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View Full Version : Timberwolves sign Andrew Wiggins to 5 year, max extension ($146 million)



kobe4thewinbang
10-11-2017, 04:37 PM
Source: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/10/timberwolves-sign-andrew-wiggins-to-extension.html


The Timberwolves have officially signed fourth-year wing Andrew Wiggins to a rookie scale extension, the team confirmed today in a press release. Although the club’s announcement didn’t mention the terms of the agreement, various reports have indicated that Wiggins will get a five-year, maximum salary contract. It projects to be worth about $146.5MM, based on the latest cap estimates for 2018/19.AndrewWiggins vertical

“We’re very excited that Andrew has decided to commit his future to the Timberwolves,” head coach and president of basketball operations Tom Thibodeau said in a statement. “We feel strongly that he is just scratching the surface of the player he will become. Andrew is among the elite young talents in our league and the sky is the limit for him.”

Today’s announcement ends a saga that had unexpectedly dragged out for the last couple months. Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor publicly stated during the summer that he was willing to put a five-year, maximum salary offer on the table for Wiggins if he could meet with the former No. 1 overall pick face to face first. Taylor wanted a verbal commitment from Wiggins that he was committed to both the Wolves and to improving his game.

Although Taylor and Wiggins had that meeting, an agreement was delayed further when the 22-year-old filed paperwork to part ways with agent Bill Duffy, who had negotiated the deal. Having put the extension together, Duffy will still receive a cut of Wiggins’ new contract, but the timing of the change was unusual. It postponed the completion of the deal while Wiggins secured new representation, and ultimately the Wolves forward didn’t finalize the agreement until five days before the October 16 deadline.

Now that it’s official, Wiggins will be locked up through the 2022/23 season, with his new five-year pact going into effect next July. Currently, the NBA is projecting a $101MM salary cap for 2018/19, which would result in a starting salary of $25.25MM for Wiggins. His deal would increase by 8% annually from there.

For the Timberwolves, it’s a significant investment in Wiggins, who has developed into one of the NBA’s most dangerous scorers, but struggled on the defensive side of the ball last season, and doesn’t contribute much in other statistical categories. Wiggins increased his three-point percentage to 35.6% in 2016/17, which was easily a career high, but averaged a modest 4.0 RPG and 2.3 APG. He’ll be counted on to continue to develop further under the tutelage of offseason addition Jimmy Butler.

Taking into account Wiggins’ projected salary and Karl-Anthony Towns‘ team option, the Timberwolves now have nearly $108MM in guaranteed salary on their books for 2018/19. That figure doesn’t include various player or team options for Jamal Crawford, Shabazz Muhammad, and Tyus Jones.

Wiggins is the fourth player eligible for a rookie scale extension to agree to terms on a new deal. Joel Embiid (Sixers), Gary Harris (Nuggets), and T.J. Warren (Suns) also reached agreements with their respective teams.

Remaining extension candidates such as Rodney Hood, Marcus Smart, Jusuf Nurkic, Clint Capela, and Jabari Parker will have until the end of the day on Monday to sign deals of their own — otherwise they’ll be eligible for restricted free agency next summer.

Woof is all I can say.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 04:38 PM
"To me, by making this offer, I'm speculating that his contribution to the team will be more in the future," Minnesota Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor told The Associated Press in August, before Wiggins agreed to the deal. "We've got to be better. He can't be paid just for what he's doing today. He's got to be better."

Thoughts? Clearly a massive overpay for what he has shown so far.

europagnpilgrim
10-11-2017, 04:55 PM
Just another deal added to the 'wow' category

as with the Embiid deal as well, its clear as day the nba Is the sport to be in nowadays, especially with the supermax deal being thrown to players with 30 games of play total out of like 240+, I need to try and get on a roster for the vet min. and possibly play my way to a bogus 20-30mill deal the following year

Wiggins deal should have been around 80mill max for 5yrs and at best a 4yr deal

More-Than-Most
10-11-2017, 05:05 PM
potential gets you the money... I know he has been really underwhelming but he has the potential what can the wolves do? Its a must deal unless they planned to trade him really.

BKLYNpigeon
10-11-2017, 05:06 PM
Sure why not, He's young and Not a Finished Product. Teams like the Wolves can't be cheap if they want to contend.


Did we all say the same thing about Bradley Beals extension?

GREATNESS ONE
10-11-2017, 05:06 PM
These contracts are crazy!

More-Than-Most
10-11-2017, 05:06 PM
Sure why not, He's young and Not a Finished Product. Teams like the Wolves can't be cheap if they want to contend.


Did we all say the same thing about Bradley Beals extension?

this... I dont see what other option they had outside of trading him which they still can do. Teams pay for potential and he is still capable of being great esp now that he has butler and others to learn from.

More-Than-Most
10-11-2017, 05:07 PM
These contracts are crazy!

welcome to the new nba.

ewing
10-11-2017, 05:11 PM
well, Butler and Town are top 10 in the NBA so...

