him though.


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This is kind of a homer pick. I've been on the Jokic train since he's been into the league. One of the top 3 Jokic homers outside of certified Nuggets fans. Hopefully his weight loss can make him more mobile on defense, where he still needs work. I think he could be the Steph Curry of 5's. Both guys coming in with nice offense and feels for the game and ascends to the top of their positions out of nowhere. They become competent or close to average on defense, but their offensive impact overweighs that.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:01 AM
I have difficulty putting Towns top ten when he couldn't get his team to sniff the playoffs. A top ten player should at least get you that.

if Towns and Green swapped teams, is he #10 now?

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:02 AM
By that metric Anthony Davis shouldn't be Top 10 either.

is Draymond Green leading the Wolves to the playoffs last year?

mrblisterdundee
10-13-2017, 09:12 AM
And vice versa. Towns and AD would merely be cogs and 3rd/4th options on GS, and if they did not provide ElITE man+perimerer D they would be MASSIVE detriments over what Draymond brings. And i have no reason to believe they could provide anything remotely close to his defensive presence, let alone the playmaking, let alone the leadership. Draymond, as is, clearly brings more to the table. He is an absolute monster and an integral/vital part to one if not the best team in history. Those kids aren't there.

I have no reason to believe Draymond could provide the same level of defense if he had the usage rate of Davis. We've seen this time and time again. Kawhi's defense slipped when he became the primary option. So did Butler's. Draymond's would too.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:51 AM
I have no reason to believe Draymond could provide the same level of defense if he had the usage rate of Davis. We've seen this time and time again. Kawhi's defense slipped when he became the primary option. So did Butler's. Draymond's would too.

I have tried to have this convo with Tre. Draymond, you peel away his offensive role, which is so relaxed, and ask him to be the man and carry a team, we are not talking about him as an elite player.

Heediot
10-13-2017, 10:11 AM
Context and situation does matter, and there are some very solid points about Dray's effectiveness if he would have a bigger load and is more of a focal point. That's why I personally don't believe in a redraft from scratch the guy would be picked top 20. I'm sure someone would take a chance on him close after just because of his defense and iq.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 10:18 AM
I have tried to have this convo with Tre. Draymond, you peel away his offensive role, which is so relaxed, and ask him to be the man and carry a team, we are not talking about him as an elite player.
The problem is that it is a really bad argument that nobody has come close to convincing me is true. The only thing he lacks is elite scoring ability, but that's a dime a dozen in the NBA. His other assets are the definition of elite.

Heediot
10-13-2017, 10:19 AM
Cousins was a guy that was borderline top 10 last year looks like he will be borderline top 20 this year. Love as I mentioned earlier when he was in Minny was way more regarded. So situation/context/opportunity matters a lot and may influence people's views from year to year and team to team.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 10:22 AM
The problem is that it is a really bad argument that nobody has come close to convincing me is true. The only thing he lacks is elite scoring ability, but that's a dime a dozen in the NBA. His other assets are the definition of elite.

right, but I believe what I believe, so we can leave it at-we don't agree

You don't build teams with Draymond Green. You finish teams with him.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 10:23 AM
Cousins was a guy that was borderline top 10 last year looks like he will be borderline top 20 this year. Love as I mentioned earlier when he was in Minny was way more regarded. So situation/context/opportunity matters a lot and may influence people's views from year to year and team to team.

Yep. Towns will all of a sudden now have his 25/12 looked at as "winning play", and jump a bunch of spots. Just how it works.

Heediot
10-13-2017, 10:28 AM
The problem is that it is a really bad argument that nobody has come close to convincing me is true. The only thing he lacks is elite scoring ability, but that's a dime a dozen in the NBA. His other assets are the definition of elite.

I think he's a better complementary vs. many guys who are lead options/focal point in terms of impact. I think he could get away with being the main guy and having an impact if he were teamed up with a guy like McCollum or Beal as his number 2 player. 5 Draymonds vs. 5 Towns or 5 AD's? I think he loses, not saying this is the most sensible or legit argument (But they all play the same positions roughly).

Heediot
10-13-2017, 10:32 AM
right, but I believe what I believe, so we can leave it at-we don't agree

You don't build teams with Draymond Green. You finish teams with him.

That's more of the stance I would lean towards as well. I still credit him for the ways he can impact the game, galvanize a team, and leadership (which is under-looked when ranking). His impact adds up, I just don't see him as a guy that can carry a team.


Yep. Towns will all of a sudden now have his 25/12 looked at as "winning play", and jump a bunch of spots. Just how it works.

If healthy, I can see Blake Griffin becoming top 15-10 ish too.

valade16
10-13-2017, 10:37 AM
right, but I believe what I believe, so we can leave it at-we don't agree

You don't build teams with Draymond Green. You finish teams with him.

Why I was uninterested in responding and going down this rabbit hole. The Warriors would be as good or nearly as good in a different way if Dray were replaced with a handful of players.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 12:12 PM
That's more of the stance I would lean towards as well. I still credit him for the ways he can impact the game, galvanize a team, and leadership (which is under-looked when ranking). His impact adds up, I just don't see him as a guy that can carry a team.
.

to me, Draymond is Dennis Rodman, or Ben Wallace. Meaning, they hold incredible value to a talented roster that needs a player to be elite at all the small stuff. I don't think any of the three are capable of being the best player on a contending team though. The heart and soul of a contender? Oh yeah

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 12:12 PM
Why I was uninterested in responding and going down this rabbit hole. The Warriors would be as good or nearly as good in a different way if Dray were replaced with a handful of players.

Flip Green with Gobert, the Warriors are a video game. Is Gobert considered as good as Green? Nah

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 12:22 PM
Part of Green's value is his ability to basically be a PG for them too on the break which is huge with all the shooters they have on the wings, and he can also knock down the 3 which obviously is a must these days for any position. He's pretty much like a Boris Diaw type guy with elite defense. It's a unique skill set. I don't think Gobert necessarily makes them better. He adds different value, but they lose play-making and the emotional leadership that Green provides. Imo at least

I am pretty sure Klay, Durant, and Steph could keep the offense afloat. The huge weakness the Warriors have is there have nothing to strike fear defending the rim (I get the numbers, but we have seen teams bully ball them at times). I think the miniscule drop in offense is more than made up for on defense, where Gobert will impact the game more.

kdspurman
10-13-2017, 12:23 PM
Flip Green with Gobert, the Warriors are a video game. Is Gobert considered as good as Green? Nah

Part of Green's value is his ability to basically be a PG for them too on the break which is huge with all the shooters they have on the wings, and he can also knock down the 3 which obviously is a must these days for any position. He's pretty much like a Boris Diaw type guy with elite defense. It's a unique skill set. I don't think Gobert necessarily makes them better. He adds different value, but they lose play-making and the emotional leadership that Green provides. Imo at least

ewing
10-13-2017, 12:51 PM
AD is better


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valade16
10-13-2017, 01:13 PM
Part of Green's value is his ability to basically be a PG for them too on the break which is huge with all the shooters they have on the wings, and he can also knock down the 3 which obviously is a must these days for any position. He's pretty much like a Boris Diaw type guy with elite defense. It's a unique skill set. I don't think Gobert necessarily makes them better. He adds different value, but they lose play-making and the emotional leadership that Green provides. Imo at least

Would their offense take a huge hit if Dray were gone? Not really no. They would be a different team, but let's get real.

Replace Dray with Gobert, Towns, AD, or a handful of other guys they still walk through the league and win the title with ease.

Vee-Rex
10-13-2017, 01:36 PM
Would their offense take a huge hit if Dray were gone? Not really no. They would be a different team, but let's get real.

Replace Dray with Gobert, Towns, AD, or a handful of other guys they still walk through the league and win the title with ease.

Sure, but I'm not sure they're AS scary or dangerous. Towns/AD creates some redundancy since a big part of their games are on the offensive end, whereas Green gives the Warriors an element that none of those players can offer. He gives ELITE level defense (I say he's the best overall defender in the league) and the ability to provide that ELITE defense in such a fast, breakneck pace. That's what he does that is so underrated these days. It's almost unprecedented and I simply marvel at his defensive tracking numbers.

Gobert's DPOY-level defense is strictly in the half-court setting. He doesn't get up and down the floor nearly as well as Green. Remember, the Warriors have such a high-octane offense and play at D'Antoni Suns-level speeds (actually faster), but can also have the 2nd best defense in the league WHILE doing that. Green is the pillar of that. Gobert plays on a slow-paced Utah team.