More-Than-Most
10-11-2017, 05:18 PM
I am not gonna lie... I dont know how NBA players do it... or sports people in general... If I am Towns i would be jealous as **** lol... I know he will get his but that would be a hard pill for me to swallow if i am doing what Towns does and just watched another dude on my team get that contract.

mngopher35
10-11-2017, 05:19 PM
Yup like others have said we really didn't have much of a choice here. His play is obviously not at this level but he has proven an ability to score and has potential to keep improving, hopefully on the defensive end especially.

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 05:27 PM
Yup like others have said we really didn't have much of a choice here. His play is obviously not at this level but he has proven an ability to score and has potential to keep improving, hopefully on the defensive end especially.

**** that, let him hit RFA and match. Losing him for nothing isn't a good thing, but I am not a fan of pushing away above replacement level help later on potentially because we have so much tied up in this guy.

Heediot
10-11-2017, 05:29 PM
I wasn't surprised at all. I would of been surprised if he didn't get the max.

More-Than-Most
10-11-2017, 05:30 PM
**** that, let him hit RFA and match. Losing him for nothing isn't a good thing, but I am not a fan of pushing away above replacement level help later on potentially because we have so much tied up in this guy.

even with that contract you could trade him at the drop of a dime with many teams lining up... That is why the contract isnt an issue.

IKnowHoops
10-11-2017, 05:57 PM
even with that contract you could trade him at the drop of a dime with many teams lining up... That is why the contract isnt an issue.

Bingo!

valade16
10-11-2017, 06:14 PM
Looking at his numbers, they are very interesting.

His Per 100 Possession steals have gone 1.5 1.4 and 1.4
His Per 100 Possession Assists have gone 2.9, 2.9 and 3.1
His Per 100 Possession Rebounds have gone 6.4 5.2 and 5.4
His Per 100 Possession Turnovers have gone 3.0 3.2 3.1

His FT% has gone 76% 76.1% 76%
His eFG% has gone 45.4% 48.1% 48.5%
His PER has gone 13.9 16.5 and 16.5
His TS% has gone .517 .543 and .534
His WS/48 has gone .034 .069 and .069

Outside a small uptick in efficiency beyond his rookie year he has been essentially the same player numbers wise. The only two things he seems to have measurably increased are shot attempts (19.5 to 22.9 to 26.1) and 3pt% (31% 30% to 35.6%).

I get he is only 22, but he's been a starter for 3 years straight. What more can we expect from him given his trajectory?

mngopher35
10-11-2017, 06:14 PM
**** that, let him hit RFA and match. Losing him for nothing isn't a good thing, but I am not a fan of pushing away above replacement level help later on potentially because we have so much tied up in this guy.

I mean losing him doesn't really create much cap space or anything at this point, we would still be over so can't just sign a starter. I mostly meant that we can't just let him walk so a big contract was inevitable. Like others have said I do think he is still tradeable with his scoring/potential as well.

We could have waited until RFA though for sure and it would have likely just been a 4 year max instead. I am not sure that is really worth it or not, IMO that mostly depends on how Towns would have seen it lol.

Kia Kaha
10-11-2017, 06:56 PM
Looking at his numbers, they are very interesting.

His Per 100 Possession steals have gone 1.5 1.4 and 1.4
His Per 100 Possession Assists have gone 2.9, 2.9 and 3.1
His Per 100 Possession Rebounds have gone 6.4 5.2 and 5.4
His Per 100 Possession Turnovers have gone 3.0 3.2 3.1

His FT% has gone 76% 76.1% 76%
His eFG% has gone 45.4% 48.1% 48.5%
His PER has gone 13.9 16.5 and 16.5
His TS% has gone .517 .543 and .534
His WS/48 has gone .034 .069 and .069

Outside a small uptick in efficiency beyond his rookie year he has been essentially the same player numbers wise. The only two things he seems to have measurably increased are shot attempts (19.5 to 22.9 to 26.1) and 3pt% (31% 30% to 35.6%).

I get he is only 22, but he's been a starter for 3 years straight. What more can we expect from him given his trajectory?

This is my problem with Wiggins. He is the same player he is when we drafted him. I was one of the first to jump of the Wiggins wagon because he is a scorer and that is it. Does not rebound, does not pass, does not make his teammates better, does not defend well in the team concept, not as good a defender as he should be, lacks the mindset to be a star worthy of this. He is not a max player. I would have let him hit RFA personally.

I do not want to hear the 'he is only 22' argument, or the 'look at jimmy butler/ gordon hayward etc in year 3' argument. He does not have the attitude those guys had. He floats. Always has and always will. He has not developed since he was drafted. He is what he is and we just paid huge money for that. In my opinion, not worth it.

LOb0
10-11-2017, 06:59 PM
even with that contract you could trade him at the drop of a dime with many teams lining up... That is why the contract isnt an issue.

Exactly. You had to do this deal.

tredigs
10-11-2017, 07:13 PM
He has the perfect mentor in Jimmy Butler now. We'll see if it changes his approach to the game (ISO jumpers and apathetic defense seem to be the default through season 3). As is I just have not been impressed by him as a player, but the raw ability is there for the taking and he DOES provide the #1 asset (reliability).

IndyRealist
10-11-2017, 08:15 PM
**** that, let him hit RFA and match. Losing him for nothing isn't a good thing, but I am not a fan of pushing away above replacement level help later on potentially because we have so much tied up in this guy.

I think -someone- pays him if he hits RFA. So do you want to pay 4yr, $100M for him? I wouldn't. I would have traded him this summer, probably to the Cavs or at the upcoming deadline to the Lakers or another team desperate to pay someone a lot of money. (That's not a knock, really. That's where my Pacers are, and why they traded for Oladipo.)

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 08:46 PM
Unless Wiggins develops a better three point shot and is capable of defending at an All-NBA level, this is a stupid contract.. like a whole bunch of other contracts. I mean, the guy is a high volume scorer. Doesn't do anything else. No defense, rebounding, playmaking ability.. He's the fourth best player on his own team. My thoughts? Everyone signing these contracts should pay a fee to leBron and Curry. Those two are driving the NBA to insane levels.

mngopher35
10-11-2017, 08:47 PM
Looking at his numbers, they are very interesting.

His Per 100 Possession steals have gone 1.5 1.4 and 1.4
His Per 100 Possession Assists have gone 2.9, 2.9 and 3.1
His Per 100 Possession Rebounds have gone 6.4 5.2 and 5.4
His Per 100 Possession Turnovers have gone 3.0 3.2 3.1

His FT% has gone 76% 76.1% 76%
His eFG% has gone 45.4% 48.1% 48.5%
His PER has gone 13.9 16.5 and 16.5
His TS% has gone .517 .543 and .534
His WS/48 has gone .034 .069 and .069

Outside a small uptick in efficiency beyond his rookie year he has been essentially the same player numbers wise. The only two things he seems to have measurably increased are shot attempts (19.5 to 22.9 to 26.1) and 3pt% (31% 30% to 35.6%).

I get he is only 22, but he's been a starter for 3 years straight. What more can we expect from him given his trajectory?

As you can see with Kia and Hawk above there is definitely a mix of feelings about Wiggins among wolves fans because of this. Many see him as a player that just spaces out too much and has shown little improvement in 3 years (outside volume like you mention). I am a little hopeful that a 2nd year in Thibs system and the addition of Jimmy can start to rub off on him but so far we haven't seen much/enough.

Pelton from ESPN covered this a little and compared him somewhat to Derozan, Stackhouse, Jamal Mashburn types based on Warp and scoring (thanks Hawk). Also mentioned at age 21 season he was 12th in nba history with 23.6 ppg and all others were all stars (except KAT) and hall of famers (except Cummings) so it wasn't all bad. Just kinda trying to find that realistic comparison given his scoring/age/potential yet lack of impact/improvement.

I mostly just hope he can become average or better defensively, that's probably the key for him. His decision making/handles are good enough to score but he won't be a creator for others really but defense is an area he has potential (and given he is pretty bad atm has huge room to improve). If he can be Derozan with a little better shot/defense I would take that for sure.

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 08:56 PM
As you can see with Kia and Hawk above there is definitely a mix of feelings about Wiggins among wolves fans because of this. Many see him as a player that just spaces out too much and has shown little improvement in 3 years (outside volume like you mention). I am a little hopeful that a 2nd year in Thibs system and the addition of Jimmy can start to rub off on him but so far we haven't seen much/enough.

Pelton from ESPN covered this a little and compared him somewhat to Derozan, Stackhouse, Jamal Mashburn types based on Warp and scoring (thanks Hawk). Also mentioned at age 21 season he was 12th in nba history with 23.6 ppg and all others were all stars (except KAT) and hall of famers (except Cummings) so it wasn't all bad. Just kinda trying to find that realistic comparison given his scoring/age/potential yet lack of impact/improvement.

I mostly just hope he can become average or better defensively, that's probably the key for him. His decision making/handles are good enough to score but he won't be a creator for others really but defense is an area he has potential (and given he is pretty bad atm has huge room to improve). If he can be Derozan with a little better shot/defense I would take that for sure.

If Thibs and Butler can't get Wiggins to improve his defense, no one can. I have high hopes of Minny being an elite defensive team but Towns and Wiggins need to buy in ASAP.

mngopher35
10-11-2017, 08:59 PM
If Thibs and Butler can't get Wiggins to improve his defense, no one can. I have high hopes of Minny being an elite defensive team but Towns and Wiggins need to buy in ASAP.

Haha agreed, if these guys can't get him going defensively no one can. Towns I feel a little bit better about on that end but he definitely has work to do still. I doubt we can be elite defensively by next year but if they can at least show clear progression we may get there soon after.

Hustla23
10-11-2017, 09:51 PM
If I was Minnesota, I would have packaged Wiggins for CP3 or PG.

CP3
Butler
Shabazz?
Dieng
Towns

or

Teague
Butler
PG
Dieng
Towns

Either of those teams is an easy WCF contender.

ewing
10-11-2017, 10:26 PM
If I was Minnesota, I would have packaged Wiggins for CP3 or PG.

CP3
Butler
Shabazz?
Dieng
Towns

or

Teague
Butler
PG
Dieng
Towns

Either of those teams is an easy WCF contender.

I'd trade me for MJ

Hawkeye15
10-11-2017, 10:32 PM
Looking at his numbers, they are very interesting.