I'm not saying Green is a better individual player than someone like AD. But I do think he's absolutely crucial in making the Warriors what they are - most dangerous offensive team in the league by miles yet still top 2 defense. Think about how absurd that is.

hugepatsfan
10-13-2017, 01:42 PM
I am pretty sure Klay, Durant, and Steph could keep the offense afloat. The huge weakness the Warriors have is there have nothing to strike fear defending the rim (I get the numbers, but we have seen teams bully ball them at times). I think the miniscule drop in offense is more than made up for on defense, where Gobert will impact the game more.

I think Green to Gobert is a whole **** ton more than a minuscule drop on offense. To lose someone who spaces the floor and is capable of being the PG for someone incompetent of taking on any responsibility beyond open dunks. That's pretty significant.

it's starting to feel like Gobert is the most overrated player in the NBA. Him being discussed at all in a #9 player thread is laughable.

valade16
10-13-2017, 01:43 PM
Sure, but I'm not sure they're AS scary or dangerous. Towns/AD creates some redundancy since a big part of their games are on the offensive end, whereas Green gives the Warriors an element that none of those players can offer. He gives ELITE level defense (I say he's the best overall defender in the league) and the ability to provide that ELITE defense in such a fast, breakneck pace. That's what he does that is so underrated these days. It's almost unprecedented and I simply marvel at his defensive tracking numbers.

Gobert's DPOY-level defense is strictly in the half-court setting. He doesn't get up and down the floor nearly as well as Green. Remember, the Warriors have such a high-octane offense and play at D'Antoni Suns-level speeds (actually faster), but can also have the 2nd best defense in the league WHILE doing that. Green is the pillar of that. Gobert plays on a slow-paced Utah team.

I'm not saying Green is a better individual player than someone like AD. But I do think he's absolutely crucial in making the Warriors what they are - most dangerous offensive team in the league by miles yet still top 2 defense. Think about how absurd that is.

GS would still be a top level defense if Dray were replaced with AD or Gobert or Towns IMO. Not 2nd best, but Top 10.

We can agree to disagree. I just reject outright the premise that the Warriors suddenly crash and burn without Dray. He's an immensely talented player who plays a perfect role for them. But he is not the end all be all of the Warriors. Anyone who thinks the Warriors wouldn't be insanely dangerous and the prohibitive favorites to win the title with AD instead of Dray, to me, is basketball illiterate. That's just my opinion.

valade16
10-13-2017, 01:44 PM
I think Green to Gobert is a whole **** ton more than a minuscule drop on offense. To lose someone who spaces the floor and is capable of being the PG for someone incompetent of taking on any responsibility beyond open dunks. That's pretty significant.

it's starting to feel like Gobert is the most overrated player in the NBA. Him being discussed at all in a #9 player thread is laughable.

Who cares? Are we going to sit here and say that without Draymond Green the Warriors wouldn't be the top offense in the league? It's a laughable contention. They have Curry, KD, and Klay. They would be an elite offense if Dray possessed the scoring prowess of Ricky Rubio.

hugepatsfan
10-13-2017, 01:50 PM
Who cares? Are we going to sit here and say that without Draymond Green the Warriors wouldn't be the top offense in the league? It's a laughable contention. They have Curry, KD, and Klay. They would be an elite offense if Dray possessed the scoring prowess of Ricky Rubio.

I don't disagree with that and it's not the point I was arguing. He's saying Gobert to Draymond is a small offensive drop off. I'm saying it's a huge one. The fact that GS could suffer such a huge drop off and still be the best is a testament to how loaded they are. They could lose KD and still be the best team in the NBA but that doesn't make KD a lesser individual player.

Draymond isn't the rim protector Gobert is but he's a more versatile defender so it nets out. And Green isn't a scorer but he has an elite offensive skill set reflected in how he makes others better with his floor spacing and passing. He's very easily a better overall player than Gobert even though Gobert does one thing exceptionally well while being efficient in limited usage on offense.

valade16
10-13-2017, 01:50 PM
Obviously the sample size is small however last year the Warriors without Dray did:

W vs Minn. 115-102
W vs Bklyn 117-101
W vs LAC 133-120
W vs Suns 120-111
W vs LAL 109-94

The only game they lost was to the Spurs when none of their big 4 suited up. So I'm not buying the idea that GS implodes without Dray or that they're offense would be noticeably worse without him.

valade16
10-13-2017, 01:51 PM
I don't disagree with that and it's not the point I was arguing. He's saying Gobert to Draymond is a small offensive drop off. I'm saying it's a huge one. The fact that GS could suffer such a huge drop off and still be the best is a testament to how loaded they are. They could lose KD and still be the best team in the NBA but that doesn't make KD a lesser individual player.