His Per 100 Possession steals have gone 1.5 1.4 and 1.4
His Per 100 Possession Assists have gone 2.9, 2.9 and 3.1
His Per 100 Possession Rebounds have gone 6.4 5.2 and 5.4
His Per 100 Possession Turnovers have gone 3.0 3.2 3.1

His FT% has gone 76% 76.1% 76%
His eFG% has gone 45.4% 48.1% 48.5%
His PER has gone 13.9 16.5 and 16.5
His TS% has gone .517 .543 and .534
His WS/48 has gone .034 .069 and .069

Outside a small uptick in efficiency beyond his rookie year he has been essentially the same player numbers wise. The only two things he seems to have measurably increased are shot attempts (19.5 to 22.9 to 26.1) and 3pt% (31% 30% to 35.6%).

I get he is only 22, but he's been a starter for 3 years straight. What more can we expect from him given his trajectory?

Exactly. Sure he is 22. But by game 15 his rookie year he has been NBA leading minutes getter, and our top option. Age is no excuse. He just doesn't have it. Hopefully he can land on a DeRozan level, but he hasn't shown any improvement. Hitting the 3 better, which he has shown, is our only hope. And if he doesn't improve defensively and on the boards, we top out unless Towns becomes an MVP level player and we keep Butler.

ewing
10-11-2017, 10:39 PM
Exactly. Sure he is 22. But by game 15 his rookie year he has been NBA leading minutes getter, and our top option. Age is no excuse. He just doesn't have it. Hopefully he can land on a DeRozan level, but he hasn't shown any improvement. Hitting the 3 better, which he has shown, is our only hope. And if he doesn't improve defensively and on the boards, we top out unless Towns becomes an MVP level player and we keep Butler.

DeRozan level would be a huge win. IDK what people are talking about here and i don't love DeRozan

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 10:57 PM
It's crazy how some said he was such a good defender coming out of High School. He's practically the same player. Has he gotten any bigger? He needs to play a Klay-type game for this team to work.

FlashBolt
10-11-2017, 11:00 PM
I'm thinking that Wiggins is soft cause he's from Canada.. that has to be it, right? Not an insult to Canadians but Andrew probably grew up in the suburbs. He doesn't have the hunger that Jimmy B had.

THE MTL
10-11-2017, 11:31 PM
How are rookies even eligible for 30 mil per season extensions?

Scoots
10-12-2017, 12:17 AM
With the cap not going up as fast these contracts have to slow down eventually too.

aman_13
10-12-2017, 12:31 AM
I'm thinking that Wiggins is soft cause he's from Canada.. that has to be it, right? Not an insult to Canadians but Andrew probably grew up in the suburbs. He doesn't have the hunger that Jimmy B had.

Yeah he didn't grow up playing hockey like the rest of us :D

albfree
10-12-2017, 04:12 AM
Another team would likely have offered him the max or close to it, and the Wolves would have had to match anyway. Why not take care of the situation ahead of time if you can, rather than have it hanging over the organization and player's heads like a dark cloud for a year?

Heediot
10-12-2017, 05:48 AM
I'll take the wait and see approach. Like others have said someone would of gave him the max. He might improve. Hopefully Butler influences him on defense, but I don't know if he is a natural bulldog like Butler is. He does have the foot-speed, it's the mental part of the game that needs to be refined and enhanced. I still like his potential and he may prove the contract wrong, but I think he has a chance and in this free agency market I'd rather take a chance on that potential vs. what the blazers did in shelling out nearly 50 million per for Crabbe/Leonard/Turner.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
10-12-2017, 07:31 AM
Did the early extension pass for this rookie class?

albfree
10-12-2017, 07:45 AM
I don't think he's soft. I just think he's one dimensional. His primary focus is on scoring obviously, but at least he's made considerable progress in his 3 pt shooting. The question is, is he willing to make defense and playmaking priorities as well? If so, he can become the type of overall threat those who were high on him expected him to become.

The kid's not lacking in tools. But I am starting to question his desire to become a well rounded player. I'm speculating and projecting here, but if his focus is on his own scoring line, how well will he coexist with Butler and Towns? Will he want to play out his career as the 2nd or 3rd option? Or is he willing to contribute in other ways besides scoring with two other first options as teammates?

I thought 16/17 would be the wolves' and wiggins breakout year. Things didn't work out that way. This is still a very young team but they've acquired a veteran star and a PG who can actually shoot the basketball. This team has been disappointing the past couple of seasons so I'm not as optimistic about their prospects as I should be given their roster on paper.

I blame Rubio in large part for last season's struggles. He's one of the worst shooters in NBA history, if not the very worst. Getting rid of that albatross could ignite their offense. Keep your fingers crossed.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 09:06 AM
I think -someone- pays him if he hits RFA. So do you want to pay 4yr, $100M for him? I wouldn't. I would have traded him this summer, probably to the Cavs or at the upcoming deadline to the Lakers or another team desperate to pay someone a lot of money. (That's not a knock, really. That's where my Pacers are, and why they traded for Oladipo.)

at this point, all my whining and complaining has been realized. All along, I didn't deny he was young and talented, but I feared his 20 ppg would get him maxed out. And it has.

I can just hope he develops with Butler/Thib's in his ear, to at least respectable as a defender.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 09:10 AM
It's crazy how some said he was such a good defender coming out of High School. He's practically the same player. Has he gotten any bigger? He needs to play a Klay-type game for this team to work.

because physically he is beyond gifted. Guys like Wiggins just dominated by sheer physical talent advantage at the youth levels. That **** don't fly in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 09:11 AM
I don't think he's soft. I just think he's one dimensional. His primary focus is on scoring obviously, but at least he's made considerable progress in his 3 pt shooting. The question is, is he willing to make defense and playmaking priorities as well? If so, he can become the type of overall threat those who were high on him expected him to become.

The kid's not lacking in tools. But I am starting to question his desire to become a well rounded player. I'm speculating and projecting here, but if his focus is on his own scoring line, how well will he coexist with Butler and Towns? Will he want to play out his career as the 2nd or 3rd option? Or is he willing to contribute in other ways besides scoring with two other first options as teammates?

I thought 16/17 would be the wolves' and wiggins breakout year. Things didn't work out that way. This is still a very young team but they've acquired a veteran star and a PG who can actually shoot the basketball. This team has been disappointing the past couple of seasons so I'm not as optimistic about their prospects as I should be given their roster on paper.

I blame Rubio in large part for last season's struggles. He's one of the worst shooters in NBA history, if not the very worst. Getting rid of that albatross could ignite their offense. Keep your fingers crossed.

funny, he was our single elite defender, and our offense was light years better when he played.

TheDish87
10-12-2017, 09:14 AM
man Minny is gonna have a lot of money tied up in 3 players going forward, i think i saw around 122 mil for their 'big 3'

albfree
10-12-2017, 09:23 AM
funny, he was our single elite defender, and our offense was light years better when he played.

He was better than Kris Dunn, I will admit that.

When you have the worst shooter in the history of the nba starting at PG, you've got a problem.

Heediot
10-12-2017, 09:25 AM
man Minny is gonna have a lot of money tied up in 3 players going forward, i think i saw around 122 mil for their 'big 3'

that's how the norm is going to be with the new cba. if your a top 10 team in this league your probably paying 3 maxes and will be in the tax.

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 10:38 AM
because physically he is beyond gifted. Guys like Wiggins just dominated by sheer physical talent advantage at the youth levels. That **** don't fly in the NBA.

Yeah. That's the same issue with Zion. He's so damn talented physically but he seems to really lack an NBA-ready game that will be difficult to develop since he relies so much on it. I mean, LeBron came in and was 100% ready on all fronts as a scorer, passer, rebounder, etc., These guys just aren't being taught the same fundamentals or something.

albfree
10-12-2017, 11:17 AM
Yeah. That's the same issue with Zion. He's so damn talented physically but he seems to really lack an NBA-ready game that will be difficult to develop since he relies so much on it. I mean, LeBron came in and was 100% ready on all fronts as a scorer, passer, rebounder, etc., These guys just aren't being taught the same fundamentals or something.

I don't know who has an uglier jump shot: Zion or Lonzo. Or the worse name for that matter. I don't think Zion even has a jump shot. It's more of a shot put or a put shot than a jump shot.

He looks dominant dunking on scrawny high school kids, but I can't say whether he's the next charles barkley or the next anthony bennett. His jump shot's ugly, he's an average ball handler, average speed, but a phenomenal high school dunker.

Vinylman
10-12-2017, 11:25 AM
at this point, all my whining and complaining has been realized. All along, I didn't deny he was young and talented, but I feared his 20 ppg would get him maxed out. And it has.

I can just hope he develops with Butler/Thib's in his ear, to at least respectable as a defender.

yep ... its all you can hope for....

hopefully during the next CBA they can get another year of team control added so there is another year of evaluation before these teams have to commit so much future cap... it would also be smart to limit rookie extensions to 4 years rather than 5

So many vets playing for peanuts while all these kids are getting paid ... it really is ****ing ridiculous

threeforthewin
10-12-2017, 11:27 AM
I think the Wolves and many teams are just so scared of losing their franchise players for basically nothing, that they're willing to throw a max extension their way just for the security. I don't know if Wiggins has really proven himself to be a max player, but there you go.

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 03:09 PM
I think the Wolves and many teams are just so scared of losing their franchise players for basically nothing, that they're willing to throw a max extension their way just for the security. I don't know if Wiggins has really proven himself to be a max player, but there you go.

I'm guessing Wolves just has confidence Wiggins can develop a better three point shot and play great defense (like a Klay-sorta guy) and that the market will take notice and offer him something enticing. Not saying he will but Wolves could have always matched. Knowing that, they probably expect he'll have an excellent season. My only issue with this is if this doesn't work out, it'll be interesting to see how Wolves find a way to pay Towns and Butler in the future. Is Wiggins capable of doing something other than jacking up shots?

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 04:10 PM
He was better than Kris Dunn, I will admit that.

When you have the worst shooter in the history of the nba starting at PG, you've got a problem.

except Rubio was our 2nd best player. Easily. Elite defender, passer, rebounder for his position, and the offense was exponentially better with him.