Draymond isn't the rim protector Gobert is but he's a more versatile defender so it nets out. And Green isn't a scorer but he has an elite offensive skill set reflected in how he makes others better with his floor spacing and passing. He's very easily a better overall player than Gobert even though Gobert does one thing exceptionally well while being efficient in limited usage on offense.

I agree Dray is a superior player to Gobert.

Heediot
10-13-2017, 02:09 PM
There's an argument to be made that if you add Gobert and start Iggy, that team could be just as effective or better. You move zaza to the bench.You let nick young and casspi fight for the backup 3 minutes.

Iggy is a very versatile player too, he can also be the glue guy. You shift KD to PF with Gobert protecting the rim.

kdspurman
10-13-2017, 02:22 PM
Would their offense take a huge hit if Dray were gone? Not really no. They would be a different team, but let's get real.

Replace Dray with Gobert, Towns, AD, or a handful of other guys they still walk through the league and win the title with ease.

I'm a big believer in fit being sometimes just as (if not more) valuable than talent/skills. Locker room fit, talent fit, etc...

That doesn't mean they wouldn't still be great with the 3 names you mentioned, because of course they would. But some of the things that make them dangerous now, they would lose. (IE, would those guys you mentioned be able to switch and guard smaller guards as effectively as Draymond does?) Maybe they make up for it in other areas, but that would be a ?. Just as whether those guys would mesh and be OK sacrificing for one another.

They'd still be the favorites, I'm not disagreeing with you. But it is possible they'd be less dangerous/versatile despite adding someone who is a better individual player.

kdspurman
10-13-2017, 02:31 PM
Obviously the sample size is small however last year the Warriors without Dray did:

W vs Minn. 115-102
W vs Bklyn 117-101
W vs LAC 133-120
W vs Suns 120-111
W vs LAL 109-94

The only game they lost was to the Spurs when none of their big 4 suited up. So I'm not buying the idea that GS implodes without Dray or that they're offense would be noticeably worse without him.

3 of those teams are pretty bad tho. They could've sat 2 or 3 guys and probably won lol

I don't think anyone is saying they implode, but they are obviously not as strong with him not playing.

ewing
10-13-2017, 02:43 PM
Who cares? Are we going to sit here and say that without Draymond Green the Warriors wouldn't be the top offense in the league? It's a laughable contention. They have Curry, KD, and Klay. They would be an elite offense if Dray possessed the scoring prowess of Ricky Rubio.

Is he really a much better scorer then Ricky? Dude is left on an island all the time bc of who his teammates are, nets 30% from 3, and people are calling him a floor spacer


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kdspurman
10-13-2017, 02:43 PM
I am pretty sure Klay, Durant, and Steph could keep the offense afloat. The huge weakness the Warriors have is there have nothing to strike fear defending the rim (I get the numbers, but we have seen teams bully ball them at times). I think the miniscule drop in offense is more than made up for on defense, where Gobert will impact the game more.

He'd impact it differently defensively. Draymond has the ability to guard other teams perimeter players too at times, and I mean that's really the priority these days.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 03:28 PM
I think Green to Gobert is a whole **** ton more than a minuscule drop on offense. To lose someone who spaces the floor and is capable of being the PG for someone incompetent of taking on any responsibility beyond open dunks. That's pretty significant.

it's starting to feel like Gobert is the most overrated player in the NBA. Him being discussed at all in a #9 player thread is laughable.

I am not saying Gobert is #9. I am saying, Green is very overrated, INDIVIDUALLY, due to situation. He might very well be a top 10 player, and it's because of the role he is suited best for is what he has been blessed to be given. He is an outstanding player, but he isn't going to drag a meh team to being a good team for instance. He is of the Rodman/Ben Wallace mold to me. You complete teams that have pieces with him, you don't build around him.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 03:30 PM
I don't disagree with that and it's not the point I was arguing. He's saying Gobert to Draymond is a small offensive drop off. I'm saying it's a huge one. The fact that GS could suffer such a huge drop off and still be the best is a testament to how loaded they are. They could lose KD and still be the best team in the NBA but that doesn't make KD a lesser individual player.

Draymond isn't the rim protector Gobert is but he's a more versatile defender so it nets out. And Green isn't a scorer but he has an elite offensive skill set reflected in how he makes others better with his floor spacing and passing. He's very easily a better overall player than Gobert even though Gobert does one thing exceptionally well while being efficient in limited usage on offense.