I get Thib's wants a better scoring PG now, since Butler/Wiggins/Towns will control the ball a ton, but we will miss Rubio, I guarantee it.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 04:11 PM
Yeah. That's the same issue with Zion. He's so damn talented physically but he seems to really lack an NBA-ready game that will be difficult to develop since he relies so much on it. I mean, LeBron came in and was 100% ready on all fronts as a scorer, passer, rebounder, etc., These guys just aren't being taught the same fundamentals or something.

well, LeBron is a once every 50 year talent. Wiggins simply doesn't have it mentally imo.

Hawkeye15
10-12-2017, 04:14 PM
I'm guessing Wolves just has confidence Wiggins can develop a better three point shot and play great defense (like a Klay-sorta guy) and that the market will take notice and offer him something enticing. Not saying he will but Wolves could have always matched. Knowing that, they probably expect he'll have an excellent season. My only issue with this is if this doesn't work out, it'll be interesting to see how Wolves find a way to pay Towns and Butler in the future. Is Wiggins capable of doing something other than jacking up shots?

yes and yes. I am done defending Wiggins after this, but he did improve as a 3 point shooter, especially catch and shoot (40% last year). With Butler taking away a ton of Wiggin's mindless usage, hopefully more of his shots are off the catch. Defensively, just become butt reaming average dude, cmon. I am fine watching 5'11" guards outrebound him nightly if he can stop lazily closing out on shooters and actually land a rotation once in a blue moon..

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 06:39 PM
yes and yes. I am done defending Wiggins after this, but he did improve as a 3 point shooter, especially catch and shoot (40% last year). With Butler taking away a ton of Wiggin's mindless usage, hopefully more of his shots are off the catch. Defensively, just become butt reaming average dude, cmon. I am fine watching 5'11" guards outrebound him nightly if he can stop lazily closing out on shooters and actually land a rotation once in a blue moon..

Ditto on the defense. I was watching some random video on YouTube and the guy wouldn't even chase after a guy who was BEHIND him on a fastbreak. I'm not even sure you can teach that kind of "defense." He literally just let the guy run past him. No getting into position for a charge, no chasing, no hands to deflect it.. nothing. I'm sure Butler will ring his ears though. Last year, zero veteran presence. I think they need to get KG in there to pounce at the guy. Or maybe playing with Taj gets the guy motivated. Is it me or does Wiggins seem bored out there?

FlashBolt
10-12-2017, 06:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR2ojXbLZlA

Damn, Wiggins is way too feminine to play tough defense.. Someone needs to bully him during practice to get him motivated.

ellington19
10-12-2017, 07:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR2ojXbLZlA

Damn, Wiggins is way too feminine to play tough defense.. Someone needs to bully him during practice to get him motivated.

I still think we would have been better off with a shooter or 3&D guy.

But I can also understand the predicament our FO was in.

We'll see how it all works out. I do know one thing though - heads are going to roll if we miss the playoffs this season.

albfree
10-12-2017, 08:04 PM
except Rubio was our 2nd best player. Easily. Elite defender, passer, rebounder for his position, and the offense was exponentially better with him.

I get Thib's wants a better scoring PG now, since Butler/Wiggins/Towns will control the ball a ton, but we will miss Rubio, I guarantee it.

Man you really drinking that KoolAid.

The only way you can claim that Rubio is an asset is in comparison to Dunn, quite literally one of the worst PG's in the game.

Rubio is without question one of the worst if not the worst shooter in the history of the game. This allows defenses to sag and double at will. The Wolves are constantly playing 4 on 5 on offense. Look for the Wolves' offense to open now that they have a PG who can actually score a little bit. Their PG doesn't have to be elite; being a better shooter and scorer than the worst the game has ever seen will suffice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N876-KBigo

IKnowHoops
10-13-2017, 02:52 AM
Man you really drinking that KoolAid.

The only way you can claim that Rubio is an asset is in comparison to Dunn, quite literally one of the worst PG's in the game.

Rubio is without question one of the worst if not the worst shooter in the history of the game. This allows defenses to sag and double at will. The Wolves are constantly playing 4 on 5 on offense. Look for the Wolves' offense to open now that they have a PG who can actually score a little bit. Their PG doesn't have to be elite; being a better shooter and scorer than the worst the game has ever seen will suffice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N876-KBigo

Lol

albfree
10-13-2017, 03:03 AM
Lol

Brilliant argument.

Aust
10-13-2017, 05:42 AM
All potential based. I don't think his value is as high as people think. I remember reading somewhere that a lot of GMs are not a fan of that contract or Wiggins(IIRC). I don't think they would be lining up to trade for him unless he keeps developing in those other areas he needs to improve in.

eDush
10-13-2017, 05:54 AM
Looking at his numbers, they are very interesting.

His Per 100 Possession steals have gone 1.5 1.4 and 1.4
His Per 100 Possession Assists have gone 2.9, 2.9 and 3.1
His Per 100 Possession Rebounds have gone 6.4 5.2 and 5.4
His Per 100 Possession Turnovers have gone 3.0 3.2 3.1

His FT% has gone 76% 76.1% 76%
His eFG% has gone 45.4% 48.1% 48.5%
His PER has gone 13.9 16.5 and 16.5
His TS% has gone .517 .543 and .534
His WS/48 has gone .034 .069 and .069

Outside a small uptick in efficiency beyond his rookie year he has been essentially the same player numbers wise. The only two things he seems to have measurably increased are shot attempts (19.5 to 22.9 to 26.1) and 3pt% (31% 30% to 35.6%).