Does GS really drop from #1, to say...#10, if you swap the 2? You mean to tell me that a Curry, Durant, and Klay led team, even if we don't replace Green and remove him all together, won't be elite? Cmon..

Yes, you swap Green and Gobert, and the unfair advantage of their offense drops to just "we are only a lot better than you offensively now". The defense won't skip a beat, and probably gets better. GS has plenty of players that can swap on picks, they don't have a real rim protector that can stop bully ball, which is seriously their only weakness so to speak.

I am only trying to say, Green is great and all, but he is such a benefactor of his situation. No offensive workload outside keep the ball moving, and be opportunistic. Imagine if some of the top 10 players had that freedom, and little of scoring responsibility..

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 03:31 PM
He'd impact it differently defensively. Draymond has the ability to guard other teams perimeter players too at times, and I mean that's really the priority these days.

be that as it may, my point is you trade Draymond for Gobert, the Warriors still wipe the league. At least in my opinion. They are different, but still kill everyone.

valade16
10-13-2017, 03:41 PM
be that as it may, my point is you trade Draymond for Gobert, the Warriors still wipe the league. At least in my opinion. They are different, but still kill everyone.

When it comes to Dray, people don't seem to grasp that different isn't inherently worse. People also aren't really giving Steve Kerr any credit if they don't think he'd adapt his offense and defense to take advantage of whatever player you swapped Dray with.

hugepatsfan
10-13-2017, 03:48 PM
Draymond's offensive impact I think is understated because he's so unconventional. He's a "big" but he influences the game the way a passing PG would. His offensive skills aren't reflected by his own stats so much as in how he improves the play of others. Obviously the Warriors have amazing players but he makes them look that much more amazing. Having a Center than can distribute and space the floor the way he does makes those players even more effective then they'd otherwise be because it makes the game easier on them. That throws people off because it's so unconventional for a center.

The difference between him and guys like Rodman/B Wallace is that even though Draymond isn't putting up offensive numbers himself, he's impacting the performance of others positively. He's helping guys shoot higher percentages with his spacing and facilitating.

JAZZNC
10-13-2017, 04:07 PM
I think Green to Gobert is a whole **** ton more than a minuscule drop on offense. To lose someone who spaces the floor and is capable of being the PG for someone incompetent of taking on any responsibility beyond open dunks. That's pretty significant.

it's starting to feel like Gobert is the most overrated player in the NBA. Him being discussed at all in a #9 player thread is laughable.

You've said that twice now yet literally no one has mentioned him as a candidate at #9? Don't really understand your logic here bud.

FlashBolt
10-13-2017, 05:02 PM
if Towns and Green swapped teams, is he #10 now?

Minny isn't built for Green's skillset. I mean, is Green even top 10 if we take him out the Warriors? I just think KAT could have done more. It just felt like a whole bunch of empty numbers to me. I had AD on my fantasy squad like I said.. most of the games they are losing is because they just don't have the talent to compete overall.


is Draymond Green leading the Wolves to the playoffs last year?

No, but you would have to talk about how the team isn't built for Draymond at all. They're two completely different players. It's just difficult for me to put KAT top ten when his defense still needs lots of work and they didn't really achieve anything as a team despite having enough talent to at least win more games than Sacramento..

valade16
10-13-2017, 05:09 PM
Minny isn't built for Green's skillset. I mean, is Green even top 10 if we take him out the Warriors? I just think KAT could have done more. It just felt like a whole bunch of empty numbers to me. I had AD on my fantasy squad like I said.. most of the games they are losing is because they just don't have the talent to compete overall.

No, but you would have to talk about how the team isn't built for Draymond at all. They're two completely different players. It's just difficult for me to put KAT top ten when his defense still needs lots of work and they didn't really achieve anything as a team despite having enough talent to at least win more games than Sacramento..

But what team is built for Dray to be the top player on the team? Which non-playoff team last year could you have swapped their best player for Dray and they would have made the playoffs?

Denver instead of Jokic? New Orleans instead of AD? Dallas instead of Dirk? Miami instead of Whiteside? Detroit instead of Drummond? Charlotte instead of Kemba?

I legit wonder what a playoff caliber team with Dray as the best player would look like fit wise.

FlashBolt
10-13-2017, 05:12 PM
But what team is built for Dray to be the top player on the team? Which non-playoff team last year could you have swapped their best player for Dray and they would have made the playoffs?

Denver instead of Jokic? New Orleans instead of AD? Dallas instead of Dirk? Miami instead of Whiteside? Detroit instead of Drummond? Charlotte instead of Kemba?

I legit wonder what a playoff caliber team with Dray as the best player would look like fit wise.

That's why I said, is Draymond really a top ten player? Because he's such a supporting role type player who is 3/4th option but his impact playing that role is so great that we just somehow give him a top ten label. If you told me who I would build my team around, Draymond is definitely not even close to being top 10 on that list. But you can't put Draymond in Minny and expect him to lead you guys to the playoffs. He's just not that type of player.. Same with KAT. Put him in Warriors and he won't be able to have as much of an impact that Green has had for the Warriors. Shouldn't KAT lead his team to more wins than Sacramento, though? I just don't get how that doesn't happen considering Minny has a significantly better team than AD. Like I said, when Tim Frazier is your BEST teammate for a portion of the season, then there isn't much help.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 05:20 PM
Thinking the Warriors would be better off defensively with Gobert or anyone else is just... no (saying they would still be the definitive favorite is not saying much. They are a decent bit ahead right now). It would be terrible for their transition offense+defense and the only defensive advantage would be in standard half court sets against a big who likes to body up in the post (a low percentage shot as is and one that Dray himself is excellent defensively against). And ONLY against that player, as on switches its again a disadvantage. The beauty of Draymond is that he can guard AD in the post and switch right on to Jrue Holiday on the perimeter without missing a beat. EVERY other player in the NBA in his place is a downgrade defensively, and at his position on GS specifically (as a floor spacer and playmaker who can start the offense in transition or have it ran through him on the high post), he's better than nearly all offensively.

Again, his one weakness is elite scoring ability, but even there he has the ability to stretch the floor and keep a D honest, which is a major + trait to have. So no, he will not be your #1, but that has nothing to do with who you would want first on your team or his ability to be a teams best player. Comparing him to a Wallace (who was actually arguably the best player on a championship team) or Rodman is doing Draymomd's overall game a massive disservice. He's closer to a Bill Russell prototype than Dennis Rodman. I'll find scoring from any number of players. What Draymond brings is a MUCH more dynamic skillet that can effect the game in a dozen different ways at a high level on both sides of the ball against a myriad of players (ie there is no lineup that he is not at a net advantage against). That is something that is a hell of a lot harder to find than an efficient or semi efficient 20+ ppg scorer who does not do much else. The only guys clearly ahead of Green are the top 6-7 players in the league (4 of which are on 2 teams).

valade16
10-13-2017, 05:48 PM
EDIT: Not going to get sucked in this debate again.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 05:53 PM
Let's just say that the offensively dynamic incumbent DPOY rating top 8 in RPM in each of the last 3 seasons is the least shocking stat going.

valade16
10-13-2017, 05:58 PM
Let's just say that the offensively dynamic incumbent DPOY rating top 8 in RPM in each of the last 3 seasons is the least shocking stat going.

An impressive stat, the only other players to do that are LeBron James, Chris Paul and Kawhi Leonard.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 06:01 PM
An impressive stat, the only other players to do that are LeBron James, Chris Paul and Kawhi Leonard.

Indeed. Well and Curry. 1st/4th/3rd.

valade16
10-13-2017, 06:23 PM
Indeed. Well and Curry. 1st/4th/3rd.

I think I missed him in the middle year. So yes, 5 players have accomplished the feat.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 06:30 PM
I think I missed him in the middle year. So yes, 5 players have accomplished the feat.

Yep. The other 4 unquestionably considered top 8 players in the NBA (3 of the 4 the top 3 imo). But, Draymond does not score 20 a game and falls on rankings lists accordingly. True/real intangibles like being the emotional leader (unquestioned by anyone who follows the Warriors) of a GOAT team should not go understated either. He's the man, period. AD/KAT etc should simply not be rated ahead of him. They have not earned it. They have not proven it.

WaDe03
10-13-2017, 09:59 PM
It's Giannis and then either Jimmy or Wall. There's no other answer. Honestly, Jimmy is better than CP3.

tredigs
10-13-2017, 10:27 PM
It's Giannis and then either Jimmy or Wall. There's no other answer. Honestly, Jimmy is better than CP3.

Strong statements for someone bringing nothing behind them.