I get he is only 22, but he's been a starter for 3 years straight. What more can we expect from him given his trajectory?

This is my problem with Wiggins. He is the same player he is when we drafted him. I was one of the first to jump of the Wiggins wagon because he is a scorer and that is it. Does not rebound, does not pass, does not make his teammates better, does not defend well in the team concept, not as good a defender as he should be, lacks the mindset to be a star worthy of this. He is not a max player. I would have let him hit RFA personally.

I do not want to hear the 'he is only 22' argument, or the 'look at jimmy butler/ gordon hayward etc in year 3' argument. He does not have the attitude those guys had. He floats. Always has and always will. He has not developed since he was drafted. He is what he is and we just paid huge money for that. In my opinion, not worth it.He's scoring has increased every season and that is the most valuable stat for a 3 and D scorer which is what he is. Sure he's not a good passer but he doesn't have to be. I would blame the coaching staff for not helping him improve faster perhaps but his trajectory as a player based on his age is heading up. He's just not the superstar you were hoping he be.... I would love to have him on my team :nod:

eDush
10-13-2017, 06:01 AM
Man you really drinking that KoolAid.

The only way you can claim that Rubio is an asset is in comparison to Dunn, quite literally one of the worst PG's in the game.

Rubio is without question one of the worst if not the worst shooter in the history of the game. This allows defenses to sag and double at will. The Wolves are constantly playing 4 on 5 on offense. Look for the Wolves' offense to open now that they have a PG who can actually score a little bit. Their PG doesn't have to be elite; being a better shooter and scorer than the worst the game has ever seen will suffice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N876-KBigo

LolNow that's one player who never improved on his scoring unlike Wiggins but actually gotten worse. GH was a much better point guard then this guy in Utah now whom they will regret. Mommy should improve now with Rubio out of the picture. Towns Wiggins and Butler are now the face of the franchise going forward :nod:

albfree
10-13-2017, 07:50 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPllwTomczw

It looks like it was Gordon Hayward who requested Rubio. Too bad Hayward left despite the acquisition.

For Minny, it's addition by subtraction. They were constantly hamstrung playing 4 vs 5 on offense. You can't have the worst shooter in nba history in your starting lineup and expect excellent results.

Jeff Teague is a solid upgrade who will at the very least open up the floor a little bit for their primary scorers.

ewing
10-13-2017, 08:31 AM
except Rubio was our 2nd best player. Easily. Elite defender, passer, rebounder for his position, and the offense was exponentially better with him.

I get Thib's wants a better scoring PG now, since Butler/Wiggins/Towns will control the ball a ton, but we will miss Rubio, I guarantee it.

Teague is a much better player


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IKnowHoops
10-13-2017, 09:21 AM
Brilliant argument.

I agree with you

IKnowHoops
10-13-2017, 09:28 AM
I don't think MN will miss Rubio at all. Whatever passing he brought, being the worst scorer in NBA history negates all of that. And like others have said, Rubio is the epitome of not improving. The needle has barely moved on him since he's entered the league. The problem with Rubio is that if he isn't initiating offense for the team, then he's absolutely worthless and it's like playing 4 on 5 cause Rubio isn't going to be finishing plays. Offense has looked more free flowing and better than ever this year.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:44 AM
Man you really drinking that KoolAid.

The only way you can claim that Rubio is an asset is in comparison to Dunn, quite literally one of the worst PG's in the game.

Rubio is without question one of the worst if not the worst shooter in the history of the game. This allows defenses to sag and double at will. The Wolves are constantly playing 4 on 5 on offense. Look for the Wolves' offense to open now that they have a PG who can actually score a little bit. Their PG doesn't have to be elite; being a better shooter and scorer than the worst the game has ever seen will suffice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N876-KBigo

nobody is denying Rubio can't shoot. But he is absolutely elite defensively, rebounding the ball, the best passer in the game, and his teams, since age 16, are far better with him on the court. The guy just plays winning basketball. I always had reservations about when we get good, will he be forced into uncomfortable situations in a 7 game series...but we will never know now. Rubio is absolutely a top 10-12 PG in the NBA.

But, I really don't care to defend him more than I already have in this thread. He is an enigma, overrated by some, underrated by most.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:47 AM
He's scoring has increased every season and that is the most valuable stat for a 3 and D scorer which is what he is. Sure he's not a good passer but he doesn't have to be. I would blame the coaching staff for not helping him improve faster perhaps but his trajectory as a player based on his age is heading up. He's just not the superstar you were hoping he be.... I would love to have him on my team :nod:

he hasn't improved. At all. Look at his advanced stat line. It's like groundhog day.

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:48 AM
Teague is a much better player


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I disagree. He might be better for what Thib's wants out of a PG offensively, but we will suffer defensively, and our guys can kiss the multiple opportunities for layup attempts that came from nothing goodbye. They better get used to PG's getting into the lane nightly..

Hawkeye15
10-13-2017, 09:49 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPllwTomczw

It looks like it was Gordon Hayward who requested Rubio. Too bad Hayward left despite the acquisition.

For Minny, it's addition by subtraction. They were constantly hamstrung playing 4 vs 5 on offense. You can't have the worst shooter in nba history in your starting lineup and expect excellent results.

Jeff Teague is a solid upgrade who will at the very least open up the floor a little bit for their primary scorers.

no offense, but you have no clue what you are talking about. Explain why the Wolves were exponentially better with Rubio on the floor during his tenure offensively.

albfree
10-13-2017, 10:07 AM
nobody is denying Rubio can't shoot. But he is absolutely elite defensively, rebounding the ball, the best passer in the game, and his teams, since age 16, are far better with him on the court. The guy just plays winning basketball. I always had reservations about when we get good, will he be forced into uncomfortable situations in a 7 game series...but we will never know now. Rubio is absolutely a top 10-12 PG in the NBA.

But, I really don't care to defend him more than I already have in this thread. He is an enigma, overrated by some, underrated by most.

This is an odd statement considering the fact that Rubio has never been on an nba team that's won more than 40 games. If Rubio is a top 12 PG (in the NBA) he's towards the lower end of that list. It wouldn't be difficult to list at least 15, maybe 20 PG's who are better however. Top 12 is very generous.

Rubio has been paired with some serious talent in Minny: KLove/Peko/Kmart before, then KAT/Wiggins/Lavine. Not exactly bottom tier talent.

The Wolves couldn't crack .500 with Rubio much less make the playoffs. It makes sense to change things up. Teague is a good player and he is certainly a superior scorer. You don't need Teague to be a super rebounder or defender. JB is already elite defensively and KAT and Wiggins have superior potential if they choose to work at the defensive end.

I was once high on Rubio myself, but his inability to score and the problems he creates for his teammates offensively as a result of his defender sagging left me a bit disillusioned. I'm glad he's gone and am ready for a different look from the Wolves.

zn23
10-13-2017, 11:23 AM
5 years, that's a lot of bricks...

Jamiecballer
10-13-2017, 01:55 PM
I'm thinking that Wiggins is soft cause he's from Canada.. that has to be it, right? Not an insult to Canadians but Andrew probably grew up in the suburbs. He doesn't have the hunger that Jimmy B had.Lmao

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ewing
10-13-2017, 02:36 PM
This is an odd statement considering the fact that Rubio has never been on an nba team that's won more than 40 games. If Rubio is a top 12 PG (in the NBA) he's towards the lower end of that list. It wouldn't be difficult to list at least 15, maybe 20 PG's who are better however. Top 12 is very generous.

Rubio has been paired with some serious talent in Minny: KLove/Peko/Kmart before, then KAT/Wiggins/Lavine. Not exactly bottom tier talent.

The Wolves couldn't crack .500 with Rubio much less make the playoffs. It makes sense to change things up. Teague is a good player and he is certainly a superior scorer. You don't need Teague to be a super rebounder or defender. JB is already elite defensively and KAT and Wiggins have superior potential if they choose to work at the defensive end.

I was once high on Rubio myself, but his inability to score and the problems he creates for his teammates offensively as a result of his defender sagging left me a bit disillusioned. I'm glad he's gone and am ready for a different look from the Wolves.

Agreed 100 with your last paragraph. I liked him coming in but You cant have the dude with the ball not even occupy a defender


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albfree
10-13-2017, 07:46 PM
no offense, but you have no clue what you are talking about. Explain why the Wolves were exponentially better with Rubio on the floor during his tenure offensively.

Because Kris Dunn was exponentially worse.

Now explain why the "elite" Rubio couldn't sniff the playoffs much less .500 with a lineup of Rubio/Klove (a top 5 player)/Peko/Kmart or Rubio/KAT/Wiggins/Lavine. Rubio + 3 elite scorers (2 different versions) + Thibs in the second iteration and Rubio can't even get to 40 wins.

He doesnt just play winning basketball, he's done nothing but played losing basketball for the entirety of his nba career. He can't shoot and he can't finish.

The Wolves need a different look. So did Rubio. Moving Rubio was the right move.

ewing
10-14-2017, 06:19 PM
I disagree. He might be better for what Thib's wants out of a PG offensively, but we will suffer defensively, and our guys can kiss the multiple opportunities for layup attempts that came from nothing goodbye. They better get used to PG's getting into the lane nightly..

What Thib wanted was a better PG and he got one

ewing
10-14-2017, 06:21 PM
no offense, but you have no clue what you are talking about. Explain why the Wolves were exponentially better with Rubio on the floor during his tenure offensively.

he played with more first unit players who were better offensive players. you got to give up the ghost on this kid.

Chronz
10-14-2017, 06:40 PM
You gotta gamble on him right. Don't they have rfa left tho?

Imagine they repeat the kg-marbury mistake but inversely?....

Hawkeye15
10-16-2017, 09:33 AM
You gotta gamble on him right. Don't they have rfa left tho?

Imagine they repeat the kg-marbury mistake but inversely?....

what do you mean?